Necro or enchanter...Go!

[Zalaerian]

Roll on red as a chanter. Most devasting class in PvP if played well.

[Vandamwtc]

I have an Enchanter, and a Necromancer. I love both in their own way, but I too can't decide. Probably why neither is 60 yet. I'm leaning more toward Necro, simply bc everyone seems to have an enchanter the past couple of months. My Necromancer is also a dark elf, bc you see nothing but Iksar, I've also had him since 2010. Guess I'm a hipster!

[Arterian]

Wtb enchanter with feign death.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Resists become less frequent at 60 because of the level gap. Keep in mind that while Kunark does have a level 60 cap, the vast majority of the high-level content was designed for 50s play. Most folk in raiding guilds were not 60 when Velious hit.

Take a look at Sebilis, the majority of the frogloks up top are in the upper-mid 40s with nameds being 50-55. Hell, even the Fungi King is only level 56. You are killing blue mobs that are 12 levels lower than you. Contrast this with leveling where you're mostly killing stuff 4-5 levels below you.

I think one of the biggest problems with Project 1999 is that we have been stuck on Kunark for so long, and so we end up with exactly this: a bunch of max level/geared players stomping hard on group content that was designed for people 5 levels lower without their epic/dragon haste etc.

Spore king group on live: the players are 55-57, the warrior has two lamentations and a FBSS, the monk is using an IFS or maybe even trance sticks, the rogue has a Rapier of Orinn, the enchanter doesn't want to charm because he lags out hard once an hour (and has 500+ ms ping), and with ideal construction the full group puts out 150 dps. Snare is critical, and the group has to sit on the spawn point due to low dps, which is very dangerous with all the roamers.

Spore king group on P1999: Everyone is L60. All of the melee have an epic and dragon haste. The enchanter has a great connection and charms an ilis knight for 100 dps. The shaman is 60 with Torpor. If it's a full group, they do 250+ dps and sit at the zone out room clearing all the way to juggernauts. If things go south, someone logs on their pocket epic cleric.

This is why I wish we could have a new Blue server. At least for a while, people wouldn't be roflstomping the content.

Originally Posted by Potus

Necros are very fun from 1-50. After 50 please realize that their is a considerable and noticeable drop in power. Verant hated necromancers and the two expansions reflect a neglect of Necromancers. You see it in the pets, which aren't very good post 50, and you see it in a lot of anti-necromancer gameplay changes, things like mobs summoning, mobs being unfearable, mobs being unsnareable, etc.

I think both are a lot of fun and you won't be disappointed by either.

100% agree. Necros are a great class (and still fun) but they suffer hugely in Kunark.

A L45 frenzied ghoul will be relatively unhappy with Ignite Blood and a 49th level skeleton. A L55 froglok commander will laugh off Pyrocuor and eat your 59th level pet alive (even with backoff tricks). And summoning mobs will absolutely wreck your day, which is really why Druids and Necros are fantastic soloers in classic but pretty mediocre in Kunark.

Charm is weaker because of fewer undead: there are charm targets in 75% of classic zones (Hate, Fear, Guk (all the good items are dead side anyway) vs Sol B) but less than half of Kunark zones (HS, KC, Seb Crypt vs Chardok, Sky, Veeshan's Peak, Deep Sebilis) and IIRC in Velious that ratio only gets worse.

TBH even with those issues if mobs could not summon players (one of the most retarded mechanics ever in my opinion) and necros could land taps on boss mobs I would consider them equal with enchanters.

[Uteunayr]

Clever necromancers can handle many summoning mobs. This was discussed earlier in the thread.

While most bosses will easily resist taps, they do not easily resist Ignite/Chill Bones, as so many creatures are heavily skewed to MR rather than CR/FR.

In Velious, our time to shine (after the lull that is Kunark, where the best we get is Demi-Lich, Splurt that we don't get to use much, and Iksar) happens because root and darkness no longer count as the same type of debuff. This allows for more freedom in using Darkness. In addition, we get Death Peace, a much faster casting, lower failing chance FD that has a very brief cooldown, allowing FDing at near the same speed as a Monk. This makes necromancers even better at handling summoning mobs and controlling their aggro.

Additionally, the changes to raid mobs brings Necromancers into a much greater light than we ever were in the past, even in classic. With higher HP bosses, longer encounters, necromancer DoTs start ticking to fruition. Our heals become faster, we get the Elder Beads to increase our independence, and our twitch becomes even more necessary.

[Potus]

I'm just now rediscovering this thread, sorry for the late response.

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sorry, but you're comparing us to melee, the consistent DPS group. No, we wont DPS like a Monk or a Rogue, and it is silly to think that we should be balanced relative to them in terms of DPS. We weren't equal to them before, we weren't in Kunark, and we certainly aren't now on live.

Necromancer isn't a DPS class. It is a support class. That is the fundamental difference in our thinking, I believe.

Necromancers were always a DPS class. At launch they matched/exceeded monks and rogues in DPS. Necromancers had multiple DD spells, the most DoTs of any class in the game, was a primary pet class. They screamed damage, both immediately and sustained over long periods of time.

If Necromancers were a support class then Verant screwed up majorly. And no amount of Screaming Terror, Summon Corpse, and Shadow Bound could make up for real support classes like Cleric, Enchanter, or Bard.

In Kunark, Necromancers ceased to be a DPS class because Verant coded all the raid targets to resist a vast majority of Necromancer spells. This was intended to make Necromancers worse than other classes post 50.

Further, I'll add that I disagree that we are as worse off as you seem to suggest. All enemies were scaled up, and I have not seen anything empirically sound to say that the scaling up of Necromancer damage (counting in your pet damage) is proportionately worse than that that it was at relative to other classes in the pre-Kunark era. If you have such an analysis, please do share. I know I take longer to kill things post-50 than pre-50, but I also know other classes do too. I'd like to see some proof, because it really isn't (from the two necromancers I have leveled through the 50s) as devastating as you seem to be making out.

I'm kind of puzzled you'd argue this point. You really think Necromancers received equal positive attention in Kunark and scaled proportionately to other classes? Shaman? Enchanters? Monks?

I don't think I even have to provide data. It's pretty blatant when you look at itemization for Kunark. Do Necromancers get a kunark spell at level 30 that outdamages their level 49 dots? No, they don't. But melees have noob dungeon drops that make them vendor Ykeshas and delete planar drops.

The fact that little-to-no Necromancer spells landed on raid targets in Kunark proves my point.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Necromancers were always a DPS class. At launch they matched/exceeded monks and rogues in DPS. Necromancers had multiple DD spells, the most DoTs of any class in the game, was a primary pet class. They screamed damage, both immediately and sustained over long periods of time.

If Necromancers were a support class then Verant screwed up majorly. And no amount of Screaming Terror, Summon Corpse, and Shadow Bound could make up for real support classes like Cleric, Enchanter, or Bard.

In Kunark, Necromancers ceased to be a DPS class because Verant coded all the raid targets to resist a vast majority of Necromancer spells. This was intended to make Necromancers worse than other classes post 50.

Necromancers were a support until around Luclin/PoP era where they condensed DoTs to short duration, removed twitch, removed heals, removed pretty much all our utility (with ST being one to quickly follow), and made us rotate between 12+ DoTs.

We never "screamed damage". Rogues, Monks, Rangers, Wizards, these people were always on top of a Necromancer. Necromancers were in the position of being one of the inefficient DPS classes for group and raid fights until Velious when bosses started getting some real meat on them, and DoTs would tick to fruition. Our DDs are terribly inefficient relative to other specialized classes, and they would never match up to MDPS.

Necromancers were not a DPS class in Classic unless you were an idiot that adds to the culture of Necromancers not being seen good in groups. A smart Necromancer knows that is not their role, and they shine in other ways, namely as a support class.

This was not a mistake, it was intentional, and it was brilliant. It's among the first games to really dig into this side of Necromancy, namely being a conduit for the transfer of life, something that many games completely looked aside from. A Necromancer is not a Wizard, they do not cause the elements to cringe, they are not a Cleric, they do not create life through healing, as that is a divine power. No, a Necromancer is an arcane caster that can transfer life between things. You suck the life out of your enemies, and you deliver it to your allies. You burn it into mana, and transfer that to allies. You sacrifice the weak, and you can expend that soul to bring the strong back to life. The point is that the Necromancer does not create life, the Necromancer just moves life between the living.

It's the side of Necromancer that is missing from many games due to the time it takes to manage such a thing (such as Diablo 2, it wouldn't really fit in an ARPG), and it is the reason why Necromancers in classic were the best recreation of the class for a video game ever done by a game company.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm kind of puzzled you'd argue this point. You really think Necromancers received equal positive attention in Kunark and scaled proportionately to other classes? Shaman? Enchanters? Monks?

I don't think I even have to provide data. It's pretty blatant when you look at itemization for Kunark. Do Necromancers get a kunark spell at level 30 that outdamages their level 49 dots? No, they don't. But melees have noob dungeon drops that make them vendor Ykeshas and delete planar drops.

The fact that little-to-no Necromancer spells landed on raid targets in Kunark proves my point.

Again, you're looking at this through the lens of "HOW MUCH DPS DO I DO? HURR DURR.", which is about the last thing a Necromancer should or needs to be concerned with, in classic, or in Kunark. It didn't even get onto the table for intelligent Necromancers until Velious when we had raid mobs with more meat on them to allow DoTs to tick, but also resulting in putting a greater need on our patching and twitching capabilities.

It is not as bad as you make it out, as you're damn near obfuscating reality through your lens of DPS Only. Damage needed was scaled up to kill anything, and Necromancers were no exception. But instead of our damage being ramped up incredibly, our utility, our support was, with modest increases to damage.

What Kunark brought to the many Necromancers who embraced their role as a support included abilities to bring back the dead, a pet that backstabs, quick-casting lifetaps, a fantastic heal (+125 for -60ish for 4 ticks), a self-Succor, a third Fear, tiny coffins, a second DA, and the most mana efficient engine until mid-Luclin.

Saying that because Necromancers can't land damage spells on Kunark raid mobs means Necromancers were treated unfairly since Necromancers are a DPS class is like saying that because Rogues can't bandage up to 100% proves the point that they were treated unfairly since Rogue is a Support Class.

I really want to believe you're trolling at this point. This perception is why Necromancers had to fight an uphill battle to group, and even more so now in P1999, because people who blindly believe Necromancer is a DPS class will be slinging DoTs onto mobs that die before 3 ticks get off, and they'll claim that's their job, no matter how inefficient and shitty it is. If you want to make arguments about the efficacy of a class based on DPS, find another class.

[Tuljin]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you're looking at this through the lens of "HOW MUCH DPS DO I DO? HURR DURR.", which is about the last thing a Necromancer should or needs to be concerned with

If you want to make arguments about the efficacy of a class based on DPS, find another class.

This

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really want to believe you're trolling at this point. This perception is why Necromancers had to fight an uphill battle to group, and even more so now in P1999, because people who blindly believe Necromancer is a DPS class will be slinging DoTs onto mobs that die before 3 ticks get off, and they'll claim that's their job, no matter how inefficient and shitty it is. If you want to make arguments about the efficacy of a class based on DPS, find another class.

I went and checked the Necromancer spell list. From 56-60, Necromancers receive 10 damage spells (including two pets) and 3 utility spells (including Death Peace from Velious).

I'm certainly not going to accuse you of trolling but I'm really surprised you can't see his point: Necromancers were designed as a DPS class, but Verant decided they were too strong in classic (remember the uproar over necromancer pets with their double FS daggers? or necros soloing the Ghoul Lord while FD?) and so in Kunark they gave Necromancers a few situationally useful utility spells instead of better pets or big upgrades to nukes. They did exactly the same thing to magicians, who got CoH and mod rods rather than a 6000HP Earth Pet.

Edit: Also the necro heal line being dispellable is almost certainly unintentional, and possibly not classic. If you don't dispell your recourse, then you heal at about 1 mana / 2 HP, i.e. worse than a Druid (and no regeneration). Also twitch means a necro can give 20 mana/tick to ONE player. An enchanter can give 14 mana / tick to the entire raid. I just don't see how you can build a class around an inefficient heal, an inefficient means of mana regeneration, and rezzing the cleric after wipes.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I went and checked the Necromancer spell list. From 56-60, Necromancers receive 10 damage spells (including two pets) and 3 utility spells (including Death Peace from Velious).

I'm certainly not going to accuse you of trolling but I'm really surprised you can't see his point: Necromancers were designed as a DPS class, but Verant decided they were too strong in classic (remember the uproar over necromancer pets with their double FS daggers? or necros soloing the Ghoul Lord while FD?) and so in Kunark they gave Necromancers a few situationally useful utility spells instead of better pets or big upgrades to nukes. They did exactly the same thing to magicians, who got CoH and mod rods rather than a 6000HP Earth Pet.

First off, you're selecting pretty heavily on your level selection which is introducing a nasty bias. You're selecting slightly more than one interval. In Kunark, we gain more utility and support than we do pure DPS abilities.

Sedulous, Trepidation, Conjure Corpse, Quivering Veil, Immobilize, Devouring, Demi-Lich. That's 7 support abilities not counting Death Peace. To get at the bias you introduce with your range selection, most Necro DoTs only get upgraded in the last 5 levels. Stretch your range out to the full Kunark era, and the majority of spells are utility, followed by DPS, followed by pets, and lastly charms.

And how many of them are unique? Necromancers gain a few really neat unique utility abilities in Kunark, whereas they get only one new damage ability in Splurt. The design shifted to emphasize their utility because their damage was horrendous in group and raid situations. Yes, necromancers can DPS while soloing. Fantastic, we get that. But they are among the worst in any type of collaborate effort, and that was true in classic.

Necromancers were designed as a support class with DPS capabilities that were not useful in any way shape or form when it comes to the game's mechanics as they stood in classic or their plans for Kunark when in a group or a raid. Created as a soloing effective class (the only place where you'd get any sort of efficiency out of your dots), but group and raid supporting class, it is when idiots try to bring their soloing into a group by saying "WE'RE A DPS!" that it damages the Necromancer's role. Heck, Enchanters can solo rather efficiently with charm pets, as that's their way of doing damage in a solo situation. So now Enchanters are a DPS class, not a support class. No, that is absurd to any form of logic. So instead of expanding Necro DPS, they realized Necromancers do best in grouping and raiding (what a MMO is ultimately about, as it is a multiplayer venture), so they emphasized the utility and support of the Necromancer class, rather than trying to scale them up more than they were to competitive DPS. And then, of course, they ruined it in PoP by turning the class into what people like Potus wanted, and caused a mass exodus of Necromancers from the game.

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Edit: Also the necro heal line being dispellable is almost certainly unintentional, and possibly not classic. If you don't dispell your recourse, then you heal at about 1 mana / 2 HP, i.e. worse than a Druid (and no regeneration). Also twitch means a necro can give 20 mana/tick to ONE player. An enchanter can give 14 mana / tick to the entire raid. I just don't see how you can build a class around an inefficient heal, an inefficient means of mana regeneration, and rezzing the cleric after wipes.

Dispelling the negative recourse is classic.

Shadowbond costs 10 mana, you give 125 per tick for 4 ticks, while loosing approximately 60 hp. If you do not dispel, that's +500 hp on the target, -240 hp on yourself, for 10 mana. A Touch of Night is 720 HP for 405 mana. That means you can generate +1500 hp for one Touch of Night worth of mana, or 405, plus the 10 to cast, or 415 mana, suggesting a 3.614457 HP per Mana, rather than the 2.0 you're citing. Further, this doesn't take into account standard ticks of HP and Iksar regen, or even the Regrowth buff of 15 a tick which is pretty vital. An Iksar with Regrowth will be getting back 18+15 = 33 a tick, and losing 60, meaning the net loss is 27, not 60, so you'd actually get an efficiency of 8.03.

A Necro can twitch to the right player, and it can go over Clarity. Each additional Enchanter added to the raid diminishes the need for any further enchanters, because you can only clarity but so much. Necromancers do not diminish other necromancers. Once you have an Enchanter to provide Clarity, the comparison is over, as you can have 2, 3, 8, 10 necromancers to boost far beyond what multiple enchanters would do. You can't put multiple Clarity's on one person. The point is that in being able to directly control our mana, we can give it to the right player, we have control at the right time. If you've never seen the benefit of a strong group of Necromancers, then I feel sorry for you, because it is significant.

This is not to say I diminish or believe an Enchanted to be less important. An Enchanter is to a mana pool what a MDPS is to a mob's HP pool: Sustained mana gain. But Enchanters do not burst (although limited comparison as Rogues do have discs to burst a bit). Necromancers are more comparable to Wizards, bursty Mana/DPS. It is incredibly useful when you need burst reactions that a slow and steady gain won't do. It's just how shamans are better at getting back mana on demand, but Necromancers are best at getting it back progressively.

You can build a class around injecting more bursts of mana into the right player at the right time to prevent wipes, while delivering considerably good heals, all with either a charm or back stabbing DPS pet. The merging of all of these do make a functional and very strong class. If you are not taking full advantage of your Necromancer and instead treating yourself as an ineffective DPS, you're severely curtailing your ability and gimping every single person you associate with to overcome PvE or PvP goals.

Edit: Please do note that I do not have specific values for the HP lost on Shadowbond, I have not done any conclusive testing lately on it, and I cannot find my notes where I had the value written down. It is about 1/2 the HP transferred.