Say 'NO' to VZ/TZ rehash

[tmoneynegro]

Repost from other thread:

Why altering crowd control spells from EQ live only affects the game in negative ways:


1) Forced Grouping: Real Everquest PvP was not a forced grouping game. By having all this CC land easily, you make it far too easy for people to get in groups and zerg rush down solo players or smaller numbers of people. Your theology of balance is inherently "pro-zerg rush".

2) Hybrid vs Pure Melee balance: In real EQ PvP, these classes were balanced relatively well against each other in eras like Kunark. The balance probably tipped towards hybrids but it was still close. Letting crowd control land easily dramatically increases the power of hybrids resulting in major imbalance.

3) Channeling Skill: Pure melee do not receive the channeling skill, they can't pumice anything while being hit. Making crowd control land easily dramatically nerfs pure melee while being much less of a nerf to hybrids and other caster classes.

4) Caster vs Melee survivability: When a zerg of people runs at you spamming crowd control spells and you know you're gonna die if you stick around, the moment root lands, the caster hits the gate button or shadowstep/gate and escapes before they reach him a lot of the time. Melee on the other hand will try to pumice, get rooted again soon as it comes off, and gang banged by the zerg for a free kill. This is obviously a huge imbalance in survivability, especially when tank classes are supposed to have high survivability.

5) Dumbing down the game: Crowd control spells landing easily makes it so melee classes are always attacking stationary targets. This removes all the skill from playing a melee class completely. You're no longer jousting anyone, you just stand next to them with auto-attack on. It's inherently dumbing down the game and removing skilled aspects.

6) Another unintended upgrade to hybrids: This is something only someone who played a hybrid on TZVZ would understand. He made CC land easily but also made it last a short duration. When a caster roots you and you're fighting 1vs1, you already know it's going to drop relatively soon. The pure melee really has no choice except to pumice it since he can't do anything else. For the hybrid on the other hand, a lot of the time it's actually more effective to completely ignore it and heal yourself/lifetap or root them back instead because you're gonna be able to move soon anyway. The end result is that melees have to pumice themselves and hybrids get to ignore root, not pumice themselves, and also do useful things while the root is on them (casting) during 1vs1's.

7) 1vs1's where each person casts root 50 times: Example of how ridiculous this system is: A paladin or ranger sees a caster class and a 1vs1 starts. Since being able to immobilize your target is such a powerful spell, the hybrid is gonna spam it. Once the caster sees the hybrid chain rooting him in between swings, he realizes his only hope is to root the hybrid back and hopefully resist a root so he can get some space between each other. This goes on over and over and each player is basically perma rooted the entire fight while occasionally popping out and running a few steps. Does this actually sound fun to anyone?

[Mardur]

Originally Posted by tmoneynegro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) Forced Grouping: Real Everquest PvP was not a forced grouping game. By having all this CC land easily, you make it far too easy for people to get in groups and zerg rush down solo players or smaller numbers of people. Your theology of balance is inherently "pro-zerg rush".

Irrelevant; a group of players is just about always going to defeat a solo regardless of resist system and this is the way it should be.

2) Hybrid vs Pure Melee balance: In real EQ PvP, these classes were balanced relatively well against each other in eras like Kunark. The balance probably tipped towards hybrids but it was still close. Letting crowd control land easily dramatically increases the power of hybrids resulting in major imbalance.

Pure melee are more susceptible to magic, makes sense. That's what you're getting yourself into when you roll a pure melee.

3) Channeling Skill: Pure melee do not receive the channeling skill, they can't pumice anything while being hit. Making crowd control land easily dramatically nerfs pure melee while being much less of a nerf to hybrids and other caster classes.

Just because melee don't get channeling doesn't mean they should be immune to magic. Read above.

4) Caster vs Melee survivability: When a zerg of people runs at you spamming crowd control spells and you know you're gonna die if you stick around, the moment root lands, the caster hits the gate button or shadowstep/gate and escapes before they reach him a lot of the time. Melee on the other hand will try to pumice, get rooted again soon as it comes off, and gang banged by the zerg for a free kill. This is obviously a huge imbalance in survivability, especially when tank classes are supposed to have high survivability.

You're just rewording the same thing over and over again. Pure melee have higher defensive skills and HP, casters get magic like Yonder to survive. Magic users are less susceptible to magic than melee. Melee are less susceptible to melee than magic users.

5) Dumbing down the game: Crowd control spells landing easily makes it so melee classes are always attacking stationary targets. This removes all the skill from playing a melee class completely. You're no longer jousting anyone, you just stand next to them with auto-attack on. It's inherently dumbing down the game and removing skilled aspects.

Allowing a snare to land for 2 ticks as opposed to flat out resisting 100% of the time is not dumbing down the game, it's allowing certain classes to not be completely useless against opponents with high resists.

6) Another unintended upgrade to hybrids: This is something only someone who played a hybrid on TZVZ would understand. He made CC land easily but also made it last a short duration. When a caster roots you and you're fighting 1vs1, you already know it's going to drop relatively soon. The pure melee really has no choice except to pumice it since he can't do anything else. For the hybrid on the other hand, a lot of the time it's actually more effective to completely ignore it and heal yourself/lifetap or root them back instead because you're gonna be able to move soon anyway. The end result is that melees have to pumice themselves and hybrids get to ignore root, not pumice themselves, and also do useful things while the root is on them (casting) during 1vs1's.

So what, that's the advantage of having magic at your disposal. Both types of classes have a way out.

7) 1vs1's where each person casts root 50 times: Example of how ridiculous this system is: A paladin or ranger sees a caster class and a 1vs1 starts. Since being able to immobilize your target is such a powerful spell, the hybrid is gonna spam it. Once the caster sees the hybrid chain rooting him in between swings, he realizes his only hope is to root the hybrid back and hopefully resist a root so he can get some space between each other. This goes on over and over and each player is basically perma rooted the entire fight while occasionally popping out and running a few steps. Does this actually sound fun to anyone?

Irrelevant.

[tmoneynegro]

Originally Posted by Mardur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Irrelevant; a group of players is just about always going to defeat a solo regardless of resist system and this is the way it should be.

Wrong. In real EQ PvP, zerging isn't a viable tactic because you can just run away from them. It wasn't until the Tendonslicer piercer in Luclin that you could actually snare a well geared player and it was an unreliable weapon proc.

Originally Posted by Mardur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just because melee don't get channeling doesn't mean they should be immune to magic. Read above.

Once again, we are here to play EQ PvP, not "Mardur's whatever the fuck poor balance server"

Originally Posted by Mardur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Allowing a snare to land for 2 ticks as opposed to flat out resisting 100% of the time is not dumbing down the game, it's allowing certain classes to not be completely useless against opponents with high resists.

Of course it's dumbing down the game. It takes 0 skill to zerg down a stationary target.

[Shamanx]

Originally Posted by tmoneynegro [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wrong. In real EQ PvP, zerging isn't a viable tactic because you can just run away from them. It wasn't until the Tendonslicer piercer in Luclin that you could actually snare a well geared player and it was an unreliable weapon proc.

Say what?? Zerg vs. Solo the only thing the solo can do to get away is gate (which has nothing to do with snares/roots landing), or run away with SoW. With the latter, you:
A) Have SoW, and be running away from them before they're in range to cast.
B) Need to pray they don't have a Bard/Druid/Shaman that can out run you.
C) Hope they don't have anyone that has a bow, because you'll eventually get killed.