Server/Classic Observations

[Dersk]

Originally Posted by theguyy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me this is disgraceful and greed of this magnitude doesn't belong in classic EQ.

I get the feeling that if it didn't affect your loot, you wouldn't care what kind of system the group used. That's not intended as an insult or a dismissal, but that kind of outrage over a looting system has always struck me as suspicious.

It's better for a server to always be NBG than having someone swap between NBG and 'greed' groups and getting shafted in the process, true. It's more fun for someone to be able to earn and loot their own equipment than having to trade for it. This does not make people that insist on 'greed' rolls somehow less virtuous than those that demand loot rights for the items they can equip.

NBG assumes that:
a) the person needing it actually needs it as an upgrade as opposed to simply being able to use it
b) the person needing it won't sell it when a superior upgrade is obtained.
c) the person needing it will get more use out of the item than another group member will get use out of a different item obtained through trade.

A warrior with a obsidian shards that 'needs' a yak is just as greedy as the shadowknight using a brutechopper that wants to roll on a yak so he can trade it for a dark reaver or mithril two hander. Assessing need strictly on a can-equip basis is not a perfect system, and the hate for people that dare to use a different system is spawned by the very greed that is being attacked.

A particular situation that exacerbates the problems with NBG systems comes into play with Kunark and Velious where casters see several spells that can only be accessed through defeating raid targets while seeing predominately melee-oriented loot drops in groups. While this is certainly arguable, it is much easier for a melee to substitute group gear for raid gear than it is a caster to substitute for raid gear and raid spells, and NBG rolls ignore that problem because the wizard can't use the jaundiced bone bracer or whatever.

I've turned down loot rights based on NBG because it wasn't enough of an upgrade and I would have sold it rather than use it (and lost the roll). I've won greed rolls and let someone else in the group loot it because that person 'needed' it. If that makes me a greedy person because I used 'greed' rolls in those instances where I didn't want to equip something, then I have a few choice expletives I'd like you to hear.

[Arclanz]

I'm glad you reminded me. I quit mid kunark (no one was in skyfire yet). In Chardock, a shield dropped; and I got into an argument with an enchanter over it. I wanted a paladin in the group (not me) to get it. He was arguing that a shaman in his group wanted it for "resist" purposes.

As I was the multi-group leader, I dictated that the Paladin got it and also informed everyone that I was quitting EQ due to what I saw as increasing greed. I did quit, but like everyone else returned shortly thereafter. But things were never the same.

So I've come a long way to succumb to the GBN point of view.

Just like this site defines what a camp is; I think they should also define that ALL groups are greed-rolling unless the group members involved vote otherwise. In the case of ties, greed-rolling wins out.

[mmiles8]

Just like this site defines what a camp is; I think they should also define that ALL groups are greed-rolling unless the group members involved vote otherwise. In the case of ties, greed-rolling wins out.

Greetings, Arclanz. Have you seen the Hobbes' Leviathan I just got in?

[Kazzok]

Originally Posted by Dersk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A particular situation that exacerbates the problems with NBG systems comes into play with Kunark and Velious where casters see several spells that can only be accessed through defeating raid targets while seeing predominately melee-oriented loot drops in groups. While this is certainly arguable, it is much easier for a melee to substitute group gear for raid gear than it is a caster to substitute for raid gear and raid spells, and NBG rolls ignore that problem because the wizard can't use the jaundiced bone bracer or whatever.

I've turned down loot rights based on NBG because it wasn't enough of an upgrade and I would have sold it rather than use it (and lost the roll). I've won greed rolls and let someone else in the group loot it because that person 'needed' it. If that makes me a greedy person because I used 'greed' rolls in those instances where I didn't want to equip something, then I have a few choice expletives I'd like you to hear.

QFT

I was a Wizard at that time, and this is so true. I killed many dragons and many juggs for months without seeing Sunstrike. Eventually, I bought it. Buying it is sometimes the only way you're ever gonna get it. And that means you've gotta get some loot to sell.

You know, my recollection of the classic-SoV era on live was that it was very melee-oriented, so maybe that NBG thing makes sense if you're into conspiracies [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Dantes]

Most groups I have been in have honored need before greed. I'm always an advocate for it, and will either voluntarily sit out of rolls on items I can't use - or roll on them and give them away to another group member if I win (if there's no other option because everyone wants to greed roll).

I don't really think need before greed stops at a certain plat value. That's kind of stupid. From the perspective of a Warrior, I can't farm plat worth a damn, but several other classes can. Paying 7k for a Yak or 15k for an FBSS is a tall order when your main is a Warrior and you can't play 40 hours a week.

If everyone did the need before greed thing, YES we would camp items that we don't need because it wouldn't take as long as it does to get what we need. What reason do I have to camp the FBSS if I already have one? I'm free at that point to tank for a group camping a caster item.

Somebody said it should be one way or the other server wide, while that's a pipe dream I sort of agree with it. You can't just change it to suit your needs. If we all embraced need before greed, we would get what we need. If we all just greed rolled and sold everything, we would all make plat and buy what we need. If we do a combination of both, expectations get set and people get disappointed.

[Mournblade]

If my group let me grab some phat lewtz that I could actually use, I would be more than happy to offer up the item that was replaced for the group to roll for. That only seems fair to me.

[mmiles8]

I don't really think need before greed stops at a certain plat value. That's kind of stupid. From the perspective of a Warrior, I can't farm plat worth a damn, but several other classes can. Paying 7k for a Yak or 15k for an FBSS is a tall order when your main is a Warrior and you can't play 40 hours a week.

There are many many ways to earn plat that don't involve killing HGs or winning rolls on loot.

Get creative, next time you feel frustrated with the amount of plat you aren't making, take the time to figure out a way to make it. Look at what people are buying, browse allakhazam/eqtraders and brainstorm, find a niche, diversify your market so that your existence does not hinge on any one thing, build on your strengths and work with others to fill out your weaknesses.

I had made 2k and mastered most tradeskills by level 16, all while helping people lower than me afford their basics and outfit themselves. I'm terrible at EC and haggling. I had others do my selling, cut them shares while I went out finding new deals and items of value. Become a part of a flow, spend some make more.

[oldhead]

Originally Posted by theguyy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty new to this server and a few things surprised me as a classic server, both good and bad.

The most shocking thing for me is how WoWish the community is in game.
Back in classic every group I've been in did Need before Greed and here it's the opposite. In fact, out of the dozens of groups I've joined only 1 didn't greed everything that dropped(including full guild groups). To me this is disgraceful and greed of this magnitude doesn't belong in classic EQ.

Most of my classic groups were greed. Some did NBG but most were need unless a guild group. I like greed groups better for many reason that would take too long to type. To me NBG in a PUG is more greedy than Greed looting.


NBG in PUG is more WoW like to me.

[Breuce]

On my server, it seemed to progress pretty quickly kunark era from mostly NBG to FFA. And I don't think that was really a terrible move: when it comes down to it, a lot of classes get hosed in straight NBG, and this likely makes specific camps a lot harder to actually find the required classes for, etc.

Basically, I just always insisted that the loot 'rules' were set upon joining, and enforced (hopefully by myself, or somebody i trusted, but generally people seem pretty reasonable) I used to put together groups with fairly strange loot rules, but as long as they were fair and set in the beginning, people almost always played nice, and I think that's the most important part of the whole deal: If the entire group agrees on NBG rules, or whatever <i>before the mobs start dying</i>, it takes a ninja-looter to mess things up, not just somebody deciding that they deserve big_ticket_item_01 when it actually drops.

I would bet that it's almost inevitable that sometime in the kunark era, FFA will become the predominant loot model, but until then I think people just need to make sure everything is taken care of beforehand.

[theguyy]

Originally Posted by Dersk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I get the feeling that if it didn't affect your loot, you wouldn't care what kind of system the group used. That's not intended as an insult or a dismissal, but that kind of outrage over a looting system has always struck me as suspicious.

It's better for a server to always be NBG than having someone swap between NBG and 'greed' groups and getting shafted in the process, true. It's more fun for someone to be able to earn and loot their own equipment than having to trade for it. This does not make people that insist on 'greed' rolls somehow less virtuous than those that demand loot rights for the items they can equip.

NBG assumes that:
a) the person needing it actually needs it as an upgrade as opposed to simply being able to use it
b) the person needing it won't sell it when a superior upgrade is obtained.
c) the person needing it will get more use out of the item than another group member will get use out of a different item obtained through trade.

A warrior with a obsidian shards that 'needs' a yak is just as greedy as the shadowknight using a brutechopper that wants to roll on a yak so he can trade it for a dark reaver or mithril two hander. Assessing need strictly on a can-equip basis is not a perfect system, and the hate for people that dare to use a different system is spawned by the very greed that is being attacked.

A particular situation that exacerbates the problems with NBG systems comes into play with Kunark and Velious where casters see several spells that can only be accessed through defeating raid targets while seeing predominately melee-oriented loot drops in groups. While this is certainly arguable, it is much easier for a melee to substitute group gear for raid gear than it is a caster to substitute for raid gear and raid spells, and NBG rolls ignore that problem because the wizard can't use the jaundiced bone bracer or whatever.

I've turned down loot rights based on NBG because it wasn't enough of an upgrade and I would have sold it rather than use it (and lost the roll). I've won greed rolls and let someone else in the group loot it because that person 'needed' it. If that makes me a greedy person because I used 'greed' rolls in those instances where I didn't want to equip something, then I have a few choice expletives I'd like you to hear.

Gotta love people justifying their own overwhelming greed.