Are there any tools to simulate/gauge DPS?

[frefaln]

Thanks Spirou, I'll check that out also. I'll tell ya though, GamParse is fantastic. I love the way it puts every fight into nice lists, graphs, group-member breakouts, etc.

If anyone's curious, it turns out Burning Rapier primary and Gloomwater Harpoon offhand was noticeably higher DPS, I'd say between 10% and 15% just going off a couple hours in Mistmoore. Yeah, my backstab numbers are lower but so what — it's still the more effective combo and my overall DPS was consistently at the top of the group list (sometimes #2, damn monks). There was another rogue in the group using harpoon as primary and was consistently at the bottom of the list, but in fairness I don't know what her offhand was.

In summary, fellow rogues: if someone tells you that higher-damage weps always trumps speed in primary, don't just accept it as gospel. Test it. My scenario has proven to me that speed kills.

Also, what Dersk said above is correct: offhand swings are not dependent on primary swings or hits (two people tried to /tell me that since I started this thread tonight). Per Dersk's suggestion I invited them both to put a lightstone in primary and see if their offhand never triggered. They just laughed but I went ahead and tested it for them. Sure enough I was hitting with offhand just fine [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Cribanox]

So then how does it work? You have the same two weapons, but keeping the faster one in primary is the best way? Or is it keeping the best Dps-ratio weapon in primary the best way to go?

[frefaln]

The faster wep in the primary was better for my situation, but I won't claim a singular rule for all scenarios. In my case the rapier is much faster than the harpoon so it makes sense that it did considerably more damage as the primary — primary is a guaranteed swing per each delay, offhand is conditional pending a dual-wield check per delay. Devs, please step in and correct me if I'm wrong here.

At this point I'm not buying into the "rules" about ratio. Not yet, anyway. If you've got two hella-fast weapons there are probably cases where speed trumps ratio. Based on what I've seen in parsing tonight I'd rather have an offhand of 8/26 than a 12/36 for example. The latter is the better ratio but it results in far fewer DW checks (and consequently, swings).

Even setting the parsing aside, when I swapped the weps and had the harpoon as primary, everything simply felt more sluggish. Sure enough, the numbers backed it up.

[Cribanox]

I would assume that the better ratio weapon 13/36 would be muxh better than the 8/26, even though you have fewer swings overall, when you do hit you hit for much more to make up for it.

[frefaln]

Well, I think that's the trick — finding the threshold where speed can be sacrificed for ratio because the higher damage makes up for lost swings. I'm not sure there's a singular rule that can be applied across the board.

[Dersk]

Originally Posted by Cribanox [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So then how does it work? You have the same two weapons, but keeping the faster one in primary is the best way? Or is it keeping the best Dps-ratio weapon in primary the best way to go?

It depends. A fine steel dagger won't beat out much of anything worth looting even though it's one of the fastest weapons available.

The following is heavily influenced by damage tables, attack buffs, and mob AC, but it's an easy way to look at the weapons for comparison: multiply the weapon damage by two then add the damage bonus. Divide that number by the delay for a ratio appropriate to the primary. For the secondary, multiply the damage by two but do not add the damage bonus.

My mind has drawn a blank on weapons in classic, so I'll use fine steel as an example at level 50 (8 damage bonus).

Scimitar: 5 dmg, 24 delay. Ratio in primary: 0.75. Ratio in secondary: 0.42

Longsword: 6 dmg, 28 delay. Primary: 0.71. Secondary: 0.43

Fine steel dagger: 3 dmg 19 delay. Primary: 0.74. Secondary: 0.32.

The longsword has the better dmg/delay ratio, so it's the best weapon for offhand. However, even though the fine steel dagger is much faster, its pitiful ratio means that the slower scimitar is better in the primary and secondary.

In truth, low level characters would benefit more from a damage bonus, but since the damage bonus doesn't even shot up until 28, this is the easiest method that doesn't demand very involved equations.

[Sckrilla]

Glad this thread came up and you put some facts behind the hearsay, Kebbon.

Being a Rogue with the Gloompoon/BR combo, I've received so much flak for main-equipping BR and having Gloom in off-hand. I've always thought having Gloom in main-hand felt sluggish and your tests have just further proven that. Thanks for taking the time to run some tests, as I see a lot of Rogues with the exact same combo throughout their 30s.

[Reiker]

Yes... your primary hand gets a damage bonus. Every time you swing your primary weapon, you are guaranteed to hit for at least whatever that damage is, unless you miss of course. If your damage bonus is 11, then you'll always hit for x damage + 11. Off hand doesn't receive this bonus, which is why "fastest in primary" is suggested so often. The faster you swing your primary, the more times you're applying the damage bonus. This is why I hated the Wurmslayer. I believe it had the standard 11 damage bonus at 60, but swung on a 4 second delay. That means in a minute, without haste, and all hits connecting, you gain +165 damage through damage bonus. One minute, no misses, no haste, a fine steel dagger gains +347.37 damage through damage bonus. This is why the Mosscovered Twig was so badass at 3/10, that's +660 damage every minute (no haste, no missing) from damage bonus alone.

There are certain circumstances where best ratio in primary and fastest in secondary is more dps though, depending on how bad your fast weapon is, and if you're a rogue. This is why parsing is nice.

And lol if you still think your arms don't swing independently.

[Hasbinbad]

Highest damage possible in primary, ratio is king in offhand.
..and lol if you still think your arms don't swing independently..

frefaln, your dps went up because of your procs, which are bad for a rogue, unless you enjoy dying. Don't use procs. Put your highest damage weapon in your mainhand, and stfu.

[frefaln]

Sorry Has but you're wrong [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The parser lets you isolate fights based however you like, and yes, I isolated sets of fights which had no procs and the DPS was still higher with BR in the primary and Harpoon in the offhand.

And I never said arms didn't swing independently, I said the opposite. Oh, and stfu right back atcha.