The pampered experience group (deferential players and forward GMs)

[ELance]

It has been my observation on Project '99 that, unlike classic, one group will often dominate uncontested a very large number of spawns relative to the number of people in the zone seeking something to do. It is my assertion that this is brought about by forward GMs on Project '99, who act more eagerly than they did in classic, and deferential players, who unknowing of the rules voluntarily restrict themselves from what in classic would have been theirs, out of fear of punishment or simply the involvement of GMs, which often happens immediately when someone petitions and is not generally a positive experience for anyone. I have seen a few situations like this, and here is how it usually goes.

One or two players in a group are short-tempered, irrational or what have you. They see someone not in the group take something they feel is theirs, and they bristle up. Sometimes they will say something in OOC in an effeminate way, such as "Please don't take our spawns. Thanks." When their vain aggression is ignored, by people who like to play without a headache, mock courtesy quickly and predictably turns to petitions and reports. Here is where I think things are handled improperly and have a negative effect upon Project '99.

But first, some background. In classic, we know that GMs generally only responded to repeated kill stealing and deliberate training, not minor disputes over camps. Usenet is rife with anecdotal evidence that they seldom responded at all, and the likelihood of their response was proportionate to the number of petitions they received with regard to it. I was once told by someone on here that times have changed, signifying I suppose that players today are wilder and more unruly than they were, but I think not. As I assert most here are deferential, it is my conviction, and truly beyond dispute, that this server is placid compared to classic. But let me provide two examples, not to show the state of camping disputes in classic (because, as I say, these were generally left to players), but to show the vast difference in incidents in classic and now.

"Example: I was after a Chittin Shell Shield to increase my AC and just
for the cool looks (it matches my outfit), so i went down to Guk and started
camping for one. At level 25. the mob who drops it was blue to me so I was
getting exp and i had a chance at a cool item to loot. All of a sudden, a
mid 30s KSer (scumbag by the name of Cendar Fireheart) walks up and starts
attacking the mob i was after. I asked what he was doing and he says
"Killing, and you?".
After i explained to him that i was there first and he should wait his
turn and he said "There is no name on it.. whoever gets it, gets it" I
petitioned and was basically told too bad. " 9/13/99

"Hah, Rivan and Trevor on The Rathe CONSTANTLY trained DVinn, King Crush,
and their band of orcs through the newbies, and steal kills constantly as
well. On purpose.
Everybody in the damn zone (and Crushbone is always FULL) /petition'd and
/feedback'd them, and last I checked they're both still in the game. As
far as I can tell, GM's only ban for exploits, nothing else. AFAIK they
didn't even get a warning." 4/5/99


It is obvious that GMs on Project '99 are not like the ones in classic. Whether that is good or bad is for another thread (and maybe not these message boards), but it does bear on this in one way. GMs here do act on minor camping disputes, things that were resolved before by players. That is to say, if one person out of twelve petitions, I have seen no reason to believe a GM will not intervene and very quickly. I think very few good persons wish to involve GMs in disputes. It is irrational. In classic Everquest, presuming a GM did respond to a camping dispute, the guidebook told him simply to tell the players to work it out themselves. And then he left. In other words, the irrational players were reminded to be reasonable. It is nice Project '99 says in the rules players should work things out themselves, but it is important to understand that one or two people do not represent everyone there. Working things out means sharing or moving on, generally. I was in a group the other day, and one person ran through it pulling for another, and someone in one said, "Don't do that again or I'll report you". The words of a child? No--they are the words of someone with power. The GM came immediately. It is my assertion in this thread that this is bad.

I will cut this post short with my proposed solution. Supposition: camping dispute, a few players become irrational, they petition because mobs they feel are theirs, in a crowded zone, are being taken. Solution: GM receives the complaint and monitors the situation lightly. Maybe he troubles himself to remind them they should work things out themselves (better handled in a tell to the petitioner than the apperance of a GM in the middle of a group, which alarms people). GM only intervenes if the situation escalates to intentional trains or repeated killstealing.

Project '99 has been around a while, and so there must have been some objection to this solution, which it seems to me is most reasonable. I simply close by reminding people this is a massively multiplayer game. Players such as myself put up with rampant spoiler site usage, toilet humour and juvenile lingo, others need to put up with those who are not deferential. Otherwise it will not be a massively multiplayer game in the way classic Everquest was. Here are some opinions of players from '99. Do you think these people play on Project '99? I would wager not.

"You guys, get off it. it is Sony's responibility to make sure bugs are being
handled correctly, and that servers are running smooth. the online GM's are
there to ensure FAIR gameplay (as in to cheating ie finding safe zones etc.
and to get peoples stuck bodies out from a wall...)
They are there NOT to run around listening to whiners. about he sent me a
train. (boo hoo)

If they are pissing you off, then be smart, do something back to them. bring
trains to him, or if you are too wimpy, then go elsewhere and hunt.

The only time ithink a GM should intervene is if the rude player is
following you around.... thats all..." 4/7/99

"Clearly, you dont understand the concept of the GMs on Everquest. First of
all.. I paid money to play this online rpg, which is a rareity. I play MUDs
and they are free, and I might actually fear (a teensy bit) the IMMs doing
somehting bad to me if I was being "unethical". But, since I paid cashmoney to
play EQ, I don't fear that at all.. they have to have a really good reason in
order to talk to me (or even think about booting me from the game.)

GMs are mostly there to cover up EQs bugs. If somehting bad happens, they will
fix it. If someone finds a bug, they report it to the GM and it gets fixed. If
someone is exploiting a bug, they will take care of that (alot faster than
anything else actually..hehe.)

HOWEVER, they don't have time nor the brainpower to listen to all you ---
--- ----- about me utilizing the games features at its fullest. I am not 14,
I am in fact alot more mature than you think. If you don't like they way I
play, get out of my zone. If you feel like getting revenge somehow.. declare
against my guild when I make one and try to kill me. "Telling on me" is not
the way to get my to be nice to you." 4/1/99

[Rooj]

The examples lost their traction when they started claiming GMs are there to fix bugs, lol.

[bum3]

It all depends on the guide you got in classic. It also varied by server. Tunare guides were very active and swift. Entire guilds were dismantled and banned due to members being warned to stop ksing and training. My personal experience was when I was soloing frenzy room pre-kunark as a necro.. i could clear the room and pull the outside room. A group setup outside room and i took a mob. Was warned by a guide that my camp was only inside the frenzy room and If I took another one of their mobs I would lose my camp too. But another personal experience is my name was Bumster Heinie... 3 different guides over 2 years responded to complaint petitions on my name. All 3 said it was fine, might be a little pushy but was ok and laughed about it... then a 4th guide summoned me to GM room a couple months later and changed it.

[ELance]

Originally Posted by bum3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My personal experience was when I was soloing frenzy room pre-kunark as a necro.. i could clear the room and pull the outside room. A group setup outside room and i took a mob. Was warned by a guide that my camp was only inside the frenzy room and If I took another one of their mobs I would lose my camp too.

And you exchanged no words with the others? You only took one mob and this happened? Was it a guide or a GM? I am not sure the guides were paid, but the GMs were paid professionals. But yes as a general rule the more rules there are, the worse it becomes. I am not sure of the difference between guides and GMs, but your post would be good evidence that even given a clear set of guidelines such enforcers will still sometimes behave and interpret rules erratically. Often it is just a case of illiteracy or a failure to read the guidelines in the first place. The fewer rules there are, the better. That is why I advocate GM intervention only when repeated killstealing or intentional trains are happening. I am not even opposed to these within reason, and neither were a number on alt.games.everquest in 1999; but in this thread I have advocated a more moderate position. Player conflict was a natural part of early MMORPGs, even ones without PvP. There are plenty of games where you can play apart from others.

In the end, whether it be a train, killstealing or camp dispute, the worst that can happen is you lose experience points. That is a part of the game. When a GM shows up it is not a game. The mechanics have failed to suffice. But I don't think they have. I do not share a dislike of conflict with others so much that I would call a time out and invite police to mediate it. And what is more, when this is done, it only increases conflict. The people that are petioning are prone to conflict, at least behind their computers. They have expectations out of keeping with their strength. The more power they think they have, the more they will display--squealing and whining.

In general the rule in life is that people don't read rules. GMs don't read rules, player don't read rules. So rules are not the best choice. Thankfully Everquest has systems. Sony went a step further, and would yet in Everquest II--locked and leashed encounters and instances. But Project '99 has no such ambitions.

It will be interesting to study the responses of those that disagree with me in this thread. What is the general nature of their writing? Do they write thorough, detailed posts, or one line replies that show lack of comprehension?

And let's not forget the old saying, which I think, paraphrased, is, "People who deal in poison take half their own dose." It is unpleasant for all to go against others, especially if they are fewer persons against more persons. Add to this the natural function of reputation in the game, which might blossom more if it could breathe, and even more attempts to govern players with GMs can seem heavy handed. This is a world, and we are all people, and I do not think it needs great intervention from others. We can always press the power button or go elsewhere if we don't like it. There was a story in the news a while back about a man that called police to his home with regard to an intruder. The police came, saw him in the living room, thought he was the intruder and after some misunderstanding shot him dead. Those who serve justice, do not always deliver it.

[bum3]

Originally Posted by ELance [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you exchanged no words with the others? You only took one mob and this happened? Was it a guide or a GM? I am not sure the guides were paid, but the GMs were paid professionals.

Nah i'm sure i pulled some before I realized they were there. I would just pop around corner and pull with disease cloud. They were in the hallway T behind that room. No words were spoken. Guides were volunteers. Unpaid. At least I was when I did it for a short 3 month stint. It could have been avoided if they let me know they were there. After guide warned me, I invited them to my group with the understanding I got first fbss that dropped. As a guide, when i oversaw camp disputes If they were solo/duo or partial I asked them to group together and share. If 1 group had been there a long time they kept it. But usually their kill radius got smaller. IE your group gets the room camp.. other group can have next room or hallway spawns. Then I sat invis and watched for a bit while answering question petitions. But I was one of the nicer guides, IMHO.

[Baler]

Pras P99 & Pras Staff
They volunteer to do hard work.

And remember it's 2019 not 1999.
There are a new set of problems that did not exist during live clasic. Cut people some slack.

Everyone should read the Play Nice Policy & Server Rules
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=325349

Behave toward others as one would have others behave toward oneself.

[flacidpenguin]

So many threads recently where people seem to have the complaint of "I want to be a toxic player, but the GMs tell me not to be a toxic player, and this is somehow unfair!"

[oldhead]

Originally Posted by flacidpenguin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So many threads recently where people seem to have the complaint of "I want to be a toxic player, but the GMs tell me not to be a toxic player, and this is somehow unfair!"

Didnt know how to sum up this post with few words and didnt want to waste too much time on it. Thanks!


The mental gymnastics in the post are... scary but extraordinary at the same time. Akin to watching a murdered kill someone.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by oldhead [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Didnt know how to sum up this post with few words and didnt want to waste too much time on it. Thanks!


The mental gymnastics in the post are... scary but extraordinary at the same time. Akin to watching a murdered kill someone.

The internet was a place out of societal norms and people let loose (despite marketing). Now, due to cellphones and ever increasing accessibility it has become the new normal. When its normal it is not the exception.

Yes, some people were like that. The net had no filter and you sometimes you got the raw nature of people. No law, no fear and no one really gave a damn about techno geek things. Here we are arguing about whats correct in the post social media boom, where grandma is on Facebook and your three year old niece surfs youtube.

When the majority was 18-40 year old males.. tell you to plug that bleeding pussy with a kotex.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[TheRusty]

Originally Posted by flacidpenguin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So many threads recently where people seem to have the complaint of "I want to be a toxic player, but the GMs tell me not to be a toxic player, and this is somehow unfair!"

They're the abandoned manchildren of Youtube "philosophy" channels.