Asking a favor from the two top guilds on the server

[finalgrunt]

I would like to officially ask both TMO and FE leaders to consider a favor for the server.

I've seen discussions about rotations failing, and it's understandable.
Small guilds acknowledge your efforts, time invested in tracking, planning, etc. But it's also obvious that people who remain in small guilds want to relive their old memories but are not ready to do as much. A lot, but not as much.

So here is the request: let other guilds have a go at Kunark raid targets during a week every 3 months.

That would exclude VP obviously. For Trakanon, that would be up to you of course as it's a sensitive target. We could also imagine that teeth handed over to your guilds, or destroyed, I don't know, it's details.

It's been two years Kunark has been out. One week every 3 months is only 8% of targets. It would not change the balance of power and we can all agree on the fact that no 3rd force will come disrupt the current top competition.

Also it would not be "free/handed out" loot. Smaller guilds may have to compete during that week, they could also decide if they want to rotate or not. Would also be a good opportunity for smaller guilds to show how they would really handle such situation.

All members from TMO and FE, thanks in advance to be kind enough to consider it.

[Tiggles]

TMO leadership would be and already is 100% fine if guilds want to contact us ahead of time and say they want to go after an outdoor dragon.

Not saying you have to ask for permission just let's us know not to track it or bat phone it.

Problem is and I don't mean this as offense divinity and other more casual guilds can not effectively compete with FE.

Not to be a slam against FE but they have a lot of new hungry members who need gear from these mobs and will race you 100% on every one.

This puts TMO in a situation where we are just allowing our direct competition access to upgrades and plat sales that we don't want them to have access too.

TMO has a bad rap and a lot of it is deserving but and I can say this truly that if a guild is not antognistic towards us we will be beneficent towards them.

The problem is again FE VDA IB TR there all the same group of core members floating from guild to guild so it makes us look like we are picking on smaller guild.

We currently let some members if taken raid VP with us and I 100% know if divinity needed help on a mob lots of us would lend a hand.

Anyways look up our endangered species program and if you can get FE to agree to not attempt a mob I'm sure TMO will do the same.

Maybe not trak or CT~

Also if you want Inny I want to roll on a mage staff for my alt ~~~~

[Thulack]

TMO leadership would be and already is 100% fine if guilds want to contact us ahead of time and say they want to go after an outdoor dragon.

Not saying you have to ask for permission just let's us know not to track it or bat phone it.

Problem is and I don't mean this as offense divinity and other more casual guilds can not effectively compete with FE.

Not to be a slam against FE but they have a lot of new hungry members who need gear from these mobs and will race you 100% on every one.

This puts TMO in a situation where we are just allowing our direct competition access to upgrades and plat sales that we don't want them to have access too.

TMO has a bad rap and a lot of it is deserving but and I can say this truly that if a guild is not antognistic towards us we will be beneficent towards them.

The problem is again FE VDA IB TR there all the same group of core members floating from guild to guild so it makes us look like we are picking on smaller guild.

We currently let some members if taken raid VP with us and I 100% know if divinity needed help on a mob lots of us would lend a hand.

Anyways look up our endangered species program and if you can get FE to agree to not attempt a mob I'm sure TMO will do the same.

Maybe not trak or CT~

Also if you want Inny I want to roll on a mage staff for my alt ~~~~

So what is the competition for? What is the finish line that decides who best is? :)

[Tiggles]

So what is the competition for? What is the finish line that decides who best is? :)

I would say the prestige and fame that comes along with being the number one guild.

Getting asked for autographs and being able to drink for free in any tavern in Norrath.


That or just being shiny in the EC tunnel and have people hate on you

[Splorf22]

I think for this to work the GMs might have to get involved and give out the spawn times. The big difference between guilds like FE/TMO and everyone else is that FE/TMO are so large that they can field 30+ players 24/7. If the smaller guilds agree to a rotation and Divinity's Trakanon spawns at 4AM, they obviously won't be able to kill it for quite a while.

Anyway I am pretty sure that if Rogean mandated a vacation for the large guilds once a week the smaller guilds could work something out. There aren't THAT many of us; Taken/Divinity/The A-Team/Full Circle/Flawless Victory/Europa is only 6 (I'm putting BDA in with the big guilds which may or may not be fair; hope I haven't forgotten anyone but I think that's all the guilds that do sky on a regular basis.), and I count twelve raid targets (plus Maestro/Draco/Trakanon spawn 2x per week) so we'd all be pretty happy with two raid targets each that week, and we could schedule stuff appropriately.

But I think Tiggles is probably right here; FE has no reason to agree to a rotation when after 3-4 months of slogging they are finally getting on an even tier with TMO, and I don't blame them. TMO on the other hand has been farming this stuff for a year now, so all they would be missing out on is a few RnF threads :D

[Tiggles]

I think for this to work the GMs might have to get involved and give out the spawn times. The big difference between guilds like FE/TMO and everyone else is that FE/TMO are so large that they can field 30+ players 24/7. If the smaller guilds agree to a rotation and Divinity's Trakanon spawns at 4AM, they obviously won't be able to kill it for quite a while.

Anyway I am pretty sure that if Rogean mandated a vacation for the large guilds once a week the smaller guilds could work something out. There aren't THAT many of us; Taken/Divinity/The A-Team/Full Circle/Flawless Victory/Europa is only 6 (I'm putting BDA in with the big guilds which may or may not be fair; hope I haven't forgotten anyone but I think that's all the guilds that do sky on a regular basis.), and I count twelve raid targets (plus Maestro/Draco/Trakanon spawn 2x per week) so we'd all be pretty happy with two raid targets each that week, and we could schedule stuff appropriately.

But I think Tiggles is probably right here; FE has no reason to agree to a rotation when after 3-4 months of slogging they are finally getting on an even tier with TMO, and I don't blame them. TMO on the other hand has been farming this stuff for a year now, so all they would be missing out on is a few RnF threads :D


Don't need spawn times dragons could stay up for like 24-48 hours or something.

I know gore stayed up for almost a week last time we didn't kill her.

In a rotation I would set a time period from spawn then it goes FFA something long though like 12-24 hours

[mrmop520]

A system along these lines would be very cool! Speaking for Full Circle, i know a large majority of us want to try these mobs out! The current system makes it almost impossible to even get a chance to attempt a mob, yet alone prepare/buff and engage without having 2 other guilds breathing on your neck. Especially with the new window-extension patch, the chances of us successfully tracking a mob, and having that mob spawn during a time of day that is not 4am-2pm is such a rare occurrence.

[RahlaeRuffian]

IMO poop socking on a blue server is just stupid. I came from a server that had rotations set up so the way things are here is just silly to me.

[Silent]

Come play red bro, Kill your opposition instead of asking permission to mooch a boss every 3 months.... Personally I think that whole rotation thing is disgusting, Though I understand TMO wanting to block FE's taking of X boss to avoid them gearing up or making plat and vice verse. So either way, Casuals are gonna miss out on those mobs until deep velious when no one cares about it anymore.

[pharmakos]

Rotations are Classic, no?

[Thulack]

IMO poop socking on a blue server is just stupid. I came from a server that had rotations set up so the way things are here is just silly to me.

[shooteneq1]

rotatations were classic on some servers and not on others, there were no rotations on my server.

[Splorf22]

You would think that the attitude would be 'well, the real game happened 10 years ago, we're all here to have fun and relive some memories, lets just rotate on the boss mobs' but instead its 'I was in a 2nd tier guild on live, so now I'm going to be the best of the best on P1999 and have more pixels than anyone else'.

[Zinyen]

You would think that the attitude would be 'well, the real game happened 10 years ago, we're all here to have fun and relive some memories, lets just rotate on the boss mobs' but instead its 'I was in a 2nd tier guild on live, so now I'm going to be the best of the best on P1999 and have more pixels than anyone else'.

i agree with this guy. its too bad

[Hobie819]

You would think that the attitude would be 'well, the real game happened 10 years ago, we're all here to have fun and relive some memories, lets just rotate on the boss mobs' but instead its 'I was in a 2nd tier guild on live, so now I'm going to be the best of the best on P1999 and have more pixels than anyone else'.

I was in a tier one back in the day, so now I'm re-enjoying the family guild aspect~

[Tierael]

It would be nice to see some sharing for once. Though I suspect once FE officially breaks thru VP's front door, Div/Taken/BDA/FC/FV would see a few bosses slip through the fingers of these 2 as they battle it out in the final chapter of Kunark. I know BDA is thrilled with even getting so much as a Maestro kill these days :)

[finalgrunt]

No known spawn time is required. It's not a question of being spoon fed. If a guild wants some specific mobs they would have to -loosely- track and mobilize for the targets. If something is up, it stays up for few hours (that's how it was on classic for many targets anyway).

It will be smaller guilds responsibility to manage the balance of power (be it rotation, tiered competition or whatever).

That would give a one week vacation to the guides and top guilds every 3 months (minus VP, that would help you focus only on this aspect).

I've read how much FE & TMO care about smaller guilds, I'm only asking for some true action this time. TMO could think about it as a condensed endangered species.

Also since I don't have any mandate among the smaller guilds, I don't want to talk for them, and I invite respective leaders of such guilds to try and discuss it with Zeelot & Sloan.

Make it happen! :)

[Brut]

Dojo not on variance, is chain of 3 raid targets, results in goodies for all classes when slain, opens a ton of sky quests for alot of guilds. Could be rotation for guilds capable of doing sky up to island7, or if cant handle OoA/hand would leave those up for grabs for a guild that can. Also would remove the godawful weekly FTE idiocy at 1.5.

<--- not a spokesperson for FE by any means though!

[Sizzle]

People seem to be forgetting also, Kunark has been out more than 200% longer than it was on live too. This has given TMO and (maybe) FE time to gear most mains + alts. While most of the rest of the server in most cases can not compete. Would love to see some more of the server with some of the nicer gear and feeling of accomplishment of killing some kunark end game. I think it would be fun for all and a healthy step in the right direction of the server. People might start to think differently of the server and we could see a lot of returning players possibly... Thats what it is about for most of the smaller guilds anyway, a sense of accomplishing a target take when they would have an actual chance to kill it.

[maverixdamighty]

TMO leadership would be and already is 100% fine if guilds want to contact us ahead of time and say they want to go after an outdoor dragon.

Not saying you have to ask for permission just let's us know not to track it or bat phone it.

Problem is and I don't mean this as offense divinity and other more casual guilds can not effectively compete with FE.

Not to be a slam against FE but they have a lot of new hungry members who need gear from these mobs and will race you 100% on every one.

This puts TMO in a situation where we are just allowing our direct competition access to upgrades and plat sales that we don't want them to have access too.

TMO has a bad rap and a lot of it is deserving but and I can say this truly that if a guild is not antognistic towards us we will be beneficent towards them.

The problem is again FE VDA IB TR there all the same group of core members floating from guild to guild so it makes us look like we are picking on smaller guild.

We currently let some members if taken raid VP with us and I 100% know if divinity needed help on a mob lots of us would lend a hand.

Anyways look up our endangered species program and if you can get FE to agree to not attempt a mob I'm sure TMO will do the same.

Maybe not trak or CT~

Also if you want Inny I want to roll on a mage staff for my alt ~~~~

Wasn't aware tiggles was speaking for FE now (you can't make a comment on what we will or won't race for, pretty sure a thread was started about TMO running over a full circle draco raid and we said we had no problem giving them a shot at it uncontested). I'm not either stating that upfront. My opinion is though that FE has just started getting a lot of these targets and does have a lot of new members to gear. If this was tmo/ib I could see this happening as they really don't need the gear for their "core" players, but FE still does have a legitimate need for the mobs hence going after them.

I think there are some mobs that are lesser priorities that could be left up every now and then but the argument that some people want to see the content but don't want to put in the time seems weak to me. Last I checked everquest was all about time invested versus the rewarded outcome. Was on classic and is here.

There are targets that are available as some people have pointed out and no one is attempting them or contesting them it seems. I think this kind of suggestions would get more backing if any of the guilds who wanted the mob were showing more initiative to do the stuff on their own. Again just my opinion.

[Lanuven]

Wasn't aware tiggles was speaking for FE now (you can't make a comment on what we will or won't race for, pretty sure a thread was started about TMO running over a full circle draco raid and we said we had no problem giving them a shot at it uncontested). I'm not either stating that upfront. My opinion is though that FE has just started getting a lot of these targets and does have a lot of new members to gear. If this was tmo/ib I could see this happening as they really don't need the gear for their "core" players, but FE still does have a legitimate need for the mobs hence going after them.

I think there are some mobs that are lesser priorities that could be left up every now and then but the argument that some people want to see the content but don't want to put in the time seems weak to me. Last I checked everquest was all about time invested versus the rewarded outcome. Was on classic and is here.

There are targets that are available as some people have pointed out and no one is attempting them or contesting them it seems. I think this kind of suggestions would get more backing if any of the guilds who wanted the mob were showing more initiative to do the stuff on their own. Again just my opinion.

Left Divinity 3 weeks ago. Now spokesperson for FE.

Time invested vs reward would be a great argument if it wasn't a total load of bs. Its easy to give up tracking and bat phoning mobs for a week. BDA did it. Its just a matter of how much your guild really cares about everyone else, and not just themselves. FE has shown that in the past, and im sure TMO has maybe once or twice. But yalls E-peen competition effects the server as a whole when we are just trying to have fun. Stomping the less aggressive guild for pixels is just selfish.

[maverixdamighty]

Left Divinity 3 weeks ago. Now spokesperson for FE.

Time invested vs reward would be a great argument if it wasn't a total load of bs. Its easy to give up tracking and bat phoning mobs for a week. BDA did it. Its just a matter of how much your guild really cares about everyone else, and not just themselves. FE has shown that in the past, and im sure TMO has maybe once or twice. But yalls E-peen competition effects the server as a whole when we are just trying to have fun. Stomping the less aggressive guild for pixels is just selfish.

pretty sure i said specifically i was speaking for myself, and I had the same sentiment when I was in divinity. Also left divinity 6 weeks ago, thanks pal!

[webrunner5]

High end raiding on here is just a total "Cluster F..k". Lets not sugar coat it. If you want to be the top turd guild on here you have to be a turd. Plain and simple. Ain't going to change. Might end up a different guild down the road but will be the same old crap.

[uygi]

I've always been in favor of sharing peacefully and letting other guilds have a shot sometimes.

If it was my call and I could give a smaller guild a shot before we engaged without having it hand the kill to TMO I'd do it for most* mobs. Some of the rarer and more desperately needed drops are going to mess this up a little. As Tiggles said, not so keen on handing off CT/Trak and I'd maybe add VS/Inny to that list.

Pretty sure an agreement to leave Gore open could be worked out, and my apologies if that sounds like just the bottom of the muffin. Nobody that kills Gore on a regular basis really enjoys/appreciates it anyways!

[Splorf22]

I just laugh when people talk about time -> pixels. It's supposed to be a game that is fun, not a joyless acquisition of bits on rogean's server.

[Shinko]

FE is open to rotations.

simple as that.

[Shinko]

There are targets that are available as some people have pointed out and no one is attempting them or contesting them it seems. I think this kind of suggestions would get more backing if any of the guilds who wanted the mob were showing more initiative to do the stuff on their own. is right on the money

it's the reason we (the 4) made FE since bda was not the type of guild that we had to be to get targets
FE is open to any rotation if somone wanted to come up with something that was fair for big guilds and small guilds.

[Lazortag]

There are targets that are available as some people have pointed out and no one is attempting them or contesting them it seems ...

What targets?

[fishingme]

What targets?

Ambassador DVinn

[Splorf22]

If you want a rotation, I think the simplest thing is exactly what Daimadoshi said: the big guilds take 1 week off out of N (probably something in the 6-10 range) and let the smaller guilds try and work something out and see what happens.

[SCB]

I think it's completely insane that people are batphoning to zerg down 10 year-old bosses.

But what do I know.

[Shinko]

Faydedar
Severilous
Talendor
Gorenaire
Trakanon
Maestro of Rancor
Dracoliche
Innoruuk
Cazic Thule
Venril Sathir
Lord Nagafen
Lady Vox
Plane of Sky


why not start with Vox,
Nagafen |
Noble Dojorn Overseer of Air The Hand of Veeshan?

in the last year TMO has only killed 51 vox's in a ro and i lead a pug raid for the week they could not raid

lots of noobies could enjoy killing naggy in a pug raid

and lesser guilds could have a sky day rotation with dojo spawn?

in a ideal world i guess

then we could talk about dragons and gods

[pharmakos]

the big guilds should let smaller guilds try every raid boss that pops for awhile (more than one week every three months), but then as soon as the smaller guild wipes the big guys are allowed to step in. =p lets be real, the big guys would still get 80%+ of the kills. and they'd get to laugh while the smaller guilds fail hard.

every three months isn't nearly enough. i've only been on this server for 9 months.

[Shinko]

something on lines of with X time of mob spawning guild cant leave up for longer then X/h or goes to next on list ect

Guild 1 | Guild 2 | Open to (guild 3-X) | FTE | FTE ~~~
Guild 1 | Guild 2 | Guild 3 | Open to (guild 4-X) | FTE | FTE ~~

something like this would be alright

G1/G2 | top 2 guilds

[Rhambuk]

only issue with vox and naggy is the lvl 52 cap, we dont all have geared alts to farm dragons. Not to say it isnt a good start but might be hard for some guilds simply because they dont have that many lvl 52 alts

[maverixdamighty]

only issue with vox and naggy is the lvl 52 cap, we dont all have geared alts to farm dragons. Not to say it isnt a good start but might be hard for some guilds simply because they dont have that many lvl 52 alts

it only takes like 2 groups of them with level 60 buffs

[Shinko]

I think it's completely insane that people are batphoning to zerg down 10 year-old bosses.

But what do I know.

]I think it's completely insane that people are killing 10 year-old bosses. but it's fun

[Rhambuk]

bleh now i gotta level another char, forgot i sold my 52 with everything else =p

[Splorf22]

It would be cool to actual up-and-coming guilds kill nagafen rather than the 10th alts of players who have been on the server for two years (like me).

[Lazortag]

There are targets that are available as some people have pointed out and no one is attempting them or contesting them it seems.

I'm still curious about what targets this refers to.

Also, I totally think there should be a rotation for the noble cycle in Sky. It makes no sense to force guilds to poopsock it when the timer is already known and it just comes down to who gets FTE. It seems like a big waste of the GMs' time. The probability of getting FTE is still roughly 1/N (where N is the number of guilds contesting it) and it just wastes sky stones for the other N-1 guilds to force them to go up there. Everyone would benefit if it were rotated; you could even restrict it to the guilds who are capable of killing Hand (ie, have keys to isle 8) and have already killed Noble/Overseer before.

[Rhambuk]

The only thing I can think of as far as mobs being up and no one going for them is Gorenaire, she was up for nearly a week not too long ago and no one killed her..well until tmo/fe finished trak/vs or whatever they were more concerned with

[Shinko]

well it comes to TMO on starting with noble and crew

[zanderklocke]

only issue with vox and naggy is the lvl 52 cap, we dont all have geared alts to farm dragons. Not to say it isnt a good start but might be hard for some guilds simply because they dont have that many lvl 52 alts

Yeah, most of my guild's raid force, including myself, do not have a character that is at the right level for Vox or Nagafen. Most of us are too high for Vox and Nagafen, and as a casual raiding guild, it isn't feasible for 80% of us to have characters leveled to 52 just for these mobs, especially when we probably wouldn't get them anyway (not including a rotation).

[Woahnelly]

It's obvious that the server as a whole would benefit from a full fledged rotation. I think that the way raid content is currently monopolized is insane! This is a game after all. A rotation monitored by a gm similar to something done with fippy on live would be best.

Thoughts?

[Metallikus]

in classic, there were a ton of PUG raids for vox / naggy once with 52 cap came into being. It was a community builder.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Dear Finalgrunt

I'm an old time player, and I'm assuming you are too. You can go look at old FoH forums and Quellious forums, if you can find them, and yup, there I am, Sadre the enchanter.

I just wanted to say, your post made me sad. I'm not even gonna go into eq-speak and start using technical language like "spawn windows," /random, "lock out," duels, or anything else that *could* be used to make things more lively and so much less -- sigh, how to put it? -- predictably how every mmo game dies and becomes boring as fuck.

But your post made me sad. Because these sorts of negotiations *do* go on, just not in p99 apparently. Guild alliances, gang-ups in order to overthrow top guilds, ll kinds of things happened in live.

But not here, not now, and not in the foreseeable mudflated future..

Yours is such a modest request.

And it is sad, isn;t it? Classic eq is about as close as we have ever gotten to a sandbox online game, imho. The possibilities of competition are really up to us.


And all our geniuses can come up with is the usual batphone, spam keys until spawn, FTE wins.

Classic often *avoided* this outcome. On my server, quellious, people got bored and broke top guilds up, rather than live like this. And that was when expansions came faster!

Anyway, Divinity just got a thumbs up from me, if it matters. But I hope you don;t get what you want. Because it still sucks. A zerg guild with batphones and loot council is basically the worst guild structure eq produced. I will argue that IN THE ARENA FUCKER. lol. Couldn;t resist. old Sadre got out.

But that worst possible guild structure and method owns p99. Until someone realizes, there are ways to play in a persistent world that does not involve making the order of things persistent. We can change the world.

Everyone now, grab your juiceboxes and sing with me, "We can CHAA_AAAANGE the WOOOO OOOOOOOORLD.


wave one...

[Shinko]

something on lines of with X time of mob spawning guild cant leave up for longer then X/h or goes to next on list ect

Guild 1 | Guild 2 | Open to (guild 3-X) | FTE | FTE ~~~
Guild 1 | Guild 2 | Guild 3 | Open to (guild 4-X) | FTE | FTE ~~

something like this would be alright

G1/G2 | top 2 guilds

[Danth]

These types of threads, and the raid scene on P1999 in general, consistently illustrate why newer online role-playing games tend to use substantial amounts of instancing. Monopolization of content doesn't happen in such environments and the only people who care are the unhappy few who judge their self-worth based on what other folks do or don't have. That's not a solution for P1999 of course; it's outside the scope of this server. Come to think of it, variance is also outside the stated scope of this server so I guess it's just as applicable.

The 'socking that happens here sort of benefits me in a roundabout way. I don't much care about raiding, so 100 people sitting on Sathir's spawn point is 100 people who aren't camping the stuff the wife and I want to do.

Danth

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

The 'socking that happens here sort of benefits me in a roundabout way. I don't much care about raiding, so 100 people sitting on Sathir's spawn point is 100 people who aren't camping the stuff the wife and I want to do.

Danth

But you do have to ask, is this good gaming? because what you are saying is, the end game content is dominated by zerg guilds who spam keys for hours to get FTE, which then leaves vast expanses of the game open for you to explore with a friend, in this case your wife.

That sounds like a heat death of the gameworld: the end game, the allegedly "for serious gamers only" game, is really just getting in a loot line in a zerg key spamming loot council guild, and then, those who are just putzing around for old times sake on lesser stuff.

If someone presented that as *an actual design for a game* they would be drummed out of the business.

Granted, it may work for you and your wife, but it is still not healthy. It is the least imaginative solution to what to do with the high end eq sandbox, which gives you a server to get nostalgic on once or twice a week.

So it has settled: those who get into the ZKPLC guild, and the ultra casual.

Without a solid mid-game that can potentially cause havoc with the high end, all you got is an autopilot server. Weird OCD types running guilds that just endlessly farm all spawns, and give out the candy by officer vote fiat. Weird trip, man, weird trip.

Reminds me of Darkoor and Vis Maior on quellious. And we all know what happened to him

edit: google darkoor mistell

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6198/darkoor.gif

[Jarnauga]

Talendor
Gorenaire
Efreeti cycle
vox/naggy
Faydedar maybe ?

These are pretty much useless to FE/TMO. Let's start with these ones and see how it goes.. I'd suggest that the leaders of the "little" guilds speak of the terms together on vent or something.

Something along the lines of: 2 hours upon pop to kill the target or you're losing your spot, if you wipe you lose your spot. if you wipe 3 times in a row on the same mob you just lose your spot for like 3 rounds..

[Splorf22]

Shinko correct me if I'm wrong but are you proposing something like:

1st spawn: TMO
2nd spawn: FE
3rd spawn: everyone not in TMO/FE
4th spawn: TMO/FE race
5th spawn: TMO/FE race

If you can get TMO to agree to it I think it would be a pretty reasonable plan. I don't think TMO will agree to it though. I don't understand it, but they enjoy the current raid scene. Especially Eccezan would miss his RnF posts too much.

But I think you had a solid idea and I'll support you if you want/need it (for whatever that is worth).

[Splorf22]

Talendor
Gorenaire
Efreeti cycle
vox/naggy
Faydedar maybe ?

These are pretty much useless to FE/TMO. Let's start with these ones and see how it goes.. I'd suggest that the leaders of the "little" guilds speak of the terms together on vent or something.

Something along the lines of: 2 hours upon pop to kill the target or you're losing your spot, if you wipe you lose your spot. if you wipe 3 times in a row on the same mob you just lose your spot for like 3 rounds..

I think you have a reasonable idea for rotation rules but you are missing a huge element: time of day. For example I am pretty confident if we set up a batphone the A-Team could kill Talendor at about 5PM-1AM EST. Outside those times, we probably can't. BDA probably still has enough people that they could kill the weaker dragons 24/7 but I would say FV, FC, Divinity, and Taken probably could not, although hey, I could be wrong. Fay in particular is a 1 group mob if you have the right classes/gear. Gorenaire on the other hand I think would be almost have to be a combined effort.

[Sirken]

I think you have a reasonable idea for rotation rules but you are missing a huge element: time of day. For example I am pretty confident if we set up a batphone the A-Team could kill Talendor at about 5PM-1AM EST. Outside those times, we probably can't. BDA probably still has enough people that they could kill the weaker dragons 24/7 but I would say FV, FC, Divinity, and Taken probably could not, although hey, I could be wrong. Fay in particular is a 1 group mob if you have the right classes/gear. Gorenaire on the other hand I think would be almost have to be a combined effort.

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.

[Lanuven]

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.

This is RNF material here..terrible idea.

[finalgrunt]

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.

If players want to compete with the top guild(s), they can just join them. I wonder sometimes if you understand how unattractive the raid scene can be for some players, who don't see it as a classic experience. Log lawyering, GM lobbying, huge variance meaning having to track for endless hours etc., being able to log on a computer seconds away from a batphone (and thus having some alts to play).

We can all agree here that it will not change. And asking top guilds to enter a rotation seems doomed to fail (at least with the current protagonists). That is not my request.

I'm just asking the top guilds to open a window, the said week every X weeks, so smaller guilds can raid more like they want, and not how they would be forced to.

It would still leave a overwhelming amount of time for the top guilds to compete for 90% and more of the loot. Really, it's not asking for much. And yes, it's giving away on purpose some of the loot. But I know for a fact it would appease many smaller guilds, which would have their fun by just attempting these targets every now and then. That's all they need. Give little, for maximum benefits.

And by doing this, all the rotation discussion will be catered to smaller guilds, which will decide how to handle that week.

As people pointed out, start with some of the dragons. I know many people in FE would agree, it comes down to TMO to shake the hand on this.

Something like:

Talendor
Gorenaire
vox/naggy
Faydedar
Dracoliche

One week every X weeks. You decide.

(and this may or may not create some drama, which will entertain you in RnF for hours. You know you want it).

[Danth]

If someone presented that as *an actual design for a game* they would be drummed out of the business.

I agree with your post in general. I want to respond to this specific part by pointing out that Everquest was a deeply-flawed game even when it was new. With the passage of years it's thoroughly obsolete in terms of both technology and base design. I like enough about this game to consider my time here well-spent, but I never think of EQ as perfect.


Those second-tier guilds don't merge on their way to the top because they don't want to be at the top. They just want to see the content now and then. I don't even raid and I understand that much. Unfortunately, such a mindset works better in newer games that have measures in place to prevent a single entity from monopolizing everything. Hopefully the parties involved can correct that problem on their own.

For my part, I'll continue putzing around in lesser content (which is a very good description of how I play, actually). It works for me. Maybe some day I'll find a guild of folks content to do the same.

Danth

[Woahnelly]

I am sure that far more players would be happy with a full rotation than would not (namely TMO and possibly FE). The best idea would be to have a GM set it up and run it. This would still take far less time then dealing with countless bickering and fte petitions.

proposal: have two tiers of raiding guilds and two tiers of raid targets.
Basically, guilds take turns killing target mobs. They have a 12 hour window after spawn to take down their mob regardless of how many times they wipe. After the window expires, the mob drops to the next guild in rotation.

To be able to qualify, a guild must demonstrate the ability to defeat a specific mob in the rotation. Not sure if gm's are able to do something like spawn the mob with no loot. To enter t1, a guild most have x amount of keys to VP or something of the sort.

This solution has more benefits than cons for sure. This is a GAME, lets give everybody a chance to enjoy all of its content.

TMO/FE --> if you guys are hellbent on arguing who is top guild, etc. then I suggest you all just go to the arena, whip it out, and battle.

Thoughts?

[Lazortag]

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

...


Being part of a guild means you can exclude people you'd prefer not to be guilded with. One of our policies for example is that we don't allow people who've been banned for MQ/SEQ. So if we merged with 3 other guilds, we'd have to unconditionally let in a bunch of players who we'd otherwise reject, and allow them to skip our app processes. I'm not trying to sound elitist, I'm sure that the aforementioned guilds wouldn't want to lower their standards either. Your suggestion is patently ridiculous otherwise it would have been tried already.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

So if the raid scene makes merging necessary to compete, is it the smaller guilds who are at fault, or is it the raid scene that is flawed? Casual guilds have many players in them who were in top raid guilds on Live. It's not that we're incapable of competing or somehow inept at this game, it's that this is a different version of the game we all played, and in this version, the cost of competing at TMO/FE's level is unreasonable.

(I'm predicting a response that accuses me of being a socialist, wanting rotations on every mob, and/or of wanting the variance removed entirely when none of those were mentioned in my post)

[jkfranklin]

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.
And these guilds are years behind in gear because the content is way behind to where these guilds alts are geared out. Your solution is a 100 man zerg guild. Well played.

[maverixdamighty]

I am sure that far more players would be happy with a full rotation than would not (namely TMO and possibly FE). The best idea would be to have a GM set it up and run it. This would still take far less time then dealing with countless bickering and fte petitions.

proposal: have two tiers of raiding guilds and two tiers of raid targets.
Basically, guilds take turns killing target mobs. They have a 12 hour window after spawn to take down their mob regardless of how many times they wipe. After the window expires, the mob drops to the next guild in rotation.

To be able to qualify, a guild must demonstrate the ability to defeat a specific mob in the rotation. Not sure if gm's are able to do something like spawn the mob with no loot. To enter t1, a guild most have x amount of keys to VP or something of the sort.

This solution has more benefits than cons for sure. This is a GAME, lets give everybody a chance to enjoy all of its content.

TMO/FE --> if you guys are hellbent on arguing who is top guild, etc. then I suggest you all just go to the arena, whip it out, and battle.

Thoughts?

No.

[maverixdamighty]

Being part of a guild means you can exclude people you'd prefer not to be guilded with. One of our policies for example is that we don't allow people who've been banned for MQ/SEQ. So if we merged with 3 other guilds, we'd have to unconditionally let in a bunch of players who we'd otherwise reject, and allow them to skip our app processes. I'm not trying to sound elitist, I'm sure that the aforementioned guilds wouldn't want to lower their standards either. Your suggestion is patently ridiculous otherwise it would have been tried already.



So if the raid scene makes merging necessary to compete, is it the smaller guilds who are at fault, or is it the raid scene that is flawed? Casual guilds have many players in them who were in top raid guilds on Live. It's not that we're incapable of competing or somehow inept at this game, it's that this is a different version of the game we all played, and in this version, the cost of competing at TMO/FE's level is unreasonable.

(I'm predicting a response that accuses me of being a socialist, wanting rotations on every mob, and/or of wanting the variance removed entirely when none of those were mentioned in my post)

I know you pretty well and you know my stance on this when I was in divinity and even now. The only difference here and on live is all this extra built in variance crap. On live the vast majority of servers had top guilds similar to tmo/fe that monopolized the spawns they wanted. This opened up for other guilds when new content opened up. IMO that is the only thing that is going to help this server.

[KotBK]

The fact Sirken suggests being pro-zerg makes me wonder why Nilbog who is anti-zerg allows him to be at the top of the GM ladder with such differing ideals.

Both good gents obviously, but still i would have to side with the creator of the project rather than the lead GM. This raid scene isn't classic albeit for many reasons, possibly Rogean feels the same way as Sirken (this i don't know). None the less there is a change that should be made and it isn't forcing guilds to do as they don't please.

I would assume the majority of this server has experience of having played this game in the past and knows the general way to play it. With that being said it leaves little room for the argument of people being less skilled or unknowing with a population of minuscule percentage being truly fresh to the game. The game is just that a game, it was made to be fun and to share in that experience with others. Just because guilds aren't getting the mobs now doesn't mean they can't or don't have the drive, many just prefer not to get involved with the current set of tactics required to do so. Still even so the beauty of a game like this is fun can still be had in many ways.

Nilbog's proposed ideas just need to come sooner rather than later because i think that they will atleast help alleviate the pressure and tension of these forms of discussion until Velious (or more content in general) is released. After all many of us are here for nostalgic purposes so just to see the mobs regardless of failed attempts still provides a rush, one in which all deserve to get an opportunity to experience in my opinion.

[Splorf22]

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.

So when I read this post, Sirken, I was simply shocked. You aren't wrong per se: if you want to raid on P1999, the formula is to join a 100 man zerg so that tracking hours can be distributed and there will be enough people to log in a raid force 24/7. It was TR's formula when they merged with IB, TMO's formula when they merged with DA, and now FE's formula. It's a formula anyone can follow. EQ simply isn't that hard.

What shocked me is that you don't understand that the current raiding scene is not fun for probably 2/3 of the players. It's like a hotdog eating contest: it sounds good but you just end up vomiting. I could app TMO or FE and probably get in, but I made the A-Team specifically because I didn't want to play the batphone/poopsock/fte sniping game. I think the encounters are much more fun with fewer players. I have spent some time with TMO in VP and other than the forum trolls they are all ready nice guys, but its just not that fun because with 45-55 players the dragons are simply annihilated. Challenge level: 0. Pixels: considerable.

And finally, don't you think its a bit ironic that you are criticizing players for 'failing to compete' when what makes the competition so annoying is variance, and variance is . . . not classic at all? We have a server where the compass is disabled because its not classic, but the most important aspect of the raid scene is deliberately changed to only allow huge zerg guilds to succeed.

[uygi]

the big guilds should let smaller guilds try every raid boss that pops for awhile (more than one week every three months), but then as soon as the smaller guild wipes the big guys are allowed to step in. =p lets be real, the big guys would still get 80%+ of the kills. and they'd get to laugh while the smaller guilds fail hard.
That's a much hairier idea than you probably realize. There are encounters right now, most notably Inny, CT and Trak, where one guild's wipe can often kill the other guild, at which point it turns into a real shit show. Then somebody messes up their CR (or maybe it's on purpose) and everybody gets trained again, etc. More guilds present, especially with less experience, lower levels and less encounter understanding would only make it worse. Then on top of that, FE and TMO (plus whoever else might theoretically be down to try) have the mess of trying to FTE versus eachother immediately as the smaller guild wipes. It would be a real mess. Now if TMO and FE were to /random to see who goes first instead of an all-out FTE lottery, that would solve this and some other problems (especially the problem of a guild with insufficient force getting a kill, which goes both ways).


If players want to compete with the top guild(s), they can just join them.
...
And asking top guilds to enter a rotation seems doomed to fail (at least with the current protagonists).

New guilds have come up to compete in the last couple years with varying success. When I joined in 2010, DA and IB were the established top dogs. Between long-term alliances, short-term cooperation and competing on their own, VD certainly managed to win things in its time. TMO began its attempt to raid seriously when Kunark came out, and was a challenger at the time to IB/TR and DA/Asc/Fusion. TMO ultimately merged with DA/Asc/Fusion. BDA did, for a brief while, manage to put up some competition for TMO. And once upon a time Divinity got god and dragon kills as well (or so I'm told). You have to be willing to try and willing to fail a bunch before you start winning on a competitive server.

Also, TMO, IB and VD at one time had a three-way raiding agreement which set Trak/VP rotations and established rules beyond the server rules, and later IB/TMO had a 2-guild agreement. It could happen again. The #1 thing that I think prevents rotation is people across any guilds involved getting all butthurt or uppity about crap.


Being part of a guild means you can exclude people you'd prefer not to be guilded with.
...
So if we merged with 3 other guilds, we'd have to unconditionally...

No, you wouldn't. There would be terms set. Most likely, one guild would absorb another and exercise primary authority. That's how that kind of thing usually works.


Also, the smaller guilds can work together to apply pressure. Get some spawn windows figured out, and when Trak is late in window know what else is in window and go for it, because FE and TMO are going to be focused on Trak. Heck, let's insert some code that makes world dragons likely to spawn any time Trak is alive. That'll give small guilds a head start.

Also, I think Sirken completely understands what's going on on the server. It's people crowded in a bubble working within a fairly arbitrary but necessary rules framework according to a pattern that has developed over years. He's just being realistic. It isn't Sirken job to dictate how we can make the raid scene equitable; he just works on the GM side within the same framework as the players, dealing with the limitations and enforcing the rules of the server.

[Tenlaar]

Just as a random question, is it possible to do in-game polls with this server's set up? I would love to see the results of an "are you satisfied with the raiding scene" poll.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

the answer would be "yes," because the poll itself would be zerged. accounts created, characters power leveled up to the voting level, all to win the vote. that is how deep the sickness runs.

[uygi]

Just as a random question, is it possible to do in-game polls with this server's set up? I would love to see the results of an "are you satisfied with the raiding scene" poll.

I doubt it, just because there's nothing that limits the number of characters or accounts any one person has. It would get messed with.

[slappytwotoes]

This thread is getting derailed by Sirken's comments... no guilds need to merge.

Is TMO on board with this? CHECK (according to Tiggles)
Is FE on board with this? CHECK (I think.. according to Shinko)

We still need:

Confirm 1 week every 3 months;
Confirm the raid targets (outdoor dragons + Draco/Maestro?) or all raid targets?
Confirm timer to FTE (24 hours?);
anything else?;

Smaller guilds on board?
A-Team? CHECK (according to Lorean)
Divinity? CHECK (according to OP)
Taken?
Full Circle?
Flawless?
any other I missed?

Let's finish this checklist and see where we're at.

[Shinko]

Shinko correct me if I'm wrong but are you proposing something like:

1st spawn: TMO
2nd spawn: FE
3rd spawn: everyone not in TMO/FE
4th spawn: TMO/FE race
5th spawn: TMO/FE race

If you can get TMO to agree to it I think it would be a pretty reasonable plan. I don't think TMO will agree to it though. I don't understand it, but they enjoy the current raid scene. Especially Eccezan would miss his RnF posts too much.

But I think you had a solid idea and I'll support you if you want/need it (for whatever that is worth).

4th and 5th Every Guild Race and if a guild thats not tmo get on the racemob with out pooping or somthing gets put on rotation list? somthing like this i don't know yet i will have to come up with somthing that fair for all partys if guilds would really want somthing. but this is just an idea, and such so

also stop calling tmo and fe zerg guilds im sorry the a team has like 6 players but the core of each guild tmo and fe is really small so

ie if vel dropped right now FE would not be getting lots of targets

[pharmakos]

the big guilds should let smaller guilds try every raid boss that pops for awhile (more than one week every three months), but then as soon as the smaller guild wipes the big guys are allowed to step in. =p lets be real, the big guys would still get 80%+ of the kills. and they'd get to laugh while the smaller guilds fail hard.

every three months isn't nearly enough. i've only been on this server for 9 months.

That's a much hairier idea than you probably realize. There are encounters right now, most notably Inny, CT and Trak, where one guild's wipe can often kill the other guild, at which point it turns into a real shit show. Then somebody messes up their CR (or maybe it's on purpose) and everybody gets trained again, etc. More guilds present, especially with less experience, lower levels and less encounter understanding would only make it worse.

oh well at least it'd be lulzy

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.

"you guys don't like that the end game on this server is just a FTE/batphone competition? well the obvious solution is to merge and form another FTE/batphone guild!"

srsly?

[Vianna]

I came to this server because it was advertised as a classic server. I started a cleric because it is what I first played on live. All the way through as I was leveling in gfay, crushbone,unrest,and mistmoore the game was a pretty good representation of what I remembered and it was fun to play just like I remembered. I worked hard with several close guildies to grow Full Circle so we could simply get into planes and start getting people geared.... A lot of non-selfish people worked their tails off to get us there too. Still I was having the time of my life playing the game again I enjoyed .. I mean it was truly a joy to finally break through fear and hate with low numbers and start gearing up. We grew fast after that. Numbers swelled and before we knew it we had a player base of really skilled players for the most part who knew their classes well. We were excited at the prospects.....


That is where the classic experience stopped. Huge Variance windows .....Non-stop tracking of mobs....Bat-phones bringing forth zerg forces flooding the zones we were in when mobs spawned....It was like a butchered representation of what everquest was like to me and a lot of others. There was no shot to get a mob unless you did 1 or 2 things...... Do what they are doing or wait till a mob was late in window and sit there at it. We personally are a casual guild so there just was never gonna be enough people that wanted to spend their time on a tracker for the 5 or 6 hours they get to play and not be guaranteed of seeing the mob they are tracking... when they would rather be doing something fun with their time. So we chose the former route. We watched windows of mobs and started seeing which ones we had the force to kill and we took people to them. The next patch that came out took that option away with extended windows.

So now we are back to the point of trying to compete for mobs people need for their epics with casual players. A few months ago we were discussing shortening variance and having simulated patches. Instead we have a possible longer variance on raid mobs with no further discussion on simulated patch days. It makes you stop to ask yourself why are we intentionally going in a direction in the raid scene that alienates most of your server population from it ? I would be all for a rotation with any guild honestly. For just about any mob. Just to have fun attempting them again. I know there can't be a full sense of success for anyone when it turns into an FTE contest. It wasn't for me when I was there and we got Inny. It just leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.

I think I am with Splorf on this one. The most fun I have in EQ and ever had in EQ was raiding with the bare minimum and seeing if you could get it done. There is no challenge to the game when you send 40 people at a mob to zerg it to death. It gets the loot fast sure, but I read TMO say they enjoyed raiding to raid.... Not for the loot in another thread. Does TMO or FE honestly enjoy having 30 people from each side zerging a mob to death that lives a grand total of 10 seconds and poses no challenge at all ? I dunno I guess I am different, I enjoy games for the challenge they represent. There simply is no challenge besides a race on this server if you want to compete and you have to be ready to race 24 hours a day. So I support the OP in their endeavor.... Simply because it moves away from Alienating the largest part of the server.

[Shinko]

dont know about you guys, but i raid mobs on p99 with less people then we had on live

[quido]

So Shinko, did you get your warrior back or what? Who done it?

[finalgrunt]

4th and 5th Every Guild Race and if a guild thats not tmo get on the racemob with out pooping or somthing gets put on rotation list? somthing like this i don't know yet i will have to come up with somthing that fair for all partys if guilds would really want somthing. but this is just an idea, and such so

also stop calling tmo and fe zerg guilds im sorry the a team has like 6 players but the core of each guild tmo and fe is really small so

ie if vel dropped right now FE would not be getting lots of targets

Thanks a lot for putting consideration into this. The idea behind a window (1 week every X weeks) is that it would much simpler for the top guilds to monitor / organize. But I may be wrong. I know it's asking for a favor, and I wouldn't want it to turn into a hassle (and thus failing).

But if you believe you got something which wouldn't be much trouble for your guild and TMO, and would allow smaller guilds to compete on a more classic grounds, then sure.

And please everybody, this thread is not one to judge the top guilds involvement/strategies , or how the raid scene is or should be. I've read and participated enough in such threads to know it will not change. Top guilds have brought Everquest to a new level for many of us and we have to accept it.

Let's wait for TMO/FE proposals and discuss the details then.

Cheers!

[Aata]

This thread is getting derailed by Sirken's comments... no guilds need to merge.

Is TMO on board with this? CHECK (according to Tiggles)
Is FE on board with this? CHECK (I think.. according to Shinko)

We still need:

Confirm 1 week every 3 months;
Confirm the raid targets (outdoor dragons + Draco/Maestro?) or all raid targets?
Confirm timer to FTE (24 hours?);
anything else?;

Smaller guilds on board?
A-Team? CHECK (according to Lorean)
Divinity? CHECK (according to OP)
Taken?
Full Circle?
Flawless?
any other I missed?
Let's finish this checklist and see where we're at.

Count us in!

[Clark]

All this sort of talk came up during the days of IB vs DA (2010-2011) and TR vs TMO (2011-2012) and never amounted to anything. I'm not sure why people are putting so much thought and angst into this. It hasn't happened in this long, maybe some things aren't mean to be. Thats just my two cents though in a perfect world everyone would get the best drops, but this is Everquest.

[Halfelfbard]

Gotta admit some of the best time i can remember about live EQ (xev) was pick up raids for naggy/vox 48-52 people jus goin at it...then some of the bigger guilds would show up and help buff and kinda direct what todo.

I mean if there was a start to this somewhere, i guess it would have to that...or maybe Gore its a hard dragon and if u wanna feel accomplished in a kill that'd b the one to down.

[Clark]

That's a much hairier idea than you probably realize. There are encounters right now, most notably Inny, CT and Trak, where one guild's wipe can often kill the other guild, at which point it turns into a real shit show. Then somebody messes up their CR (or maybe it's on purpose) and everybody gets trained again, etc. More guilds present, especially with less experience, lower levels and less encounter understanding would only make it worse. Then on top of that, FE and TMO (plus whoever else might theoretically be down to try) have the mess of trying to FTE versus eachother immediately as the smaller guild wipes. It would be a real mess. Now if TMO and FE were to /random to see who goes first instead of an all-out FTE lottery, that would solve this and some other problems (especially the problem of a guild with insufficient force getting a kill, which goes both ways).




New guilds have come up to compete in the last couple years with varying success. When I joined in 2010, DA and IB were the established top dogs. Between long-term alliances, short-term cooperation and competing on their own, VD certainly managed to win things in its time. TMO began its attempt to raid seriously when Kunark came out, and was a challenger at the time to IB/TR and DA/Asc/Fusion. TMO ultimately merged with DA/Asc/Fusion. BDA did, for a brief while, manage to put up some competition for TMO. And once upon a time Divinity got god and dragon kills as well (or so I'm told). You have to be willing to try and willing to fail a bunch before you start winning on a competitive server.

Also, TMO, IB and VD at one time had a three-way raiding agreement which set Trak/VP rotations and established rules beyond the server rules, and later IB/TMO had a 2-guild agreement. It could happen again. The #1 thing that I think prevents rotation is people across any guilds involved getting all butthurt or uppity about crap.



No, you wouldn't. There would be terms set. Most likely, one guild would absorb another and exercise primary authority. That's how that kind of thing usually works.


Also, the smaller guilds can work together to apply pressure. Get some spawn windows figured out, and when Trak is late in window know what else is in window and go for it, because FE and TMO are going to be focused on Trak. Heck, let's insert some code that makes world dragons likely to spawn any time Trak is alive. That'll give small guilds a head start.

Also, I think Sirken completely understands what's going on on the server. It's people crowded in a bubble working within a fairly arbitrary but necessary rules framework according to a pattern that has developed over years. He's just being realistic. It isn't Sirken job to dictate how we can make the raid scene equitable; he just works on the GM side within the same framework as the players, dealing with the limitations and enforcing the rules of the server.

+1

[Tecmos Deception]

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

Mindless zerging for the sake of pixels is "thinking outside the box"?

Wow.

I'm sad now :(

[finalgrunt]

All this sort of talk came up during the days of IB vs DA (2010-2011) and TR vs TMO (2011-2012) and never amounted to anything. I'm not sure why people are putting so much thought and angst into this. It hasn't happened in this long, maybe some things aren't mean to be. Thats just my two cents though in a perfect world everyone would get the best drops, but this is Everquest.

This is a different approach though. And FE is not IB. There have been talks about rotations etc. which are a much bigger step that what I'm proposing. Grown adults should be able to let go a small portion of non priority targets for the benefit of the rest of the server, I'm convinced we can manage something.

You can't look back and deduce what would come out of this. Because this is a different period.

TMO has shown in the past they could go with this (endangered spieces). Also Kunark has been out for 2 years now. I'm now waiting for their feedback on this. And let's keep a positive mind on this, maybe this time ... ;)

[Tarigin]

This thread is getting derailed by Sirken's comments... no guilds need to merge.

Is TMO on board with this? CHECK (according to Tiggles)
Is FE on board with this? CHECK (I think.. according to Shinko)

We still need:

Confirm 1 week every 3 months;
Confirm the raid targets (outdoor dragons + Draco/Maestro?) or all raid targets?
Confirm timer to FTE (24 hours?);
anything else?;

Smaller guilds on board?
A-Team? CHECK (according to Lorean)
Divinity? CHECK (according to OP)
Taken?
Full Circle?
Flawless?
any other I missed?

Let's finish this checklist and see where we're at.

Europa ;)

[xarzzardorn]

This entire thread is an embarrassment

[Kagatob]

This entire server is an embarrassment

[Servellious]

I remember when BDA left mobs up and how grateful those guilds were and how support was given to BDA in the fight against Tmo. Wait nvm nothing happened except bad guilds showed up to collect loot and do nothing else. Bad idea then even worse now that it has already shown to do nothing. Tmo had plenty of chances to do this and just want to stall Fe's momentum. Give me a break

[Chedduh]

bad player calling guilds bad, hilarious

[AenarieFenninRo]

I'll start with this: i'm not against the idea, and that I hope something can be worked out to make everyone happy...

But I gotta ask, and not in a flame way but in all seriousness:

Does this feel to anyone else like kids asking for a participant trophy because they didn't take 1st / 2nd place in some sporting event?

The world has gone soft in so many ways that we want to make sure everyone is happy all the time at everyone else's expense, and it really does bother me. Growing up, if we didn't win, we didn't get a trophy, plain and simple. Now days, everyone gets a trophy for the most mundane crap and it's ridiculous, all in an effort to make everyone happy.

It seems in its way, that even when I was a kid, we had to do something instead of just requesting that no other team was on the field so they could kick the ball toward the goal in the hopes of it going in.

I'm not saying that something cant or shouldn't be worked out, but it seems to me that these smaller / minor / family oriented type of guilds need to put in SOME kind of effort rather than just asking for everyone else to stop killing mobs so that they have a chance to do so. This is in essence what I am seeing being requested here.

It has been stated MANY times by top guilds on the server... TMO / IB / VD / FE / whomever... pick an abbreviation... that if you put in some time and track the mobs, and let the upper tier guilds know you would like a shot at mob X, that those guilds have offered to be accommodating. I have yet to see any of these smaller guilds do this though. Keeping in mind that this may not be the case with certain targets such as Trakanon or VP or something, but there are other targets out there like Talendor, Serverilous, Nobles, Inny, etc etc

I am all for everyone having fun, and everyone getting a chance to do something they might not normally get the chance to do, but the proposals I have seen thus far are simply asking the other teams to step off the field of play so that someone else can have a go at it.

Disclaimer: These are personal views, and not that of any guild, so please don't try to make the associations between my own views and that of the guild I belong to.

[arsenalpow]

Please elaborate on how a smaller guild could pull a target with enough effort. It's a horseshit argument.

Full Circle was the last small guild to really try and make a push. They sat at Inny for days only for TMO to show up in the last hours with a 2 group force to try and snake a kill for a target that they didn't even give a shit about.

If you want targets on this server the template has been presented by TMO (and every other guild before TMO) and then duplicated by FE. You need to have a large roster in order to pull 30-40 players at any point of the day and need to be camped out right in front of the designated target fully buffed. You need to track for over 96 hours of real time if necessary, you need to be able to fend of FTE snipes, trains, leapfrogging, and rules lawyering. You'll have to suffer through spies, moles, and any number of methods of out of game warfare. After you've done all that you'll still need to win at forumquest to make sure the propaganda machine doesn't stunt the growth or reputation of your blossoming guild.

Them once you've weathered that storm the next step is VP where the competition can just blatantly train you.

The raid scene is a joke and thinking that TMO is suddenly feeling generous now that FE is gaining momentum is just another form of gamesmanship. No one is giving shit up, if you want a target get ready to get dirty.

[Ravager]

Does this feel to anyone else like kids asking for a participant trophy because they didn't take 1st / 2nd place in some sporting event?



A closer analogy is the selfish jerk who takes all the free samples at the grocery store and then justifies it by saying everyone else wasn't fast enough.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Please elaborate on how a smaller guild could pull a target with enough effort. It's a horseshit argument.

Full Circle was the last small guild to really try and make a push. They sat at Inny for days only for TMO to show up in the last hours with a 2 group force to try and snake a kill for a target that they didn't even give a shit about.


I personally did not attend that event, even though I was online, and in fact, I asked other guild mates to boycott going up there. I did feel that they had put in the effort and time, and that stepping on toes as it were was against exactly what I am speaking about above. Lets not pretend however, that TMO was the only guild that went up there... I believe BDA was there as well? (Again, i'm not sure who all was, as I wasn't there) even to later have people claim that "we were going up to support FC" which was a BS claim from people not in FC to try getting around being douchebags.

[AenarieFenninRo]

A closer analogy is the selfish jerk who takes all the free samples at the grocery store and then justifies it by saying everyone else wasn't fast enough.

I don't agree... unless you say that the selfish jerk was sitting waiting for the free sample person for days on end... and when they finally showed up the samples would only go to the first person who arrived.

[arsenalpow]

I personally did not attend that event, even though I was online, and in fact, I asked other guild mates to boycott going up there. I did feel that they had put in the effort and time, and that stepping on toes as it were was against exactly what I am speaking about above. Lets not pretend however, that TMO was the only guild that went up there... I believe BDA was there as well? (Again, i'm not sure who all was, as I wasn't there) even to later have people claim that "we were going up to support FC" which was a BS claim from people not in FC to try getting around being douchebags.

1) I'm so fucking sick of this from the mass invite guilds "well my guildmates did that and I don't agree with it, you can't really compare me with soandso" - that's bullshit. You condone the behavior by continuing to be guilded with them. I'm part of a guild that polices our members. If someone guilded with me does something that doesn't align with how we do things then they get to find a new guild. It's called having standards.

2) I personally brought up a BDA force to get FTE on behalf of Full Circle after we heard that TMO had showed up. We had been avoiding Hate for days because we knew Full Circle was in it for the long haul.

[AenarieFenninRo]

1) I'm so fucking sick of this from the mass invite guilds "well my guildmates did that and I don't agree with it, you can't really compare me with soandso" - that's bullshit. You condone the behavior by continuing to be guilded with them. I'm part of a guild that polices our members. If someone guilded with me does something that doesn't align with how we do things then they get to find a new guild. It's called having standards.

2) I personally brought up a BDA force to get FTE on behalf of Full Circle after we heard that TMO had showed up. We had been avoiding Hate for days because we knew Full Circle was in it for the long haul.

This is extending into R&F material, so i'm going to say let it go from this thread in the interest of the OP. My post, was that of my own opinion, not related to my guild. Please dont lump other's opinions in with mine, nor mine in with others. You can still remain somewhat autonomous within a guild.

[Servellious]

I personally did not attend that event, even though I was online, and in fact, I asked other guild mates to boycott going up there. I did feel that they had put in the effort and time, and that stepping on toes as it were was against exactly what I am speaking about above. Lets not pretend however, that TMO was the only guild that went up there... I believe BDA was there as well? (Again, i'm not sure who all was, as I wasn't there) even to later have people claim that "we were going up to support FC" which was a BS claim from people not in FC to try getting around being douchebags.

No we really did port up just to help

[Ravager]

I don't agree... unless you say that the selfish jerk was sitting waiting for the free sample person for days on end... and when they finally showed up the samples would only go to the first person who arrived.

Pretty much. It doesn't look like this game is going anywhere. There will be dragons next week and dragons the week after that. To say a rotation won't work is just wrong. If your arguement is for competition, guess what, they have a server for that.

[Tecmos Deception]

if you put in some time and track the mobs, and let the upper tier guilds know you would like a shot at mob X, that those guilds have offered to be accommodating. I have yet to see any of these smaller guilds do this though

I believe that the smaller guilds don't track and batphone and such because they don't believe it is worth it. The people who are willing to "put in some time" in order for a chance at a dragon/god kill have already joined TMO or FE.

The people who are left generally refuse to be miserable for days in order for 15 minutes of fun. They find other ways to have as much fun as they can on the server while hoping that eventually the mechanics that promote zerg guilds, tracking, and batphoning get changed.

[arsenalpow]

This is extending into R&F material, so i'm going to say let it go from this thread in the interest of the OP. My post, was that of my own opinion, not related to my guild. Please dont lump other's opinions in with mine, nor mine in with others. You can still remain somewhat autonomous within a guild.

Again I disagree vehemently but I'll drop it. Also, Tiggles does not speak for TMO. Zeelot is the only person that can approve TMO cooperation so this is all null and void until he (or his guaranteed representative) weighs in. I speak for BDA, and we'd like to see something better for the raid scene, but personally I feel that nothing will come from this. Just look at my post history, I've proposed infi ideas to fix things but no one wants to play ball.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Pretty much. It doesn't look like this game is going anywhere. There will be dragons next week and dragons the week after that. To say a rotation won't work is just wrong. If your arguement is for competition, guess what, they have a server for that.

My argument is simply for some level of effort to be put in, rather than sitting back and requesting that nobody else "camp" the free samples guy so that they can get a chance to speak to him first whenever someone "happens" to notice that he was around.

[finalgrunt]

I'll start with this: i'm not against the idea, and that I hope something can be worked out to make everyone happy...

But I gotta ask, and not in a flame way but in all seriousness:

Does this feel to anyone else like kids asking for a participant trophy because they didn't take 1st / 2nd place in some sporting event?

The world has gone soft in so many ways that we want to make sure everyone is happy all the time at everyone else's expense, and it really does bother me. Growing up, if we didn't win, we didn't get a trophy, plain and simple. Now days, everyone gets a trophy for the most mundane crap and it's ridiculous, all in an effort to make everyone happy.

It seems in its way, that even when I was a kid, we had to do something instead of just requesting that no other team was on the field so they could kick the ball toward the goal in the hopes of it going in.

I'm not saying that something cant or shouldn't be worked out, but it seems to me that these smaller / minor / family oriented type of guilds need to put in SOME kind of effort rather than just asking for everyone else to stop killing mobs so that they have a chance to do so. This is in essence what I am seeing being requested here.

It has been stated MANY times by top guilds on the server... TMO / IB / VD / FE / whomever... pick an abbreviation... that if you put in some time and track the mobs, and let the upper tier guilds know you would like a shot at mob X, that those guilds have offered to be accommodating. I have yet to see any of these smaller guilds do this though. Keeping in mind that this may not be the case with certain targets such as Trakanon or VP or something, but there are other targets out there like Talendor, Serverilous, Nobles, Inny, etc etc

I am all for everyone having fun, and everyone getting a chance to do something they might not normally get the chance to do, but the proposals I have seen thus far are simply asking the other teams to step off the field of play so that someone else can have a go at it.

Disclaimer: These are personal views, and not that of any guild, so please don't try to make the associations between my own views and that of the guild I belong to.

If we follow this logic, there shouldn't be seperate leagues. There shouldn't be distinction between men and women. "Sorry girlz, but you need to step up your game if you want to win that medal!".

It's a request to have a regular time window in which 2nd league guilds would be able to compete among each other. By investing so much time and effort, top guilds would still get to enjoy an overwhelming part of the content (we're talking non priority targets here ...). Which happens to be from a 13 y.o game on an emu server and now, we're pretty much all adults if I'm not mistaken. I don't see why we couldn't agree on something that trivial really.

Lastly, at the moment, no details were discussed on how would small guilds manage that window. So in my opinion, there would still be competition involved.

In conclusion, if that's what you want to hear, yes, players in smaller guilds don't come near the two current top guilds involvement. However, I didn't really see anybody claiming otherwise. And if you're "all for everyone having fun, and everyone getting a chance to do something they might not normally get the chance to do", then you should support this request too :)

[AenarieFenninRo]

The people who are willing to "put in some time" in order for a chance at a dragon/god kill have already joined TMO or FE.

The people who are left generally refuse to be miserable for days in order for 15 minutes of fun.

This is why this argument generally never goes anywhere. The people in TMO / FE / IB / BDA / etc have been WILLING to be miserable for days for those 15 minutes of fun.

Is it right? Is it wrong? Those are the decisions that those guilds have made for their enjoyment, 15 minutes at a time.

To now say, "step aside and let others not have to do the same thing for their 15 minutes of fun" is why this argument generally goes no where.

I'm not saying that something cant be worked out, just pointing out why this argument at least in my opinion generally fails.

[Ravager]

My argument is simply for some level of effort to be put in, rather than sitting back and requesting that nobody else "camp" the free samples guy so that they can get a chance to speak to him first whenever someone "happens" to notice that he was around.

What's wrong with this? The "some level of effort" you ask is 96+ hours of tracking and having mains parked and buffed on spawn points 5, 6, or 7 days a week depending on how windows overlap, waking up at 3am to your computer already on at the log in or character select screen. This is pretty unreasonable and it boggles my mind how TMO and FE aren't disgusted with themselves for doing it to themselves.

[AenarieFenninRo]

If we follow this logic, there shouldn't be seperate leagues. There shouldn't be distinction between men and women. "Sorry girlz, but you need to step up your game if you want to win that medal!".

It's a request to have a regular time window in which 2nd league guilds would be able to compete among each other. By investing so much time and effort, top guilds would still get to enjoy an overwhelming part of the content (we're talking non priority targets here ...). Which happens to be from a 13 y.o game on an emu server and now, we're pretty much all adults if I'm not mistaken. I don't see why we couldn't agree on something that trivial really.

Lastly, at the moment, no details were discussed on how would small guilds manage that window. So in my opinion, there would still be competition involved.

In conclusion, if that's what you want to hear, yes, players in smaller guilds don't come near the two current top guilds involvement. However, I didn't really see anybody claiming otherwise. And if you're "all for everyone having fun, and everyone getting a chance to do something they might not normally get the chance to do", then you should support this request too :)

In this scenario, your "separate leagues" would be another server. There aren't other servers like this one however, so we're all in the same league regardless of race / class / gender / any other differences.

Given that we're all in the same league, then the "rules" should be equal across the board for what determines who gets to do what. At the current, this means tracking targets, and racing for the spawns.

You're now asking to change the "rules" of the game, so that other people get a chance... an admirable and lofty goal to be sure, and even one that can possibly be met through some efforts on everyone's part.

Again, i'm not saying that something cant be worked out, or shouldn't be worked out, i'm simply stating (based on your analogy) you need to start within in the current "ruleset" before you go changing the rules. This would mean doing some tracking of targets at the very least.

Going back to my original statement, let the other players know your intent, that you're tracking target X, and they may be more accommodating than you think.

[AenarieFenninRo]

What's wrong with this? The "some level of effort" you ask is 96+ hours of tracking and having mains parked and buffed on spawn points 5, 6, or 7 days a week depending on how windows overlap, waking up at 3am to your computer already on at the log in or character select screen. This is pretty unreasonable and it boggles my mind how TMO and FE aren't disgusted with themselves for doing it to themselves.

That is not true, please don't put your assumption as to what my words state.

Some level of effort could be - tracking a mob from noon-9pm.. and if it spawns outside that window, you dont expect to engage it

Some level of effort could be - poopsocking (I hope nobody takes this seriously)

There are many things that could be defined as "some level of effort" not just 96+ hours of tracking and waking up at 4am to kill the mob. Thats the current top guilds' level of effort, i'm not trying to turn the other guilds into us.

The key word being SOME

right now, the level of effort being put in is "please dont raid during week x" Given that the top guilds have established themselves as "RAIDING" guilds, asking them to go against their "reason for being" is not a very persuasive argument.

[Ravager]

That is not true, please don't put your assumption as to what my words state.

Some level of effort could be - tracking a mob from noon-9pm.. and if it spawns outside that window, you dont expect to engage it

Some level of effort could be - poopsocking (I hope nobody takes this seriously)

There are many things that could be defined as "some level of effort" not just 96+ hours of tracking and waking up at 4am to kill the mob. Thats the current top guilds' level of effort, i'm not trying to turn the other guilds into us.

The key word being SOME

right now, the level of effort being put in is "please dont raid during week x" Given that the top guilds have established themselves as "RAIDING" guilds, asking them to go against their "reason for being" is not a very persuasive argument.

It's not unreasonable to ask for a week of mobs. It is unreasonable to expect casual guilds to track for any amount of time and think they still have a chance at the mob. I don't care if it's 3 hours or 30, most reasonable people don't have their laptops tethered with them at all times to be able to answer a batphone at a moment's notice. Even if a casual guild were to "get lucky" and happen to be tracking the mob when it pops, they're not likely to get it and as has been seen recently, they're not likely to get it even when it spawns right in front of them while they have a raid force present.

Any level of effort short of doing exactly what TMO and FE does is not likely to get you any mobs.

[AenarieFenninRo]

It's not unreasonable to ask for a week of mobs.

with zero effort, I dont agree,

Thats ok... this is a discussion, we dont have to agree on everything.

[finalgrunt]

That is not true, please don't put your assumption as to what my words state.

Some level of effort could be - tracking a mob from noon-9pm.. and if it spawns outside that window, you dont expect to engage it

Some level of effort could be - poopsocking (I hope nobody takes this seriously)

There are many things that could be defined as "some level of effort" not just 96+ hours of tracking and waking up at 4am to kill the mob. Thats the current top guilds' level of effort, i'm not trying to turn the other guilds into us.

The key word being SOME

right now, the level of effort being put in is "please dont raid during week x" Given that the top guilds have established themselves as "RAIDING" guilds, asking them to go against their "reason for being" is not a very persuasive argument.

Smaller guilds have tried in the past to track, and mobilize. And even poopsock. More than once. Problem is, it's been proven to be ineffective.

During the said free week, smaller guilds would still have to track, mobilize and such. Thing is, the smaller guilds will face competition which they can actually beat if they try. Huge difference. It will not be free, but affordable.

[KotBK]

Aenarie please read what you type, you tell others not to base assumptions about you or your guild then that is all you yourself are making of others.

Who are you to say all these other guilds aren't or haven't been making "some kind of effort"? You have no idea as you aren't even fully aware of what your own guild does 24/7 or what each member believes. Please just be quiet or bring something intellectual to the table other than blatant hypocrisy.

[maverixdamighty]

Aenarie please read what you type, you tell others not to base assumptions about you or your guild then that is all you yourself are making of others.

Who are you to say all these other guilds aren't or haven't been making "some kind of effort"? You have no idea as you aren't even fully aware of what your own guild does 24/7 or what each member believes. Please just be quiet or bring something intellectual to the table other than blatant hypocrisy.

I agree with some of what Aenarie is saying. There isn't much effort being made by these guilds to get targets. Yes I understand they don't want to have to do any tracking, organizing, etc because they think that it won't pay off, but honestly like others have said if you don't put in some effort no one is going to take you seriously. The only guild outside of tmo/fe that I've seen tracking lately was divinity a few sevs ago. I'm sure others have done it, but that's just the only guild i've seen doing anything.

If you want some of these mobs put forth some effort during your guilds best raiding hours and I think this would be received much better. That still covers most of the arguments being made about not wanting to batphone at 3 am, poopsock, camp chars etc.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Aenarie please read what you type, you tell others not to base assumptions about you or your guild then that is all you yourself are making of others.

Who are you to say all these other guilds aren't or haven't been making "some kind of effort"? You have no idea as you aren't even fully aware of what your own guild does 24/7 or what each member believes. Please just be quiet or bring something intellectual to the table other than blatant hypocrisy.

You're absolutely correct, I dont know what these other guilds have been doing, but they have not told me either. I have made no assumptions as to what others have done, I am simply stating information from what has been posted here and my own thoughts about it. I can only speak from what I know. My argument was never about what they've done before, it is about what is being asked now, and I am expressing MY thoughts on the subject.

I am also not a spokesperson for TMO, I am a spokesperson for myself. If nobody has told me the effort they have made, I have no way to say that they have or have not made some level of effort. If you're stating that others have made efforts recently, then please tell me what they are because I dont see them listed here. I've never tried to state otherwise. I am simply stating that I personally would like to see some kind of effort.

I also do not know what people in my guild do 24/7, nor can I control their personal choices they make in game. I do however have a voice, and can express my thoughts and concerns to the leadership of TMO, which does respect my voice and opinions, so my opinions can influence the direction that my guild takes.

[arsenalpow]

I agree with some of what Aenarie is saying. There isn't much effort being made by these guilds to get targets. Yes I understand they don't want to have to do any tracking, organizing, etc because they think that it won't pay off, but honestly like others have said if you don't put in some effort no one is going to take you seriously. The only guild outside of tmo/fe that I've seen tracking lately was divinity a few sevs ago. I'm sure others have done it, but that's just the only guild i've seen doing anything.

If you want some of these mobs put forth some effort during your guilds best raiding hours and I think this would be received much better. That still covers most of the arguments being made about not wanting to batphone at 3 am, poopsock, camp chars etc.

It just gets escalated. Smaller guilds could track and campout for Sev and then from there it turns into people standing on the spawn point waiting to pull, then it turns into raids sitting on the spawn point. The level of stupidity doesn't stop, and that's assuming you can even catch a spawn in your guild's window of opportunity and get the pull before TMO or FE and get your raid force online to kill the pull in under 2 minutes. Again, it's all preposterous.

[maverixdamighty]

It just gets escalated. Smaller guilds could track and campout for Sev and then from there it turns into people standing on the spawn point waiting to pull, then it turns into raids sitting on the spawn point. The level of stupidity doesn't stop, and that's assuming you can even catch a spawn in your guild's window of opportunity and get the pull before TMO or FE and get your raid force online to kill the pull in under 2 minutes. Again, it's all preposterous.

the only mob that has had anything close to your assumption happen since the patch was inny, and even that was small scale with like single groups sitting up in hate still pulling exp/armor mobs.

again even if you only did some tracking during your guild's prime hours it is showing some effort which isn't being shown now by most of the guilds asking for this opportunity.

[AenarieFenninRo]

It just gets escalated. Smaller guilds could track and campout for Sev and then from there it turns into people standing on the spawn point waiting to pull, then it turns into raids sitting on the spawn point. The level of stupidity doesn't stop, and that's assuming you can even catch a spawn in your guild's window of opportunity and get the pull before TMO or FE and get your raid force online to kill the pull in under 2 minutes. Again, it's all preposterous.

Did you tell anyone in TMO for FE that you were doing that?

How do we know you're camping out for the mob and are intent on engaging it?

My basic state has been, let others know, this still holds true.

For as much as we bitch about each other in R&F, I am sure that if someone came to FE or TMO and said "hey, we would like to try Sev this week if it spawns between 5pm and 9pm" TMO and FE could have a civil discussion with each other about it.

[arsenalpow]

Honestly fuck both of you. I've spent countless hours tracking for mobs, updating windows, camping out characters, rallying the troops, and boosting morale when it's all for naught. I've watched multiple guilds shatter under the weight of what equates to chemical warfare between the infiltration of guild forums, the posting of RL pictures, and hemorhagging members to the zergs. Raiding on this server is fundamentally broken. Both of you are basically saying "try harder" when everyone knows that means be more like TMO and FE. This isn't a job for most people, it's a fucking 13 old emulated Everquest server.

The barrier of entry to raiding is staggering and even when you do eventually reach the goal of VP there's always the boogeyman of training to deal with. Here's a PSA to anyone new on this server that wants to attain raid loot, join TMO or FE. Be prepared to log out your character at a designated target for days at a time and have the availability to log in 24 hours a day to earfuck said target with 40 other guildmates while dodging the trains and shenanigans of the rival guild. That's what raiding on P99 is. It's not competition, it's not fun, it's attrition. Get used to it or find a new game.

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

Rotations wouldn't be a terribly difficult thing to accommodate. GMs form a rotation list and the server abides by the list. Then, there are very aggressive and severe punishments if there's any negative departure from the list (any guild other than the one that's currently up for MOB A's current spawn interfering). I'd imagine mandatory minimum month long account bans (not just raid "bans") for anyone with the offending guild that is present and three month account bans for the actively involved offending players would be alright.

This gives everyone a shot at reliving what they did on live and provides a rather stiff penalty for the shit heads who only strive to grief everyone who would dare dream of looting their pixels. Then again, FTE shouts are an issue being ignored and we were told there are random respawns coming when we actually got mobs that don't agro for 3 seconds and extended spawn windows. Life is so crazy here on opposite server.

[maverixdamighty]

Honestly fuck both of you. I've spent countless hours tracking for mobs, updating windows, camping out characters, rallying the troops, and boosting morale when it's all for naught. I've watched multiple guilds shatter under the weight of what equates to chemical warfare between the infiltration of guild forums, the posting of RL pictures, and hemorhagging members to the zergs. Raiding on this server is fundamentally broken. Both of you are basically saying "try harder" when everyone knows that means be more like TMO and FE. This isn't a job for most people, it's a fucking 13 old emulated Everquest server.

The barrier of entry to raiding is staggering and even when you do eventually reach the goal of VP there's always the boogeyman of training to deal with. Here's a PSA to anyone new on this server that wants to attain raid loot, join TMO or FE. Be prepared to log out your character at a designated target for days at a time and have the availability to log in 24 hours a day to earfuck said target with 40 other guildmates while dodging the trains and shenanigans of the rival guild. That's what raiding on P99 is. It's not competition, it's not fun, it's attrition. Get used to it or find a new game.

This isn't F&R pal. Keep it constructive or start a new thread. I'm not posting my opinion of you anywhere in here because i'm keeping in mind that this could be for the better of the server.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Rotations wouldn't be a terribly difficult thing to accommodate. GMs form a rotation list and the server abides by the list. Then, there are very aggressive and severe punishments if there's any negative departure from the list (any guild other than the one that's currently up for MOB A's current spawn interfering). I'd imagine mandatory minimum month long account bans (not just raid "bans") for anyone with the offending guild that is present and three month account bans for the actively involved offending players would be alright.

This gives everyone a shot at reliving what they did on live and provides a rather stiff penalty for the shit heads who only strive to grief everyone who would dare dream of looting their pixels. Then again, FTE shouts are an issue being ignored and we were told there are random respawns coming when we actually got mobs that don't agro for 3 seconds and extended spawn windows. Life is so crazy here on opposite server.

GMs have publicly stated they would not enforce rotations, and with rotations you loose ALL competition... its all just who's turn it is, and some guilds cant necessarily handle all of the mobs.. Gore is a good example.

Or rotation method 1: Guild A's turn in rotation Sunday - Saturday, they fail to kill mob Sunday - Friday, finally succeed on Saturday... mob now has 4 days before its window opens again... Guild B's rotation starts. Sunday - Saturday ... mob doesn't spawn at all during their rotation cycle, spawns Monday for Guild C's rotation window.

Rotation method 2: Guild A kills 4 targets ... so now Guild B is up on those... Guild B kills 2, so now Guild C is up... then the 5th target for Guild A spawns, etc etc. All you have now is to keep track of each mob, and who's turn it is... and it can become a giant cluster.

[arsenalpow]

This isn't F&R pal. Keep it constructive or start a new thread. I'm not posting my opinion of you anywhere in here because i'm keeping in mind that this could be for the better of the server.

Except you've only stated that you don't believe the smaller guilds "do enough" to warrant a share of raid targets, this is because as stated before the barrier of entry is staggering. For you or TMO enough would be exactly how you currently function as a raid guild. For BDA enough for is hunting in planes when raid targets are in window and periodically pushing for targets when it suits us and avoiding Trak like the plague because its by far the most toxic target to push for. For other guilds like Div, Taken, or Full Circle it's even less than that, they have a relatively regular raid schedule and suits them.

The mindset from TMO has always been put up or shut up, I absolutely know that FE is ok with a server rotation, TMO is and has always been the holdup to any rotation since IB departed.

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

I know what the GMs have said. It won't stop anyone from suggesting it as an improvement upon the current state of affairs. Stick a time limit on a mob, like we had on Ragefire, and move forward. It won't be any bigger of a cluster than it currently is.

[finalgrunt]

Rotations wouldn't be a terribly difficult thing to accommodate. GMs form a rotation list and the server abides by the list. Then, there are very aggressive and severe punishments if there's any negative departure from the list (any guild other than the one that's currently up for MOB A's current spawn interfering). I'd imagine mandatory minimum month long account bans (not just raid "bans") for anyone with the offending guild that is present and three month account bans for the actively involved offending players would be alright.

This gives everyone a shot at reliving what they did on live and provides a rather stiff penalty for the shit heads who only strive to grief everyone who would dare dream of looting their pixels. Then again, FTE shouts are an issue being ignored and we were told there are random respawns coming when we actually got mobs that don't agro for 3 seconds and extended spawn windows. Life is so crazy here on opposite server.

GMs have clearly stated they will not enforce any kind of rotation. And this is not the scope of the request.

And please everybody try to keep this thread civil.

To sum up: :p

http://oi47.tinypic.com/2na8cr9.jpg

Obviously, most smaller guilds have stated here they would be interested.

I'm in touch with FE atm, who gave a rather encouraging answer. But no answer yet from TMO. Hoping to hear from them still.

[maverixdamighty]

Except you've only stated that you don't believe the smaller guilds "do enough" to warrant a share of raid targets, this is because as stated before the barrier of entry is staggering. For you or TMO enough would be exactly how you currently function as a raid guild. For BDA enough for is hunting in planes when raid targets are in window and periodically pushing for targets when it suits us and avoiding Trak like the plague because its by far the most toxic target to push for. For other guilds like Div, Taken, or Full Circle it's even less than that, they have a relatively regular raid schedule and suits them.

The mindset from TMO has always been put up or shut up, I absolutely know that FE is ok with a server rotation, TMO is and has always been the holdup to any rotation since IB departed.

Ya that's my opinion but i'm not the one making the decision for either guild. Some effort for me does not equal the way tmo/fe currently operate as you are assuming. I understand BDA used to be a raiding guild and you used to put in a ton of time doing tracking, organizing, etc but you also used to get kills out of it. I'm just saying from my point of view very little effort is being put in doing anything close to that anymore. I listed the one example i could think of with div doing sev, but problem with sev is we have like 6-7 warriors still needing green scales and sev has dropped them like 1 times in the last 6-7 kills. If we didn't need the scales he would not be a priority target IMO. Comparing TMO/FE in terms of listing out priority targets isn't doable because TMO has already farmed those mobs for a lengthy amount of time while FE is just now starting to see the affect of putting in the time/effort to compete for them.

[arsenalpow]

Proposed Rotation for any mob.

TMO, FE, BDA, Div, Taken, FC, FV

You have 15 minutes (or longer, can be tweaked depending on target) to engage from spawn or it falls to the next person in the rotation (or FTE, whatever)

This means that TMO and FE would still get the lionshare of targets since any mob that doesn't spawn during prime time would be most likely skipped by the smaller guilds but it still provides an opportunity for those same guilds to get an attempt in whereas before they'd just get steamrolled/leapfrogged.

[AenarieFenninRo]

I'm in touch with FE atm, who gave a rather encouraging answer. But no answer yet from TMO. Hoping to hear from them still.

I know that there are internal discussions regarding some things like this, but being that TMO primarily democratic in its views, we have to give our members a chance to discuss and be heard in their own thoughts.

Final officer decisions are made based on majority opinion rather than edict in about 95% of how we do things.

I suggest pinging Zeelot directly, either in game or with a PM on forums, or even coming over to our website and pinging him through there. I don't know that he's aware of this posting, or if a finalized consensus has been reached in guild yet though. If I see him online today, i'll make sure to bring it up to him.

[maverixdamighty]

Proposed Rotation for any mob.

TMO, FE, BDA, Div, Taken, FC, FV

You have 15 minutes (or longer, can be tweaked depending on target) to engage from spawn or it falls to the next person in the rotation (or FTE, whatever)

This means that TMO and FE would still get the lionshare of targets since any mob that doesn't spawn during prime time would be most likely skipped by the smaller guilds but it still provides an opportunity for those same guilds to get an attempt in whereas before they'd just get steamrolled/leapfrogged.

I still think the idea of leaving a window of time for non priority targets is the easiest solution. Leave it to the other guilds to figure out how they want to go about rotating/competing. For example, non priority targets such as tal/gore/fay/nag/vox/air etc for the week of april 1st or something like that if TMO/FE agreed both would stay away from those kills and it would be up to bda/div/taken/europa/a-team etc to work out who is going for what or all of them just go ffa on them.

Edit: not sure if that was a serious list or not but a-team, europa, and i'm sure there are more would want to be included. Talking about having a rotation list with close to 10 parties isn't going to make anyone's raiding experience any better IMO.

[finalgrunt]

I know that there are internal discussions regarding some things like this, but being that TMO primarily democratic in its views, we have to give our members a chance to discuss and be heard in their own thoughts.

Final officer decisions are made based on majority opinion rather than edict in about 95% of how we do things.

I suggest pinging Zeelot directly, either in game or with a PM on forums, or even coming over to our website and pinging him through there. I don't know that he's aware of this posting, or if a finalized consensus has been reached in guild yet though. If I see him online today, i'll make sure to bring it up to him.

Yep I've contacted them in PM. And indeed, there is no rush. Just giving an update of what's going on. I don't expect any decision coming in the next few hours. But I asked what were their respective opinions and concerns regarding such request to begin with, so as to give it the most chances of success. Most (if not all) cards are in their hands, I've made it clear this can and will be tuned to reach the best concensus.

[arsenalpow]

I still think the idea of leaving a window of time for non priority targets is the easiest solution. Leave it to the other guilds to figure out how they want to go about rotating/competing. For example, non priority targets such as tal/gore/fay/nag/vox/air etc for the week of april 1st or something like that if TMO/FE agreed both would stay away from those kills and it would be up to bda/div/taken/europa/a-team etc to work out who is going for what or all of them just go ffa on them.

If TMO and FE want to make a sincere effort they need to include some real targets in there. TMO needs to relinquish TrainCity and they both need to give up some CTs, Dojos, VS's, etc etc otherwise this comes off as disingenuous - here take these scraps. Any guild on this server can kill CT, the fact that you have to compete with trains and purposeful DT cycles makes it ridiculous, that's why other guilds stay away from it.

Again this is all moot until TMO plays ball.

[arsenalpow]

I wasn't trying to slight A-Team or Europa, I was only listing guilds that I've seen compete for high end raid targets.

[maverixdamighty]

If TMO and FE want to make a sincere effort they need to include some real targets in there. TMO needs to relinquish TrainCity and they both need to give up some CTs, Dojos, VS's, etc etc otherwise this comes off as disingenuous - here take these scraps. Any guild on this server can kill CT, the fact that you have to compete with trains and purposeful DT cycles makes it ridiculous, that's why other guilds stay away from it.

Again this is all moot until TMO plays ball.

so now you are mandating what has to be shared? FE has 2 CT kills under our belt and you think we should start rotating it now? Like I said I'm not the decision maker but I'd say no way. Again you are lumping TMO/FE in the same boat when one is a new guild and the other has been farming the mobs in question pretty much uncontested for a year. Think you need to scale back if you want any chance of coming to an agreement.

[pharmakos]

Any level of effort short of doing exactly what TMO and FE does is not likely to get you any mobs.

this. the Full Circle/Innoruuk situation sorta proves it.

[finalgrunt]

If TMO and FE want to make a sincere effort they need to include some real targets in there. TMO needs to relinquish TrainCity and they both need to give up some CTs, Dojos, VS's, etc etc otherwise this comes off as disingenuous - here take these scraps. Any guild on this server can kill CT, the fact that you have to compete with trains and purposeful DT cycles makes it ridiculous, that's why other guilds stay away from it.

Again this is all moot until TMO plays ball.

That's what I would like to see too. But I'd rather see this start with scraps than nothing in the end. Let's not forget it would be a favor coming from them, we're not really in position to make the calls around here. And once they see that this doesn't change anything for them as I expect to be (they get to do what they do the rest of the time, i.e pretty much all the time), they might add some other targets to the pool as a proof of good will (and even 2nd league can be entertaining to read about/watch).

At the moment, you should consider CT & VS as priority targets for the top guilds, and thus excluded from the current request as we speak.

[AenarieFenninRo]

If TMO and FE want to make a sincere effort they need to include some real targets in there. TMO needs to relinquish TrainCity. Again this is all moot until TMO plays ball.

I am taking your meaning of TrainCity to be VP... and being that we're talking about the guilds who have been getting no targets here, I don't know why this would happen unless they had sufficient raid force with VP keys.

I'm not saying no here, i'm simply stating that I dont see why this would be done. At the moment FE is making strides toward joining us in VP... trains and all... which will make that zone all the much more fun, but I would say for a minimum amount of success in VP you need at LEAST 20-25 raiders... NOT for just the targets, but anti-training etc. Can it be done with less, sure..

So by saying that TMO would have to give that up, you're effectively forcing a rotation on the top two guilds over the one zone that we would still be competing in, because... why?

[diplo]

i feel the pain to the non tmo/fe. end game is boring which is the reason i switched servers because 3am batphones were getting tiring.

i think if tmo/fe could give up the lesser targets like sev/gorenaire, it wouldn't really affect them that much bc those are the least priority in terms of lewt.

[maverixdamighty]

That's what I would like to see too. But I'd rather see this start with scraps than nothing in the end. Let's not forget it would be a favor coming from them, we're not really in position to make the calls around here. And once they see that this doesn't change anything for them as I expect to be (they get to do what they do the rest of the time, i.e pretty much all the time), they might add some other targets to the pool as a proof of good will (and even 2nd league can be entertaining to read about/watch).

This, plus people acting like TMO/FE are in the same position need a reality check. FE is farming these mobs for a reason to catch up ground and get our footing in VP to be on a similar level to TMO. Just when we start to get some of these mobs now it's expected to rotate the ones we really need and have only recently started getting the kills? Makes no sense. If I was TMO i'd agree to that in a heartbeat to slow down our progress.

[arsenalpow]

TMO doesn't even need 99% of the loot in VP considering they offer up rots to anyone not in FE. Again VP isn't filled with invincible targets, 32k isn't enough HP to keep 24 relatively well geared raiders from dropping them as proven when TMO wasn't training us during their vacation.

TMO/FE could fight over PD and rotate the rest and then it's much less of a headache for all parties involved. Also with VP loot flowing I'd suspect FE wouldn't contest the rest of kunark as hard, trickle down economics.

[finalgrunt]

This, plus people acting like TMO/FE are in the same position need a reality check. FE is farming these mobs for a reason to catch up ground and get our footing in VP to be on a similar level to TMO. Just when we start to get some of these mobs now it's expected to rotate the ones we really need and have only recently started getting the kills? Makes no sense. If I was TMO i'd agree to that in a heartbeat to slow down our progress.

Well, with current request, that would only remove 1 target every X (X being in the 7-10 range). That wouldn't really slow down your progress. But as I said earlier, we're only discussing a subset of targets atm, which clearly are not a priority for your guild. And CT is not included. And obviously VP & Trak neither.

Once things get into motion, I'm pretty sure TMO & FE members will understand what this is all about, and how it (doesn't) affect them. And hopefully, bigger targets will soon be added.

[maverixdamighty]

TMO doesn't even need 99% of the loot in VP considering they offer up rots to anyone not in FE. Again VP isn't filled with invincible targets, 32k isn't enough HP to keep 24 relatively well geared raiders from dropping them as proven when TMO wasn't training us during their vacation.

TMO/FE could fight over PD and rotate the rest and then it's much less of a headache for all parties involved. Also with VP loot flowing I'd suspect FE wouldn't contest the rest of kunark as hard, trickle down economics.

disagree. again FE is still a relatively new guild that still needs the loot from a majority of the kunark targets hence putting in the time/effort to get them. If we didn't need them I doubt you'd see us in farm mode like TMO. IMO again you are asking for way too much, which only hurts FE and helps TMO keep the gap in place.

[AenarieFenninRo]

TMO doesn't even need 99% of the loot in VP considering they offer up rots to anyone not in FE. Again VP isn't filled with invincible targets, 32k isn't enough HP to keep 24 relatively well geared raiders from dropping them as proven when TMO wasn't training us during their vacation.

TMO/FE could fight over PD and rotate the rest and then it's much less of a headache for all parties involved. Also with VP loot flowing I'd suspect FE wouldn't contest the rest of kunark as hard, trickle down economics.

Its great to shoot for the moon, but you dont often make it... read: interesting suggestion, but not likely to happen

As was brought up by Finalgrunt, start with smaller targets, work your way up. This is a reasonable approach, and has the potential to gain traction from both TMO and FE.

[maverixdamighty]

Well, with current request, that would only remove 1 target every X (X being in the 7-10 range). That wouldn't really slow down your progress. But as I said earlier, we're only discussing a subset of targets atm, which clearly are not a priority for your guild. And CT is not included. And obviously VP & Trak neither.

Once things get into motion, I'm pretty sure TMO & FE members will understand what's it's all about, and how it (doesn't) affect them. And hopefully, bigger targets will soon be added.

I've agreed with alot of what you have said already I was mainly pointing it out to chest who was saying the non-priority targets aren't enough. I think the non-priority list will get larger as we are able to get more kills and don't have the need anymore, but like i mentioned we have 2 ct kills, 1 green scale, still need pretty much everything from trak, wizards need vs for epics, druids need vs for epic, inny to some extent for various epic drops, etc so those targets I would consider priorities.

[47shadesofgay]

Loot that matters:

Epic pieces
CoF
BCG
Trak BPs
VS Legs
VP loot
RBB?

I would imagine FE still needs most the things on that list. Rest is just inconsequential or usable by one person.

[Splorf22]

I wasn't trying to slight A-Team or Europa, I was only listing guilds that I've seen compete for high end raid targets.

Well I doubt we could kill stuff like CT 24/7 anyway. Maybe an A-Team/Europa alliance hehehe :D If there ever was a rotation, there would have to be some well-defined rules for entry and exit. Actually I've been agreeing with most of what you said in this thread (well except the language). It's hilarious to watch 2/3 of the high-level server population say 'we hate the current raid scene, it's not how we want to play' and then have Sirken and various TMO/FE members say 'well why don't you play that way if you want to get some pixels?'

We're not a zerg bros!

OK Shinko you have been pretty nice to me in this thread so I will try to return the favor. I feel like both TMO and FE are zergs relative to the content, but not to the raid scene. In other words, both of you have far more players than you need to kill Trakanon given 2 hours, but not far more than you need to kill Trakanon given 3 minutes. And I think this is ultimately a big reason why TMO doesn't like rotations: with their amount of players, gear, and experience killing the mobs is trivial. It's only when they are under pressure that there is any amount of challenge.

This is why this argument generally never goes anywhere. The people in TMO / FE / IB / BDA / etc have been WILLING to be miserable for days for those 15 minutes of fun.

And this is the other big reason we will not see rotations on this server. Because there are a ton of hypercompetitive goal-oriented type-A players who treat this game as a job and don't think anyone else should be able to enter their little club without the requisite hazing. Look at Mavpal: he's saying 'i left divinity and joined FE and put in all my time batphoning/poopsocking/tracking so I could get my pixels, why should divinity get anything without doing something?' And I can sympathize with this argument, what baffles me is why people were willing to do it in the first place :P

TL;DR: I hope I am wrong, but I think this community is simply too competitive for rotations to stick, and variance throws a huge monkey wrench into the whole business. What needs to happen is simultaneous repops. But it seems that Sirken/Rogean are happy with the current environment, so I doubt anything will change.

That said, if you guys want to work out a rotation you have my vote.

[KotBK]

The biggest proponent is that there hasn't been and doesn't seem to be any change in regards to staff or players despite these types of threads taking place, it's all talk. The only manageable benefit from things like this was ragefire at one point in time. Many people who have dealt with the trash that is currently considered competition or effort fall into having been burnt out, not wanting to waste further time for fear of burning out or ruining the game for themselves, and then you have those who thrive on the broken scene at any cost.

The only way to truly make anything like this discussion work is to make the game mechanics true to classic with no variance and simulated respawns that is all there is to it. With no windows everyone's effort is on an even playing field where discussions can actually hold weight and a week of mobs guarantee's seeing certain mobs multiple times (cause it bars the chance of continued extension in window that may happen now). Even a shorter variance for those who have argued for different time zones works, but NO window guarantees an easier forum to make restrictions on time for guilds A, B, and C etc. to make their attempts while also holding people honest to when a mob actually spawned if a rotation type setting were to take place. However, if classic mechanics came back there would be no need to convey a petition for 1 week of mobs either.

At the end of the day acting like one person or group of people is superior and needs to be viewed as an authority figure for approval is completely ludicrous. All the people here who play the game are the same aka EverQuest fans/players. The respect and treatment of each other is truly what it all boils down to, which sadly with as much hate and disregard that has transpired it continues to prove that is what holds priority over any other possibilities.

Feel free to prove me wrong though i'd actually like to see respect, kindness, and the so called play nice policy actually be utilized. Mentioning sports in correlation to this game or more accurately this server is a slap in the face to sports because atleast in sporting events that is true competition and there is always a level of respect or sportsmanship involved no matter the personal views of the people involved. Sports have a set of rules that are constantly followed and dealt with plus the fact that the results are never lawyered they are simply accepted and learned from.

People think classic promotes poopsocking, what it promotes is true competition with less likelihood of training due to knowing when to clear and limits the plethora of GM disputes that can happen now. With that aspect the FTE standards are now all that's left.

TLDR - These discussions for the most part aren't worthwhile due to no changes ever resulting from any in the past, it's all just talk or wishful thinking (excluding ragefire). The only solution is a classic raid scene as well as improved conduct between players, both of which appear won't be happening as other detrimental precedents seem to be preferred. I would love to be proven wrong though.

[Tecmos Deception]

simultaneous repops

[arsenalpow]

During TMO's vacation we gave up eveything, I know Div got a brass knuckle off Dojo, other guilds got Trak BPs, plus critical VS, and Fay epic pieces. No one deserves to be blocked from content just because. I'm happy that FE's pressure might have coerced TMO into a rotation but don't fall into the same trap. Breaking the cycle of stupidity should be embraced once that reality is possible, it shouldn't fall back into "well FE needs to get their fill first then we can talk other targets"

Shinko has assured me that FE exists to break the stranglehold of TMO, which is why I don't harbor any ill will towards him splitting off. I guarantee if TMO agreed to a full server rotation FE would be the first one to sign the agreement.

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

Triggered spawns is another option. A guild can spawn CT an unlimited amount of times at any point if they want. A guild can farm Draco for BCGs. Another guild can farm PD until everyone has a crown and robe. At this point, lots of people just want to experience the raids/kills they missed out on live or want to relive the days of old when they were doing it on live.

There seems to be 3 schools of thought on this though. Some hate it because they want their pixels to be mostly exclusive (like members jackets) to their guild, some hate it because they are more "it's the journey, not the destination" kinda people, and others are "I want the destination. I'm not worried about the journey."

Water down my P99 experience? I don't care if my experience becomes watered down. I'd just have fun rotating tanks and groupings on CT to see what works, what doesn't, and what's the oddest raid composition such a raid mob can be done with....all without interference.

[finalgrunt]

Triggered spawns is another option. A guild can spawn CT an unlimited amount of times at any point if they want. A guild can farm Draco for BCGs. Another guild can farm PD until everyone has a crown and robe. At this point, lots of people just want to experience the raids/kills they missed out on live or want to relive the days of old when they were doing it on live.

There seems to be 3 schools of thought on this though. Some hate it because they want their pixels to be mostly exclusive (like members jackets) to their guild, some hate it because they are more "it's the journey, not the destination" kinda people, and others are "I want the destination. I'm not worried about the journey."

Water down my P99 experience? I don't care if my experience becomes watered down. I'd just have fun rotating tanks and groupings on CT to see what works, what doesn't, and what's the oddest raid composition such a raid mob can be done with....all without interference.

For that you would have to create your own emu server ;) Not gonna happen.

2nd league can happen. Just need to make sure it's a reasonable request. And I'm waiting for feedback from TMO on this, to know where we stand. With FE atm there is ground to get something started. Maybe not what some people would expect/like, but at least get things in motion. Just need TMO's consent now on the concept to work out the details.

[maverixdamighty]

The biggest proponent is that there hasn't been and doesn't seem to be any change in regards to staff or players despite these types of threads taking place, it's all talk. The only manageable benefit from things like this was ragefire at one point in time. Many people who have dealt with the trash that is currently considered competition or effort fall into having been burnt out, not wanting to waste further time for fear of burning out or ruining the game for themselves, and then you have those who thrive on the broken scene at any cost.

The only way to truly make anything like this discussion work is to make the game mechanics true to classic with no variance and simulated respawns that is all there is to it. With no windows everyone's effort is on an even playing field where discussions can actually hold weight and a week of mobs guarantee's seeing certain mobs multiple times (cause it bars the chance of continued extension in window that may happen now). Even a shorter variance for those who have argued for different time zones works, but NO window guarantees an easier forum to make restrictions on time for guilds A, B, and C etc. to make their attempts while also holding people honest to when a mob actually spawned if a rotation type setting were to take place. However, if classic mechanics came back there would be no need to convey a petition for 1 week of mobs either.

At the end of the day acting like one person or group of people is superior and needs to be viewed as an authority figure for approval is completely ludicrous. All the people here who play the game are the same aka EverQuest fans/players. The respect and treatment of each other is truly what it all boils down to, which sadly with as much hate and disregard that has transpired it continues to prove that is what holds priority over any other possibilities.

Feel free to prove me wrong though i'd actually like to see respect, kindness, and the so called play nice policy actually be utilized. Mentioning sports in correlation to this game or more accurately this server is a slap in the face to sports because atleast in sporting events that is true competition and there is always a level of respect or sportsmanship involved no matter the personal views of the people involved. Sports have a set of rules that are constantly followed and dealt with plus the fact that the results are never lawyered they are simply accepted and learned from.

People think classic promotes poopsocking, what it promotes is true competition with less likelihood of training due to knowing when to clear and limits the plethora of GM disputes that can happen now. With that aspect the FTE standards are now all that's left.

TLDR - These discussions for the most part aren't worthwhile due to no changes ever resulting from any in the past, it's all just talk or wishful thinking (excluding ragefire). The only solution is a classic raid scene as well as improved conduct between players, both of which appear won't be happening as other detrimental precedents seem to be preferred. I would love to be proven wrong though.

tmo has given up mobs in the past so there has been more than just ragefire. I'm not in TMO and i can admit that...

[Splorf22]

For that you would have to create your own emu server ;) Not gonna happen.

2nd league can happen. Just need to make sure it's a reasonable request. And I'm waiting for feedback from TMO on this, to know where we stand. With FE atm there is ground to get something started. Maybe not what some people would expect/like, but at least get things in motion. Just need TMO's consent now on the concept to work out the details.

Hope things work out for you. Just understand that Chest's idea (full rotation by guild on all mobs in never going to happen in a million years). Something like TMO/FE/Open on the outdoor Kunark dragons and maestro/draco would be fantastic though.

[AenarieFenninRo]

During TMO's vacation we gave up eveything, I know Div got a brass knuckle off Dojo, other guilds got Trak BPs, plus critical VS, and Fay epic pieces. No one deserves to be blocked from content just because. I'm happy that FE's pressure might have coerced TMO into a rotation but don't fall into the same trap. Breaking the cycle of stupidity should be embraced once that reality is possible, it shouldn't fall back into "well FE needs to get their fill first then we can talk other targets"

Shinko has assured me that FE exists to break the stranglehold of TMO, which is why I don't harbor any ill will towards him splitting off. I guarantee if TMO agreed to a full server rotation FE would be the first one to sign the agreement.

This whole post belongs in R&F, not as part of this discussion.

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

This whole post belongs in R&F, not as part of this discussion.

Obviously, accurately stating the past usefulness of rotating raid mobs is total RnF fodder.

[KotBK]

tmo has given up mobs in the past so there has been more than just ragefire. I'm not in TMO and i can admit that...

How you got this out of my novel i do not know. I was talking in regards to rotation purposes in which this thread took a turn for with which only ragefire ever truly worked in regards to a server wide aspect since kunark release. Leaving mobs up has been done by more than just TMO as i wasn't turning any one specific guild into the villain or saying that action hasn't happened in the past.

2010 is the only year real competition took place on this server between multiple guilds (3-5 guilds) for the majority of that year. There wasn't any giving or rotation then either, but at the same time most of the trash that is around now wasn't there back then aside from DT cycles in fear (but hard to avoid that with 3-5 guilds in the zone at once, so it was expected). It just goes to prove that it enlies with the player base and staff as from back then to now the majority of both have been changed with the exception of now there is actually MORE content, yet less positive results for the scene as a whole.

Again to reiterate it has to deal moreso with the mechanics of the game and the temperament of the players in game to make improvements a reality.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Obviously, accurately stating the past usefulness of rotating raid mobs is total RnF fodder.

this wasn't a statement of past usefulness, it was a "white knight" attempt at the expense of TMO in the veil of being a useful statement. I wont go into that here though, because as I said, it doesn't belong here.

[AenarieFenninRo]

How you got this out of my novel i do not know.

I think he quoted wrong person ... I could be wrong though.

I do agree with you on this though:

Again to reiterate it has to deal moreso with the mechanics of the game and the temperament of the players in game to make improvements a reality.

[maverixdamighty]

How you got this out of my novel i do not know. I was talking in regards to rotation purposes in which this thread took a turn for with which only ragefire ever truly worked in regards to a server wide aspect since kunark release. Leaving mobs up has been done by more than just TMO as i wasn't turning any one specific guild into the villain or saying that action hasn't happened in the past.

2010 is the only year real competition took place on this server between multiple guilds (3-5 guilds) for the majority of that year. There wasn't any giving or rotation then either, but at the same time most of the trash that is around now wasn't there back then aside from DT cycles in fear (but hard to avoid that with 3-5 guilds in the zone at once, so it was expected). It just goes to prove that it enlies with the player base and staff as from back then to now the majority of both have been changed with the exception of now there is actually MORE content, yet less positive results for the scene as a whole.

Again to reiterate it has to deal moreso with the mechanics of the game and the temperament of the players in game to make improvements a reality.

you listed ragefire as the only real arrangement made that mattered and I'm just saying there are more than that, pretty simple concept.

[AenarieFenninRo]

you listed ragefire as the only real arrangement made that mattered and I'm just saying there are more than that, pretty simple concept.

and apparently I was ;)

[maverixdamighty]

and apparently I was ;)

ya I was giving tmo credit when you guys left targets up for the server. there have been other arrangements made between guilds to benefits all parties as well.

[KotBK]

Read all of what i wrote it's also a pretty simple concept that had nothing to do with how you are perceiving it other than putting words in my mouth. You will see i explained myself and addressed the matter in which you are trying to say i didn't my friend.

Even Aenarie thought you quoted the wrong person that is how off base you were.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Back to the topic at hand... suggestions on how to "fix" the raid scene

[maverixdamighty]

Read all of what i wrote it's also a pretty simple concept that had nothing to do with how you are perceiving it other than putting words in my mouth. You will see i explained myself and addressed the matter in which you are trying to say i didn't my friend.

Even Aenarie thought you quoted the wrong person that is how off base you were.

read your second sentence of your first post. Not putting words in your mouth they are there for anyone to read. Also the whole 2nd paragraph is just wrong. You think getting rid of variance is going to do anything to help anyone outside of the top 2 guilds? It just means when we have the spawn timers both guilds will be on top of the mobs for a FTE fight for everything...the only way more guilds are going to have more fun in terms of raid content is for velious to come out.

[arsenalpow]

Obviously, accurately stating the past usefulness of rotating raid mobs is total RnF fodder.

this wasn't a statement of past usefulness, it was a "white knight" attempt at the expense of TMO in the veil of being a useful statement. I wont go into that here though, because as I said, it doesn't belong here.

There's no white knight about it, BDA giving up mobs (every mob at least once) proves that the change needs to come from the top, with great power comes great responsibility or something right? I worry about the long term health of the server, always have. We all need to be better custodians of this place or eventually the Devs and GMs will pull the plug because they'll grow weary of a bunch 30+ year old children crying about pixels.

If TMO doesn't care about the long term health of the server then things will continue as normal, maintain that status quo and get dem pixels.

[AenarieFenninRo]

this post is de-evolving into statements about what the other person said, and i'm including myself in that lump... lets let the past go, and go forward please :)

[uygi]

...log in 24 hours a day to earfuck said target with 40 other guildmates...
Ahh, the term earfuck is alive and well. My legacy in BDA is intact!


If someone guilded with me does something that doesn't align with how we do things then they get to find a new guild. It's called having standards.I know you try to take the high road, and I appreciate that, but at a certain point you joined the bandwagon Chest. I totally agree that there was no choice, but let's be realistic; you don't have a zero-tolerance policy for FTE sniping, sitting on spawn points, or training in VP. BDA just doesn't often bother to do any of those things any more. I still <3 you!


Smaller guilds have tried in the past to track, and mobilize. And even poopsock. More than once. Problem is, it's been proven to be ineffective.Not true. As I said before, small guilds have had variously successful efforts in the past. Back when IB and DA got all the targets and VD and TMO were the rough equivalent of BDA/FC/FV-type guilds, VD (yes, FEVDA!) and TMO joined forces to beat out the top guilds for an Innoruuk. I was there on Myuharin and Zeelot and I worked together and enjoyed killing what was a server first for both guilds. Ask Drakakade how floored he was to get an Earth Staff in like January 2011.

Then there are raiding partnerships/alliances/agreements. VD did this the most. When one of the top guilds needed muscle, VD formed mutually beneficial agreements with both DA and IB/TR. Ironically, we were on both sides of that divide, separated by only like 5 months. But VD got tons of loot out of both arrangements, and FE has a lot of loot and keys (and TMO has a decent amount as well) from VDs successes. If, hypothetically, TMO starts getting swept under the rug, or needs more people, or whatever, they would probably be happy to enter into an agreement (FE is newer, freshly growing and probably a lot less likely). In the past TMO has absorbed guilds, but it doesn't have to work that way as evidenced by VD which maintained its independence until the day it died.

[KotBK]

read your second sentence of your first post. Not putting words in your mouth they are there for anyone to read. Also the whole 2nd paragraph is just wrong. You think getting rid of variance is going to do anything to help anyone outside of the top 2 guilds? It just means when we have the spawn timers both guilds will be on top of the mobs for a FTE fight for everything...the only way more guilds are going to have more fun in terms of raid content is for velious to come out.

You have the right to your opinion, but it is falling in line with the problem that this server has become. How classic mechanics on a classic server are completely wrong is beyond me. It worked on live and it worked on here for the majority of this servers early life until certain politics came about that have proven to create more stress and negativity than is required.

The fact remains with my statement it is the game mechanics as well as the players temperament in game that need to change for anything positive to actually take place. We can all post on here until we're red in the fingers and blue in the face, but more likely than not it won't change a thing as has been seen by the fail rate percentage being much greater than the success result percentage.

Velious has its pro's and con's, everyone thought kunark would bring improvement due to just increasing encounters when all it did was create further despair as far as the raid scene is concerned. I guess only time will tell though, but without significant change the bad can only get worse. The great majority agrees changes need to be made and actions speak louder than words. This also goes to the point of what happens in game is conveyed a lot clearer cause it appears many people misunderstand forum text fairly easy for lack of reading or simply due to their own selfish propaganda.

[pharmakos]

We all need to be better custodians of this place or eventually the Devs and GMs will pull the plug because they'll grow weary of a bunch 30+ year old children crying about pixels.

this.

[maverixdamighty]

You have the right to your opinion, but it is falling in line with the problem that this server has become. How classic mechanics on a classic server are completely wrong is beyond me. It worked on live and it worked on here for the majority of this servers early life until certain politics came about that have proven to create more stress and negativity than is required.

The fact remains with my statement it is the game mechanics as well as the players temperament in game that need to change for anything positive to actually take place. We can all post on here until we're red in the fingers and blue in the face, but more likely than not it won't change a thing as has been seen by the fail rate percentage being much greater than the success result percentage.

Velious has its pro's and con's, everyone thought kunark would bring improvement due to just increasing encounters when all it did was create further despair as far as the raid scene is concerned. I guess only time will tell though, but without significant change the bad can only get worse. The great majority agrees changes need to be made and actions speak louder than words. This also goes to the point of what happens in game is conveyed a lot clearer cause it appears many people misunderstand forum text fairly easy for lack of reading or simply due to their own selfish propaganda.

it worked on live because more content became available. if not for expansions on live it would have probably ended up just like this. hence my solution is release velious which will open more content for all (which we all know is already in the works). I still don't see how people are arguing that the top 2 guilds on a server dominating content is not classic though. Aside from a few servers with rotations this was classic. I've been in casual guilds here before and when these conversations came up I was the first to say if we want the mobs we have to put in the time. Nothing has changed from that standpoint in my point of view.

edit: ask people in div they probably still have the naggy/vox spreadsheets I created for alts to try to get organized to hit targets like that during the guild's peak hours if they popped

[tersoth78]

Never been a raider in EQ so I have no idea if this would even be effective. Its just my two cents.
Why not have a place that a guild schedules a time for a raid mob. Have mobs spawn on mondays and fridays. Scheduled has two days to kill or it goes free for all till next scheduled guild.

Mon: spawn
Tuesday: still guilds
Wednesday : ffa
Thursday: ffa
Friday: spawn
Saturday: still guilds
Sunday: ffa

With some simple rules applied it seems with my limited knowledge it might work. Guild would need to register to be a raid guild. You cant pick the same mob twice in a row. Could do a lottery to see who gets first pick then just rotate around from there with new guilds added to the end.sign ups would be two weeks out for each spawn. In order to register (thursday would be good for this) gm would spawn mob and you would prove your guild could kill it no loot. Any unregistered mobs are ffa from spawn start.

[AenarieFenninRo]

Never been a raider in EQ so I have no idea if this would even be effective. Its just my two cents.
Why not have a place that a guild schedules a time for a raid mob. Have mobs spawn on mondays and fridays. Scheduled has two days to kill or it goes free for all till next scheduled guild.

Mon: spawn
Tuesday: still guilds
Wednesday : ffa
Thursday: ffa
Friday: spawn
Saturday: still guilds
Sunday: ffa

With some simple rules applied it seems with my limited knowledge it might work. Guild would need to register to be a raid guild. You cant pick the same mob twice in a row. Could do a lottery to see who gets first pick then just rotate around from there with new guilds added to the end.sign ups would be two weeks out for each spawn. In order to register (thursday would be good for this) gm would spawn mob and you would prove your guild could kill it no loot. Any unregistered mobs are ffa from spawn start.

THEORETICALLY... something like this could work

IN REALITY... Why would a guild like TMO or FE choose to do this? If they were limited to one mob per week, there would be no reason for guilds like them to exist. If they could only raid the mob every other week, there would be no reason for them to exist... basically something like this tolls a death knell for larger guilds, because who would be 1 of 50+ players, when they get mobs just as often being 1 of 15 players, and loot more often.

[tersoth78]

I wasn't really sure what the spawn time was on raid mobs. I thought they were on like a week or so timer as it was.

[KotBK]

I still don't see how people are arguing that the top 2 guilds on a server dominating content is not classic though. Aside from a few servers with rotations this was classic. I've been in casual guilds here before and when these conversations came up I was the first to say if we want the mobs we have to put in the time. Nothing has changed from that standpoint in my point of view.

This i agree with to an extent, i for one am not saying domination wasn't classic on some servers. Just simply the current mechanics on this server aren't and a lot of the immature behavior that is shown throughout in certain aspects on here for sure wasn't classic. Hard to think that back then maturity and the concept of respect seemed higher than it does now when we've all aged a great deal since then. Plus it is an age old everquest ideal that the more time you put in the chance of acquiring more rewards increases across the board. However, denying content or judging others poorly who can't devote 24/7 who may be just as skilled with the fewer hours they can afford to play a game isn't right either especially if their effort is being ignored or even worse trampled on.

The level of GM involvement we see here in regards to disputes to allow for rules lawyering, which lead to other childish antics in hopes to become victorious prior to engage and after engage was almost non-existent if not completely non-existent on live. So to say that what we have here currently is classic in any regard is quite a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

[slappytwotoes]

Most comments on this thread are people giving opinions on IF this will work instead of constructive brainstorming on HOW this will work.

Unless you're the latter, kindly GTFO of this thread.

Lotta new players on the server lately, maybe we can do what you old and grey crotchetty-ass players couldn't.

Please see the Checklist on page 7, nothing in the 'Still Need' category has even been addressed 10 pages of BS later.

[Lanuven]

Most comments on this thread are people giving opinions on IF this will work instead of constructive brainstorming on HOW this will work.

Unless you're the latter, kindly GTFO of this thread.

Lotta new players on the server lately, maybe we can do what you old and grey crotchetty-ass players couldn't.

Please see the Checklist on page 7, nothing in the 'Still Need' category has even been addressed 10 pages of BS later.

[maverixdamighty]

This i agree with to an extent, i for one am not saying domination wasn't classic on some servers. Just simply the current mechanics on this server aren't and a lot of the immature behavior that is shown throughout in certain aspects on here for sure wasn't classic. Hard to think that back then maturity and the concept of respect seemed higher than it does now when we've all aged a great deal since then. Plus it is an age old everquest ideal that the more time you put in the chance of acquiring more rewards increases across the board. However, denying content or judging others poorly who can't devote 24/7 who may be just as skilled with the fewer hours they can afford to play a game isn't right either especially if their effort is being ignored or even worse trampled on.

The level of GM involvement we see here in regards to disputes to allow for rules lawyering, which lead to other childish antics in hopes to become victorious prior to engage and after engage was almost non-existent if not completely non-existent on live. So to say that what we have here currently is classic in any regard is quite a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

Lots of stuff is not classic, but IMO the guild dynamics is close to classic. On tholuxe paells anytime a guild like FE would come up they would get crushed and be relegated to scraps. I am all for sharing some content if it was my call, but people demanding full rotations and all mobs being included is not something I would agree to. IMO if 4-5 raid mobs were left up every now and then it's 4-5 more than people are seeing now. Start with that and as more content becomes obsolete those 4-5 targets could become 7-8 or more etc.

Again i've never judged people poorly because they can't put in the time. I used to be in a casual guild because I just wanted to raid a few days a week and when we did raid i wanted it to be done effectively. I never looked down on this guild because they weren't killing trak because it wasn't within the scope of what the guild was trying to do. Even when I was in this guild when people would complain about X guild monopolizing spawns I had the same response as I do now, " if you want to get a mob you have to put in the effort, nothing is going to be given to you in this game nor should it be."

[Zallar]

Have each guild publish a roster with the names numbered.

Then each week have them go to the Arena and a rep from each guild does a /rand <number of names on the roster>.

The people randomly picked have to fight it out in the Arena. Winner gets choice of that raid target.

Battle for each raid target scheduled for the week.

[Chedduh]

Unless you're the latter, kindly GTFO of this thread.


Take your own advice if you are just going to complain!

How about setting the example of sharing some of your brainstorms?

[finalgrunt]

Please remain civil. You may use this thread to discuss your ideas, but the main goal is to try to get the current proposal going, and give you updates about it. You may find it lacking, but it must remain reasonable to have a chance of success. That comes from an old player on this server.

[Servellious]

You ask the gms to do something and they did. Sirken gave you the best bit of advice possible but that means some guilds leadership will have to give up power and will refuse to do so. Don't expect other guilds to give up the mobs when they have lots of people to gear up when you yourself refuse to make sacrifices

[slappytwotoes]

Take your own advice if you are just going to complain!

How about setting the example of sharing some of your brainstorms?

This thread is getting derailed by Sirken's comments... no guilds need to merge.

Is TMO on board with this? CHECK (according to Tiggles)
Is FE on board with this? CHECK (according to Shinko)

We still need:

Confirm 1 week every 3 months;
Confirm the raid targets (outdoor dragons + Draco/Maestro?) or all raid targets?
Confirm timer to FTE (24 hours?);
anything else?;

Smaller guilds on board?
A-Team? CHECK (according to Lorean)
Divinity? CHECK (according to OP)
Taken? CHECK (according to Aata)
Full Circle?
Flawless?
Europa? CHECK
any other I missed?

Let's finish this checklist and see where we're at.

Here's what I'm contributing: getting the thread back on the rails.

TMO and FE are BOTH amenable to the idea. But it needs a framework.

I like the original suggestions of 1 week every 3 months, all targets EXCEPT Trak and Gods.

24-hour FTE seems too long given it's a 7 day window. I wanna say 2 hours if it's primetime or weekend, 6 hours if not. But for simplicity, 4 hours FTE across the board.
Then its open to anyone, including TMO/FE.

Discuss.

[falkun]

THEORETICALLY... something like this could work

IN REALITY... Why would a guild like TMO or FE choose to do this? If they were limited to one mob per week, there would be no reason for guilds like them to exist. If they could only raid the mob every other week, there would be no reason for them to exist... basically something like this tolls a death knell for larger guilds, because who would be 1 of 50+ players, when they get mobs just as often being 1 of 15 players, and loot more often.
So instead you'd rather have this non-classic variance system which "basically tolls a death knell for smaller guilds, because who would be 1 of 24ish players in the same time-zone, when they never get mobs due to variance mechanics?"
You are arguing FOR variance (which is non-classic) because it BENEFITS TMO (and FE and other large guilds) while simultaneously saying mechanics that benefit smaller guilds are bad "because they don't benefit larger guilds." If you want a ruler to go by for measuring effectiveness, use the ruler this server uses for everything else: "Is it classic?" Otherwise, you've thrown out all the rulers and anything can be considered "worthy of review".

Raid mechanics were created and TMO and FE grew out of those raid mechanics. Alter raid mechanics again, and guilds will adapt to amass the most amount of pixels per raider again. But variance is not classic, and arguing for it is arguing against the rest of the philosophy of the server.

[slappytwotoes]

You ask the gms to do something and they did. Sirken gave you the best bit of advice possible but that means some guilds leadership will have to give up power and will refuse to do so. Don't expect other guilds to give up the mobs when they have lots of people to gear up when you yourself refuse to make sacrifices

Not saying other guilds besides TMO/FE deserve anything. Everyone involved is painfully aware that they don't because, you're right, they refuse to make the sacrifices.

That's why they're asking permission for table scraps (1 week in 12) to fight over.

Maybe the request doesn't work but its not unreasonable to ask.

[finalgrunt]

Thanks slappytwotoes for the help, much appreciated!

Few points though. I don't think we can realistically expect so many mobs being open for the first rounds. FE invested a lot to reach their current position, and I don't think they're willing to open everything. We'll have to take that into account.
The other point is that while on the paper TMO should be ok with it (considering how they brought endangered species, don't really have much need for most Kunark bosses, and some of them have voiced their approval), I haven't heard anything yet from their leadership. Therefore we can't yet say "it's ok".
And I'd rather see something getting started, even if it means less targets than the original proposal (which was everything minus Trak & VP) than nothing. We can build from there ;)

[Ravager]

All the arguments against rotations equate to the kid who hogs all the toys in the sandbox deserves to play with those toys more because he's spent all his time hogging them.

[Lyra]

All the arguments against rotations equate to the kid who hogs all the toys in the sandbox deserves to play with those toys more because he's spent all his time hogging them.

And posting this is not helping the situation either.

I love this thread.

Keep working at it, YOU CAN DO IT!!!!

All us future raiders are cheering you on.

[Woahnelly]

1 week every 3 months is begging for scraps. if enough people are fully intolerant to the current situation, change will come.

Example: I don't like TMO or FE's tactics and mob hoggery

Solution: nobody does any business with any player in those guilds.

After a little time maybe they would be willing to actually bring something constructive to the round table.

[maverixdamighty]

All the arguments against rotations equate to the kid who hogs all the toys in the sandbox deserves to play with those toys more because he's spent all his time hogging them.

posts like this should help with establishing a rotation! Let's stay with your analogy. If the top 2 guilds are the kids who hog all the toys in the sandbox it seems like alot of the guilds asking for this rotation are complaining about that sandbox without every actually taking the time to come to the sandbox to see if it's available...

[Funkutron5000]

I see it more like a black friday deal with one item on the shelf. Two people have been waiting in line to dash to pick up the item while a bunch of other people show up at some point and want those two to stop running so every can discuss whose chance it is to grab it.

Stupid analogies aside, I'm not against a rotation at all, by the way, but a lot of tedious and terrible tracking work goes into getting those mobs, and a lot of us (at least in FE) still need a lot of those loots to upgrade. Plus, killing dragons is fun! I look forward to seeing something worked out so everyone can get a chance to do it.

TL; DR: We still want/ need loot, but at least this paladin would like everyone that wants a shot to kill some dragons to be able to kill some dragons.

[OMGWTF420]

asking the "top" guild for anything besides a train, some fraps, and a petition is an exercise in futility. you arent the first person to ask for a rotation and im sure you wont be the last, lets review!

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=83176&highlight=rotation

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77668&highlight=rotation

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77403&highlight=rotation

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75916&highlight=rotation

these are just a few threads dealing with the topic of rotation that i just picked at random from a simple search... i did however find one thread about rotations that actually worked. surprisingly it was when TMO was on suspension

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=76871&highlight=rotation

[pharmakos]

1 week every 3 months is begging for scraps. if enough people are fully intolerant to the current situation, change will come.

Example: I don't like TMO or FE's tactics and mob hoggery

Solution: nobody does any business with any player in those guilds.

After a little time maybe they would be willing to actually bring something constructive to the round table.

but then i'll never get a Cobalt BP :(

[Lyra]

lets review


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfUYuIVbFg0

[AenarieFenninRo]

So instead you'd rather have this non-classic variance system which "basically tolls a death knell for smaller guilds, because who would be 1 of 24ish players in the same time-zone, when they never get mobs due to variance mechanics?"
You are arguing FOR variance (which is non-classic) because it BENEFITS TMO (and FE and other large guilds) while simultaneously saying mechanics that benefit smaller guilds are bad "because they don't benefit larger guilds." If you want a ruler to go by for measuring effectiveness, use the ruler this server uses for everything else: "Is it classic?" Otherwise, you've thrown out all the rulers and anything can be considered "worthy of review".

Raid mechanics were created and TMO and FE grew out of those raid mechanics. Alter raid mechanics again, and guilds will adapt to amass the most amount of pixels per raider again. But variance is not classic, and arguing for it is arguing against the rest of the philosophy of the server.

Thats a whole lot of depth you're adding to what I said...

Please don't put words into my mouth, or assume you know what I am thinking...

My statement was, and remains: 1 mob a week for any larger guild is not a solution to a larger guild because it makes them unnecessary, so an argument of one mob a week for a larger guild is not an effective solution. This goes for anyone in a larger guild, be it TMO / FE or any other large guild (sorry I don't know if any other guilds have 50+ as an arbitrary value for "large").

Thats ALL I am saying, sometimes its as simple as it reads. We're looking for a solution to suit all parties here... small and large guild alike.

and for your own edification based on your assumption, I am neither pro, nor anti rotation... I simply work with whatever the current situation is... currently that means working with variance... if variance goes away, then it will be working without variance. This is not a thread about variance though, so if you want one of those... go make a separate post.

[AenarieFenninRo]

asking the "top" guild for anything besides a train, some fraps, and a petition is an exercise in futility. you arent the first person to ask for a rotation and im sure you wont be the last, lets review!

...

these are just a few threads dealing with the topic of rotation that i just picked at random from a simple search

...



I do not think a well reasoned conversation about how to change things is an exercise in futility, nor does TMO... or FE (trying to be inclusive here guys, sorry if I am assuming too much :))

All of these references you have made were based on searching for the word rotation. This thread has been stated MANY times as NOT about rotations as we all (even the OP) seem to agree that this isn't the way to go.

It may be that in the end, some hybrid-bastardized rotation method is selected as the way to proceed, but until we have a solution, that has yet to be determined... for now we're leaving that ugly word out of it though ;)

[kotton05]

I see it more like a black friday deal with one item on the shelf. Two people have been waiting in line to dash to pick up the item while a bunch of other people show up at some point and want those two to stop running so every can discuss whose chance it is to grab it.

Stupid analogies aside, I'm not against a rotation at all, by the way, but a lot of tedious and terrible tracking work goes into getting those mobs, and a lot of us (at least in FE) still need a lot of those loots to upgrade. Plus, killing dragons is fun! I look forward to seeing something worked out so everyone can get a chance to do it.

TL; DR: We still want/ need loot, but at least this paladin would like everyone that wants a shot to kill some dragons to be able to kill some dragons.

+1

This exactly, Nothing is stopping other guilds from joining up to go get a mob. I have yet to really hear a way this could work, sounds like a pipe dream. No GM intervention will mean betrayl in the end imo=-/

Guys if you really want a mob, focus on one, track it, camp out there and pull fast. Only way to get it at this current time. I'm sure velious will clear up alot of stuff allowing guilds/small groups of friends to kill some rare raid merbs. Thats what I'd want the dev/GM team to be focusing on anyways. WTB velious=-)

[Tierael]

+1

This exactly, Nothing is stopping other guilds from joining up to go get a mob. I have yet to really hear a way this could work, sounds like a pipe dream. No GM intervention will mean betrayl in the end imo=-/

Guys if you really want a mob, focus on one, track it, camp out there and pull fast. Only way to get it at this current time. I'm sure velious will clear up alot of stuff allowing guilds/small groups of friends to kill some rare raid merbs. Thats what I'd want the dev/GM team to be focusing on anyways. WTB velious=-)

You do know that even with BDA or FV or FC or Divinity hanging out with a full force clearing Hate/Fear, and Maestro/Draco pops, you guys still mobilize and pull faster than those guilds can finish their current pulls, right?

Telling these guilds to track, camp, and mobilize to compete, when they literally do all 3 of those and still lose by a mile, does no good.

[OMGWTF420]

I do not think a well reasoned conversation about how to change things is an exercise in futility, nor does TMO... or FE (trying to be inclusive here guys, sorry if I am assuming too much :))

All of these references you have made were based on searching for the word rotation. This thread has been stated MANY times as NOT about rotations as we all (even the OP) seem to agree that this isn't the way to go.

It may be that in the end, some hybrid-bastardized rotation method is selected as the way to proceed, but until we have a solution, that has yet to be determined... for now we're leaving that ugly word out of it though ;)


my skepticism is based purely off past experience's/conversations. ive started these threads in the past as well, and many good ideas will get passed around them, but ultimately they always lead to

"people just want welfare mobs, if you want that shit get out there and take it"

or something

[maverixdamighty]

You do know that even with BDA or FV or FC or Divinity hanging out with a full force clearing Hate/Fear, and Maestro/Draco pops, you guys still mobilize and pull faster than those guilds can finish their current pulls, right?


if that's the case do you really deserve the mob? I can't think of any draco/maestro pops i've gone to since being in FE where this was even the case.

[Tierael]

if that's the case do you really deserve the mob? I can't think of any draco/maestro pops i've gone to since being in FE where this was even the case.

I know for a fact the last time I personally was in Fear, we were clearing, and Draco popped. You guys moved so fast we just decided to get out of the way, else we die in the madness.

I know for a fact the FIRST time I went to hate (a month ago), Divinity was doing the same thing, and TMO/FE/BDA mobilized for Maestro faster than Div finished their pull. They were not so lucky to get out, and ended up having their fun Hate clear wiped out.

[maverixdamighty]

I know for a fact the last time I personally was in Fear, we were clearing, and Draco popped. You guys moved so fast we just decided to get out of the way, else we die in the madness.

I know for a fact the FIRST time I went to hate (a month ago), Divinity was doing the same thing, and TMO/FE/BDA mobilized for Maestro faster than Div finished their pull. They were not so lucky to get out, and ended up having their fun Hate clear wiped out.

i remember one where bda had wiped in fear when he popped and we came in and killed draco while almost wiping ourselves.

There have been just as many examples of guilds prepping for kills and getting them. Regardless back on topic any word from TMO about potentially leaving up non-priority targets?

[TheLieka]

Haters. They gon hate.

[kotton05]

Tarathiel said it good. Lots of great ideas but leads to same conclusion. Only thing I could add is interpersonal relationships amongst officers and members amongst guilds. There is always bad apples. But I've sure found gems in every guild on the server. Maybe something forged thru friend ship could only then a spawn be delegated away. Idk just spit balling.

[SCB]

Really with the post deleting?

[Sizzle]

If someone presented that as *an actual design for a game* they would be drummed out of the business.

Granted, it may work for you and your wife, but it is still not healthy. It is the least imaginative solution to what to do with the high end eq sandbox, which gives you a server to get nostalgic on once or twice a week.

So it has settled: those who get into the ZKPLC guild, and the ultra casual.

Without a solid mid-game that can potentially cause havoc with the high end, all you got is an autopilot server. Weird OCD types running guilds that just endlessly farm all spawns, and give out the candy by officer vote fiat. Weird trip, man, weird trip.

Reminds me of Darkoor and Vis Maior on quellious. And we all know what happened to him

edit: google darkoor mistell

I agree with you 110%. Seriously, it may work for some people but in the grand scheme of things it isn't exactly bringing a whole lot of new players to the server. I know Vis Maior well I played on Quellious as well. I remember when an old time officer of VM started a public raiding guild for the server (Lost raiders of Norrath, LRoN). This consisted of MANY (5-10) smaller guilds that got together when people were available on a weekday or weekend and killed (at the time PoP was the big xpac) raid mobs. We flag all the way to the elemental planes before "I" decided to take a break from EQ. It gave other people a chance at things that they normally wouldn't have had the chance of getting. Mustaza ring any bells for anyone?

[Woobi]

Anyone ever think of this?

The way we have the server now as capitalism.
Rotation would be communism.

[pharmakos]

Anyone ever think of this?

The way we have the server now as capitalism.
Rotation would be communism.

the USA is capitalist, but the government still intervenes to break up monopolies...

current state of the raid scene is basically anarchy =p

[Kagatob]

Getting rid of the FTE policy entirely would be a great first step to fixing things around here.

[OMGWTF420]

Getting rid of the FTE policy entirely would be a great first step to fixing things around here.

remove variance and eliminate gm intervention except on cases of ninja looting, i guarantee there would be a rotation within month

who would want that tho? peace doesnt make for exciting thread titles and website traffic

if all the threads were about "what class i should make?" or "whats a good spot for a lvl whatever shaman to solo" then this would be a rather dismal place

/tinfoilhat off

[Kagatob]

remove variance and eliminate gm intervention except on cases of ninja looting, i guarantee there would be a rotation within month
I agree this would be a great step after removing FTE, with the exception that training should still be considered something against the "play nice policy" and suspensions should be awarded for breaking such policy(outside of Greifer's Peak of course).

They also should enforce a "raid force" policy, that once you have enough players in a zone that could realistically kill a particular target and they are in position to engage such a target that they should be given first dibs on said target.

This would specifically be a good way to combat a guild like TMO who have many individual players camping multiple alts at different mobs so via batphone they are a click away from adding another player to the force since poopsocks involving multiple guilds can't exist under this ruleset and whatever character that's camped there is camped there for nothing in this situation.

This suggestion of course has been repeatedly ignored even though it's known there are timestamps for how long characters have been logged in and when they enter zones so proving who's "force" was there first is as simple as a GM looking at a zonelog.
who would want that tho? peace doesnt make for exciting thread titles and website traffic

if all the threads were about "what class i should make?" or "whats a good spot for a lvl whatever shaman to solo" then this would be a rather dismal place

/tinfoilhat off
People will always find things to flame each other over, don't lose faith just yet.

[pharmakos]

variance was a good experiment, but i think it causes more problems than it fixes

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

did a GM a few pages back speak admiringly of the zerg guild approach to gaming? The single worst guild model eq -- or any other online game -- has ever sunk to?


all is now explained. The server is run by drones who dream of drone armies. Yikes.

It used to be considered shameful to have a roster that exceeded your raid force. Glad to see the GM's here keepin things gimped.

[Tenlaar]

I am having a lot of fun playing on this server. I enjoy my time on this server. And I absolutely dread hitting level 60 on this server.

To see a GM say that if people want to kill raid mobs they should join the poopzerg is incredibly disheartening.

[finalgrunt]

Morning update, no word from TMO leaders yet. So I don't even know if it's being discussed. If a TMO member could give us some feedback if anything is going, would be appreciated ;)

[maverixdamighty]

I am having a lot of fun playing on this server. I enjoy my time on this server. And I absolutely dread hitting level 60 on this server.

To see a GM say that if people want to kill raid mobs they should join the poopzerg is incredibly disheartening.

not what the gm said at all.

[maverixdamighty]

did a GM a few pages back speak admiringly of the zerg guild approach to gaming? The single worst guild model eq -- or any other online game -- has ever sunk to?


all is now explained. The server is run by drones who dream of drone armies. Yikes.

It used to be considered shameful to have a roster that exceeded your raid force. Glad to see the GM's here keepin things gimped.

Pretty sure he said if a few of those guilds merged they could compete for the mobs. If you feel that means zerging that's your perception, or if you look at it rationally it could just mean that if you have a guild of 40 ppl and you merge with a guild of 40 ppl then it's more likely you could field 30-40 ppl to kill raid mobs when it pops. Just curious what is your raiding experience here on P99?

[finalgrunt]

Pretty sure he said if a few of those guilds merged they could compete for the mobs. If you feel that means zerging that's your perception, or if you look at it rationally it could just mean that if you have a guild of 40 ppl and you merge with a guild of 40 ppl then it's more likely you could field 30-40 ppl to kill raid mobs when it pops. Just curious what is your raiding experience here on P99?

You know all too well that having a big roster is only one part of what's required to compete. In short, you also need to sell your soul to the pixel god :D
2nd league would be for the people not able/ready to do so heh.

Back to the topic. TMO, we waiting for your answer pals!

P.S: Cheers to all of you who sent me supporting msgs in game yesterday btw ^^

[Llodd]

Pretty sure he said if a few of those guilds merged they could compete for the mobs. If you feel that means zerging that's your perception, or if you look at it rationally it could just mean that if you have a guild of 40 ppl and you merge with a guild of 40 ppl then it's more likely you could field 30-40 ppl to kill raid mobs when it pops. Just curious what is your raiding experience here on P99?

How do they compete for the mobs? They have to poopsock and 24/7 track/batphone
Which requires stupidly large guilds with enough able to log in at a moments notice.

Now there are other alternatives to that, but unfortunately they require server cooperation. Something to which this thread pertains - and the answer from the GM is not exactly in the spirit of that is it. It was a terrible reply whichever way you look at it, not to mention uninspiringly unoriginal.

[maverixdamighty]

How do they compete for the mobs? They have to poopsock and 24/7 track/batphone
Which requires stupidly large guilds with enough able to log in at a moments notice.

Now there are other alternatives to that, but unfortunately they require server cooperation. Something to which this thread pertains - and the answer from the GM is not exactly in the spirit of that is it. It was a terrible reply whichever way you look at it, not to mention uninspiringly unoriginal.

people still talking about poopsocking aren't in touch with the current raid scene. Daimadoshi my only question for you is were you championing this when you were in IB and they had the server content on lockdown?

[finalgrunt]

people still talking about poopsocking aren't in touch with the current raid scene. Daimadoshi my only question for you is were you championing this when you were in IB and they had the server content on lockdown?

If you've been around and close to me since I started playing on p99, you would know the answer.
Let's say I wasn't advocating IB's policy, even after the merge. Got almost booted for that few times :D (You would be hard pressed to find any occurence of me killing a poopsocked target. Because it never happened). But I also knew that I couldn't do anything to prevent it. Hyper competition is/was backed up by the staff, and clearly stated they wouldn't do anything to change it. There are some players who don't mind going full hardcore. Do the math. It's left to players to come up with solutions.

Today, I believe there is an opportunity with TMO & FE, and I'm just trying to get a reasonable request through. It's now in the hands of TMO to shake a hand on this, and help this server becoming a better place (while leaving an overwhelming ratio of the content available for hyper competition). Which I've come to accept. I don't agree with it, but that's because my classic experience differs from others, due to the server's nature I played on.

[Tanthallas]

Diamadoshi was arguing this with me back when IB and DA were going at it; I dont think his position ever changed.

I do not think such an agreement is possible like this at this point in time. FE was formed to put the heat on TMO, and agreeing to such terms would just give them time to relax which is exactly what they want.

Once the VP battles start, guilds that dont have the capacity or drive to mobilize in minutes will have much more time and much more content available. Having multiple characters will not mean much because leaving VP to kill other things on other characters will be a pretty large handicap.

[maverixdamighty]

If you've been around and close to me since I started playing on p99, you would knew the answer.
Let's say I wasn't advocating IB's policy, even after the merge. Got almost booted for that few times :D (You would be hard pressed to find any occurence of me killing a poopsocked target. Because it never happened). But I also knew that I couldn't do anything to prevent it. Hyper competition is/was backed up by the staff, and clearly stated they wouldn't do anything to change it. There are some players who don't mind going full hardcore. Do the math. It's left to players to come up with solutions.

Today, I believe there is an opportunity with TMO & FE, and I'm just trying to get a reasonable request through. It's now in the hands of TMO to shake a hand on this, and help this server becoming a better place (while leaving an overwhelming ratio of the content available for hyper competition). Which I've come to accept. I don't agree with it, but that's because my classic experience differs from others, due to the server's nature I played on.

Fair enough was an honest question. Didn't see these types of threads back in the day sponsored by IB is all.

[AenarieFenninRo]

They also should enforce a "raid force" policy, that once you have enough players in a zone that could realistically kill a particular target and they are in position to engage such a target that they should be given first dibs on said target.

This suggestion of course has been repeatedly ignored even though it's known there are timestamps for how long characters have been logged in and when they enter zones so proving who's "force" was there first is as simple as a GM looking at a zonelog.


The GMs did this once with the 15 man policy, and all it really did was promote poop socking. I don't think this is the answer we're looking for here.

[SamwiseRed]

should be an old fashion dps race, whoever gets the xp, gets the kill and its loot.

[Llodd]

people still talking about poopsocking aren't in touch with the current raid scene. Daimadoshi my only question for you is were you championing this when you were in IB and they had the server content on lockdown?

well sure. The current added variance has shaken things up bit, but you know full well it existed and would exist again if that was removed. way to miss the point tho, a+

[diplo]

personally, i think your best bet to get a dragon is wait til simulated repops. they should happen atleast once every 3 months, so you'll have your shot there.

[maverixdamighty]

well sure. The current added variance has shaken things up bit, but you know full well it existed and would exist again if that was removed. way to miss the point tho, a+

yes because talking about what used to be and is not any more makes an impact moving forward....F++++

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Pretty sure he said if a few of those guilds merged they could compete for the mobs. If you feel that means zerging that's your perception, or if you look at it rationally it could just mean that if you have a guild of 40 ppl and you merge with a guild of 40 ppl then it's more likely you could field 30-40 ppl to kill raid mobs when it pops. Just curious what is your raiding experience here on P99?

none. but batphone/zerg roster/loot council explains itself, does it not?

Or, are you curious about my raid experience in general? I've been in two 24/7 bathphone guilds with mandatory raid attendance or -DKP or just being booted.

I never could stand zerg roster guilds. That is easy mode. Hard mode is a guild where your roster = your raid force, and if you can't get to the mobs and compete and beat, you suck.

I have also enjoyed serious/casual guilds such as Divinity seems to be, and was in a very pleasant two guild "alliance" that worked pretty nicely for a few years.

And no, it is not my "perception": forming a guild that way exceeds your raid force, in order to make sure you always have a raid force, is the definition of a zerg guild.

At least don't be such a weak sauce newb that you try to deny that.

The many, the loot-awarded, the Zerg.

[Llodd]

yes because talking about what used to be and is not any more makes an impact moving forward....F++++

You're really going to roll with this?

How about not focusing on the "poopsock" part and go with the 24/7 batphone part. Then see where we end up ok? GO!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Good news gang. I've solved it.


Only allow guilds where the roster is clearly an attempt to form a raid force, not a carpet of zerg drones to monitor and quickly swarm anything that moves. Simply disband zerg guilds. And allow the uber-mega-fun-time backstabbing drama begin. We'll see who can dominate the server when your guild is your raid force with only a few extras. Recruitment might mean something then. The benefits are multitudinous.

Cap the # at the raid limit: 72. Any alt over 52 counts as a full member. Your raid force is your guild.

That used to be the honorable way to compete.

edit: casual guilds do not count. This would apply to guilds that are in the hunt for end-game content. Simply stand up, get some balls, and define what a end-game guild is: a single raid force.

Every week would be a new dynamic. Would remind me of quellious, where zerging was highly frowned upon, and as a result, during the good old days, we had, what, 4 guilds vying? It was competitive, and it had unwritten rules.

no zerg guild. your roster is your raid force. pick wisely, eh?

[maverixdamighty]

You're really going to roll with this?

How about not focusing on the "poopsock" part and go with the 24/7 batphone part. Then see where we end up ok? GO!

not everyone wakes up for raids. reaching.

[maverixdamighty]

none. but batphone/zerg roster/loot council explains itself, does it not?

Or, are you curious about my raid experience in general? I've been in two 24/7 bathphone guilds with mandatory raid attendance or -DKP or just being booted.

I never could stand zerg roster guilds. That is easy mode. Hard mode is a guild where your roster = your raid force, and if you can't get to the mobs and compete and beat, you suck.

I have also enjoyed serious/casual guilds such as Divinity seems to be, and was in a very pleasant two guild "alliance" that worked pretty nicely for a few years.

And no, it is not my "perception": forming a guild that way exceeds your raid force, in order to make sure you always have a raid force, is the definition of a zerg guild.

At least don't be such a weak sauce newb that you try to deny that.

The many, the loot-awarded, the Zerg.

cool so you don't raid here. all i was asking.

[Grahm]

What targets?

Ambassador DVinn

i laffed

[xCry0x]

I don't know if this was suggested or already responded to but why not just:

TMO & FE list what raid bosses they need... leave the rest up for 6-12 hours after spawning for the public then they are fair game?

As an old school EQ player I think the idea of straight up leaving mobs altogether so other people can kill them is very WoW inspired. At the same time, not straight poopsocking crap you do not need allows for some other guilds to get the kills if they can get their shit together fast enough. Giving it a 6-12 hour window before power guilds can roll through would allow other guilds to say hey "Inny should be up friday sometime, lets plan to organize at 5pm and see if he is up" vs, hey "Inny should be up friday, lets all be online all day waiting at his spawn"

I don't know what exactly FE/TMO 'needs' but from what I read it was basically:

Need:
Trak & CT

Maybe:
Inny/VS

Not really:
Drako, Maestro, outdoor dragons, sky (?)

Nobody Needs (except alts due to level cap):

Vox, Nag

With this list something could be put in place like...

Need: (time given to public, 0 hours)
Trak & CT

Maybe: (time given to public, 6 hours)
Inny/VS

Not really: (time given to public, 12 hours)
Drako, Maestro, outdoor dragons, sky (?)

Nobody Needs (except alts due to level cap): (Organized through public/alts as open pub raids on forum)
Vox, Nag


I know on Tunare hate/fear/vox/nag were all public raids where people reserved dates to 'lead' the raids then others signed up to attend. It worked well as far as I could tell... armor in planes was done by ./random unless last x amount of pieces. Vox/nag was done on a seniority system since people knew who had been a lot.. bsaically a straight up get in line system for CoF/RBB.

[maverixdamighty]

I don't know if this was suggested or already responded to but why not just:

TMO & FE list what raid bosses they need... leave the rest up for 6-12 hours after spawning for the public then they are fair game?

As an old school EQ player I think the idea of straight up leaving mobs altogether so other people can kill them is very WoW inspired. At the same time, not straight poopsocking crap you do not need allows for some other guilds to get the kills if they can get their shit together fast enough. Giving it a 6-12 hour window before power guilds can roll through would allow other guilds to say hey "Inny should be up friday sometime, lets plan to organize at 5pm and see if he is up" vs, hey "Inny should be up friday, lets all be online all day waiting at his spawn"

I don't know what exactly FE/TMO 'needs' but from what I read it was basically:

Need:
Trak & CT

Maybe:
Inny/VS

Not really:
Drako, Maestro, outdoor dragons, sky (?)

Nobody Needs (except alts due to level cap):

Vox, Nag

With this list something could be put in place like...

Need: (time given to public, 0 hours)
Trak & CT

Maybe: (time given to public, 6 hours)
Inny/VS

Not really: (time given to public, 12 hours)
Drako, Maestro, outdoor dragons, sky (?)

Nobody Needs (except alts due to level cap): (Organized through public/alts as open pub raids on forum)
Vox, Nag


I know on Tunare hate/fear/vox/nag were all public raids where people reserved dates to 'lead' the raids then others signed up to attend. It worked well as far as I could tell... armor in planes was done by ./random unless last x amount of pieces. Vox/nag was done on a seniority system since people knew who had been a lot.. bsaically a straight up get in line system for CoF/RBB.

TMO: Need nothing
FE: Need majority of mobs as it's a relativity new raiding guild

Think that's what this thread was working towards though coming up with a list of non-priority targets but some were saying that wasn't enough others insisting it had to be a full rotation. Daimadoshi as the OP of this thread seems to be one of the rational few who understand you start small and build as you go along.

[Kagatob]

ITT: People confusing the words "Need" and "Want".

It's a game, you don't need any of this crap, stop trying to fool yourselves and each other.

[maverixdamighty]

ITT: People confusing the words "Need" and "Want".

It's a game, you don't need any of this crap, stop trying to fool yourselves and each other.

if that's the case everyone in this thread wants the mobs. Ok we can change it to non-priority "wanted" mobs if that terminology works better for you.

[Jarnauga]

Give us one week per month. FE and TMO can still circle jerk on 3/4 on the mobs. Don't even include VP obviously.

Can't make that simpler than that.

[Sephyre]

Velious and a second server (released simultaneously) is the only real way this gridlock will ever break imo.

These problems existed on live, but new content came out so the top guilds moved on and the lower tier guilds moved into the older expansion content. Classic was out for too long, and Kunark has been out for way too long.

(Not the devs fault, they do an amazing job, just is what it is).

You also have a community that has been fire-hardened with competition. The fighting for the top on this server isn't going to go away, there are just too many people with the attitude of kill it if its up.

That's also pretty close to how it was back in the day, with some servers being FFA and others having rotations (which came and went).

I really hope a rotation gets up (even if its just 1 week per 3 months), as its a real shame that small guilds can't do _anything_ but I guess that's a byproduct of the age of the game and the experience of the playerbase.

I don't think you should dwell too much on Sirken's 'create your own zerg!' post. If anything, it should be clear that the variance/FTE system is not achieving any of its goals.

At this point, anything that reduces the burden on the admin/dev team to allow them to focus more on Velious should be the focal point. A rotation (even a tiny one) is a step in the right direction for this.

[maverixdamighty]

Give us one week per month. FE and TMO can still circle jerk on 3/4 on the mobs. Don't even include VP obviously.

Can't make that simpler than that.

Comments like that provide alot out motivation to work something out.

[Woahnelly]

Maverix,

You are a trolling fool who is not offering anything constructive to this thread. Do everybody a favor and stop posting, you pompous ass. Better yet...take the bridge.

[maverixdamighty]

Maverix,

You are a trolling fool who is not offering anything constructive to this thread. Do everybody a favor and stop posting, you pompous ass. Better yet...take the bridge.

i've offered a few suggestions, keep your comments in the rants section buddy.

[Kagatob]

if that's the case everyone in this thread wants the mobs. Ok we can change it to non-priority "wanted" mobs if that terminology works better for you.

Honest post.

Honesty is paramount as far as I'm concerned. Removing FTE would be the next step in the right direction.

[Tomatoking]

Come play red bro, Kill your opposition instead of asking permission to mooch a boss every 3 months.... Personally I think that whole rotation thing is disgusting, Though I understand TMO wanting to block FE's taking of X boss to avoid them gearing up or making plat and vice verse. So either way, Casuals are gonna miss out on those mobs until deep velious when no one cares about it anymore.

11 pages of fucking waa waa

you popsocking shitbags have NO NUTS , mobs sit up for a long time on red and you get to train people , kill them and make fun of them

WHY ARE YOU IDIOTS PLAYING ON BLUE

red even has an exp bonus , DELETE YOUR SMURFS

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Honest post.

Honesty is paramount as far as I'm concerned. Removing FTE would be the next step in the right direction.


removing fte just causes a guild to PL up a burst dps raid force to never lose the dps race. again, because one is allowing the guild to scale way beyond what fits the game.

Curtailing what can be allowed to play on the server at the high end as a guild is the solution, without imposing "managed" rotations and such.

This is only solution that eliminates both fte and dps snafus that are otherwise built into the game. If you say FTE is the rule, you get what happens now. If you say DPS, armies of shadow knights arise.

Rotation just forces a solution. Limiting what is allowed to function as a "guild" allows a solution to emerge in the gameplay itself. How small can a top guild get? Show lean can you make your roster?

But as long as zerg outfits are allowed to run their little drone wars, this of course could never happen.

ban zerg guilds, it can, and would.

[Kagatob]

There is no possible way to "ban" zerg guilds because the number of active players in a guild is not necessarily the numbers of that guild's active raid force. Yes, this is typically the case in "raiding" guilds, where you are booted for things like a fulltime job but that's not the case for any other type of guild.

I agree this would be a great step after removing FTE, with the exception that training should still be considered something against the "play nice policy" and suspensions should be awarded for breaking such policy(outside of Greifer's Peak of course).

They also should enforce a "raid force" policy, that once you have enough players in a zone that could realistically kill a particular target and they are in position to engage such a target that they should be given first dibs on said target.

This would specifically be a good way to combat a guild like TMO who have many individual players camping multiple alts at different mobs so via batphone they are a click away from adding another player to the force since poopsocks involving multiple guilds can't exist under this ruleset and whatever character that's camped there is camped there for nothing in this situation.

This suggestion of course has been repeatedly ignored even though it's known there are timestamps for how long characters have been logged in and when they enter zones so proving who's "force" was there first is as simple as a GM looking at a zonelog.

[finalgrunt]

Hi peeps, still not a single word from TMO. Where are they? :confused:

[kotton05]

You're really going to roll with this?

How about not focusing on the "poopsock" part and go with the 24/7 batphone part. Then see where we end up ok? GO!

poopsock doesn't exist with current window....

as for removing fte, I don't think that'll happen, a shout maybe.

Current FTE rule is good imo.

Batphone/tracking is fine too, if you wanna see what a non variance target looks like port up to Sky on sunday late morning east and watch (Dojo).... TMO wont ever rotate that target, its an fte crap shoot all the way, rather annoying.

I think a week leaving one mob untracked could work tho. It wouldn't be like a once a month thing imo, more like special occasion. Also with FE in vp our attention will leave other targets walking the mortal planes for a bit longer. VP vs TMO isn't a quick raid. I think here in the near future a guild willing to step up and focus on one mob like draco/maestro/fay maybe will get it.

[Boilon]

Well I doubt we could kill stuff like CT 24/7 anyway. Maybe an A-Team/Europa alliance hehehe :D

Well that would be interesting ;). Bit late to this thread been really busy this week (finally read all those pages, fffff).

@ Daimadoshi: Hope this might gain some traction unlike some of the previous attempts at this but here is to hoping. I have built a fairly good relationship with most of the 'casual' guilds and can say that I would gladly give my support in the pursuit of something like this and even teaming up with some (you know who you are ;) ) if that leads to a greater enjoyment of this server. Honestly I have been getting kind of bored of leveling my other toons and can't be asked to level my 3rd 52+ toon for no real reason anymore.

Like others have said even the ability to attempt something without TMO/FE/whoever else being rammed down your throat 2 mins after a mob pops would be a blessing.

[Llodd]

not everyone wakes up for raids. reaching.

Still refusing to address the point I see.

Yes not everyone wakes up for raids - which is the exact reason why guilds have to be so damn large to compete. So long as enough wake up its all systems go.

Now take a small guild that can only raid within a certain window. What chance have they to get a raid target? Which is one of the main driving forces behind this whole thread.

[maverixdamighty]

Still refusing to address the point I see.

Yes not everyone wakes up for raids - which is the exact reason why guilds have to be so damn large to compete. So long as enough wake up its all systems go.

Now take a small guild that can only raid within a certain window. What chance have they to get a raid target? Which is one of the main driving forces behind this whole thread.

small guilds on live rarely got targets as well, what's your point? Again seems like you just want loot/pixels without having to do anything.

[maverixdamighty]

removing fte just causes a guild to PL up a burst dps raid force to never lose the dps race. again, because one is allowing the guild to scale way beyond what fits the game.

Curtailing what can be allowed to play on the server at the high end as a guild is the solution, without imposing "managed" rotations and such.

This is only solution that eliminates both fte and dps snafus that are otherwise built into the game. If you say FTE is the rule, you get what happens now. If you say DPS, armies of shadow knights arise.

Rotation just forces a solution. Limiting what is allowed to function as a "guild" allows a solution to emerge in the gameplay itself. How small can a top guild get? Show lean can you make your roster?

But as long as zerg outfits are allowed to run their little drone wars, this of course could never happen.

ban zerg guilds, it can, and would.

lvl 29 currently. leveling slooooowly because........ what is rush? I am always up for cc, anywhere, as long as the group is not trying to use a monk for a tank or ranger for heals or some nonsense. You know. Basic good gameplay, I'm a happy chanter.

why are you commenting on this thread when your raid experience here is reading the forums?

[uygi]

So Trak is up, has been up for over an hour, and TMO and FE pretty much all dead and having a hard time getting bodies. WTB some small guild to kill the dragon so we can all CR!

[falkun]

not BDA prime-time, and half our guild-force is red. GOGO Divinity or Taken or TMO's alt-force.

[Lagaidh]

This thread has taught me two things:

One, I am so very glad the Rathe had a rotation for a majority of its lifetime. There was still a lot of drama and hate for the top guild.

Two, I guess I'm glad that I didn't join an uber guild until after Lost Dungeons of Norrath released in live. I was blissfully unaware of and unconcerned with the topic of the end game until many game-mechanic pressures had been lifted to a degree. (It seemed so, I could be way off.)

Having played here for 5 months shy of three years... a lot of the views I had about live have been refined. Some have completely changed.

I know one thing: this thread has been incredibly civil. I appreciate that much quite a bit.

[Oompaa]

So Trak is up, has been up for over an hour, and TMO and FE pretty much all dead and having a hard time getting bodies. WTB some small guild to kill the dragon so we can all CR!

Unfortunately, 8am means being at work and/or class for the majority of people. A small guild will never have the numbers in the morning hours of a weekday.

[Llodd]

small guilds on live rarely got targets as well, what's your point? Again seems like you just want loot/pixels without having to do anything.

Small guilds on live did get targets. Mainly because the mechanics were different (read patch days for starters)

It's an emulation of a 13 year old game. Is it too much to ask that the top guilds would allow the smaller ones once in a blue moon to gain access to some raid targets?

Why are you so anti this? What is it with you ?