Why rangers don't suck

[Corrodith]

Pretty proud of this one. This was not a joke. I think.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In any group where cleric mana isn't an issue, a ranger tank is probably the single best choice, aggro is never an issue, and dps is superior to a paladin or sk.

Does not compute. If "cleric mana isn't an issue", then you're not constantly pulling. It takes more mana for a cleric to heal a Ranger tank and thus it creates more downtime and thus Rangers are not good tanks and they slow down the exp gain of the group (even without taking the exp penalty into consideration). A Ranger tank allowing the group to kill pulls marginally faster than a Paladin or SK is not at all efficient when compared to how much extra damage they are taking. In the end, far more mana needs to be spent on the Ranger and the group is going to kill less as a result.

It depends on the content we're talking about, though. At the higher levels, Rangers can tank low blue cons fine, yes. For harder content they are not good, though, and the disparity quickly increases as the monsters become more difficult. This means the Ranger needs to fulfill a DPS role and one of the problems with that is Rangers do less DPS than Warriors (because their skillcaps are lower). The other problem is that in order to even do their best DPS, Rangers steal aggro away from Warriors (even though they are doing less damage, that's just the way the aggro chart works). This ultimately leaves Rangers without much of a role at all for higher level groups, all while being burdened with the exp penalty.

Their utility can be nice and the improvements (+removal of exp penalty) they receive in Velious-era make them a more competitive package for the higher levels, but what EQ Rangers really need is a class redesign. They shouldn't just be "less durable Warriors who can track, with some Druid spells thrown in". The class should be much more focused on using a Bow and using their own unique abilities. Of course, the combat system and the way PvE is set up in Everquest needs a improvement to fully support such a thing.

[Lazortag]

I've been in howling stones groups with ranger tanks that were just fine. We were constantly pulling. I know because I was the puller. My hierarchy for tanks is like Pally > Monk > SK > Ranger > Warrior (in exp groups; obviously on raids Warriors are the best). The reason I prefer rangers over warriors is because of aggro holding ability. If the tank has aggro then the rogues are doing as much damage as they could be doing, and they aren't taking aggro and wasting cleric mana.

[Hamahakki]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I resent the suggestion that a Bard is somehow inferior to an Enchanter. I know for a fact that I contribute more to a group than any Enchanter. In fact I would go as far to say that I contribute more to a group than anyone of any class. The ideal group is a group consisting of me and 5 clones of me.

- A group which wants crowd control wants Giegue, or at least an enchanter.

Fixed.

[Hamahakki]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does not compute. If "cleric mana isn't an issue", then you're not constantly pulling.

This isn't necessarily true. At high levels, the bottleneck for kill rate is often DPS, not healer mana. A ranger tank can potentially allow the group to kill mobs faster than a knight (because the ranger does more damage) or a warrior (because the rest of the group can unload earlier without taking agro.)

Also, a good ranger is going to preserve the cleric's mana better than a bad warrior. You'd rather be in a group where a ranger is taking say 50 CH's an hour than one where the warrior is taking 40 CH's an hour but the rest of the group needs spot heals because mobs aren't sticking to the tank.

[Nakara]

Originally Posted by Corrodith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure about low levels, but I found woodsman staff to be garbage.

It's the best droppable dps weapon in the game for rangers so if you don't have a raid weapon you should probably be using it.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This isn't necessarily true. At high levels, the bottleneck for kill rate is often DPS, not healer mana.

Ranger DPS vs. Paladin/SK DPS in the tank slot isn't where the big difference is going to come from, though. The 3 slots outside of Tank/Cleric/Enchanter are where you expect most of the DPS to come from. Of course, that's why Monks are often the best tank for exp-churning at the higher levels: they tank suspiciously well in addition to doing huge DPS.

Besides, I feel it's generally much more important when you're grinding in places like Sebelis for the tank to actually be able to take hits. You want the tank to be able to absorb the punishment from several monsters at once if there is an overambitious pull or ill-timed adds. The group dying is the biggest detriment of all to the exp grinding, because of the time it requires to set up again (and the exp loss, even though it's not with the top cleric rezz).

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, a good ranger is going to preserve the cleric's mana better than a bad warrior.

LOL, that's not a very relevant statement though? It would be better to compare a good ranger to a good warrior. Frankly, a bad warrior (in terms of field awareness, not equipment) is still better than the best ranger in many situations because all they have to do is attack the pulls when they come in and hit their extra buttons on recharge. The Warrior absorbs damage far better and does more damage and has the best exp modifier instead of the worst exp modifier. It all depends on how well the rest of the group is handling any difficult situations that may arise and the risk level of where the group is fighting. Quite a few exp grinds don't require much thought and are rather about repeating the same monotony over and over. People just want to get through it as fast as possible so they can move onto "the promised land" of being max level. It's not just exp grinding, though, but also grinding for drops where this becomes relevant.

Originally Posted by Hamahakki [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You'd rather be in a group where a ranger is taking say 50 CH's an hour than one where the warrior is taking 40 CH's an hour but the rest of the group needs spot heals because mobs aren't sticking to the tank.

Sure, but I've not seen it work out like that if you're in a situation where it's not just low blue cons those two classes would be tanking. The ranger needs 80+ CH's in comparison to 40 for a Warrior for harder content. If you are only fighting low blue cons, then most of the tanking aggro problems are solved by rooting anyway. A Ranger tank for holding aggro just isn't needed, all it would be doing in that case is taking more damage and dishing out less than the Warrior. If the situation calls for something where snap aggro is valued, then that probably means you want the Pally/SK because it sounds like the situation is one where you want the tank to actually be able to...tank.

I've seen some great Ranger action in places like Sol B where you are grinding out on monsters in the mid/high 30's, with the Ranger being able to pull a bunch and root-park them, thus providing far more control over the situation than a Warrior ever could, but into the expansions it just doesn't work like that. Class balance goes very awry.

[koros]

A ranger who isn't geared to the gills for strength and has a lot of ac/hp items on is going to tank fine in almost any dungeon. Mobs in Kunark just didn't hit that hard and ch is ridiculously OP.

[DigglesVersion2.0]

rangers do suck pal, to be honest though if they didnt have a 40 percent penalty i wouldnt mind their sub par dps and over agro of npcs

[Grizzin]

The number of Rangers on P99 has quadrupled since this post was made, fyi. Maybe most of them will get burned out before 60.

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