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[Diggles]

But can it use Slam?

[pickled_heretic]

if a game can be / is automated, that's not the fault of the people who make the macros/bots/etc, it's the fault of the developers for making a crappy/boring game that is easy to play. ideally, games would require heuristic decision-making that a computer would never be able to emulate well.

edit: now that i read the OPs post more carefully, i'd say that i agree completely, these sorts of things create a lot of heuristic decisionmaking that gives incentives to play skillfully.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

if a game can be / is automated, that's not the fault of the people who make the macros/bots/etc, it's the fault of the developers for making a crappy/boring game that is easy to play. ideally, games would require heuristic decision-making that a computer would never be able to emulate well.

edit: now that i read the OPs post more carefully, i'd say that i agree completely, these sorts of things create a lot of heuristic decisionmaking that gives incentives to play skillfully.

I think you got the important parts.

Exploiting unique situations is the hallmark of this kind of gameplay. There's no ONE answer. Having good armor and good weapons, which are basically STATS, helps a lot, but it should not be the sole reason you win a fight!!! It shouldn't be so important. It should be about your choices during the fight. Maybe aim for a balance of 60/40; choices/stats.

You're right. Simple games are easier to make bots for.

My reference(s) to kick (the button) was really a jab at what games consider to be involved gameplay.

(involved = at your keyboard)

But like I already stated, putting attention on aggro management, spawn placement, pathing, buffs, debuffs and so on, is a big part of the involved gameplay. Those things are not explicitly a part of combat, but they're integral to your success in combat. Maybe /autoattack (combat, in general) needs to be simple so that we can focus on those other things. But the thing is, not all members of a group need worry about the larger concerns. A warrior, for example, shouldn't be worrying too much about pathing and buffs and debuffs and other side-issues; casters and cc people should be. A warrior should be consumed by his opponent(s). My argument was that combat itself, in its current state, is not very impressive.

But having to leanr more things to play would be exhausting for noobs. But it could come in phases. As you level up or change scenery, you meet more kinds of situations that challenge your skill set. It shouldn't happen all at once.

I think it's easy to be too cautious. There's a tendency to think players are dumb so we must make dumb games. It stems from this idea that we should code programs for the lowest common denominator so no one is excluded. For example, if I click the delete button - after changing something - then a window pops up that asks me "Do you really want to delete this?" This is built-in protection against users who mistakenly click it. But it can easily go too far. What if I accidentally click Yes but intended to click No? Maybe the delete button shouldn't even be offered? Heh, it could be too dangerous. Maybe it should be hidden? Or maybe only certain people can use delete? All sorts of questions pop into your head when you're making a program. It's all magnified 3x when a manager expects there to be no complaints.

So my argument here is that games are too conservative and bloated by worrying. Especially the marketing heads. But maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe MOST people are too inattentive for this. They WANT simplicity.

I myself have pointed to necromancers and other feign deathers to suggest that they're great classes to play for busy people. Got yourself in a pinch? Then click Feign Death. Now you can take care of the baby, or wash the dishes, or go to the shop, or whatever. If you don't got much time, the necro offers you a lot of bang for your buck. You don't have to run around looking for a group. It's very convenient and probably one of my favorite classes. They don't just feign death, either. They can do so much more. They keep you busy. They have power, but it's diverse.

In fact, I think all classes could use feign death. I know real life can get bad quick. Games should allow us to pause them, but they shouldn't at the same time allow us to play them AND do a dozen other things. My opinion.

[aresprophet]

Vanguard had a pretty neat weakness-exploiting system. It also had finishing attacks (crits triggered other big spells/moves), bonuses for doing skill combos (on Rangers anyway), and other stuff that really mixed up how you used your skills. Sorcs were awesome fun for being a stand-there-and-nuke class (Chaos Volley was ludicrous when it worked and hilarious when it didn't). Rogues had all kinds of ways to chain skills together too.

Some of the best class design I've seen in an MMO. Too bad about the rest of the game though.

[Galacticus]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you got the important parts.

Exploiting unique situations is the hallmark of this kind of gameplay. There's no ONE answer. Having good armor and good weapons, which are basically STATS, helps a lot, but it should not be the sole reason you win a fight!!! It shouldn't be so important. It should be about your choices during the fight. Maybe aim for a balance of 60/40; choices/stats.

You're right. Simple games are easier to make bots for.

My reference(s) to kick (the button) was really a jab at what games consider to be involved gameplay.

(involved = at your keyboard)

But like I already stated, putting attention on aggro management, spawn placement, pathing, buffs, debuffs and so on, is a big part of the involved gameplay. Those things are not explicitly a part of combat, but they're integral to your success in combat. Maybe /autoattack (combat, in general) needs to be simple so that we can focus on those other things. But the thing is, not all members of a group need worry about the larger concerns. A warrior, for example, shouldn't be worrying too much about pathing and buffs and debuffs and other side-issues; casters and cc people should be. A warrior should be consumed by his opponent(s). My argument was that combat itself, in its current state, is not very impressive.

But having to leanr more things to play would be exhausting for noobs. But it could come in phases. As you level up or change scenery, you meet more kinds of situations that challenge your skill set. It shouldn't happen all at once.

I think it's easy to be too cautious. There's a tendency to think players are dumb so we must make dumb games. It stems from this idea that we should code programs for the lowest common denominator so no one is excluded. For example, if I click the delete button - after changing something - then a window pops up that asks me "Do you really want to delete this?" This is built-in protection against users who mistakenly click it. But it can easily go too far. What if I accidentally click Yes but intended to click No? Maybe the delete button shouldn't even be offered? Heh, it could be too dangerous. Maybe it should be hidden? Or maybe only certain people can use delete? All sorts of questions pop into your head when you're making a program. It's all magnified 3x when a manager expects there to be no complaints.

So my argument here is that games are too conservative and bloated by worrying. Especially the marketing heads. But maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe MOST people are too inattentive for this. They WANT simplicity.

I myself have pointed to necromancers and other feign deathers to suggest that they're great classes to play for busy people. Got yourself in a pinch? Then click Feign Death. Now you can take care of the baby, or wash the dishes, or go to the shop, or whatever. If you don't got much time, the necro offers you a lot of bang for your buck. You don't have to run around looking for a group. It's very convenient and probably one of my favorite classes. They don't just feign death, either. They can do so much more. They keep you busy. They have power, but it's diverse.

In fact, I think all classes could use feign death. I know real life can get bad quick. Games should allow us to pause them, but they shouldn't at the same time allow us to play them AND do a dozen other things. My opinion.

If we are talking specifically about everquest, then take it for what it is. The first 3d first person mmo that ever existed. It was a huge concept that more then 30 people could be playing one game on one server at one time.

With a game like that, something no one had ever played before, it was a smart move to make it simple on the user end.

You are expected to spend countless hours killing monsters. You want to be pressing taunt and kick or a complicated set of combos of buttons for hours upon hours upon hours.

The game is very complex, but not to the average user. There is a lot of math that goes into the writing of the engine and how the many different systems work well together and then sync up across hundreds of computers in a time where people were using dial up in the majority.

If we are talking about games today, the industries are focused at getting more people gaming, more people buying their products = more money for them for more development and to buy their kids X-mas presents. Not the same people who buy call of duty every time a new one comes out, but the people who didn't buy it last time it came out. They do this by appealing to a wider audience by including what that wider audience wants, more simplicity.

Game developers aren't stupid.

Take a wide look at the games that are out there. Look at the ones that make money. That's what investors want to invest in, the things that make money.

Complex ideas and great games are made by companies that have two things.

Time and Money.

Time is the biggest issue. Why take 5 years to make a really good game that makes 5 billion dollars , when you can just put out an average one every year for 3 billion and make 15 billion in those 5 years.

It's the same reason B movies are made, its the same reason we see so much garbage in movie theaters and on television.

That's how the world works.