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  #1  
Old 06-14-2013, 03:08 AM
tops419 tops419 is offline
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Wow, that was a long thread to read-

I don't think a completely non-instanced game can work; this is 2013, not 2000. If there is a mob which drops something valuable people will camp it to no end. I think Project1999 is a very good illustration of the failures of a non-instanced world in today's world.
People will take it overboard and despite how most "normal" people think that the players whom camp these items will eventually get enough and move-on, they will not. Seriously, look at the people who were camping the same items 2 years ago on this server... many, many are still here camping the same items. Why? I'm not quite sure but they are persistent and strangely dedicated to "earning" game currency and such.
Also, gold farming is only becoming more and more widespread. In a game which will surely not regulate multiboxing, I think it's naive to think that goldfarmers will not have many, many bots going at once, locking down several important camps.

I think vanilla wow (comparing it to later versions is really apples to oranges) held a GREAT balance as far as instancing dungeons, yet still having a huge distribution of gear. It was rare to see anyone with more than a few things the same as yourself, unless you were sort of endgame, which is equally true of classic EQ.

And, as far as seeing everyone wear the same thing as yourself--- Don't you think EQ was pretty much one of the worst games ever in that sense?

I really hope they do have an in-game store. I have played modern eq a mild amount and I thought the store is a great way to allow a huge population increase from F2P players, whilst also increasing the playability for those willing to spend $. It's not truly Play-to-win as only mounts, xp potions, and bags are sold (among other cosmetic things). There is no "instant level", "instant heal", or such. I'm sure many folks are playing p1999 not only because of the great game it is, but because it also doesn't affect their pocketbook.

Last, if the store gives people the ability to buy platinum or whatever the currency is, good. This further alleviates the burden off the rest of the population to financially support the structure of the game and significantly reduces the incentive for illicit RMT to occur which can destroy a community. There just needs to be significant ways to remove money from the game such as mounts, casino's ( Which I think are very fun and immersive, if executed correctly), spells, and cosmetics. Speaking of such, I think epic mounts in vanilla wow were probably one of the best executed methods of removing tons of currency from the game in a way which did not feel silly (such as the shadowhaven casino) and gave the player a sense of value.
  #2  
Old 06-14-2013, 03:27 AM
tops419 tops419 is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Mar 2012
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And just to pose another question for those completely against instanced zones or encounters of any sort...
EQ is probably one of the largest worlds ever created. Yet, do you honestly feel there's enough game to go around for everyone who wants to play on this server? I mean, I understand that many people will respond with "well if they can't hang, then F-them" or "they don't deserve it" or "Thats the fun" or something with that general sentiment. But, the single most important thing to remember is that for a game to be successful, have dedicated devs, have a decent population, and strong financial support it cannot be a game of attrition. There must be some balance struck between offering all players a sense of accomplishment and opportunity and the hardcore players a level of separation and superiority.
If you cannot agree on some middle ground between these two things, you are forever destined to exclusively play on underdeveloped, underfunded, and underpopulated games such as P1999 or Wurm Online or the like.

All that being said. P1999 is a really great, nostalgic experience. Yet, the moment you choose to try to camp some select item you've been wanting, complete an epic, or raid in general; you find that there is not an opportunity for the <20 hour a week player.
  #3  
Old 06-14-2013, 03:39 AM
Rhuma7 Rhuma7 is offline
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lol @ buying currency and not being "pay to win"

You new to MMOs? If i can start from scratch day 1 and buy 10 million platinum out of thin air on p99 what do you think is going to happen to p99 and the economy?

WTS Flowing black silk sash 150 mil pst

Lets do some math.

1000 players x 100k = 100,000,000

Lets compare to a mainstream MMO like WoW back in the day, per server.

5000 x 100k = 500,000,000

How much would a company charge for currency? $10 for 1k? $90 for 100k? I know people that spend THOUSANDS on in-game stores on EMULATED servers.

$1000 @$90/100k*1000 players = 1,111,000,000. out of thin, fucking, air.

End result: no.
Last edited by Rhuma7; 06-14-2013 at 03:48 AM..
  #4  
Old 06-14-2013, 03:57 AM
tops419 tops419 is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhuma7 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
lol @ buying currency and not being "pay to win"

You new to MMOs? If i can start from scratch day 1 and buy 10 million platinum out of thin air on p99 what do you think is going to happen to p99 and the economy?

WTS Flowing black silk sash 150 mil pst
You 100% can buy as much platinum as you want on P1999 or any other game you choose to. It will just be an illicit transaction that starts a chain of events that really works to ruin the server and its economy. If purchased from the server and offset with sufficient ways to remove currency from the game, it does not have "such" a bad effect on the game.

I like to think of it like legalizing marijuana- People will do it anyway, by legalizing it, you reduce the burden on those that must regulate it, reduce the incentive to obtain it illicitly, and provide financial support to the system. Of course there are downsides, but in what situation aren't there?

Also, assuming you pay 10$ per 100k plat, what is that, like 1000$ for your 10 mil plat? How many people do you think would be willing to spend that much money for currency? Not enough to throw the economy into the disarray you mentioned.
  #5  
Old 06-14-2013, 04:01 AM
Rhuma7 Rhuma7 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops419 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You 100% can buy as much platinum as you want on P1999 or any other game you choose to. It will just be an illicit transaction that starts a chain of events that really works to ruin the server and its economy. If purchased from the server and offset with sufficient ways to remove currency from the game, it does not have "such" a bad effect on the game.

I like to think of it like legalizing marijuana- People will do it anyway, by legalizing it, you reduce the burden on those that must regulate it, reduce the incentive to obtain it illicitly, and provide financial support to the system. Of course there are downsides, but in what situation aren't there?

Also, assuming you pay 10$ per 100k plat, what is that, like 1000$ for your 10 mil plat? How many people do you think would be willing to spend that much money for currency? Not enough to throw the economy into the disarray you mentioned.
The difference between marijuana and in-game store selling currency is the pot doesnt just magically appear out of thin fucking air.

This isn't even a discussion or theory. Games arent flocking to free2play with in-game shops because people dont spend money.

You give a retard an opportunity to get anything he wants for a credit card # and his ass is doing it. Already seen it happen on EMULATED SERVERS for christ sake.

Plus its not just a one time thing, $10 here, $50 next paycheck, $250 for little timmys birthday.

plusplus You cant retire buying Marijuana and trading it for a mansion in malibu for a months work at mcdonalds.
Last edited by Rhuma7; 06-14-2013 at 04:05 AM..
  #6  
Old 06-14-2013, 04:21 AM
tops419 tops419 is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhuma7 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The difference between marijuana and in-game store selling currency is the pot doesnt just magically appear out of thin fucking air.

This isn't even a discussion or theory. Games arent flocking to free2play with in-game shops because people dont spend money.

You give a retard an opportunity to get anything he wants for a credit card # and his ass is doing it. Already seen it happen on EMULATED SERVERS for christ sake.

Plus its not just a one time thing, $10 here, $50 next paycheck, $250 for little timmys birthday.

plusplus You cant retire buying Marijuana and trading it for a mansion in malibu for a months work at mcdonalds.
I understand your first point, but the others don't make sense to me. Of course people spend money, that was one of reasons I said I support the F2P model. Some people pay and those that don't still are given a place within a well-supported game and the population is increased.
No-Drop/attuneable/bind-on-equip items are a great way to negate the effects of inflation. I can't think of a single game that doesn't embrace this.

I do not understand your last sentence at all.
  #7  
Old 06-14-2013, 04:27 AM
Rhuma7 Rhuma7 is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops419 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I understand your first point, but the others don't make sense to me. Of course people spend money, that was one of reasons I said I support the F2P model. Some people pay and those that don't still are given a place within a well-supported game and the population is increased.
No-Drop/attuneable/bind-on-equip items are a great way to negate the effects of inflation. I can't think of a single game that doesn't embrace this.

I do not understand your last sentence at all.
Lets say on a given day on p99, people loot a total of, 5k platinum.

over a month thats only 150k.

Lets say we have an ingame store that sells platinum.

The entire economy is based on how much platinum people actually have and items are listed at prices people can/will buy said item.

If theres an influx of 1 billion platinum on the first day, nobody but people who bought platinum will be able to afford items with this huge influx of platinum in the market.

The only way to compete is to buy. Pay2win.


EDIT: As far as retiring in a mansion in malibu on a mcdonalds salary. The dollar is much more valuable and a persons time is even more valuable. It only makes sense to skip being a scrub and shelling out a few bucks to completely deck out a character and within a year of having buyable currency you wont be trading with currency, it will be traded in stone of jordans. Which is a sure sign you fucked up.
Last edited by Rhuma7; 06-14-2013 at 04:31 AM..
  #8  
Old 06-14-2013, 04:18 AM
JurisDictum JurisDictum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tops419 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
And just to pose another question for those completely against instanced zones or encounters of any sort...
EQ is probably one of the largest worlds ever created. Yet, do you honestly feel there's enough game to go around for everyone who wants to play on this server? I mean, I understand that many people will respond with "well if they can't hang, then F-them" or "they don't deserve it" or "Thats the fun" or something with that general sentiment. But, the single most important thing to remember is that for a game to be successful, have dedicated devs, have a decent population, and strong financial support it cannot be a game of attrition. There must be some balance struck between offering all players a sense of accomplishment and opportunity and the hardcore players a level of separation and superiority.
If you cannot agree on some middle ground between these two things, you are forever destined to exclusively play on underdeveloped, underfunded, and underpopulated games such as P1999 or Wurm Online or the like.

All that being said. P1999 is a really great, nostalgic experience. Yet, the moment you choose to try to camp some select item you've been wanting, complete an epic, or raid in general; you find that there is not an opportunity for the <20 hour a week player.
These are legitimate problems with non-instanced MMORPGs. These issues have been largely avoided by the modern incarnations of the genre. But to suggest that instancing is the only way to solve these issues demonstrates a complete lack of imagination.
How large is Unrest really?. Is the FBSS bottleneck in classic EQ really the best a non-instance MMO can hope for? Is there something about open world raid encounters that inherently makes them only viable for the most hardcore of gamers? Or is this just some of the problems that exist now that can be overcome...
Instancing, in my mind, always was a lazy fix to a complex problem. Just give them all their own dungeon. No need to ambitiously make a huge dungeon larger than Dreadlands, filled with all kinds of unique mobs and items. We ca just give everyone their own copy of a KC crawl to the boss.
The majority of the industry simply has not been trying. Why would they? Most modern MMO gamers seem to have no idea what they are missing.
Unlike the problems of open world content, which can be fixed simply by providing more viable content (including removing the severe bottlenecks that exist in EQ); the problems with instancing are inherent in its design. Its the difference between a training simulation in the matrix and an actual alternate digital world.
Last edited by JurisDictum; 06-14-2013 at 04:39 AM..
  #9  
Old 06-14-2013, 04:50 AM
tops419 tops419 is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
These are legitimate problems with non-instanced MMORPGs. These issues have been largely avoided by the modern incarnations of the genre. But to suggest that instancing is the only way to solve these issues demonstrates a complete lack of imagination.
How large is Unrest really?. Is the FBSS bottleneck in classic EQ really the best a non-instance MMO can hope for? Is there something about open world raid encounters that inherently makes them only viable for the most hardcore of gamers? Or is this just some of the problems that exist now that can be overcome...
Instancing, in my mind, always was a lazy fix to a complex problem. Just give them all their own dungeon. No need to ambitiously make a huge dungeon larger than Dreadlands, filled with all kinds of unique mobs and items. We ca just give everyone their own copy of a KC crawl to the boss.
The majority of the industry simply has not been trying. Why would they? The majority of modern MMO gamers seem to have no idea what they are missing.
Unlike the problems of open world content, which can be fixed simply by providing more viable content (including removing the severe bottlenecks that exist in EQ); the problems with instancing are inherent in its design. Its the difference between a training simulation in the matrix and an actual alternate digital world.
I agree that many forms of instancing are lazy fixes, but do you think that by creating a world or dungeon that is so massive, you are effectively creating some of the same problems instances do? Like making players feel disconnected or decreasing player interaction?
To kind of explain my vision of an instance:
I'd love to see a dungeon like Sebilis, where a group would work their way down to the Emperor's room, to enter a 72-hour lockout 5 level difference instance which features ~15 mins of clearing and a chance at killing the emperor. Sort of a Boss instance, with a long lockout, at the depth of a dungeon. This stops people from camping the same items for days/weeks/months and instead encourages them to do many, many dungeons.
Perhaps make major world bosses such as Trakanon a 10day lockout. Instances such as Plane of Fear a 7 day lockout. Perhaps 10 man raids vs 20 man raids with no scaling of the mobs. Doing it with less rewards you with more?
Regardless, I agree the mass/indiscriminate instancing seen in many games is inexcusable. I think there is a smart way to implement it though.
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