How OP is ench?

[Triiz]

In late Velious, a rich geared monk is super OP too. With the mass amounts of plat and clickies like Puppet Strings on this server, there's few things an Enchanter can solo that a geared monk can't.

Monk also has the advantage of FD to break camps, where as Enchanters are usually using Calm which even with 255 CHA will have a fair amount of crit resists and usually if you get a crit resist on the first mob you're lulling you're either capping, trying to mez and camp, or dead. Add to this the near certainty that charm will break at the worst possible moment, usually as 5 mobs are charging you after a crit resist.

A monk with plat can charm, blind, root, 50% slow, complete heal, DS themselves, insta-cast Rune 4, mass amounts of 300hp heals, on top of the instant 25% of HP Mend heals every 6 min. Even without all of the clickies they can still solo a ton of high end mobs.

[Dulu]

Originally Posted by Triiz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In late Velious, a rich geared monk is super OP too. With the mass amounts of plat and clickies like Puppet Strings on this server, there's few things an Enchanter can solo that a geared monk can't.

Monk also has the advantage of FD to break camps, where as Enchanters are usually using Calm which even with 255 CHA will have a fair amount of crit resists and usually if you get a crit resist on the first mob you're lulling you're either capping, trying to mez and camp, or dead. Add to this the near certainty that charm will break at the worst possible moment, usually as 5 mobs are charging you after a crit resist.

A monk with plat can charm, blind, root, 50% slow, complete heal, DS themselves, insta-cast Rune 4, mass amounts of 300hp heals, on top of the instant 25% of HP Mend heals every 6 min. Even without all of the clickies they can still solo a ton of high end mobs.

Yeah, the difference is you're talking about less than 0.5% of the Monk population. Where as Enchanters, particularly on the TLP's (where death is meaningless) can be as effective right out of the box, naked.

I think the most pressing question is, "If you removed X from Enchanter, are they still OP?" if you answer yes, then they certainly are OP with X intact.

X could be:

-Charm
-Mez
-Clarity
-Haste / STR / Aug

Combined with the fact that Enchanters are almost entirely gear independent, and you have a broken class.

[Kohedron]

Definitely super good and definitely one of the best if not the best class when it comes to group/solo

Wouldn't go quite as far as that guy did though

[Triiz]

Originally Posted by Dulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, the difference is you're talking about less than 0.5% of the Monk population. Where as Enchanters, particularly on the TLP's (where death is meaningless) can be as effective right out of the box, naked.

I think the most pressing question is, "If you removed X from Enchanter, are they still OP?" if you answer yes, then they certainly are OP with X intact.

X could be:

-Charm
-Mez
-Clarity
-Haste / STR / Aug

Combined with the fact that Enchanters are almost entirely gear independent, and you have a broken class.

I'm mostly talking about level 60. I don't know anything about TLP's, but on p99 a lot more than 0.5% of the level 60 monk population has access to most of those clickies excluding bladestoppers and Bio orb. Maybe puppet strings, but a lot of people in casual guilds have puppet strings and/or 200k now. Slows, roots, DS, 300hp heal, Complete heal are all relatively cheap or easily farmed and can make up for things like lack of TOV gear.

Sure Enchanter's are more powerful naked and at low levels. An Enchanter with like 100 CHA is going to have a shit load of charm breaks and no HP to survive them though.

[Dulu]

Originally Posted by Triiz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm mostly talking about level 60. I don't know anything about TLP's, but on p99 a lot more than 0.5% of the level 60 monk population has access to most of those clickies excluding bladestoppers and Bio orb. Maybe puppet strings, but a lot of people in casual guilds have puppet strings and/or 200k now. Slows, roots, DS, 300hp heal, Complete heal are all relatively cheap or easily farmed and can make up for things like lack of TOV gear.

Sure Enchanter's are more powerful naked and at low levels. An Enchanter with like 100 CHA is going to have a shit load of charm breaks and no HP to survive them though.

The math for CHA's impact on charm is shoddy at best.

Also, if you need to invest 200k worth of gear onto a class to make it compete with a naked version of another class. Perhaps there is an underlying issue we should address?

[Triiz]

Originally Posted by Dulu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The math for CHA's impact on charm is shoddy at best.

Are you talking about TLP's? On p99 the difference between Enchanter charming on a CR with low 100's CHA and Enchanter charming with 255 CHA is night and day.

Comparing naked classes doesn't really make sense. A naked Bard can sustain way more DPS than a naked Rogue even without the bard charming. Does that make bard a super OP DPS class?

Classic Everquest was never about every class having the exact same level of power, especially naked.

[dbouya]

I mean in anarchy online enchanters (renamed to bureaucrats) have everything enchanters have but they also get an experience gain group buff :-p

Although a level 10 mage can also just be buffed to summon a level 50 mage pet :-p (engineer/meta).

AO basically just cribbed EQ1 (came out 1-2 years later) only it was sci-fi and way more janky (although AO basically pioneered everything sony stole back for LDON in the base game).

[Dulu]

Originally Posted by Triiz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you talking about TLP's? On p99 the difference between Enchanter charming on a CR with low 100's CHA and Enchanter charming with 255 CHA is night and day.

Comparing naked classes doesn't really make sense. A naked Bard can sustain way more DPS than a naked Rogue even without the bard charming. Does that make bard a super OP DPS class?

Classic Everquest was never about every class having the exact same level of power, especially naked.

Show me the evidence.


It does make sense. Not naked necessarily, but with the same amount of cash invested in them. You can't compare a stock enchanter to a monk with 200,000 platinum worth of toys invested into it. Not to mention, in a fresh world where these items either A.) Don't exist, or B.) are much more expensive. AKA,
a vacuum.



A fresh player rolling a monk, or an enchanter right now? Enchanter blows the monk out of the water in every conceivable situation.

[Canelek]

Not sure if anyone has gathered any numerical evidence on CHA, but it is pretty easy to have a subjective test by removing CHA gear and trying to charm the same things you've been XPing on. Charm "seems" much more reliable over 200, 225, etc. Especially when charming mobs that are fairly close in level.

At level 45 and forgetting to buff Radiant Visage in Grobb, I was having a miserable time. With the CHA buff, and back up to 231, things went much smoother. This was against the level 39 guards, btw.

Subjective, yes, but it is pretty easy to tell the difference (so it seems). If someone has actual numbers, I am sure they will post.

That said, I wouldn't bother to compare to TLPs since those aren't even the same game anymore.

[Dulu]

Originally Posted by Canelek [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure if anyone has gathered any numerical evidence on CHA, but it is pretty easy to have a subjective test by removing CHA gear and trying to charm the same things you've been XPing on. Charm "seems" much more reliable over 200, 225, etc. Especially when charming mobs that are fairly close in level.

At level 45 and forgetting to buff Radiant Visage in Grobb, I was having a miserable time. With the CHA buff, and back up to 231, things went much smoother. This was against the level 39 guards, btw.

Subjective, yes, but it is pretty easy to tell the difference (so it seems). If someone has actual numbers, I am sure they will post.

That said, I wouldn't bother to compare to TLPs since those aren't even the same game anymore.

I stopped focusing on CHA, and went for +HP/AC and +Mana, and found myself charming/mezzing the same, but slightly tankier when mobs would break.


Without hard evidence to back it up, I don't think CHA even works in PVE. (It works for vendoring items)