Game Mechanics: Warrior aggro procs are probably wrong

[khanable]

Originally Posted by spoils [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

will war epic finally regain bis status as it should be as an epic?

I don't think so. From one of the links above:

The Warriors are also slightly dissapointed with the primary held 1HS, as it at its current ratio, is not as good as currently available weapons (amiditly from places like VP), and cannot keep up the taunt factor that they require

I think it sucked until they made it +500 hate

[pasi]

Pure Hate only became superior due to percentage mods for it.

AC debuffs remain very high aggro. -11 AC is essentially the same as Shadow Vortex which you can look at the numbers for. Add on the 100 DD component. Then, add on an ATK debuff component (don't have the hate numbers for this).

The huge buff would come in the form of debuffing mob ATK by 40. -ATK behaves a lot like undercap AC.

[pasi]

I don't think it's Hate portion will be above anything that's adding a significant amount of poison counters. So, I wouldn't call it absolute BiS from a threat perspective. I don't think it's BiS from a hate perspective even now though.

The benefit comes from the other stats it provides (which with the change will be -20 HP per blade, but plus -40 ATK and the AC debuff).

[khanable]

I see what you're saying now. I interpreted it as they'll see a threat buff.

Though it makes you wonder: why'd they remove the ac/atk debuff? Overpowered?

[Splorf22]

So basically you think the hate value will be roughly the same, and -40ATK is absolutely huge when it lands. I wonder why Vonhammer said it was poor.

[pasi]

An -11 AC component is basically Shadow Vortex which was the aggro spell of choice for SKs once Disease Cloud got gutted. It doesn't have the recourse effect, but buffing is minimal aggro anyways. It's not unreasonable to assume the ATK debuff component will be more aggro than buff recourse anyhow.

I can dig on The Wayback Machine if really needed, but AC debuffs are very good aggro up until PoP (?). And even then, Vanazir was still pretty ok for tanks.

http://thecrossroadstavern8833.yuku....5805/SK-advice

The numbers might not mirror live, but even if you use your numbers for shadow vortex and add the DD portion, it's going to still be solid threat.

[khanable]

Hmm. Hard to believe, seems early reports of the epic were pretty bad:

http://web.archive.org/web/200101090...ML/000144.html

The Warrior Particle Weapon has been found (see <http://eq.castersrealm.com/> for the stats, which suck. The two 1h slashers have delay of 24, which makes them utterly useless in group play, as the warrior will NOT be able to taunt mobs away from the other players in the group. The 2h slasher is the best 2h slasher in the game, but that doesn't matter because 2h slash is irrelevant in group play.
The reactions have been amusing. All the lower-level warriors are drooling over the stats, and all the warriors high enough to do the quest are majorly POed because they understand the stats make the weapon useless.

I'm just starting to think hate generation worked very differently back then -- their big complaint was the 24 delay..

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hmm. Hard to believe, seems early reports of the epic were pretty bad:

http://web.archive.org/web/200101090...ML/000144.html



I'm just starting to think hate generation worked very differently back then -- their big complaint was the 24 delay..

hi hi. i will make a comment if u guys dont mind. if u guys played a war in velious , and didint joined a uber guild (wich i was in magna charta solusek ro server).

what was the most easiest best solid agro weapon for a warrior?.

the answer and maybe u guys remember it was:

Frostbringer


why? because the debuff+dd it have nothing much else .

/bow to loraen u in the good way.if need some help just contact me in game, english is so bad than i fear forum gramma nazys into a serius subject like this.

[pasi]

Yes, I'm not arguing people's opinions of the weapon. The 30/30/60 stats are terrible compared to other epics stats. In addition, a delay of 24 was awful for threat on live. On here, people don't seem to use tanking weapons without procs; whereas 2x Lamentation held aggro pretty well on live. From a design standpoint, it is a disappointing epic.

It get's difficult because I don't know the server's code. I don't know what code is residual that just hasn't been noticed. For example, proced stuns eventually (stealth added) got a 400 hate cap on live for their stun component. Casted spells did not have this cap. Some spells created more hate if they were a class that could cast them. There are exceptions to this rule like Static Blow. There's a ton of random shit like this that you run into when you're trying to figure out threat. Even worse, we don't know when a lot of this stuff was even added to the code. Worst yet, this server is designed to mimic Kunark on live (and does a fucking awesome job of doing such).

If you're bored, take a look at this: http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/stun_e.htm

Now, that's kind of a tangent.

What I am arguing is the proc's aggro from a basic mechanics standpoint. If the proc is indeed 100 DD and -11 AC, it is going to give the threat of those 2 components (from what I've read/experienced, ATK debuffs aren't much threat). This really isn't saying much. I can link you dozens of threads that will tell you AC debuffs are fantastic aggro.

Or do you believe that this weapon is the lone example in the history of the game of a proc with an AC debuff that wasn't large aggro?

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm just starting to think hate generation worked very differently back then -- their big complaint was the 24 delay..

Lets look at primary weapons and divide their melee hate per swing by their delay:

Feverblade: 11+11 = 22/20 = 1.11
Jade Mace: 9+11 = 20/18 = 1.11
Howling Cutlass: 10+11 = 21/19 = 1.10
Lamentation: 9+11 = 20/19 = 1.05
Epic: 14+11 = 25/24 = 1.05
Sarnak Warhammer: 9+11/20 = 1.00

So from a melee hate perspective the epic is quite mediocre. That is what the post is complaining about. Couple that with the fact that the blue sword doesn't have an aggro proc, and a warrior using the epic for group tanking is going to be way behind a warrior using two proccing VP weapons. Even for raiding aggro was more important without the midnight mallet.

Meanwhile on P1999, we have had a ton of overpowered bosses that needed insane HP (Bee, quadding Hoshkar, etc) and mallet charges to make aggro irrelevant. So the stats on the epic meant more than pure hate/sec. And even here I think the blue epic is still worthless, which is why I'm trying to get a Sword of the Shissar. As a warrior you simply cannot afford to give up 1/3 of your aggro procs. It's just not a good idea.

And finally, I'm guessing that in Kunark they weren't quite up to speed on parsing and realizing just how good a -40ATK debuff should be. As Maurice told me earlier, Verant introduced ATK debuffs in Luclin, and they were so good that they were never upgraded over something like 10 years.

Also Arteker don't worry about your english. Take Lanzellot as your model!