What would be more DPS for my rogue? Upgrading my haste item or offhand?

[cooler2442]

I currently have an RBG for my haste item(with epic of course) and a winter's fury for my offhand. Would I see more DPS from upgrading the winters fury to an Exquisite Velium Spear or upgrading my haste item for more backstabs to an RBB?

[HouseTargaryen]

Both either way will give you that extra Dps boost.
I would go RBB first then wep upgrade after that.

[Cecily]

4% haste upgrade... meh. Get the shiny 12 20 weapon imo if you can stand that spear look for probably forever. I can't.

[Lowako]

I'd go with the offhand upgrade. Your backstab refresh timer will drop by about .24s~ (7.87s vs 7.63) when you're unhasted. The benefit of upgrading your haste item is mitigated by haste, because even with celerity (shaman 50% haste) the value of that 4% haste is essentially halved (5.52s vs 5.4s).

Ideally you'd get a better haste item in a different slot so you can use a turtle belt (or dain belt) for the aura of battle.

[cooler2442]

Originally Posted by Lowako [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd go with the offhand upgrade. Your backstab refresh timer will drop by about .24s~ (7.87s vs 7.63) when you're unhasted. The benefit of upgrading your haste item is mitigated by haste, because even with celerity (shaman 50% haste) the value of that 4% haste is essentially halved (5.52s vs 5.4s).

Ideally you'd get a better haste item in a different slot so you can use a turtle belt (or dain belt) for the aura of battle.

What about if say I skipped the RBB and kept saving for a CoF? Would I see a better DPS increase in getting the CoF vs my RBG instead of upgrading to the spear over a winters fury?

[Lowako]

Originally Posted by cooler2442 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about if say I skipped the RBB and kept saving for a CoF? Would I see a better DPS increase in getting the CoF vs my RBG instead of upgrading to the spear over a winters fury?

Like sdp00888 said, upgrading your haste is minimal gain, I'd go with the offhand. The benefits of a haste upgrade get mitigated by having a buff haste (which you'll have in nearly all scenarios), whereas the benefits of a weapon upgrade are magnified by having haste buffs, as well as most likely providing more DPS in any scenario.

[HouseTargaryen]

any direction u go will work. eventually u will upgrade both. I would upgrade haste because selling your rbg for RBB will be a cheaper upgrade.
upgrading offhand will only increase your offhand dmg.
upgrading haste will increase your backstab, ragebringer and offhand dmg.

[Lowako]

Originally Posted by HouseTargaryen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

any direction u go will work. eventually u will upgrade both. I would upgrade haste because selling your rbg for RBB will be a cheaper upgrade.
upgrading offhand will only increase your offhand dmg.
upgrading haste will increase your backstab, ragebringer and offhand dmg.

upgrading haste won't effect ragebringer or offhand damage (unless he is upgrading to 41% haste).

vog is generally the preferred haste even if you don't hit the cap without it, the value of ATK on this server is obscene.

here is some big nerd math numbers for backstab dps. keep in mind these numbers assume 100% accuracy, a 50% chance to double backstab (this seems to be close to the actual chance based on some parsing), a patchwerk style fight, and hitting backstab exactly on cooldown. Some of the average backstab damage numbers that I plug in are on the higher end of the spectrum as well, so keep that in mind. anywhere from 170-250 damage could be reasonable for average backstab based on mob AC/luck/mainhand damage.

In practice, you aren't going to be hitting backstab perfectly on cooldown, not only because of mobs moving etc, trying to avoid that bug where it eats the cooldown but you don't actually backstab etc, the ability coming off cooldown in between keypresses (as a side note, the fastest i was able to hit the backstab key is roughly 12 times per second, but only because 1 on my hotbar is also bound to E so i can alternate slamming the keys). Fight length also has tremendous impact on the value of a haste upgrade in regards to backstab timing.

number of backstab attempts per minute, 27% haste vs 36% haste
1min - 7.62 vs 8.16
2min - 15.25 vs 16.32
5min - 38.11 vs 40.8
1 hour - 457.4 vs 489.8

some average backstab damage from various parses (note: all of mine are using a 13 damage weapon, i believe luddo, mdk, and samila all use ragebringer for theirs)
draco - tev 247
cekenar - tev 173 | mdk - 223 | luddo - 250 | samila - 196
king group (myconids and various frogs) - tev 218 vs mdk 238

total backstab damage over 1 hour rbg vs cof - dps in parentheses ***I MADE AN ERROR HERE*** I forgot to include double backstab when doing these calcs. I put the corrected dps difference in brackets. most of the other numbers can be ignored.
220 avg dmg - 100540 (27.92) vs 107580 (29.88) - 1.96 [2.94] dps difference
250 avg dmg - 114250 (31.74) vs 122250 (33.96) - 2.22 [3.33] dps difference
300 avg dmg - 137100 (38.08) vs 146700 (40.75) - 2.72 [4.08] dps difference



number of backstab attempts per minute, 85% haste (rbg with vog) vs 94% haste (cof with vog)
1 - 11.09 vs 11.65
2 - 22.18 vs 23.30
5 - 55.45 vs 58.25
1 hour - 665.43 vs 699.03

total backstab damage over 1 hour - with vog, rbg vs cof (Includes the 50% double backstab chance)
220 avg dmg - 219450 (60.96) vs 230670 (64.08) - 3.12 dps difference
250 avg dmg - 249375 (69.27) vs 262125 (72.81) - 3.54 dps difference
300 avg dmg - 299250 (83.13) vs 314550 (87.38) - 4.25 dps difference

moving onward to offhand calculations, thankfully they are quite simple. these numbers don't factor in dual wield/double attack chance unfortunately.

average hit damage = (2 * Weapon_Base) + Bonus_Modifier + STR Modifier
offhand has a bonus modifier of 0, strength modifier is thought to be a multiplicative so (2*weapon_base*STRbonus) + bonus. as it stands, im pretty clueless as to what the STR bonus is so its being left out.

winters fury average hit = 26
winters fury average dps base = 11.304
winters fury average dps worn haste only = 15.825
winters fury average dps worn haste + vog = 22.375

exquisite velium spear average hit = 24
exquisite velium spear average dps base = 12 (.696 dps increase)
exquisite velium spear average dps worn haste only = 16.795 (.97 dps increase)
exquisite velium spear average dps worn haste + vog = 23.762 (1.387 dps increase)

TLDR; I was wrong, haste item wins in theory(only tested with CoF as the haste though), whereas an offhand weapon is likely to be slightly better or even in practice. both upgrades are relatively minimal, your best bet to increase DPS is to be luckier.

[sdp00888]

If you want to calculate how much better a CoF is going to be then take (10/1.36) which means backstab cooldown will be 7.35 seconds compared to an RBB would be 7.63 seconds. Currently with your RBG your bs cool down timer is 7.87 seconds. As you can see even a CoF isn't going to make that big of a difference. You'd be better going off for the exq. Velium spear imo

[KorafRN]

I'm pretty sure cof is better than upgrading offhand. 3.5% offhand upgrade vs 9% bs cooldown. I'd even guess than RBB is slightly better as well. Every rogues damage splits will be different, but mine is roughly 40% bs / 40% mh/ 20% oh

Upgrading his haste won't affect auto attack since he uses ragebringer