Shaman Stats & Melee Dmg Cap

[Theldios]

Originally Posted by Wenai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly like the perfect post in describing the shaman's position upon the release of Kunark.

Although Sup Heal sucks.. Give me Chloroblast [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Although the stats for Chloroblast on Alla are wrong. It should heal ~500 for like 175. But the big thing with chloroblast was I believe it had an extremely quick casting time. I used Chloroblast+Torpor for a long time.

One thing that wasn't mentioned in this post was JBB. A single item changes the shaman class so much it is almost ridiculous. On my shaman on live pretty much every solo went the exact same way.

1. Pull with Turgur's
2. Root with Paralyzing Earth.
3. Send Pet.
4. Click Epic.
5. Cast Poxx of Bertoxx.
6. JBB until mob down to 40% health.
7. Canni up my mana.
8. Torpor myself.
9. Go pull.

That set up pretty much allows you to solo anything. I soloed the West Wastes jank dragons like that (except Torporing my pet a whole lot).

JBB completely changes the way you solo.

Agree with both statements shaman post Kunark become gods

[VictoryARC]

These posts are very welcome and encouraging considering I flew through low levels on p99 with crap gear. Taking down yellows and some reds with noob gear was very fulfilling. I love the versatility of the class and being sought after in groups helps too.

[Reiker]

Originally Posted by Wenai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly like the perfect post in describing the shaman's position upon the release of Kunark.

Although Sup Heal sucks.. Give me Chloroblast [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Although the stats for Chloroblast on Alla are wrong. It should heal ~500 for like 175. But the big thing with chloroblast was I believe it had an extremely quick casting time. I used Chloroblast+Torpor for a long time.

One thing that wasn't mentioned in this post was JBB. A single item changes the shaman class so much it is almost ridiculous. On my shaman on live pretty much every solo went the exact same way.

1. Pull with Turgur's
2. Root with Paralyzing Earth.
3. Send Pet.
4. Click Epic.
5. Cast Poxx of Bertoxx.
6. JBB until mob down to 40% health.
7. Canni up my mana.
8. Torpor myself.
9. Go pull.

That set up pretty much allows you to solo anything. I soloed the West Wastes jank dragons like that (except Torporing my pet a whole lot).

JBB completely changes the way you solo.

There was a "discussion" about the usefulness of JBB awhile ago on this forums. My stance is fairly anti-JBB. I'm also curious why you need to root the mob, you'll never lose aggro over your pet (which is good, shaman pet is a horrible tank compared to the shaman).

Anyways, regarding JBB. This item is very good when you can first use it (45) but after awhile it actually becomes detrimental to use. I see you mentioned Pox, which would assume you were JBBing in PoP, which I don't recommend.

As I mentioned before, the strength of a shaman is no downtime. Any time you're not casting a spell you're wasting time. Every action a shaman takes can be represented in "time efficiency" instead of "mana efficiency." The JBB does 263 damage after an 8 second cast time, or 32.875 dps. The benefit of the JBB is that it's mana free. If there's any class that doesn't care about the mana cost of something, it's shaman. If you weren't clicking JBB above, you could afford to cast spells such as Blood of Saryrn. Blood of Saryrn takes 3 seconds to cast and costs 535 mana. To regain that mana it'll take about 6 cannis, or 30 seconds. Blood of Saryrn cost you 33 total seconds. That may seem like a lot until you consider that focuses, Flowing Thought, AAs, and mana regen buffs will make this even more efficient (but won't affect JBB). Blood of Saryrn does 2324 total damage, or 70.42 dps when considering the time lost to canni back mana. Again note that the time decreases with focuses, etc, increasing the potential dps by a lot.

Basically, the JBB would be an amazing and potentially overpowering item in the hands of any other class besides a shaman. Many use one early and get attached to it, not understanding that it's actually hindering them.

[Skope]

It's a fantastic item, and i agree, but bear in mind that your numbers are luclin/AA based and there was a huge jump from velious => luclin.

JBB filled the void of killing things that can be rooted, or killing something that's not as challenging -- doesn't summon, basically -- and doing so by using very little mana. It does hinder a shaman in the sense that it draws you away from carpal tunnel clicking and therefore is considered a waste of time or cast. With a JBB i can root/rot JBB things down with very little effort, but with a barbarian spiritist's hammer I can also melee proc the same nuke many times a minute while still being able to cast, heal, cannibalize and all the things that make a shaman so lovely. The hammer isn't necessary, as 8 seconds between clicking JBB isn't hard to accomplish with a slowed mob beating on you since you should be timing the bash/kicks anyway.

Is it a great item? absolutely! is it necessary to do some of the wacky things that shaman were capable of doing? no, it isn't. You were always way better off saving for a fungi tunic/staff than you were for a JBB.

[Wenai]

Originally Posted by Reiker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There was a "discussion" about the usefulness of JBB awhile ago on this forums. My stance is fairly anti-JBB. I'm also curious why you need to root the mob, you'll never lose aggro over your pet (which is good, shaman pet is a horrible tank compared to the shaman).

Anyways, regarding JBB. This item is very good when you can first use it (45) but after awhile it actually becomes detrimental to use. I see you mentioned Pox, which would assume you were JBBing in PoP, which I don't recommend.

As I mentioned before, the strength of a shaman is no downtime. Any time you're not casting a spell you're wasting time. Every action a shaman takes can be represented in "time efficiency" instead of "mana efficiency." The JBB does 263 damage after an 8 second cast time, or 32.875 dps. The benefit of the JBB is that it's mana free. If there's any class that doesn't care about the mana cost of something, it's shaman. If you weren't clicking JBB above, you could afford to cast spells such as Blood of Saryrn. Blood of Saryrn takes 3 seconds to cast and costs 535 mana. To regain that mana it'll take about 6 cannis, or 30 seconds. Blood of Saryrn cost you 33 total seconds. That may seem like a lot until you consider that focuses, Flowing Thought, AAs, and mana regen buffs will make this even more efficient (but won't affect JBB). Blood of Saryrn does 2324 total damage, or 70.42 dps when considering the time lost to canni back mana. Again note that the time decreases with focuses, etc, increasing the potential dps by a lot.

Basically, the JBB would be an amazing and potentially overpowering item in the hands of any other class besides a shaman. Many use one early and get attached to it, not understanding that it's actually hindering them.

I understand what you are saying and I have discussed it with a lot of people in the past. I used the Poxx/JBB/Torpor method while level 60. Poxx is a kunark spell [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]. This is kind of interesting because it brings up the point I have made in the fast, what type of efficiency do you prefer:

1. Time Efficiency
2. Mana Efficiency

I am typically a very defensive player and value crowd control and versatility far more than speed. I feel that if you play defensively than you have the mana to handle situations that go badly.

I understand that your DPS is better by using your regular DoTs rather than JBB but the thing is that JBB is completely mana free, which frees up your mana for buffing (with no downtime) as well as just protection. The thing you seem to be forgetting is that if you are killing higher level creatures, seeing a resist on a high mana-cost DoT sucks. All of a sudden your efficiency is out the window. If you have to Malo every single pull, once again your efficiency is out the window. I feel like JBB is the safe way to solo and that is just the way I have always played.

I understand the merit in using DoTs instead of JBB but to me it goes against my priorities in EQ of not only safety but also versatility. If I am spending all my mana on DoTs, I have less mana for CC and heals. I understand if you kill quicker than you don't have to worry about heals and you worry less about CC.. but that just goes against my playstyle. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's a fantastic item, and i agree, but bear in mind that your numbers are luclin/AA based and there was a huge jump from velious => luclin.

JBB filled the void of killing things that can be rooted, or killing something that's not as challenging -- doesn't summon, basically -- and doing so by using very little mana. It does hinder a shaman in the sense that it draws you away from carpal tunnel clicking and therefore is considered a waste of time or cast. With a JBB i can root/rot JBB things down with very little effort, but with a barbarian spiritist's hammer I can also melee proc the same nuke many times a minute while still being able to cast, heal, cannibalize and all the things that make a shaman so lovely. The hammer isn't necessary, as 8 seconds between clicking JBB isn't hard to accomplish with a slowed mob beating on you since you should be timing the bash/kicks anyway.

Is it a great item? absolutely! is it necessary to do some of the wacky things that shaman were capable of doing? no, it isn't. You were always way better off saving for a fungi tunic/staff than you were for a JBB.

Disagree on Fungi Tunic. Worst waste of cash I ever spent. Seriously. I spent 60k on my Fungi Tunic. Realized that regen is overrated in Kunark era for shamans due to Torpor. As soon as you hit 40% health, drop torpor on yourself and you are good to go. That extra 15 hp/tic really means shit all. It means you cast Torpor less often and thus save mana and gain effiency.. but whatever. Not worth the sacrifice of stats for a shaman imo in the Kunark era. Fungi tunic is amazing for Monks obviously. It is high AC for a monk and the 15hp/tic regen is huge for a class that can't heal themselves.

I paid 85k for my Torpor scroll on live.. and it was damn worth it. It is singly the most important thing shaman gets between Vanilla and Kunark.

Oh. I actually got my JBB for relatively cheap on live.. between 15 and 20k.

[Reiker]

Ugh yeah, I confused the Kunark/PoP disease due to the PoP spells having "god names" and the graphic changing around that time to Bertoxxulous throwing up maggots or whatever.

Fungi is best in Kunark especially because there's not very many chest options for shaman. Jaundiced Bone is garbage besides the clicky, and fungi is easier to obtain. The first truly great shaman BP isn't until Velious (Vindi BP), and there's even some situations where you may want to use fungi over it (Luclin is when you want to really start throwing away every single stat for any amount of HP you can find; you need to get to a point where you can safely Canni5 in combat). A Vindi BP can easily last you until GoD (Ikkinz BP).

If you're playing for one hour and haven't been full health (you shouldn't have been), the fungi regened 9000 HP, or 4.5 Torpors (900 mana)

[Wenai]

900 Mana in an hour is literally nothing when you are talking about using top DoT's (aka. Bane of Nife 425 Mana)

So in one hour you gained 2 extra casts of Bane of Nife [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It helps (I am not going to deny that) I just find it laughable to say Fungi Tunic helps a shaman more than JBB.

[Skope]

I think the fact that all 3 of us are agreeing on certain points and disagreeing on others shows just how versatile the shammy class really is. And to think, we haven't even gotten into the discussion of HP/mana/wis/AC gear...

I do think the fungi is a fantastic investment imo, particularly in group/duo situations and even solo (though the latter tends to heavily vary depending on what you're soloing). You get +20 a tick with frenzy, +15 for fungi, +15 for fungi staff, +15 for regrowth and then you factor in race/natural regen. I'm one of those dudes on the old shammy boards that thinks the regen is primary stat for a shaman due to cannibalize mechanics and torpor. Can you cast torpor after cannibalizing and still gain a LOT more mana than you lost for casting the spell initially? Absolutely! But having that extra +15 a tick helps significantly over the long run, by allowing you to cannibalize that much more.

Though I do agree, it will be insanely expensive. As I stated earlier, Shaman isn't a class for the lazy or for the poor if you are looking to min/max. Torpor > fungi staff > fungi > jbb for me. This is not counting malo, which is perhaps an even better spell than torpor and imo the biggest spell in kunark between all of the casting classes.

EDIT: as good as a shaman is solo, they're far better duo or with a full group. This is where you factor in the +regen > +wis or even +hp on a breastplate. You won't be tanking, thus if you have enough HP for a safe torpor (factor in some potential damage as well) then that's enough HP. I think this is where the +regen on a fungi really starts to show itself worthy over something like a dragon or drusella BP.

[hueylewis187]

I'm sure shammys kick ass in kunark and I have an alt one.

I just can't picture a shaman doing the outdoor dragons that melee for 300+ and aoe for 1k ? how

How does the shaman break the tough rooms in seb apart when 5 mobs come hitting for 170's each? root them all ? with torpor on yourself?

I can't wait to try these things out. I am probably going to need some kunark raid gear to do so hehe.



so best duo is 2 shammys? or 1 sham 1 cleric ? or 1 sham 1 bard ?

[Wenai]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the fact that all 3 of us are agreeing on certain points and disagreeing on others shows just how versatile the shammy class really is. And to think, we haven't even gotten into the discussion of HP/mana/wis/AC gear...

I do think the fungi is a fantastic investment imo, particularly in group/duo situations and even solo (though the latter tends to heavily vary depending on what you're soloing). You get +20 a tick with frenzy, +15 for fungi, +15 for fungi staff, +15 for regrowth and then you factor in race/natural regen. I'm one of those dudes on the old shammy boards that thinks the regen is primary stat for a shaman due to cannibalize mechanics and torpor. Can you cast torpor after cannibalizing and still gain a LOT more mana than you lost for casting the spell initially? Absolutely! But having that extra +15 a tick helps significantly over the long run, by allowing you to cannibalize that much more.

Though I do agree, it will be insanely expensive. As I stated earlier, Shaman isn't a class for the lazy or for the poor if you are looking to min/max. Torpor > fungi staff > fungi > jbb for me. This is not counting malo, which is perhaps an even better spell than torpor and imo the biggest spell in kunark between all of the casting classes.

I am a big beliver in balance. I really think the best setup is going to balanced AC/HP/Mana. I KNOW a lot of people will disagree with me, but I think the best way to play your character is to be prepared [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said I do generally prioritize HP over anything. My general rule is hit the softcap for your casting class, and then forget about the stat. After you get near the softcap, start going all out for bulk HP gear.

I do understand your points on regen and it does show we do just play the class differently [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Stacking Fungi+Staff+Fungal+Rage is going to add up a ton of HP regen and will be extremely effective. But to be honest I just feel that Torpor is enough and Fungi becomes unnecessary. I had that set up at one point and just felt that it was extremely unnecessary. The one thing I am looking forward to in Kunark is Canni IV (was that avail in Kunark? I think so.) Canni I annoys me so much that I use Manastone more often even though the ratio is terrible compared to Canni.

I just feel the stats that were brought up were bloated. 9000 hp per hour sounds incredible but it really isn't that impressive honestly in the long run. You save 900 Mana by not casting Torpor as often but when we are talking about DoTs costing 425 mana per cast.. it jut really isn't impressive enough to make me use it over something that gives me much higher AC/HP/Mana whatever. Perhaps using like a Rune Etched BP(+9sta +13wis +25mana) instead of a Fungi Tunic allows me to reach my soft cap easier and gives me the ability to drop another piece of WIS gear for HP gear etc. I understand the benefits of Fungi tunic and I used it on my shaman for a long time. I just got to a point on live and wondered to myself.. Why am I wearing this. I changed from Fungi to something else (Rune Etched I believe?) and my play style never changed. I never noticed anything differently.

With or without Fungi... A shaman is not going to have mana problems [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It is all really preference.

As far as Malo goes it depends on how you play your shaman. If you are a raiding shaman... Hell yeah, Malo is gonna be huge and make you feel like a more important part to the raid. If you solo a ton, Torpor is better in my opinion, no question.

Originally Posted by hueylewis187 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sure shammys kick ass in kunark and I have an alt one.

I just can't picture a shaman doing the outdoor dragons that melee for 300+ and aoe for 1k ? how

How does the shaman break the tough rooms in seb apart when 5 mobs come hitting for 170's each? root them all ? with torpor on yourself?

I can't wait to try these things out. I am probably going to need some kunark raid gear to do so hehe.



so best duo is 2 shammys? or 1 sham 1 cleric ? or 1 sham 1 bard ?

When I solo'd WW dragons it was pretty difficult.. It was a long time ago and I really don't remember the fights very well.. I know I had full raid buffs (Cleric and Shaman). The ones I soloed were the some of the easiest ones, Atpaev and Pantrilla. It is pretty much completely Malo, Slow and Torpor lol.

As far as handling multiple mobs.. Tirgir's was a very underrated spell. I played on live mostly as a support and ghetto CC shaman in a trio of Mage+Cleric+Shaman. The mage used to do all the pulling and he would warn me like, "5 INC" or something. Tirgir's is AoE Slow. It allowed me to grab aggro quickly (although it was generally pretty low aggro iirc) since he never did any damage to them. I would put torpor on myself and root them one at a time with paralyzing earth. Once they are all parked, cast Turgur's on them one at a time as you killed them.

Shaman + Anything is a good duo honestly. Shaman's biggest downside in my opinion is their somewhat poor DPS (pretty much the only thing that keeps them out of the "elite soloer" tag that Necros, Mages and Enchanters seem to get). Anything that can help out with DPS is great.

Shaman + Shadowknight, Shaman + Paladin, Shaman + Ranger are all great combos in my opinion.