Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[Tiddlywinks]

There are no longer FTE snipes thanks to FTE shout! kiting can be frapsed and is punished... training as well.

This guy.. LOL

[Wotsirb401]

I wish eveyone would stop trying to convince the GM's and Guides to change the server. They created this server for people to enjoy the old school classice everquest and they have gotten it pretty darn close. It is up to us as players to create rotations and help each other out. Always remember, what would you be doing if this server didnt exist? You would likely be playing another server and complaining there or paying $15/month to play another MMO. Enjoy your time !

[Tecmos Deception]

The bolded part is why the analogy doesn't work. The only thing similar to each other in this example is the amount of time put in. Olympians put in more time still and they're not sitting on their asses playing a video game doing it.

Dude. Go read the dictionary defintion of analogy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy

similarity, especially in a limited scope

[finalgrunt]

I wish eveyone would stop trying to convince the GM's and Guides to change the server. They created this server for people to enjoy the old school classice everquest and they have gotten it pretty darn close. It is up to us as players to create rotations and help each other out. Always remember, what would you be doing if this server didnt exist? You would likely be playing another server and complaining there or paying $15/month to play another MMO. Enjoy your time !

Well I'm all for creating rotations. Trust me, I tried. But those monopolising current content don't agree with it. In their mindset, one has got ot fully commit to the game like they're willing to do to have a claim at the targets. Top guild doesn't want to change. Staff doesn't want to enforce anything. In short this is a catch 22 situation.

I only asked for one week worth of a subset of mobs to be left to other guilds every 9-10 weeks or so, but even this was declined.

[Wotsirb401]

I agree! I enjoy raiding but counting on me waking up at 12-6am for a trak fight that we might not even get is def not worth losing quality sleep over

[Ravager]

Dude. Go read the dictionary defintion of analogy: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy

similarity, especially in a limited scope

Alright, in that limited capacity, I'll concede it is an analogy. I won't concede that it's a good one.

I said it was comical and you're arguing it's not. You don't think it's funny to compare someone who sits on their ass at a computer playing a video game to someone who trains for 10+ hours a day?

When you took that screenshot of 1,000,000 plat on your curser, would you say you put more or less work into attaining that than a gold medal sprinter? Or even a bronze medal sprinter? Do you think you felt the same satisfaction as they did? Do you believe you could stand shoulder to shoulder with them and honestly tell yourself that both accomplishments were similar and both means to both ends were similiar?

[Nirgon]

How would you feel with a million plat?

Lot of people who stop crying if they had it. Nuff sayed.

[Alarti0001]

How would you feel with a million plat?

Lot of people who stop crying if they had it. Nuff sayed.

Nirgon has stumbled on a solution. Give all the casuals who complain about raiding but want to put in 0 effort, 1 million plat. Then they can fill TMO's guild bank.

Problem Solved.

[Nirgon]

By George, we've done it!

[Ravager]

How would you feel with a million plat?

Lot of people who stop crying if they had it. Nuff sayed.

I wouldn't feel one way or another with a million plat. I'd rather loot my gear. If I wanted a million plat, I'd sit in ec all day and have it in 10 weeks. I hate EC. I'd rather play the game.

[gotrocks]

Problem Solved.

[Nirgon]

Let's be honest this thread boils down to "we're not getting mobs" so its "nothing like classic"

I couldn't disagree more unless you guys were in top raiding guilds on your servers during classic-Velious.

Now.. if you were in the PoP era (most people here I think are)... I can see why not getting Kunark/Velious mobs for you doesn't feel "classic".

[Alarti0001]

Let's be honest this thread boils down to "we're not getting mobs" so its "nothing like classic"

I couldn't disagree more unless you guys were in top raiding guilds on your servers during classic-Velious.

Now.. if you were in the PoP era (most people here I think are)... I can see why not getting Kunark/Velious mobs for you doesn't feel "classic".

qft

[Tecmos Deception]

Alright, in that limited capacity, I'll concede it is an analogy. I won't concede that it's a good one.

I said it was comical and you're arguing it's not. You don't think it's funny to compare someone who sits on their ass at a computer playing a video game to someone who trains for 10+ hours a day?

When you took that screenshot of 1,000,000 plat on your curser, would you say you put more or less work into attaining that than a gold medal sprinter? Or even a bronze medal sprinter? Do you think you felt the same satisfaction as they did? Do you believe you could stand shoulder to shoulder with them and honestly tell yourself that both accomplishments were similar and both means to both ends were similiar?

Like I said before, you aren't staying focused on what started this discussion between us. You keep slipping into this overall comparison that isn't relevant because no one used the analogy that "a p99 raider is as awesome as a gold-medal athlete in every way."

[Ravager]

Like I said before, you aren't staying focused on what started this discussion between us. You keep slipping into this overall comparison that isn't relevant because no one used the analogy that "a p99 raider is as awesome as a gold-medal athlete in every way."

No, I just said the comparison is comical. Which it is.

[Tecmos Deception]

No, I just said the comparison is comical. Which it is.

You only think it is comical because you don't understand what was actually being said.


Tecmos: a candle is like the sun; they both emit light.

Ravager: that's funny! They're nothing alike! One is an enormous sphere of unimaginably hot gas that is in a perpetual state of nuclear fusion, the light of which can be seen trillions of miles away and whose life is measured in billions of years. But a candle is just a little flicker of fire that will burn out in a few hours unless a 5 mph breeze kicks up, in which case it will blow out even sooner!

Tecmos: dude. I didn't say "a candle is exactly like the sun," so why are you talking about how a candle is not exactly like the sun?

Ravager: COMICAL!!! THIS GUY THINKS THE SUN AND A CANDLE ARE THE SAME!!!

[Tecmos Deception]

Let's be honest this thread boils down to "we're not getting mobs" so its "nothing like classic"

I couldn't disagree more unless you guys were in top raiding guilds on your servers during classic-Velious.

Now.. if you were in the PoP era (most people here I think are)... I can see why not getting Kunark/Velious mobs for you doesn't feel "classic".

But on topic, yeah. This.

[Nirgon]

For those of you who aren't able to devote the "on call" and "anything goes" play time to the raiding scene here... (and imagine that! and single, successful PvE server attracting so many greats of old having a godmode competitive raid scene..) I suggest you discover other things that made EQ great. Imagine if there were only 2 or 3 live servers... and all the skilled players were lumped onto them.

For instance? The solo artist challenge. Leveling and succeeding playing an odd race/class combo. Creating a group that regularly clears some odd dungeon and suddenly turning it into a favorite place to group for the community. Being a server personality known for some running gag etc.

I think people who compete in the solo artist challenge and compare notes, contribute to making the server more classic in the bugs section or play in an all Iksar guild are the real winners here. Stop making a leisure activity a job or setting ridiculous expectations and getting frustrated when you can't meet them.

I'd also stop challenging TMO and talking about destroying them. That is absolutely nuts. Try making friends with them, joining xp groups with their ridiculously strong alts (Jeremy runs some AoE chardok on Thursday iirc) and maybe getting into talks about them letting you have a different raid mob every other week.

For instance, despite what anyone in TMO probably says or thinks scattered across members, they are going to be primarily a Giant faction guild... like it or not to start and for quite some time. I'd suggest your guilds trying to be the best dragon faction guild and playing at sane and leisurely hours in Velious. If it's about loot... check out the halls of testing quests or compare dragon faction armor per slot vs kael per slot. Hell, you can be the plane of mischief farm guild too. PoM armor was droppable for several months from Velious release too :P.

If your collective intentions are "we're going to wake the sleeper / start taking every Phara Dar" and destroy TMO/the server... you need to get your head examined. You (collectively) in 99.9% of cases on live did not have 3-4 phara dar loots, you don't *deserve* them and the game *is* fun without them... if you don't play it like a meth addicted pixel head.

Hard concepts!

[Strifer]

Being a server personality

If I had more time, I'd love to be actually raiding and stuff other than trolling RnF. I can't though so this works.

[Ravager]

You only think it is comical because you don't understand what was actually being said.


Tecmos: a candle is like the sun; they both emit light.

Ravager: that's funny! They're nothing alike! One is an enormous sphere of unimaginably hot gas that is in a perpetual state of nuclear fusion, the light of which can be seen trillions of miles away and whose life is measured in billions of years. But a candle is just a little flicker of fire that will burn out in a few hours unless a 5 mph breeze kicks up, in which case it will blow out even sooner!

Tecmos: dude. I didn't say "a candle is exactly like the sun," so why are you talking about how a candle is not exactly like the sun?

Ravager: COMICAL!!! THIS GUY THINKS THE SUN AND A CANDLE ARE THE SAME!!!

I think it's comical because I know exactly what is being said. The analogy compares the dedication of a P99 raider to the dedication of an olympian. To say that the dedication to drop everything your doing at any given moment in the day to play a video game is the same as the dedication it takes to be the best in a real sport of any sort is just plain stupid.

Besides, what's it to you what I find funny?

[W8Gamer]

I understand your point, but I think we're really talking about 2 seperate things.

However, in regards to the fact that you feel they don't have an advantage over an up and coming guild I'm really confused. TMO got it's foot in VP early, only IB had the same advantage that they were given, and IB quit playing on the server, so guilds such as FE have almost no way of accessing the zone given the current rules.

It's much harder to pull of a successful assault than it is to mount a defense, and all TMO needs to do, given the rules of the server, is hold on and defend VP to maintain their advantage.

Personally I think the rules at the time had a direct affect on giving TMO this advantage, because they were literally GIVEN a rotation for their first cracks at VP. Nobody in FE or any other guild wanting to attempt to challenge TMO for mobs in the zone can say they were offered the same. The fact FE ever killed anything in there is insanely impressive.

Of course TMO has to play by the same rules as everyone else, I don't think that's the issue being discussed. The issue is that given the current non-classic rules, actual competition has been all but stifled, and almost nobody else wanting to raid or see the zone is having any fun.

Now we can argue all day about whether THAT is classic or not (it was imo) but the point is here it's only due to non-classic rules, whereas on live it actually came down to player/guild skill and knowledge. Barriers that simply don't exist for the majority of players on this server.

I never said TMO doesn't have an advantage. Of course they have an advantage. I'm saying they don't have an unfair advantage. Just because things worked out in their favor doesn't mean it's "unfair". That's like if a guy who's been sitting at a poker table for 4 hours manages to rack up $10,000 in chips and then I come sit at the table with my measly $500. Does the other guy have an advantage? Damn right he does. Is his advantage unfair? Nope. He got here first. He's been running the table longer than I have. Therefore I have an uphill battle. It'll be hard to overcome, but it's not impossible. Now substitute the table for p99 raid scene and substitute chips for raid loot. TMO been running the table longer than anyone else. So, whoever sits at the table is going to be at a disadvantage, but that doesn't make it unfair and that doesn't mean TMO is unbeatable.

FE has already beaten TMO in VP before. As miraculous as that may seem, it doesn't take away from the fact that it happened. That is all the proof you need that TMO can be beat in VP under the current rule set. Same goes with any other target. TMO loses targets all the time. Granted for every 1 they lose, they probably win 3, but that doesn't take away from the fact that TMO can and has been beaten. It's just about how strong is your will and determination to beat them.

Now, I already know you're going to bring up the whole shady business that happened with Amelinda. IF that's how it went down, then yes, TMO got an unfair advantage in the raid scene. However, I was not on the server when it happened so I can't comment on it. At the same, Autotune says that it DIDN'T go down like that. So, we are stuck at a he said she said dilemma. Unless you can prove that the cheating went down the way you said, it's pretty much a moot point, because regardless of what went down then, has nothing to do with people claiming the current rules need to be changed now. I mean, lets says that whole scenario never happened. What then? Who fucking knows?! There is no way to speculate what would have happened. TMO might have still beat out IB. IB might have beat out TMO. The only difference is everyone would be bitching about IB hogging all the loots, but still demanding the raid scene be fixed when it isn't even broken.

[Tiddlywinks]

Let's be honest this thread boils down to "we're not getting mobs" so its "nothing like classic"

I couldn't disagree more unless you guys were in top raiding guilds on your servers during classic-Velious.

Now.. if you were in the PoP era (most people here I think are)... I can see why not getting Kunark/Velious mobs for you doesn't feel "classic".

Umm.. live did not have mob variances, sanctioned VP training, broken Ivaynders Hoops, and broken resist systems just to name a few.

I think there is quite a lot of things on this server that are "nothing like classic", some implemented intentionally.

[Tiddlywinks]

I never said TMO doesn't have an advantage. Of course they have an advantage. I'm saying they don't have an unfair advantage. Just because things worked out in their favor doesn't mean it's "unfair". That's like if a guy who's been sitting at a poker table for 4 hours manages to rack up $10,000 in chips and then I come sit at the table with my measly $500. Does the other guy have an advantage? Damn right he does. Is his advantage unfair? Nope. He got here first. He's been running the table longer than I have. Therefore I have an uphill battle. It'll be hard to overcome, but it's not impossible. Now substitute the table for p99 raid scene and substitute chips for raid loot. TMO been running the table longer than anyone else. So, whoever sits at the table is going to be at a disadvantage, but that doesn't make it unfair and that doesn't mean TMO is unbeatable.

FE has already beaten TMO in VP before. As miraculous as that may seem, it doesn't take away from the fact that it happened. That is all the proof you need that TMO can be beat in VP under the current rule set. Same goes with any other target. TMO loses targets all the time. Granted for every 1 they lose, they probably win 3, but that doesn't take away from the fact that TMO can and has been beaten. It's just about how strong is your will and determination to beat them.

Now, I already know you're going to bring up the whole shady business that happened with Amelinda. IF that's how it went down, then yes, TMO got an unfair advantage in the raid scene. However, I was not on the server when it happened so I can't comment on it. At the same, Autotune says that it DIDN'T go down like that. So, we are stuck at a he said she said dilemma. Unless you can prove that the cheating went down the way you said, it's pretty much a moot point, because regardless of what went down then, has nothing to do with people claiming the current rules need to be changed now. I mean, lets says that whole scenario never happened. What then? Who fucking knows?! There is no way to speculate what would have happened. TMO might have still beat out IB. IB might have beat out TMO. The only difference is everyone would be bitching about IB hogging all the loots, but still demanding the raid scene be fixed when it isn't even broken.

Your poker analogy doesn't work. The rules then, were not the same as the rules now. Rules are fluid and change over time. For a better analogy, the guy who's been at the table the longest had been given a +2500 chip bonus when he sat down at the table. By the time you sat down that chip bonus no longer applied, so you have to build yours from scratch, the hard way. That's not "fair" to you.

To your second point, I agree it might be IB who won out and they might be the ones training people out of VP. At some point in the future it may very well FE who are the ones doing it. It's not wrong simply because it's TMO who's doing it and they have an advantage because they've been doing it for so long, it's wrong because TRAINING A ZONE, NERFING IVAYNDERS HOOPS, HAVING 4 DAY VARIANCES ARE NOT CLASSIC EVERQUEST.

If it's not a real attempt to create a classic EverQuest server than fine. Let's just admit it up-front at least and not try to hide behind all of the bullshit rules and changes we've created in an attempt to "create a classic atmosphere". It's a farce.

[Tiddlywinks]

For the record, I don't think anyone is saying beating TMO in VP or elsewhere or doing whatever is impossible, I think they're saying it's bullshit the way it's intentionally different from the way it was in classic.

That's my point at least.

[Tecmos Deception]

I think it's comical because I know exactly what is being said. The analogy compares the dedication of a P99 raider to the dedication of an olympian. To say that the dedication to drop everything your doing at any given moment in the day to play a video game is the same as the dedication it takes to be the best in a real sport of any sort is just plain stupid.

You just don't get it dude.

Comparing two things =/= saying two things are the exact same. Analogizing two things =/= saying two things are the exact same. Comparing/analogizing is calling attention to the similarities between things that may otherwise be very different.


Would you call the Olympian that works out for an hour more than the rest of the competition every day greedy or immoral? He went the extra mile.

. . .

One could argue that's what TMO or any top guild is doing. They are going that extra mile to achieve their goal.

He isn't saying that the work TMO does to kill stuff is as difficult/challenging/taxing/meaningful as the work an olympian does to win a medal. He is saying that just like an Olympian who works harder than his competition wins the gold, so too is TMO working harder than its competition and therefore getting to kill the mobs.

[Ravager]

By the way, I think your analogy to the analogy is spot on and a good example of why it's a poor analogy. You'd never describe the sun as a candle in anything other than an abstract concept, like poetry, or in an argument such as this to make a lousy point. My point is it's a comical analogy, because even the similar things being compared are so disparate.

[Autotune]

For those of you who aren't able to devote the "on call" and "anything goes" play time to the raiding scene here... (and imagine that! and single, successful PvE server attracting so many greats of old having a godmode competitive raid scene..) I suggest you discover other things that made EQ great. Imagine if there were only 2 or 3 live servers... and all the skilled players were lumped onto them.

For instance? The solo artist challenge. Leveling and succeeding playing an odd race/class combo. Creating a group that regularly clears some odd dungeon and suddenly turning it into a favorite place to group for the community. Being a server personality known for some running gag etc.

I think people who compete in the solo artist challenge and compare notes, contribute to making the server more classic in the bugs section or play in an all Iksar guild are the real winners here. Stop making a leisure activity a job or setting ridiculous expectations and getting frustrated when you can't meet them.

I'd also stop challenging TMO and talking about destroying them. That is absolutely nuts. Try making friends with them, joining xp groups with their ridiculously strong alts (Jeremy runs some AoE chardok on Thursday iirc) and maybe getting into talks about them letting you have a different raid mob every other week.

For instance, despite what anyone in TMO probably says or thinks scattered across members, they are going to be primarily a Giant faction guild... like it or not to start and for quite some time. I'd suggest your guilds trying to be the best dragon faction guild and playing at sane and leisurely hours in Velious. If it's about loot... check out the halls of testing quests or compare dragon faction armor per slot vs kael per slot. Hell, you can be the plane of mischief farm guild too. PoM armor was droppable for several months from Velious release too :P.

If your collective intentions are "we're going to wake the sleeper / start taking every Phara Dar" and destroy TMO/the server... you need to get your head examined. You (collectively) in 99.9% of cases on live did not have 3-4 phara dar loots, you don't *deserve* them and the game *is* fun without them... if you don't play it like a meth addicted pixel head.

Hard concepts!

Nirgon wins!

[Raavak]

All this monopoly crap on a day that Forceful Entry got Trakanon over TMO. Seems really irrelevant.

[Ravager]

The problem isn't that the rest of the server wants everything, it's that TMO does.

[Autotune]

The problem isn't that the rest of the server wants everything, it's that TMO does.

Why is that a problem?

[Raavak]

So if Tasselhoff and FE had the upper hand, they would dole out mobs to other people? Get serious.

People just rooting for the underdog and hoping the king is toppled. Ain't gunna happen.

[W8Gamer]

Your poker analogy doesn't work. The rules then, were not the same as the rules now. Rules are fluid and change over time. For a better analogy, the guy who's been at the table the longest had been given a +2500 chip bonus when he sat down at the table. By the time you sat down that chip bonus no longer applied, so you have to build yours from scratch, the hard way. That's not "fair" to you.

To your second point, I agree it might be IB who won out and they might be the ones training people out of VP. At some point in the future it may very well FE who are the ones doing it. It's not wrong simply because it's TMO who's doing it and they have an advantage because they've been doing it for so long, it's wrong because TRAINING A ZONE, NERFING IVAYNDERS HOOPS, HAVING 4 DAY VARIANCES ARE NOT CLASSIC EVERQUEST.

If it's not a real attempt to create a classic EverQuest server than fine. Let's just admit it up-front at least and not try to hide behind all of the bullshit rules and changes we've created in an attempt to "create a classic atmosphere". It's a farce.

As I've said, the training rules in VP have nothing to do with what was classic in VP. The GMs have already stated that was the case. So, they have been up front about that. They haven't been hiding behind anything. They've already stated that rules were put in place for reasons that have nothing to do with classic. They've also said they won't comment on it anymore because they've already stated this multiple times.

Now, as far as the rules, I think this is where there is the gap in our understanding. I've been assuming the rules were the same then as they are now. As I've already stated, I wasn't playing during that time. So, please clarify what were the different rules back then that would be equivalent to the +$2500 for sitting at the table as your analogy stated? If I missed it in your previous posts, I apologize.

[Nirgon]

I've never been a fan of variance. I think it should go away in Velious really.

[Ravager]

I've never been a fan of variance. I think it should go away in Velious really.

I think virtually everyone agrees with this statement.

[finalgrunt]

So if Tasselhoff and FE had the upper hand, they would dole out mobs to other people? Get serious.

People just rooting for the underdog and hoping the king is toppled. Ain't gunna happen.

When I was with discussion with FE, they actually agreed with a subset of mobs left for the rest of the server every X weeks (which would mean a tier 2 competition window for smaller / more casual people guilds). But TMO never agreed to it, that's a fact.

I mean, your guild is very good at what it does, there is no denying in it. So you pretty much do what you want with such crushing power, it's your business. But don't deny either that greed is fueling the need for a monopoly more than anything else (a guild bank with 10+ millions pp doesn't back up claims of dire needs). Let's not add hypocrisy to such discussions ;)

As for not willing to track all targets 24/7 because of unclassic variance, that doesn't equal to 0 effort. Giving the opportunity to smaller guilds to compete at their levels would still require some sort of tracking, and a race to boot (yeah, good old races vs camping raid forces at a target feet ^^). But as I said, those on top don't want to consider anything which doesn't come close to what they're putting. Anyway, there are other games to play too. I personally won't be losing sleep over the fact that the top guild won't share even a tiny part of raid targets. But I will take no part of it either.

[Ravager]

Why is that a problem?

I didn't say everyone else wanted nothing.

[Raavak]

I didn't say everyone else wanted nothing.That's not your choice. Lol.

Hey, do something about it other than Forumquest!

[Tiddlywinks]

As I've said, the training rules in VP have nothing to do with what was classic in VP. The GMs have already stated that was the case. So, they have been up front about that. They haven't been hiding behind anything. They've already stated that rules were put in place for reasons that have nothing to do with classic. They've also said they won't comment on it anymore because they've already stated this multiple times.

Now, as far as the rules, I think this is where there is the gap in our understanding. I've been assuming the rules were the same then as they are now. As I've already stated, I wasn't playing during that time. So, please clarify what were the different rules back then that would be equivalent to the +$2500 for sitting at the table as your analogy stated? If I missed it in your previous posts, I apologize.

VP was a forced rotation. That's where the +$2500 for sitting at the table came from. Guilds like FE can't even log in and look around and mess around inside of VP, whereas TMO had the entire zone to mess around with and learn. The rotation was supposed to last only the first night, yet it lasted for at least a month I think (my memory is foggy). It was later resumed and there was even more time to learn the zone.

FTE and raiding petitions were also WAY different back then. Let's ignore for now that the lead-gm at the time was corrupt, shady, and dating a member of TMO and just look at the tools at GM disposal. There were no FTE shouts. The 15-man on spawnpoint poopsock rule ended up costing TMO at least one mob. VS could be pulled to KC entrance.

I could go on and on and on. Things change, there is a lot that is different rule wise, and content wise between now and 2 years ago. The reason I highlight that is because, with the training in VP rule being what it is, up and coming guilds like FE that want to raid VP aren't given the same +$2500 for sitting at the table that TMO and IB had. They don't get to play around in the zone for a month and get loot before deciding to train each other. Most guilds know that if they step foot in there they are going to be immediately trained, so they don't bother.

Ignoring what's "fair" for a second, let's not forget the main point and premise I have for being in this thread, and it's in the thread title: Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic. Now while only a fool would think the experience would be identical due to the game having been out for 14 years and various fixes and unintentional non-classic features existing, the fact that people have intentionally changed the raiding scene by deviating from what is classic everquest is bs imo, no matter what reasons they were for.

Sadly most people don't seem to agree with that, and if variance and nerfing ivandyrs hoops make it so that the raid scene is more competitive than the alternative of having a bunch of people sit on a spawn point spamming target so that they can hoop it down and the first group to get exp wins the encounter then they are all for creating variance and nerfing ivandyrs hoops. Similarly if they think that allowing training to occur in end-zones is a good idea because then they don't have to deal with the same number of petitions, or because it artificially leaves only the most dedicated guild to monopolize the content as happened on live when so many others could be in there doing it (not typically the case on live) then whatever.

But let's get one thing straight, that's not classic EverQuest.

When it's done INTENTIONALLY then I think it's very sad for those who want nothing more than to play on a server that is a recreation of this game during it's early years.

Shit has got nothing to do with TMO, or anyone else.

[Ravager]

That's not your choice. Lol.

Hey, do something about it other than Forumquest!

Putting in my app to TMO now.

[Tiddlywinks]

I've never been a fan of variance. I think it should go away in Velious really.

Should have never existed outside of where it did on live servers between 1999-2002

[Autotune]

I didn't say everyone else wanted nothing.

Everyone wants everything, so what is the problem. You can't always get what you want.

[Tiddlywinks]

Everyone wants everything, so what is the problem. You can't always get what you want.

This is not true. I for one do not want a lot of things. I could live fine without a tumor, a small penis, AIDs, a squirrel, a pink pen just to name a few.

In fact if I got any of those things, I would almost certainly try to get rid of them as soon as possible.

Except maybe the squirrel cause idk they're kinda cute

[Autotune]

This is not true. I for one do not want a lot of things. I could live fine without a tumor, a small penis, AIDs, a squirrel, a pink pen just to name a few.

In fact if I got any of those things, I would almost certainly try to get rid of them as soon as possible.

Except maybe the squirrel cause idk they're kinda cute

You can't always get what you want.

Wanting to not have something is the same as wanting something. You want good health... well...

[Atmas]

When I was with discussion with FE, they actually agreed with a subset of mobs left for the rest of the server every X weeks (which would mean a tier 2 competition window for smaller / more casual people guilds). But TMO never agreed to it, that's a fact.

I mean, your guild is very good at what it does, there is no denying in it. So you pretty much do what you want with such crushing power, it's your business. But don't deny either that greed is fueling the need for a monopoly more than anything else (a guild bank with 10+ millions pp doesn't back up claims of dire needs). Let's not add hypocrisy to such discussions ;)

As for not willing to track all targets 24/7 because of unclassic variance, that doesn't equal to 0 effort. Giving the opportunity to smaller guilds to compete at their levels would still require some sort of tracking, and a race to boot (yeah, good old races vs camping raid forces at a target feet ^^). But as I said, those on top don't want to consider anything which doesn't come close to what they're putting. Anyway, there are other games to play too. I personally won't be losing sleep over the fact that the top guild won't share even a tiny part of raid targets. But I will take no part of it either.

A lot of people talk about what they would do if things were different so I wouldn't assume FE is some benevolent force just because they say they would be.

If tracking all targets seems like too much, how about tracking just one at a time?

[Tiddlywinks]

You can't always get what you want.

Wanting to not have something is the same as wanting something. You want good health... well...

....

[Autotune]

....

You can't always get what you want.

[Tiddlywinks]

Sometimes I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of being argumentative, or trolling for kicks.

So you're saying that by someone not wanting something, they are therefore wanting to NOT have it, and thus want something?

Great logic there.


Anyway, you said that everyone wants everything. That is clearly not true. AIDS is a thing. I don't want it. Wanting to not have adds doesn't somehow equate to negating this fact. AIDS is still something, and I still do not want it.

Therefore your statement "Everyone wants everything" is proven incorrect.

QED

[Tiddlywinks]

Can we get back to discussing how non-classic features are ruining peoples immersion? I feel like we can get at least another 25 or so pages out of this thread. It doesn't have quite the same potential as the poll posted by Tasslehoff, but it's got something!

[Nirgon]

When shit has been on perma farm for so long, I can see why variance was added. Moreso, with so many raid skilled players on a single server and so few targets in classic-Kunark, we should be able to see why it became necessary.....


until FTE shouts were implemented!

[Autotune]

Sometimes I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of being argumentative, or trolling for kicks.

So you're saying that by someone not wanting something, they are therefore wanting to NOT have it, and thus want something?

Great logic there.


Anyway, you said that everyone wants everything. That is clearly not true. AIDS is a thing. I don't want it. Wanting to not have adds doesn't somehow equate to negating this fact. AIDS is still something, and I still do not want it.

Therefore your statement "Everyone wants everything" is proven incorrect.

QED

You make posts like this and the ones before and you expect me to take you serious and give you serious replies? Not happening.

[Autotune]

When shit has been on perma farm for so long, I can see why variance was added. Moreso, with so many raid skilled players on a single server and so few targets in classic-Kunark, we should be able to see why it became necessary.....


until FTE shouts were implemented!

Poopsocking is the reason variance was added. Poopsocking is the reason Variance was adjusted to go longer.

[Tasslehofp99]

Poopsocking is the reason variance was added. Poopsocking is the reason Variance was adjusted to go longer.

I highly doubt that this is the ultimate reason variance was added, if anything it was most likely added due to the length of time the timeline has been extended. Removal of variance to me is a hit or miss fix for the raid scene, especially prior to velious. I think if you removed training from VP now and had regular server repops (every 3-4 weeks) those two things alone would do a lot to help the current raiding scene, especially prior to velious release.

[W8Gamer]

VP was a forced rotation. That's where the +$2500 for sitting at the table came from. Guilds like FE can't even log in and look around and mess around inside of VP, whereas TMO had the entire zone to mess around with and learn. The rotation was supposed to last only the first night, yet it lasted for at least a month I think (my memory is foggy). It was later resumed and there was even more time to learn the zone.

FTE and raiding petitions were also WAY different back then. Let's ignore for now that the lead-gm at the time was corrupt, shady, and dating a member of TMO and just look at the tools at GM disposal. There were no FTE shouts. The 15-man on spawnpoint poopsock rule ended up costing TMO at least one mob. VS could be pulled to KC entrance.

I could go on and on and on. Things change, there is a lot that is different rule wise, and content wise between now and 2 years ago. The reason I highlight that is because, with the training in VP rule being what it is, up and coming guilds like FE that want to raid VP aren't given the same +$2500 for sitting at the table that TMO and IB had. They don't get to play around in the zone for a month and get loot before deciding to train each other. Most guilds know that if they step foot in there they are going to be immediately trained, so they don't bother.

Ignoring what's "fair" for a second, let's not forget the main point and premise I have for being in this thread, and it's in the thread title: Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic. Now while only a fool would think the experience would be identical due to the game having been out for 14 years and various fixes and unintentional non-classic features existing, the fact that people have intentionally changed the raiding scene by deviating from what is classic everquest is bs imo, no matter what reasons they were for.

Sadly most people don't seem to agree with that, and if variance and nerfing ivandyrs hoops make it so that the raid scene is more competitive than the alternative of having a bunch of people sit on a spawn point spamming target so that they can hoop it down and the first group to get exp wins the encounter then they are all for creating variance and nerfing ivandyrs hoops. Similarly if they think that allowing training to occur in end-zones is a good idea because then they don't have to deal with the same number of petitions, or because it artificially leaves only the most dedicated guild to monopolize the content as happened on live when so many others could be in there doing it (not typically the case on live) then whatever.

But let's get one thing straight, that's not classic EverQuest.

When it's done INTENTIONALLY then I think it's very sad for those who want nothing more than to play on a server that is a recreation of this game during it's early years.

Shit has got nothing to do with TMO, or anyone else.

I see. Ok, now I can understand the sense of "unfairness" and can see where you are coming from, but I also can't fully agree with that it's necessarily "unfair". Just because someone got something you didn't doesn't always make it "unfair" and suggesting otherwise just sounds like you're expecting a hand out. Some kid that inherited his father's fortune without doing anything to earn it doesn't make it unfair to me. It sucks and I wish I could be as fortunate as him, but things didn't work out for me. So, to stick to the poker analogy, I think it'd be appropriate to explain it like this: When the guy sat down at the table 4 hours ago, someone came to me and said, "hey, if you sit down at the table now they are giving a +2500 chip bonus" and I replied, "Oh sweet! Well let me try and put together $500 bucks so I can go get it a seat". Well, by the time it takes me to acquire that much money, the bonus is gone. They're no longer giving it out for whatever the reason. Who's fault is that? The guys running the rules of table? The guy who sat down and took advantage of the bonus? Or me? It's my own fault, whether or not I could help the circumstances, it's my own fault that I didn't get to the table in time to cash in on the bonus.

So, TMO and IB played the game right. Whether they planned ahead to get that seat at the table as soon as they did, or whether or not luck just favored them, they got to the table at just right the time. If your guild didn't, well that's your own fault. After a while the GM's decided that the chip bonus was no longer feasible and did away with it. It's not fair or unfair. It's just the way the way game panned out. Truthfully we can go back and forth on this, with analogy after analogy. I think it's best we just agree to disagree.

As far as the current raid scene not being classic EQ, I don't disagree there. Of course it's not classic, but for me I will say it's pretty close. That's my personal experience though and everyone's will be different. For me, training and variance aren't classic, no. I don't remember any of that, but you know what else I don't remember? I don't remember seeing EVEN CLOSE to the amount of epics on my server during the kunark era as I do on p99. Nor I do remember seeing more than 1 guild sporting epics. First epic I ever saw was the necro epic and it was under a Recon guild tag. I didn't see my next epic for WEEKS and when I did, it was another recon guild tag.

I keep hearing everyone talk about how they remember these rotations on their server. Well, we had rotations on E`ci as well. I remember a guy named Fhaldark used to lead public Hate raids every Thursday night. And there was a website with a calender you could go to see what raids were when and who had what slots. I also remember, that this was late in the Velious era. There was no rotation in the Kunark era. Recon dominated the raid scene (for the US time zone at least). And all these rotations and hearing other guilds tackle these raid targets in the planes and kunark didn't start happening until post Velious, post Luclin, post PoP. That's how I remember it, but even so, someone else who was on the same server might not remember the same way I do, because it all boils down to personal experience. I think people forget that we are STILL in the Kunark era and when you compare to classic, you need to stay within that era, not the timeline. If you're comparing P99 to the live timeline, you are WAY off. As long as p99 has been running, I'm pretty sure we would be in PoP right now. So, we can at least agree on the fact that no, p99 raiding is not exactly the same as live raiding, but if that's what you were expecting when you joined this server (for it to be EXACTLY like live) you set yourself up to be let down a long time. As far as comparing what the raid scene was like during the Kunark era on live and on p99, for me it doesn't seem to far in the regards that one guild did dominate the content.

In closing, I just want to refer back to my original argument and why I even brought it up. The premise of this thread is that "p99 raiding is not classic". However, it got derailed when people started screaming the rules needed to be changed. That the current rules weren't fair and catered to 1 guild. My argument is that, that is just not true. There is nothing wrong with current rules regardless of what the rules were a year ago, and whether or not they are classic. Yes the rules are different. No, the rules are not classic (some for reasons that have NOTHING to do with classic), but to state the rules are unfair, and cater to 1 group is just simply not true at all. Anyone is capable of tackling whoever the top guild is within the current rule set. It won't be easy and expect an uphill battle, but As I've said over and over again, how dedicated and determined you are is the deciding factor in whether or not you come out on top. Not a change in the rules.

[Autotune]

I highly doubt that this is the ultimate reason variance was added, if anything it was most likely added due to the length of time the timeline has been extended. Removal of variance to me is a hit or miss fix for the raid scene, especially prior to velious. I think if you removed training from VP now and had regular server repops (every 3-4 weeks) those two things alone would do a lot to help the current raiding scene, especially prior to velious release.

Poopsocking is the reason variance was added. Poopsocking is the reason Variance was adjusted to go longer.

[Tasslehofp99]

I mean, Poopsocking was a stratedgy employed by many guilds on the more popular live servers.

I highly doubt that the dev's added variance with their main consideration being that it would prevent poopsocking. In essence, it does nothing to prevent poopsocking. If people are determined enough to kill a mob, they will still sit on/near it's spawn.

I think that a more logical explanation of why variance was added would be that Classic/kunark lasted ALOT longer on p99 than they did on live. Which leads to oversaturation of the server with high end items/loot/plat/etc, and would make velious far too trivial compared to what it should be on release. In otherwords, the variance was put in as a counter to the fact that our timeline is quite extended.


Autotune -- Do you have any proof that variance was added to prevent poopsocking or are you just assuming that?

[Morgander]

Any solution must ostensibly fit within the "classic" guidelines the server has established. Such solutions must either be perfectly classic or meant to address a non-classic problem so as to enable a "more classic" environment. Forced rotations and such have been categorically rejected by the developers as a potential solution. Increasing the variance won't help much, if at all. Socking will always exist to some extent or another, and the best you can hope to do is mitigate it to varying extents. For example, mobs no longer have a set "window closing" and this has drastically cut down on active socking, but it has not eliminated it.

One thing from a developmental point of view that I do not believe many people realize is that EQ is an old game, developmentally.

Keep in mind that the answer to player abuse and domination of contested content was the superficial addition of "instancing". EQ did not choose not to use instancing, instancing wasn't even invented yet.

I don't know of a single game these days that doesn't use instancing for the majority of its content, or at least the majority of its worth-while content (being anything that's considered of worth to the general populace).

Utilizing the systems that were developed originally with EQ, rules had to be constructed to ensure they weren't abused. It's the difference between not allowing individuals to carry firearms at all, or just instilling rules and regulations on how they can be used legally.

Granted no rule is ever perfect.

But this is in many ways a focal point to the discussion. You can't really have a classic experience without a very large and dedicated GM/Guide program (which we do not have). P1999's staff just isn't big enough to police the system for everything, even with rules in place, so some things would need to be policed digitally via the code (which is very feasible mind you), and was one of my suggestions.

I still have not read a reasonable argument for the disuse of a rotation. Every argument I've read has been either an argument wrought of fear of not getting more loot, or an argument that might even have a firm basis, but of which even I seem capable of thinking up half a dozen things that could be done to quell the arguments that line that basis.

Whatever must be done, I for one am all for it so long as it gets rid of socking. I can log in at 4am. I can play 14 hour days. I can play 7 days a week.

I just hate the current way raiding is done. It's not fun. Gone are the days when we went to Hate and worked as a unit for a few hours killing mobs, talking, laughing, and having fun. Now are the days when we log in for 5 minutes because Trak spawned, kill him instantly before he even gets off his second aoe, then port to the next target in window just to repeat the process.

I just feel that it would be a lot more fun if we had another reason or reasons to be doing this. I just wish when Trak popped, we started at the zone in, got all our players to Trak safely, got buffed up, killed him, and tried to do it as effectively as possible and at a nice pace.

If there was some kind of system in place to even reward players for efficiency in that regard, I'd be all for it.

I'd also really like to give the lesser guilds a shot at more content, and I say that as someone who will tell you, is not in a lesser guild.

But I don't care.

I don't walk around on my toons in brag-mode because my pixels make me a better man. IF I were a better man, it's because I want others to succeed as well, NOT because I myself, have succeeded where others have failed.

You can take your cocky forms of competitive arrogance, and you can shove them entirely, straight, up, your, ass.

When I say "you", keep in mind I'm not talking to any poster here, but rather I speak to whoever is defending the current system because they feel they're better than everybody else.

I just wanna have more fun. I could care less if I almost never get anything out of it for my characters. For the sake of sharing though, it almost makes me want instancing, and I can't STAND instancing because I feel that it's a cop out choice forced upon developers when they can't control player selfishness.

That's really all it is.

The more I think about it in fact, the more I feel that's all this anti-sharing thing really is about. It's about children who's parents have to force them not to be selfish. We shouldn't have to be told to share, we should just f*cking do it. There should be no question, no arguments, no debate.

I don't even care if you worked 50 years of your life to earn a 100 million dollars. You are morally obligated to share that wealth. If you disagree with me, then all we have here is a failure in empathy wrought by apathy, and birthed by greed.

[Tasslehofp99]

Morgander for GM!

That is all.

[JayN]

we need LDON! what a wonderful expansion

[Autotune]

I mean, Poopsocking was a stratedgy employed by many guilds on the more popular live servers.

I highly doubt that the dev's added variance with their main consideration being that it would prevent poopsocking. In essence, it does nothing to prevent poopsocking. If people are determined enough to kill a mob, they will still sit on/near it's spawn.

I think that a more logical explanation of why variance was added would be that Classic/kunark lasted ALOT longer on p99 than they did on live. Which leads to oversaturation of the server with high end items/loot/plat/etc, and would make velious far too trivial compared to what it should be on release. In otherwords, the variance was put in as a counter to the fact that our timeline is quite extended.


Autotune -- Do you have any proof that variance was added to prevent poopsocking or are you just assuming that?

I don't care what you highly doubt. I told you why it was added.

It really is no wonder why staff don't talk to you guys, you don't listen worth a damn.

[Tiddlywinks]

As far as the current raid scene not being classic EQ, I don't disagree there. Of course it's not classic, but for me I will say it's pretty close. That's my personal experience though and everyone's will be different. For me, training and variance aren't classic, no. I don't remember any of that, but you know what else I don't remember? I don't remember seeing EVEN CLOSE to the amount of epics on my server during the kunark era as I do on p99. Nor I do remember seeing more than 1 guild sporting epics. First epic I ever saw was the necro epic and it was under a Recon guild tag. I didn't see my next epic for WEEKS and when I did, it was another recon guild tag.

I keep hearing everyone talk about how they remember these rotations on their server. Well, we had rotations on E`ci as well. I remember a guy named Fhaldark used to lead public Hate raids every Thursday night. And there was a website with a calender you could go to see what raids were when and who had what slots. I also remember, that this was late in the Velious era. There was no rotation in the Kunark era. Recon dominated the raid scene (for the US time zone at least). And all these rotations and hearing other guilds tackle these raid targets in the planes and kunark didn't start happening until post Velious, post Luclin, post PoP. That's how I remember it, but even so, someone else who was on the same server might not remember the same way I do, because it all boils down to personal experience. I think people forget that we are STILL in the Kunark era and when you compare to classic, you need to stay within that era, not the timeline. If you're comparing P99 to the live timeline, you are WAY off. As long as p99 has been running, I'm pretty sure we would be in PoP right now. So, we can at least agree on the fact that no, p99 raiding is not exactly the same as live raiding, but if that's what you were expecting when you joined this server (for it to be EXACTLY like live) you set yourself up to be let down a long time. As far as comparing what the raid scene was like during the Kunark era on live and on p99, for me it doesn't seem to far in the regards that one guild did dominate the content.


I had quite the post typed up, but apparently upon submitting it made me re-log and I lost everything I had written over the past half hour, so I'll attempt to keep this brief.

To address your first point, the way that epics and the raid scene on this server are handled highlights a glaring problem in the way that raids are dealt with. Raids have their own subset of rules and regulations that are put into place in order to keep things orderly and to create a more classic raid atmosphere.

You're correct in stating that raiding does feel close to how it was in live in regards to the fact that there is only one guild on top. However the reasons are very different. On live that was usually the case because the majority of players were not as skilled or knowledgeable as the players on this server are. Here the separation occurs because of rules, mechanics, and things being intentionally different.

The same does not hold true for epics. Epics were more rare on live, not only due to the shorter timeline for this Kunark period, but also due to the fact that there was not as much information out there about them, and people did not have the means to figure out the quests as fast and know what's needed to win fights and gather up all of the necessary pieces.

The difference is, with regards to epics, we have no rules, quest changes, or anything of the like to intentionally keep the number of epics deflated on the server so that it is more like it was during classic. So why are they there for raiding.

To your second point, no this isn't live, but it is supposed to be an accurate classic server, is it not? Or are we really so naive as to attempt to reshape and mold a classic experience for a non-classic playerbase? Because that is all that modifying items, rules, and mechanics is accomplishing.

To your point, it does create a raiding environment that is similar to a live raiding environment, but again not at all for the same reasons. I'm of the opinion, and I've heard Nilbog say this countless times, that the development of the server should be done necessarily because it's what the players want, but because it's what classic. He mentions things like adding back spell book for meditating pre-35, took away the compass and all sorts of things I'm sure the majority of players don't mind.

So why then do we have modifications that cater to raiding specifically? We have FTE shouts now, why do we need a variance? If 3 guilds want to show up at a known mobs spawn point and spam target and then empty all of their charges of Ivandyrs hoops in order to try to get loot for a mob, shouldn't that be exactly what raiding on a recreation of a classic EverQuest server looks like? Shouldn't that be the ideal beautiful goal that we're aiming for?

Beautiful not because it's fun, not because it's overly competitive, or not because it's even "fair", but beautiful because it's classic everquest?

The take away from all of this is that I don't think the server should have non-classic elements to appease any individual if it is to be an honest attempt at recreating a classic EverQuest server, and from my understanding people like Nilbog didn't think that either. Frankly I think it's a slippery slope and I don't understand how or why it stops.

Are the servers goals to imitate classic everquest, or are they to try to give it's players a chance to relive the experience?

Because if it's the later, anything short of a time machine is going to come short, no matter how close. The first seems so much more obtainable and logical to me, and really what a lot of people thought the project was all about. I guess that was wrong.

[Tiddlywinks]

I mean, Poopsocking was a stratedgy employed by many guilds on the more popular live servers.

I highly doubt that the dev's added variance with their main consideration being that it would prevent poopsocking. In essence, it does nothing to prevent poopsocking. If people are determined enough to kill a mob, they will still sit on/near it's spawn.

I think that a more logical explanation of why variance was added would be that Classic/kunark lasted ALOT longer on p99 than they did on live. Which leads to oversaturation of the server with high end items/loot/plat/etc, and would make velious far too trivial compared to what it should be on release. In otherwords, the variance was put in as a counter to the fact that our timeline is quite extended.


Autotune -- Do you have any proof that variance was added to prevent poopsocking or are you just assuming that?

On a classic EverQuest server, with this playerbase poopsocking would be occuring, or a rotation or something else determined by the playerbase would most likely be in place to deal with it.

By that same token, that is the EXACT way it should be here.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I don't even care if you worked 50 years of your life to earn a 100 million dollars. You are morally obligated to share that wealth. If you disagree with me, then all we have here is a failure in empathy wrought by apathy, and birthed by greed.

So let me get this right:
1st guy worked for 50 years and made 100M
2nd guy spend 50 years laying on a couch and drinking soda

Now 2nd guy want to get the share the 1st guy wealth because he has a god given right to it....

I guess this how communist revolutions happen :rolleyes:

P.S. I am curious though - if 1st guy would have also spend the 50 years laying on the couch, where would the wealth come from?

[Tiddlywinks]

I don't care what you highly doubt. I told you why it was added.

It really is no wonder why staff don't talk to you guys, you don't listen worth a damn.

Poop socking existed well after variance was introduced. You of all people should know this. It was recently (within the last 6 months) even EXTENDED because it was still occurring, and from what I gather on the forums, still goes on to this day on some mobs.

You could at least try to post facts when people ask for them.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14423&highlight=Variance
Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.

[Autotune]

Poop socking existed well after variance was introduced. You of all people should know this. It was recently (within the last 6 months) even EXTENDED because it was still occurring, and from what I gather on the forums, still goes on to this day on some mobs.

You could at least try to post facts when people ask for them.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14423&highlight=Variance

I never said Variance solved poopsocking, I said it was added because of it.

Poopsocking is the reason variance was added. Poopsocking is the reason Variance was adjusted to go longer.

[Tiddlywinks]

Cool, got links to the patch notes?

[Autotune]

Cool, got links to the patch notes?

I don't need it, I was here. If you want the answer from a source other than me, you find it.

[Tiddlywinks]

But it's not for you. Its for tassle/myself. So if you expect us to believe you we are asking for a bit of proof. I've searched. Found nothing.

People don't just take your word for it because you say so, sorry.

P.S. I was there too, aren't we special?

[Autotune]

But it's not for you. Its for tassle/myself. So if you expect us to believe you we are asking for a bit of proof. I've searched. Found nothing.

People don't just take your word for it because you say so, sorry.

P.S. I was there too, aren't we special?

If you were here, then you should already know that what I said is correct.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I still have not read a reasonable argument for the disuse of a rotation. Every argument I've read has been either an argument wrought of fear of not getting more loot, or an argument that might even have a firm basis, but of which even I seem capable of thinking up half a dozen things that could be done to quell the arguments that line that basis.

Rotations generally tend to lead to bloat. Prexus' rotation for VS was, at one point, over 17 weeks long. It can lead to an overcomplicated system of oversight and qualification. Rotations can work, but they generally work best as agreements between guilds for cutting edge content. Rotations can also work for very common content that will predictably be available (such as Sky), but mixing heavily contested content with the server at large leads to that bloat.

Additionally, it is my observation that many people who argue for rotations tend to view them as morally or ethically superior. That somehow those who prefer competition are entirely selfish and that they continually commit moral trespass. Certainly, it is commendable to share content, but it is not morally obligatory. At best, an argument can be made that rotations are equally as valid as power guilds dominating content. There are certainly issues with raiding on this server, but they stem from the rules and not the player's themselves.

The best thing one can do to change raiding is to challenge the rules and not the players who operate within those rules. Semi-random repops and/or the CSR normalization of VP appear to be the most viable/favored solutions.

I don't even care if you worked 50 years of your life to earn a 100 million dollars. You are morally obligated to share that wealth. If you disagree with me, then all we have here is a failure in empathy wrought by apathy, and birthed by greed.

Translation: "Anyone who disagrees with me is an apathetic sociopath fueled by greed."

You can't expect the other people here to fairly weigh your points while simultaneously throwing this kind of stuff around. You generally carry your thoughts well enough. You're better than that.

[Autotune]

Rotations generally tend to lead to bloat. Prexus' rotation for VS was, at one point, over 17 weeks long. It can lead to an overcomplicated system of oversight and qualification. Rotations can work, but they generally work best as agreements between guilds for cutting edge content. Rotations can also work for very common content that will predictably be available (such as Sky), but mixing heavily contested content with the server at large leads to that bloat.

Additionally, it is my observation that many people who argue for rotations tend to view them as morally or ethically superior. That somehow those who prefer competition are entirely selfish and that they continually commit moral trespass. Certainly, it is commendable to share content, but it is not morally obligatory. At best, an argument can be made that rotations are equally as valid as power guilds dominating content. There are certainly issues with raiding on this server, but they stem from the rules and not the player's themselves.

The best thing one can do to change raiding is to challenge the rules and not the players who operate within those rules. Semi-random repops and/or the CSR normalization of VP appear to be the most viable/favored solutions.



Translation: "Anyone who disagrees with me is an apathetic sociopath fueled by greed."

You can't expect the other people here to fairly weigh your points while simultaneously throwing this kind of stuff around. You generally carry your thoughts well enough. You're better than that.

I'm not. Fuck that guy.

[Tiddlywinks]

If you were here, then you should already know that what I said is correct.

For what it's worth I think you most likely are correct. Although, similar to training in VP I think it had more to do with cutting down petitions to GM due to all of the first in force, and 15 man on spawn rules that exist prior to it than to actually eliminating it just because poopsocking exists or isn't fun.

Basically, I think there isn't a reason for it anymore. FTE shouts take the work out of having to GM poopsocking events.

Anyway, proof is always better than what someone recollects or says they remember. I don't even trust myself to be correct and would love to see some proof.

[Tiddlywinks]

There are certainly issues with raiding on this server, but they stem from the rules and not the player's themselves.

The best thing one can do to change raiding is to challenge the rules and not the players who operate within those rules. Semi-random repops and/or the CSR normalization of VP appear to be the most viable/favored solutions.

It give me a small amount of hope that someone such as yourself, and moreover a member of TMO can acknowledge this. If only we could see progress!

[TarukShmaruk]

I don't even care if you worked 50 years of your life to earn a 100 million dollars. You are morally obligated to share that wealth. If you disagree with me, then all we have here is a failure in empathy wrought by apathy, and birthed by greed.

Says who? You?

[Kika Maslyaka]

IMHO, you can't have both:

-plenty of raid content for everyone
AND
-classic EQ

These two are mutually exclusive.
This is how it was from day one till instancing was born.

Because classic EQ raids are mechanically simplistic, the most fun was achieved by getting to the target at all, rather than "beating the encounter".
When raids finally evolved, and instancing appeared, everyone happily forgot about the "getting there first" and concentrated on "killing it".

Since this is a classic server - there will NEVER be enough content for everyone. Not even for a quarter of everyone.
Accept it. Move on.

[Tasslehofp99]

If we had like 1 server repop a month, and VP training was removed...shit would be a lot better.

[Godefroi]

VP training will be removed when pathing is patched.

That's on the list of the devs, alongside with Velious.

Don't swet it and wait patiently :)

[Llodd]

IMHO, you can't have both:

-plenty of raid content for everyone
AND
-classic EQ

These two are mutually exclusive.
This is how it was from day one till instancing was born.

Because classic EQ raids are mechanically simplistic, the most fun was achieved by getting to the target at all, rather than "beating the encounter".
When raids finally evolved, and instancing appeared, everyone happily forgot about the "getting there first" and concentrated on "killing it".

Since this is a classic server - there will NEVER be enough content for everyone. Not even for a quarter of everyone.
Accept it. Move on.

Just as a fyi, nobody disputes this.

[finalgrunt]

A lot of people talk about what they would do if things were different so I wouldn't assume FE is some benevolent force just because they say they would be.

If tracking all targets seems like too much, how about tracking just one at a time?

That still requires relatively as much effort as tracking 24/7 everything. You still require a 24/7 tracking presence for a single kill. That's unclassic involvment, due to variance.

There shouldn't be a variance, and it should be a poopsock fest like Noble. Which will eventually turn into some sort of agreement between guilds to make things different. With a poopsock, all guilds would have equal chances. We can't have that now do we?

The way things are allow for reduced competition in the end, but claiming it's classic is just being in denial. It's easier to motivate your guild to log for an encounter when you know the spawning time, and actually have a chance at it, than burning out members for tracking for days with a slim chance to get it if bigger rosters can do the same and have twice your raid force logged under 30 seconds, because of multi account plague.

[Morgander]

Rotations generally tend to lead to bloat. Prexus' rotation for VS was, at one point, over 17 weeks long. It can lead to an overcomplicated system of oversight and qualification. Rotations can work, but they generally work best as agreements between guilds for cutting edge content. Rotations can also work for very common content that will predictably be available (such as Sky), but mixing heavily contested content with the server at large leads to that bloat.

Additionally, it is my observation that many people who argue for rotations tend to view them as morally or ethically superior. That somehow those who prefer competition are entirely selfish and that they continually commit moral trespass. Certainly, it is commendable to share content, but it is not morally obligatory. At best, an argument can be made that rotations are equally as valid as power guilds dominating content. There are certainly issues with raiding on this server, but they stem from the rules and not the player's themselves.

The best thing one can do to change raiding is to challenge the rules and not the players who operate within those rules. Semi-random repops and/or the CSR normalization of VP appear to be the most viable/favored solutions.



Translation: "Anyone who disagrees with me is an apathetic sociopath fueled by greed."

You can't expect the other people here to fairly weigh your points while simultaneously throwing this kind of stuff around. You generally carry your thoughts well enough. You're better than that.

I disagree on a few points. Sam Harris states that the questions of morality, as per what is in fact right or wrong, is not simply the case of opinion.

Values, he states, "are a certain kind of fact. They are facts about the well being of conscious creatures."

We do not think that rocks can suffer, thus we do not value the well being of rocks. This idea extends to everything we value, as per what we understand in biological complexity as per how much suffering can become impact.

The conditions of well being holds facts, Sam states. We can move through a continuum of the worst possible suffering of conscious life, up and through to lesser suffering. To move to a more idyllic series of situations.

We know, he says, that there are right and wrong answers to this space.

If we're discussing human well being (thus the human brain and how we realize and experience suffering or idyllic feeling), then to hold the power to withhold idyllic situation from other conscious beings, while keeping them all to yourself, you are, intrinsically and by definition, being immoral. I would find this hard to dissuade myself from, given the sheer amount of logical discourse Sam presents.

Is this entire concept up for differences of opinion?

Sure, but I'm still waiting for any single person to get deep enough into this ethical construct to dissuade me yet that there are not concrete rules for human morality.

I strongly recommend his book, The Moral Landscape if these ideas interest you.

Anyway from the debate onward: I like a more random respawn rate. I also don't actually mind the idea of different versions of given raid mobs.

Think about a Trakenon who can do everything he does, but now he can also aoe mez or stun.

There might be no way to know which "version" of the given raid mob might spawn. No way to be completely prepared for the encounter. Maybe this version needs you to have two junk buffs in your first buff slots, but perhaps this other one requires MR where others didn't.

I love the classic experience and I understand completely the desire to keep the server as classic as possible. I'm not in interest to change that, but if it helps keep a portion of the game more entertaining and fair for the general populace, then I think it a valuable consideration.

[Morgander]

So let me get this right:
1st guy worked for 50 years and made 100M
2nd guy spend 50 years laying on a couch and drinking soda

Now 2nd guy want to get the share the 1st guy wealth because he has a god given right to it....

I guess this how communist revolutions happen :rolleyes:

P.S. I am curious though - if 1st guy would have also spend the 50 years laying on the couch, where would the wealth come from?

The idea of how we from the west (and west-touched cultures) view laziness is in no small part due to the religious effects of sloth correlating to direct sin.

The idea that if you do not work, you've created your own death bed is in itself, intrinsically immoral.

These are archaic theistic views that hold no credence in an intellectually capable modern world.

We are so wholly filled with this idea of how hard we work that for many people, who they are becomes almost directly correlated to their job.

I work hard in all of the things I do, this includes in my employment. I will NEVER be my employment.

I am a martial artist. I am a musician. I am a poet. I am a writer (my degree is in English). I am a student. I am a gamer. I am a thinker. I am a science enthusiast. I am many things.

None of those things are my employment.

The answer to your question is "no". It's no because you asked if he has a god given right to it.

Gods don't exist.

Plus, this kind of conversation, while very interesting, is completely derailing the topic.

[Morgander]

Morgander for GM!

That is all.

I'd do an amazing job.

You've got my vote.

[Morgander]

So let me get this right:
1st guy worked for 50 years and made 100M
2nd guy spend 50 years laying on a couch and drinking soda

Now 2nd guy want to get the share the 1st guy wealth because he has a god given right to it....

I guess this how communist revolutions happen :rolleyes:

P.S. I am curious though - if 1st guy would have also spend the 50 years laying on the couch, where would the wealth come from?

Hard work is very, very seldom directly correlated to wealth or power.

For every individual you can show me who's net worth exceeds a million dollars, I can show you 20 who have, in the entirety of their lives, worked twice as long and twice as hard as that individual, but who have virtually no wealth in comparison.

Do you honestly believe that the wealth distribution in this and many of the other top nations of the world are the way they are because hard work = success?

That's incredibly naive.

[Fawqueue]

Hard work is very, very seldom directly correlated to wealth or power.

For every individual you can show me who's net worth exceeds a million dollars, I can show you 20 who have, in the entirety of their lives, worked twice as long and twice as hard as that individual, but who have virtually no wealth in comparison.

Do you honestly believe that the wealth distribution in this and many of the other top nations of the world are the way they are because hard work = success?

That's incredibly naive.

Tell me, what was it like to occupy Wall street?

[finalgrunt]

Variance has removed poopsocking, a bad aspect of classic EQ raiding. Period.

In your opinion, and because that benefits you.

Since we now have FTE rules & FTE shouts, poopsocking doesn't lead to the same issues as in the past. Poopsocking would become rampant, until all partie agree to play another way.

About time they remove variance.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Hard work is very, very seldom directly correlated to wealth or power.

For every individual you can show me who's net worth exceeds a million dollars, I can show you 20 who have, in the entirety of their lives, worked twice as long and twice as hard as that individual, but who have virtually no wealth in comparison.

Do you honestly believe that the wealth distribution in this and many of the other top nations of the world are the way they are because hard work = success?

That's incredibly naive.

No, I don't believe that.
A lot of wealthy people either inherited their wealth, or build up on wealth inherited, or just got luckier than others.

However, it is also incredibly naive to think that "lets share everything" ideology would bright you anywhere but to end of civilization.

Lets take Soviet Russia. In 1917 they took all the wealth there was in the country from all the people (those who had by inheritance and those who earned it themselves) and shared among everyone - actually everything went to the state, and live quality of average inhabitant was improved by about... 5%. And they killed everyone who resisted - which included about 50% of all the best and brightest in the country.
And then they start to pay equal wages to all factory/farm workers regardless of how well they worked. So people who could work better had no incentive to do so, since they would still be paid exactly the same. And rest of work force realized that they don't really need to work even at minimum requirement, since they will be paid full salary anyway.
Then Stalin comes along, and forces everyone to work to 125% under penalty of death - which produced some of the "wonders of early socialism" which also cost the country 8 million lives. Then Stalin dies, the rules are relaxed and workers go back to: it doesn't matter how well you work you still getting paid the same, cause we are sharing and everyone is equal.
And 30 years later, USSR, the richest, the largest and the most powerful country in the world, collapses under its own weight. And then the "patriots" start to point fingers looking for a scape goat, since in "the best country in the world" everyone was equal and 100% happy, so how could we come to such a ruin?

History/economy lesson aside, lets go back to EQ raiding.

And truth here, that your parallel between raiding and RL is invalid.
You cannot compare competitive game playing vs RL economical needs of population.

You can compare it to sports however. In sports people compete to demonstrate their skill and effort, for glory and potentially rewards.

You say you are martial artists and musician. So lets see.

You train for 5 years like mad, you enter the competition, you win, you get your medal and a 10k cash prize. then the 100 guys who didn't won came to the judge and say : "hey we competed too - we want the medal too, and a share of 10k. So what that we didn't win, he have the right!" And judges say - "yeah sure, you have the right" - and everyone gets the same medal and equal share of the 10k cash prize.
Then next day, 10,000 people show up and say - "we watch the tournament on TV, so in way we participated too. We want our share too!" So we split those 10k again to satisfy everyone, and and give everyone the same 1st place medal with their name on it.

Now, you are an artists - you painted a beautiful picture, and won a first prize, and your picture is being displayed at national museum. However the label on the picture doesn't say it was painted by you - its says "made by the people of country X". Now if you try to claim that you actually created that masterpiece, the people will say : "What are you? A fucking capitalist? This picture was made by the people!"

In short - in the world where everything is shared caused it must - there will be no incentive to ever create anything new, or even work for that matter. Why work when you go to the guy who have slightly more than you and demand your share?

The only question remains, what all of you "share-lovers" will do when there is nothing left to take? Since no one works - no one produces anything. Soon you will start beating each other on the head with sticks and stones for scraps of food, and turn to cannibalism. And some time latter degenerate into apes you came from.

You like fantasy? Read Terry Goodkind Sword of Truth series - his 5th book has a perfect demonstration of how medieval communism would look like, where people believe that rest of the world owns them a share of everything.

Back to raiding once more.
The top guilds (TMO in specific) started on this server same as everyone - a naked level 1. But they had the skill and a determination to put more time and effort into getting to the top. What stopped you from playing 15 hours a day and waking up at 5am to be at the raid spawn in 5min? If you really want those "pixels", as some folks like to say, you must drop everything else you have, and concentrate on getting those pixels. No? Then you can come to these forums everyday and cry and beg and whine, and have TMO laugh in your face.

[Alarti0001]

I disagree on a few points. Sam Harris states that the questions of morality, as per what is in fact right or wrong, is not simply the case of opinion.

Values, he states, "are a certain kind of fact. They are facts about the well being of conscious creatures."

We do not think that rocks can suffer, thus we do not value the well being of rocks. This idea extends to everything we value, as per what we understand in biological complexity as per how much suffering can become impact.

The conditions of well being holds facts, Sam states. We can move through a continuum of the worst possible suffering of conscious life, up and through to lesser suffering. To move to a more idyllic series of situations.

We know, he says, that there are right and wrong answers to this space.

If we're discussing human well being (thus the human brain and how we realize and experience suffering or idyllic feeling), then to hold the power to withhold idyllic situation from other conscious beings, while keeping them all to yourself, you are, intrinsically and by definition, being immoral. I would find this hard to dissuade myself from, given the sheer amount of logical discourse Sam presents.

Is this entire concept up for differences of opinion?

Sure, but I'm still waiting for any single person to get deep enough into this ethical construct to dissuade me yet that there are not concrete rules for human morality.



There are not concrete rules with human morality, this isnt found in philosophy its found in genetics and human history. Change your sources.

[Godefroi]

There are not concrete rules with human morality, this isnt found in philosophy its found in genetics and human history. Change your sources.

It's not moral to date innocent high school freshmen on meetic.

Asshole.

[finalgrunt]

You train for 5 years like mad, you enter the competition, you win, you get your medal and a 10k cash prize. then the 100 guys who didn't won came to the judge and say : "hey we competed too - we want the medal too, and a share of 10k. So what that we didn't win, he have the right!" And judges say - "yeah sure, you have the right" - and everyone gets the same medal and equal share of the 10k cash prize.
Then next day, 10,000 people show up and say - "we watch the tournament on TV, so in way we participated too. We want our share too!" So we split those 10k again to satisfy everyone, and and give everyone the same 1st place medal with their name on it.


If you want a true analogy ....

If p99 raiding was like boxing, you would have a single tournament, where a 10 years old girl would have to face Mike Tyson. That's why there are tiered tournaments, so that the best don't just demolish new people, and they can enjoy themselves at their level, and still grow stronger with time. In p99, after Mike Tyson breaks all teeth and ribs of the little girl, he will smile at the camera and yell "Next!".

[finalgrunt]

Lol why does that benefit me (TMO) over everyone else? I don't get it...

Do you have an incurable disease that forbids you to track in Divinity?

By the way, when I'm talking, this has got nothing to do with Divinity (even more since I'm 3/4 retired until raid scene becomes more classic), it's more as a player who has raided in the past with other guilds and on Live. The disease would be a job and a family to care about. However, while I could raid without variance (could time a guild effort to be there at the right time), with it in place, I just can't help.

It does benefit TMO since the curent rules with variance creates an environment where big rosters are needed, and being on top means a greater appeal for new recruits. Tracking 24/7 has got some heavy burning out power, and smaller guilds don't want to change their roots to meet such requirements. On Live it wasn't needed, at least during classic era. I remember people would at best losely track every now and then. And guilds would wait in turn for attempts if the spawn time was known. Agreements arose later with expansions as competition became fiercer.

Also why should I go through unclassic involvment to meet your own unclassic standards? In the past, I've asked for a free week for all the other guilds to compete against each other one week every 9 or 10. That's leaving 9 times out of 10 which would be more than enough to acknowledge your guild's superiority don't you think?

But hey, if you want to remain greedy, that's your choice, and you're free to do so. As I said, I won't lose sleep over it (let me know when your guild bank account reaches 100 millions pp ;))

[Alarti0001]

If you want a true analogy ....

If p99 raiding was like boxing, you would have a single tournament, where a 10 years old girl would have to face Mike Tyson. That's why there are tiered tournaments, so that the best don't just demolish new people, and they can enjoy themselves at their level, and still grow stronger with time. In p99, after Mike Tyson breaks all teeth and ribs of the little girl, he will smile at the camera and yell "Next!".

Maybe one day that little girl will have a nice training montage video get better and take out Mike Tyson? Oh... that would be too much work for someone who wants handouts tho :(

[Autotune]

By the way, when I'm talking, this has got nothing to do with Divinity (even more since I'm 3/4 retired until raid scene becomes more classic), it's more as a player who has raided in the past with other guilds and on Live. The disease would be a job and a family to care about. However, while I could raid without variance (could time a guild effort to be there at the right time), with it in place, I just can't help.

It does benefit TMO since the curent rules with variance creates an environment where big rosters are needed, and being on top means a greater appeal for new recruits. Tracking 24/7 has got some heavy burning out power, and smaller guilds don't want to change their roots to meet such requirements. On Live it wasn't needed, at least during classic era. I remember people would at best losely track every now and then. And guilds would wait in turn for attempts if the spawn time was known. Agreements arose later with expansions as competition became fiercer.

Also why should I go through unclassic involvment to meet your own unclassic standards? In the past, I've asked for a free week for all the other guilds to compete against each other one week every 9 or 10. That's leaving 9 times out of 10 which would be more than enough to acknowledge your guild's superiority don't you think?

But hey, if you want to remain greedy, that's your choice, and you're free to do so. As I said, I won't lose sleep over it (let me know when your guild bank account reaches 100 millions pp ;))

Yeah, greedy TMO never gave up spawns twice before and both times non-selfish idiots didn't complain that it wasn't enough... oh wait...

[Nirgon]

It's called life. Some people CAN'T beat Mike Tyson.

I'm one of those people, all of you are too.

[finalgrunt]

Yeah, greedy TMO never gave up spawns twice before and both times non-selfish idiots didn't complain that it wasn't enough... oh wait...

If you think that giving away 2 dragons total is enough, be my guest.

It's called life. Some people CAN'T beat Mike Tyson.

I'm one of those people, all of you are too.

But some people still enjoy competing in the tier that is matching their current level.

Maybe one day that little girl will have a nice training montage video get better and take out Mike Tyson? Oh... that would be too much work for someone who wants handouts tho

Oh the usual spin about too much work and handouts. Where does your unclassic involvment fall under the said logic? Get rid of unclassic variance, and let's see what happens from there. On Live you could schedule raids. Here you can't. I guess current system works well for people who can now play 24/7.

Why wouldn't you want to get rid of variance now that there is FTE shout?

[Autotune]

It's called life. Some people CAN'T beat Mike Tyson.

I'm one of those people, all of you are too.

I could, I'd run his ass over from behind in my expedition full of goats and rodeo clowns.

[gotrocks]

Maybe one day that little girl will have a nice training montage video get better and take out Mike Tyson?

pretty good response imo

was a stupid analogy to begin with though.

[HookrsNBlow]

I could, I'd run his ass over from behind in my expedition full of goats and rodeo clowns.

Pretty sure your Expedition would get DQ'd at the weigh in bro

Be a lot of sad murderous goats, rodeo clowns, and followers of this threads analogies :(

[Autotune]

If you think that giving away 2 dragons total is enough, be my guest.

You're an idiot.

The twice doesn't refer to two targets, it refers to two different times when TMO gave spawnS*********** to the server

[Faisca]

Also why should I go through unclassic involvment to meet your own unclassic standards? In the past, I've asked for a free week for all the other guilds to compete against each other one week every 9 or 10. That's leaving 9 times out of 10 which would be more than enough to acknowledge your guild's superiority don't you think?


The problem I see with this deal is that nothing is given in return to what is being asked.

Perhaps a better starting point for a future deal would be to ask for one week every 10 and give one week every 10 to TMO in return, where only TMO gets to raid, nobody else.

This way, all other guilds get a week and TMO gets the luxury of having one week of relaxed classic EQ raiding without any competition.

If during this week any other guild takes at least one raid target, the deal would be considered void.

[Ravager]

In the past, TMO begged TR for rotations. They said it was to avoid the poopsocks. Maybe what this server needs is perpetual open raid poopsocking to get TMO begging for rotations. People can come and go from the poopsock as they please, noone gets burnt out.

[Autotune]

In the past, TMO begged TR for rotations. They said it was to avoid the poopsocks. Maybe what this server needs is perpetual open raid poopsocking to get TMO begging for rotations. People can come and go from the poopsock as they please, noone gets burnt out.

Ohhh, that will scare TMO. Let's see how many weeks the server can hold out against TMO.

I'm going to say 2 days.

[Alarti0001]

In the past, TMO begged TR for rotations. They said it was to avoid the poopsocks. Maybe what this server needs is perpetual open raid poopsocking to get TMO begging for rotations. People can come and go from the poopsock as they please, noone gets burnt out.

Only rotation TMO did were Xmas holiday rotations and the initial VP rotation. If anyone was seriously challenging us we'd prob do it during those months again. But no one is challenging us they just want free rotations

[Ravager]

Ohhh, that will scare TMO. Let's see how many weeks the server can hold out against TMO.

I'm going to say 2 days.

I think it's funny you took my idea as seriously as you did.

[finalgrunt]

You're an idiot.

The twice doesn't refer to two targets, it refers to two different times when TMO gave spawnS*********** to the server

How many was that? What's the difference with asking for a week of mobs left to tier 2 competition every 10 weeks then? (that's 10% left for the rest of the server) If there is no difference then why did TMO decline? If it's too much, then that's what I'm talking about, pure greed as defined below:

Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

Anyway, I'd rather have variance removed than needing charity from the top guilds :p

Wow, so you're saying things are unfair because the guild with biggest numbers and most devoted people wins? Aww yea, so unfair...

I never said that. I said that winning 9 times out 10 was already a good way to reward your efforts. Willing to grab it all is just pure greed (see your guild bank account, it speaks for itself when it comes to real needs for your members).

If you don't like what I am saying, it's not my fault, it's just a fact. So you have a choice: keep monopolizing content, and be called greedy, or share a bit, and still retain most loot and gain some community points. For all I care, I'll enjoy my time either way (which will be inside or outside p99). Inherently, you'll do what you want *shrugs*.

But I see you all keep eluding the fact that I'm asking for unclassic variance to be removed, so that we don't have to go to unclassic lengths to compete. What do you have to say about this instead?

[Autotune]

I think it's funny you took my idea as seriously as you did.

That's because you're an idiot and can't tell when I'm serious or not. Stupid people often laugh at things they don't comprehend.

[Autotune]

How many was that? What's the difference with asking for a week of mobs left to tier 2 competition every 10 weeks then? (that's 10% left for the rest of the server) If there is no difference then why did TMO decline? If it's too much, then that's what I'm talking about, pure greed.



Anyway, I'd rather have variance removed than needing charity from the top guilds :p



I never said that. I said that winning 9 times out 10 was already a good way to reward your efforts. Willing to grab it all is just pure greed (see your guild bank account, it speaks for itself when it comes to real needs for your members).

If you don't like what I am saying, it's not my fault, it's just a fact. So you have a choice: keep monopolizing content, and be called greedy, or share a bit, and still retain most loot and gain some community points. For all I care, I'll enjoy my time either way (which will be inside or outside p99). Inherently, you'll do what you want *shrugs*.

I'd say TMO gave up around 8-10 total. I know the first time around 4-5 weeks with a target being left up each week. Gore, Tal, Sev I know were some of the targets.

TMO did the "Endangered species" crap and then stopped, after people complained it was some dark plot and that the raid targets didn't drop the best loot. TMO did it again and was met with similar complaints. Now you wonder why they don't agree to another form of the same thing.

I don't think any of them who know what has happened in the past give a shit if you call them greedy, they know the score.

I'd rather eat my cake and listen to a person bitch they can't have any, than share my cake and listen to them bitch at the flavor.

[finalgrunt]

TMO did the "Endangered species" crap and then stopped, after people complained it was some dark plot and that the raid targets didn't drop the best loot. TMO did it again and was met with similar complaints. Now you wonder why they don't agree to another form of the same thing.

Sorry, but you seem misinformed because that wasn't the reasons of the decline.

And what do you have to say about unclassic variance being removed? That's certainly is a legit request don't you think?

[Autotune]

Sorry, but you seem misinformed because that wasn't the reasons of the decline.

And what do you have to say about unclassic variance being removed? That's certainly is a legit request don't you think?

I'm not misinformed. After the last time TMO gave away raid mobs and was met with more bullshit they said they would never do it again.

Why are you asking me something I've already given an opinion on hundreds of times?

[finalgrunt]

I'm not misinformed. After the last time TMO gave away raid mobs and was met with more bullshit they said they would never do it again.

Why are you asking me something I've already given an opinion on hundreds of times?

Still not the reasons given for the decline by your (ex?) leader. Anyway, do you mind giving it for the 101th then? As I don't really follow your posts you know ;)

[Atmas]

I might get stones thrown at me but I kind of like variance. Not because its beneficial to the guilds who put in the time to track, but because it keeps mob spawn and kill times from being locked into times when I couldn't raid. I have a family, full time work, and school and I could definitely see everything getting killed every day while I'm in the office.

[Autotune]

Still not the reasons given for the decline by your (ex?) leader. Anyway, do you mind giving it for the 101th then? As I don't really follow your posts you know ;)

It needs to be removed or greatly reduced (especially when Velious is released). I suppose you guys haven't been pushing for raid changes as long as I (and a few others) have.

Edit: It also doesn't matter what reason they gave. TMO in the past has given raid targets (more than what you asked for) and now they won't. I suppose TMO just magically became super greedy and that the shitty attitude of the server in regards to them giving away raid targets had nothing to do with the change.

[finalgrunt]

It needs to be removed or greatly reduced (especially when Velious is released). I suppose you guys haven't been pushing for raid changes as long as I (and a few others) have.

Well then good to see we're agreeing on something. As for changing the raid scene, maybe not trying, but discussing it? Phew that takes me back a while :D

[Atmas]

Also going to throw in there, rotations are nothing like my classic experience.

[Droog007]

My classic experience included guilds not zoning into Fear or Hate when another guild was there... unless perhaps they were obviously struggling to stay alive and not making headway.

Rotations? No. Class and tact? Usually.

[darklight]

I read through 20 pages of this particular thread before I had a thought that I wanted to contribute. If this thought has already been discussed, then please discard my post.

I want to talk about the idea of enforcing a server wide rotation.

Now, the GMs have not yet enforced a rotation, and as far as I can gather, they have no interest in doing so. This leaves only one option: The players make the rules. Discussion is fine, but as anyone who has tried can see, discussion has not made a server rotation a reality.

So:

Those in favor of setting up a server-wide rotation need to organize themselves. They need to become the top force in the server. What this means is that through combined effort, this force must use all means available, including training in VP (if that's what it takes), to be at any and every raid target first and to deny TMO, or any other top force, access. Fight fire with fire. When words don't solve matters, actions do.

When this combined force becomes the predominant one - and it IS possible, with numbers, with organization, and with dedication to the cause (yes, this sounds like a revolution; that's because it is) - this force can then enforce a rotation. Any group who is "out of line" will be controlled by means of this force, who does so by beating rule breakers to the target and denying access.

That's the only way a rotation will happen.

This is a social game; we interact, and we decide what the rules are. We police ourselves, if that's what we want badly enough...or not.

Make no mistake, this would mean "war" (probably a long, drawn out one, until one side or the other finally gives in) and would not enact change over night. This group would have to work hard for it. If the people in this group finally won, would they still want to share after their effort? I don't know. It's up to them at that point. Will they be benevolent leaders or will they hoard it all for themselves? When the war is over, a rotation could give other, less powerful, less dedicated forces a shot - I'm thinking specifically about the more casual guilds. Again, if this new group still wanted to share.

If the war never ends? Well, then now the raid competition is as lively and as fair as it ever can or should be!

If this hypothetical rotation came into existence, then when a large enough group of like-minded individuals didn't want the rotation, they would deny the "rotation enforcers" access in the same manner. And the cycle continues. It's not wrong either way. The only thing that matters is: who wants it (the power to make the rules) the most?

If you don't want it enough, then this idea is meaningless to you, but if you do, make friends, grow, and fight back. As others have said it in far fewer words: play the game; play it the way it is. It IS possible to win.

As for me? I don't have the time nor the desire, so I just share my thoughts on the subject. Maybe enough people do have the time and the desire, though. They can "make it better for everyone," if that's what they think is better.

Edit: I finished the rest of the thread. Some good thoughts in here on all sides. I nominate Morgander to be a leader in this new force to overcome tyranny, if he wants it, rather than nominating him to be GM - leave the GMs out of it and let them do what they are good at and what they originally came here to do. The game is as classic as we want it to be, in all aspects other than the direct coding of the game. Not everyone had the same classic experience, which I think a lot of people either don't realize, or they forget. You might think that your classic experience of EverQuest wasn't fighting for the way things were, which is probably true, but that's what it will take now. Things can change after, and then you will be in position to propagate your version of the classic EverQuest experience.

[Ravager]

That's because you're an idiot and can't tell when I'm serious or not. Stupid people often laugh at things they don't comprehend.

And you're a smelly jerk with a questionable haircut. This battle of wits is over.

[Arteker]

I might get stones thrown at me but I kind of like variance. Not because its beneficial to the guilds who put in the time to track, but because it keeps mob spawn and kill times from being locked into times when I couldn't raid. I have a family, full time work, and school and I could definitely see everything getting killed every day while I'm in the office.

the joys to be a raider european guild back in live when americans go back .stuff was allready fried cooked and loot awarded sniff sniff sniff the god ole times

[Tasslehofp99]

Fuck a rotation, just actually enforce the rules that are in place now and remove training in VP and the raiding scene will already be worlds better than it is now. Then you just have random repops every 2-4 weeks, you will see a lot more guilds going for mobs and killing them than is happening right now.

Removing variance would help as well but I have a feeling until velious is out this is not an option simply because Kunark has been farmed so much that there is way too many lvl 60's with full BiS/Epics etc. When velious came out on live there was a VERY small portion of the server who had BiS/epics, so the content was a lot harder. I have a feeling that velious release on p99 is going to be a lot more trivial than it was on live as far as raiding goes because we've had 2 years to prepare/farm instead of the 10-11 months that kunark was out before velious on live.

[Autotune]

And you're a smelly jerk with a questionable haircut. This battle of wits is over.

Now you're cooking with propane!

[Kika Maslyaka]

Fuck a rotation, just actually enforce the rules that are in place now and remove training in VP and the raiding scene will already be worlds better than it is now. Then you just have random repops every 2-4 weeks, you will see a lot more guilds going for mobs and killing them than is happening right now.

Removing variance would help as well but I have a feeling until velious is out this is not an option simply because Kunark has been farmed so much that there is way too many lvl 60's with full BiS/Epics etc. When velious came out on live there was a VERY small portion of the server who had BiS/epics, so the content was a lot harder. I have a feeling that velious release on p99 is going to be a lot more trivial than it was on live as far as raiding goes because we've had 2 years to prepare/farm instead of the 10-11 months that kunark was out before velious on live.

+1

I fear that top guilds will tear through Velious content in a matter of 2 months and demand next chapter :D

[Frieza_Prexus]

+1

I fear that top guilds will tear through Velious content in a matter of 2 months and demand next chapter :D

I can't help but wonder if the devs will slip in some evil, yet subtle, tweaks. For example, set an aggro cap that no one player can have more than X aggro than any other player. Keep the margin thin and overnukers/DPS will get eaten if they aren't careful. Little things like AC, regen, and aggro settings if done properly could make this stuff really hard while remaining subtle.

[Arteker]

I can't help but wonder if the devs will slip in some evil, yet subtle, tweaks. For example, set an aggro cap that no one player can have more than X aggro than any other player. Keep the margin thin and overnukers/DPS will get eaten if they aren't careful. Little things like AC, regen, and aggro settings if done properly could make this stuff really hard while remaining subtle.

u forgot dragon rege in velious isnt the same as kunark hehe? agro was changed aswell in ehals and nuke and procs.

[Morgander]

I want to talk about the idea of enforcing a server wide rotation.

Now, the GMs have not yet enforced a rotation, and as far as I can gather, they have no interest in doing so. This leaves only one option: The players make the rules. Discussion is fine, but as anyone who has tried can see, discussion has not made a server rotation a reality.

So:

Those in favor of setting up a server-wide rotation need to organize themselves. They need to become the top force in the server. What this means is that through combined effort, this force must use all means available, including training in VP (if that's what it takes), to be at any and every raid target first and to deny TMO, or any other top force, access. Fight fire with fire. When words don't solve matters, actions do.

This is a social game; we interact, and we decide what the rules are. We police ourselves, if that's what we want badly enough...or not.

Edit: I finished the rest of the thread. Some good thoughts in here on all sides. I nominate Morgander to be a leader in this new force to overcome tyranny, if he wants it, rather than nominating him to be GM - leave the GMs out of it and let them do what they are good at and what they originally came here to do. The game is as classic as we want it to be, in all aspects other than the direct coding of the game. Not everyone had the same classic experience, which I think a lot of people either don't realize, or they forget. You might think that your classic experience of EverQuest wasn't fighting for the way things were, which is probably true, but that's what it will take now. Things can change after, and then you will be in position to propagate your version of the classic EverQuest experience.

Herein lies the dilemma. The server shouldn't need a forced rotation. The players should be able to discuss this sort of thing and agree to share.

There are a million different techniques and nuances that could be utilized to make it fun and fair for everybody.

For example. Guilds could be scrutinized based on their active members higher than a set level (say we set that level at 58 for example, or even 60).

This information could be posted and updated for all to view, and how many different mobs can be added to the rotation of a given guild could be determined by this number.

Then we can have guilds barter or trade with one another for various rotation cycles. You want more Trak and TMO frankly doesn't need anymore? They can give them up for say, more VS spawns.

I also still like the idea of guilds self-competing. Say a rule is put into place that says that a guild cannot log off players at the zone of a given raid mob prior to that mob spawning. Maybe the closest you can log for Trak is outside Seb. Then you have 1 hour to get your raid down there to kill it in one try. A wipe means the next guild in line gets the next shot. Taking over an hour means the next guild in line gets the next shot.

Do it in say, 15 minutes flat from zone in to kill on your first attempt? Maybe the GM in question for the day can check the loot table for the mob and randomly select one item in that table to double up on for the killing guild.

These kinds of things are only positives for everyone. We have incentives to try harder to focus killing a mob. It destroys poop-socking because we could easily go back to removing variance. Now you know when the mob's going to spawn and you can LITERALLY set it up on your guild sites exactly when people should show up for a given raid and how long it's going to take in many aspects.

For players who just can't sit there and sock on a Saturday for instance, they would KNOW that VS spawns in 2 hours and your guild only has ONE hour to kill him (maybe 30 minutes since VS is so easy to get to).

This means if VS is scheduled to spawn at 4PM, you KNOW you have to raid from around 4PM to 4:30 and no later.

Kill VS in 5 minutes flat? Get double the loot!

There could even be server-wide tests of strength as it were. Think of them like GM events controlled almost strictly by the playerbase.

Guilds could try something, say FE manages to kill VS in 14 minutes with only 22 people. Now if say TMO can do it in 12 minutes with the same or fewer, the GM's could award TMO with something nice, maybe double the VS loot for that day, or a random pair of VS leggings to be rolled on by the GM's.

There are just so many ways that I personally think we as a community could make the entire experience here better.

And actually, sure. I would be willing to be a part of that, be it in discussions to help setting up rules or regulations, the monitoring and or enforcing of those creations, or in some form of server guide to help things run smoothly.

Just ideas after all.

[Kika Maslyaka]

if you going to push for non classic customization - may as well just play on one of the custom servers, that have things like: 10x times as many raid targets, instancing, and other modern features. Storm Haven, Hidden Forest - they all very good at what they do.

[Tasslehofp99]

Heh exactly... why do you play on p99 if you wanna custom everything to "make the experience better"... just pick a customized server. We're playing real Everquest here

"Real Everquest" had server repops every 3-4 weeks, had no sanctioned training, and had no insane variance like we have here. Sanctioned training in VP, and Variance are non-classic customizations.

[Droog007]

+1

I fear that top guilds will tear through Velious content in a matter of 2 months and demand next chapter :D

I pray that top guilds will tear through Velious content in a matter of 2 months and GTFO.

[Autotune]

I pray that top guilds will tear through Velious content in a matter of 2 months and GTFO.

Yeah, like they did for Kunar...

[Khaleesi]

There's a term that goes around a lot in these discussions and that's 'Raid scene'
Music has scenes, art has scenes even piracy apparently has scenes but an emulated video game published in 1999 does not need a scene.

That alone should give perspective on how absurd the entire thing is. It's people who legitimately believe raiding on P99 is a THING, that are the culprits for why it's turned out like it has.

[Autotune]

There's a term that goes around a lot in these discussions and that's 'Raid scene'
Music has scenes, art has scenes even piracy apparently has scenes but an emulated video game published in 1999 does not need a scene.

That alone should give perspective on how absurd the entire thing is. It's people who legitimately believe raiding on P99 is a THING, that are the culprits for why it's turned out like it has.

...

[Lagaidh]

I thought I'd pop in the forums and say "Hi", maybe ask folks what's new since I've been away for a month...

39th page...

Same stuff. And a lot of the same stuff.

[Lagaidh]

The more I think about it in fact, the more I feel that's all this anti-sharing thing really is about. It's about children who's parents have to force them not to be selfish. We shouldn't have to be told to share, we should just f*cking do it. There should be no question, no arguments, no debate.

Heh. Did you see how half of America reacted to passing a law to share a basic level of health?

Humanity: We Are Disgusting!

[Acrux Bcrux]

There's a term that goes around a lot in these discussions and that's 'Raid scene'
Music has scenes, art has scenes even piracy apparently has scenes but an emulated video game published in 1999 does not need a scene.

That alone should give perspective on how absurd the entire thing is. It's people who legitimately believe raiding on P99 is a THING, that are the culprits for why it's turned out like it has.

There technically is a scene. The guilds who compete (TMO, FE, and am I missing anyone else?) and the guilds who dont (Way too many to name) Youre either in the race or not. Most are not, but should be. No clue why no one else even trys.

[Kika Maslyaka]

There technically is a scene. The guilds who compete (TMO, FE, and am I missing anyone else?) and the guilds who dont (Way too many to name) Youre either in the race or not. Most are not, but should be. No clue why no one else even trys.

so TMO and FE make the scene, and rest are spectators ;)

[Godefroi]

Velious being the last expansion of the project, they are probably delaying it because once everything will be killed, people will move on and leave. The way they're working on everything else than Velious is a kind of proof of what i'm saying.

So you say the Server has max population even after 3 years of Kunark only because Velious is to be released?

As much as this could be true, I believe this 1000-3000 players base is the one that wants "permanent classic" as they view the real EQ nostalgic experience as Classic-Kunark-Velious.

I'm not really sure P99 would die once velious is released and beaten. I'm pretty sure a time locked server being released with the real time frame would challenge a lot of nostalgic players, as it wouldn't be as retarded as it is right now with mains and 3rd alts full VP.

[Godefroi]

I do believe Velious is being intentionaly delayed as well, but not for worries about the server dying or anything else.

I believe it's being delayed because the staff himself (besides Nilbog) has lost interest in the project due to the intense CSR involved by its success.

Basically, what makes P99 successful is the little GM intervention, everything is contested, etc. Server is alive because achievements mean something.

On the other hand, it generates a lot of petitioning and drama. As much as raiders get bored of content, I can imagine how old it must be getting to go solve an FTE petition at Noble...

Either way, the staff doesn't want to regulate the server, and don't want to deal with the mass of petitioning it involves.

Imagine this with Velious. The amount of petitions would be 10 times higher. I just don't think they want to deal with it (and if you Watch latest Sirken's twitch, he states that he doesn't want "Headaches"). You got your answer pretty much.

It's a vicious circle.

[webrunner5]

In TMO we have more and more people going for a break because we hardly find the motivation to kill the same content everytime... with no news about Velious at all. But yeah we're staying because of Velious and i think the majority of the server does too... for lots of different reasons.

After like 1 year of Velious, the server may not die completely, but just like in a serie, you enjoy it and talk about it until the last episode. Then you move on and forget it ...

There will be twinks everywhere, characters sales, money value will decrease and emblematic people that made the history of the server as we know it will be gone... At this point, i'm pretty sure Velious release is intentionnally delayed. For that reason and maybe others i didn't think about...

In any project, when you're that late in your delivery, you get more people to work on it, you keep your customers informed and explain why you're late etc... The fact that it's free to play shouldn't justify everything. They're not doing anything about it, so they don't want it to be released for now.

Very well stated. I find myself being in the forums more than in game lately. Kunark is getting pretty damn old. And like I have stated I am not really a big fan of Velious other than a couple of zones. And the top 2 or 3 guilds will have them tied up for a long time. Not looking too good for me in the long run on P1999.

[Porz]

As old people leave new ones are just starting. And with the Velious release the server will not die. Didn't a gm mention a progression based server after its all said and done?

[Tasslehofp99]

Easy raiding scene fix: 1. Remove training in VP, 2. Have server repops 3-4 weeks apart, 3. Remove variance.


Removing variance would probably be my last choice out of these 3 options. But I think the first 2 options together would increase competition in the raid scene immensely, without adding too much work for devs/GMs.

[deneauth]

I do believe Velious is being intentionaly delayed as well, but not for worries about the server dying or anything else.

I believe it's being delayed because the staff himself (besides Nilbog) has lost interest in the project due to the intense CSR involved by its success.

Basically, what makes P99 successful is the little GM intervention, everything is contested, etc. Server is alive because achievements mean something.

On the other hand, it generates a lot of petitioning and drama. As much as raiders get bored of content, I can imagine how old it must be getting to go solve an FTE petition at Noble...

Either way, the staff doesn't want to regulate the server, and don't want to deal with the mass of petitioning it involves.

Imagine this with Velious. The amount of petitions would be 10 times higher. I just don't think they want to deal with it (and if you Watch latest Sirken's twitch, he states that he doesn't want "Headaches"). You got your answer pretty much.

It's a vicious circle.


The staff has hinted that the community should work towards solving these problems ourselves over and over and over again. We have yet to do it. Maybe we will some day but ALL parties involved have to want to do it. I say, if you like non classic variance tracking competitions then keep your competition because the nostalgia i am looking for just isn't worth the time.

What would be so hard about making a rotation with a set of rules like the next guild in the rotation has X amount of time to defeat said target before it becomes FFA? It's a rotation with competition still.

[Alarti0001]

Yeah, like they did for Kunar...

but they wont be looking forward to luclin.....

[Tasslehofp99]

I don't think this server currently has a big enough staff capable of enforcing the current rules on this server, as evidenced by such things as FTE shouts being implemented, training still being allowed in VP 2 + years after kunark release, and the generally chaotic atmosphere on the server during raids or even in primetime exp zones.

There are people regularly breaking server rules going unpunished, and its getting old. Furthermore I think releasing velious prior to hammering out any problems with kunark would be detrimental to the box in general.

I mean who wants to log on when they have limited time to begin with, and there's a risk they will be trained repeatedly without any hope for recourse. If you aren't a solo class p99 becomes much more difficult because you end up having to rely on groups. When you are reliant on others, it takes time to get exp flowing, and you will be very disappointed when you put that time in only to have your session ruined by some asshole who trains without hesitation (intentionally or not) because there are no repercussions.


Sure, there was training on live which may have at times been inevitable. But repeatedly and blatantly training people was something that always went enforced on live.


Ps, I would support new GMs who's sole purpose was enforcing the servers rules fairly across guild lines, and one who displayed consistency with their decisions. There are many instances in the past where rules/rulings are changed and reversed on the fly or instances of one GM saying one thing and another GM saying something that is the complete opposite. Stuff like this needs to be minimalized, especially considering the level of trust amongst players for server staff members following past GM's indiscretions. Not trying to take a shot at any current GMs here but from what I've seen lately they have their plates full, p99 blue could probably use another 2 gms. One could be dedicated to raiding enforcement while the other handles enforcement of rules in any other situations. Of course this is an entirely different discussion altogether. This is just my observations of the current situation regaring the servers rules, suprisingly in terms of raiding AND non-raiding situations.


For example, I mean just 2 weeks ago I watched a monk train a guildy 4 times (3 of which caught on fraps) blatantly intentionally, petition was made and fraps submitted. Gm response was that fraps isn't used as evidence by gms when trying to determine if a train was intentional. This is the exact opposite of what another GM regularly states in situations identical to this one. Perhaps current GMs are like too compartmentalized, because it seems on this occasion they were in direct contradiction of one another.


I just really hope some kind of reform is made in regards to enforcement of rules and consistency of rules before velious drops, otherwise it is going to be utter anarchy there.

[Autotune]

but they wont be looking forward to luclin.....

Nope, but Nilbog already talked about doing custom content that is in style of classic.

[quido]

I like raiding on P99.

[Alarti0001]

Nope, but Nilbog already talked about doing custom content that is in style of classic.

which no one is going to hang around for 3 years waiting on.....lol

[Alarti0001]

I don't think this server currently has a big enough staff capable of enforcing the current rules on this server, as evidenced by such things as FTE shouts being implemented, training still being allowed in VP 2 + years after kunark release, and the generally chaotic atmosphere on the server during raids or even in primetime exp zones.

There are people regularly breaking server rules going unpunished, and its getting old. Furthermore I think releasing velious prior to hammering out any problems with kunark would be detrimental to the box in general.

I mean who wants to log on when they have limited time to begin with, and there's a risk they will be trained repeatedly without any hope for recourse. If you aren't a solo class p99 becomes much more difficult because you end up having to rely on groups. When you are reliant on others, it takes time to get exp flowing, and you will be very disappointed when you put that time in only to have your session ruined by some asshole who trains without hesitation (intentionally or not) because there are no repercussions.


Sure, there was training on live which may have at times been inevitable. But repeatedly and blatantly training people was something that always went enforced on live.


Ps, I would support new GMs who's sole purpose was enforcing the servers rules fairly across guild lines, and one who displayed consistency with their decisions. There are many instances in the past where rules/rulings are changed and reversed on the fly or instances of one GM saying one thing and another GM saying something that is the complete opposite. Stuff like this needs to be minimalized, especially considering the level of trust amongst players for server staff members following past GM's indiscretions. Not trying to take a shot at any current GMs here but from what I've seen lately they have their plates full, p99 blue could probably use another 2 gms. One could be dedicated to raiding enforcement while the other handles enforcement of rules in any other situations. Of course this is an entirely different discussion altogether. This is just my observations of the current situation regaring the servers rules, suprisingly in terms of raiding AND non-raiding situations.


For example, I mean just 2 weeks ago I watched a monk train a guildy 4 times (3 of which caught on fraps) blatantly intentionally, petition was made and fraps submitted. Gm response was that fraps isn't used as evidence by gms when trying to determine if a train was intentional. This is the exact opposite of what another GM regularly states in situations identical to this one. Perhaps current GMs are like too compartmentalized, because it seems on this occasion they were in direct contradiction of one another.


I just really hope some kind of reform is made in regards to enforcement of rules and consistency of rules before velious drops, otherwise it is going to be utter anarchy there.

lol i liked seeing your edit for fact checking.

[kaev]

p99 raiding isn't broken

Close, but no cigar. To be truly :classic: you must say:

p99 raiding is working as intended

[porigromus]

which no one is going to hang around for 3 years waiting on.....lol

Oh yah what other mmo will you play instead? They all suck compared to old eq

[Llodd]

Oh yah what other mmo will you play instead? They all suck compared to old eq

My irony meter just exploded

[Rhambuk]

Only read the title. Very accurate, but P1999 itself is nothing like classic. Just the setting.....

[Rhambuk]

I like raiding on P99.

Love the new sig,

Jeremy irons, Bruce lee?, Tom Dubois possessed by stinkmeaner, bevis christ, gangstalicious, and is that mayor gubbin at the end?

[Kika Maslyaka]

http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2001/gu_20010326.jpg

[Syft]

<Nihilum> doesn't raid for gear, they raid to stop other people from getting it, they are literally scared to death of what anyone else would do if they got geared up.

WTF you think they have 16 selo's drums rotting in a bag instead of selling them!

[Tasslehofp99]

Love the new sig,

Jeremy irons, Bruce lee?, Tom Dubois possessed by stinkmeaner, bevis christ, gangstalicious, and is that mayor gubbin at the end?

That's me! In some weird way that sig, and the character Jeremy created in my honor "Tasslehoff" is his way of showing his appreciation of me! Or something.... :o

[Autotune]

which no one is going to hang around for 3 years waiting on.....lol

yeah, they wouldn't do it for velious either

[fastboy21]

which no one is going to hang around for 3 years waiting on.....lol

it is prob a lot faster to create custom content than meticulously trying to recreate an exact copy of something from 10+ years ago. of course, that doesn't mean that it will be good or that everyone will agree that it is "classic style content". i doubt it would take any where near as long as the regular expansion releases though, assuming he actually goes this route at all.

[Morgander]

Heh exactly... why do you play on p99 if you wanna custom everything to "make the experience better"... just pick a customized server. We're playing real Everquest here

TLDR: EQ isn't P1999, they're not even really that similar in a whole lot of ways. The community should come together to solve these problems. Uber guilds should still have their cake and eat it too, but not dominate so badly that nobody else ever gets a slice. Poop-socking is gay.

And the long read:

Well for starters, this isn't real Everquest. This is an Everquest classic emulated server in which a large amount of the mechanics and a majority of the database were pieced together by tidbits of information from sites like Allakhazam's.

The EQEmu databases are so bonkers messed up that virtually nobody I have ever spoken with actually understands HOW messed up they actually are.

The actual EQ database for example, had certain caster words and runes only drop from certain mobs. In the EQEmu database pieced together from what data the developers could even get their hands on, that kind of drop information is stretched out across literally hundreds of mobs. It used to be that mobs shared loot tables, especially for common mobs and loot tables to say that one zone might have a few dozen loot tables. The current database uses more along the lines of THOUSANDS of loot tables, because it's such a huge mess that nobody would even want to open the thing to clean it up; it's literally that messed up.

The EQEmu servers are good physical representations of classic Everquest, because the original data from a bonified client was used. We have the proper zones, the correct textures, wire frames, animations, spell effects and the like. What's missing from the client though is the entirety of the database.

This includes where mobs spawn, how often they spawn, where they path, what they drop, what their actual statistics are... We're running on information in which some of it is more accurate and some of it is a BLATANT GUESS by the developers: no bullshit people.

Many things don't even work at all how they should in fact. Resists are most assuredly not actually working like they did in live because the devs have no idea what the actual professional EQ developers had used for their original database mechanics. Hell, the CURRENT EQ developers haven't a clue anymore, because all that data has been rewritten a long time ago and several times since. It's very, VERY assured that how armor class and avoidance is calculated is quite a bit off if not broken all together, and many features that existed for quite a long time on live, do not function here; such as:

Night vision; boats; particle effects (they don't work properly here); stamina bars; pet windows; the incorrect UI; item linking--just to name a few.

This isn't to say that the P1999 guys haven't done the best job they could with the resources they had, but that's neither here nor there. This server is at best, a "fair" representation of classic EQ. It LOOKS like classic EQ, it smells SORTA like classic EQ, but if you had the opportunity to sit side by side and actually compare the two, you'd find out that aside from what's on the surface and a whole lot of experimental fudging of numbers to get mechanics close, that they're pretty much nothing alike.

So at best this is a close representation of Everquest, one in which we really have to realize that without changes, cannot really function in this day and probably have the ability to stay very alive for very long.

We all know so much about mmo's now than we did in 1999-2001. We know so much more about Everquest now.

And a huge factor to consider is that while we the players have had upwards to the last 14 years to come up with strategies, techniques and ways to "handle" Everquest, the developers originally just didn't have that kind of foresight.

The original development didn't even assume EQ would be a success for longer than maybe a year or two. There weren't plans to pump out expansions. There was no way to predict how players would behave in regards to specific situations such as raiding content, and you can see COUNTLESS changes made over the years with the SOLE PURPOSE of ensuring that the playerbase was not, very most literally, abusing the other playerbase.

Some examples are for instance, how they added new epic drop mobs to otherwise ultra-contested mobs like VS or Innoruuk. Or how Velious mobs had their HP jump from 32,000 to several hundred, and plopped many of them in places where you just couldn't walk right in, like you can with Trak or VS.

Verant and then SoE made change after change to what they both felt at the time was in their best interest, and their best interest was in keeping the game engaging for the majority of the playerbase. This means of course that you keep the majority happy. Not the top raiding guilds, not the lowest newbies, but the general populace who most of which would end up doing some raiding.

As much as I love just EQ and do not want it to change, things do require change. At the very least, we must have rules and regulations that conform to new ways of thinking. We have to stop ultra-powerful guilds who dominate content and then use the ideology that "they're the best so if you want to compete you better bring your A-Game" as some kind of "nobody else deserves anything but us" mentality.

Also, sub guilds need to ensure that these guilds aren't being bullied by the lesser guilds to make their deeds go un-rewarded.

There's an idea I once read in a book that I felt very true. The idea was that to have great strength of arms, you must train for years and years. The training, the dedication, the pain--this drilled into you not only pride, but prowess. In doing this, the true warrior knows what the lesser fighter would never know had that same power be given unto him: He would never, without that hardship and experience, understand that though he has great strength, that he must judge most assuredly of all, when and where to use it.

That I feel is where we're failing here. We have uber people who have no idea how to use their power, and we have lesser uber people who do not want to work for it.

I would have hoped that this community could come together and at least agree to do something to help keep raiding fun for the most uber, but not have them dominate the server so badly that once you go beyond the 2nd or 3rd top guilds, you just never get anything or any hope at raid content.

And plus, poop-socking is super gay.

EDIT: Poop-socking is SUPER gay.

AND: Poop-socking is still super ultra gay.

Oh, and if you're gay, that's totally cool. I'm not talking about legit homosexuals. Just putting that out there just in case ;)

[Godefroi]

TLDR: [...]

And plus, poop-socking is super gay.

[Alarti0001]

Oh yah what other mmo will you play instead? They all suck compared to old eq

it is prob a lot faster to create custom content than meticulously trying to recreate an exact copy of something from 10+ years ago. of course, that doesn't mean that it will be good or that everyone will agree that it is "classic style content". i doubt it would take any where near as long as the regular expansion releases though, assuming he actually goes this route at all.

This server is mostly nostalgia driven. When it comes right down to it EQ isnt that good of a game anymore, the raids aren't especially challenging, and the grind gets monotonous.
What keeps this game alive is nostalgia and community. New custom content is not... Nostalgic. That coupled with some of the new MMO's will begin pulling the community away. After some time when TMO and other raid guilds have done the raids they want to do enough they will leave. Custom content is not going to keep this server pop high

[Alarti0001]

yeah, they wouldn't do it for velious either

But they have.....

[Tiddlywinks]

In your opinion, and because that benefits you.

Since we now have FTE rules & FTE shouts, poopsocking doesn't lead to the same issues as in the past. Poopsocking would become rampant, until all partie agree to play another way.

About time they remove variance.

[Tiddlywinks]

But they have.....

Moran

[Tiddlywinks]

As much as I love just EQ and do not want it to change, things do require change.

Bullshit. People that think this are the entire reason so many people quit playing on this server/project.

Stop changing classic EverQuest. Stop creating threads to lobby for changes that YOU want. Stop trying to alter rules because they don't cater to YOU. Stop saying poop-socking is gay and acknowledging rules to avoid it when, if this were a classic EQ server with known spawn times, poopsocking WOULD be occuring until the PLAYERS decided to do things differently. Stop all the bullshit.

People want to play classic EverQuest, and they spend 59 levels enjoying the recreation that the devs and community members that post in the bugs section have worked so HARD to attempt to recreate, only to achieve the 60th level, begin raiding and see that it is NOT CLASSIC.

Some keep playing and come here to lobby and try to change the game to better suit them, while a good majority just get sick of it, realize it's not the game that they played 14 years ago and quit, often bemoaning the fact that it's not classic.

The thing that keeps ruining it for all of those players are those who have NO INTEREST in raiding classic EQ because it's not "fun" and doesn't benefit them personally.

Addressing the issues of a non-classic playerbase by changing core game mechanics everyone came here to relive is wrong.

[Morgander]

Bullshit. People that think this are the entire reason so many people quit playing on this server/project.

Stop changing classic EverQuest. Stop creating threads to lobby for changes that YOU want. Stop trying to alter rules because they don't cater to YOU. Stop saying poop-socking is gay and acknowledging rules to avoid it when, if this were a classic EQ server with known spawn times, poopsocking WOULD be occuring until the PLAYERS decided to do things differently. Stop all the bullshit.

People want to play classic EverQuest, and they spend 59 levels enjoying the recreation that the devs and community members that post in the bugs section have worked so HARD to attempt to recreate, only to achieve the 60th level, begin raiding and see that it is NOT CLASSIC.

Some keep playing and come here to lobby and try to change the game to better suit them, while a good majority just get sick of it, realize it's not the game that they played 14 years ago and quit, often bemoaning the fact that it's not classic.

The thing that keeps ruining it for all of those players are those who have NO INTEREST in raiding classic EQ because it's not "fun" and doesn't benefit them personally.

Addressing the issues of a non-classic playerbase by changing core game mechanics everyone came here to relive is wrong.

You couldn't have read half of the posts I've written here (and I don't blame you, it's a lot of read) and still state this.

You don't know me, my characters, or what guild(s) I'm in. Let's just say I have had or still have several level 60 characters, many exceptionally well equipped, and that I am or have been in the top guilds on the server (including TMO).

Your post simply states that you've implied that I'm not getting enough loot and therefore I want change. What you're not following is a two-fold experience of mine: First-fold: Not playing the game to play the game is not fun. I don't care who you are, it's not fun. Second-fold: I want to see everyone have opportunity, NOT just me and mine.

You're talking about keeping things classic, but they already are the farthest thing from! We have FTE rules that did NOT exist in classic! They've NEVER existed and still do not today! We have arbitrary rules that the server maintainers had to create, and let me be SO VERY CLEAR on this point: JUST TO PREVENT ALL THE ARGUING, TRAINING OF ONE ANOTHER, POTENTIAL KILL STEALING ATTEMPTS, AND OTHER NEFARIOUS BEHAVIOR FROM GUILD TO GUILD JUST TO MAKE RAIDING EVEN VIABLE ON THIS SERVER.

THAT'S how bad things are! I can't believe there are some out there that have not reached that conclusion. Think about that for a minute. We actually have ARTIFICIAL RULES to make sure that raiding isn't SO BULLCRAP right now as to make it completely ridiculous!

How would you handle most of the raid content in this game if not for imposing rules? Have you seen a VS spawn lately? When 5 guilds show up and your 40 people kill him but the group of 4 get the kill, should they get the loot? Then the game becomes a fight of, (do we engage or not? Because someone else might kill steal it.) So what do you do? Just "let everything work itself out?"

What about the original rules imposed in classic EQ? Do they have any place? What about training and kill stealing? What about multiple character boxing? Where do you draw the line? Where do you not?

You can NOT have an Everquest server without rules that would not destroy itself in a relatively short time. You just can't. Nobody will raid when every single fight it's just random luck as to which group of DPS gets the physical kill and loots. If not for the rules, people would train you just to take your Fungi King camp, or hell, JUST FOR FUN!

Most people won't individually, but once you get to the guild level they sure as hell will. You're explicitly nieve if you believe that not to be the case. I've seen with my own eyes situations in guilds ranging from TMO to FE to BDA where a member of each guild has--at their own will--specifically made a training attempt on another guild just to hope to garner a given raid kill. This has been in each case, AGAINST the will of the guild of which they were apart! Once you get people into that group mentality, their desires, goals, and willpower completely shift. Good people start to make poor choices.

Let me be clear about one absolute fact: This server MUST have rules and MUST be policed. Period.

THIS is why I propagate better rules. THIS is why I discuss (not demand, not berate, not even assume they're the best ideas) the current rule and raid structures out there.

I know it's hard to believe that there are some hardcore players out there who actually want what's best for everyone and who want to see more selflessness out there--I really know it's so hard to grasp--but it's true none the less.

I have a bunch of characters, so I can sock and play, but not everyone CAN.

I also have tons of super valuable items, some of the most valuable in the game to date, but not everyone has even a tiny opportunity at them, and that's not always because they don't play hard, put in the time or energy, or because they don't deserve it!

I'm all for time and energy equates to success. I've been a martial artist for years in the real world. I practice two branches of the traditional Chinese Shaolin martial arts. The Chinese have a saying about Kung Fu. They say that everything is Kung Fu. Kung Fu roughly translates to time and energy. I train for hours a day for years to hone my body, my mind, and my experiences to the Shaolin arts. The monks of old trained from sunrise to sunset, rigorously in ways we in the West could not even imagine. Believe me when I say that these concepts are NOT lost on me.

But what we're doing on this server is taking some people who DO devote the time and energy, and we're ostracizing them because we see them as inferior to us and not worthy of even the opportunities because we've taken them all for ourselves.

These elitist attitudes of digital uberness must stop. It is always better to be the better person. To be honest, forgiving, empathetic, sympathetic, and selfless.

These things are virtues of goodness, and I cannot imagine a reason not nefarious as to why anyone would object to this kind of ideology.

[Enxienty]

You couldn't have read half of the posts I've written here (and I don't blame you, it's a lot of read) and still state this.

You don't know me, my characters, or what guild(s) I'm in. Let's just say I have had or still have several level 60 characters, many exceptionally well equipped, and that I am or have been in the top guilds on the server (including TMO).

Your post simply states that you've implied that I'm not getting enough loot and therefore I want change. What you're not following is a two-fold experience of mine: First-fold: Not playing the game to play the game is not fun. I don't care who you are, it's not fun. Second-fold: I want to see everyone have opportunity, NOT just me and mine.

I know it's hard to believe that there are some hardcore players out there who actually want what's best for everyone and who want to see more selflessness out there--I really know it's so hard to grasp--but it's true none the less.

I have a bunch of characters, so I can sock and play, but not everyone CAN.

I also have tons of super valuable items, some of the most valuable in the game to date, but not everyone has even a tiny opportunity at them, and that's not always because they don't play hard, put in the time or energy, or because they don't deserve it!

I'm all for time and energy equates to success. I've been a martial artist for years in the real world. I practice two branches of the traditional Chinese Shaolin martial arts. The Chinese have a saying about Kung Fu. They say that everything is Kung Fu. Kung Fu roughly translates to time and energy. I train for hours a day for years to hone my body, my mind, and my experiences to the Shaolin arts. The monks of old trained from sunrise to sunset, rigorously in ways we in the West could not even imagine. Believe me when I say that these concepts are NOT lost on me.

But what we're doing on this server is taking some people who DO devote the time and energy, and we're ostracizing them because we see them as inferior to us and not worthy of even the opportunities because we've taken them all for ourselves.

These elitist attitudes of digital uberness must stop. It is always better to be the better person. To be honest, forgiving, empathetic, sympathetic, and selfless.

These things are virtues of goodness, and I cannot imagine a reason not nefarious as to why anyone would object to this kind of ideology.


I love you

[Autotune]

You couldn't have read half of the posts I've written here (and I don't blame you, it's a lot of read) and still state this.

You don't know me, my characters, or what guild(s) I'm in. Let's just say I have had or still have several level 60 characters, many exceptionally well equipped, and that I am or have been in the top guilds on the server (including TMO).

Your post simply states that you've implied that I'm not getting enough loot and therefore I want change. What you're not following is a two-fold experience of mine: First-fold: Not playing the game to play the game is not fun. I don't care who you are, it's not fun. Second-fold: I want to see everyone have opportunity, NOT just me and mine.

You're talking about keeping things classic, but they already are the farthest thing from! We have FTE rules that did NOT exist in classic! They've NEVER existed and still do not today! We have arbitrary rules that the server maintainers had to create, and let me be SO VERY CLEAR on this point: JUST TO PREVENT ALL THE ARGUING, TRAINING OF ONE ANOTHER, POTENTIAL KILL STEALING ATTEMPTS, AND OTHER NEFARIOUS BEHAVIOR FROM GUILD TO GUILD JUST TO MAKE RAIDING EVEN VIABLE ON THIS SERVER.

THAT'S how bad things are! I can't believe there are some out there that have not reached that conclusion. Think about that for a minute. We actually have ARTIFICIAL RULES to make sure that raiding isn't SO BULLCRAP right now as to make it completely ridiculous!

How would you handle most of the raid content in this game if not for imposing rules? Have you seen a VS spawn lately? When 5 guilds show up and your 40 people kill him but the group of 4 get the kill, should they get the loot? Then the game becomes a fight of, (do we engage or not? Because someone else might kill steal it.) So what do you do? Just "let everything work itself out?"

What about the original rules imposed in classic EQ? Do they have any place? What about training and kill stealing? What about multiple character boxing? Where do you draw the line? Where do you not?

You can NOT have an Everquest server without rules that would not destroy itself in a relatively short time. You just can't. Nobody will raid when every single fight it's just random luck as to which group of DPS gets the physical kill and loots. If not for the rules, people would train you just to take your Fungi King camp, or hell, JUST FOR FUN!

Most people won't individually, but once you get to the guild level they sure as hell will. You're explicitly nieve if you believe that not to be the case. I've seen with my own eyes situations in guilds ranging from TMO to FE to BDA where a member of each guild has--at their own will--specifically made a training attempt on another guild just to hope to garner a given raid kill. This has been in each case, AGAINST the will of the guild of which they were apart! Once you get people into that group mentality, their desires, goals, and willpower completely shift. Good people start to make poor choices.

Let me be clear about one absolute fact: This server MUST have rules and MUST be policed. Period.

THIS is why I propagate better rules. THIS is why I discuss (not demand, not berate, not even assume they're the best ideas) the current rule and raid structures out there.

I know it's hard to believe that there are some hardcore players out there who actually want what's best for everyone and who want to see more selflessness out there--I really know it's so hard to grasp--but it's true none the less.

I have a bunch of characters, so I can sock and play, but not everyone CAN.

I also have tons of super valuable items, some of the most valuable in the game to date, but not everyone has even a tiny opportunity at them, and that's not always because they don't play hard, put in the time or energy, or because they don't deserve it!

I'm all for time and energy equates to success. I've been a martial artist for years in the real world. I practice two branches of the traditional Chinese Shaolin martial arts. The Chinese have a saying about Kung Fu. They say that everything is Kung Fu. Kung Fu roughly translates to time and energy. I train for hours a day for years to hone my body, my mind, and my experiences to the Shaolin arts. The monks of old trained from sunrise to sunset, rigorously in ways we in the West could not even imagine. Believe me when I say that these concepts are NOT lost on me.

But what we're doing on this server is taking some people who DO devote the time and energy, and we're ostracizing them because we see them as inferior to us and not worthy of even the opportunities because we've taken them all for ourselves.

These elitist attitudes of digital uberness must stop. It is always better to be the better person. To be honest, forgiving, empathetic, sympathetic, and selfless.

These things are virtues of goodness, and I cannot imagine a reason not nefarious as to why anyone would object to this kind of ideology.

If you've been around and have geared characters like you say you have, then you'd already know why TMO isn't going to give any ground on free raid mobs for other guilds. You'd know you were wasting your breath trying to convince any of them in power of that as well.

You're either a liar or delusional, possibly both.

[Morgander]

If you've been around and have geared characters like you say you have, then you'd already know why TMO isn't going to give any ground on free raid mobs for other guilds. You'd know you were wasting your breath trying to convince any of them in power of that as well.

You're either a liar or delusional, possibly both.

It isn't even so much that TMO is so elitist that they won't share. It's that they don't trust the other guilds to share either.

I know that there are many in TMO who would give up content time and again to other guilds striving for things. The thing is, how do they dictate to that guild that they can have this opportunity when there's always another looking-to-be-the-most-uber guild out there who hates their competition so VIVIDLY that they will disregard anything TMO or any other guild prospectively chose just to get that next kill?

The race has become so fervent in peoples minds that they've disregarded any prospects of sharing, because nobody trusts anybody else.

Making change will either take one or two things: It will either take, low and behold, ALL of the major raid guilds to stop fighting and hating each other so much that they can work things out as a single community team, OR, server GM rule intervention.

I would prefer the server just find good reasonable ways to share with each other, I really would. There's just so much distaste for others here that it's become such a trial.

Hell, we can't even have an open-ended discussion about it without several dozen posts basically all saying: You're a dick. I disagree because you're an idiot. "You suck". "I'm leet you're newb stfu!", and the like.

I mean come on, I can't even make a genuine reply about doing the right thing without being called a delusional liar. Is that how far we as a community have fallen?

[Tiddlywinks]

You couldn't have read half of the posts I've written here (and I don't blame you, it's a lot of read) and still state this.

You don't know me, my characters, or what guild(s) I'm in. Let's just say I have had or still have several level 60 characters, many exceptionally well equipped, and that I am or have been in the top guilds on the server (including TMO).

Your post simply states that you've implied that I'm not getting enough loot and therefore I want change. What you're not following is a two-fold experience of mine: First-fold: Not playing the game to play the game is not fun. I don't care who you are, it's not fun. Second-fold: I want to see everyone have opportunity, NOT just me and mine.

You're talking about keeping things classic, but they already are the farthest thing from! We have FTE rules that did NOT exist in classic! They've NEVER existed and still do not today! We have arbitrary rules that the server maintainers had to create, and let me be SO VERY CLEAR on this point: JUST TO PREVENT ALL THE ARGUING, TRAINING OF ONE ANOTHER, POTENTIAL KILL STEALING ATTEMPTS, AND OTHER NEFARIOUS BEHAVIOR FROM GUILD TO GUILD JUST TO MAKE RAIDING EVEN VIABLE ON THIS SERVER.

THAT'S how bad things are! I can't believe there are some out there that have not reached that conclusion. Think about that for a minute. We actually have ARTIFICIAL RULES to make sure that raiding isn't SO BULLCRAP right now as to make it completely ridiculous!

How would you handle most of the raid content in this game if not for imposing rules? Have you seen a VS spawn lately? When 5 guilds show up and your 40 people kill him but the group of 4 get the kill, should they get the loot? Then the game becomes a fight of, (do we engage or not? Because someone else might kill steal it.) So what do you do? Just "let everything work itself out?"

What about the original rules imposed in classic EQ? Do they have any place? What about training and kill stealing? What about multiple character boxing? Where do you draw the line? Where do you not?

You can NOT have an Everquest server without rules that would not destroy itself in a relatively short time. You just can't. Nobody will raid when every single fight it's just random luck as to which group of DPS gets the physical kill and loots. If not for the rules, people would train you just to take your Fungi King camp, or hell, JUST FOR FUN!

Most people won't individually, but once you get to the guild level they sure as hell will. You're explicitly nieve if you believe that not to be the case. I've seen with my own eyes situations in guilds ranging from TMO to FE to BDA where a member of each guild has--at their own will--specifically made a training attempt on another guild just to hope to garner a given raid kill. This has been in each case, AGAINST the will of the guild of which they were apart! Once you get people into that group mentality, their desires, goals, and willpower completely shift. Good people start to make poor choices.

Let me be clear about one absolute fact: This server MUST have rules and MUST be policed. Period.

THIS is why I propagate better rules. THIS is why I discuss (not demand, not berate, not even assume they're the best ideas) the current rule and raid structures out there.

I know it's hard to believe that there are some hardcore players out there who actually want what's best for everyone and who want to see more selflessness out there--I really know it's so hard to grasp--but it's true none the less.

I have a bunch of characters, so I can sock and play, but not everyone CAN.

I also have tons of super valuable items, some of the most valuable in the game to date, but not everyone has even a tiny opportunity at them, and that's not always because they don't play hard, put in the time or energy, or because they don't deserve it!

I'm all for time and energy equates to success. I've been a martial artist for years in the real world. I practice two branches of the traditional Chinese Shaolin martial arts. The Chinese have a saying about Kung Fu. They say that everything is Kung Fu. Kung Fu roughly translates to time and energy. I train for hours a day for years to hone my body, my mind, and my experiences to the Shaolin arts. The monks of old trained from sunrise to sunset, rigorously in ways we in the West could not even imagine. Believe me when I say that these concepts are NOT lost on me.

But what we're doing on this server is taking some people who DO devote the time and energy, and we're ostracizing them because we see them as inferior to us and not worthy of even the opportunities because we've taken them all for ourselves.

These elitist attitudes of digital uberness must stop. It is always better to be the better person. To be honest, forgiving, empathetic, sympathetic, and selfless.

These things are virtues of goodness, and I cannot imagine a reason not nefarious as to why anyone would object to this kind of ideology.


I've read every post in this thread including yours. I don't care whether your angle is "you want more loot" or "you want better rules" the point is you are out for SOMETHING and therefor biased.

The rules on a classic EverQuest server should be classic, and if that drives away the players because they aren't having fun then so be it. For some reason the devs seem to have made a decision to make things fun and engaging for players as opposed to accurate. They're walking a line and attempting to balance the two, and what we get is a bastardized version of both.

A classic EverQuest server with 300 players on it is better than a non-classic EverQuest server with 1500.

Plus, I don't exactly subscribe to the notion that people would stop playing because poopsocking isn't fun. Most of this thread and this server seems to be people that explicitly don't raid because variance isn't fun and they don't want to track things 24/7.

Using classic rulesets and mechanics, how could things POSSIBLY get worse when 95% of the people who could compete for mobs chose not to because of artificial systems put in place? At least those 95% would have as equal a shot at a FTE or KS as the 5% that do raid currently. Everyone would spend a hell of a lot less time tracking too.

Most importantly though, it would be classic.

What's so wrong about that?

[Tycko]

It isn't even so much that TMO is so elitist that they won't share. It's that they don't trust the other guilds to share either.

This is not true.

[quido]

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTD6mq69d6WH5YF-AZYHk-2PKF_r64oPaJ-gARHxydj0c-ptRr5zw

[fishingme]

I think the main problem is when there's 150-200 raiders in one guild, 80 in the next and so on so forth. It stops competition, barely lets new guilds start up that have their eyes on raiding. The server is more or less a low-pop server and the only guilds who can really compete are the longest standing ones. Just doesn't give new guilds much of a chance to get into the raiding scene, especially with the more casual raiders. Now TMO / whatever other guild is 2nd now may have "jobs" and "lives" but they also have upwards of 100 raiders, so you can easily drop the 30-40 people who may have real life complications out and still have an effective zerg force which is what higher end raiding has become. No skill, no fun just going into a raid with an overwhelming force and dropping the target in a few seconds. That's not competition, competition is suppose to be something hard not a cake walk.

[fishingme]

I mean no offense to TMO, but quite frankly you all are the biggest guild of dbags here and easy to use as examples. But you're all for the most part, posers because you're all followers and not leaders. Guild splits were common in classic for more competition/change of playstyle. The dirty flame war talking is getting a bit old, show your shit and split into more than one guild and find out how good you really are.

[Yapas]

Funny how peoples judges so easily TMO players without even know them!

QQ will change nothing.. If you want to kill something move your fat ass..

[Elmarnieh]

I still don't see what could possibly be fun about getting batphoned at 3am to log in and kill a mob for the 1,000th time, when you know every single possible drop is either going to someone's 7th alt or going to be sold in EC for plat. How useful can plat possibly be when you literally have an endless amount of it and control the market on 90% of high end items?

I guess some guild's sole purpose on killing mobs these days is to cockblock what they would consider "lower" guilds from progressing and closing the gear gap pre-Velious. I could be wrong, but from my very limited time on this server, this seems to be the only logical reasoning.

Pretty darn fun the first time thought :)

[Faisca]

The rules on a classic EverQuest server should be classic, and if that drives away the players because they aren't having fun then so be it.


That’s not what this server is supposed to be about.

This project is about giving people the opportunity to experience classic Everquest, and there are many players who didn’t have and still don’t have that opportunity because of the way the raiding is right now.

If this was a commercial game, it could be considered denial of service.

Anyway, the dispute over contested content here has nothing to do with what happened in the classic era. Not only there weren’t as many high level characters, nor there was this much knowledge about the game, but Kunark only lasted 8 months, then Velious came out.

In here, Kunark has been around for 2 and a half years now.

If people want to experience contested classic Everquest in Kunark era as it was back in the day, it already happened a long time ago here in P99 and what’s going on right now IT’S NOT IT and IT’S NOT FUN for anyone.

[Nirgon]

"I don't have full VP loot so its not classic or fun"

You people are WoW generationeers and pixel brain washed.

I also know that you fail to realize that except for one or two guilds, DURING KUNARK that raid mobs were very similarly monopolized except on servers where they agreed to rotations. Even still, not a small of the population was wearing full planar sets for their class.

This server has been in Kunark for 2-3 times as long as the initial time line, its top heavy with characters who want to raid.

Back in Planes of Power, people were still doing their epics (hoping they'd catch the mob up too no less), finishing or just getting into plane of fear etc. If you played during this time, and were able to get Trakanon kills etc with your guild, its because the guilds like TMO were busy working on (overtuned / broken in many cases!) PoP progression/farming.

I refuse to believe, because it is literally impossible due to the lack of instancing, that in the span of people figuring out EQ from live to the end of Velious, that your server had everyone getting a chance at every raid mob.

Learn to be happy playing without a Crown of Rile. Seriously.

Edit/PS: People who play 10 times as much as you have more pixels, I wonder how that works. You guys can't seem to figure it out.

[Raavak]

Edit/PS: People who play 10 times as much as you have more pixels, I wonder how that works. You guys can't seem to figure it out.I like when people say only no-lifes will get up for a 3AM batphone, then in another post complain about not getting a fair chance at lewt. Major disconnect.

[Nirgon]

Only no lifes get up at 3am for a batphone.

Posted while sitting at VS spawn for 16 hours.

Just get over the pixels already, Christ.

[ncapatina]

I never ceases to amazing me that people come here, knowing full well what this server is about and then proceed to do nothing but bitch about it. There are dozens of other emu servers around that cater to what you're asking for.

And this is coming from a newer player who likely will never have a shot at joining a top end raiding guild. There is nothing more classic than a single uberguild monopolizing content.

[Nirgon]

Gabuk,

Does 1 guild getting almost everything, another guild getting a few things and a few guilds raiding planar set drops sound NOT classic to you?

[Faisca]

The point I was trying to make is that, in EQ live, 2 and a half years after Kunark, it was well past POP era. By that time, there was nowhere near the dispute there is in P99 for Kunark raid targets.

I can understand people wanting the contested content experience, but those who wanted this already had that opportunity.

But that ship has sailed a long time ago, and what is happening right now, is groups of powerful players blocking others from reliving EQ experience.

Why don’t they just plant AOE casters in all newbie zones, and keep them clean to prevent everyone else from playing the game, so they can have the game and the server for themselves?

Guessing from some people’s arguments, this would also be fair game to them.

If raiding like this was all there was to EQ I would have never played that game and yes, WOW raiding beats EQ classic raiding hands down.

[Yapas]

There is nothing more classic than a single uberguild monopolizing content.

Amen.

they are just blinded by hatred and maybe even of jealousy.

Like I say sometimes in French : Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe.

[Nirgon]

People who raided Kunark/Velious in PoP: Mad

People who raided Kunark/Velious in Kunark/Velious: understand

[Velerin]

wow, I just spent way too much of my life reading this thread. I probably will never get to raiding levels on this server so it doesn't really bother me but I can understand from both sides. One side wants small guilds to be able to experience raids once in a while, the other side puts in the work and doesn't want to give it away for free.

The only thing I don't really get is if you have all the gear you need and raids in Kunark really aren't challenging or very fun at all really what's the fun of it?
1. Getting there first to be the best? (block others from getting)
2. Putting another item in guildbank for sale (what does millions in the bank even buy or is there a Scrooge McDuck swimming around in it all somewhere for fun)
3. Gearing up alts or new recruits?
(None of these things could ever get me personally to wake up at 3am, have a lousy tired day at work the next day to do, but to each their own)

I guess that's the question that puzzles me.

[Alarti0001]

People who raided Kunark/Velious in PoP: Mad

People who raided Kunark/Velious in Kunark/Velious: understand

^^ This ^^

[Faisca]

2. Putting another item in guildbank for sale (what does millions in the bank even buy or is there a Scrooge McDuck swimming around in it all somewhere for fun)


You're getting close. It is really to put something in the bank. ;)

[Strifer]

People who raided Kunark/Velious in PoP: Mad

People who raided Kunark/Velious in Kunark/Velious: understand

ONLY 90's KIDS WILL UNDERSTAND!

[Tiddlywinks]

Why do people care that one guild monopolizing content is classic when mechanics that allow it on this server such as variance are not?

I think people are more concerned with creating the "there is one guild on top and therefore it is classic" mentality than they are with creating the "variance wasn't classic so it should be removed" mentality.

The example of epics was brought up earlier in the thread. Epics aren't intentionally nerfed and quests aren't changed in order to make it so that there are as few epics on the server as there were during Kunark, so why do we have the non-classic rules in an attempt to create similar outcomes to what we had then for our raid scene?

That doesn't make sense, and I highly doubt it's why Variance and non-classic rules exist in the first place.

[Nirgon]

Now that we have FTE shouts, go ahead and remove variance.

GL on that though considering all the effort that went into it, then revising the extended window.

[Tiddlywinks]

Now that we have FTE shouts, go ahead and remove variance.

GL on that though considering all the effort that went into it, then revising the extended window.

Would be nice, and variance would be huge but would honestly just be a start. There are so many more non-classic things that we could fix.

[Autotune]

Why do people care that one guild monopolizing content is classic when mechanics that allow it on this server such as variance are not?

I think people are more concerned with creating the "there is one guild on top and therefore it is classic" mentality than they are with creating the "variance wasn't classic so it should be removed" mentality.

The example of epics was brought up earlier in the thread. Epics aren't intentionally nerfed and quests aren't changed in order to make it so that there are as few epics on the server as there were during Kunark, so why do we have the non-classic rules in an attempt to create similar outcomes to what we had then for our raid scene?

That doesn't make sense, and I highly doubt it's why Variance and non-classic rules exist in the first place.

Variance would be removed, if it didn't create giant poopsocks. You would be surprised how many of these people "with lives" would instantly become a "No lifer" if they could just park a character at a location and let server mechanics roll for a chance that their guild gets loot.

[Nirgon]

^ tis true.

Would be 130 people+ in a zone sitting at a mob spawn with their duct tape ready.

[ncapatina]

Gabuk,

Does 1 guild getting almost everything, another guild getting a few things and a few guilds raiding planar set drops sound NOT classic to you?

I only played at the high end on two servers, RZ and SZ. Both of those were totally monopolized by a single guild/group. RZ was a little different as a group of guilds formed a raiding coalition, but that was more of a product of the PVP environment I think.

SZ had Ruin and then Hate. By the time I quit in PoP Hate was doing PoTime and there wasn't a single other guild who had made it to t2 gods yet. It was a total and complete monopoly.

Pretty much every evil guild was a feeder for Hate, and the neutral/good teams were locked into content they could faction burn Hate with, or taking out raid targets like Seru that Hate didn't give two shits about.

[ncapatina]

The point I was trying to make is that, in EQ live, 2 and a half years after Kunark, it was well past POP era. By that time, there was nowhere near the dispute there is in P99 for Kunark raid targets.

I can understand people wanting the contested content experience, but those who wanted this already had that opportunity.

But that ship has sailed a long time ago, and what is happening right now, is groups of powerful players blocking others from reliving EQ experience.

Why don’t they just plant AOE casters in all newbie zones, and keep them clean to prevent everyone else from playing the game, so they can have the game and the server for themselves?

Guessing from some people’s arguments, this would also be fair game to them.

If raiding like this was all there was to EQ I would have never played that game and yes, WOW raiding beats EQ classic raiding hands down.

There were also double or triple (maybe more after they stopped posting stats) of people on one of those servers compared to here. This server really isn't that different compared to live when it comes to contested content.

[Nirgon]

Careful they'll tell you that you can't remember things from 13 years ago

[ncapatina]

Amen.

they are just blinded by hatred and maybe even of jealousy.

Like I say sometimes in French : Les chiens aboient, la caravane passe.

It's good to be on the winning side, that will never change. But games nowadays don't want to deal with people raging so they instance content. EQ was a game designed around PVE competition. Look at the polls they are throwing up for EQN, they've specifically asked how much content they should instance.

It's a double edged sword...do you want instanced WoW style content where you farm badges and turn them in every 3-4 weeks (minimum) for a piece of gear you'll then farm 4 more weeks of tokens for to upgrade?

Or do you want to have to fight for the MOBs but get instant gratification?

They realized the predicament in EQ Live which is why Velious is one of the only expansions I can think of released for any MMORPG that didn't include a level cap increase, just additional content. Sure the Velious armor is BiS almost across the board but EQ was one of the few games that didn't completely devalue previous expansion content, at least through Velious. Velious was all about spreading people out and giving more raid targets. It's an entire new continent of 40+ content, 90% of it being max level type stuff.

People really should stop worrying about it. Velious will come. What we should worry about is 4 years after Velious is out...but by then they'll be plenty of time to think up an elegant solution.

[ncapatina]

People who raided Kunark/Velious in PoP: Mad

People who raided Kunark/Velious in Kunark/Velious: understand

+1

[Tiddlywinks]

^ tis true.

Would be 130 people+ in a zone sitting at a mob spawn with their duct tape ready.

Variance would be removed, if it didn't create giant poopsocks. You would be surprised how many of these people "with lives" would instantly become a "No lifer" if they could just park a character at a location and let server mechanics roll for a chance that their guild gets loot.


So?

[ncapatina]

wow, I just spent way too much of my life reading this thread. I probably will never get to raiding levels on this server so it doesn't really bother me but I can understand from both sides. One side wants small guilds to be able to experience raids once in a while, the other side puts in the work and doesn't want to give it away for free.

The only thing I don't really get is if you have all the gear you need and raids in Kunark really aren't challenging or very fun at all really what's the fun of it?
1. Getting there first to be the best? (block others from getting)
2. Putting another item in guildbank for sale (what does millions in the bank even buy or is there a Scrooge McDuck swimming around in it all somewhere for fun)
3. Gearing up alts or new recruits?
(None of these things could ever get me personally to wake up at 3am, have a lousy tired day at work the next day to do, but to each their own)

I guess that's the question that puzzles me.

When you have a game that progression is 100% entirely tied to items why would you be surprised that people play the game to get as many of said items as possible?

[Velerin]

uhhh, I don't think you read my question. I understand EQ is all about items...I said why keep doing it after you have said items?

[Spitty]

Part of being in a raiding guild is operating via the understanding that it's not just about you.

That's why you keep doing it - because your guildmate wants that BP just as badly as you wanted yours, and you have the capacity to help them get it.

You can be that guy that stops raiding once you're equipped out, if you don't mind being labeled a complete fucking douche.

[Yapas]

It's good to be on the winning side, that will never change. But games nowadays don't want to deal with people raging so they instance content. EQ was a game designed around PVE competition. Look at the polls they are throwing up for EQN, they've specifically asked how much content they should instance.

It's a double edged sword...do you want instanced WoW style content where you farm badges and turn them in every 3-4 weeks (minimum) for a piece of gear you'll then farm 4 more weeks of tokens for to upgrade?

Or do you want to have to fight for the MOBs but get instant gratification?

They realized the predicament in EQ Live which is why Velious is one of the only expansions I can think of released for any MMORPG that didn't include a level cap increase, just additional content. Sure the Velious armor is BiS almost across the board but EQ was one of the few games that didn't completely devalue previous expansion content, at least through Velious. Velious was all about spreading people out and giving more raid targets. It's an entire new continent of 40+ content, 90% of it being max level type stuff.

People really should stop worrying about it. Velious will come. What we should worry about is 4 years after Velious is out...but by then they'll be plenty of time to think up an elegant solution.

It is not a question to be in the good "side" or not. If you really want to get some dragons, god etc, you should create or joining any guild with people who has the same goal as you and go.

[Vaildez]

Their definitely wasn't batphoning and Raid targets dropping within 5 min of spawning on my server. I think that's a product of being in Kunark so long that people are so damn geared. There were also plenty of PUGs that raided shit which could never happen here with how quickly targets are killed.

[ncapatina]

Their definitely wasn't batphoning and Raid targets dropping within 5 min of spawning on my server. I think that's a product of being in Kunark so long that people are so damn geared. There were also plenty of PUGs that raided shit which could never happen here with how quickly targets are killed.

You had PUGs killing top tier contested content on your server? I call bullshit. Maybe in PoP people were pugging Trakanon or something.

[Vaildez]

You had PUGs killing top tier contested content on your server? I call bullshit. Maybe in PoP people were pugging Trakanon or something.

Nag/Vox/Hate/Fear. This was happening while Kunark was still fairly new.

[ncapatina]

Nag/Vox/Hate/Fear. This was happening while Kunark was still fairly new.

That's 2nd tier content. The only reason it was puggable was because the top guilds decided they didn't want to kill it.

People have a crystal ball here, they know that CoFs and stuff are going to hold their value forever in the time capsule of project1999. Don't count on pugging Nag/Vox anytime soon.

[Picked]

This is probably going off topic. But it pertains to the P99 raiding scene. I play this emu because it's fun. It is what captured and enamored me many years ago. When I heard about this server all I could think about was man this gives me a chance to see VP finally (since I wasn't able too the first time) I can raid NToV, Dain, AoW, and many other raid mobs in current expansion gear (instead of waiting until the next expansion was out and nobody wanted it anymore). Not all of us have or had the luxury of working from home. Being bat phoned. Spending hours logged in waiting on a spawn while doing something else.

And as I sit here pondering the future, it looks as if it's going to be a repeat. Which I am fine with. I enjoyed EQ for years without seeing that stuff. And I realize why the upper echelon of guilds do what they do. They want to have all the nice gear to themselves that way they don't have to compete with anyone when Velious comes out. They want free range of that gear too. And maybe, if a guild is lucky they will catch these elites working on Velious stuff when VP is popped and finally get a chance. But seeing as how old world dragons and raid zones are still highly contested years after they were released on P99 that doesn't appear to be the case.

I do admire the dedication these guilds put in to keep things this way. I have always been the type of person that says if you want something bad enough do what you have to do to get it. But this is just a game in the end and we all want to enjoy it. And this server is very popular because people want to do the things they never got to. Or they want to do the things they enjoyed so much the first time around.

I just find it disturbing that even after months and years of farming the same raid mobs these upper echelon guilds feel the need to train another guild while trying to engage Ragefire, or CT.

[Luchino]

Grats Taken on Inny kill. They actually did what it takes (camping out/tracking). They were also tracking draco. #2 guild on server imo.

[ncapatina]

And as I sit here pondering the future, it looks as if it's going to be a repeat.

You know the first thing I said in this thread was that it's amazing how people come to this server knowing what it's all about but complain about it anyway.

You're right it is going to be a repeat. That's because that is the INTENTION of this server, to repeat that era. I'm in the same boat as you man, I don't have the time to invest to hang with TMO right now. Maybe never will. But I knew that going in, and I don't see how anyone could think things would be different.

Imagine for a moment that the top tier content guilds decided they've had enough loots and started letting other people kill it. Say goodbye to the majority of the high level population of the server than I guess...

[Tiddlywinks]

Their definitely wasn't batphoning and Raid targets dropping within 5 min of spawning on my server. I think that's a product of being in Kunark so long that people are so damn geared. There were also plenty of PUGs that raided shit which could never happen here with how quickly targets are killed.

There wasn't 4 day variances on your server? Gadzooks.

[Picked]

You know the first thing I said in this thread was that it's amazing how people come to this server knowing what it's all about but complain about it anyway.

You're right it is going to be a repeat. That's because that is the INTENTION of this server, to repeat that era. I'm in the same boat as you man, I don't have the time to invest to hang with TMO right now. Maybe never will. But I knew that going in, and I don't see how anyone could think things would be different.

Imagine for a moment that the top tier content guilds decided they've had enough loots and started letting other people kill it. Say goodbye to the majority of the high level population of the server than I guess...

Oh I agree completely. And like I said I admire their dedication, and am not complaining about it. Just voicing an opinion on the matter at hand. I wonder if in the future the people in charge would be willing to roll a new server where there was guild rotation, and cooperation so the people who want to accomplish these things without being on 24/7 are able to do so.

[Arteker]

There wasn't 4 day variances on your server? Gadzooks.

and euro raider guilds ,p

[Arteker]

I only played at the high end on two servers, RZ and SZ. Both of those were totally monopolized by a single guild/group. RZ was a little different as a group of guilds formed a raiding coalition, but that was more of a product of the PVP environment I think.

SZ had Ruin and then Hate. By the time I quit in PoP Hate was doing PoTime and there wasn't a single other guild who had made it to t2 gods yet. It was a total and complete monopoly.

Pretty much every evil guild was a feeder for Hate, and the neutral/good teams were locked into content they could faction burn Hate with, or taking out raid targets like Seru that Hate didn't give two shits about.

yet 60% of red players did tour stormhammer for get loots and make aas then return lame red servers.

[Arteker]

Why do people care that one guild monopolizing content is classic when mechanics that allow it on this server such as variance are not?

I think people are more concerned with creating the "there is one guild on top and therefore it is classic" mentality than they are with creating the "variance wasn't classic so it should be removed" mentality.

The example of epics was brought up earlier in the thread. Epics aren't intentionally nerfed and quests aren't changed in order to make it so that there are as few epics on the server as there were during Kunark, so why do we have the non-classic rules in an attempt to create similar outcomes to what we had then for our raid scene?

That doesn't make sense, and I highly doubt it's why Variance and non-classic rules exist in the first place.
fear to euro guilds , and you should realy fear them.

[skipdog]

Wow, so many crybabies who apparently expected the server to change when they personally hit 60?

There were plenty of emu servers you could've gone on if you just wanted to 'kill any raid target you want'.

I've never seen so many sore losers in one thread before!

[Autotune]

So?

you would be back here bitching about that instead of what you are now.

or you'd ask for the ability to camp it

then you'd bitch that guild's afk camp mobs for days

and so on.

[ncapatina]

yet 60% of red players did tour stormhammer for get loots and make aas then return lame red servers.

That sorta proves my point. The 60% were the entire good/neutral team. The 40% who stayed were evils either trying to get into Hate or already in.

Hate had such a huge advantage because the rest of the team fell in line. Maybe it was the hard lines splitting the playerbase, but no other guild challenged them on their own team. It's not like you were going to put in a rotation with guilds on the other factions, you were going to do anything you could to stop it. EQ was never meant to have that kind of PVP, there were so many choke points - like keying up for VP for example. All Hate had to do was kill Trak first, PVP and stop another team or just train their asses which was legal on that server. They kept the server in permanent lockdown.

Allowing transfers to/from the legends server was the only way the majority of the server had any chance of getting loot.

[Arteker]

That sorta proves my point. The 60% were the entire good/neutral team. The 40% who stayed were evils either trying to get into Hate or already in.

Hate had such a huge advantage because the rest of the team fell in line. Maybe it was the hard lines splitting the playerbase, but no other guild challenged them on their own team. It's not like you were going to put in a rotation with guilds on the other factions, you were going to do anything you could to stop it. EQ was never meant to have that kind of PVP, there were so many choke points - like keying up for VP for example. All Hate had to do was kill Trak first, PVP and stop another team or just train their asses which was legal on that server. They kept the server in permanent lockdown.

Allowing transfers to/from the legends server was the only way the majority of the server had any chance of getting loot.
lots of zekers applied europa mostly due to them cleansin armour drops in no time before TR leviathan or lame science of war vexare start moving.


Again once europa backflaged most TR applicants for coirnav rathe and beat quarm they plot with leviathan 2 top guild to flag block euros of xegony .

so there was alot of douchebaggery in any level of eq.

in solusek ro server more of the same

[kaev]

...

so there was alot of douchebaggery in any level of eq.

...

Gotta disagree with that. Casual players, i.e. most of the playerbase pre-Velious, you know, the folks who did not poopsock (except effing Ragefire) or train competitors or fill /ooc with retarded shittalk or otherwise live the EQ life of the dickweed douchebagger, those folks generally did not engage in douchebaggery at all. The rise of douchebaggery as a general malaise affecting large swaths of the playerbase was quite gradual thru the original game, accelerated a bit during Kunark, and turned things pretty well to shit in a steady crescendo of childish ugliness during Velious.

[Tiddlywinks]

you would be back here bitching about that instead of what you are now.

or you'd ask for the ability to camp it

then you'd bitch that guild's afk camp mobs for days

and so on.

You obviously don't know me or haven't read any of my posts.

I WANT you fuckers to poopsock if that's what classic rules result in and you can't work out any other way amongst yourselves (read: no gm intervention, players either poopsock and deal with FTE shout to award loot or come up with their own mechanisms within a classic ruleset to handle raid mobs).

Why would anyone care if someone afk camps a mob for days? Who does that hurt exactly? Raid mobs are not awarded based on who has been at their camp/sitting on their spawn point the longest. They are awarded via FTE. If someone wants to camp there for 6 days god bless them. When another guild shows up and snags FTE nobody is hurt by their time wasted but them.

At least the rules/server would be closer to classic.

[Nirgon]

Why would people care if things were AFK camped. You might need to play here a little longer sire.

[Tiddlywinks]

fear to euro guilds , and you should realy fear them.

Fearing euro guilds snagging mobs in the middle of the night.. classic! :)

[Tiddlywinks]

Why would people care if things were AFK camped. You might need to play here a little longer sire.

Raid mobs are awarded via FTE not how long someone is socking them. Read my post.

[Nirgon]

That word camp you used... you could say "sitting there afk".

In which case why would anyone bitch about someone sitting anywhere afk if they aren't camping it?

!?

This thread..

[Autotune]

That word camp you used... you could say "sitting there afk".

In which case why would anyone bitch about someone sitting anywhere afk if they aren't camping it?

!?

This thread..

He hasn't been here long enough or researched p99's history to realize why his posts are idiotic or realize to what I was referring to.

I also like how he keeps harping on variance because it isn't classic and then goes back to mobs being awarded by FTE, good thing raid mobs shout who has FTE now, cause ya know... it's classic.

[Tiddlywinks]

He hasn't been here long enough or researched p99's history to realize why his posts are idiotic or realize to what I was referring to.

I also like how he keeps harping on variance because it isn't classic and then goes back to mobs being awarded by FTE, good thing raid mobs shout who has FTE now, cause ya know... it's classic.

Its funny that you 2 of all people would be fucking saying that, since I've been here longer than both of you.

The first 15 on spawn rule is DEAD.

Again you and your guild of all people should know that Stealin. Fuck what is wrong with you?

[Nirgon]

Take this thread out back, wring the tears out of it, and shoot it

So done with it!

[Tiddlywinks]

If you want to go with classic rules it would be whoever KSes the raid mob.. if you wanted to do that I would be more than down for that as well.

Classic or GTFO. :)

[Autotune]

Its funny that you 2 of all people would be fucking saying that, since I've been here longer than both of you.

The first 15 on spawn rule is DEAD.

Again you and your guild of all people should know that Stealin. Fuck what is wrong with you?

Have you?

If you read my post, you'd know that I wasn't implying the 15 on spawn is still a rule. I think it is pretty clear by how I worded my post.

[Arteker]

Gotta disagree with that. Casual players, i.e. most of the playerbase pre-Velious, you know, the folks who did not poopsock (except effing Ragefire) or train competitors or fill /ooc with retarded shittalk or otherwise live the EQ life of the dickweed douchebagger, those folks generally did not engage in douchebaggery at all. The rise of douchebaggery as a general malaise affecting large swaths of the playerbase was quite gradual thru the original game, accelerated a bit during Kunark, and turned things pretty well to shit in a steady crescendo of childish ugliness during Velious.

most people in eq got no idea what a raid mean till pop.

most people who where casual pre velious would be happy by gettin a single piece of planar gear.

unlike here , mobs like nagafen which needed be killed for open ragefire and cleric epic, where events sponsored mostly by big raider guilds using low lvls yes the loot would be randomened but these raiders wanted their clerics with rez sticks they didint give a shit about lowbies.

maybe u remember how much casual cried for the flag system in pop like poj trials .

it end with alot of poorly geared people (in many cases wihout even a piece of velious quest armour) dying in droves and making higher population of raiders ignore and get angry at them


EQ isnt WOW, isnt a fair game , never was, one can keep with nostalgia of the events like moving ur barbarian shaman from halas to fp but always where troubles and problems.

remember lowbies storming pofear and killing players trying to kill for armour?.

[Tiddlywinks]

Have you?

If you read my post, you'd know that I wasn't implying the 15 on spawn is still a rule. I think it is pretty clear by how I worded my post.

Ya it was so clear that I assumed you were talking about old socking rules when in fact you weren't.

Obviously that is your idea of clarity. Enlighten me what you were talking about then? Or perhaps you should shrug it off and tell me to go research it because anyone who has been around as long as I claim to must already know.

You're a joke. Shove the bravado act up your ass.

[Splorf22]

EQ isnt WOW, isnt a fair game , never was

I mean, I have no problem with it being classically unfair. But variance isn't classic.

[JayN]

Obama ruined classic thanks obama

[Arteker]

I mean, I have no problem with it being classically unfair. But variance isn't classic.
it Isnt like many things but it serve a purpose.
Again Loraen if u realy experienced what was having a hungry euro guild killing things when u where in high school or sleepin and when u loged excited to kill some dragons or things and u got told all is allready dead ....

well u would thank a variance.

thats the eqlive irony about euro guilds and patches. most eqpatches downtime resets happened in euro early time so giving european guilds a hugue adventage over usa asian localed guilds.


a classix example would be Solusek ro server, where the usa raid guilds where anhilated by euro and by the time of velious launch was a non official euro server.


realy do you think Soe bothered to launch euro servers because they wanted to be nice to euros? nahhhh it was due to massive tears of raiders.

[coki]

The raiding scene now is so much better than it was when TMO/IB were going at it that it's insane how much you guys don't see it.

nah its the exact same shit, it's just TMO is on top now, and once your there, well heh...you'll do anything to stay as long as its still fun to shit in others cheerios
( and it is! :D )


on a diff note...holy shit this is funny...http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1023602&postcount=38

[Yapas]

it Isnt like many things but it serve a purpose.
Again Loraen if u realy experienced what was having a hungry euro guild killing things when u where in high school or sleepin and when u loged excited to kill some dragons or things and u got told all is allready dead ....

well u would thank a variance.

thats the eqlive irony about euro guilds and patches. most eqpatches downtime resets happened in euro early time so giving european guilds a hugue adventage over usa asian localed guilds.


a classix example would be Solusek ro server, where the usa raid guilds where anhilated by euro and by the time of velious launch was a non official euro server.


realy do you think Soe bothered to launch euro servers because they wanted to be nice to euros? nahhhh it was due to massive tears of raiders.

I was in Euro guild (top 1 server Vazaelle) and I have to confirm that Patch downtime was often during morning euro time.

[Godefroi]

Hi Yapas

http://web-images.chacha.com/images/Gallery/4484/facts-about-medical-marijuana-382696943-aug-22-2012-1-600x368.jpg

;)

[Faisca]

You know the first thing I said in this thread was that it's amazing how people come to this server knowing what it's all about but complain about it anyway.

You're right it is going to be a repeat. That's because that is the INTENTION of this server, to repeat that era. I'm in the same boat as you man, I don't have the time to invest to hang with TMO right now. Maybe never will. But I knew that going in, and I don't see how anyone could think things would be different.

Imagine for a moment that the top tier content guilds decided they've had enough loots and started letting other people kill it. Say goodbye to the majority of the high level population of the server than I guess...

And how many players has this server said goodbye to, who have given up because they have burned out or because they were not interested to raid under these conditions in the first place? Many, many more than those.

Yes, they could go play in a different server, but those other servers either aren’t classic or are so heavily customized they’re just not appealing. To relive classic EQ experience this is the server to be.

And no, this server wasn’t built with the intention of bringing the negative aspects of classic EQ back again, and even if it was, it was only for the first 8 months of Kunark. After that it’s not a repeat. It’s a whole new game, and doesn’t have to be like this.

The devs have done an amazing job creating this server, but there is so much they can do. The rest is up to the community, and unfortunately the dominant forces in the community, because they obviously have vested interests in letting things stay as they are, don’t let this server be a pleasant experience for everyone.

The sad thing is this is not even pleasant to them, but because this is their job, it’s ok that it’s not pleasant. It’s a job and they need to protect it any way they can.

[Arteker]

And how many players has this server said goodbye to, who have given up because they have burned out or because they were not interested to raid under these conditions in the first place? Many, many more than those.

Yes, they could go play in a different server, but those other servers either aren’t classic or are so heavily customized they’re just not appealing. To relive classic EQ experience this is the server to be.

And no, this server wasn’t built with the intention of bringing the negative aspects of classic EQ back again, and even if it was, it was only for the first 8 months of Kunark. After that it’s not a repeat. It’s a whole new game, and doesn’t have to be like this.

The devs have done an amazing job creating this server, but there is so much they can do. The rest is up to the community, and unfortunately the dominant forces in the community, because they obviously have vested interests in letting things stay as they are, don’t let this server be a pleasant experience for everyone.

The sad thing is this is not even pleasant to them, but because this is their job, it’s ok that it’s not pleasant. It’s a job and they need to protect it any way they can.

this server was amde to replicate classic EQ. and its what is doing.no one forced those players to raid . so if they quit was his choice.

[Llodd]

it Isnt like many things but it serve a purpose.
Again Loraen if u realy experienced what was having a hungry euro guild killing things when u where in high school or sleepin and when u loged excited to kill some dragons or things and u got told all is allready dead ....

well u would thank a variance.

thats the eqlive irony about euro guilds and patches. most eqpatches downtime resets happened in euro early time so giving european guilds a hugue adventage over usa asian localed guilds.


a classix example would be Solusek ro server, where the usa raid guilds where anhilated by euro and by the time of velious launch was a non official euro server.


realy do you think Soe bothered to launch euro servers because they wanted to be nice to euros? nahhhh it was due to massive tears of raiders.

So yeah basically: Get rid of variance. Add simulated patch days early euro time and watch Europa become no.1. Seems classic/legit.

No tears right?

[webrunner5]

nah its the exact same shit, it's just TMO is on top now, and once your there, well heh...you'll do anything to stay as long as its still fun to shit in others cheerios ( and it is! :D )

What he says.

[Arteker]

So yeah basically: Get rid of variance. Add simulated patch days early euro time and watch Europa become no.1. Seems classic/legit.

No tears right?

no for me im euro.

[Yapas]

Hi Yapas

http://web-images.chacha.com/images/Gallery/4484/facts-about-medical-marijuana-382696943-aug-22-2012-1-600x368.jpg

;)

AHAH salut!

[ncapatina]

And how many players has this server said goodbye to, who have given up because they have burned out or because they were not interested to raid under these conditions in the first place? Many, many more than those.

Yes, they could go play in a different server, but those other servers either aren’t classic or are so heavily customized they’re just not appealing. To relive classic EQ experience this is the server to be.

And no, this server wasn’t built with the intention of bringing the negative aspects of classic EQ back again, and even if it was, it was only for the first 8 months of Kunark. After that it’s not a repeat. It’s a whole new game, and doesn’t have to be like this.

The devs have done an amazing job creating this server, but there is so much they can do. The rest is up to the community, and unfortunately the dominant forces in the community, because they obviously have vested interests in letting things stay as they are, don’t let this server be a pleasant experience for everyone.

The sad thing is this is not even pleasant to them, but because this is their job, it’s ok that it’s not pleasant. It’s a job and they need to protect it any way they can.

It is a much better "business" decision to cater to your more loyal customers (people who play more). A large majority of the casual player base doesn't give two shits TMO monopolizes content either.

I don't know what you expect the community to do. You have the have and have nots, just like any aspect of life. People who want to raid either are in TMO, want to be in TMO or don't want to join TMO for some reason or another. You have 3 choices at that point, apply to TMO, quit the game/stop trying to raid or compete with them. Despite what people say they don't have any advantage over anyone else except the inertia they've built up being the top guild on the server.

I guess my point is...too bad? I don't know how else to say it. Either beat them, join them, or quit - but complaining that TMO "won the game" fair and square and that makes you sad is just sort of lame.

[Picked]

It is a much better "business" decision to cater to your more loyal customers (people who play more). A large majority of the casual player base doesn't give two shits TMO monopolizes content either.

You're making the assumption they don't want to raid. They probably want to raid they just can't spend 40+ hours a week doing it.

[ncapatina]

You're making the assumption they don't want to raid. They probably want to raid they just can't spend 40+ hours a week doing it.

So you want the same thing but want to put in less effort?

Wanting something doesn't mean jack. Especially wanting something someone else already has but did put in 40+ hours a week.

Like I said, you have the ability to raid and get top end loot. But here, the bar has been set at the level of commitment TMO has to taking out top end raid targets.

If you want your progression capped not by your ability, organization and time commitment but by artificially placed hindrances by developers there is a perfect game for you: World of Warcraft.

[loramin]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it have to be that anyone who wants to experience VP must put in 40 hours? Shouldn't a hard-working, dedicated guild that puts in 20 hours a week be able to access VP? It should take them twice as long to get geared up for VP, and once they get there they'll only get to access it half as much as a guild that spends 40 hours ... but they should still be able to access it right?

That's not the same thing with less effort, it's half the thing with half the effort.

[ncapatina]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does it have to be that anyone who wants to experience VP must put in 40 hours? Shouldn't a hard-working, dedicated guild that puts in 20 hours a week be able to access VP? It should take them twice as long to get geared up for VP, and once they get there they'll only get to access it half as much as a guild that spends 40 hours ... but they should still be able to access it right?

That's not the same thing with less effort, it's half the thing with half the effort.

EQ doesn't work that way. That's how WoW is setup...things are instanced, you get badges/tokens/whatever and you accumulate enough you can trade them in for a piece of loot.

In EQ the time commitment is getting the contested content in the first place. Not to mention in the case of VP you're competing just to gain access to the zone as it requires drops from another contested raid target.

In order for Guild A to progress, Guild B cannot. There is no "do half the work and get half the reward" option. That's just the game folks, take it or leave it...

[loramin]

That's just the game folks, take it or leave it...

Oooo, I want to try making something true just by stating it too:

"Loramin has a million plat in his bank account."

;) Now, I don't need to run home and logon to know that my account doesn't have a million plat; similarly, just because you make a pronouncement like that doesn't make it any more true.

Everyone agrees P99's raid scene isn't, and can never be exactly like it was on live. So this whole discussion can't just be "it was X on live, so it should be X on P99". No one can just say "this is the way it has to be", because the way it should be is the way it was on live, and that's impossible. Instead, by definition, it has to be "this is the way we want it to be on P99".

So it's ok to say "I have an opinion, and that opinion is that everyone should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP." But other people have different opinions, and theirs are no better and no worse than your opinion.

At the end of the day it all comes down to what we want P99 to be. So given that, don't we all want a guild that spends twice as much effort to get twice as much reward ... not infinitely more reward?

P.S. Oh, and by "we" I in some sense mean "the p99 developers" ... but since it does seem that they can be influenced by the rest of us, in a way "we" really does mean "us".

[Picked]

So you want the same thing but want to put in less effort?

Wanting something doesn't mean jack. Especially wanting something someone else already has but did put in 40+ hours a week.

Like I said, you have the ability to raid and get top end loot. But here, the bar has been set at the level of commitment TMO has to taking out top end raid targets.

If you want your progression capped not by your ability, organization and time commitment but by artificially placed hindrances by developers there is a perfect game for you: World of Warcraft.

I'm not saying I am a casual player. I am on every night raiding. Not everyone has that luxury though. I'm just saying that you seem to think these people don't want to raid. When that is not the case.

[webrunner5]

There is a thing called DKP even on p1999. If you are in a sort of shitty guild you still won't get crap if you don't Raid much because you suck at DKP. Morale of the story just like in real life, if you don't do much you don't ever get much.

How is this so hard to understand on here?? Free handouts like welfare??

[Tasslehofp99]

The problem with p99 raiding is the rules of the server. Non-classic additions such as Variance, Sanctioned training, and the extended timeline we're on in combination with server repops rarely happening have created the situation on this server in terms of raiding.


Take out sanctioned training in VP, and have server repops more often..and you will see the loot spread out a lot more fairly. I mean TMO doesn't even need 75% of the loot they take in, its pure greed...and really has nothing to do with competition. They already will win velious regardless, with minimal effort, because no one has the amount of loot, or characters that they do.

The rest of us are just sitting here hoping the server's staff at some point implements more fair rules, or atleast enforces the rules they have here. By that I mean, IP exemption exploiting was always a bannable offense, it says so in the original message they send to you after your exemption goes through. Specifically, ever since Sirken made that ruling following TMO's previous IP exemption exploitations it was understood those caught would be banned. However, just this week Jeremy was caught abusing his IP exemption...and he wasn't banned.

How is this fair to the hundreds of other folks who were banned immediately upon being caught? What kind of message do you think this sends to the rest of the server?
Just saying, you can't expect people to feel as if they're playing on a level playing field when situations like this come about fairly regularly. I don't just mean in terms of individual players breaking the rules, I mean entire guilds as well. I'm not saying any one guild is more guilty than another either. But if you continually don't enforce the rules in a game..people will just take advantage of that, and they do on p99 everyday!