Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[Morgander]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Morgander for GM!

That is all.

I'd do an amazing job.

You've got my vote.

[Morgander]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So let me get this right:
1st guy worked for 50 years and made 100M
2nd guy spend 50 years laying on a couch and drinking soda

Now 2nd guy want to get the share the 1st guy wealth because he has a god given right to it....

I guess this how communist revolutions happen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. I am curious though - if 1st guy would have also spend the 50 years laying on the couch, where would the wealth come from?

Hard work is very, very seldom directly correlated to wealth or power.

For every individual you can show me who's net worth exceeds a million dollars, I can show you 20 who have, in the entirety of their lives, worked twice as long and twice as hard as that individual, but who have virtually no wealth in comparison.

Do you honestly believe that the wealth distribution in this and many of the other top nations of the world are the way they are because hard work = success?

That's incredibly naive.

[Fawqueue]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hard work is very, very seldom directly correlated to wealth or power.

For every individual you can show me who's net worth exceeds a million dollars, I can show you 20 who have, in the entirety of their lives, worked twice as long and twice as hard as that individual, but who have virtually no wealth in comparison.

Do you honestly believe that the wealth distribution in this and many of the other top nations of the world are the way they are because hard work = success?

That's incredibly naive.

Tell me, what was it like to occupy Wall street?

[finalgrunt]

Variance has removed poopsocking, a bad aspect of classic EQ raiding. Period.

In your opinion, and because that benefits you.

Since we now have FTE rules & FTE shouts, poopsocking doesn't lead to the same issues as in the past. Poopsocking would become rampant, until all partie agree to play another way.

About time they remove variance.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hard work is very, very seldom directly correlated to wealth or power.

For every individual you can show me who's net worth exceeds a million dollars, I can show you 20 who have, in the entirety of their lives, worked twice as long and twice as hard as that individual, but who have virtually no wealth in comparison.

Do you honestly believe that the wealth distribution in this and many of the other top nations of the world are the way they are because hard work = success?

That's incredibly naive.

No, I don't believe that.
A lot of wealthy people either inherited their wealth, or build up on wealth inherited, or just got luckier than others.

However, it is also incredibly naive to think that "lets share everything" ideology would bright you anywhere but to end of civilization.

Lets take Soviet Russia. In 1917 they took all the wealth there was in the country from all the people (those who had by inheritance and those who earned it themselves) and shared among everyone - actually everything went to the state, and live quality of average inhabitant was improved by about... 5%. And they killed everyone who resisted - which included about 50% of all the best and brightest in the country.
And then they start to pay equal wages to all factory/farm workers regardless of how well they worked. So people who could work better had no incentive to do so, since they would still be paid exactly the same. And rest of work force realized that they don't really need to work even at minimum requirement, since they will be paid full salary anyway.
Then Stalin comes along, and forces everyone to work to 125% under penalty of death - which produced some of the "wonders of early socialism" which also cost the country 8 million lives. Then Stalin dies, the rules are relaxed and workers go back to: it doesn't matter how well you work you still getting paid the same, cause we are sharing and everyone is equal.
And 30 years later, USSR, the richest, the largest and the most powerful country in the world, collapses under its own weight. And then the "patriots" start to point fingers looking for a scape goat, since in "the best country in the world" everyone was equal and 100% happy, so how could we come to such a ruin?

History/economy lesson aside, lets go back to EQ raiding.

And truth here, that your parallel between raiding and RL is invalid.
You cannot compare competitive game playing vs RL economical needs of population.

You can compare it to sports however. In sports people compete to demonstrate their skill and effort, for glory and potentially rewards.

You say you are martial artists and musician. So lets see.

You train for 5 years like mad, you enter the competition, you win, you get your medal and a 10k cash prize. then the 100 guys who didn't won came to the judge and say : "hey we competed too - we want the medal too, and a share of 10k. So what that we didn't win, he have the right!" And judges say - "yeah sure, you have the right" - and everyone gets the same medal and equal share of the 10k cash prize.
Then next day, 10,000 people show up and say - "we watch the tournament on TV, so in way we participated too. We want our share too!" So we split those 10k again to satisfy everyone, and and give everyone the same 1st place medal with their name on it.

Now, you are an artists - you painted a beautiful picture, and won a first prize, and your picture is being displayed at national museum. However the label on the picture doesn't say it was painted by you - its says "made by the people of country X". Now if you try to claim that you actually created that masterpiece, the people will say : "What are you? A fucking capitalist? This picture was made by the people!"

In short - in the world where everything is shared caused it must - there will be no incentive to ever create anything new, or even work for that matter. Why work when you go to the guy who have slightly more than you and demand your share?

The only question remains, what all of you "share-lovers" will do when there is nothing left to take? Since no one works - no one produces anything. Soon you will start beating each other on the head with sticks and stones for scraps of food, and turn to cannibalism. And some time latter degenerate into apes you came from.

You like fantasy? Read Terry Goodkind Sword of Truth series - his 5th book has a perfect demonstration of how medieval communism would look like, where people believe that rest of the world owns them a share of everything.

Back to raiding once more.
The top guilds (TMO in specific) started on this server same as everyone - a naked level 1. But they had the skill and a determination to put more time and effort into getting to the top. What stopped you from playing 15 hours a day and waking up at 5am to be at the raid spawn in 5min? If you really want those "pixels", as some folks like to say, you must drop everything else you have, and concentrate on getting those pixels. No? Then you can come to these forums everyday and cry and beg and whine, and have TMO laugh in your face.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Morgander [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree on a few points. Sam Harris states that the questions of morality, as per what is in fact right or wrong, is not simply the case of opinion.

Values, he states, "are a certain kind of fact. They are facts about the well being of conscious creatures."

We do not think that rocks can suffer, thus we do not value the well being of rocks. This idea extends to everything we value, as per what we understand in biological complexity as per how much suffering can become impact.

The conditions of well being holds facts, Sam states. We can move through a continuum of the worst possible suffering of conscious life, up and through to lesser suffering. To move to a more idyllic series of situations.

We know, he says, that there are right and wrong answers to this space.

If we're discussing human well being (thus the human brain and how we realize and experience suffering or idyllic feeling), then to hold the power to withhold idyllic situation from other conscious beings, while keeping them all to yourself, you are, intrinsically and by definition, being immoral. I would find this hard to dissuade myself from, given the sheer amount of logical discourse Sam presents.

Is this entire concept up for differences of opinion?

Sure, but I'm still waiting for any single person to get deep enough into this ethical construct to dissuade me yet that there are not concrete rules for human morality.

There are not concrete rules with human morality, this isnt found in philosophy its found in genetics and human history. Change your sources.

[Godefroi]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are not concrete rules with human morality, this isnt found in philosophy its found in genetics and human history. Change your sources.

It's not moral to date innocent high school freshmen on meetic.

Asshole.

[finalgrunt]

You train for 5 years like mad, you enter the competition, you win, you get your medal and a 10k cash prize. then the 100 guys who didn't won came to the judge and say : "hey we competed too - we want the medal too, and a share of 10k. So what that we didn't win, he have the right!" And judges say - "yeah sure, you have the right" - and everyone gets the same medal and equal share of the 10k cash prize.
Then next day, 10,000 people show up and say - "we watch the tournament on TV, so in way we participated too. We want our share too!" So we split those 10k again to satisfy everyone, and and give everyone the same 1st place medal with their name on it.

If you want a true analogy ....

If p99 raiding was like boxing, you would have a single tournament, where a 10 years old girl would have to face Mike Tyson. That's why there are tiered tournaments, so that the best don't just demolish new people, and they can enjoy themselves at their level, and still grow stronger with time. In p99, after Mike Tyson breaks all teeth and ribs of the little girl, he will smile at the camera and yell "Next!".

[finalgrunt]

Originally Posted by Krissdu64 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol why does that benefit me (TMO) over everyone else? I don't get it...

Do you have an incurable disease that forbids you to track in Divinity?

By the way, when I'm talking, this has got nothing to do with Divinity (even more since I'm 3/4 retired until raid scene becomes more classic), it's more as a player who has raided in the past with other guilds and on Live. The disease would be a job and a family to care about. However, while I could raid without variance (could time a guild effort to be there at the right time), with it in place, I just can't help.

It does benefit TMO since the curent rules with variance creates an environment where big rosters are needed, and being on top means a greater appeal for new recruits. Tracking 24/7 has got some heavy burning out power, and smaller guilds don't want to change their roots to meet such requirements. On Live it wasn't needed, at least during classic era. I remember people would at best losely track every now and then. And guilds would wait in turn for attempts if the spawn time was known. Agreements arose later with expansions as competition became fiercer.

Also why should I go through unclassic involvment to meet your own unclassic standards? In the past, I've asked for a free week for all the other guilds to compete against each other one week every 9 or 10. That's leaving 9 times out of 10 which would be more than enough to acknowledge your guild's superiority don't you think?

But hey, if you want to remain greedy, that's your choice, and you're free to do so. As I said, I won't lose sleep over it (let me know when your guild bank account reaches 100 millions pp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you want a true analogy ....

If p99 raiding was like boxing, you would have a single tournament, where a 10 years old girl would have to face Mike Tyson. That's why there are tiered tournaments, so that the best don't just demolish new people, and they can enjoy themselves at their level, and still grow stronger with time. In p99, after Mike Tyson breaks all teeth and ribs of the little girl, he will smile at the camera and yell "Next!".

Maybe one day that little girl will have a nice training montage video get better and take out Mike Tyson? Oh... that would be too much work for someone who wants handouts tho [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]