My proposal for Raiding guilds and GMs of P1999

[jilena]

Wooo! Thank god this finally got moved to RnF!!

G13 you are the biggest fucking retard in the history of retarded fucking retards. That's like a triple Finawin dickslap for you.

I am going to type this in capital letters so maybe it will be easier to read.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FUCKING CAMPING AND FUCKING MOBILIZATION IS THAT WITH MOBILIZATION YOU ARE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME BETWEEN SPAWNS. THE FACT THAT YOU LOG OUT IN A CONVENIENT LOCATION AND SORTA "CAMP THE MOB" WHILE LOGGED OFF DOES NOT MAKE IT THE SAME THING AS SITTING THERE UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHARACTER WHILE WAITING FOR THE MOB TO SPAWN.

I hope that makes it clearer.

<3

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by jilena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am going to type this in capital letters so maybe it will be easier to read.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FUCKING CAMPING AND FUCKING MOBILIZATION IS THAT WITH MOBILIZATION YOU ARE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME BETWEEN SPAWNS. THE FACT THAT YOU LOG OUT IN A CONVENIENT LOCATION AND SORTA "CAMP THE MOB" WHILE LOGGED OFF DOES NOT MAKE IT THE SAME THING AS SITTING THERE UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHARACTER WHILE WAITING FOR THE MOB TO SPAWN.

I hope that makes it clearer.

<3

What? Don't you have 2 other accounts to play while you claim a raid target? Shows how smart IB is! bahaha I kid I kid!

[G13]

Originally Posted by jilena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FUCKING CAMPING AND FUCKING MOBILIZATION IS THAT WITH MOBILIZATION YOU ARE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME BETWEEN SPAWNS. THE FACT THAT YOU LOG OUT IN A CONVENIENT LOCATION AND SORTA "CAMP THE MOB" WHILE LOGGED OFF DOES NOT MAKE IT THE SAME THING AS SITTING THERE UNABLE TO DO ANYTHING WITH YOUR CHARACTER WHILE WAITING FOR THE MOB TO SPAWN.

I hope that makes it clearer.

<3

You have a different opinion that me, which is fine. Not everyone plays Everquest for the same reasons as you do. Please refer to my original post on the subject, which outlines it quite nicely.

For some people, the end game bosses is the game. Not crafting. Not farming, ect. It's that simple.

If your main focus is to kill raid mobs to gear up your guild, camping is the most efficient way. You still need to mobilize efficiently, coordinate, ect. You just do it in advance instead of right when the mob spawns. Any guild can challenge that, which is exactly what IB and DA have been doing to each other. It's a very strategic game. I don't understand why one guild is talking about mobilization when that is exactly what both guilds have been doing now. Example: IB wipes in Hate and drops below 15. DA ports up within 5 minutes to claim it. That is about as clear cut an example of mobilization as there is. They needed to get to a port and get ported in 3-5 minutes before IB could res back up. I seem to remember the guild that prides itself on mobilization not accepting defeat in that situation and getting a GM involved.

Like I said before, why camp in WC when you can camp in the zone? You still need to buff, kill trash, pull boss, and kill boss within 30 minutes. I understand that some do not like doing this and are vehemently against it. They have every right to their opinion, but there is also a flip side to that coin.

So let's say an idle is put in place where you get auto logged off if you don't move? People will find a way around it. So you track with one druid and everyone just camps out at the preferred spot. Mob spawns, batphone, guild is ready to go. No need to port. Even without the 15 person in zone rule guilds would still do this. They would be stupid not to if they wanted the loot bad enough. People are acting like an FFA train/KS shitfest of chaos is somehow going to be better. It won't be. None of these encounters are designed for that except maybe Fear, and I already explained how that would be a shitfest as well.

It's all one straight line to the targets, where guilds would be leapfrogging each other and doing every shady tactic necessary to get "first aggro". What's first aggro though and who determines it's legit? Especially if guild B is getting aggro from mobs they didn't even pull? The obvious tactic guild A would use it to "accidently" get aggro on B, slowing down their charge towards the boss.

Everquest is a fun game, but it is a very flawed game. These same arguments and opinions have been thrown back and forth since 1999. These arguments are nothing new.

[jilena]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have a different opinion that me, which is fine. Not everyone plays Everquest for the same reasons as you do. Please refer to my original post on the subject, which outlines it quite nicely.

For some people, the end game bosses is the game. Not crafting. Not farming, ect. It's that simple.

...

Like I said before, why camp in WC when you can camp in the zone? You still need to buff, kill trash, pull boss, and kill boss within 30 minutes. I understand that some do not like doing this and are vehemently against it. They have every right to their opinion, but there is also a flip side to that coin.

Okay, since you decided to not reply with insults and take the fun out of RnF I suppose I will be more adult as well (asshole). I am in no way implying that the end goal and/or result of either strategy (mobilizing or camping) is any different. I get that. I am even more than willing to concede that of the two strategies camping is more likely to yield the desired result.

I also get that right now this is a contest of wills between IB and DA. The desired result is for one of the guilds to break and admit defeat and more likely than not crumble as a result. To further this end both guilds have significantly lower standards of recruitment than is common for these types of guilds in a healthier competative environment. The current strategy being asses glued to the ground does not really require upper tier players and is honestly best accomplished by people who are bad at the game as you don't want your decent players getting burned out. Obviously once the other guild concedes most of these fail players will find themselves looking for guild yet again for some simple excuse or another.

I get all this. My point is simply that you CANNOT claim that camping and mobilization are the same thing. One (assuming you are not a piece of shit boxing whore... oh haaay haven't IP exemption requests been on the rise lately?!) requires your only character to sit doing nothing in one place for probably the entire time you are logged in. The other requires you to drop what you are doing and get some place in a short window of time. Whether or not you get the boss at the end is not the point I am making here. The point is that with a camping strat, I would be stuck sitting in place and unable to play my character. Were the strat mobilization, I would be able to do whatever I wanted 99% of the time and simply have to park my character in a convenient location when I am NOT playing. I don't know about you but I don't really care where my character is sitting while I am not in game.

I am indifferent as to the WHY of you choosing to do these things. I just think it's silly that people would even try and compare the two strats and claim they are equal and have equal impact on the lives and or in game enjoyment of the people involved in executing them. I find it REALLY hard to believe that the majority of the people involved in this camping catastrophe find it fun. I would be willing to wager that if the guilds coming out on top of this clusterfuck (IB and DA) felt they could retain the same degree of boss kills in a situation that didn't require camping, then that is what we would see happening. Right now, so long as camping gets you a guaranteed boss claim, if one guild is camping the other will follow suit. The current rules only allow you to fight camping with more camping.

Such a horrible situation regardless of how many shiny things it nets your guild.

[Raren]

lol whoever bullet is i love him goood shit

[G13]

Originally Posted by jilena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay, since you decided to not reply with insults and take the fun out of RnF I suppose I will be more adult as well (asshole). I am in no way implying that the end goal and/or result of either strategy (mobilizing or camping) is any different. I get that. I am even more than willing to concede that of the two strategies camping is more likely to yield the desired result.

The thing I don't think you understand is that both scenarios require the same effort in terms of mobilization. 2 guilds are being proactive and preparing for the boss's spawn in advance. Nothing is stopping another guild from mobilizing before them and claiming the spawn. The situation as it stands now, is that both DA and IB are committing themselves and mobilizing for mobs way in advance because they want the boss kills/loot more than anyone else. Other guilds are not willing to do that, which is perfectly fine. It's their choice.

You still need to plan and coordinate accordingly. You still need your frost potions. You still need to coordinate bindspots, ect. The logical conclusion in terms of efficient is finding any way possible to cut down on time to be ready to kill a boss when it pops. Whether you have a 15 in zone first rule or not, it all depends on how badly a group of people want a boss and what they are willing to do in order to get it. You still need to pick your targets and think of ways to throw the other guild off their game, IE, calling timers, putting pressure, ect. Like it not, the current raid rules create a competitive game that has been being played.

I also get that right now this is a contest of wills between IB and DA. The desired result is for one of the guilds to break and admit defeat and more likely than not crumble as a result. To further this end both guilds have significantly lower standards of recruitment than is common for these types of guilds in a healthier competative environment. The current strategy being asses glued to the ground does not really require upper tier players and is honestly best accomplished by people who are bad at the game as you don't want your decent players getting burned out. Obviously once the other guild concedes most of these fail players will find themselves looking for guild yet again for some simple excuse or another.

You're right. It is a contest of wills between IB and DA. I don't believe that DA has lowered it's standards of recruitment, nor has IB. They have an application process where anyone can apply. You're given a fair shot to become a member. Not everyone gets into the guild. The lvl 50 game is very top heavy at the moment, with 2 guilds killing all the bosses. Obviously those 2 guilds are going to get more apps. You still need to be a competent player to help your guild when it counts. Like I said before, it's not like these mobs spawn on a silver platter. You still need to clear to them, pull properly, buff, and execute within a specific timer in order to get the kill.

I get all this. My point is simply that you CANNOT claim that camping and mobilization are the same thing. One (assuming you are not a piece of shit boxing whore... oh haaay haven't IP exemption requests been on the rise lately?!) requires your only character to sit doing nothing in one place for probably the entire time you are logged in. The other requires you to drop what you are doing and get some place in a short window of time. Whether or not you get the boss at the end is not the point I am making here. The point is that with a camping strat, I would be stuck sitting in place and unable to play my character. Were the strat mobilization, I would be able to do whatever I wanted 99% of the time and simply have to park my character in a convenient location when I am NOT playing. I don't know about you but I don't really care where my character is sitting while I am not in game.

You get all this, but you don't seem to to be grasping it. Getting the boss at the end IS the point of both DA and IB. The "camping" strategy is nothing more than a proactive mobilization strategy. You don't want to mobilize for a boss until it spawns, which is your choice. Other people have decided to be proactive.

I am indifferent as to the WHY of you choosing to do these things. I just think it's silly that people would even try and compare the two strats and claim they are equal and have equal impact on the lives and or in game enjoyment of the people involved in executing them. I find it REALLY hard to believe that the majority of the people involved in this camping catastrophe find it fun. I would be willing to wager that if the guilds coming out on top of this clusterfuck (IB and DA) felt they could retain the same degree of boss kills in a situation that didn't require camping, then that is what we would see happening. Right now, so long as camping gets you a guaranteed boss claim, if one guild is camping the other will follow suit. The current rules only allow you to fight camping with more camping.

Such a horrible situation regardless of how many shiny things it nets your guild.

This is your opinion, which is fine. What you find "fun" or "not fun" someone else enjoys because it's not about the camping. It's about the politics and the deeper strategic game being played on the board. It's about the guild VS game. Not the mob game.

The "Why" people do these things is the most important part. There is no difference in the strats because when the boss spawns, both guilds still have to do the same thing. Clear to the boss and execute. One guild is just taking the initiative to be in the best possible position when the boss happens to spawn. I don't begrudge anyone for doing that because it's logical. You have to understand that the precedent was set when a guild had a druid in each zone camping 24/7. They would wake up at 3 AM to quickly port in which took minutes and then kill the boss. Why would anyone competing with these circumstances play by their rules? If you want to beat them, you mobilize in the zone before they do, IE have your raid force ready and waiting before the spawn. They still have to do the exact same clearing, buffing, and execution.

The other guild that was porting in is perfectly in their right to roll call you and timer you. Nobody is stopping any guild or group of people from doing this. You don't have to camp anything either. You can wait until the boss spawns and roll call. If they answer the roll call in 1 minute, you call timer. No camping needed either. The burden is on the shoulders of the guild that mobilized days in advance. Not you.

[jilena]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing I don't think you understand is that both scenarios require the same effort in terms of mobilization.

I don't get what you are saying here. Obviously it takes the same amount of "effort" to move now or move later, to have your resist gear on you, to be ready to kill the boss now or later. However there is no comparing how inefficient one strategy is in terms of time spent. One strategy allows you to play the game 95% of the time, the other strategy tethers your character to a single location.

I don't see how you can even argue that there is a comparable amount of "fun" being had here. If you continue to do so I feel you are just being illogical to make your case sound better. Any 4 year old can be used to prove my point. Ground them to their room for some indefinite period of time until supper is ready or let them go run around doing whatever they want until it's time to eat. Observe and let me know which one looks like more fun.

Originally Posted by G13

2 guilds are being proactive and preparing for the boss's spawn in advance. Nothing is stopping another guild from mobilizing before them and claiming the spawn. The situation as it stands now, is that both DA and IB are committing themselves and mobilizing for mobs way in advance because they want the boss kills/loot more than anyone else. Other guilds are not willing to do that, which is perfectly fine. It's their choice.

Well I am not trying to be super pro IB here. I am not in either guild and I have friends in both. I do however believe the sincerity of their "if you stop camping a raid force in front of each boss we will too" statements. I know not a single person in any guild who is fond of this situation. I am not saying this doesn't count as competition and doesn't give you guys some means of trying to edge IB out of their control of the server's top end loot. I am however saying that this competition is one that is as heavily reliant on masochism as it is any sort of organization or mobilization ability.

Originally Posted by G13

You're right. It is a contest of wills between IB and DA. I don't believe that DA has lowered it's standards of recruitment, nor has IB. They have an application process where anyone can apply. You're given a fair shot to become a member. Not everyone gets into the guild. The lvl 50 game is very top heavy at the moment, with 2 guilds killing all the bosses. Obviously those 2 guilds are going to get more apps. You still need to be a competent player to help your guild when it counts.

Haha I dunno man, I see a LOT of people with these tags now. And it is almost impossible to maintain quality when quantity starts becoming more and more important. I see both guilds kicking the obvious fuck ups, but I get the feeling the overall skill in both guilds has diminished significantly (well DA picking up some IV folks prolly was a step up from FB) since camping has become rampant.

Originally Posted by G13

You get all this, but you don't seem to to be grasping it. Getting the boss at the end IS the point of both DA and IB. The "camping" strategy is nothing more than a proactive mobilization strategy. You don't want to mobilize for a boss until it spawns, which is your choice. Other people have decided to be proactive.

...

The "Why" people do these things is the most important part. There is no difference in the strats because when the boss spawns, both guilds still have to do the same thing.

...

The other guild that was porting in is perfectly in their right to roll call you and timer you. Nobody is stopping any guild or group of people from doing this. You don't have to camp anything either. You can wait until the boss spawns and roll call. If they answer the roll call in 1 minute, you call timer. No camping needed either. The burden is on the shoulders of the guild that mobilized days in advance. Not you.

Chopped that up a little bit to be less wall of text quoted moreso than trying to take anything out of context. I am not arguing motivations here. I am arguing that as far as the general health of both guilds is concerned, this camping shit will eventually have to stop. I KNOW both guilds want the loot, and I KNOW that is the reason for the current situation, and I KNOW that so long as it provides the best chance for some guild to get said loot it will continue unless something is done to change it. You can call it being more proactive if you want. To me it's just abusing the spirit of the rules in place to find a way to guarantee yourselves first shot at a boss. *shrug*

[G13]

Originally Posted by jilena [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't get what you are saying here. Obviously it takes the same amount of "effort" to move now or move later, to have your resist gear on you, to be ready to kill the boss now or later. However there is no comparing how inefficient one strategy is in terms of time spent. One strategy allows you to play the game 95% of the time, the other strategy tethers your character to a single location.

Let me make it crystal clear for you. To some people, the strategic part of mobilizing in advance for mobs, maintaining numbers in the zone, clearing trash in rotations, and guaranteeing their right to the boss IS playing the game. Not farming in guk. Not crafting. Not sitting in EC tunnel. They don't care if their character is tethered to one location. They want to win.

I don't see how you can even argue that there is a comparable amount of "fun" being had here. If you continue to do so I feel you are just being illogical to make your case sound better. Any 4 year old can be used to prove my point. Ground them to their room for some indefinite period of time until supper is ready or let them go run around doing whatever they want until it's time to eat. Observe and let me know which one looks like more fun.

Your "fun" is not the same as someone else's "fun". You're looking at the situation in "All or Nothing/Black/White" terms. Competing with a guild, gearing your friends, and strategically moving your forces around in anticipation of boss spawns is "fun" to some people. It's not like there isn't something to do when you're sitting in Fear waiting for CT. You coordinate trash clears, get people geared, ect. You don't even need everyone there anyways. You only need 15 people. It's not difficult to get people willing to hold numbers. They want the mobs and killing them is worth it. It's a war against the rival guild. You do what it takes to win. That's the "game" to people in DA and IB right now.

Well I am not trying to be super pro IB here. I am not in either guild and I have friends in both. I do however believe the sincerity of their "if you stop camping a raid force in front of each boss we will too" statements. I know not a single person in any guild who is fond of this situation. I am not saying this doesn't count as competition and doesn't give you guys some means of trying to edge IB out of their control of the server's top end loot. I am however saying that this competition is one that is as heavily reliant on masochism as it is any sort of organization or mobilization ability.

FFA would not stop mob camping. I wouldn't wait for a "on your mark. Get set. GO" as soon as a boss pops. Why bother doing that when you can prepare much farther in advance, and coordinate your moves in anticipation of other spawns? I'm thinking 3-4 boss mobs in advance. Why limit my guild's ability to be successful by getting bogged down waiting for one spawn while I sit where? In a designated "locker room" somewhere like WC to make it fair? What we now have to camp out in WC now? I can't sit my force in the zone and wait? You're now talking about MORE rules, hurting the guild that wants to be proactive and prepare way ahead of time and be ready when the boss spawns and put themselves in the best position possible for potential boss spawns after. FFA would lead to even more camping. Any guild worth it's salt would go the most efficient route, which is preparing way ahead in advance. There is no stopping it.

This will never be an instanced game. I think some people's sense of nostalgia is a bit cloudy. They don't realize that EQ's end game is terribly flawed. Sure it's fine when one guild dominates, but when there are 2 guilds on the same server putting in the exact same amount of effort, and doing anything it takes to kill bosses, the end result is what you now see on P99. Neither willing to blink and falling victim to their egos. Unwilling to admit a compromise needs to be made. That's why rotations were set up on some servers. The overall health and stability of the server became more important than feeding the powergamer egos of a certain set of hardcore players. P99 has a decision to make. Like it or not, you people need to decide the route this server is going to go. Currently, it's being run by powergamers with massive egos, so much so that it has become an unhealthy environment. if IB and DA fade out, other guilds are just going to take their place with the same attitude. "Do whatever it takes to kill the boss"

Haha I dunno man, I see a LOT of people with these tags now. And it is almost impossible to maintain quality when quantity starts becoming more and more important. I see both guilds kicking the obvious fuck ups, but I get the feeling the overall skill in both guilds has diminished significantly (well DA picking up some IV folks prolly was a step up from FB) since camping has become rampant.

You're assuming that everyone playing this game is a newbie. That is not the case. Most people are MMO veterans with many games/raids under their belt. There aren't many people from FB left on this server either. Maybe 5-6. The rest are post FB.

Chopped that up a little bit to be less wall of text quoted moreso than trying to take anything out of context. I am not arguing motivations here. I am arguing that as far as the general health of both guilds is concerned, this camping shit will eventually have to stop. I KNOW both guilds want the loot, and I KNOW that is the reason for the current situation, and I KNOW that so long as it provides the best chance for some guild to get said loot it will continue unless something is done to change it. You can call it being more proactive if you want. To me it's just abusing the spirit of the rules in place to find a way to guarantee yourselves first shot at a boss. *shrug*

There are people in both guilds that agree with you. It's why Nizzarr created the post to begin with. He recognizes that there is a problem. Do you want to know what the real problem is? EGO. IB set the precedent on what other guilds would have to do on this server a long time if they wanted boss mobs. They had a system down, which was relatively easy, that guaranteed them all the bosses. Nobody was willing to put in the effort for a long time to compete with them. Things change though. IB has never handled their position as #1 with any tact or grace. On the contrary, they rubbed it in your face with insults and taunts. They pissed off a lot of people to the point where they are now willing to do whatever it takes to kill a boss. Hence, we now have a standoff.

I don't begrudge IB for doing what they wanted to do. Keep everyone else from engaging a single mob, getting geared, and keeping their iron boot on the content. So another guild came along, and upped the stakes. Instead of a druid, they decided to just be rdy when the mob spawns. It's the inevitable conclusion to using a druid. It's called the "logical next step" to organize and mobilize faster than the other guy. There were many bumps in the road along the way. Failures and successes. Suddenly IB couldn't stay logged off and then login real quick to fight a boss for easy loot. They had to play by someone else's rules, and I understand why they don't like that. Except what you see here are rules they helped design. Not DA. So in reality, they are playing by their own rules, but that's not working out in their favor like it used to, so they want to change it to FFA. The problem is FFA won't make the problem go away. It's going to make it worse.