Raid Rules Alternative

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thank you Dumesh, this is by far the best suggestion I've seen on these boards yet for raid rules and I love the first aggro 15 minutes to engage with high penalties for ksing, training and falsifying reports.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If two players, aggro at once, and 2 guilds are sitting there, alive, awake and ready to engage then /random for it and leave the gm's be.

Nothing in my rule prevents this. If two (or more) parties waiting for a spawn want to come up with another arrangement for a particular spawn, they are free to do so. If some member of that agreement breaks his or her word, then that will become known. That is it's own consequence.

[matahari]

I am not a part of the raid scene. Disregard anything I say. My opinion is there are three choices.

1. The rules that the guilds have right now.
2. FFA first to engage with ks'ing leapfrogging still camping.
3. A calendar system of reserving days in certain zones/mobs. I found a link to the calendar system from back in the day from luclin server. This is also a lot like rotation that people had and didn't like.

http://web.archive.org/web/200101241...om.com/luclin/

I don't think there is any real answer to the raiding problems. Most raiding guilds would like all the raid mobs for their guild. DA and Ib will go to extremes to get the raid mobs under whatever rule system is in place. Soon other guilds will join them.

[Qaedain]

I like how you said there were three choices in a thread that spells out a fourth and viable alternative.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Killing through trash doesn't earn a guild anything but the xp and loot from from those corpses

I was only referencing the fact that because it is beneficial to clear the zone, having someone do all the work for you as you leapfrog them is asinine. It's legal, but this will pretty much happen every time. It's not really competition as it is basically akin to camping. Nothing is to stop a guild from doing that indefinitely except the idea of an alliance of members to fight it. 100+ people in pofear? No reason not to if it gives you the upper hand.

What about if there was a first attempt deal to be made with CT? I don't see it necessary in any other zone where leapfrogging really only consists of like 20-30 mobs. The golem rule in effect right now gives you a timer to complete killing two of three golems. Once that is complete, you have first shot at CT. Instead of having a timer to kill the golems, it could be FFA. If, for example, CT is up at this time and multiple raids are racing for golems, then it will trigger DTs on both raids, meaning the raid who can recover quicker will do so and move to the last golem to reach a majority. If the majority of golems requirement is met then the race could be over and CT awarded to one raid force. If the golems are not up then it could be as you said. This way the encounter is either decided much more reasonably than a fight in a zone where trains will easily be caused, or right upon the engage of CT, depending on the state of the zone.

If faction wars still work I'd simply wipe the zone and sit in the zone on CT's path and get the first engage. Not fair to any other raiders who would consider going to fear just to take out the normal mobs.

[matahari]

No that is not a fourth alternative.

That is FFA with a first to engage rule. That is the same ruleset verant had. Whoever aggros the mob gets it. If your guild didnt' get first aggro. Than you wait until the other guild wipes or kills the mob.

Not saying it's not a good choice. It is just 1 of the 3 rulesets.

The end result of the FFA rules is the same. DA and IB camp the raid mobs with bodies or trackers. Both guilds still fight when the mob spawns and they both have people in the zone all racing to engage first. That just opens up problems like ks'ing training leapfrogging. Both guilds think they got aggro first with 70+ people running into the dragon lair.

It may stop these guilds from sitting their characters in zones for days on end. But it is kinda nice. Frees up a lot of the xp camps in the 30-49 range ; )

The other choice is spawning all raid mobs at the exact same time with a variance of what time/day it happens. With either the 15 in zone ruleset or FFA ruleset "with play nice policies"

But how many times should the devs have to change this ? Plus the work they put in for variance already.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was only referencing the fact that because it is beneficial to clear the zone, having someone do all the work for you as you leapfrog them is asinine. It's legal, but this will pretty much happen every time. It's not really competition as it is basically akin to camping. Nothing is to stop a guild from doing that indefinitely except the idea of an alliance of members to fight it. 100+ people in pofear? No reason not to if it gives you the upper hand.

What about if there was a first attempt deal to be made with CT? I don't see it necessary in any other zone where leapfrogging really only consists of like 20-30 mobs. The golem rule in effect right now gives you a timer to complete killing two of three golems. Once that is complete, you have first shot at CT. Instead of having a timer to kill the golems, it could be FFA. If, for example, CT is up at this time and multiple raids are racing for golems, then it will trigger DTs on both raids, meaning the raid who can recover quicker will do so and move to the last golem to reach a majority. If the majority of golems requirement is met then the race could be over and CT awarded to one raid force. If the golems are not up then it could be as you said. This way the encounter is either decided much more reasonably than a fight in a zone where trains will easily be caused, or right upon the engage of CT, depending on the state of the zone.

If faction wars still work I'd simply wipe the zone and sit in the zone on CT's path and get the first engage. Not fair to any other raiders who would consider going to fear just to take out the normal mobs.

If no one could ever zone into fear except when it was at full pop, including CT, then I would be cool with what you suggest. CT spawning doesn't insta repop the whole zone does it? If it did, then your suggestion would be cool with me, but not as the published server rule... just as an agreement between the guilds that raid CT.

You plan just plain doesn't address what happens if the zone is 2/3 clear with 2 golems up when CT spawns, or 3/4 clear with no golems up.

You mention 100 members in Fear, "no reason not to" you say. Well, feel free to try it. You may get the first few CTs, but guilds that size collapse because they can't get loot fast enough to keep that many people happy and engaged. Guilds that raid with 25-40 people (less during some periods of EQ, more during POP) always advanced faster and were more cohesive because each member had a greater chance at getting loot, and the guild as a whole would get equipped and ready to move on to newer content faster.

All I am really saying is that there are downward pressures on guild and alliance size too. We'll see where the equilibrium is reached.

Sure when 2 or 3 guilds are in PoFear for the first time after this rule goes into effect there will be some kind of mexican stand-off as the guilds try to decide the best way to handle it. Should they just setup near CT and wait for the other guilds to kill all the mobs? If they do that, will the other guilds continue to kill mobs? Will the guild/raid leaders try to talk to each other and agree to a joint raid? Will they random for a shot? I'm not sure exactly what strategies will be employed, BUT as long as no one is training each other, KSing each other, or calling a GM over an issue not related to training or KSing, I'm totally cool with whatever they decide.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not saying it's not a good choice. It is just 1 of the 3 rulesets.

In fairness... this is what you said:

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. FFA first to engage with ks'ing leapfrogging still camping.

I have addressed the issues of training in my proposal. I have talked about how it would change the nature, type, and duration of camping. I have also admitted that some leapfrogging is a likely consequence.

It seems like you (intentionally or not) glossed over the ways in which my proposal addresses those things and simply declared that all the problems would still exist without debating the points.... or you were just referring to some other unmitigated FFA. In which case, there is a 4th alternative (and many others that other people might submit)

[matahari]

That's just it. Both guilds will believe they had aggro first. So an entire guild is going to get banned for Ks'ing even though they believe they aggro'd first. Or the other guild has someone un-guilded train the other guild.

I agree first to engage with no training ksing would be awesome. Both guilds are sitting with 5 giants in the way of the dragon. Both guilds know that if they pull the giants the other guild will take the dragon.

If adding rules to the first to engage works out. That would be great for the server. But you know there is going to be a ton more fighting than there is under this camp fest ruleset of who gets the mob.

I like rotation/ calendar system : ) but i'm a carebear. Every other system will have a ton of fighting.

Like a dev said. 80people will sit on the dragon spawn in 3 or 4 diff guilds. Ban 3 of the 4 guilds for a month for trying to ks the impossible to know first to engage? Than after that dragon dies repeat in the next zone.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by matahari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's just it. Both guilds will believe they had aggro first. So an entire guild is going to get banned for Ks'ing even though they believe they aggro'd first. Or the other guild has someone un-guilded train the other guild.

That is very easily combated by taking regular screen shots of opposing guilds /who all commands

We did that in velious all of the time. (took screenshots of other guilds rosters to prove to gm's that the trainers were only temporarily removed).

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If no one could ever zone into fear except when it was at full pop, including CT, then I would be cool with what you suggest. CT spawning doesn't insta repop the whole zone does it? If it did, then your suggestion would be cool with me, but not as the published server rule... just as an agreement between the guilds that raid CT.

You plan just plain doesn't address what happens if the zone is 2/3 clear with 2 golems up when CT spawns, or 3/4 clear with no golems up.

You mention 100 members in Fear, "no reason not to" you say. Well, feel free to try it. You may get the first few CTs, but guilds that size collapse because they can't get loot fast enough to keep that many people happy and engaged. Guilds that raid with 25-40 people (less during some periods of EQ, more during POP) always advanced faster and were more cohesive because each member had a greater chance at getting loot, and the guild as a whole would get equipped and ready to move on to newer content faster.

All I am really saying is that there are downward pressures on guild and alliance size too. We'll see where the equilibrium is reached.

Sure when 2 or 3 guilds are in PoFear for the first time after this rule goes into effect there will be some kind of mexican stand-off as the guilds try to decide the best way to handle it. Should they just setup near CT and wait for the other guilds to kill all the mobs? If they do that, will the other guilds continue to kill mobs? Will the guild/raid leaders try to talk to each other and agree to a joint raid? Will they random for a shot? I'm not sure exactly what strategies will be employed, BUT as long as no one is training each other, KSing each other, or calling a GM over an issue not related to training or KSing, I'm totally cool with whatever they decide.

I'm just trying to work through possibilties. The two planes are for the most part cleared upon repop by any group looking for planar drops and/or people waiting for raid mobs to spawn. There are occurrences of fear being fully populated, with golems, and no one is clearing. If CT popped, this is where the rules could have this clause just to help decide whether or not a guild is just going to sit there and AFK camp for 3-5 hours while the other guild clears and then hop on it, or if they go ahead and get to killing off the rest of fear quicker because they have first shot. There's still a huge race involved but it's not as long of an event.