My proposal for Raiding guilds and GMs of P1999

[Supreme]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I had to choose something for rotations, it would definitely be more a type of suicide kings, rather than just /random. Why? Because random fucks some people while others have a horseshoe permanently entrenched up their ass.

Using something like suicide kings would let guilds choose to pass on the mob or take the suicide.

Raid Rotation Suicide Kings

/random for initial guild placement on the suicide list. Let's say it ends up something like this

1. DA
2. Divinity
3. IB
4. Remedy

Guilds are individually responsible for their own tracking and mob intel.
"No one told us it was up" is not an excuse.

Let's say IB, Divinity, and DA all have trackers in SolB, or intel on a Naggy pop. DA as first on the list has 5 minutes to decide if they will mobilize for Naggy, or pass.

If they mobilize, they have an hour to kill the target (if something has trash like a full zone pop in a plane this might have to be longer, also I'd include attempts that start before the end of that hour to wrap up). Choosing to mobilize for that target will drop them one spot beneath the lowest of the three that were present/aware of the spawn -- they have suicided to the bottom of those people on the list.

If the first guild passes it goes to the next guild down the list who has 5 minutes to decide if they will suicide, and so on.

If it gets to the bottom, obviously the guild at the bottom of those involved can take the raid target and they have nowhere to go. I seriously doubt that it makes it that far down the list though with so few targets in classic.


===

Do I like rotations? No, I think they're pants on head retarded. If I am going to see one implemented though I would want to see one that emphasized tracking and intel rather than OMG OUR TURN EVEN THO WE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS UP.

Addendum: mobilization is important. If you can't get that shit down in an hour, or you opt to take the raid target but can't get enough people, sucks to be you -- you just suicided for no reason.

Again..just because there are only 4 guilds WILLING to permacamp current raid targets does not mean that there are only 4 guilds CAPABLE of doing the content....If you add 4 more guilds into the mix you have 8 guilds trying to compete for less than 8 raid targets...

[Qaedain]

(Background: Raided in EQ from launch until early OOW, usually 1-2 months behind the curve set by guilds like FOH).

"Patch day" repops.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Supreme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again..just because there are only 4 guilds WILLING to permacamp current raid targets does not mean that there are only 4 guilds CAPABLE of doing the content....If you add 4 more guilds into the mix you have 8 guilds trying to compete for less than 8 raid targets...

Fun fact: It isn't camping in this situation, it is awareness and mobilization. In this method a tracker has just as much claim as however many are camping it. The example used four guilds, simply because that is the situation at the moment. More can be added to the list easily.

If you don't have a tracker or the wherewithall to know when a target is up, I don't see how you should be able to have a claim on it.

[Akame]

I disagree with the notion of guild rotation of any kind at any point.

Any pickup raid or raiding alliance should have just as much right to competition as any set guild, whether they use it or not, they should have the freedom to create themselves and begin attempting raid mobs as they can.

No rotation, no taking turns, no rights to a mob before it spawns. Period.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Here's my counter proposal: stop camping. Teach your guild how to mobilize and let's race. I love to race. It was dull when we got all the bosses. I'd rather lose a close race to Divinity or Dark Ascension than get every spawn uncontested. It's exciting. It makes the kills much more fun. It builds respect between the guilds. Competition helps develop everyone's skills and elevates all to a higher level of play.

On the other hand, I can't imagine anything in the world less exciting than the endless rules and boss lottery you have proposed. Your outline is a full page, which means the completed rules will be ten or twenty pages. That sure sounds fun.

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Alawen Everywhere [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think everyone knows by now that I'm a pretty straight shooter, so here's exactly what I think.

I think we have been hearing about the "new sheriff" in town for several weeks. We've heard a lot of trash talk from a guild that recruited a huge zerg of anyone level 46 or over that has never killed more than 50% of bosses in a given cycle, despite turning the raid scene into the big sit. We've seen and taken screen shots of a DA officer training our raids. We've had DA leadership actively lie to a GM in order to receive an additional attempt.

If this proposal had come two or three weeks ago, there would still be many issues with it. I'm not an officer and I don't speak for my guild, but I don't expect many of us to welcome this proposal at all now.

From my perspective, I don't see a solid core to DA. I see a huge number of officers (10? 12? how many officers do you guys have?) trying to hold together a guild full of recent 50s with the highest turnover rate I've ever seen in an MMO guild. This proposal looks completely disingenuous to me. I think there is a rising dissent within DA from members who want to camp items from non-raid targets that they are missing, build some wealth on the server, develop alts and just have a good time. I think this negotiation comes from a position of increasing weakness.

Before DA, IB was like a conventional raid guild. We'd have our small tracking team (like me!) watching for raid targets while everyone did their thing, whether online or offline. When something popped, we'd let each other know, assemble and mobilize. We were good at it and many guilds discovered that they weren't as fast as we are. DA's leadership decided to eliminate mobilization from the equation with camping. Now we have a DA officer proposing rotation because they're tired of camping.

Here's the bottom line: from where I sit, it seems like DA thought a couple weeks of camping would destroy IB. Instead, it's destroying DA. It looks like a couple more weeks of camping 24/7 will return the server to raid strategies involving tracking and mobilization.

Just like classic EQ.

Really? I think, like you, everyone knows that I'm fair and tend to speak my mind. That being said, some of what you said may be true, but I hope you realize how big of a jackass you sound in this post. Seriously, get off the high horse and join us "recent 50s" (/boggle) in a civil discussion.

As far as the topic at hand - I think raiding on this server can be compared to economics in regard to Adam Smith's concept of an invisible hand. Eventually it will work itself out. If people get sick of sitting on mobs, then they'll eventually stop. If not, they should be more than welcome to continue using whatever tactic they please assuming it abides by basic server rules (PnP). There is no need to regulate it... it will eventually fix itself.

Oh also - Phallax. I would address your posts in this thread, but I don't think I need to tell everyone what they already know.

[Reiker]

Originally Posted by Supreme [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I remember before rotation we had a similar problem where Transcendence would start to camp Naggy/Vox 2 days before the mob would even spawn.

That brought about GM enforced rotation.

Then it was done away with because the idea of a "spawn variance" would solve the idea of camping and promote "mobilization".

The fact was that it did not matter. Now guilds can kill Naggy on Sunday then just stay camped there until he spawns 5-9 days later.

Just wanna say I called it. Although I hated rotation, when Nizzarr was first suggesting spawn variance I had a solid stance that not only would it not solve camping, it would promote longer camping.

Solution is FFA/First aggro.

No hate to Nizzarr though, one of the best people on this server and I commend his passion for trying to improve things.

Edit: I'll agree that simultaneous raid boss spawning or "simulated patch days" would be better than spawn variance though. You'll still retain competition in mobilization, and IB will still be the most efficient guild, getting a majority of the kills, but allows other capable "up and coming" raid guilds to snag some dragon or god loot once a week. Rotation eliminates competition and is completely in opposition of the spirit of the game.

[Supreme]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree with the notion of guild rotation of any kind at any point.

Any pickup raid or raiding alliance should have just as much right to competition as any set guild, whether they use it or not, they should have the freedom to create themselves and begin attempting raid mobs as they can.

No rotation, no taking turns, no rights to a mob before it spawns. Period.

I think you are missing the point we are making.

We play to enjoy the classic EQ content and experience. None of us are still college kids, living single with only ourselves to take care of. We have jobs, families and other responsibilities.

With the current state of affairs it is near impossible to raid and experience classic EQ content unless you spend all your life camping/waiting for this 11 year old content to spawn.

Thus why i suggest creating a second server that has a GM enforced raid rotation to accommodate those players that are like myself. It is not to say that a mob spawns that it is "guaranteed" to go to a guild but a guild will be "guaranteed" a chance to do the content before another guild(s) are allowed.

[Supreme]

I would like to add...

I think it would be UNFAIR to those the desire to "mobilize" or FFA raid mobs to be forced to accept a rotation. Just like i feel it is unfair to those that desire rotation be forced to accept a FFA.

The solution is a second server.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Really? I think, like you, everyone knows that I'm fair and tend to speak my mind. That being said, some of what you said may be true, but I hope you realize how big of a jackass you sound in this post. Seriously, get off the high horse and join us "recent 50s" (/boggle) in a civil discussion.

As far as the topic at hand - I think raiding on this server can be compared to economics in regard to Adam Smith's concept of an invisible hand. Eventually it will work itself out. If people get sick of sitting on mobs, then they'll eventually stop. If not, they should be more than welcome to continue using whatever tactic they please assuming it abides by basic server rules (PnP). There is no need to regulate it... it will eventually fix itself.

Oh also - Phallax. I would address your posts in this thread, but I don't think I need to tell everyone what they already know.

You just called me a jackass and told me to get off my high horse but somehow I'm the one being uncivil because I disagree? I don't like your guild's tactics and strategies. I don't like Nizzarr's ideas to fix the problems that he, by his own admission, helped to cause.

We don't need any fancy proposals and complicated rules to fix this situation. I can't express this any more clearly:

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

You created the problem and now you're complaining and pretending to offer solutions. Really?