Experience Rates With 0-5 Other Group Members

[Axoc]

Here on the forums, on the subreddit, on the wiki, and in-game I've been told about a "full group bonus" that means if you have a group of 6 members then you have more experience gain than if you have a group of 4-5 members. I've also been told that all experience negative modifiers (for example Human Ranger -40% , Iksar Necro -32%) apply to that specific character only, EXCEPT for hybrid -40% deficit.

So for example if the group makeup is:
Human Ranger -40%
Human Monk -20%
Halfling Warrior +15.5%
Dwarf Cleric +0%
Iksar Necromancer -32%
Iksar Shadowknight -68%
(not ideal I understand but these combinations exist only to highlight the experience modifiers)

Then everyone in the group would receive the Ranger hybrid deficit, resulting in:
Human Ranger -40%
Human Monk -40%
Halfling Warrior -40%
Dwarf Cleric -40%
Iksar Necromancer -40%
Iksar Shadowknight -68%
(the higher number is taken, correct? Or are they added together or multiplied?)

This means that as long as one of the four hybrid classes:
Bard
Paladin
Ranger
Shadowknight

Isn't in the group, then the experience rates for all members will be their own personal experience modifier, correct? When they group with a hybrid, how is the new modifier calculated?

Also I have seen from personal experience that the ideal number of players (from a minmax perspective, not a fun social perspective) seems to be 3:
Solo has the most experience per kill but the most downtime
Duo has less experience per kill but the lowest downtime while actually still having downtime
Trio has less experience per kill but no downtime
4 people has less experience per kill but such a high amount of downtime you never go OOM unless constantly nuking
5 people has less experience per kill but such a high amount of downtime you never go OOM with even higher mana than 4 people
6 people has less experience per kill but such a high amount of downtime you never go OOM with even higher mana than 5 people

This means that 3 is the ideal for minmax, not 6 as the rumor goes, correct? But 6 is better exp than 4-5, right? If this is entirely wrong, could somebody answer and explain both of these questions for me please?

[Donruss]

This sounds totally wrong to me. But I am going to let a smarter person answer.

[Axoc]

Originally Posted by Donruss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This sounds totally wrong to me. But I am going to let a smarter person answer.

Which part? The EXP modifiers sounds really wrong to me, but the 0-5 grouping seems to make sense...obviously the EXP can't be multiplicative in this case because 1.4*1.68=2.352 so an Iksar SK would lose 35.2% EXP of a mob's EXP value every time that mob was killed if a hybrid was in the group. It also can't be added, as they would then lose 108% of that EXP value.

So in that case would the deficit be 40% or the usual 68%?

[drktmplr12]

Take a step back from group bonus, race, and class for one minute...

It's total exp earned thus far (calculated by race, class, and level) for each player, and then it's that exp / sum(exp) for everyone in the group.

Lets do some math to illustrate:

5 human warriors with 2000 total xp each.
1 troll shadow ranger 10000 total xp

The troll would get 50% of the group's xp per kill.
The warriors would each get 10% of the group's xp per kill.

Lets change it to:

5 troll shadow rangers with 2000 total xp each
1 human warrior with 10000 total xp

The trolls would each get 10% of the group's xp per kill.
The warrior would get 50% of the group's xp per kill.

Race and class have nothing to do with the calculation. Instead race and class determines what level someone will be based on an amount of earned exp. Now we include the group bonus. If the kill normally yields 100xp.. the group bonus gets applied to that then the xp is split.

[Amalec]

Then everyone in the group would receive the Ranger hybrid deficit

This is your problem. That is not how this works. Here's the basics:

1) All experience penalties are a modifier for the amount of experience you need to level. That's it. They don't effect how much experience you or anyone else gets from a kill directly. Experience modifiers never apply to anyone else directly.

2) When a monster is killed it awards experience based on it's level and location. The amount awarded isn't effected by the number of people in a group, their races, their classes or their levels. The only exception is when someone is too high and no experience is given.

3) Experience is divided proportionately to the total amount of experience each character in the group has, regardless of their or anyone else's race, class or level.

In practice, what this means is a character with a high experience penalty take experience as if they were higher (or, rarely, lower) level than they actually are in a group.

Examples

From the wiki:

Cumulative Total XP to complete a level = L^3 * C * R * H
Where:
C = Class Multiplier
R = Race Multiplier
H = Hell Multiplier (based on level)

So, a level 30 High Elf Enchanter has total experience = (30^3) * 110 * 10 = 29700000.

Working from there, we can calculate what level other characters with the same experience total would be (fractional levels matter!):
A Level 30.00 High Elf Enchanter
A Level 32.51 Halfling Rogue
A Level 26.01 Troll ShadowKnight
A Level 30.97 Human Cleric
A Level 30.18 Troll Warrior

What that means is that, if we had a group consisting of the characters above they'd each get exactly 20% of the experience from every kill. And if we were choosing any of the characters above for our group they'd each take exactly the same proportion of experience.

If, instead, we had the above characters in our group but they were all exactly level 30, the group's total experience would be 154561500.

A Level 30.00 High Elf Enchanter would have 29700000 total experience and take 19.22% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Halfling Rogue would have 23341500 total experience and take 15.10% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Troll ShadowKnight would have 45360000 total experience and take 29.35% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Human Cleric would have 27000000 total experience and take 17.47% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Troll Warrior would have 29160000 total experience and take 18.87% of the XP

In short:
People who yell on the forums about not grouping with hybrids don't understand experience mechanics.

People who yell on the forums that the hybrid penalty doesn't matter or that it's the same as grouping with a character a level or two higher don't understand math.

People who won't group with someone when they've got a slot open because they're worried about efficiency need to go outside.

[Ezalor]

A group invited no hybrids because of the darn "dirty xp hogs" that they are

5 warriors with 2000 total xp each
1 cleric with 10000 total xp because he was 4 levels higher

the 5 warriors each got 10% of the group's xp per kill
the 1 cleric got 50% of the group's xp per kill

the cleric laughed his way to the bank on the retardation of the rest of the group who didn't know it's about total xp on your character. that includes level, not just your class/race.

[Samoht]

your first issue is that there are TWO exp modifiers for class race combinations, not one. there's one for class. there's one for race. class modifiers apply to group exp. race modifiers only apply to personal exp.

[Axoc]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

class modifiers apply to group exp.

The wiki says, under the heading Well, how do we slice the pie? How big will each slice be?, "The classes of these characters makes no difference at all. The only thing that determined how big each slice of the pie would be was the net total xp that each of them had earned since character creation."

This means that more experience goes to higher levels, right? So if you want maximum experience for a mob, you should theoretically either be the highest level in that group OR you should be grouping only with white cons, right?

Originally Posted by drktmplr12 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Race and class have nothing to do with the calculation. Instead race and class determines what level someone will be based on an amount of earned exp. Now we include the group bonus. If the kill normally yields 100xp.. the group bonus gets applied to that then the xp is split.

Okay so the only thing that applies to group deficit is hybrid penalty or class penalty? I'm not understanding here. If a kill normally yields 100xp, would the only penalty check across the entire group be to check for -40% and then it would calculate the individual modifier, ranging anywhere from -68% of that newly edited number to +15.5% of that newly edited number?

So it could be anywhere from:
+0% = 100xp
-40% = 60xp
-68% = 32xp
-40%, then 68% of that number = 21.76xp?

Or is the higher/lower number of the -40% vs -68% number taken, either resulting in 60xp/32xp?

Originally Posted by Amalec [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) When a monster is killed it awards experience based on it's level and location. The amount awarded isn't effected by the number of people in a group, their races, their classes or their levels. The only exception is when someone is too high and no experience is given.

What about on the wiki under the heading, How Experience Works, in the Game Mechanics page where it says "However, through the magic of the group bonus, for each person in the group beyond the first, the pie gets a little bit bigger (2% bigger in fact) before we pull out the knife to divide the slices."? Is this incorrect?

Originally Posted by Amalec [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Working from there, we can calculate what level other characters with the same experience total would be (fractional levels matter!):
A Level 30.00 High Elf Enchanter
A Level 32.51 Halfling Rogue
A Level 26.01 Troll ShadowKnight
A Level 30.97 Human Cleric
A Level 30.18 Troll Warrior

So it's based on actual invisible number of experience points, not the visible level? If it works this way, why is the stereotype of "hybrids shit up group exp rates" a thing?

Editing to make sure that it's clear I'm not interested in the minmax idea of "I can't have a full group because it cuts out on my experience", before that argument even gets started. I'm simply interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake.

[Amalec]

Originally Posted by Axoc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This means that more experience goes to higher levels, right? So if you want maximum experience for a mob, you should theoretically either be the highest level in that group OR you should be grouping only with white cons, right?

The first part is true. The person with the highest experience total will get the biggest share of experience. But your conclusion is false. You're trying to maximize the total experience you gain, not the proportion of the experience you gain. Otherwise, you might as well solo - you always get 100% of the experience that way.

Originally Posted by Axoc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about on the wiki under the heading, How Experience Works, in the Game Mechanics page where it says "However, through the magic of the group bonus, for each person in the group beyond the first, the pie gets a little bit bigger (2% bigger in fact) before we pull out the knife to divide the slices."? Is this incorrect?

This is correct. That was an oversight on my part. Experience awarded by an npc is dependent on their level, their location and the group modifier.

Originally Posted by Axoc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Okay so the only thing that applies to group deficit is hybrid penalty or class penalty? I'm not understanding here. If a kill normally yields 100xp, would the only penalty check across the entire group be to check for -40% and then it would calculate the individual modifier, ranging anywhere from -68% of that newly edited number to +15.5% of that newly edited number?

So it could be anywhere from:
+0% = 100xp
-40% = 60xp
-68% = 32xp
-40%, then 68% of that number = 21.76xp?

There is no group deficit. If the kill is worth 100xp, it is worth 100xp whether it is killed by a full group of halfling rogues or a full group of troll shadowknights. Or a pair of druids, though they'll lose 8% of the group bonus. Who gets the experience is all that changes, and that is based on each individuals total experience.

Originally Posted by Axoc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So it's based on actual invisible number of experience points, not the visible level? If it works this way, why is the stereotype of "hybrids shit up group exp rates" a thing?

Yes, it is based on the invisible number of experience points.

The stereotype of hybrids shitting up group exp rates is because their experience penalty makes their exp totals considerably higher than anyone else's, particularly when it's applied with a steep racial penalty.

Referring back to my original post for example, a level 26 Troll SK or a level 32 Halfling Rogue will take roughly the same amount of the 'experience' pie from a group. And adding that 30 Troll SK to your trio will do roughly the same thing to your experience rate as adding two 30 Halfling Rogues would.

[loramin]

You're pretty off. Take a look at http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mec...perience_Works for how it actually works.