Necro or enchanter...Go!

[baalzy]

Just going to chime in on necro healing because I think this is often forgotten now that recourse dispelling is commonly known (I didn't know about it when I was actively raiding back in 2011).

Shadowbonds recourse cannot be overwritten by Pact of Shadows recourse, but pact will still land on a target (just can't stack shadowbond+pact on the same target).

Even if recourse dispelling gets removed, this mechanic is completely and legitimately classic meaning for an additional 10 mana you can heal a second target for 320 for absolutely no additional hp cost. What does this mean? This means 2 necros working in conjunction can shadowbond their patch targets and then Pact of Shadow each other completely eliminating the need to lifetap the lost health back and even making up for lost hp due to liching. For 20 total mana.

Furthermore. Post-Velious as long as you pick up Holgresh Beads you will always have a lifetap target and if you can get VP geared you'll have a mana-free lifetap DoT. Even without Holgresh beads, stalking probes are cheap. Talk about a model of efficiency. Being able to heal others for 820 hp every 30 seconds while generating 32 additional mana/tick with no worry of having low hp due to these transfers. Soul Well is one of the biggest item upgrades a necro could ever hope for.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by baalzy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just going to chime in on necro healing because I think this is often forgotten now that recourse dispelling is commonly known (I didn't know about it when I was actively raiding back in 2011).

Shadowbonds recourse cannot be overwritten by Pact of Shadows recourse, but pact will still land on a target (just can't stack shadowbond+pact on the same target).

Even if recourse dispelling gets removed, this mechanic is completely and legitimately classic meaning for an additional 10 mana you can heal a second target for 320 for absolutely no additional hp cost. What does this mean? This means 2 necros working in conjunction can shadowbond their patch targets and then Pact of Shadow each other completely eliminating the need to lifetap the lost health back and even making up for lost hp due to liching. For 20 total mana.

Furthermore. Post-Velious as long as you pick up Holgresh Beads you will always have a lifetap target and if you can get VP geared you'll have a mana-free lifetap DoT. Even without Holgresh beads, stalking probes are cheap. Talk about a model of efficiency. Being able to heal others for 820 hp every 30 seconds while generating 32 additional mana/tick with no worry of having low hp due to these transfers. Soul Well is one of the biggest item upgrades a necro could ever hope for.

This put it far better than I did. /applaud.

[Potus]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Necromancers were a support until around Luclin/PoP era where they condensed DoTs to short duration, removed twitch, removed heals, removed pretty much all our utility (with ST being one to quickly follow), and made us rotate between 12+ DoTs.

Again, no. Necromancers are clearly a DPS class. They do damage. I'm sorry you loved twitching, but that was not even a Necro spell at launch -- it was a cheap gimmick that was put in to negate nerfing Necromancer spells. Screaming Terror was nerfed at launch. It was originally a fear+mem wipe. That was considered way too powerful and it was turned into a 2 tick Mez. It was never a defining characteristic of the class. The heals are fine, they're not going to be useful in raids. Great in Groups and Duo'ing. Terrible for all else.

We never "screamed damage". Rogues, Monks, Rangers, Wizards, these people were always on top of a Necromancer. Necromancers were in the position of being one of the inefficient DPS classes for group and raid fights until Velious when bosses started getting some real meat on them, and DoTs would tick to fruition. Our DDs are terribly inefficient relative to other specialized classes, and they would never match up to MDPS.

No. Necromancers are fantastic damage in a sustained setting like a raid. The problem is that Verant intentionally made Necro spells not land on raid targets. There was a guild on Tarrew Marr called the Necro Death Squad and they killed raid bosses with Necros only. In came the nerf bats. Lifetap was coded to resist on guys like Cazic and Inny. You had the "have to stand directly under the mob" to get it to land gameplay feature added. It was a joke.

Necromancers were not a DPS class in Classic unless you were an idiot that adds to the culture of Necromancers not being seen good in groups. A smart Necromancer knows that is not their role, and they shine in other ways, namely as a support class.

You have no idea what you're talking about which is kind of sad because you have a pretty good user guide. I don't get how you know so much about Necromancers yet don't understand what they are about. Go look at the Necromancer spell list. What gets upgraded over and over. Dots, Lifetaps, Snares, Fears, Pets. These are all used in dealing damage and killing shit.

Again, you're looking at this through the lens of "HOW MUCH DPS DO I DO? HURR DURR.", which is about the last thing a Necromancer should or needs to be concerned with, in classic, or in Kunark. It didn't even get onto the table for intelligent Necromancers until Velious when we had raid mobs with more meat on them to allow DoTs to tick, but also resulting in putting a greater need on our patching and twitching capabilities.

From Classic to Velious most guilds carried one or two necromancers at the most. Forums like EQnecro were full of Necros either quitting their class or using them to twink out new characters because the end game was completely broken for Necromancers.

No one liked twitching, which was the only role for Necromancers on raids besides Corpse Cleanup following wipes.

Here was the Necromancer experience on a raid and in most of Kunark-Velious: Sit far away from the AE (because you can't even lifetap yourself to heal and clerics aren't going to waste a CH on you), buff DMF, twitch.

That's a great class! So much fun! The genius of the Necromancer! You give about as much mana as a bard's song. That's not good gameplay, that's a fucking embarrassment of game design.

What Kunark brought to the many Necromancers who embraced their role as a support included abilities to bring back the dead, a pet that backstabs, quick-casting lifetaps, a fantastic heal (+125 for -60ish for 4 ticks), a self-Succor, a third Fear, tiny coffins, a second DA, and the most mana efficient engine until mid-Luclin.

You really love that rez, don't you? It's sad that it's the one thing you mention over and over again. Seriously, look at what other classes get in Kunark and you're obsessing over Shadowbond and tiny coffins.

I really want to believe you're trolling at this point. This perception is why Necromancers had to fight an uphill battle to group, and even more so now in P1999, because people who blindly believe Necromancer is a DPS class will be slinging DoTs onto mobs that die before 3 ticks get off, and they'll claim that's their job, no matter how inefficient and shitty it is. If you want to make arguments about the efficacy of a class based on DPS, find another class.

Again, you know nothing about a Necro and it's kind of sad. In the right situation we're one of the most efficient damage classes in the game. We're great in groups for a variety of reasons. If you just sit and cast Shadowbond and twitch I'd kick you.

[Potus]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First off, you're selecting pretty heavily on your level selection which is introducing a nasty bias. You're selecting slightly more than one interval. In Kunark, we gain more utility and support than we do pure DPS abilities.

Sedulous, Trepidation, Conjure Corpse, Quivering Veil, Immobilize, Devouring, Demi-Lich. That's 7 support abilities not counting Death Peace. To get at the bias you introduce with your range selection, most Necro DoTs only get upgraded in the last 5 levels. Stretch your range out to the full Kunark era, and the majority of spells are utility, followed by DPS, followed by pets, and lastly charms.

WHOA WHOA WHOA. You accuse this guy of bias and then you list Demi-Lich, Snare, Fear, and harmshield as support abilities?

How can you possibly accuse me of trolling when you shovel horseshit like this?

Invite that Necro into the group, he has root, a spell literally every caster except mages have! If we're going to list that as support then let me talk to you about how great Wizards are at support. Don't use any of your nukes, Wizards, you're just HRURR obsessed with damage. Embrace your Utility! Cast root and evacuate.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, no. Necromancers are clearly a DPS class. They do damage. I'm sorry you loved twitching, but that was not even a Necro spell at launch -- it was a cheap gimmick that was put in to negate nerfing Necromancer spells. Screaming Terror was nerfed at launch. It was originally a fear+mem wipe. That was considered way too powerful and it was turned into a 2 tick Mez. It was never a defining characteristic of the class. The heals are fine, they're not going to be useful in raids. Great in Groups and Duo'ing. Terrible for all else.

Enchanters do damage. Wizards do damage. Clerics do damage. That is not an acceptable criteria for what makes someone a DPS class. But, I get into this later in the post.

The heals are not useful in raids? If you're not using it, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're not using twitch, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're only using twitch, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're not using a pet, you're a bad Necromancer. Not only does it feed other necros to remove all negative side effects of Lich, but it can be incredibly useful for saving clerics needing to patch heal, preserving their mana for more important jobs.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No. Necromancers are fantastic damage in a sustained setting like a raid. The problem is that Verant intentionally made Necro spells not land on raid targets. There was a guild on Tarrew Marr called the Necro Death Squad and they killed raid bosses with Necros only. In came the nerf bats. Lifetap was coded to resist on guys like Cazic and Inny. You had the "have to stand directly under the mob" to get it to land gameplay feature added. It was a joke.

When was there a sustained setting in a raid until Velious? 32k mobs don't sustain DoT. They didn't until you get 1 million HP bosses in Velious, and it isn't until then (as I have said) that necro damage becomes a useful thing. The only other time is when soloing and you're the single producer of damage.

Yes, Lifetap was made to be resisted, there are other spells you can land on Cazic and Inny, that isn't bias towards MR. If you're so limited in your thinking that the only damage you can pump out is Lifetap, you're really missing the grand scope of what Necromancers do.

Necromancers were not in any way a reasonable sustained DPS class by any stretch of the imagination until Velious when bosses would survive long enough for DoTs to start ticking to fruition. Before this, it didn't happen because our DDs are not in any way efficient relative to other classes, because they merge utility with DD, rather than being pure DD as is the case for a DPS. I'll come back to this later.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From Classic to Velious most guilds carried one or two necromancers at the most. Forums like EQnecro were full of Necros either quitting their class or using them to twink out new characters because the end game was completely broken for Necromancers.

"Most"? Please, offer some valid evidence to this, otherwise you're just talking out of your ass. Lets see some proof of that claims, not anecdotal recounting of a time long past.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one liked twitching, which was the only role for Necromancers on raids besides Corpse Cleanup following wipes.

Don't assume that because you didn't that "no one liked twitching", nor that other necromancers would only twitch. That's a logical fault.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here was the Necromancer experience on a raid and in most of Kunark-Velious: Sit far away from the AE (because you can't even lifetap yourself to heal and clerics aren't going to waste a CH on you), buff DMF, twitch.

That's a great class! So much fun! The genius of the Necromancer! You give about as much mana as a bard's song. That's not good gameplay, that's a fucking embarrassment of game design.

An Iksar Necro with Regrowth wont need to lifetap to return health, and a well trained group of necromancers will be able to heal themselves to never need to screw with Clerics. Manage your HP/Mana, twitch, heal, buff DMF, and manage a pet. Yup, that's a great class. Better than pressing a mindless rotation like it's fucking World of Warcraft.

A bard song, an enchanter's clarity, neither will provide a burst of mana, and each causes diminishing the value of each successive class. That burst is what Necromancers do. It isn't as efficient as the sustained, burst rarely is efficient, as the loss is what you get for having it at demand. Cannibalize, Manastone, Mana robes are not efficient, but they burst. Wizards are not efficient, but they burst. Necro DoTs become efficient in Velious, because they don't burst. Necro twitches are not efficient because they burst, but by bursting, they do what sustained like a bard and an enchanter cannot do.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You really love that rez, don't you? It's sad that it's the one thing you mention over and over again. Seriously, look at what other classes get in Kunark and you're obsessing over Shadowbond and tiny coffins.

You really love those dots, don't you? It's sad that it's the one thing you mention over and over again. Seriously, look at what other classes get in Kunark and you're obsessing over DoTs and DDs.

You see, that phrase doesn't work, because you're even more overwhelmingly zealous about the role of DPS as the singular activity that Necromancer was designed for, you who did not design the class. My argument is based on the facts of the spells and abilities that were in the game, not any subjective interpretation of your reality.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You have no idea what you're talking about which is kind of sad because you have a pretty good user guide. I don't get how you know so much about Necromancers yet don't understand what they are about. Go look at the Necromancer spell list. What gets upgraded over and over. Dots, Lifetaps, Snares, Fears, Pets. These are all used in dealing damage and killing shit.

"Understand what they are about"... You mean understand what you see them as about, while ignoring the other half of the equation. My argument for support has never been, nor has in the previous responses, been that necromancers do not do DPS. A support class, I maintained, does DPS, but supports the group in numerous other ways. Much in the same way that Enchanters are a support class, but still charm to deal some significant DPS output, Necromancers are equally as Supporting. Necromancers are not, in any way, like a Rogue or a Wizard, where their abilities and behavior, when maximized in terms of efficiency, is the output of DPS. Instead, Necromancer is a class that is best played as supporting a group of players through the combination of moderate damage, moderate mana support, moderate healing, and some ninja tricks. That puts a Necromancer into the traditional category of a jack of all trades style support class, not maximized for any one behavior.

You say that because DoTs get upgraded over and over, it means that Necromancer is a DPS... And yet, twitch gets upgraded. Heals get upgraded. Cancel magics get upgraded. Roots, fears, snares get upgraded. Lich gets upgraded. So... Yeah. Your argument works against you. You'll want to start curving your argument into one of number of DoTs vs other abilities, although that one also fails.

Further, what is used in dealing damage and killing shit (Fears, snares, lifetaps) do not serve a singular purpose, so they do not equate DPS. They serve multiple purposes that intersect. A snare helps you to kill, but it does not kill. A snare is not a DPS ability. It is a utility, it is a support. Now, Darkness combines Snare with a DPS DoT, making it intersect two separate things. You can use Darkness only as a DoT, not as support, but you can use it equally as support instead of just as a DoT. This helps to distinguish the Necromancer. Similarly, lifetaps serves two purposes, to heal the necromancer to feed into the machine, and to deal offensive damage capability.

But by serving two functions, they act sub-optimally in each category. A Necro lifetap will not be as efficient as a heal would be, but it comes with a DPS component. Similarly, the DPS component is not as efficient as a wizard nuke would be, but it comes with a healing utility component that feeds into the mana generation. It is much like a Bard in D&D, proficient in many things, but master of none of them.

To say we are a DPS is to say the central focus of our abilities is for the goal of producing damage. And yet, most of our damaging abilities have a secondary function that makes then less efficient and useful than comparable other class abilities when looked at in a pure DPS light. But, if you are a smart person, you realizes that there is a careful balance and theme to most necromancer abilities. Unlike backstab, unlike rend and the like, the necromancer emanates utility and damage, but not optimizing either. In this way, a Necromancer does not fit the role of the DPS, they fit a support role, through their application of moderate DPS (and in Kunark, that is primarily through pet backstab/charm), moderate mana regeneration (through twitch), moderate heals (through necro healing, see Baalzy's post), moderate rezzing ability (relative to a cleric who can do it with no component), and moderate independence in their own health management. That's a support, that's a jack of all trades, that's a class that specializes in nothing, but touches upon most things.

Most classes have ways to kill shit, it doesn't make every class a DPS.

Originally Posted by Potus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WHOA WHOA WHOA. You accuse this guy of bias and then you list Demi-Lich, Snare, Fear, and harmshield as support abilities?

How can you possibly accuse me of trolling when you shovel horseshit like this?

Invite that Necro into the group, he has root, a spell literally every caster except mages have! If we're going to list that as support then let me talk to you about how great Wizards are at support. Don't use any of your nukes, Wizards, you're just HRURR obsessed with damage. Embrace your Utility! Cast root and evacuate.

First of all, saying someone is introducing a bias is NOT the same as saying that they are bias. Everyone can introduce a selection bias when they want to make a point, but it remains an empirical truth that the cases you select shape the results you find. It was in no way offensive to him, and you're blowing it way out of proportion by jumping to conclusions that were not called for by the language used.

You say that Snare and Fears are a CC, and that is a support ability. Demi-Lich fuels your mana machine, making it a utility that goes to be either support or DPS. Harmshield allows for you to survive and soak things that you otherwise would be unable to for your group, if you're smart.

I can accuse you of trolling because what you're saying is absurd and in denial of the strengths of the class that can be empirically demonstrated. I try to believe that more often than not, people have a decent head on their shoulders that can analyze a situation based on the evidence presented, and that is why I accuse you of trolling.

Sure, talk to me about how great Wizards are at support. Stack up Wizard DPS:Support abilities versus Necromancer DPS:Support abilities. Every class has utility, every class has some form of support, no matter how roundabout, but some classes are significantly more DPS, and more bias to it in their mechanics and their abilities. Necromancer is not one of those, there is a far more flat distribution of abilities than that. You think Wizards don't have support, or that it hurts my argument? Then you truly haven't understood a word I have written.

If you were the leader of a group that kicked a Necro who was maintaining their pet to deal modest DPS, twitching mana to the cleric and enchanter, and patch healing, in favor of someone who is going to spam DoTs that never get to tick to fruition, then you're a person I'd want nothing to do with in a group or a raid, as you do not have a mind for maximizing outputs.

Either way, I am done expending time and energy trying to explain what is obvious to anyone who has played a necro. I am more than confident anything written after this has a clear and thorough response in this or my previous posts. Nothing has been added to this conversation for weeks other than regurgitation of anecdotal nonsense. Feel free to have last word if you like, I'm done trying for your sake.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr

The heals are not useful in raids? If you're not using it, you're a bad Necromancer. If you're not using twitch, you're a bad Necromancer.

I'm not going to get into this Usenet point-by-point style of debate, but are you serious here? These are highly situational abilities.

Twitch: Sedulous Subversion has a 3:8 mana transfer ratio. Under absolutely perfect conditions you'll get 65 mana per tick (bard song, lich, torpor to get your HP back and waste nothing on taps). That means you can supply 25 mana/tick to the cleric. As an Enchanter I cast clarity on the raid and provide 200 mana/tick, not to mention haste and in some areas CC and insane charm DPS.

Necro heals: Sakuragi rolls with over 5000 HP in Kunark, and 6000 HP in Velious. With 2-3 clerics for complete heal, 125/tick becomes completely irrelevant. In fact I would regularly ask the necro to stop healing me so I could have room for useful buffs like bard MR songs or stamina potions.

Look, I'm not saying these are worthless spells. I am saying that they aren't class-defining abilities like Charm, Complete Heal, Slow, Feign Death, Lures, etc. It's cool that you have found a way to be marginally effective in spite of the bad class design, and if you enjoy it that's great for you. But the fact of the matter is that Necros were hugely OP in Classic and as a result they got hit with the nerf bat hard in Kunark, probably too hard.

edit: just to be clear, that was from a raid perspective. In groups the heals are great (twitch is even more pointless). But again it's very situational: to really shine as a necro you need a group without a cleric, and most people won't go for that. Shaman/Necro/Monk is probably your best setup there . . . and even there, I think Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is better if there are charmable mobs around. In my opinion Necromancers are very good at soloing up to 60 safely via undead charm, root rots, and fear kiting. Beyond that, there just isn't much.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not going to get into this Usenet point-by-point style of debate, but are you serious here? These are highly situational abilities.

But you're going to get into it? Lol. Okay. I'll try to answer as completely as possible to the general sentiments, rather than each particular bit of information.

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Twitch: Sedulous Subversion has a 3:8 mana transfer ratio. Under absolutely perfect conditions you'll get 65 mana per tick (bard song, lich, torpor to get your HP back and waste nothing on taps). That means you can supply 25 mana/tick to the cleric. As an Enchanter I cast clarity on the raid and provide 200 mana/tick, not to mention haste and in some areas CC and insane charm DPS.

Again, you miss the entire point of my post, so let me try to make it clearer...

You can supply 200 mana a tick to your raid. Fantastic. I have already said that Enchanters can do this, and the sustained mana offered by an enchanter is beyond what a Necromancer will provide. Now what about the 2nd enchanter? Can he or she also supply 200 mana/tick to the raid? If not (which is the case), then you'll get to the root of the difference between burst and sustained benefit to the raid.

Necromancers don't do that. We burst. We provide 150 mana every 8 seconds, faster if you mix efficiency, and use Covetous. Lets say you do, because you're super bursting. You can cast Sedulous and Covetous once every 4 seconds, to provide 250 mana every 8 seconds. It costs you 400 + 300 = 700 mana to deliver 250 mana in 8 seconds, and with a conservative mana pool of 3k, you can deliver 4 instances of 250 mana in 4 sets of 8 seconds, or 32 seconds. So I can provide 1k mana to a caster in 32 seconds. That's a bit over 5 ticks. Clarity II provides +11 mana a tick, if the wiki page is correct. In 5 ticks, a sustained Clarity II will provide 55 mana, relative to a Necromancer's 1,000.

Further, and expanding upon what I said earlier, we get 65 mana a tick by your calculations, which is, I agree, in the area (I don't really have the total, but I'll go with that). So it will take a Necromancer 4.6 minutes to get their mana back to full, to reload the 32 second 1k mana burst. Each Necromancer in the raid can provide this, whereas you only need 1 Enchanter to provide the 200 a tick.

Now again, that's 1000 to a single person, you're completely right, but when your cleric goes OOM, or your enchanters are tapped due to a shitty pull or if your raid simply wants to be faster and have mana be dished out to the core handlers (clerics/enchanters), a Necromancer shines. When you're playing slow, or you have tons of downtime in your raid or group, a Necromancer does not.

So, I will point this out again: I am not saying Necromancer is better than Enchanters in providing mana, but that we provide mana in two very different ways, and both are good to have. If your Clerics need a burst of mana so pulls can keep going, Necromancers will do better. If your Enchanters are tapped for mana trying to hold down CC, Necromancers will do better.

Enchanters are a great class, with amazing raid utility. I do not reject this, nor would I try to. But that doesn't mean Necromancers need to have the true power of their abilities eschewed, and their role made to seem different than what it is.

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

INecro heals: Sakuragi rolls with over 5000 HP in Kunark, and 6000 HP in Velious. With 2-3 clerics for complete heal, 125/tick becomes completely irrelevant. In fact I would regularly ask the necro to stop healing me so I could have room for useful buffs like bard MR songs or stamina potions.

If 2-3 clerics are going to use a Complete Heal on some small AE damage, yes, the necro heal becomes irrelevant. But take a Shaman for example. A shaman is going to be cannibalizing to get more mana to dish out buffs. A smart necromancer using their heal efficiently can save a Cleric the 300 mana to cast an Elixir. Take any situation in which you're in a group that doesn't have a cleric due to limited numbers, you can patch up DS damage, your fellow necromancers, your melee after an unfortunate enrage. All of these situations in which there are small bursts of unsustained damage (and as a Necromancer, I see them all the time, and get to patch them all the time), a Necro can save a Cleric a great deal of mana from needing to patch everyone, or a shaman mana so they don't have to torpor people that do not need it.

It is not completely irrelevant. I don't know if you play a Necromancer in a raid scene, but try it. Keep your eyes out for bits of damage that a Cleric would celestial elixir, and instead do it yourself. No, a Necromancer is not going to solo heal a tank, that's what a Cleric is for. That's why I said, Necromancers provide patch heals. You end up doing this very frequently if you have your eyes open and on the health of the raid.

Now, hopefully you have a decent enough head on your shoulders to realize these are different strengths between the classes, and if so, I'll just ignore the rest of what you wrote on the grounds of it being overly patronizing bullshit fueled by ignorance of the class. Perhaps one day, if you haven't yet (I don't see one in your sig), you'll raid extensively on a Necromancer and try what I've been saying and come to see just how big an impact you have on greasing the wheels of a raid through masterful play.

[Kadron]

Uteunayr, you make me want to play necro Tueur again lol.

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Kadron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uteunayr, you make me want to play necro Tueur again lol.

It's a damn good class, and it only gets boring if I am not doing enough. I love it. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Vandalay]

New P99er here, and I just want to say thanks to everyone for this fantastic discussion. It really helped me sort out some thoughts on a class choice.