Suicide Kings Raid Proposal

[astarothel]

Suicide Kings Raid Proposal (Last updated: June 21, 2010)


Outline
This Suicide Kings raiding proposal is an adaptation of the Suicide Kings loot distribution system.

Suicide Kings is essentially a dynamic list formed to decide what raid group has the right to engage a mob. It allows for target prioritization, and fairness while maintaining a competitive atmosphere and rewarding those groups which put forth the effort to know when a raid target is available.

I know many of you will be thinking "Wow, that's way too long, there's too many rules". Be rest assured it is only to ensure the integrity of the system as a whole and avoid potential loopholes -- the actual mechanics of Suicide Kings are straightforward.

While it is my hope that raid groups can all get along in a competitive, and courteous manner, and that none of the reprimands for committing acts unseemly acts are needed, but experience has taught me it is best to lay out punishments for said behaviour ahead of time.

Raid Targets
The following is a list of current raid targets that will be followed for Suicide Kings.
PoSky targets will be incorporated once full details are known and the zone is released.

Voxx
Nagafen
Cazic
Inno
Maestro
Draco

Random trash clears in Planes while there is no raid target to claim in a zone are free for all, although

Types of Raid Groups and the Suicide List

There are three distinct types of raid groups that will be recognized for entry into the Suicide Kings "Suicide list".

The first is a guild raid group. A guild group/s raid must consist of a 2/3 majority of its members belonging to their affiliated guild.

The second is a coalition raid group. A coalition raid group must consist of two to four smaller guilds that have chosen to engage on an extended agreement to raid targets cooperatively. A coalition raid group must consist of a 2/3 majority of its members belonging to their affiliated coalition. A coalition raid group's component guilds may not simultaneoously belong to both a guild raid group and a coalition raid group.

The third is a premeditated pickup group hereafter referred to as a PUG raid group. A pug raid group cannot consist of more than ten members from the same guild, or one third of the raid force, whichever is less.

The Suicide List
All registered raid groups are entered into a numbered list. Position on the list, as shown later on will be a significant factor in engaging a raid target.

Position on this list will be randomly rolled for by raid groups at the inception of Suicide Kings.
Any group wishing to enter into the Suicide Kings system must declare their intent to enter into the system.
After a one week waiting period, they will be allowed to roll a random number based upon the number of guilds on the list,
and placed at that spot on the list.

An example list at the inception of Suicide Kings after rolling would be as follows:
1. DA
2. Remedy
3. IB
4. Divinity

If an upcoming raid group, for example Wrathful Inquisition, felt they were ready to raid, they would declare on the forums their intent to raid and be entered onto the list. After a one week wait, they would roll a number between 1 and 5 and be placed on the list accordingly. If they were to randoms a three the updated Suicide List would look as follows:

1. DA
2. Remedy
3. WI
4. IB
5. Divinity

Raid Group Inactivity

If, over the course of two full weeks, your raid group has moved neither up nor down on the Suicide List your raid group will be deemed inactive, and removed from the list. If you wish to be entered into the Suicide List again after those two weeks your group will be required to abide by the one week waiting period before you are eligible to raid again. Bouncing between active and inactive could be considered a form of List Manipulation, so please abstain from doing so excessively.

List Manipulation

The one week wait before being added to the Suicide List is an unfortunate necessity to prevent attempts at manipulating the list.
Without it there would be nothing to stop raid groups from forming and dissolving until they received a good roll in number.

Any attempts to pervert or distort the Suicide List will be severely punished.
If a guild or raid group should pseudo-splinter in an attempt to claim more mobs this would be another example of manipulating the list in an attempt to get more targets. Such an action will result in the splinter group being removed completely from the Suicide List and require another waiting period should they wish to continue to raid, after which time they will be placed at the dead bottom of Suicide List. The main group will be considered to have suicided to the bottom of the list for attempting to manipulate the list, may not move up any places on the Suicide List for a period of one week, and in this time may only engage raid targets deemed to be free for all.

Should it be necessary to verify or vindicate claims of list manipulation and collusion via chatlogs, a GM may be called in and their decisions deemed final.

In the event of a merger of one or more raid groups they will inherit the worst position on the Suicide list one of their component groups held. They will not however be required to declare their intent to raid again.

Rollcall and the Initial Claiming Procedure

When a raid target is up, it is the responsiblity of each individual raid group that wishes to raid it to know its availability, be it through
tracking, or other forms of intelligence gathering.

The first individual to establish a raid target is up in a zone must screenshot a /shout across the zone annoucing the target is up, along with a /who of the zone. This shout opens a 10 minute window where any raid group present (or otherwise informed of the target being up) must declare they are present and which raid group they represent in a /tell to the individual that opened the 10 minute window, or by using a similar zonewide /shout in the raid target's zone. In the case of disputes over the 10 minute window, these timestamped rollcall screenshots will be used as the primary source of evidence.

There is no minimum number of people required to claim or opt in, simply knowledge that the target is up, and participation in the rollcall.

Of the raid groups aware the target is available, the highest on the Suicide List has five minutes to decide whether they will be the first to engage the target, or if they will pass. If that group opts to engage, they have "Suicided", and their place on the list is lowered to one spot beneath the lowest listed group present. If the highest eligible in group present opts to pass, the next highest receives the option to engage with another five minutes to decide, and so on. Should it progress to the lowest numbered raid group present on the list, they are free to engage it at no cost -- they have no further to suicide.

In the rare likelihood the lowest raid group on the totem pole opts to not engage the target, the raid target is declared free for all.

Engagement

Engagement of a raid target occurs after a group has opted to suicide (or in the off chance they are not required to suicide). The raid group that suicided has a two hour window to attempt to kill the raid target. Due to the nature of some encounters which require the clearing of associated trash, this two hour window begins when the last trash mob is killed.

Failure to Engage

There is no undoing a suicide. If you opt for a suicide, and are unable to follow up and engage the mob it is the fault of your raid group. If the raid group has not engaged the raid target and pulled by the halfway point of their two hour window, they will likewise have suicided for nothing and the option to suicide in and claim the mob resumes where it normally would on the Suicide List. This one hour mark includes any necessary mobilization time, so it is important to be ready to go when your raid group opts to suicide.

Selfless Suicide

There is no such thing as selfless Suicide. One raid group cannot opt to take a Suicide, and then give their raid target over to a different raid group. If the raid group wishes to pass on any further attempts following their Suicide, the option to Suicide resumes where it left off on the list.

Rules of Engagement

As previously mentioned, the raid group that suicided has two hours to down their target barring any failure to engage.

No other raid groups, or their members present in the zone, shall attempt sabotage via training or other douchebaggery within this two hour window. To do so will cause your raid group to suicide straight to the dead bottom of the list, in addition to any punishment GMs decide inflict upon guilty individuals.

The Two Hour Window

The two hour window immediately begins after a suicide, and any required and associated trash is killed. It is highly recommended that the start of a window is recorded with a timestamped screenshot in the event of a dispute over when a window opens and closes.

At the end of that two hour window the next group down on the list present at the rolecall will have the option to suicide to one spot under the group which had previously engaged the target. The group currently attempting to defeat the raid target will be required to break off further attempts, and in the case of the window ending mid-attempt, stop any further attempts upon the target after that attempt is completed. If the next group eligible to suicide choose to pass, the option to do so travels further down the list.

Should no other groups wish to suicide on the target at that time, the group who took the suicide for the target is eligible to continue with no need to suicide again.
If said raid group should give up on raiding their target, and no other raid group wishes to suicide in, the raid target is deemed free for all.

Raids in Progress

Through the course of a raid if a new raid group becomes aware a raid target is up one of two things happens.

1) If the raid group currently engaging the mob did not have to suicide on (because no other raid group was aware of the target, the raid target was declared a FFA target, or the raid group can claim the target indefinitely because they are the lowest on the Suicide List), a fresh two hour window is granted to the raid group currently attempting the target, after which the second raid group can opt to suicide in.
2) If a window has been called and is already in place, the new raid group is eligible to suicide in when the window closes if they are in the appropriate position on the list, or they will move up in the event another raid group suicides in before them.

Free For All Targets

There are two free for all targets in Suicide Kings

1. Spawned planes trash when no raid targets are up.
2. A raid target that has passed through the initial claim procedure, and those eligible raid groups present have passed.

Both types of FFA targets will still abide the no douchebaggery policy and its punishments. Negative interference such as training will still be punished as if it were a raid target within a two hour window.

FFA raid targets can be opted into for suicide by a group later on, subject to the rules outlined in above.

In the event a raid group is clearing trash and one of the raid encounters within the zone spawns the situation is resolved as normal via Suicide Kings. Just because you're there clearing trash doesn't give you any dramatic edge. Of course if no one else is there tracking and knows about it you're free to engage, no suicide required.

Repeat Offenders

Offenses for raid groups are accrued and cumulative.

A raid group's first offense for training and interference will be one week at the bottom of the list. A raid group's second offense for training and interference will be two weeks, and so on.

A raid group's first offense for Suicide List manipulation is they may not move up any places on the Suicide List for a period of one week, and in this time may only engage raid targets deemed to be free for all. A raid group's second offense for Suicide List manipulation is two weeks, and so on.

Suicide List Management and Maintenance

Management of the Suicide List will be done in a restricted thread in the forums to prevent trolls and outside interference from shitting up the post. Four or five members per raid group will be granted posting privileges. For guild and coalition raid groups it is highly recommended eligible posters be officers.

The first post in the thread will have the initial Suicide List.
A reply to the thread will be made each time a raid target is claimed.

The thread reply should use the following template:

Raid Target:
Suicide by:
Raid groups present:
Date:
Suicide Time:

Updated Suicide List:
1.
2.
3.
[...]

[astarothel]

Reserved for addenda and discussion points.

[Akame]

I may not be raiding yet but if I can vote I'd like to vote no, I really am against any system that allows the rights to a mob to be determined before it is spawned.

[Taxi]

I need my lawyer to take a look at it first.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I may not be raiding yet but if I can vote I'd like to vote no, I really am against any system that allows the rights to a mob to be determined before it is spawned.

Actually rights are determined by whoever is present when the mob spawns. You are already aware of your spot in line, though.

Astarothel: Am I mistaken in thinking that it was originally one engage = end of suicide i.e. if you screw up that's it?

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually rights are determined by whoever is present when the mob spawns. You are already aware of your spot in line, though.

Yes but you are still saying if guild A is there and guild B is there and guild A is higher on this "list" than guild B, they have first rights.

It may be a slightly twisted description but it still stands, a predetermined right to the mob due to outside influence. It goes against the idea of competition and a pickup group is under no compulsion to ever follow the rules of this list.

[Beau]

100% against any form of rotation. It does not make provisions for open raiders and not only makes it very difficult but discourages growing guilds from joining the competitive raid scene. I am fairly certain there are enough people on this server that would be in opposition to rotations for one reason or another that it's honestly not even worth bringing up. It's a nice gesture but I personally came back to this server for a classic feel. I don't know about your servers but where I came from you had to compete and earn your keep. It wasn't just handed to you. That's just boring.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually rights are determined by whoever is present when the mob spawns. You are already aware of your spot in line, though.

Astarothel: Am I mistaken in thinking that it was originally one engage = end of suicide i.e. if you screw up that's it?

Right now as written the raid group's suicide is good for their full two hour window (provided they haven't pooched it by failing to engage).

It allows for a little bit of wiggle room if a GM has to reset an encounter, a quarter of your raid DCs (like always somehow happened to in classic >> LOLVOXX), raid groups that are just learning an encounter, etc. Learning isn't as much issue in the content we have right now, but when Sky comes out it certainly will be.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Beau [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

not only makes it very difficult but discourages growing guilds from joining the competitive raid scene.

A growing guild can either coalition up with another group of people to form a raid group or sign up themselves under Suicide Kings.

A growing guild that enters into the Suicide List will receive the benefit any raid group at the bottom of the list does with an increased availability of easier, lower priority targets.

A growing guild would not be forced to camp 15+ in a zone like is currently happening, and requires only one tracker to participate in the rollcall.

A growing guild will face as many challenges under the FFA policy you would prefer as they would a straight rotation. They would just be different types of challenges.

Originally Posted by Beau [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am fairly certain there are enough people on this server that would be in opposition to rotations for one reason or another that it's honestly not even worth bringing up.

I am also fairly certain that there are enough people on this server in opposition to FFA. This is what is deemed a "compromise" between FFA and a straight rotation. It is also not so different from the unstated rotation currently in place between guilds that camp to /roll for it or switch it up.

I am also fairly certain there are enough people on the server that would argue what the correct time in on the atomic clock is, and how many hours there are in a standard day.

Originally Posted by Beau [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's a nice gesture but I personally came back to this server for a classic feel.

Many people did. That's why they're here.

Originally Posted by Beau [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know about your servers but where I came from you had to compete and earn your keep. It wasn't just handed to you.

You are correct, you don't know what servers I came from, but rest assured they were ones that never had a rotation.

Your raid group is responsible for the chance you have a target, that is what makes it competitive. Your raid group is in no way obliged to tell another group when a raid target is available. Nothing in Suicide Kings is straight up handed to you.

[Skope]

So the drawing of position is done a week beforehand? and when/how?

I don't agree with some of the timers. I think 10minutes is a tad short, and I think the 2 hours after a full clear is way too long. I'm also not quite sure how it addresses an engagement prior to a full clear (something like draco and leaving the northern part of fear up). I also think that it may be a bit too open for new guilds to join the suicide kings system (or at least the draw). A guild who can kill naggy/vox in a single try shouldn't have to be waiting for 3-4 other guilds who are clearly not in contention to have their timers tick away so the big guild gets their shot.

I'm assuming it's essentially a rotation system, but instead of being "gifted" a raid mob you're responsible for being there during or shortly after it's spawn to be get a fair shot. I do think it's a great idea, but I believe the hardest part will be having these 4 guilds agree on anything atm.