Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[Morgander]

If you're reading this, my guess is that the title of this thread had captured your attention.

Now I've played on P1999 for several years now, on multiple characters in multiple guilds. Each one has been a raiding guild. I've dabbled with guilds such as Dark Ascension and The Mystical Order, just to name a few, and every guild I've been apart of has been first and foremost, a raiding guild.

Through these experiences I've come to notice that the way you're forced to go about raiding on P1999, well, it just isn't very much fun.

It's not very much fun because there's such thing here as fair competition. Imagine if you would, a game of chess where black has the official starting pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 8 pawns.

Now imagine you're black, and you're playing the game against white, who's starting pieces are: 1 king, 7 queens, and 8 pawns.

Just doesn't sound like equality.

Sure, if you've two basketball teams on the court, one's bound to have superior players, better strategies, harder training regiments, etc., but they're both going to sport 5 players, and each side of the court's got the same measurements, and both teams still abide by all the same rules and undergo the same penalties.

What I'm getting at here is to reinforce the idea that this whole "competitive" aspect of P1999 raiding is an illusion. From my experience, there seems to be a clear outcry to continue to focus on this same-old competitive aspect of raiding from the more efficient raid guilds. And why not? This is of course directly in their best interests. Why share when you can take more than the other guy?

There seems to be a second group of raiders who feel so vehemently toward a given guild(s), that the mere idea of not having the opportunity to take something from these most hated groups, simply boils them up from the very soul outward.

And that's about it. You've got the group who wants nothing to change because they're already getting theirs, and you have the group who may or may not be getting much, but what they're getting keeps them in favor of this same competitive system because when they do get some, they relish in the idea of imaginary bragging rights against the group(s) they hate so avidly.

If you don't believe me you can just run a quick scan across the forums at the myriad of flames from guild to guild. You've got people from TMO blatantly bashing other guilds, calling them names, ridiculing them, and frankly, being very unsportsmanlike for a very competitive, sport-like endeavor. It's not TMO I'm talking about though, nor are they the focus nor major culprit of this topic. It's all the guilds. You've got guilds hating one another, telling lies about each others members, blowing up in public channels, across voice software, all over the forums... The list continues.

So what's the damned point? Well, the point is, why are we still accepting this archaic outlook on this server? How is it fun to log out next to a raid target, leave your guilds common voice-chat program open, awaiting the call, only to log on, play the game for a grand total of maybe 5-15 minutes, then move your character(s) to another target or targets, then rinse and repeat the process?

Whatever happened to actually logging in and playing the game? When did Everquest raiding mean you've got to have multiple max level characters just to stay logged in?

It's not just about who gets the most or who gets the least. It's a culmination of principles and what's most positive for the community.

I for one would implore the server administrators to take another look at the state of affairs on this server regarding raiding. We can do better than this. We can do better than forcing the staff to come up with a slew of seriously ridiculous, arbitrary rulesets to safeguard an illusionary form of competition between a select few guilds and a large minority of the playerbase.

Everquest wasn't like this. Not on any server I'd played on, nor the server in which I was a guide.

I for one hear more disdain, irritation, and sheer flagrant hatred come from the current system than I do positives on how things are running.

Do we want better? Do the players on this server deserve better? Can't we do better than this?

I think we can.

[Bazia]

everyone who didn't buy multiple accounts to park at multiple targets when it was allowed is pretty much fucked

sorry future p99er's you will never be able to compete

[Autotune]

Nice try, Obama.

[Gimp]

I still don't see what could possibly be fun about getting batphoned at 3am to log in and kill a mob for the 1,000th time, when you know every single possible drop is either going to someone's 7th alt or going to be sold in EC for plat. How useful can plat possibly be when you literally have an endless amount of it and control the market on 90% of high end items?

I guess some guild's sole purpose on killing mobs these days is to cockblock what they would consider "lower" guilds from progressing and closing the gear gap pre-Velious. I could be wrong, but from my very limited time on this server, this seems to be the only logical reasoning.

[gotrocks]

This is actually a nice, well thought out post, with one glaringly obvious flaw...

What do you propose be done about the raiding scene on p99?

[Autotune]

I still don't see what could possibly be fun about getting batphoned at 3am to log in and kill a mob for the 1,000th time, when you know every single possible drop is either going to someone's 7th alt or going to be sold in EC for plat. How useful can plat possibly be when you literally have an endless amount of it and control the market on 90% of high end items?

I guess some guild's sole purpose on killing mobs these days is to cockblock what they would consider "lower" guilds from progressing and closing the gear gap pre-Velious. I could be wrong, but from my very limited time on this server, this seems to be the only logical reasoning.

This person only thinks of loot.

[Tasslehofp99]

Good post, unfortunately you're right about the raiding scene on p99.

There are many flaws which remain a part of the raid scene for whatever reason or another. I for one have tried to bring it to the attention of players and staff many times and the only thing that came of it was harassment from players who are in competing guilds. If you try to point out inconsistencies or flaws in the server and ruffle the wrong feathers in the process you will be shunned. Hopefully a new p99 server comes out 5 years from now and all the assholes who've ruined p99 1.0 die in a fire before it opens.


I'm not ready to give up on p99 but if training/raid interference and other generally shitty antics are still allowed come velious release I will probably end up quitting (I assume many others will as well) everquest for good. Shit like that is not why I came back to re-experience everquest and is not a classic representation of eq at all when it goes unenforced.

The illusion of competition you speak of though, its real competition...just not a fair one as you stated. The top guild tries to legitimize the competition by making it seem as if anyone is even interested in stooping to the level that is required to "compete" with them. The reality though is only the top guild gives a fuck about raiding because the rest of us are sick of being trained/harassed/stalked by them and tired of seeing the rules broken and no repercussions. If the raiding rules on p99 were enforced fairly and there was a legit PNP (by that I mean one that applied to all players and not just a select few like the current PNP) the raiding scene might not be so bad.

What do you expect on a server that allows guilds to train other guilds on purpose and allows people to exploit ip exemptions, though?

[Tasslehofp99]

This is actually a nice, well thought out post, with one glaringly obvious flaw...

What do you propose be done about the raiding scene on p99?

Proposals have been made by many in the past and were mostly met with extreme sarcasm.

Did you know there was a "raiding guild summit" where the gms and representatives from each raiding guild tried to discuss solutions?

Did you know that the only guild against reforming the raid scene is the one currently monopolizing most of the content?

Did you know their only concern was, and I quote, "whens velious"? .... and that is how the last attempt at fixing the raid scene ended.

Its up to the devs&gms to create fair rules for the server and enforce them.


What we have here is more like a wild west, mad max type lf scenario.

You seem to be under the impression that no attempts have been made to fix things in the past, that is not true.

[Eccezan]

OP and Tasslehoff also think that limited targeted attacks on Syria will be good for the U.S.

[gotrocks]

Proposals have been made by many in the past and were mostly met with extreme sarcasm.

Did you know there was a "raiding guild summit" where the gms and representatives from each raiding guild tried to discuss solutions?

Did you know that the only guild against reforming the raid scene is the one currently monopolizing most of the content?

Did you know their only concern was, and I quote, "whens velious"? .... and that is how the last attempt at fixing the raid scene ended.

Its up to the devs&gms to create fair rules for the server and enforce them.


What we have here is more like a wild west, mad max type lf scenario.

You seem to be under the impression that no attempts have been made to fix things in the past, that is not true.

i am aware of all of this.

simulated patch days for server repops, variance, server rotation, etc.

These are all good suggestions, but I don't see an earth shatteringly clear solution here that will fix the p99 raid scene. Tasslehof, don't get me wrong - i'm not trying to say attempts haven't been made. And i'm not someone who has ever harassed you for attempting to find a solution, i'm just pointing out that this really is a well thought out and likely heartfelt post - but there's still no answer here, because there isn't an easy answer.

And i don't have one either.

[Raden]

velious will fix it

[Tasslehofp99]

i am aware of all of this.

simulated patch days for server repops, variance, server rotation, etc.

These are all good suggestions, but I don't see an earth shatteringly clear solution here that will fix the p99 raid scene. Tasslehof, don't get me wrong - i'm not trying to say attempts haven't been made. And i'm not someone who has ever harassed you for attempting to find a solution, i'm just pointing out that this really is a well thought out and likely heartfelt post - but there's still no answer here, because there isn't an easy answer.

And i don't have one either.

Ive been offering a simple solution for months: RULES.


Enforce them equally, consistently, and fairly at all times or don't enforce them at all. There us no inbetween, which is what I would consider what we have here -- we are somewhere in between having the rules/pnp enforced fairly and not having it enforced at all.

Its very simple really, and I wasn't implying that you were one of my stalkers. I was more referring to the poster above yours and his weird friends who literally stalk me out of game. I've had to put them all on ignore in game and on forums, and the harassment still continues all because I support a fair and healthy, competitive raiding scene. And because I support the enforcement of classic-style rules/pnp.

[Tasslehofp99]

velious will fix it

At this point releasing velious without a concrete set of rules in place, and removing sanctioned training from p99 raiding would just be detrimental.

The rules we have now aren't enforced fairly, what makes you think adding more mobs and players is going to fix anything?

[gotrocks]

Ive been offering a simple solution for months: RULES.


Enforce them equally, consistently, and fairly at all times.

This is so, so much easier said than done.

The real answer truly is velious. And it sounds like it will finally be coming soon for real.

[Autotune]

i am aware of all of this.

simulated patch days for server repops, variance, server rotation, etc.

These are all good suggestions, but I don't see an earth shatteringly clear solution here that will fix the p99 raid scene. Tasslehof, don't get me wrong - i'm not trying to say attempts haven't been made. And i'm not someone who has ever harassed you for attempting to find a solution, i'm just pointing out that this really is a well thought out and likely heartfelt post - but there's still no answer here, because there isn't an easy answer.

And i don't have one either.

P99 raid scene isn't broken, it's working exactly as Rogean wants it to. Not sure why you guys keep saying it's broken.

Simulated patch days and adjustments to variance post Velious would both be perfect, but they won't "fix" anything for the people here upset with how things are. They will just have to find new things to be upset about.

There are plenty people on the server who need loot from raid targets that aren't in VP, yet they only gripe about the state within VP. Changing the rules within VP won't "Fix" P99's raiding scene.

[gotrocks]

I never said it was broken or needed fixing :D

but I can understand where er, for lack of a better term, 'lesser guilds' than tmo are coming from when they find it hard to compete, and I think anything that helps them to do so is a good thing.

[Erratic]

At this point releasing velious without a concrete set of rules in place, and removing sanctioned training from p99 raiding would just be detrimental.

The rules we have now aren't enforced fairly, what makes you think adding more mobs and players is going to fix anything?

Most definitely - More content, lots more end game content. Enjoy all the traks you want.

And of course every other guild wants a change because they are losing currently. Making a change to the raiding scene would basically be devs going "OK tmo just can't be beat, so we're gonna have to do it for you by making things more "fair".

The blue print is there...its not a major secret to success. Other active players just don't want to do it, or fake active players aka casuals want end game loot with less effort and time investment.

Unite the clans, so many level 60s not in TMO it would be Persia vs the Spartans. Get organized follow the blueprint or continue typing on the forums whining and getting zero done.

[Weekapaug]

How about worrying more about "classic" and less about velious you monty haul posers?

None of this is classic.

[Tecmos Deception]

It's not very much fun because there's such thing here as fair competition. Imagine if you would, a game of chess where black has the official starting pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 8 pawns.

Now imagine you're black, and you're playing the game against white, who's starting pieces are: 1 king, 7 queens, and 8 pawns.

Just doesn't sound like equality.

Bad analogy.

The playing field was equal to begin with. Both sides had the same pieces to use. But then when TMO kept playing, and playing well, their opponent kept leaving the game to watch TV, play Xbox, go outside, etc. Now things are unequal because TMO has all of its pieces left while their opponent is down to a king and a few pawns.

The raid scene isn't unequal just like the game of chess isn't unequal. The issue lies with the players, not the games. The chess player who stays at the game and considers his options and has studied how to play is going to beat the player who keeps running off and isn't paying attention. The p99 player who plays a lot and tracks and bought accounts/leveled is going to "beat" the player who plays casually.


Moral of the story? If you don't like getting your ass kicked in a game of chess, then find another game to play. Or I guess you could keep petitioning World Chess Federation to change the rules of the game.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The raid scene isn't unequal just like the game of chess isn't unequal. The issue lies with the players, not the games. The chess player who stays at the game and considers his options and has studied how to play is going to beat the player who keeps running off and isn't paying attention. The p99 player who plays a lot and tracks and bought accounts/leveled is going to "beat" the player who plays casually.

The chess players who keep running off are because they're sick and tired of the "chess master" here getting secret favors from the Chess Federation which slightly stack the odds in their favor and are eventually exposed.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1023602&postcount=38

Why is Tiggles allowed to have personal relationships with the GM staff? Receives epic items early from Uthgaard. Dates Amelinda. Now involved in some sketchy Twitch streaming interest with Sirken. The rest of the server sees this, guys. The FTE shouts were a step in the right direction to level the playing field.

[Tecmos Deception]

I missed my chance to post "in before tinfoil hats." :(

[Rasah]

Changing the rules within VP won't "Fix" P99's raiding scene.
It would improve it to a slight degree. On a server repop, TMO can currently defend VP with 2-3 dedicated trainers to keep any other guild from killing any targets while the main TMO force clears the mobs the other guilds can actually kill. Then once those targets are dead, the TMO force can return to VP and kill the other mobs they have successfully defended.

Remove training and TMO would have to decide if they want FE/IB to get VP mobs or not. Then if it was a fight of the top guilds in VP, the rest of the guilds could race for the non-VP content.

[CharlesBarkley]

Proposals have been made by many in the past and were mostly met with extreme sarcasm.

Did you know there was a "raiding guild summit" where the gms and representatives from each raiding guild tried to discuss solutions?

Did you know that the only guild against reforming the raid scene is the one currently monopolizing most of the content?

Did you know their only concern was, and I quote, "whens velious"? .... and that is how the last attempt at fixing the raid scene ended.

Its up to the devs&gms to create fair rules for the server and enforce them.


What we have here is more like a wild west, mad max type lf scenario.

You seem to be under the impression that no attempts have been made to fix things in the past, that is not true.

That just sounds like a bunch of people commiserating together about being bullied

[Tasslehofp99]

It would improve it to a slight degree. On a server repop, TMO can currently defend VP with 2-3 dedicated trainers to keep any other guild from killing any targets while the main TMO force clears the mobs the other guilds can actually kill. Then once those targets are dead, the TMO force can return to VP and kill the other mobs they have successfully defended.

Remove training and TMO would have to decide if they want FE/IB to get VP mobs or not. Then if it was a fight of the top guilds in VP, the rest of the guilds could race for the non-VP content.

Yup!

[Pint]

It would improve it to a slight degree. On a server repop, TMO can currently defend VP with 2-3 dedicated trainers to keep any other guild from killing any targets while the main TMO force clears the mobs the other guilds can actually kill. Then once those targets are dead, the TMO force can return to VP and kill the other mobs they have successfully defended.

Remove training and TMO would have to decide if they want FE/IB to get VP mobs or not. Then if it was a fight of the top guilds in VP, the rest of the guilds could race for the non-VP content.

damn did someone just drop some knowledge in this thread

[Hitpoint]

It would improve it to a slight degree. On a server repop, TMO can currently defend VP with 2-3 dedicated trainers to keep any other guild from killing any targets while the main TMO force clears the mobs the other guilds can actually kill. Then once those targets are dead, the TMO force can return to VP and kill the other mobs they have successfully defended.

Remove training and TMO would have to decide if they want FE/IB to get VP mobs or not. Then if it was a fight of the top guilds in VP, the rest of the guilds could race for the non-VP content.

Yes. The servers raid scene might not be completely fixed, but disallowing training in VP would be a huge help. I cannot see a logical reason why it's even still allowed.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yes. The servers raid scene might not be completely fixed, but disallowing training in VP would be a huge help. I cannot see a logical reason why it's even still allowed.

It'd help if coupled with simulated patch days.

[Rasah]

To me, there is one thing that can be done that might eliminate a lot of the crying.

Back on live, Epics were released in September, and 6 months later they made them easier to complete by revamping Hate/Fear and making other high priority mobs triggerable.

We are going on month 20 of epics being out, and for many of us we are no closer to having our epics. That is definitely "not classic". Unfortunately, one of the most complex expansions is sandwiched in between these epic events. Velious will be awesome, and definitely worth the wait. But the existence of Velious doesn't have anything to do with Kunark era epics.

If the revamps were done while there is still fine tuning done on Velious, what would it hurt? It would alleviate a lot of the complaining that is done, especially by those classes that has to look at the other classes that can complete their epics.

[Mathiasaurus]

http://i.imgur.com/Lz6ejkE.gif

[skipdog]

If you think 'One guild dominating most of the content' isn't classic, then your server was an exception.

[Tecmos Deception]

To me, there is one thing that can be done that might eliminate a lot of the crying.

Back on live, Epics were released in September, and 6 months later they made them easier to complete by revamping Hate/Fear and making other high priority mobs triggerable.

We are going on month 20 of epics being out, and for many of us we are no closer to having our epics. That is definitely "not classic". Unfortunately, one of the most complex expansions is sandwiched in between these epic events. Velious will be awesome, and definitely worth the wait. But the existence of Velious doesn't have anything to do with Kunark era epics.

If the revamps were done while there is still fine tuning done on Velious, what would it hurt? It would alleviate a lot of the complaining that is done, especially by those classes that has to look at the other classes that can complete their epics.

This kind of stuff seems good in my book. Staff don't seem to have the same opinion, but I'm not too sure what their reasoning is. The server's mission statement talks about the "classic experience" and modifications to game mechanics to make the game feel classic, not about rigidly recreating classic mechanics in and of themselves. The practice of the staff indicates they don't care about nonclassic mechanics if they think it will result in a more classic experience, also.

/shrug

[Fountree]

After being on the server for awhile and raiding high end content since classic on this server, my conclusion is that TMO is just better organized and more efficient than other raid guilds. We've had our challengers in the past and they've succeeded at points. Yes, we have a gear advantage but we also have a numbers advantage because people want to join a more organized, successful guild. It's only natural. And the people joining know how we operate in advance, we have the most hungry, experienced players who are willing to train apps, put in long hours tracking and other things that make a successful raid guild. I disagree with the OP and I'm not sure why all the tears are here, we have the same pieces as everyone else, just we're better at playing the game as it currently stands. Velious will free up earlier raid content for those not capable of raiding at TMOs level in Kunark.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I disagree with the OP and I'm not sure why all the tears are here, we have the same pieces as everyone else, just we're better at playing the game as it currently stands. Velious will free up earlier raid content for those not capable of raiding at TMOs level in Kunark.

/agree

enough with the drama folks. LIVE was basically the same - you could NEVER force another guild into any sort of rotation or sharing, unless you could really threaten to steal a piece of their pie.

Back on LIVE I was in the guild that was raiding among 3rd rank guilds (1st rank guild had PoTime, 2nd rank had Elementals, and we had low tier PoP and VT), and 2nd tier guilds continuously took out low PoP/VT bosses to gear up/flag their newcomers, effectively ruining our raiding nights. The 2nd rank guilds HAD a rotation among them, but 3rd guilds were told to piss off.
If you want to sit at the round table as equal - you have to show POWER.
Once GoD was out, things lightened up for us a lot, as 1st/2nd rank moved up a tier, and we took what they left behind.

[Thulack]

If you think 'One guild dominating most of the content' isn't classic, then your server was an exception.

Brell was exception. Any others? Cause i know other servers had rotations too.

[Bhubbles]

1. Take away variance
2. Make the raid zone FFA pvp 30 minutes before and after a boss spawns.
3. If your guild loses in pvp you have to leave zone for an hour

Only way to fix it imo.

[Tecmos Deception]

Brell was exception. Any others? Cause i know other servers had rotations too.

Some servers had rotations. Some did not.

P99 is one of the ones that does not. It fits within the "classic experience" in that regard.

[Tecmos Deception]

1. Take away variance
2. Make the raid zone FFA pvp 30 minutes before and after a boss spawns.
3. If your guild loses in pvp you have to leave zone for an hour

Only way to fix it imo.

Lol.

[Bhubbles]

Dang tecmos didn't know we all didn't get our own opinion. Ill make sure to check with you before posting anything else in the future.

[Thulack]

Some servers had rotations. Some did not.

P99 is one of the ones that does not. It fits within the "classic experience" in that regard.

i was responding to skipdog who said that non drama servers were exception. was just trying to get list of servers that had rotations to prove they werent a exception. Yes i gave up on getting a rotation a long time ago cause i realize that the carnage that is the p99 raiding scene is what the dev's want or else they would have instituted it since they have no issues doing other non classic mechanics to screw with the raid scene.

[Tecmos Deception]

Dang tecmos didn't know we all didn't get our own opinion. Ill make sure to check with you before posting anything else in the future.

Don't mistake me laughing in derision at your idiotic opinion as me saying that you aren't entitled to an idiotic opinion.

Seriously. People can't agree to do a rotation. Why do you think that people could agree who wins some hour of FFA PvP? Why do you think that anyone would agree to leave the zone after that hour of FFA PvP? Etc.

[Bhubbles]

Touché

[Arteker]

It would improve it to a slight degree. On a server repop, TMO can currently defend VP with 2-3 dedicated trainers to keep any other guild from killing any targets while the main TMO force clears the mobs the other guilds can actually kill. Then once those targets are dead, the TMO force can return to VP and kill the other mobs they have successfully defended.

Remove training and TMO would have to decide if they want FE/IB to get VP mobs or not. Then if it was a fight of the top guilds in VP, the rest of the guilds could race for the non-VP content.

at this point we can split forces and do both same time. not like we didint did it before.

[bomaroast]

I'm not sure if it could be called human nature, but either way human beings are good at finding ways to be efficient. This is a known game. Everything about it is known. No classic server experience will ever be what live was in 99-01. It's gone. Poopsockers and flaming tards will destroy every server, forever. Sorry.

[Tecmos Deception]

Touché

Lol :)

I just think that your idea wouldn't work because of #3. If guilds can't even agree to a normal rotation, there's no way they will basically agree to a PvP-determined rotation.


Reduced/eliminated variance, simulated patch days, no training in VP. That'd be nice. Doesn't seem like it'd be a lot of work either, though I'm no programmer to know how the coding really works.

[Arteker]

The chess players who keep running off are because they're sick and tired of the "chess master" here getting secret favors from the Chess Federation which slightly stack the odds in their favor and are eventually exposed.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1023602&postcount=38

Why is Tiggles allowed to have personal relationships with the GM staff? Receives epic items early from Uthgaard. Dates Amelinda. Now involved in some sketchy Twitch streaming interest with Sirken. The rest of the server sees this, guys. The FTE shouts were a step in the right direction to level the playing field.

1: largest ban fest for cheats in server history: VD.
2: guild involved in sketchy biggest rmt: IB.
3: you are realy calling out sirken as a corrupt? do you have any evidence or just ur long years of blabla shit u been doing in forums.
4: as i remember tmo members as elethia xasten are the oens u should thank for FTE shout idea.

[Purdee]

if competition is truly desired, why not take away the ability to camp out at raid targets? it might be a pain in the ass/band-aid, but I don't see how logging in a fully buffed character after getting a text alert on a cell phone is competitive....

[Oompaa]

Yes, we have a gear advantage but we also have a numbers advantage...

...we have the same pieces as everyone else, just we're better at playing the game as it currently stands.

Contrasting statements.

[quido]

I find it interesting that Yendor sees the FTE Shouts as something to level the playing field. Since they've been implemented, FTE Shouts have made it more fair, but you've seen a considerable amount of those hairy FTE situations going to TMO instead of us accidentally killing the mob for a force of 3 or whatever.

[Tasslehofp99]

Server needs Simulated patch days and needs to have training removed from raiding all together before velious releases. Otherwise the raiding scene will be equally as fucked when Velious comes out.

At this point training is the only way TMO can keep VP fully on lock from week to week, I really think Rasah brought up a good point. You take out training, they are forced to prioritize targets in a different order which opens up lots of content for other guilds. On live, there wasn't such a huge variance that we have here. Which meant lots of times boss mobs spawned within the same time frame of eachother, forcing guilds to prioritize their targets.


Removal of Training and Simulated patch days would seriously be the best changes this server could hope for pre-velious, at this point.

[Autotune]

It would improve it to a slight degree. On a server repop, TMO can currently defend VP with 2-3 dedicated trainers to keep any other guild from killing any targets while the main TMO force clears the mobs the other guilds can actually kill. Then once those targets are dead, the TMO force can return to VP and kill the other mobs they have successfully defended.

Remove training and TMO would have to decide if they want FE/IB to get VP mobs or not. Then if it was a fight of the top guilds in VP, the rest of the guilds could race for the non-VP content.

If you believe for a second that TMO couldn't split forces and kill targets inside VP and outside of it at the same time you haven't been around very long.

TMO would still get the best targets every time and leave the ones that most guilds can't tackle with ample time up. It's been done before and it works extremely well on this server.

Yup!
This person should know this, and probably does, but either forgot or has bumped his head.
damn did someone just drop some knowledge in this thread
This person is someone that has no clue
Yes. The servers raid scene might not be completely fixed, but disallowing training in VP would be a huge help. I cannot see a logical reason why it's even still allowed. the logical reasons have already been told, by the staff. You cannot see it because you did not look.

[Autotune]

Contrasting statements.

having the same type of pieces and having the same number of pieces are two different things.

"We have the same pieces, we just have more of them and they're all better than yours."

[Tasslehofp99]

If you believe for a second that TMO couldn't split forces and kill targets inside VP and outside of it at the same time you haven't been around very long.

TMO would still get the best targets every time and leave the ones that most guilds can't tackle with ample time up. It's been done before and it works extremely well on this server.


This person should know this, and probably does, but either forgot or has bumped his head.

This person is someone that has no clue
the logical reasons have already been told, by the staff. You cannot see it because you did not look.

You don't play anymore, nowadays TMO wipes regularly to dragons with 35+ players. I don't see how they could split their usual 40-50 player raid force and come away with more kill than they do now if they "split their force." Specifically if you figure into the equation that they will obviously go for Phara Dar first, which will take time considering hoshkar and silverwing would be up and in the way. There are any number of scenarios which could play out really, but the fact is that removing training would force TMO to prioritize their targets and open up other targets to guilds who normally wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell at attempting those mobs.


You are just talking nonsense really, if training was removed and simulated patch days happened regularly the server's raid scene would benefit immensely. It just seems TMO and any of their supporters are against any proposed changes that may make the competition more fair or ultimately any changes that possibly may take away from their weekly pixel count.

[Autotune]

You don't play anymore, nowadays TMO wipes regularly to dragons with 35+ players. I don't see how they could split their usual 40-50 player raid force and come away with more kill than they do now if they "split their force." Specifically if you figure into the equation that they will obviously go for Phara Dar first, which will take time considering hoshkar and silverwing would be up and in the way.


You are just talking nonsense really, if training was removed and simulated patch days happened regularly the server's raid scene would benefit immensely. It just seems TMO and any of their supporters are against any proposed changes that may make the competition more fair or ultimately any changes that possibly may take away from their weekly pixel count.

Only silverwing would have to die before TMO killed Phara Dar and I can tell you right now, no other guild is going to be able to do that.

TMO still has plenty of people and they always shine when the chips aren't in their favor, it is known.

Edit: Actually, I bet TMO could kill PD first with both Hosh and Silverwing up, now that I think about how they've done things in the past.

[Tasslehofp99]

Only silverwing would have to die before TMO killed Phara Dar and I can tell you right now, no other guild is going to be able to do that.

TMO still has plenty of people and they always shine when the chips aren't in their favor, it is known.

There are also ways around Silverwing/Hoshkar that other VP-keyed guilds could use to move around VP without killing anything. You aren't looking at whats important, the raiding scene's health. Its suffering right now, and some simple changes could really bring it back and increase competition across the board.

I understand the dev's are focused on Velious at the moment but honestly releasing velious before addressing the raiding scene's flaws at this point would just be putting a bandaid over a huge wound that requires stitches. I don't really see what the issue is with removing training in VP, other than it would make it harder for TMO to lock down the zone. That's the only problem here, and the fact that I'm sure intentional training would still happen under the guise of "Oops, bad pathing" and GM's would be petitioned/annoyed more. That's another entire issue in itself though.

[Autotune]

There are also ways around Silverwing/Hoshkar that other VP-keyed guilds could use to move around VP without killing anything. You aren't looking at whats important, the raiding scene's health. Its suffering right now, and some simple changes could really bring it back and increase competition across the board.

I understand the dev's are focused on Velious at the moment but honestly releasing velious before addressing the raiding scene's flaws at this point would just be putting a bandaid over a huge wound that requires stitches. I don't really see what the issue is with removing training in VP, other than it would make it harder for TMO to lock down the zone. That's the only problem here, and the fact that I'm sure intentional training would still happen under the guise of "Oops, bad pathing" and GM's would be petitioned/annoyed more. That's another entire issue in itself though.

The raiding scene now is so much better than it was when TMO/IB were going at it that it's insane how much you guys don't see it. The only aspect is training in VP that you guys don't get (it's a GM decision to not want to deal with petitions in the zone). However, I seriously doubt any zone in Velious will have training allowed and you guys still sit around with your thumbs up your asses as if it's impossible to snag targets regularly now.

You have one guild to compete against which you've already claimed "wipes on the regular" and yet not a single other guild is gearing up for velious raiding? and why???? Oh, training is allowed in a zone that only 30 other people outside of TMO can even enter...

PS: Moving around VP and Killing raid targets are two different beasts.

[Tasslehofp99]

The raiding scene now is so much better than it was when TMO/IB were going at it that it's insane how much you guys don't see it. The only aspect is training in VP that you guys don't get (it's a GM decision to not want to deal with petitions in the zone). However, I seriously doubt any zone in Velious will have training allowed and you guys still sit around with your thumbs up your asses as if it's impossible to snag targets regularly now.

You have one guild to compete against which you've already claimed "wipes on the regular" and yet not a single other guild is gearing up for velious raiding? and why???? Oh, training is allowed in a zone that only 30 other people outside of TMO can even enter...

You would be surprised how many keyed VP players are on this server and not in TMO, who are unwilling to waste hours of their precious time to fuck around training people. What does it matter what the raiding scene was like 2 years ago? We're talking about right here and now, and into the future moving forward.

By the way, there are already players pushing for training to be allowed in Ntov and Sleeper's tomb. So you may want to take that into consideration when wondering why so many people want to fix these problems now. We don't like training in VP because it isn't classic and has no place in Everquest raiding, and we don't want training to be allowed in velious. When I say we I mean those who support classic EQ raiding on p99 and want it to be as fair and competitive as possible.

[Tasslehofp99]

PS: Moving around VP and Killing raid targets are two different beasts.

I'm fairly certain if training wasn't allowed you could just move your raid force right into whatever dragon's lair you want to kill and engage them on the spawn point. The only reason classic VP crawl tactics aren't used on p99 is because of stupid sanctioned training. On live, we literally crawled through VP as a raid and moved wherever we wanted to go, or used a mage with faction to start CoTH link. Here, you can't do things like that due to training. VP was a whole different beast on live than it is on here. VP on p99 is nothing like VP on live, and a few simple rule changes could go a long way in terms of making it "more classic."

[Autotune]

You would be surprised how many keyed VP players are on this server and not in TMO, who are unwilling to waste hours of their precious time to fuck around training people. What does it matter what the raiding scene was like 2 years ago? We're talking about right here and now, and into the future moving forward.

By the way, there are already players pushing for training to be allowed in Ntov and Sleeper's tomb. So you may want to take that into consideration when wondering why so many people want to fix these problems now. We don't like training in VP because it isn't classic and has no place in Everquest raiding, and we don't want training to be allowed in velious. When I say we I mean those who support classic EQ raiding on p99 and want it to be as fair and competitive as possible.

You seriously can't be this damn stupid. It's not a player decision to why training is allowed in VP, it was never even a consideration on what players thought as to why it's allowed. Why the fuck would I take into consideration what a bunch of random nobodies want in zones and decisions that they have zero pull with.

I wouldn't be surprised either. Unlike you, I was there when people and guilds were getting keyed and I was there when nearly 50% of those characters were bought by TMO and I was there when a large amount of them left and who won't come back.

Removing Training from VP will just create another prevp raiding scene inside of VP. The GMs and staff see it and that's why training is allowed.

[Tasslehofp99]

You seriously can't be this damn stupid. It's not a player decision to why training is allowed in VP, it was never even a consideration on what players thought as to why it's allowed. Why the fuck would I take into consideration what a bunch of random nobodies want in zones and decisions that they have zero pull with.

I wouldn't be surprised either. Unlike you, I was there when people and guilds were getting keyed and I was there when nearly 50% of those characters were bought by TMO and I was there when a large amount of them left and who won't come back.

Removing Training from VP will just create another prevp raiding scene inside of VP. The GMs and staff see it and that's why training is allowed.

Because the same people who support training being allowed in VP are those who want it to be allowed in NtoV/ST. Nilbog already stated that he would consider changing the rules regarding VP, while Sirken has stated he is against such rule changes. If a majority of the server would prefer classic rules in VP, and the only people who oppose such changes are those who are favored by the current rules, why would the rules not be changed?

Furthermore, do you think that its fair that VP's rules favor one guild over any others? I mean, at this point its fair to say that no guild can compete with TMO in VP. This isn't due to the fact that TMO is better geared, has more players with VP keys, and has had more practice/experience in VP..its simply due to training. You take out training, and you instantly increase competition INSIDE of VP and outside as well. There really isn't an argument against this other than the GM's not wanting to deal with petitions, but there already are tons of petitions dealing with raiding outside of VP.


It seems though that the main problem on p99 raiding is the rules, and the enforcement of them fairly and equally.

[Alarti0001]

Because the same people who support training being allowed in VP are those who want it to be allowed in NtoV/ST. Nilbog already stated that he would consider changing the rules regarding VP, while Sirken has stated he is against such rule changes. If a majority of the server would prefer classic rules in VP, and the only people who oppose such changes are those who are favored by the current rules, why would the rules not be changed?

Furthermore, do you think that its fair that VP's rules favor one guild over any others? I mean, at this point its fair to say that no guild can compete with TMO in VP. This isn't due to the fact that TMO is better geared, has more players with VP keys, and has had more practice/experience in VP..its simply due to training. You take out training, and you instantly increase competition INSIDE of VP and outside as well. There really isn't an argument against this other than the GM's not wanting to deal with petitions, but there already are tons of petitions dealing with raiding outside of VP.


It seems though that the main problem on p99 raiding is the rules, and the enforcement of them fairly and equally.

In Summary: Tass is mad that there are mobs on P99 he can't poopsock.

[Tasslehofp99]

In Summary: Tass is mad that there are mobs on P99 he can't poopsock.

Not at all really, where did you get that from?

You're delusional or something if you think this has anything to do with poopsocking...

[Bazia]

everyone who didn't buy multiple accounts to park at multiple targets when it was allowed is pretty much fucked

sorry future p99er's you will never be able to compete

[Autotune]

Because the same people who support training being allowed in VP are those who want it to be allowed in NtoV/ST. Nilbog already stated that he would consider changing the rules regarding VP, while Sirken has stated he is against such rule changes. If a majority of the server would prefer classic rules in VP, and the only people who oppose such changes are those who are favored by the current rules, why would the rules not be changed?

Furthermore, do you think that its fair that VP's rules favor one guild over any others? I mean, at this point its fair to say that no guild can compete with TMO in VP. This isn't due to the fact that TMO is better geared, has more players with VP keys, and has had more practice/experience in VP..its simply due to training. You take out training, and you instantly increase competition INSIDE of VP and outside as well. There really isn't an argument against this other than the GM's not wanting to deal with petitions, but there already are tons of petitions dealing with raiding outside of VP.


It seems though that the main problem on p99 raiding is the rules, and the enforcement of them fairly and equally.

The top part, you answered your own question.

second part, fair has nothing to do with it. Not once has any GM said the rules were made to be "fair". However, the fair you are talking about is relative. What fair is to you, may not be fair to another. Fair in the simplest form, however, is having the rules in VP apply to everyone equally, regardless, and in that regard VP is fair.

VP rules apply to everyone. The only reason they favor TMO is because a guild that was equal to them left. TMO was ahead of you then and they are ahead of you now. You're definition/view of fair is only to move the bar in your favor.

Do not mistake this as me wanting things one way or the other. Like you said, I don't play (raid) anymore. However, you going around implying that rules are in place simply for the advantage of a single guild is annoying, especially since it has been stated several times why the zone is the way it is.

There are tons of petitions outside where things are less hectic and you want to multiply that for GMs, yet you can't understand why they don't want to take on that work load.

[Baron]

I do enjoy playing on this server even though I'll never have multiple raiding 60's. As far as people go... I've met some very cool people and a couple people that are complete DB's (but the DB's are few and far between)...

My hat goes off to the people that keep this server running as it must be a thankless job.

With all that being said, I've come to realize that the likelihood of me completing my epic is slim to none due to the fact that I will never have 500K in plat and I would prefer to stay in the guild I'm in (a good, solid, large guild) with the friends I've made.

That just well kind of sucks but what can I say....

My... 3... cents.

[Autotune]

I do enjoy playing on this server even though I'll never have multiple raiding 60's. As far as people go... I've met some very cool people and a couple people that are complete DB's (but the DB's are few and far between)...

My hat goes off to the people that keep this server running as it must be a thankless job.

With all that being said, I've come to realize that the likelihood of me completing my epic is slim to none due to the fact that I will never have 500K in plat and I would prefer to stay in the guild I'm in (a good, solid, large guild) with the friends I've made.

That just well kind of sucks but what can I say....

My... 3... cents.

I'd have to say, this is the complaint I believe most had back in classic until the revamps that made getting epics easier.

[Tasslehofp99]

Its so simple though, fair or not...training doesn't belong on a PVE server. Its basically a lame form kf pvp, which has bo place on a pve server let alone in end game raiding.

If the gms want a classicly emulated server as close to what live was, removing training would be a huge step I'm the right direction.


Honestly, do you think if training was removed TMO would still kill 70 to 90% of mobs outside of VP?

If yes, then I can't talk to you because you simply are trolling.

If no, then we can continue to have a conversation regarding the fairness of such rules.


Basically what I mean by fair is, there are 5+ guilds on the server capable of killing any mob save for gore/hoshkar. These guilds would benefit directly from training being removed, not just the guilds in direct "competition" with TMO. Sure, tmo has been around longer, has more members, has an effective method/infrastructure to maintain their monopoly.

But the important issue here is that training was established 2+ years ago when an entire different populus was on the server. Save for 20 to 30 or so core members, I highly doubt any significant portion of tMo remembers when VP opened.


Its just time to do away with sanctioned training, it should have never been allowed as it was never allowed on live. Training does not belong in eq and leads to the stagnation of the raiding scene which we see now. I'm not denying there are other factors in play here but releasing velious is just a temporary solution to a major flaw on the server.

[quido]

I liked Tasslehof better when wasn't maxed on loot minus VP.

[Tasslehofp99]

I do enjoy playing on this server even though I'll never have multiple raiding 60's. As far as people go... I've met some very cool people and a couple people that are complete DB's (but the DB's are few and far between)...

My hat goes off to the people that keep this server running as it must be a thankless job.

With all that being said, I've come to realize that the likelihood of me completing my epic is slim to none due to the fact that I will never have 500K in plat and I would prefer to stay in the guild I'm in (a good, solid, large guild) with the friends I've made.

That just well kind of sucks but what can I say....

My... 3... cents.

Yeah that is very unfortunate man.
Removing sanctioned training in vp coupled with regular simulated repop days would go along way towards fixing that. Instead of the top guild leaving 2 to 3people in vp to train incase anyone went there on a repop while they killed all the non-vp mobs they would have to kill those vp dragons first. This would open the door for other guilds to go after non-vp epic dropping raid bosses.


I really wish we had a "p99 blue discussion" on twitch like they had for red99, I mean we have like 30 times more players. Would think keeping those players interested instead of letting the top guild drive them all away with griefing would be atleast one of their concerns.

3 things that would immensely help the raiding scene and I assumr are easily doable :
1. Remove training in VP
2. Simulated repops
3. More strict(or any at all) enforcement of pnp/server rules.


Get er done, save p99 before we revert back to where we were 2 years ago.

[Autotune]

Its so simple though, fair or not...training doesn't belong on a PVE server. Its basically a lame form kf pvp, which has bo place on a pve server let alone in end game raiding.

If the gms want a classicly emulated server as close to what live was, removing training would be a huge step I'm the right direction.


Honestly, do you think if training was removed TMO would still kill 70 to 90% of mobs outside of VP?

If yes, then I can't talk to you because you simply are trolling.

If no, then we can continue to have a conversation regarding the fairness of such rules.


Basically what I mean by fair is, there are 5+ guilds on the server capable of killing any mob save for gore/hoshkar. These guilds would benefit directly from training being removed, not just the guilds in direct "competition" with TMO. Sure, tmo has been around longer, has more members, has an effective method/infrastructure to maintain their monopoly.

But the important issue here is that training was established 2+ years ago when an entire different populus was on the server. Save for 20 to 30 or so core members, I highly doubt any significant portion of tMo remembers when VP opened.


Its just time to do away with sanctioned training, it should have never been allowed as it was never allowed on live. Training does not belong in eq and leads to the stagnation of the raiding scene which we see now. I'm not denying there are other factors in play here but releasing velious is just a temporary solution to a major flaw on the server.

Sirken has already stated it is not time.

Give one good reason why he should devote more of his free time to you.

[Tasslehofp99]

I liked Tasslehof better when wasn't maxed on loot minus VP.

I'm not maxxed on loot minus VP, albeit fairly close.
I've quit tasslehof though, atleast until velious.

Either way, why you still stalking me bro shits weird.

[Autotune]

save p99 before we revert back to where we were 2 years ago.

It's already been saved. Petitions are no where near as bad as they were back then.

[quido]

Tasslehof it's not like they haven't heard you. They're just not listening. You should probably be louder - spam more threads, bump them multiple times a day - say the same things over and over. They'll eventually listen right?

[Tasslehofp99]

Sirken has already stated it is not time.

Give one good reason why he should devote more of his free time to you.

That's unfortunate, I assume that he favors training due to his pvp background.


Too bad the devs/gms who favor classic eq aren't head GM, server might actually sustain its population for longer than 3 month periods. People come and go so fast because they reach end game, see what its like on p99 and mostly they don't bother getting involved or they do...get burnt out, nd never log on again lol.

Simple: competition = fun, fun = more players interested, more players = more competition and more fun.

That sounds so much better than what we have now.

What we have now is more like a cycle of 1 guild shitting on (by any means necessary) any guild attempting to compete, the gms not enforcing server rules, and those guilds all eventually giving up and saying why bother this place is fucked.


Fix server rules so they encourage competition please, the raiding scene here is borked.
Only people opposing change is the top guild because under the current rule set they can quite literally do whatever it takes to kill other guilds with impunity.

[Frogie305]

Could you imagine the amount of petitions that would come out of vp? Or the amount of work required Monitoring that zone? you would need a GM present for every single encounter. Every single damn encounter you might as well /petition Hey can you get on and make sure this guild does not accidently train me ? or the amount of fraps that they would need to go over cause the pathing in VP is kinda crazy. Let alone some one running out of vp and hey i just so happen to get feared next to your raid heres some mobs. Please stop talking about VP like you know anything about it, cause you clearly don't. http://t.qkme.me/3uy4wh.jpg

And FYI the last repop did not repop VP.. so hush little baby don't you cry.

[Tasslehofp99]

Tasslehof it's not like they haven't heard you. They're just not listening. You should probably be louder - spam more threads, bump them multiple times a day - say the same things over and over. They'll eventually listen right?

I'm just trying to keep the discussion going, while all you trolls keep trying to end it.

People feel strongly about this! Why should we not discuss it? Perhaps its time the gms/devs offer an official stance or atleast join in the discussion. This threads been going for a while now, I figured that a post which got so much attention is indicative that something should perhaps be looked at, at the very least.

[JayN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48H34ukFe8g

[Tasslehofp99]

If you seriously can't engage a dragon without training yourself or another raid you shouls just be held accountable for your actions. Same as if I was to train some guild attempting inny, I would ve held accountable...most likely anyway. Why is vp different? Why shoild we abandon trying to improve the pathing by offering fresh eyes? Furthermore training has no place in PVE everquest, go play on red with the rest of the griefers.


I mean we actually had fun in VP on live racing for dragons without training, almost as much fun as NTOV in velious was.

[Autotune]

That's unfortunate, I assume that he favors training due to his pvp background.


Too bad the devs/gms who favor classic eq aren't head GM, server might actually sustain its population for longer than 3 month periods. People come and go so fast because they reach end game, see what its like on p99 and mostly they don't bother getting involved or they do...get burnt out, nd never log on again lol.

Simple: competition = fun, fun = more players interested, more players = more competition and more fun.

That sounds so much better than what we have now.

What we have now is more like a cycle of 1 guild shitting on (by any means necessary) any guild attempting to compete, the gms not enforcing server rules, and those guilds all eventually giving up and saying why bother this place is fucked.


Fix server rules so they encourage competition please, the raiding scene here is borked.
Only people opposing change is the top guild because under the current rule set they can quite literally do whatever it takes to kill other guilds with impunity.

Trolling, this entire post is massive trolling. You know why Sirken stated what he did, there is no reason to assume it's for some other reason.

Keep these posts up and you'll land yourself a ban for disrespecting staff.

[JayN]

I'm just trying to keep the discussion going, while all you trolls keep trying to end it.

People feel strongly about this! Why should we not discuss it? Perhaps its time the gms/devs offer an official stance or atleast join in the discussion. This threads been going for a while now, I figured that a post which got so much attention is indicative that something should perhaps be looked at, at the very least.

I bet people do feel strongly about this issue, espcially the ones your trying to screw over and punish for devoting there time and efforts to their guilds.]

You want an easy shortcut and get your phat lewts, guess what you get to be one of the guilds that is always one expansion behind grats, now thats classic!
g
o raid the lower guk and naggy/vox, reap what you sow shit head. give shit you get shit, surprised?

I know you could give a shit as long as you get your loot.... your so used to just buying your way to the top its amazing how devious you are in your efforts to destroy blue.

[Tasslehofp99]

Lol wut? Pls go back to rnf troll.


Just trying to help bring about positive change to p99 to help it more accurately emulate live eq.

[Arteker]

You don't play anymore, nowadays TMO wipes regularly to dragons with 35+ players. I don't see how they could split their usual 40-50 player raid force and come away with more kill than they do now if they "split their force." Specifically if you figure into the equation that they will obviously go for Phara Dar first, which will take time considering hoshkar and silverwing would be up and in the way. There are any number of scenarios which could play out really, but the fact is that removing training would force TMO to prioritize their targets and open up other targets to guilds who normally wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell at attempting those mobs.


You are just talking nonsense really, if training was removed and simulated patch days happened regularly the server's raid scene would benefit immensely. It just seems TMO and any of their supporters are against any proposed changes that may make the competition more fair or ultimately any changes that possibly may take away from their weekly pixel count.

last tmo wipe in a outdoor dragon was sev with 18 players and just a shaman for heals , most of the toons twinked .

could be worse than last vs popsock where u guys begin to claim TMO was getting aoe lifetaped by venril sathir and u guys where doing fraps of it?.

Because now its easier to blame TMO taking AOES from venril sathir Deadly lifetap than ur own guild failures.


TMO has been the most trained guild in vp , u guys did 3 attemps in dragons 1 unconstested , druushk .

wipe to nexona in the super fun and infamous Spam jboots spam jboots, and a solid attemp of pd in a over the world spot wich was denied as dragon killing field to tmo and ib long long long time ago ebfore u left VD.

[Tasslehofp99]

I saw you guys wipe to sev like last week with 37 tmo in zone!

Also I never said you were getting "aoe lifetapped" tortue was just attacking VS from the front to cause ripostes, these ripostes can cause VS to lifetap. I just figured stuff like that was raid interference is all, guess I am wrong though. We did 110k~ damage or so to that VS, according to someones parser, unless I'm remembering inaccurately.

Edit: I was NEVER in VD, you are thinking of hassel/kasssel/nester

[Arteker]

Lol wut? Pls go back to rnf troll.


Just trying to help bring about positive change to p99 to help it more accurately emulate live eq.

bullshit u just crying because u tried all dirty shit in the book to win and failed , now u come forums to cry like a beaten dog.

i had way more respect by the silent guilds such divinity bda a team than you , u just know to cry and blame ur troubles into others because you cannot win.


u can justify u do it for the server wich is bullshit anyone who can research in forums can see how u bragg about killing tmo and training the shit of us in vp.


when ur guild stoped working and begin to fall u begin to cry and forum quests.

some dignity man .

man it up and put a figth in game not in forums . thats has been the main troueble of this server .

so many forum warriors like you and yendor and many others who could write very well but did nothing in game .

[Arteker]

I saw you guys wipe to sev like last week with 37 tmo in zone!

Also I never said you were getting "aoe lifetapped" tortue was just attacking VS from the front to cause ripostes, these ripostes can cause VS to lifetap. I just figured stuff like that was raid interference is all, guess I am wrong though. We did 110k~ damage or so to that VS, according to someones parser, unless I'm remembering inaccurately.

Edit: I was NEVER in VD, you are thinking of hassel/kasssel/nester
thats kinda and simple bullshit . tortue someone i hate btw was in same group than me, never got hited , only tmo who died was a lvl 53 enchanter gnome bikwin wich isnt in vs faction and got no ivu.and he did when ur last cleric Da and run vs away of the room trying to kite and win time for more fe show up.

[Frogie305]

/Petition Hey sirken can you log on and watch every single VP engage please thanks!!!

^^ There was a time when FE killed Druushk, And even got Silverwing to 8% with trains coming at you. And that super hacks Phara Dar attempt to 35%< We actually have fraps of this. So Tasse i ask you why not come back and play? Maybe your guild would work better if it would stop gearing out second mains < LOL! Planatiry come app TMO when ever you want man, I guarantee when you get full member no alt will get loot over you EVER!

[fastboy21]

everyone who didn't buy multiple accounts to park at multiple targets when it was allowed is pretty much fucked

sorry future p99er's you will never be able to compete

this only matters if you play EQ to "compete" and are trying to "win" something...

there is a reason why classic EQ didn't have a great raid game...its because winning at the raid game was never what the point of playing EQ is all about.

[Arteker]

I saw you guys wipe to sev like last week with 37 tmo in zone!

Also I never said you were getting "aoe lifetapped" tortue was just attacking VS from the front to cause ripostes, these ripostes can cause VS to lifetap. I just figured stuff like that was raid interference is all, guess I am wrong though. We did 110k~ damage or so to that VS, according to someones parser, unless I'm remembering inaccurately.

Edit: I was NEVER in VD, you are thinking of hassel/kasssel/nester

we wiped last week sev oh bollocks .


Players on EverQuest:

[60 Virtuoso] Retus (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Bikwin <The Mystical Order>
[57 Revenant] Suffer (Human) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Elethia <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Necrious <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Psychotropic <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Iksben <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Leuko <The Mystical Order>
[54 Vicar] Doktyr (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Herrenvolk <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Heartbeats <The Mystical Order> LFG
[ANONYMOUS] Ashburn <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Sckrilla LFG
[ANONYMOUS] Inkybert <The Mystical Order>
[60 Sorcerer] Gabtik (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Paradime <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Lorea <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Jasminda <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Babysinblack <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Balammer <The Mystical Order> LFG
[ANONYMOUS] Bialar <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Nukehard <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Luchino <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Zerorez <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Mytha <The Mystical Order> [ANONYMOUS] Sororf <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Vonhammer
[ANONYMOUS] Citizen <The Mystical Order>
[60 Assassin] Quickfingers (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Jara <The Mystical Order>
AFK [ANONYMOUS] Soapx <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Floppie <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Falling <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Olidaen <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Jeremy <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Redgar <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Raden <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Snackxaphone <The Mystical Order>
[60 Warlord] Solkunar (Ogre) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Muiriol <The Mystical Order>

There are 40 players in The Emerald Jungle.


/GU Severilous in 160s, 47k @297dps --- Muiriol 10k @70dps (20.08%) --- Quickfingers 7k @49dps (14.47%) --- Solkunar 5k @35dps (10.5%) --- Luchino 5k @35dps (10.27%) --- Olidaen 4k @28dps (9.12%) --- Sckrilla 4k @51dps (8.56%) --- Babysinblack 4k @26dps (7.42%) --- Snackxaphone 3k @19dps (5.58%) --- Soapx 2k @13dps (3.4%) --- Balammer 1k @11dps (2.88%)

Luchino tells the guild, 'Cloak of Flames, Runed Bolster Belt, Green Dragon Scales, Treasure Hunter`s Satchel, Spell: Enlightenment, Spell: Tigir`s Insects, Spell: Markar`s Discord, '

and u said he killed us? jesus i think ur health is going down bro.

[ravenshade32]

One guild never dominated servers on most occasions. I played on VZ from 1999-2005 and the leading guilds most were on even par. Defiant, Ancient/Ebon Dawn, Ancient Orden, Aerist and from memory Dark Defiant Warriors might have also been up there.

So one guild dominating is extremely unfair and definitely not classic.

[Tasslehofp99]

we wiped last week sev oh bollocks .


Players on EverQuest:

[60 Virtuoso] Retus (Wood Elf) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Bikwin <The Mystical Order>
[57 Revenant] Suffer (Human) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Elethia <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Necrious <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Psychotropic <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Iksben <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Leuko <The Mystical Order>
[54 Vicar] Doktyr (Dwarf) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Herrenvolk <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Heartbeats <The Mystical Order> LFG
[ANONYMOUS] Ashburn <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Sckrilla LFG
[ANONYMOUS] Inkybert <The Mystical Order>
[60 Sorcerer] Gabtik (Gnome) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Paradime <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Lorea <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Jasminda <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Babysinblack <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Balammer <The Mystical Order> LFG
[ANONYMOUS] Bialar <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Nukehard <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Luchino <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Zerorez <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Mytha <The Mystical Order> [ANONYMOUS] Sororf <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Vonhammer
[ANONYMOUS] Citizen <The Mystical Order>
[60 Assassin] Quickfingers (Halfling) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Jara <The Mystical Order>
AFK [ANONYMOUS] Soapx <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Floppie <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Falling <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Olidaen <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Jeremy <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Redgar <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Raden <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Snackxaphone <The Mystical Order>
[60 Warlord] Solkunar (Ogre) <The Mystical Order>
[ANONYMOUS] Muiriol <The Mystical Order>

There are 40 players in The Emerald Jungle.


/GU Severilous in 160s, 47k @297dps --- Muiriol 10k @70dps (20.08%) --- Quickfingers 7k @49dps (14.47%) --- Solkunar 5k @35dps (10.5%) --- Luchino 5k @35dps (10.27%) --- Olidaen 4k @28dps (9.12%) --- Sckrilla 4k @51dps (8.56%) --- Babysinblack 4k @26dps (7.42%) --- Snackxaphone 3k @19dps (5.58%) --- Soapx 2k @13dps (3.4%) --- Balammer 1k @11dps (2.88%)

Luchino tells the guild, 'Cloak of Flames, Runed Bolster Belt, Green Dragon Scales, Treasure Hunter`s Satchel, Spell: Enlightenment, Spell: Tigir`s Insects, Spell: Markar`s Discord, '

and u said he killed us? jesus i think ur health is going down bro.

This doesn't prove that you didn't wipe to sev with 36 or so players, because that did happen...lol it may have been 2 weeks ago but either way TMO still regularly wipes to mobs which should be trivial by now.

None of what you're posting is relevant to the discussion at hand though.

[Tasslehofp99]

/Petition Hey sirken can you log on and watch every single VP engage please thanks!!!

^^ There was a time when FE killed Druushk, And even got Silverwing to 8% with trains coming at you. And that super hacks Phara Dar attempt to 35%< We actually have fraps of this. So Tasse i ask you why not come back and play? Maybe your guild would work better if it would stop gearing out second mains < LOL! Planatiry come app TMO when ever you want man, I guarantee when you get full member no alt will get loot over you EVER!

Planarity wouldn't have gotten that bp anyway because he wasn't at the raid on which it dropped. Also, its pretty funny the only guild selling mqs their members still need as well as the only guild farming raid bosses they don't need to profit has members that would call out another guild on loot distribution. Now I know you're just trolling. Also you're basically lying, I was in VP when a 47 enchanter was given a robe that a main in TMO needed, and he deffinetly made full member by then. I only know this because both enchaters are good friends of mine from prior guilds.

[Arteker]

This doesn't prove that you didn't wipe to sev with 36 or so players, because that did happen...lol it may have been 2 weeks ago but either way TMO still regularly wipes to mobs which should be trivial by now.

None of what you're posting is relevant to the discussion at hand though.

i just give u proofs of last sev kill from last week, now it become non relevant.



and this ladies and gentleman is why Tasslehoff is just a forum quest troll .

[Tasslehofp99]

i just give u proofs of last sev kill from last week, now it become non relevant.



and this ladies and gentleman is why Tasslehoff is just a forum quest troll .

Proof that you eventually killed him, not proof that you didn't wipe first.

Either way in my last post I said I could have been wrong, may have been 2 sev spawns ago.
But you guys deffinetly wiped to sev with 36 ppl in the last 2 weeks, that much I know for sure.

[Sirken]

Now involved in some sketchy Twitch streaming interest with Sirken. The rest of the server sees this, guys.
wait what? how is me trying to promote the server to new people, in any way sketchy? i have said numerous times that i will accept any streamers invitation to join them as long as they stream mostly p99, and the discussion (or questions) are restricted to P99. instead of being jealous, tell your pals to invite me as well! less tinfoil accusations, more hard evidence. if you think that myself, or any other staff member is up to no good, then you NEED to send your proof to nilbog. otherwise, id really appreciate it if you would stop slandering my good name in an effort to make yourself feel better over some fictitious slight that you feel you have suffered at my hands.

Trolling, this entire post is massive trolling. You know why Sirken stated what he did, there is no reason to assume it's for some other reason.
Keep these posts up and you'll land yourself a ban for disrespecting staff.
i dont see him as disrespecting me or staff tbh (for a good example of it, see Yendor's post above). he and i may disagree about certain things, but there's nothing wrong with that, sometimes people disagree. but i've stated my thoughts and my reasons, and until my position changes, theres really nothing left for me to say on the topic. but that doesn't mean i dont read the threads, simply that i have nothing new to contribute to the thread because ive already addressed it.

edit - One guild never dominated servers on most occasions. I played on VZ from 1999-2005 and the leading guilds most were on even par. Defiant, Ancient/Ebon Dawn, Ancient Orden, Aerist and from memory Dark Defiant Warriors might have also been up there. So one guild dominating is extremely unfair and definitely not classic.
12prophets dominated VZ for all of Classic and Kunark. no other guild even saw Sebilis loots until 12p showed up for the first ever BotB (warriors). and even then the ENTIRE 52+ crowd joined forces against them. you had Defiant, Fated, Xanit Kven, DarkDefiantWarriors, and da bashin iggles, all working together near sebilis. to say ANY guild on VZ was on par with with the 12prophets before that point is laughable. larger problem is the 2+ years Kunark has been out imo. but yes, it actually is absolutely 100% classic for the server that you played on (Vallon Zek)

[Morgander]

Bad analogy.

The playing field was equal to begin with. Both sides had the same pieces to use. But then when TMO kept playing, and playing well, their opponent kept leaving the game to watch TV, play Xbox, go outside, etc. Now things are unequal because TMO has all of its pieces left while their opponent is down to a king and a few pawns.

The raid scene isn't unequal just like the game of chess isn't unequal. The issue lies with the players, not the games. The chess player who stays at the game and considers his options and has studied how to play is going to beat the player who keeps running off and isn't paying attention. The p99 player who plays a lot and tracks and bought accounts/leveled is going to "beat" the player who plays casually.


Moral of the story? If you don't like getting your ass kicked in a game of chess, then find another game to play. Or I guess you could keep petitioning World Chess Federation to change the rules of the game.

This is a rather stereotypical and standard self-defense analogy against this argument, and you mistake me if you assume the guild(s) that I'm apart of, or where my intentions might lie in the idea behind change within the raid scene.

The concepts of which you speak are both in fact, relatively unethical, and universally inefficient in real world practice (keeping in mind the bridging between real world social action and online world social action, of course).

This idea you've presented are, in a nut shell, the same kinds of actions that laws are created to safeguard those without the monopoly of power; IE: Those with the greatest resources.

Laws protect the general public from monopolization and fraud. Anyone here hear about the gas wars back when gas was around 16 cents a gallon (if my memory serves mind you)? During that time, huge conglomerates of the gas industry were dropping their prices down to a level unmanageable to smaller companies. If gas cost 18 cents on the gallon to get to the pump, the big dogs could sell it for 16, just to kill their competition.

Now if we all accepted your 'theory' on "the most badass must win, leave all else behind!" We'd run into serious problems in many industries beyond gas pricing. These kinds of actions aren't legal in virtually every major nation on earth to date (again as per my fallible recollection)--and there's good reason for it.

One of the (if not the biggest even) reasons that gas prices in the U.S. are about between $3.24 and $3.94 happen to be because of the old gas wars.

You see, once the majority of competitors (the weak, as you so blatantly put it) could no longer compete (or just found it was no longer worth the effort), then gas prices slowly began to increase. Granted, gas can't just jump from .16 cents to a dollar, it's got to be incremental so as to not cause social outcry.

And it did increase. It very quickly jumped several cents in the first few months, stayed steady, then slowly trickled up and up again and again.

Now mind you, this is just the icing on the proverbial shit-cake. This little tidbit on the history of gas prices isn't the only negative thing that's ever come from the idea of "survival of the fittest".

To end this reply, I implore you--and anyone entertaining a similar strain of thought--that not everyone outside your immediate guild is less hardcore, less badass, or necessarily less of a guild than you and yours. In fact, you might be surprised to find that some of the very people in the very unit you so vehemently defend, are in fact against the very idea of which you speak.

For me, it's not about how much or how fast my loot rolls in. It's about the idea of logging in and playing the game. It's about not being forced to log out at the feet of every viable raid target to sit in their window so we don't have to be called at 3AM for a 5 minute insta-kill from a huge slew of players with gear caliber enough to vastly trivialize the encounter to begin with.

And as to answer another poster's inquiry of, "what do I propose?"

Well my personal opinions on what we should do aren't what this topic is about. This is a community issue that should be solved by the community. We should desire to work together to make this experience the most worth-while and fun for everyone, not just the, "most elite".

You'll never know how "elite" I am, and that's neither the point nor does it matter. I may have 4 or more level 60's sporting epics and then some, or I might not even have a single max level character. Either way, my goal--if I had a goal here on the interim--is fairness, fun, and a better raid experience for every single person.

And not just those who think they're entitled. Be they the elite or the non-elite. It doesn't actually matter.

[Tasslehofp99]

I deffinetly mean no disrespect to the staff, I'm just sincerely concerned for the state of the server. Ive been on p99 long enough (3 years this november) to know how things work here and I know lots of the server history. There's no reason to not want to discuss changing certain aspects of the raiding scene on p99.


In fact, I've brought it up several times when I was newer to the server and didn't quite understand the way things worked here. Nothing was really changed since then other than fte shouts, and back then the server pop got so bad that gms regularly made announcements in game urging people to donate. People don't want to waste their time playing on a server they feel is unfair.

like I said, velious coming out will help but only temporarily until some real rules for raiding are established and enforced fairly. Currently p99 raiding is like a wild wild west of fuckery.

[Tasslehofp99]

This is a rather stereotypical and standard self-defense analogy against this argument, and you mistake me if you assume the guild(s) that I'm apart of, or where my intentions might lie in the idea behind change within the raid scene.

The concepts of which you speak are both in fact, relatively unethical, and universally inefficient in real world practice (keeping in mind the bridging between real world social action and online world social action, of course).

This idea you've presented are, in a nut shell, the same kinds of actions that laws are created to safeguard those without the monopoly of power; IE: Those with the greatest resources.

Laws protect the general public from monopolization and fraud. Anyone here hear about the gas wars back when gas was around 16 cents a gallon (if my memory serves mind you)? During that time, huge conglomerates of the gas industry were dropping their prices down to a level unmanageable to smaller companies. If gas cost 18 cents on the gallon to get to the pump, the big dogs could sell it for 16, just to kill their competition.

Now if we all accepted your 'theory' on "the most badass must win, leave all else behind!" We'd run into serious problems in many industries beyond gas pricing. These kinds of actions aren't legal in virtually every major nation on earth to date (again as per my fallible recollection)--and there's good reason for it.

One of the (if not the biggest even) reasons that gas prices in the U.S. are about between $3.24 and $3.94 happen to be because of the old gas wars.

You see, once the majority of competitors (the weak, as you so blatantly put it) could no longer compete (or just found it was no longer worth the effort), then gas prices slowly began to increase. Granted, gas can't just jump from .16 cents to a dollar, it's got to be incremental so as to not cause social outcry.

And it did increase. It very quickly jumped several cents in the first few months, stayed steady, then slowly trickled up and up again and again.

Now mind you, this is just the icing on the proverbial shit-cake. This little tidbit on the history of gas prices isn't the only negative thing that's ever come from the idea of "survival of the fittest".

To end this reply, I implore you--and anyone entertaining a similar strain of thought--that not everyone outside your immediate guild is less hardcore, less badass, or necessarily less of a guild than you and yours. In fact, you might be surprised to find that some of the very people in the very unit you so vehemently defend, are in fact against the very idea of which you speak.

For me, it's not about how much or how fast my loot rolls in. It's about the idea of logging in and playing the game. It's about not being forced to log out at the feet of every viable raid target to sit in their window so we don't have to be called at 3AM for a 5 minute insta-kill from a huge slew of players with gear caliber enough to vastly trivialize the encounter to begin with.

And as to answer another poster's inquiry of, "what do I propose?"

Well my personal opinions on what we should do aren't what this topic is about. This is a community issue that should be solved by the community. We should desire to work together to make this experience the most worth-while and fun for everyone, not just the, "most elite".

You'll never know how "elite" I am, and that's neither the point nor does it matter. I may have 4 or more level 60's sporting epics and then some, or I might not even have a single max level character. Either way, my goal--if I had a goal here on the interim--is fairness, fun, and a better raid experience for every single person.

And not just those who think they're entitled. Be they the elite or the non-elite. It doesn't actually matter.


Damn sick post, good points.
P99 desperately needs more players like yoi...better yet p99 needs a GM like you.

[Morgander]

If you think 'One guild dominating most of the content' isn't classic, then your server was an exception.

I considered before posting this as to how viable giving this information would be (and of course I have no proof to back up the claim, so take it with as large a grain of salt as you deem permissible), but...

I lead the top raid guild (of it's time) on my prime server of Morell Thule, and we had created and honored, a raid rotation.

We got more content because the rotation had set rules as to how you got on it for given mobs and how often you could access them, but we never had to camp characters and wait for repops, thus not having fun.

And guilds not quite as "domineering?" as ours still got access to raid content.

Take that knowledge what you will. If you believe me, I just hope it goes to clarify the at least partial contradiction in the aforementioned argument.

[Tasslehofp99]

I considered before posting this as to how viable giving this information would be (and of course I have no proof to back up the claim, so take it with as large a grain of salt as you deem permissible), but...

I lead the top raid guild (of it's time) on my prime server of Morell Thule, and we had created and honored, a raid rotation.

We got more content because the rotation had set rules as to how you got on it for given mobs and how often you could access them, but we never had to camp characters and wait for repops, thus not having fun.

And guilds not quite as "domineering?" as ours still got access to raid content.

Take that knowledge what you will. If you believe me, I just hope it goes to clarify the at least partial contradiction in the aforementioned argument.

Prexus was similar in that it had 3 or 4 high end guilds through kunark. Then a group of dirt bags formed a guild called Stasis and they fucked the rotation up in velious. Following that though the servers top guilds continued to respect and even work together at times. Server first tormax kill was an open invite to anyone who wanted to come, gms even broadcast it. P99 is nothing like live in terms of raiding.


The raiding on live was more competitive yet friendly. Following the breakdown of the rotation on prexus the 3 to 4 high end guilds had an agreement that tje first guild in position to pull and kill a mob was given the first shot. Even on mobs like CT/inny...first guild in zone clearing had first shot at the mob. Here if inny/ct pops TMO zones in and disrupts any raids going on because they feel this is appropriate. This is why guilds hate eachother and there is so much drama here, the rules support bad blood between guilds and do nothing to encourage competition.

[JayN]

The server is at record pops, id say it has a lot to do with tiggles and sirkens streaming of events and interaction in Chats.

Hell Tiggles even did an interview with "The best guild on the Server" or so they claim; no malus or any shit was given. I might add it was very nice done with an excellent video production.

you just dont want to put in the effort and want something handed to you and youll use any excuse youy can to have your way, now it its just spaming "this is not classic" over and over again.

Concerned for the server, well the gooout and promote it and try and help it instead of trying to ruin it with your egotistical bullshit sir!

[Morgander]

Please allow me to make a few follow-up comments about the quoted details below, in red.

If you believe for a second that TMO couldn't split forces and kill targets inside VP and outside of it at the same time you haven't been around very long.

Morgander: Can't TMO just share?

TMO would still get the best targets every time and leave the ones that most guilds can't tackle with ample time up. It's been done before and it works extremely well on this server.

Morgander: Can't TMO just share?

This person should know this, and probably does, but either forgot or has bumped his head.

This person is someone that has no clue
the logical reasons have already been told, by the staff. You cannot see it because you did not look.

Morgander: Can't all guilds just share?

There's an interesting philosophical idea I've proposed to people in the past. Consider the following:

You've a room with only 10 people. 1 person, has enough food to last a million people a lifetime. 5 others have enough combined food to never worry about going hungry, 3 occasionally go hungry, but they won't starve to death, while the last, poorest 2 will die or starvation should nobody help them.

Now imagine if you will, that the wealthiest individual refuses to share his wealth (food) with any of the others.

Now leave anything else aside, and virtually every single person I've ever come across when asked how they feel about these people, universally agree that the only basis they have for scrutinizing each individuals character, is that the richest individual is not only selfish, but completely immoral.

Now translate food into different gains; consider cash, net worth, or just enough gum to give everyone in the class a piece and still have plenty left for yourself. The same situation transpires to similar ends: It's wrong not to share.

Now I'm not trying to bash or single out any guild here. TMO crops up because TMO is indisputably the, "richest person in the room".

So this begs the dilemma which extends to TMO and beyond: Sharing.

If you came to me in game and asked me if you could be added to the waiting list for an item I've already 14 of when you've none, you'd probably find me giving up my spot so you could have a wack at it. Why?

Well, because it's just nice. Because it makes people smile. Because it's the right god-damned thing to do.

Never in my life have I ever heard of a better reason to do anything. Ever.

[JayN]

Sharing - someone had the great idea to split their guild into two; so they could get twice the share... at that point sharing become a scam more then a fair rotation

BREAK THE DEAL FACE THE WHEEL

[Tasslehofp99]

You realize the pop was at this level around kunark release as well...abd dropped down to less than 500 players average on peak hours? It happened before kunark came out too, probably will happen again. Ultimately p99has a high turnover rate, people come and go, some come back, some don't.


This is due to the fact that once you level up and do everything you can on your own/in groups...there is nothing left. Its either join TMO, or join another guild who hopes to raid and get kill rarely, or buy your loot from TMO.

Now...I understand there are many factors behind the population fluctuating, but why wouldn't we do what we can to minimize it? Why wouldn't we try to keep people around as long as possible!

I mean look at rapture for example..they came, they conqueres a little bit, but ultimately they realize end game raiding on p99 is a cruel lesson in futility. Why? Because the rules are not fairly enforced and we have nonclassic mechanics such as variance and sanctioned training in vp.

You can't honestly say that you have been around long enough to see TMO single handedly push hundreds of players away from p99 and still think nothing is wrong with p99 raiding.

[JayN]

You can't honestly say that you have been around long enough to see TMO single handedly push hundreds of players away from p99 and still think nothing is wrong with p99 raiding.


anything to destroy TMO anything, keep it up Hoff youll win

[W8Gamer]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post. First, let me just say that I'm a returning player after a 2 year hiatus. I just returned to p99 this year. So, I'm not exactly current on all the raid/guild drama that has occurred on the server. However, from reading several of the raiding discussions and hearing some of the history of TMO, I've gathered this much (by all means correct me if I'm wrong):

Training in VP has been allowed since the zone opened. Raiding rules have always been fairly the same aside from a few changes like variance, FTE, and what not. For the most part though there has not been some substantial, game changing rule. Now, TMO has not always been the top guild. From what I understand, TMO at one point in time used to wipe breaking into fear. I've read a few posts of people mocking TMO for this. So, obviously they have not always been as strong as they are now.

What does that tell me? That tells me that TMO had to work to get to where they are within the same rules and guildelines that are currently implemented. TMO had to deal with the same trains any other guild has to deal with when they raid VP.

With that said, let me address some of these ridiculous analogies and comparisons. First off, comparing the raiding scene of EverQuest (a game) to an economic monopoly or the gas wars is just plain retarded (for lack of a better word). Almost as retarded as comparing it to a room of people where not sharing food could result in the death of another person. I'm pretty sure no one on the server is going to die if they don't get their raid loots. These are terrible examples for one reason. EverQuest is a GAME. It's a GAME. A GAME! How can you compare a GAME to the economy of the real world? In the GAME of EverQuest I can choose whether or not I am affected by simply not playing or not participating in certain aspects of the game and it having no impact on my livelihood. I had started to type up an in-depth explanation, but in all honesty, if you can't see how stupid this sounds, then nothing I say is going to change your mind or feelings about this.

A proper comparison of EverQuest (again, a game) would be to yet another type of game. The comparison to chess was actually quite good, because like EverQuest, chess is a game. Ever heard of the saying comparing apples to oranges? That's what you're doing with the EQ raiding scene and the gas wars (lol). How about we stick to apples? So, what would be a good comparison for the raiding scene of EQ? In my opinion, Kind of the Hill. Ever play? See, in King of the Hill, a certain spot is deemed "the hill" and the "King" is whoever stands on it. The objective of the other players is to knock the king off the hill and control it themselves. Whoever controls the hill the longest is winning or wins the game. That's what TMO is right now. They are the King of the Hill. They weren't at one point though. See, they played the game and they knocked the previous king off the hill. And because they are so good at the game, everyone wants to cry out for a rule change. However, what rule changes were made when TMO wasn't the king? Was the previous king told to step down from the hill and give TMO a chance at king?

Like most games, there are winners and losers. The beauty of EverQuest is you get to decide how you win at the game. For me, winning is being the best on the server. That's my win and I'm pretty sure TMO shares in the same sentiment. They want to win and winning to them is being the strongest guild and in order to be the strongest guild, they need to kill the strongest mobs. So, why exactly should they share? Why should they favor a rotation? They played the game within the rules and are currently winning. It's like if we were playing basketball and TMO just scored a 3 pointer, you expect them to give you the ball and allow you to try and shoot a 3 pointer except you want a change in the rules. You want to say TMO isn't allowed to steal the ball or attempt to block your shot even though you were absolutely allowed to do it to them, but either didn't or just weren't able too.

Anyway, this seems classic to me. On E`Ci Reconstructed was the boss guild and they controlled the end game and weren't content with sharing with any competing guilds. And why should they? We are playing a game aren't we? I'm not about to let the opposing team shoot 3 pointers all day long uncontested and I'm damn sure not about to let that one kid stand on my hill for too long either. Play the game.

[Quientus]

Actually on E'Ci Recon sorta "shared" the Top spot with Vane ... Recon was US based and Vane was Asian (player for player, Vane blew Recon away, but Recon had alot more members) ...

I see both sides, and as I'm not an activate player here I really can't form an opinion either Way, except to say I don't understand the part about training in Veeshans Peak ... ;-)

[W8Gamer]

Now that you mention Vane, I do remember that guild, but I didn't know much about them. Being an Asian based game makes since as to why I didn't. I just remember hearing people complain about Recon moving on raid targets with little regard for the smaller guilds.

Either way ya look at it, typically the high end was reserved for 1 to 2 guilds at the most.

[Autotune]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post. First, let me just say that I'm a returning player after a 2 year hiatus. I just returned to p99 this year. So, I'm not exactly current on all the raid/guild drama that has occurred on the server. However, from reading several of the raiding discussions and hearing some of the history of TMO, I've gathered this much (by all means correct me if I'm wrong):

Training in VP has been allowed since the zone opened. Raiding rules have always been fairly the same aside from a few changes like variance, FTE, and what not. For the most part though there has not been some substantial, game changing rule. Now, TMO has not always been the top guild. From what I understand, TMO at one point in time used to wipe breaking into fear. I've read a few posts of people mocking TMO for this. So, obviously they have not always been as strong as they are now.

What does that tell me? That tells me that TMO had to work to get to where they are within the same rules and guildelines that are currently implemented. TMO had to deal with the same trains any other guild has to deal with when they raid VP.

With that said, let me address some of these ridiculous analogies and comparisons. First off, comparing the raiding scene of EverQuest (a game) to an economic monopoly or the gas wars is just plain retarded (for lack of a better word). Almost as retarded as comparing it to a room of people where not sharing food could result in the death of another person. I'm pretty sure no one on the server is going to die if they don't get their raid loots. These are terrible examples for one reason. EverQuest is a GAME. It's a GAME. A GAME! How can you compare a GAME to the economy of the real world? In the GAME of EverQuest I can choose whether or not I am affected by simply not playing or not participating in certain aspects of the game and it having no impact on my livelihood. I had started to type up an in-depth explanation, but in all honesty, if you can't see how stupid this sounds, then nothing I say is going to change your mind or feelings about this.

A proper comparison of EverQuest (again, a game) would be to yet another type of game. The comparison to chess was actually quite good, because like EverQuest, chess is a game. Ever heard of the saying comparing apples to oranges? That's what you're doing with the EQ raiding scene and the gas wars (lol). How about we stick to apples? So, what would be a good comparison for the raiding scene of EQ? In my opinion, Kind of the Hill. Ever play? See, in King of the Hill, a certain spot is deemed "the hill" and the "King" is whoever stands on it. The objective of the other players is to knock the king off the hill and control it themselves. Whoever controls the hill the longest is winning or wins the game. That's what TMO is right now. They are the King of the Hill. They weren't at one point though. See, they played the game and they knocked the previous king off the hill. And because they are so good at the game, everyone wants to cry out for a rule change. However, what rule changes were made when TMO wasn't the king? Was the previous king told to step down from the hill and give TMO a chance at king?

Like most games, there are winners and losers. The beauty of EverQuest is you get to decide how you win at the game. For me, winning is being the best on the server. That's my win and I'm pretty sure TMO shares in the same sentiment. They want to win and winning to them is being the strongest guild and in order to be the strongest guild, they need to kill the strongest mobs. So, why exactly should they share? Why should they favor a rotation? They played the game within the rules and are currently winning. It's like if we were playing basketball and TMO just scored a 3 pointer, you expect them to give you the ball and allow you to try and shoot a 3 pointer except you want a change in the rules. You want to say TMO isn't allowed to steal the ball or attempt to block your shot even though you were absolutely allowed to do it to them, but either didn't or just weren't able too.

Anyway, this seems classic to me. On E`Ci Reconstructed was the boss guild and they controlled the end game and weren't content with sharing with any competing guilds. And why should they? We are playing a game aren't we? I'm not about to let the opposing team shoot 3 pointers all day long uncontested and I'm damn sure not about to let that one kid stand on my hill for too long either. Play the game.

This is pretty much spot on.

However, a correction and point of interest, VP was released and it was under a mandatory "rotation" of sorts. IB and TMO rolled off for dragons and Rogean/Nilbog watched the encounters to see how they functioned.

Most people like to think it was staff giving TMO dragons/loot, but actually they just didn't want to deal with IB and TMO's crap for hours on end just to see how their dragons were going to hold up.

[W8Gamer]

This is pretty much spot on.

However, a correction and point of interest, VP was released and it was under a mandatory "rotation" of sorts. IB and TMO rolled off for dragons and Rogean/Nilbog watched the encounters to see how they functioned.

Most people like to think it was staff giving TMO dragons/loot, but actually they just didn't want to deal with IB and TMO's crap for hours on end just to see how their dragons were going to hold up.

Ok, thanks for the correction. Like I said, I don't know all of the history/drama.

None the less, I just don't understand where the unfairness in the rules are. People are free to train TMO all day long in VP without repercussion. I get that most people don't like training, but those are the rules of the game. If TMO can operate within them, anyone else can. FE got the upper hand once before. So, do it again.

[Masq]

Solution is simple and I'm not even a raider.

a) all raid bosses respawn at the same time
b) all players logged out in the vicinity of raid bosses spawn points are teleported X distance away.

While this won't fix everything, surely it will solve several problems. Profit?

[Tasslehofp99]

The unfair part is that rules aren't enforced fairly. Only FE has been suspended for breaking rules while TMO hasn't.

Most recently there was an incident where TMO trained us at trak, we fraps/petition. Then apparently (wasn't there for this) later that day FE trained TMO at VS pit.

So...in the past FE was asked to sit out a trak spawn for training TMO. Why was TMO not asked to sit out the following trak after they trained us?

The reason given was that our train at VS and their train at trak equaled out to "a wash" even though in the past we had been suspended from trak for training. What should have happened here was FE sits out a vs for training there, tmo sits out a trak for training there.


This is the inconsistency in the rules that I'm referring to. If a guild trains they should follow the previous precedent which was: the offending guild sits out the next spawn of whatever mob they trained at. FE was suspended for training trak, why wasn't TMO? Venril sathir happened later and shouls have been irrelevant to the trak encounter.

Not to mention I think half the server has been trained by tortue and that guy isn't suspended.

[Tasslehofp99]

Solution is simple and I'm not even a raider.

a) all raid bosses respawn at the same time
b) all players logged out in the vicinity of raid bosses spawn points are teleported X distance away.

While this won't fix everything, surely it will solve several problems. Profit?

Add: enforce training rules, remove sanctioned training.
then, profit.

[Arteker]

The unfair part is that rules aren't enforced fairly. Only FE has been suspended for breaking rules while TMO hasn't.

Most recently there was an incident where TMO trained us at trak, we fraps/petition. Then apparently (wasn't there for this) later that day FE trained TMO at VS pit.

So...in the past FE was asked to sit out a trak spawn for training TMO. Why was TMO not asked to sit out the following trak after they trained us?

The reason given was that our train at VS and their train at trak equaled out to "a wash" even though in the past we had been suspended from trak for training. What should have happened here was FE sits out a vs for training there, tmo sits out a trak for training there.


This is the inconsistency in the rules that I'm referring to. If a guild trains they should follow the previous precedent which was: the offending guild sits out the next spawn of whatever mob they trained at. FE was suspended for training trak, why wasn't TMO? Venril sathir happened later and shouls have been irrelevant to the trak encounter.

Not to mention I think half the server has been trained by tortue and that guy isn't suspended.

u mean same vs imba trained d the fuck out of FE with sirken watching?

[Autotune]

The unfair part is that rules aren't enforced fairly. Only FE has been suspended for breaking rules while TMO hasn't.

Most recently there was an incident where TMO trained us at trak, we fraps/petition. Then apparently (wasn't there for this) later that day FE trained TMO at VS pit.

So...in the past FE was asked to sit out a trak spawn for training TMO. Why was TMO not asked to sit out the following trak after they trained us?

The reason given was that our train at VS and their train at trak equaled out to "a wash" even though in the past we had been suspended from trak for training. What should have happened here was FE sits out a vs for training there, tmo sits out a trak for training there.


This is the inconsistency in the rules that I'm referring to. If a guild trains they should follow the previous precedent which was: the offending guild sits out the next spawn of whatever mob they trained at. FE was suspended for training trak, why wasn't TMO? Venril sathir happened later and shouls have been irrelevant to the trak encounter.

Not to mention I think half the server has been trained by tortue and that guy isn't suspended.

Where is this fraps at? I'd like to see it, mainly because I have seen people complain of other guilds training them and often it's their own fault.

[Arteker]

Where is this fraps at? I'd like to see it, mainly because I have seen people complain of other guilds training them and often it's their own fault.

stealin , you know elethia is very good at frap,s what he is moaning , happeed when poor shinko, using imba his ogre war rushed to vs pit without ivu he draged alot of mobs with him , he tried to back up but low hps in their tank means mobs went for him.

tank get killed vs kill clerics, imba get killed trying to drop his train into tmo.

problem it was undeads and everyone was with ivu.

sirken was even there watching.

[fastboy21]

One guild never dominated servers on most occasions. I played on VZ from 1999-2005 and the leading guilds most were on even par. Defiant, Ancient/Ebon Dawn, Ancient Orden, Aerist and from memory Dark Defiant Warriors might have also been up there.

So one guild dominating is extremely unfair and definitely not classic.

just because that was your classic experience doesn't mean that this one is not.

[apio]

itt: tmo douches trying to tell everyone they're better than the rest

i use the term ´trying´ because all you are better at than anyone else is being unemployed basement dwellers with no life. I totally understand why you don't want anyone to ´take away´the only thing you ever succeeded at in your whole miserable existence. I feel kinda sad that EQ is the pinnacle of your accomplishments, that being said, making the server unenjoyable for everyone else is a pathetic strategy employed solely by pathetic no life losers.

just here to remind you all whats really up.

[gotrocks]

I was going to say something about how not allowing training in vp would just put more stress on an already overworked staff, but I decided to say this instead:

tass, just wait for velious. If you have noticed so many people 'coming and going' from the server (the fuck? we have ~800+ active players a night, and its summer. server is thriving and pop steadily growing) because they 'see the end game and dont want any part of it' its because we've been in kunark for two years, not because tmo 'dominates all the competition'. I know there are a handful of players who ONLY want to raid the big targets, and ONLY want to see the absolute best stuff EQ has to throw at them, but there is an even larger majority that is happy getting smaller targets, just being in fear again after 13 years, etc. For those that are frustrated with not getting the big stuff... not sure what to tell you. From a pure technical standpoint, its an even playing field, gear doesn't make a gigantic difference when you're talking about nailing and end game target (i suppose it would help you survive training in vp.. a little, but its not night and day), so it comes down to numbers + mobilization, and how willing you are to dedicate your life to p99.


You've made so many threads, so many posts, thrown everything at the wall just to see what sticks, and i'm telling you you're wasting your time. If you'd like to throw your hands up in the air and say 'fine!!! Then the server will die!!' that's your choice, but you're wrong. Server is thriving, will continue to thrive, and will explode even more when winter comes.

^^everything above is 100% true whether you want to see it or not. stop stressing yourself out over this, dude!

[Pint]

If you believe for a second that TMO couldn't split forces and kill targets inside VP and outside of it at the same time you haven't been around very long.

I doubt anyone is going to claim you couldn't still get a disproportiate chunk of the targets, the idea is simply to raise the bar for tmo while slightly increasing the chances that smaller guilds could pull out a few lucky kills. Clearly this doesn't square with your guilds mentality though. It seems like it would be fairly simple for training to be disallowed for a month or two while forcing server resets just to see how the distribution falls.

[Godefroi]

itt: tmo douches trying to tell everyone they're better than the rest

i use the term ´trying´ because all you are better at than anyone else is being unemployed basement dwellers with no life. I totally understand why you don't want anyone to ´take away´the only thing you ever succeeded at in your whole miserable existence. I feel kinda sad that EQ is the pinnacle of your accomplishments, that being said, making the server unenjoyable for everyone else is a pathetic strategy employed solely by pathetic no life losers.

just here to remind you all whats really up.


well.

Even if this is true, no need to become all agressive. its a game jeez.

As much as I dislike TMO as a guild and shit on them, I enjoy talking to some of those weirdos.
Eccezan being the only exception, cause getting under his skin is too delicious.

[meadtj]

If you're reading this, my guess is that the title of this thread had captured your attention.

Now I've played on P1999 for several years now, on multiple characters in multiple guilds. Each one has been a raiding guild. I've dabbled with guilds such as Dark Ascension and The Mystical Order, just to name a few, and every guild I've been apart of has been first and foremost, a raiding guild.

Through these experiences I've come to notice that the way you're forced to go about raiding on P1999, well, it just isn't very much fun.

It's not very much fun because there's such thing here as fair competition. Imagine if you would, a game of chess where black has the official starting pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 8 pawns.

Now imagine you're black, and you're playing the game against white, who's starting pieces are: 1 king, 7 queens, and 8 pawns.

Just doesn't sound like equality.

Sure, if you've two basketball teams on the court, one's bound to have superior players, better strategies, harder training regiments, etc., but they're both going to sport 5 players, and each side of the court's got the same measurements, and both teams still abide by all the same rules and undergo the same penalties.

What I'm getting at here is to reinforce the idea that this whole "competitive" aspect of P1999 raiding is an illusion. From my experience, there seems to be a clear outcry to continue to focus on this same-old competitive aspect of raiding from the more efficient raid guilds. And why not? This is of course directly in their best interests. Why share when you can take more than the other guy?

There seems to be a second group of raiders who feel so vehemently toward a given guild(s), that the mere idea of not having the opportunity to take something from these most hated groups, simply boils them up from the very soul outward.

And that's about it. You've got the group who wants nothing to change because they're already getting theirs, and you have the group who may or may not be getting much, but what they're getting keeps them in favor of this same competitive system because when they do get some, they relish in the idea of imaginary bragging rights against the group(s) they hate so avidly.

If you don't believe me you can just run a quick scan across the forums at the myriad of flames from guild to guild. You've got people from TMO blatantly bashing other guilds, calling them names, ridiculing them, and frankly, being very unsportsmanlike for a very competitive, sport-like endeavor. It's not TMO I'm talking about though, nor are they the focus nor major culprit of this topic. It's all the guilds. You've got guilds hating one another, telling lies about each others members, blowing up in public channels, across voice software, all over the forums... The list continues.

So what's the damned point? Well, the point is, why are we still accepting this archaic outlook on this server? How is it fun to log out next to a raid target, leave your guilds common voice-chat program open, awaiting the call, only to log on, play the game for a grand total of maybe 5-15 minutes, then move your character(s) to another target or targets, then rinse and repeat the process?

Whatever happened to actually logging in and playing the game? When did Everquest raiding mean you've got to have multiple max level characters just to stay logged in?

It's not just about who gets the most or who gets the least. It's a culmination of principles and what's most positive for the community.

I for one would implore the server administrators to take another look at the state of affairs on this server regarding raiding. We can do better than this. We can do better than forcing the staff to come up with a slew of seriously ridiculous, arbitrary rulesets to safeguard an illusionary form of competition between a select few guilds and a large minority of the playerbase.

Everquest wasn't like this. Not on any server I'd played on, nor the server in which I was a guide.

I for one hear more disdain, irritation, and sheer flagrant hatred come from the current system than I do positives on how things are running.

Do we want better? Do the players on this server deserve better? Can't we do better than this?

I think we can.

I honestly well...thought you were gonna say raiding on this server was somehow different from liveservers. Not all this garbage. From what your saying this is exactly how things were pre-velious in EQ. Then velious came out and everyone else started getting trash from the other places or killing vindi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqrVl4MwWpg

[GreyPowerVan]

Lol, it's so funny how TMO defend their training by just calling people names and making fun of them.

Nice passive aggressiveness, guys.

DISCLAIMER: i don't raid and won't raid on this server probably, don't even have a 60 --- i just like the drama.

[Morgander]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post. First, let me just say that I'm a returning player after a 2 year hiatus. I just returned to p99 this year. So, I'm not exactly current on all the raid/guild drama that has occurred on the server. However, from reading several of the raiding discussions and hearing some of the history of TMO, I've gathered this much (by all means correct me if I'm wrong):

Training in VP has been allowed since the zone opened. Raiding rules have always been fairly the same aside from a few changes like variance, FTE, and what not. For the most part though there has not been some substantial, game changing rule. Now, TMO has not always been the top guild. From what I understand, TMO at one point in time used to wipe breaking into fear. I've read a few posts of people mocking TMO for this. So, obviously they have not always been as strong as they are now.

What does that tell me? That tells me that TMO had to work to get to where they are within the same rules and guildelines that are currently implemented. TMO had to deal with the same trains any other guild has to deal with when they raid VP.

With that said, let me address some of these ridiculous analogies and comparisons. First off, comparing the raiding scene of EverQuest (a game) to an economic monopoly or the gas wars is just plain retarded (for lack of a better word). Almost as retarded as comparing it to a room of people where not sharing food could result in the death of another person. I'm pretty sure no one on the server is going to die if they don't get their raid loots. These are terrible examples for one reason. EverQuest is a GAME. It's a GAME. A GAME! How can you compare a GAME to the economy of the real world? In the GAME of EverQuest I can choose whether or not I am affected by simply not playing or not participating in certain aspects of the game and it having no impact on my livelihood. I had started to type up an in-depth explanation, but in all honesty, if you can't see how stupid this sounds, then nothing I say is going to change your mind or feelings about this.

A proper comparison of EverQuest (again, a game) would be to yet another type of game. The comparison to chess was actually quite good, because like EverQuest, chess is a game. Ever heard of the saying comparing apples to oranges? That's what you're doing with the EQ raiding scene and the gas wars (lol). How about we stick to apples? So, what would be a good comparison for the raiding scene of EQ? In my opinion, Kind of the Hill. Ever play? See, in King of the Hill, a certain spot is deemed "the hill" and the "King" is whoever stands on it. The objective of the other players is to knock the king off the hill and control it themselves. Whoever controls the hill the longest is winning or wins the game. That's what TMO is right now. They are the King of the Hill. They weren't at one point though. See, they played the game and they knocked the previous king off the hill. And because they are so good at the game, everyone wants to cry out for a rule change. However, what rule changes were made when TMO wasn't the king? Was the previous king told to step down from the hill and give TMO a chance at king?

Like most games, there are winners and losers. The beauty of EverQuest is you get to decide how you win at the game. For me, winning is being the best on the server. That's my win and I'm pretty sure TMO shares in the same sentiment. They want to win and winning to them is being the strongest guild and in order to be the strongest guild, they need to kill the strongest mobs. So, why exactly should they share? Why should they favor a rotation? They played the game within the rules and are currently winning. It's like if we were playing basketball and TMO just scored a 3 pointer, you expect them to give you the ball and allow you to try and shoot a 3 pointer except you want a change in the rules. You want to say TMO isn't allowed to steal the ball or attempt to block your shot even though you were absolutely allowed to do it to them, but either didn't or just weren't able too.

Anyway, this seems classic to me. On E`Ci Reconstructed was the boss guild and they controlled the end game and weren't content with sharing with any competing guilds. And why should they? We are playing a game aren't we? I'm not about to let the opposing team shoot 3 pointers all day long uncontested and I'm damn sure not about to let that one kid stand on my hill for too long either. Play the game.

But this isn't even how Everquest works.

Everquest's mechanics allow kill stealing, boxing, training, and by definition of the coding, allow for a single group with the highest dps to get every kill on every mob (not the raid-force, but the single group).

We're forced to come up with rules to ensure these base mechanics cannot be manipulated by those players who could and would do whatever it takes to "win".

Had Everquest actually functioned like this (or P1999 for that matter), then there would be no such thing as rules arbitration.

Want to be the "best", as you've described? Allow universal training and kill stealing. Why do we even have an FTE rule then? Why not just let everything be completely free for all, and let the single group with the highest dps get the kill and the loot?

You defend a situation on the basis of your personal desires, and that's the only basis you have to compare logic here. Your logic reasons that, the current rules MOST benefit your own personal agenda, therefore it's the most appropriate ruleset.

Should FTE rules be revoked, should training and kill stealing be universally accepted, then you'll "win" a whole lot less, get frustrated, and demand change.

Now if what you've stated is blatant truth, this shouldn't be the case, but I know it would be.

It's a hypocrisy, and you know it is. I shouldn't have to point this out, it's as bright as day.

You're backing a system that endorses your point of view.

The difference between you and I, is that I'm not even endorsing a system here. The only thing I'm doing is stating that logging out characters to "poop-sock" isn't fun, and that the current raid situation isn't even good competition.

Never did I say that I felt competition is in poor taste. Never did I say that I felt that any one guild or group of guilds should not be able to "be the best". I simply presented two ideas: "'Poop-socking' is boring ---- 'the current raid system doesn't apply good competition factors'".

And besides, if the argument here is really going to be that "the best are the best and should remain the best because they're the best", then the "best" need not worry about superficial rules like FTE and training. Right?

If you can still get all the loot even with kill stealing, training, boxing, and everything else we've got a rule for, then you're even MORE the best.

But that's not really what you want.

[Autotune]

Kill stealing is legal in VP.

[Arteker]

But this isn't even how Everquest works.

Everquest's mechanics allow kill stealing, boxing, training, and by definition of the coding, allow for a single group with the highest dps to get every kill on every mob (not the raid-force, but the single group).

We're forced to come up with rules to ensure these base mechanics cannot be manipulated by those players who could and would do whatever it takes to "win".

Had Everquest actually functioned like this (or P1999 for that matter), then there would be no such thing as rules arbitration.

Want to be the "best", as you've described? Allow universal training and kill stealing. Why do we even have an FTE rule then? Why not just let everything be completely free for all, and let the single group with the highest dps get the kill and the loot?

You defend a situation on the basis of your personal desires, and that's the only basis you have to compare logic here. Your logic reasons that, the current rules MOST benefit your own personal agenda, therefore it's the most appropriate ruleset.

Should FTE rules be revoked, should training and kill stealing be universally accepted, then you'll "win" a whole lot less, get frustrated, and demand change.

Now if what you've stated is blatant truth, this shouldn't be the case, but I know it would be.

It's a hypocrisy, and you know it is. I shouldn't have to point this out, it's as bright as day.

You're backing a system that endorses your point of view.

The difference between you and I, is that I'm not even endorsing a system here. The only thing I'm doing is stating that logging out characters to "poop-sock" isn't fun, and that the current raid situation isn't even good competition.

Never did I say that I felt competition is in poor taste. Never did I say that I felt that any one guild or group of guilds should not be able to "be the best". I simply presented two ideas: "'Poop-socking' is boring ---- 'the current raid system doesn't apply good competition factors'".

And besides, if the argument here is really going to be that "the best are the best and should remain the best because they're the best", then the "best" need not worry about superficial rules like FTE and training. Right?

If you can still get all the loot even with kill stealing, training, boxing, and everything else we've got a rule for, then you're even MORE the best.

But that's not really what you want.
if tmo didint follow the rules then u would even cry bigger and bigger , as top guild and with other looking for any exuse to kick us we usualy plety carefull to obey staff rules.
unlike otehrs i can name :p

[Arteker]

Kill stealing is legal in VP.

and FE tried x2 times in vp but aswell did not worked .

[gotrocks]

**headdesk**

[Autotune]

I personally think what W8gamer posted was spot on and that it just completely went over Morganders head.

[Tiddlywinks]

You can't honestly say that you have been around long enough to see TMO single handedly push hundreds of players away from p99 and still think nothing is wrong with p99 raiding.

Couldn't agree more.

[Tiddlywinks]

Ok, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post. First, let me just say that I'm a returning player after a 2 year hiatus. I just returned to p99 this year. So, I'm not exactly current on all the raid/guild drama that has occurred on the server. However, from reading several of the raiding discussions and hearing some of the history of TMO, I've gathered this much (by all means correct me if I'm wrong):

Training in VP has been allowed since the zone opened. Raiding rules have always been fairly the same aside from a few changes like variance, FTE, and what not. For the most part though there has not been some substantial, game changing rule. Now, TMO has not always been the top guild. From what I understand, TMO at one point in time used to wipe breaking into fear. I've read a few posts of people mocking TMO for this. So, obviously they have not always been as strong as they are now.

What does that tell me? That tells me that TMO had to work to get to where they are within the same rules and guildelines that are currently implemented. TMO had to deal with the same trains any other guild has to deal with when they raid VP.

With that said, let me address some of these ridiculous analogies and comparisons. First off, comparing the raiding scene of EverQuest (a game) to an economic monopoly or the gas wars is just plain retarded (for lack of a better word). Almost as retarded as comparing it to a room of people where not sharing food could result in the death of another person. I'm pretty sure no one on the server is going to die if they don't get their raid loots. These are terrible examples for one reason. EverQuest is a GAME. It's a GAME. A GAME! How can you compare a GAME to the economy of the real world? In the GAME of EverQuest I can choose whether or not I am affected by simply not playing or not participating in certain aspects of the game and it having no impact on my livelihood. I had started to type up an in-depth explanation, but in all honesty, if you can't see how stupid this sounds, then nothing I say is going to change your mind or feelings about this.

A proper comparison of EverQuest (again, a game) would be to yet another type of game. The comparison to chess was actually quite good, because like EverQuest, chess is a game. Ever heard of the saying comparing apples to oranges? That's what you're doing with the EQ raiding scene and the gas wars (lol). How about we stick to apples? So, what would be a good comparison for the raiding scene of EQ? In my opinion, Kind of the Hill. Ever play? See, in King of the Hill, a certain spot is deemed "the hill" and the "King" is whoever stands on it. The objective of the other players is to knock the king off the hill and control it themselves. Whoever controls the hill the longest is winning or wins the game. That's what TMO is right now. They are the King of the Hill. They weren't at one point though. See, they played the game and they knocked the previous king off the hill. And because they are so good at the game, everyone wants to cry out for a rule change. However, what rule changes were made when TMO wasn't the king? Was the previous king told to step down from the hill and give TMO a chance at king?

Like most games, there are winners and losers. The beauty of EverQuest is you get to decide how you win at the game. For me, winning is being the best on the server. That's my win and I'm pretty sure TMO shares in the same sentiment. They want to win and winning to them is being the strongest guild and in order to be the strongest guild, they need to kill the strongest mobs. So, why exactly should they share? Why should they favor a rotation? They played the game within the rules and are currently winning. It's like if we were playing basketball and TMO just scored a 3 pointer, you expect them to give you the ball and allow you to try and shoot a 3 pointer except you want a change in the rules. You want to say TMO isn't allowed to steal the ball or attempt to block your shot even though you were absolutely allowed to do it to them, but either didn't or just weren't able too.

Anyway, this seems classic to me. On E`Ci Reconstructed was the boss guild and they controlled the end game and weren't content with sharing with any competing guilds. And why should they? We are playing a game aren't we? I'm not about to let the opposing team shoot 3 pointers all day long uncontested and I'm damn sure not about to let that one kid stand on my hill for too long either. Play the game.

The only thing worth adding is how TMO went from not being able to break fear and wiping to Draco despite using Ivandyrs Hoops to the top guild. They merged with the former #2 raiding guild (Fusion/Dark Ascension etc) and began to challenge the #1 guild (Transatlantic Rampage/Inglourious Basterds etc) on Trakanon so that they could get keys to VP before it opened since it was delayed about 8 months on this server. More than half a year of mostly equal competition, both guilds were sitting on a 1 week raid suspension handed down by former GM Amelinda.

In the middle of that suspension, without notifying anybody from any other guilds, Amelinda secretly lifted TMO's raid suspension and this enraged the other guild at the time (renamed Inglourious Basterds again by this point) to stop playing on the server.

It was later revealed that a member of TMO (quickfingers aka tiggle) was Amelinda's girlfriend, and it was also revealed that Amelinda had taken bribes from members of the community that were selling things for USD.

In threads such as this TMO will typically try to stand behind their reason of "we had to play by these rules to achieve what we did, and so should you" but will conveniently leave out details such as how they came into being the undisputed #1 guild on the server. Since then they've only grown stronger.

Disregarding all logic for why the current non-classic raid scene inside of VP should be made better and ignoring all arguments for it (because the scene currently favors them and only them).

Just thought that may be worth mentioning as to why the majority of players hate the current raid scene, think it unfair, and believe a change to a more-classic and PVE friendly end-game would be beneficial and the best route.

[Tiddlywinks]

This is pretty much spot on.

However, a correction and point of interest, VP was released and it was under a mandatory "rotation" of sorts. IB and TMO rolled off for dragons and Rogean/Nilbog watched the encounters to see how they functioned.

Most people like to think it was staff giving TMO dragons/loot, but actually they just didn't want to deal with IB and TMO's crap for hours on end just to see how their dragons were going to hold up.

Most people believe this because TR/IB had been ready to raid VP months before another guild on the server had killed Trakanon. The delay with VP's release gave time for another force (the newly-merged TMO) to key up and be allowed to rotate with TR.

[gotrocks]

I was going to say something about how not allowing training in vp would just put more stress on an already overworked staff, but I decided to say this instead:

I guess this does need to be repeated.

[Autotune]

The only thing worth adding is how TMO went from not being able to break fear and wiping to Draco despite using Ivandyrs Hoops to the top guild. They merged with the former #2 raiding guild (Fusion/Dark Ascension etc) and began to challenge the #1 guild (Transatlantic Rampage/Inglourious Basterds etc) on Trakanon so that they could get keys to VP before it opened since it was delayed about 8 months on this server. More than half a year of mostly equal competition, both guilds were sitting on a 1 week raid suspension handed down by former GM Amelinda.

In the middle of that suspension, without notifying anybody from any other guilds, Amelinda secretly lifted TMO's raid suspension and this enraged the other guild at the time (renamed Inglourious Basterds again by this point) to stop playing on the server.

It was later revealed that a member of TMO (quickfingers aka tiggle) was Amelinda's girlfriend, and it was also revealed that Amelinda had taken bribes from members of the community that were selling things for USD.

In threads such as this TMO will typically try to stand behind their reason of "we had to play by these rules to achieve what we did, and so should you" but will conveniently leave out details such as how they came into being the undisputed #1 guild on the server. Since then they've only grown stronger.

Disregarding all logic for why the current non-classic raid scene inside of VP should be made better and ignoring all arguments for it (because the scene currently favors them and only them).

Just thought that may be worth mentioning as to why the majority of players hate the current raid scene, think it unfair, and believe a change to a more-classic and PVE friendly end-game would be beneficial and the best route.

Amelinda lifted our suspension early because of me and I even told a few IB members that it was going to happen, they didn't believe me. We were suspended because VD tried to KS our inny and put themselves on the aggro list of a train away. Inny died, dropped two eyes, i snagged one and called for anyone else in the group to snag the other eye. Reason? Because the week before we had someone ninja loot and delete an epic piece off CT that wasn't in our guild.

VD chose to park their raid on ours, chose to engage our Inny and add themselves to the aggro list of a train, and chose to hang out on his corpse. Their fraps was so full of propaganda (I had one of their members give me the link) and I showed Amelinda where they knew it was our pull and a raid leader/officer told them to engage.

[Autotune]

Most people believe this because TR/IB had been ready to raid VP months before another guild on the server had killed Trakanon. The delay with VP's release gave time for another force (the newly-merged TMO) to key up and be allowed to rotate with TR.

Most people are idiots then

The delay wasn't to give another guild time, the delay was because it was taking awhile to get the zone right (it wasn't even right when it was released).

[Tiddlywinks]

Amelinda lifted our suspension early because of me and I even told a few IB members that it was going to happen, they didn't believe me. We were suspended because VD tried to KS our inny and put themselves on the aggro list of a train away. Inny died, dropped two eyes, i snagged one and called for anyone else in the group to snag the other eye. Reason? Because the week before we had someone ninja loot and delete an epic piece off CT that wasn't in our guild.

VD chose to park their raid on ours, chose to engage our Inny and add themselves to the aggro list of a train, and chose to hang out on his corpse. Their fraps was so full of propaganda (I had one of their members give me the link) and I showed Amelinda where they knew it was our pull and a raid leader/officer told them to engage.

The act that got the suspension unlifted doesn't even matter, that shit is ancient history. The thing that matters now, and the reason people think things are unfair stems from the fact Amelinda didn't openly state anything at the time, and was later revealed to be Tiggles girlfriend.

That's why IB/TR left the server. That's how TMO became the uncontested #1 guild on the server after months and months of struggles, petitions, trains and all sorts of things.

Thus TMO was given an advantage and a leg-up. This causes people to claim that things such as the raidscene are unfair.

[Tiddlywinks]

Most people are idiots then

The delay wasn't to give another guild time, the delay was because it was taking awhile to get the zone right (it wasn't even right when it was released).

People know it wasnt done intentionally. That doesn't change the fact: IT HAPPENED. Another guild got to share IB/TR mobs because of it when they were rightly the only ones who would have been ready if it were opened on a classic timeline.

Do you ever stop and wonder what the raid scene would be like if the rules were the same, but TMO never got to share VP with TR/IB and TR/IB could have just kept TMO and anyone else out of the zone via training?

Probably not, because that's not what happened. Too bad for any other guilds such as FE that are up and come, because this is the exact fucking scenario they are facing and why they think things are not fair.

[Autotune]

The act that got the suspension unlifted doesn't even matter, that shit is ancient history. The thing that matters now, and the reason people think things are unfair stems from the fact Amelinda didn't openly state anything at the time, and was later revealed to be Tiggles girlfriend.

That's why IB/TR left the server. That's how TMO became the uncontested #1 guild on the server after months and months of struggles, petitions, trains and all sorts of things.

Thus TMO was given an advantage and a leg-up. This causes people to claim that things such as the raidscene are unfair.

The act that got it lifted does matter, because your view is flawed and the view of someone ignorant to the facts.

Amelinda and Tiggles dating had zero effect on what she did/didn't do to TMO.

Amelinda didn't openly state anything because as a GM she doesn't have to inform players of her every decision. TMO took advantage and kept the lifting of the suspension a secret. It was a well played maneuver on TMO's part.

[Autotune]

People know it wasnt done intentionally. That doesn't change the fact: IT HAPPENED. Another guild got to share IB/TR mobs because of it when they were rightly the only ones who would have been ready if it were opened on a classic timeline.

Do you ever stop and wonder what the raid scene would be like if the rules were the same, but TMO never got to share VP with TR/IB and TR/IB could have just kept TMO and anyone else out of the zone via training?

Probably not, because that's not what happened. Too bad for any other guilds such as FE that are up and come, because this is the exact fucking scenario they are facing and why they think things are not fair.

I don't stop and wonder, because it doesn't matter. You can play what ifs all day long, it doesn't matter because it didn't happen.

IB/TR could have chose not to rotate with TMO, but they did anyhow. IB/TR being in VP wouldn't have stopped TMO from getting keyed and the VP loot advantage wouldn't of helped IB/TR in VP when TMO did enter. Especially because IB/TR was a guild that had peaks in raiding and had multiple members come and go (from breaks) after gearing up.

I can honestly say nothing would have changed other than a few more IB members would have gotten more VP loot before TMO entered.

[Tiddlywinks]

The act that got it lifted does matter, because your view is flawed and the view of someone ignorant to the facts.

Amelinda and Tiggles dating had zero effect on what she did/didn't do to TMO.

Amelinda didn't openly state anything because as a GM she doesn't have to inform players of her ever decision. TMO took advantage and kept the lifting of the suspension a secret. It was a well played maneuver on TMO's part.

"well played maneuver".

Hate to break it to you bub, but when the GM who is dating a member of a competing guild lifts a suspension without informing anybody else because "she doesn't have to" we have a word for that shit: suspicious.

You're probably right though. Nobody thinks the raid scene is unfair or that the raid scene is broken.

The 5 threads in server chat about this topic that show up every week are just Tassle and a few others wanting handouts because they are bad at EverQuest and don't want to have to put in the same amount of "Effort" (see forced vp rotation/past gm-relationships). TMO is amazing and raiding is fantastic and cannot be improved.

The majority saying otherwise is clearly wrong.

P.S. you just admitted that TMO used knowledge only they were given of their raid-suspension being lifted in order to execute a "well played maneuver" while simultaneously stating that Amelinda being tiggles girlfriend at the time had no sway in regards to public opinion on the matter. Ya, I have difficulties wondering why anyone could think that is shady or unfair too, I mean it seems so far-fetched. :eyeroll:

[Tiddlywinks]

I don't stop and wonder, because it doesn't matter. You can play what ifs all day long, it doesn't matter because it didn't happen.

IB/TR could have chose not to rotate with TMO, but they did anyhow. IB/TR being in VP wouldn't have stopped TMO from getting keyed and the VP loot advantage wouldn't of helped IB/TR in VP when TMO did enter. Especially because IB/TR was a guild that had peaks in raiding and had multiple members come and go (from breaks) after gearing up.

I can honestly say nothing would have changed other than a few more IB members would have gotten more VP loot before TMO entered.

IB/TR had no say in the matter. VP was a forced rotation for the first day. Anything else you said in your post past that is just what-ifs you claimed you weren't going to entertain.

That works both ways.

[Buma]

The only thing I can think of that would fix this is if you log out in any raid area or where a raid target spawns your character gets ported back to a single area like maybe near EC tunnel or something if you are logged out longer than 15min. It can be done, question is where to start. To code a entire zone loc from x,y,z and have it send them to a specific spot when they log back in if after 15min.

This would certainly keep people from playing the I got technology you lose mentality. Technology in this case meaning instant chat, cell texting etc...Classic for sure didn't have these easy things for people to use in 1999-2000. You simply went by kill timers if you were lucky to know the last time killed or simply got lucky with your guilds spot checkers (monks, rogues, wizards etc.).

[Autotune]

"well played maneuver".

Hate to break it to you bub, but when the GM who is dating a member of a competing guild lifts a suspension without informing anybody else because "she doesn't have to" we have a word for that shit: suspicious.

You're probably right though. Nobody thinks the raid scene is unfair or that the raid scene is broken.

The 5 threads in server chat about this topic that show up every week are just Tassle and a few others wanting handouts because they are bad at EverQuest and don't want to have to put in the same amount of "Effort" (see forced vp rotation/past gm-relationships). TMO is amazing and raiding is fantastic and cannot be improved.

The majority saying otherwise is clearly wrong.

The majority are ex-IB / Ex-VD I can clearly see how they'd be upset and have their own views to support their own agendas. Those guys obviously want to paint themselves into heroes and martyrs. I'm sure everything is very suspicious.

What is fair? It was never fair the entire time I raided against IB. They stole pulls, trained, lied in petitions, etc the entire time before VP was released and got away with most of it. All the while TMO took a high road approach, then we seen that the GMs didn't really give a shit and did the same shit they did, and it worked. IB got exactly what they wanted.

By your definitions, the raid scene was always broken and was never fair, so why should it be fixed for other people now just because TMO is "on top" eh?

PS: Amelinda raid suspended TMO more than another other guild, I'm sure that was favoritism.

[Autotune]

IB/TR had no say in the matter. VP was a forced rotation for the first day. Anything else you said in your post past that is just what-ifs you claimed you weren't going to entertain.

That works both ways.

IB/TR did have a say in the matter, it was only forced for the first raid. They chose to rotate the following weeks.

I didn't say I wouldn't entertain the what ifs... I said they didn't matter.

Are you being ignorant on purpose?

[Tiddlywinks]

The majority are ex-IB / Ex-VD I can clearly see how they'd be upset and have their own views to support their own agendas. Those guys obviously want to paint themselves into heroes and martyrs. I'm sure everything is very suspicious.

What is fair? It was never fair the entire time I raided against IB. They stole pulls, trained, lied in petitions, etc the entire time before VP was released and got away with most of it. All the while TMO took a high road approach, then we seen that the GMs didn't really give a shit and did the same shit they did, and it worked. IB got exactly what they wanted.

By your definitions, the raid scene was always broken and was never fair, so why should it be fixed for other people now just because TMO is "on top" eh?

PS: Amelinda raid suspended TMO more than another other guild, I'm sure that was favoritism.

Finally we can agree on something.

It should be fixed because this server is the best chance the people who loved classic EverQuest, this community, has at a fair and legitimate recreation of the rules and content that existed at that time.

So let's fucking do it, and fix the issues.

[gotrocks]

So let's fucking do it, and fix the issues.

Please give a bulleted list of what would fix the issues.

[Tiddlywinks]

IB/TR did have a say in the matter, it was only forced for the first raid. They chose to rotate the following weeks.

I didn't say I wouldn't entertain the what ifs... I said they didn't matter.

Are you being ignorant on purpose?

You said they didn't matter, then added your own.

Anyway, my posting the what-ifs is only to show you WHY people think that it was IB/TR that deserved VP at the time and not TMO/anyone else. If you can't, or refuse to understand that then I cannot help you in anyway, I am sorry.

I am the one being ignorant though, QED.

[Tiddlywinks]

Please give a bulleted list of what would fix the issues.

The fixes should not come from one person. I have my opinions on what are best, and am personally in favor of "make it classic regardless of outcomes". Autotune has his, GMs have theirs, and I'm sure you have your own.

It is a community initiative that needs to have full support of GMs, devs, and server staff. There have been some great ideas that have been tossed around this thread and the countless others over the past months/years.

Everyone needs to come together, acknowledge that the majority of players view it as broken/a problem and decide how to fix it.

Everyone has a stake in this.

[Autotune]

Please give a bulleted list of what would fix the issues.

This.

I know for a fact I have taken part of so many "Let's throw ideas around that will fix this shit" thread for ages now and nothing ever gets fixed.

Even if you got everyone to agree on something, you then have to get the GMs to put it in and while Sirken may be on board he still has to get Rogean to put it into effect and that's probably not going to happen.

People are still waiting on simulated patch days and shorter variance windows, how long ago was that talked about being implemented (actually think they made it possible for the windows to only become longer after that).

Which puts people back to hoping TMO will just forget everything that they (the core) had to go through to get where they are now.

[Autotune]

You said they didn't matter, then added your own.

Anyway, my posting the what-ifs is only to show you WHY people think that it was IB/TR that deserved VP at the time and not TMO/anyone else. If you can't, or refuse to understand that then I cannot help you in anyway, I am sorry.

I am the one being ignorant though, QED.

Yeah, I added my own, but it doesn't matter. I entertained an idea that does not matter. I gave you something of equal value back.

I don't see how that is difficult to understand, but I will put it like this. Our opinions on what may or may not have happened does not change anything nor does it add to or take away from what really did happen.

Your what ifs (and mine) don't show anything. People choose to believe what they want for whatever reasons. IB/TR deserved VP and they got it, the only alternative would be to push TMO out of VP and not allow them to raid it for months? This is what you're suggesting, yet you want a "fair" raiding system?

[gotrocks]

The fixes should not come from one person. I have my opinions on what are best, and am personally in favor of "make it classic regardless of outcomes". Autotune has his, GMs have theirs, and I'm sure you have your own.

It is a community initiative that needs to have full support of GMs, devs, and server staff. There have been some great ideas that have been tossed around this thread and the countless others over the past months/years.

Everyone needs to come together, acknowledge that the majority of players view it as broken/a problem and decide how to fix it.

Everyone has a stake in this.

this is a cop out answer.

So far, it looks like the most popular solution is remove training from VP to allow more competition there.

Simulated patch days, I'm for this, but its a dev thing, so... its a dev thing.

I'm telling you right now if you follow what tass has been ranting about for the last... X years and remove training from vp, you're just going to get people yelling about trains, fraps'ing every pull, and sending it to gm's, who very likely do NOT have the time to evaluate every raid kill every time.

Again, i'd like to reiterate that its a very vocal minority that isn't happy with the current raid scene. Most casuals are pretty happy doing what they do now. Population is higher than ever, tons of people having fun all over the place, etc.

[Autotune]

this is a cop out answer.

So far, it looks like the most popular solution is remove training from VP to allow more competition there.

Simulated patch days, I'm for this, but its a dev thing, so... its a dev thing.

I'm telling you right now if you follow what tass has been ranting about for the last... X years and remove training from vp, you're just going to get people yelling about trains, fraps'ing every pull, and sending it to gm's, who very likely do NOT have the time to evaluate every raid kill every time.

Again, i'd like to reiterate that its a very vocal minority that isn't happy with the current raid scene. Most casuals are pretty happy doing what they do now. Population is higher than ever, tons of people having fun all over the place, etc.

Once Velious is released no one will care about the state of VP, especially because I'm sure it will be fixed not long after Velious is released and major issues are corrected.

[Tiddlywinks]

Yeah, I added my own, but it doesn't matter. I entertained an idea that does not matter. I gave you something of equal value back.

I don't see how that is difficult to understand, but I will put it like this. Our opinions on what may or may not have happened does not change anything nor does it add to or take away from what really did happen.

Your what ifs (and mine) don't show anything. People choose to believe what they want for whatever reasons. IB/TR deserved VP and they got it, the only alternative would be to push TMO out of VP and not allow them to raid it for months? This is what you're suggesting, yet you want a "fair" raiding system?

This is pretty much spot on.

However, a correction and point of interest, VP was released and it was under a mandatory "rotation" of sorts. IB and TMO rolled off for dragons and Rogean/Nilbog watched the encounters to see how they functioned.

Most people like to think it was staff giving TMO dragons/loot, but actually they just didn't want to deal with IB and TMO's crap for hours on end just to see how their dragons were going to hold up.


Let's be clear here, I'm giving you the reasons people believe this. Most people know VP is a trainable zone just so GMs don't have to answer petitions there, despite when the rule was made this never being admitted to. It is the only really logical reason.

The off-topic what-ifs are simply to illustrate why these reasons occur.

If "IB/TR wouldn't have had VP to their own on a classic timeline" or "it was the way it was and there is no reason anybody should feel slighted over it" are your only 2 lines of reason then we need to stop discussing this topic right now because we are never going to reach common ground or agree.

You seemed confused about why people feel the way they do, I'm simply trying to show you how they do.

Arguing about whether they are right or wrong is just stupid and doesn't change anything.

[Autotune]

Let's be clear here, I'm giving you the reasons people believe this. Most people know VP is a trainable zone just so GMs don't have to answer petitions there, despite when the rule was made this never being admitted to. It is the only really logical reason.

The off-topic what-ifs are simply to illustrate why these reasons occur.

If "IB/TR wouldn't have had VP to their own on a classic timeline" or "it was the way it was and there is no reason anybody should feel slighted over it" are your only 2 lines of reason then we need to stop discussing this topic right now because we are never going to reach common ground or agree.

You seemed confused about why people feel the way they do, I'm simply trying to show you how they do.

Arguing about whether they are right or wrong is just stupid and doesn't change anything.

Okay, let's go with reality. You say IB/TR deserved VP and TMO didn't. Nothing would have changed the release date of VP.

So, what is your answer to a VP keyed IB and a VP keyed TMO to the problem of IB deserves it and TMO doesn't?

Also, arguing about it is stupid, however people that are wrong should be identified as so, so they don't spread their wrong information to other people.

[Tiddlywinks]

this is a cop out answer.

So far, it looks like the most popular solution is remove training from VP to allow more competition there.

Simulated patch days, I'm for this, but its a dev thing, so... its a dev thing.

I'm telling you right now if you follow what tass has been ranting about for the last... X years and remove training from vp, you're just going to get people yelling about trains, fraps'ing every pull, and sending it to gm's, who very likely do NOT have the time to evaluate every raid kill every time.

Again, i'd like to reiterate that its a very vocal minority that isn't happy with the current raid scene. Most casuals are pretty happy doing what they do now. Population is higher than ever, tons of people having fun all over the place, etc.

How is wanting the GMs, devs, server admins, and players to discuss raid rules a cop-out answer?

[Tiddlywinks]

Okay, let's go with reality. You say IB/TR deserved VP and TMO didn't. Nothing would have changed the release date of VP.

So, what is your answer to a VP keyed IB and a VP keyed TMO to the problem of IB deserves it and TMO doesn't?

Who the fuck cares? It doesn't matter.

The solution is to get in a time machine, release VP when Kunark launches, launch Velious 1 year later, and move along accordingly. That isn't what's going to happen, so who cares.

Also, arguing about it is stupid, however people that are wrong should be identified as so, so they don't spread their wrong information to other people.

Wow... just wow. You must be a sith.

[Tiddlywinks]

Once Velious is released no one will care about the state of VP, especially because I'm sure it will be fixed not long after Velious is released and major issues are corrected.

I don't think this is true. Anyone who cares about classic EverQuest rules and project1999 should continue caring. Especially if any one person can zone into VP because they are bored and train a raid attempting mobs for any/no reason whatsoever.

The rule inside of VP is a travesty and disgrace to those who come here wishing for a classic EverQuest environment. It needs to be fixed regardless of who is looking and when, for the same reason bugs need to be addressed and fixed when found.

Ignoring them is a shame.

[Autotune]

Who the fuck cares? It doesn't matter.

The solution is to get in a time machine, release VP when Kunark launches, launch Velious 1 year later, and move along accordingly. That isn't what's going to happen, so who cares.

You care. You brought it up as if this is TMOs fault and some how attribute things to Amelinda (who was only a guide at the time VP was being delayed).

So I am curious, as you brought all of this up to begin with, what is your answer. IB/TR deserved it so much and the Staff slighted them horribly by making IB/TR rotate a single week, so give an answer.

You talk about how things were so unfair and all of these what ifs, so deliver on it.

or are you going to shy away now with your opinions and "facts"?

[Autotune]

I don't think this is true. Anyone who cares about classic EverQuest rules and project1999 should continue caring. Especially if any one person can zone into VP because they are bored and train a raid attempting mobs for any/no reason whatsoever.

The rule inside of VP is a travesty and disgrace to those who come here wishing for a classic EverQuest environment. It needs to be fixed regardless of who is looking and when, for the same reason bugs need to be addressed and fixed when found.

Ignoring them is a shame.

Then cry about it. No one is forcing you to stay and no one is paying the staff here to do their "jobs".

Want me to fedex you some kleenex?

[Tiddlywinks]

Then cry about it. No one is forcing you to stay and no one is paying the staff here to do their "jobs".

Want me to fedex you some kleenex?

That's what people are doing.. that is the entire point of this thread. People asking for change. Why do you feel it necessary to troll them?

Me personally I haven't played on this server in over 2 years. I just like classic EverQuest and want to see it thrive and live on. Thanks for being an ass about things though. You obviously care so much about others and their opinions.

[gotrocks]

How is wanting the GMs, devs, server admins, and players to discuss raid rules a cop-out answer?

way to go responding to a single sentence of my post.

[Morgander]

I personally think what W8gamer posted was spot on and that it just completely went over Morganders head.

If what he said is true, then he cannot, by definition of his sentiments, concern himself with rules.

Removing the superficial non-mechanics based rulesets and continuing to be "the best", only enhances the idea of "best" by its very nature.

You, like the poster you've detailed herein, are both naturally bias toward your own cause.

Also, for all you know, I'm in TMO. I'll even go as far as to say that if I'm not currently in TMO, then I was in TMO. That's all the information I'm going to provide.

[Autotune]

That's what people are doing.. that is the entire point of this thread. People asking for change. Why do you feel it necessary to troll them?

Me personally I haven't played on this server in over 2 years. I just like classic EverQuest and want to see it thrive and live on. Thanks for being an ass about things though. You obviously care so much about others and their opinions.

Because you guys don't get it through your heads.

People give you road blocks on issues (things that aren't changing until Z happens) and you just keep bashing your head against it as if it's not real.

You say you want X and I tell you Y is the reason it can't happen. You go immediately back to saying you want X and that Y doesn't matter.

Y matters, it's the reason X won't change.

So, unless you have a way to fix Y there is no reason to keep preaching X. I get annoyed because you guys try to give false reasons as to Y even exists in the first place to try and get them to implement X without changing Y. That's never going to work, so stop.

[Tiddlywinks]

way to go responding to a single sentence of my post.

Lol what did you want me to respond to? I personally think that simulated repops are a good idea. I think the server does have a decent population, but I disagree in calling it healthy. A lot of people give up/quit on it after playing long enough to see the way the end game is, and those that stick around come to the forums to post their ideas and then get ignored and trolled for "whining about it". That's not exactly my idea of healthy.

Numbers aren't the only thing that make a healthy server unfortunately. If so, immediately following Kunark release would be the healthiest the server has ever been, and that's just simply not the case. So many bug fixes and good changes have been implemented since then that it is a lie.

[Tiddlywinks]

Because you guys don't get it through your heads.

People give you road blocks on issues (things that aren't changing until Z happens) and you just keep bashing your head against it as if it's not real.

You say you want X and I tell you Y is the reason it can't happen. You go immediately back to saying you want X and that Y doesn't matter.

Y matters, it's the reason X won't change.

So, unless you have a way to fix Y there is no reason to keep preaching X. I get annoyed because you guys try to give false reasons as to Y even exists in the first place to try and get them to implement X without changing Y. That's never going to work, so stop.

Define X and Y, because I don't remember suggesting an X or you ever giving me a Y. You've essentially just been ignoring and trolling my attempts at telling you how and why people feel a certain way.

Not caring "because it's not the way it is" isn't exactly a good Y rofl. If that were how things actually worked, nothing would ever change.

Edit: I also HIGHLY doubt that the people "whining" are ever going to stop so wishing them to do so is probably not going to work out in the long run. If anything, I would say they are gaining steam :)

[gotrocks]

K. I'm out. done all i could. You guys go ahead and argue till your fingers fall off. 1000 people online at 530 on a sunday afternoon not healthy. server is dying. raid scene dead. everyone quit, this ship is sinking.

[Autotune]

If what he said is true, then he cannot, by definition of his sentiments, concern himself with rules.

Removing the superficial non-mechanics based rulesets and continuing to be "the best", only enhances the idea of "best" by its very nature.

You, like the poster you've detailed herein, are both naturally bias toward your own cause.

Also, for all you know, I'm in TMO. I'll even go as far as to say that if I'm not currently in TMO, then I was in TMO. That's all the information I'm going to provide.

I'm not in TMO, I was in TMO, and I have no cause concerning them.

The removal of rules in VP wasn't to allow people to claim they are the best. The reasons are clear as to why it is the way it is.

His point is that the bar was the same height when TMO entered VP (They had to fight with IB) and why should TMO lower the bar for others to make it even for them now.

Until staff fix VP, things aren't going to change unless Sirken has a change of heart concerning his CSR's workload.

These things are set pretty much in stone to only happen upon the other happening.

If you're talking about the rules outside of VP, nothing is wrong with them.

[Autotune]

Define X and Y, because I don't remember suggesting an X or you ever giving me a Y. You've essentially just been ignoring and trolling my attempts at telling you how and why people feel a certain way.

Not caring "because it's not the way it is" isn't exactly a good Y rofl. If that were how things actually worked, nothing would ever change.

Edit: I also HIGHLY doubt that the people "whining" are ever going to stop so wishing them to do so is probably not going to work out in the long run. If anything, I would say they are gaining steam :)

They aren't gaining anything, just wasting their time. Like I am wasting mine towards them.

X would be no rules in VP. Y would be VP pathing is broke. Z is fixing of VP or Sirken changing his mind (which he didn't even hint at being a possibility).

Ignorant people feeling a certain way doesn't need to be explained to me, I know why they feel the way the do and already pointed out why the way they feel is biased.

Misconceptions and lies make ignorant people feel like they were slighted and give impossible problems that can't be fixed based on their fantasy.

Like you bringing up how the staff favored TMO in some way over IB regarding VP, yet can't even give an answer on how to solve that situation fairly.

In essence, you are complaining to complain about bullshit you "feel" to be correct.

[Tiddlywinks]

They aren't gaining anything, just wasting their time. Like I am wasting mine towards them.

X would be no rules in VP. Y would be VP pathing is broke. Z is fixing of VP or Sirken changing his mind (which he didn't even hint at being a possibility).

Ignorant people feeling a certain way doesn't need to be explained to me, I know why they feel the way the do and already pointed out why the way they feel is biased.

Misconceptions and lies make ignorant people feel like they were slighted and give impossible problems that can't be fixed based on their fantasy.

Like you bringing up how the staff favored TMO in some way over IB regarding VP, yet can't even give an answer on how to solve that situation fairly.

In essence, you are complaining to complain about bullshit you "feel" to be correct.

Why in God's name would I want to explain how to fix issues that occurred 2 years ago? That's a waste of time, and I already said as much here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1106778&postcount=155

And of course I am complaining about bullshit and that is the entire point of the thread. Am I missing something?

[Autotune]

Why in God's name would I want to explain how to fix issues that occurred 2 years ago? That's a waste of time, and I already said as much here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1106778&postcount=155

And of course I am complaining about bullshit and that is the entire point of the thread. Am I missing something?

Yeah, you are complaining yet offer no solutions to what you are complaining about.

You are no better than a troll.

[Champion_Standing]

The p99 raid scene is just a place for fat nerds to feel like they are actually doing something significant with their lives for 5 minutes at a time.

[Tiddlywinks]

Yeah, you are complaining yet offer no solutions to what you are complaining about.

You are no better than a troll.

Actually I did offer a solution to the problem, however it involves a time machine, since that's the only way to fix problems that occured 2 years ago.

No solution proposed today is going to fix issues that occured in the past. Time only moves in one direction.

Got it?

[Tiddlywinks]

That said, let's discuss how to fix the FUTURE raiding on this server sooner rather than later.

It would be a sad state of affairs to see things like training allowed in end game zones such as ST/NToV and non-classic variances to continue just because it's what makes some peoples lives easier.

Go classic or go home.

[Nirgon]

Really? You're trying to tell me that vanilla through Kunark DIDNT last 4 years?

Please, do go on.

[Llodd]

K. I'm out. done all i could. You guys go ahead and argue till your fingers fall off. 1000 people online at 530 on a sunday afternoon not healthy. server is dying. raid scene dead. everyone quit, this ship is sinking.

If it was, I wonder how fast things would be 'fixed' ;)

Anyhow. The only thing I personally wonder about is the amount of casuals that once they get to the higher echelons quit because they see no way of experiencing the endgame. That must happen, but to what degree. The influx of new players keep the overall figures quite high it appears. If there had been true competition in VP for the past 3 years or so, would the server population be even higher than it is today, would the turnover be less.

Without being able to measure that and the population being good, there really is no compulsion on the devs to change things, and yet if what i said is true (and I really can't see the opposite being true - "hey come to p99 where you have little to no chance of seeing the endzone unless you join TMO/whoever is topdog!!") they have shot themselves in the foot somewhat.

[Tiddlywinks]

If it was, I wonder how fast things would be 'fixed' ;)

Anyhow. The only thing I personally wonder about is the amount of casuals that once they get to the higher echelons quit because they see no way of experiencing the endgame. That must happen, but to what degree. The influx of new players keep the overall figures quite high it appears. If there had been true competition in VP for the past 3 years or so, would the server population be even higher than it is today, would the turnover be less.

Without being able to measure that and the population being good, there really is no compulsion on the devs to change things, and yet if what i said is true (and I really can't see the opposite being true - "hey come to p99 where you have little to no chance of seeing the endzone unless you join TMO/whoever is topdog!!") they have shot themselves in the foot somewhat.

I think that this is absolutely something that needs to be looked into. We've seen it time and again on the forums where people quit for these reasons, but those are the vocal few. How often does it happen silently I wonder? It sounds like a very hard thing to capture data on, since the most direct method would be a poll of some sort, but if somebody has quit they are far less likely to see and/or respond to the poll. That's why a lot of services ask for feedback when someone cancels or discountinues use of the service. We could check the database and compare #of accounts that were active in the past to #of accounts active currently and try to compare patterns, but that sounds like more work than it might be worth.

The only option I can really come up with for capturing this kind of data is something like a poll for current players to vote on whether or not they are satisfied with the way things are, or if they would like to see changes, but we see those polls and this thread every single week and still nothing happens despite and overwhelming majority speaking out.

As a player I could see how it could become a little disheartening to continually see nothing done. It would be nice if something were happening besides the constant churn provided by these threads/polls everyday. That's not getting us anywhere.

What else can we do to determine how big of an issue this is? Aside from making polls/continue posting in threads such as this I'm at a loss.

Anyone else have ideas?

[Zeds]

I don't see how eliminating training will have a negative impact on anyone, its not like people in TMO are going to quit if it happens. If anything its going to boost server pop quite a bit because it will open up a lot more things for people to do in the end game. Eliminating training shouldn't change anything for them anyways if they have the raid force everyone is claiming they do.

[Autotune]

I don't see how eliminating training will have a negative impact on anyone, its not like people in TMO are going to quit if it happens. If anything its going to boost server pop quite a bit because it will open up a lot more things for people to do in the end game. Eliminating training shouldn't change anything for them anyways if they have the raid force everyone is claiming they do.

Eliminating training is not something that will be determined by what players want or feel.

Training is legal do to a staff decision regarding the pathing quality in VP.

Welcome to the discussion.

[Autotune]

That said, let's discuss how to fix the FUTURE raiding on this server sooner rather than later.

It would be a sad state of affairs to see things like training allowed in end game zones such as ST/NToV and non-classic variances to continue just because it's what makes some peoples lives easier.

Go classic or go home.

More Trolling. Perhaps you should just go home.

[Tiddlywinks]

How is that trolling? I'm almost through bothering to reply to you, you clearly have nothing to offer to further this discussions aside from sticking your head in the mud and proclaiming at the top of your lungs "It is the way it is because people made it that way for a specific reason and therefore it is not worth whining about or discussing ways that it can be changed".

Then, when someone says something logical you claim it's trolling.

I think you're the one that needs to go home, and leave the people trying to be constructive alone. Stifling discussions you don't agree with is not productive.

[Zeds]

Eliminating training is not something that will be determined by what players want or feel.

Training is legal do to a staff decision regarding the pathing quality in VP.

Welcome to the discussion.

Thanks. I'm curious, without searching for more information, is it safe to say that the pathing in VP causes too many issues with "accidental" training in its own right, which in turn would cause a plethora of additional petitions to go along with the flood of petitions from making training in the zone against the rules? Or rather, the amount of extra work required for upholding a rule change like this would cause too much strain on the current GM population, and outweighs the benefit?

[Champion_Standing]

More Trolling. Perhaps you should just go home.

weren't you banned for cheating? Why do you even post here?

[Strifer]

Might as well call VP Shining Time Station because from what I've gathered this is what it looks like when mobs are up;

http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/000894/files/001517122/walltastic-thomas-the-train.jpg

[Godefroi]

Really? You're trying to tell me that vanilla through Kunark DIDNT last 4 years?

Please, do go on.

velious 2022

GO big Sean

[Autotune]

Thanks. I'm curious, without searching for more information, is it safe to say that the pathing in VP causes too many issues with "accidental" training in its own right, which in turn would cause a plethora of additional petitions to go along with the flood of petitions from making training in the zone against the rules? Or rather, the amount of extra work required for upholding a rule change like this would cause too much strain on the current GM population, and outweighs the benefit?

Sirken commented stating that pathing is still very poor and doesn't want to deal with the petitions that would most definitely stem from it.

[Bantam 1]

Yeah, you are complaining yet offer no solutions to what you are complaining about.

You are no better than a troll.

I don't agree with you a lot, but I think that a lot of people complain and moan.... but don't offer any real solutions.

I think the reason TMO wants to keep things status quo is because of how volitile raiding guilds are... ie soon as 1 starts to lose ground it collapses... also as I've read they had to fight pretty damn hard to get to be number 1.

If we force a server rotation... why join TMO? FE? IB?

Maybe something like a server rotation with a time limit.

ie if something is spawned more than X hours it becomes FFA.

Any solution would require some give and take... in this case - top end guilds would have to stop bat phoning to kill things asap and more casual guilds would have to mobilize quickly.

I think the top end guilds would benefit in terms of becoming more relaxed and encouraging more raiders to join the server.


As for me personally - I'd want to actually have a shot at raid mobs, but I got real life responsibilities also.... so this concept of "casuals not trying hard enough" is getting silly... it's a private server for a 14 yr old game... lets grow up a bit.

[Champion_Standing]

If we force a server rotation... why join TMO? FE? IB?

Imagine how terrible the game would be if people just joined guilds because they liked playing with the people in them.

[Zeds]

Sirken commented stating that pathing is still very poor and doesn't want to deal with the petitions that would most definitely stem from it.

ok perfect. Now regardless of whether or not we can get the change to happen (which we know is not for the players to decide), what is position on changing the training rule and why? Beneficial? Detrimental? No opinion?

[Autotune]

I don't agree with you a lot, but I think that a lot of people complain and moan.... but don't offer any real solutions.

I think the reason TMO wants to keep things status quo is because of how volitile raiding guilds are... ie soon as 1 starts to lose ground it collapses... also as I've read they had to fight pretty damn hard to get to be number 1.

If we force a server rotation... why join TMO? FE? IB?

Maybe something like a server rotation with a time limit.

ie if something is spawned more than X hours it becomes FFA.

Any solution would require some give and take... in this case - top end guilds would have to stop bat phoning to kill things asap and more casual guilds would have to mobilize quickly.

I think the top end guilds would benefit in terms of becoming more relaxed and encouraging more raiders to join the server.


As for me personally - I'd want to actually have a shot at raid mobs, but I got real life responsibilities also.... so this concept of "casuals not trying hard enough" is getting silly... it's a private server for a 14 yr old game... lets grow up a bit.

I think the closest thing you'll get to a rotation on here, is TMO not mobilizing for targets. In the past, TMO has given up raid targets for the server to go after. However, the only way I would think they would do this is if the "second raiding guild" didn't go after those targets. Would obvious exclude VP raid targets and probably trakanon.

Only thing is, the last few times they did this, the server complained that it wasn't enough and that it was some sinister plot (seriously).

[Autotune]

ok perfect. Now regardless of whether or not we can get the change to happen (which we know is not for the players to decide), what is position on changing the training rule and why? Beneficial? Detrimental? No opinion?

My stance? It most definitely should be changed. Not because it's what I would want, but that's how it should be. However, the pathing does need to be fixed prior.

I can't say that it would be beneficial or detrimental, as the raiding scene here can be quite toxic when the rules are allowed to be abused. Poopsocking in VP isn't a problem due to training, take that away and now you have guilds sitting in VP on top of raid targets, which is as much of a problem as training (raiding health wise).

Training is a fix to more problems than it creates and that is the reason it's still allowed, once it's removed (with pathing fixed or not), more problems will arise and those problems will all have to be settled with GM intervention.

I would imagine Sirken's stance is very similar to mine. It's something that should be done away with, but at the moment it is needed.

[Autotune]

Imagine how terrible the game would be if people just joined guilds because they liked playing with the people in them.

Why only have TMO stay as TMO, they have enough characters and alts to make several guilds and fill up rotation slots.

FE could probably do two guilds.

BDA, probably 3.

Rotations without some form of elitism will not ever work here. Staff will not enforce a server rotation and there are enough players who don't want it that they can easily stop one from ever taking off.

[Bantam 1]

I think the closest thing you'll get to a rotation on here, is TMO not mobilizing for targets. In the past, TMO has given up raid targets for the server to go after. However, the only way I would think they would do this is if the "second raiding guild" didn't go after those targets. Would obvious exclude VP raid targets and probably trakanon.

Only thing is, the last few times they did this, the server complained that it wasn't enough and that it was some sinister plot (seriously).

I think you and I are on the same page on this one. I think the solution will most likely be TMO/IB/FE leaving stuff up come Velious or purposely talking to less hardcore guilds to give them shots at things which would encourage more new people to join the serve and raid. (IE better/more potential recruits).

Anyways hope this discussion goes somewhere.

[Zeds]

My stance? It most definitely should be changed. Not because it's what I would want, but that's how it should be. However, the pathing does need to be fixed prior.

I can't say that it would be beneficial or detrimental, as the raiding scene here can be quite toxic when the rules are allowed to be abused. Poopsocking in VP isn't a problem due to training, take that away and now you have guilds sitting in VP on top of raid targets, which is as much of a problem as training (raiding health wise).

Training is a fix to more problems than it creates and that is the reason it's still allowed, once it's removed (with pathing fixed or not), more problems will arise and those problems will all have to be settled with GM intervention.

I would imagine Sirken's stance is very similar to mine. It's something that should be done away with, but at the moment it is needed.

Understandable, so lets dig a little deeper. The issue here isn't whether or not it should be changed, but rather, there needs to be more man power to accommodate the petitions/enforce the rules if it does get changed. This project is literally busting at the seams with players, and this change is a step in the right direction in getting even more long term players. In order for the change to happen though, more people need to step up and volunteer/apply as GMs to handle the higher work load.

On that note I think the current staff have done an awesome job with such a small crew on getting the project to this point, now the question for them is do they expand the staff further to make these types of changes reality and continue to see player growth or are they content with the current numbers?

[Autotune]

Understandable, so lets dig a little deeper. The issue here isn't whether or not it should be changed, but rather, there needs to be more man power to accommodate the petitions/enforce the rules if it does get changed. This project is literally busting at the seams with players, and this change is a step in the right direction in getting even more long term players. In order for the change to happen though, more people need to step up and volunteer/apply as GMs to handle the higher work load.

On that note I think the current staff have done an awesome job with such a small crew on getting the project to this point, now the question for them is do they expand the staff further to make these types of changes reality and continue to see player growth or are they content with the current numbers?

Only thing with this, is that top end raiders don't want just anyone handling these petitions and neither does Sirken (I'd imagine anyhow). The top end raiders bitch the loudest and having bad calls and the endless RnF threads bitching about how GMs handled a call ends up being very bad press. It's as bad or worse than how things are now with training.

More CSR isn't a bad thing, just have to remember that they all need to be vetted by Sirken and Rogean and those people have to earn their trust and position over a long period of time (generally speaking).

[Arteker]

I think you and I are on the same page on this one. I think the solution will most likely be TMO/IB/FE leaving stuff up come Velious or purposely talking to less hardcore guilds to give them shots at things which would encourage more new people to join the serve and raid. (IE better/more potential recruits).

Anyways hope this discussion goes somewhere.

blablabla dude always the same song however the server population keeps stable and at some points growth up.

in general i have found most people dont want to put the time and what is needed to experience high end raidin.
like having proper sets of resists, key quests and many other stuff.

[Tasslehofp99]

blablabla dude always the same song however the server population keeps stable and at some points growth up.

in general i have found most people dont want to put the time and what is needed to experience high end raidin.
like having proper sets of resists, key quests and many other stuff.

Not true, the server population IS up right now. There were times though during the first year of kunark when the population was absolutely dreadful. I would say there was a 3-6 month period where the server pop going over 500 people was good.


Either way, the raiding scene is stagnant and there are some simple fixes that would help it out as well as provide a more classic representation of Everquest. Why should we not discuss these issues? Even Nilbog himself said he would consider removing training from VP (as it is not classic) so obviously people want to discuss how we can get this done as well as other potential fixes to the raiding scene.

[Morgander]

I don't agree with you a lot, but I think that a lot of people complain and moan.... but don't offer any real solutions.

I think the reason TMO wants to keep things status quo is because of how volitile raiding guilds are... ie soon as 1 starts to lose ground it collapses... also as I've read they had to fight pretty damn hard to get to be number 1.

If we force a server rotation... why join TMO? FE? IB?

Maybe something like a server rotation with a time limit.

ie if something is spawned more than X hours it becomes FFA.

Any solution would require some give and take... in this case - top end guilds would have to stop bat phoning to kill things asap and more casual guilds would have to mobilize quickly.

I think the top end guilds would benefit in terms of becoming more relaxed and encouraging more raiders to join the server.


As for me personally - I'd want to actually have a shot at raid mobs, but I got real life responsibilities also.... so this concept of "casuals not trying hard enough" is getting silly... it's a private server for a 14 yr old game... lets grow up a bit.

Now granted, I did not create this thread with the intention of forced rotations, but there is something to be said about this post.

There are a lot of good ideas out there that could be utilized to make raiding more fun.

I am sure that most guilds wouldn't be able to kill just any raid target they wanted to. In old EQ, that was actually what typically devided one raid guild from another. Most "raid" guilds in classic (pre-Kunark I'm talking here) couldn't kill more than the sub bosses of a given planer zone.

Some possible ways to make raiding more entertaining and "fair"?

No more poop socking. Restrict players from camping out at a raid mob.

Have completely random raid mob respawns. Create scripting that lets the system ensure the mobs aren't overspawning, but ensure it isn't predictable for a given window range.

Or yes, even a rotation could work with rules.

A rotation where you must prove you can defeat a given raid target within 2 hours once it spawns. This could be coupled with a no poop-socking rule. Trak spawns, you have two hours to move your entire raid force there, buff, and kill him.

A single wipe pushes the next guild on the rotation to the top of the list.

I understand how vehemently against these kinds of ideas are for some of the raiders out there, but it would in fact greatly reduce the need for GM intervention.

You know when it's your turn or not, and you're still under a constraint. You can't sock, so can you get your force to the target and take it down in one kill in 2 hours?

Is that too long? Then make it an hour. Is that too long? Make it 30 minutes.

It then becomes what it should be, a fight against yourself. You remove the troubles associated with fighting other guilds, accusations of other guilds, and attempted hindrances from other guilds (IE: guilds breaking rules and GM interventions).

If you fail to take down the mob? Maybe you're forced to skip the next rotation as a continued penalty. This ensures that the guilds who are still the most focused will still get the most kills.

I've seen every raid-able guild on this server wipe on raid mobs, even recently. Yes, even TMO. Now plop down not being able to sock along with forcing a timer and things just might get even more interesting.

So then who keeps track of this? The system could. A system could track the spawn time of a raid mob, who's up on the list, who got the kill, if someone outside the guild did anything to said raid mob, etc. This could all be automated (I'm assuming we have professional quality coders on this server, that of which, no offense to the administration, but I do not know).

Now mind you these are ideas, but frankly I think I would feel like I accomplished more this way than by mindlessly logging 50 people off at Trak and being the first guild to mass log everybody in to zerg rush it before the other guild does.

I've seen more death and time taken just getting to Trak for example, or for ports to a given zone to hit up a contested mob than I have probably during the fight itself. That's actually part of the difficulty of Everquest: being forced to travel, and sometimes quickly.

Logging out at the feet of a given spawn is, well, it's dumb. We have rules saying you can't just bind at the efreeti lord so you can gate there and claim the mob (someone else could move in while you're gone and legally claim the spot), and yet we have the very same tactics utilized on raid targets that we full well understand are ridiculous when used on smaller target lesser named.

For me on a personal level, one of my biggest gripes is the poop socking. In EQ, I raided a lot. I was in fact also a member of Fires of Heaven for a short while (those guys are nuts and I decided their raid requirements in terms of time commitment were just too much for me in the long-run), and through all of my raid experiences on live up through Velious, no guild I'd ever raided with ever "poop socked".

A mob spawned, and we moved our force there to kill it. Hell, that was probably harder than actually fighting the mob. Getting 30+ individuals to a given spot with good time, getting buffed, getting ready to engage--is a pain in the ass sometimes.

Already being there, ready, buffed, with just the right classes... Well it kinda trivializes the raiding in EQ. I'm sorry but I must completely disagree with the "hardcore" raiders here when they speak of the current system putting them and theirs as "the best", because poop-socking is too dumb to accept.

Just some thought dropping.

[Morgander]

Here's another idea: Can you beat your best record?

What if we took the above idea, but your guild happens to kill Trak in 12 minutes (say this is the server-best)? Maybe they get double loot once per month from the GM's as a bonus.

The incentive is, shit, you get 2x the Trak loot on one kill that month. It's incentive to not FIGHT with anybody other than yourselves.

Which is where true competition lies. Olympians aren't better than everyone else because they look to everyone else then train. They're better because they look to themselves then train.

You find your time, then you beat it. You find out your weaknesses, then you make them strengths. You fight against the clock, your own clock.

That's what makes a champion. Fighting the competition for the sake of thinking you're the best is meaningless. You're the best when you're the best with yourself.

Becoming a better person is a daily struggle, and worth every second in every way.

[Morgander]

Why only have TMO stay as TMO, they have enough characters and alts to make several guilds and fill up rotation slots.

FE could probably do two guilds.

BDA, probably 3.

Rotations without some form of elitism will not ever work here. Staff will not enforce a server rotation and there are enough players who don't want it that they can easily stop one from ever taking off.

I'm not defending the idea, nor am I against it, but I have to point this out:

Say this came to fruition. You have a forced rotation. You have TMO splitting up into 4 guilds, FE into 2, BDA into 3...

Ok, so now TMO is getting 4 parts of a pie of 9 pieces. FE getting 2 of 9, and BDA 3 of 9.

All hypothetically of course, much assuming naturally.

But what's the big problem with that?

You have no superficial FTE rules being enforced. No GM intervention wondering who got the kill. No poop-socking required. Players can just log in and play the game for as long as they want on whichever characters they want, and just go to any given raid target when its their turn when it spawns.

Tell me the negatives, besides potentially getting less loot for a single guild.

Hell, some guilds might get MORE loot. TMO might even get more loot on a forced rotation system. I also added some ideas to the possibility of a rotation with some interesting rulesets. Even additional timer based rewards for guilds who are especially efficient. Please read that post.

Honestly, I see only positives with this. The only downside I really see (not saying there aren't some I do not see off of the top of my head right now) is that those who want to feel superior to everyone else because they "WON", can't feel that way anymore.

Boo hoo?

[Arteker]

Not true, the server population IS up right now. There were times though during the first year of kunark when the population was absolutely dreadful. I would say there was a 3-6 month period where the server pop going over 500 people was good.


Either way, the raiding scene is stagnant and there are some simple fixes that would help it out as well as provide a more classic representation of Everquest. Why should we not discuss these issues? Even Nilbog himself said he would consider removing training from VP (as it is not classic) so obviously people want to discuss how we can get this done as well as other potential fixes to the raiding scene.
yes after massive ban fest there was a donwside of population , now u gonna blame tmo or the like 70 players from vd who got caugth?.

[Autotune]

I'm not defending the idea, nor am I against it, but I have to point this out:

Say this came to fruition. You have a forced rotation. You have TMO splitting up into 4 guilds, FE into 2, BDA into 3...

Ok, so now TMO is getting 4 parts of a pie of 9 pieces. FE getting 2 of 9, and BDA 3 of 9.

All hypothetically of course, much assuming naturally.

But what's the big problem with that?

You have no superficial FTE rules being enforced. No GM intervention wondering who got the kill. No poop-socking required. Players can just log in and play the game for as long as they want on whichever characters they want, and just go to any given raid target when its their turn when it spawns.

Tell me the negatives, besides potentially getting less loot for a single guild.

Hell, some guilds might get MORE loot. TMO might even get more loot on a forced rotation system. I also added some ideas to the possibility of a rotation with some interesting rulesets. Even additional timer based rewards for guilds who are especially efficient. Please read that post.

Honestly, I see only positives with this. The only downside I really see (not saying there aren't some I do not see off of the top of my head right now) is that those who want to feel superior to everyone else because they "WON", can't feel that way anymore.

Boo hoo?

The problem with this, is that now you have legit guilds who have to wait months for their turn to come up on the rotation.

TMO would take a months worth, or more, then have to wait months for their slot/s to roll back around, same for every other guild.

Now TMO goes from raiding every week to raiding a few months a year.

[Kika Maslyaka]

in first 5 years of EQ before first true instancing, no one ever solved the raid problem GLOBALLY (the fact that your little server had rotations, doesn't mean that every server did).
Pre-PoP era EQ simply has too few raid targets to satisfy everyone (and even post that we had to fight for every decent drop with like 5-10 other guilds).
Specially on a Emu server that collected hardcore raiders from all over EQ.

Add more raid targets or stop whining.

[W8Gamer]

I personally think what W8gamer posted was spot on and that it just completely went over Morganders head.

I think you're right. Therefore, I won't respond. As I said in the post, if you can't see it, then there is no getting through to you.

The only thing worth adding is how TMO went from not being able to break fear and wiping to Draco despite using Ivandyrs Hoops to the top guild. They merged with the former #2 raiding guild (Fusion/Dark Ascension etc) and began to challenge the #1 guild (Transatlantic Rampage/Inglourious Basterds etc) on Trakanon so that they could get keys to VP before it opened since it was delayed about 8 months on this server. More than half a year of mostly equal competition, both guilds were sitting on a 1 week raid suspension handed down by former GM Amelinda.

In the middle of that suspension, without notifying anybody from any other guilds, Amelinda secretly lifted TMO's raid suspension and this enraged the other guild at the time (renamed Inglourious Basterds again by this point) to stop playing on the server.

It was later revealed that a member of TMO (quickfingers aka tiggle) was Amelinda's girlfriend, and it was also revealed that Amelinda had taken bribes from members of the community that were selling things for USD.

In threads such as this TMO will typically try to stand behind their reason of "we had to play by these rules to achieve what we did, and so should you" but will conveniently leave out details such as how they came into being the undisputed #1 guild on the server. Since then they've only grown stronger.

Disregarding all logic for why the current non-classic raid scene inside of VP should be made better and ignoring all arguments for it (because the scene currently favors them and only them).

Just thought that may be worth mentioning as to why the majority of players hate the current raid scene, think it unfair, and believe a change to a more-classic and PVE friendly end-game would be beneficial and the best route.

Ok, now if this is true (and I have no idea if it is. I wasn't around for all this stuff), then it sounds to me that you all's problem isn't with the rules, but the referees (or the one referee, Amelinda).

My argument still stands in that the rules apply to everyone equally. Just as TMO can train you in VP, you are free to train TMO. I don't understand how anyone sees that as unfair? I hear you saying that what happened in the past was unfair, and if that's how it went down, then I don't disagree. However, what does what happened then have to do with the rule of training now? Did FE beat TMO out on a VP dragon or not? If they did, then that is proof alone that the system does not solely favor TMO. That TMO can in fact be beat at their own game.

So, what's the problem then? The problem isn't the rules. Just read through every thread about this and the problem is easy to identify. Allow me to point it out to you as I've read it over and over and over. Majority of people don't want to camp out at targets. Majority of people don't want to devote their EQ time to getting to a raid target first. A lot of people find that aspect not fun and not enjoyable. Well I have some unfortunate news, not everyone feels that way. Some folks enjoy camping out a target to make sure they get the first kill. There also those that maybe don't find it enjoyable but are so dedicated to getting that kill will do it anyway. That's what it takes. It takes that level of dedication and desire. I just don't see this magical rule change that is going to stop the guild with the most dedication and desire to achieve their goals.

They will find a way because that's what they do. They'll split raid forces, poop-sock, and whatever else is needed to get that kill. And so long as everyone else isn't prepared to go the lengths TMO is, you'll always be behind. Either way it goes, you are going to have to play the game as good if not better than TMO. Otherwise, TMO will stay on top, or whoever the top guild is for that matter. And that's exactly how it was on live. The guild with the most dedication stayed on top. So, the problem isn't the rules. The rules apply to TMO just like everyone else (and if they don't, a rule change isn't going to fix it because the problem is with the refs). So, the problem is lack of desire/dedication by the competition.

Now, que the people to enter the thread and talk about in order to be that dedicated to a 13 year old elf simulator, you have to be a fat, basement dwelling, slob with no life and no achievements lol. Love those posts as they very rarely apply to those in the raid scene.

[Ravager]

I think the closest thing you'll get to a rotation on here, is TMO not mobilizing for targets. In the past, TMO has given up raid targets for the server to go after. However, the only way I would think they would do this is if the "second raiding guild" didn't go after those targets. Would obvious exclude VP raid targets and probably trakanon.

Only thing is, the last few times they did this, the server complained that it wasn't enough and that it was some sinister plot (seriously).

The closest thing you'll get to a rotation here is to join TMO and stand in line for your loot.

I do remember a time, when TMO was raid suspended and the rest of the server rotated all of the mobs for a couple of weeks, with open invite VP raids. I did not hear anyone complaining that they weren't getting enough then.

[Lu|z Sect]

Good reasons to consider rolling on teams PVP in this thread.

[mtb tripper]

come to red where pvp is a one guild choice

[Morgander]

The problem with this, is that now you have legit guilds who have to wait months for their turn to come up on the rotation.

TMO would take a months worth, or more, then have to wait months for their slot/s to roll back around, same for every other guild.

Now TMO goes from raiding every week to raiding a few months a year.

Well we have:

Raid Mob Respawn Average
-------- ------- -------
Lord Nagafen 5-9 days 7 days
Lady Vox 5-9 days 7 days
Cazic Thule 5-9 days 7 days
Dracoliche 2 days 12 hours - 3 days 12 hours 3 days
Innoruuk 5-9 days 7 days
Maestro of Rancor 2-4 days 3 days
Talendor 5-9 days 7 days
Gorenaire 5-9 days 7 days
Severilous 5-9 days 7 days
Faydedar 6-8 days 7 days
Venril Sathir 5-9 days 7 days
Trakenon 2 days 6 hours - 3 days 18 hours 3 days
|Overking Bathezid | 2 hours
|Prince Selrach Di'zok| 2 hours
|Queen Velazul Di-zok | 2 hours
Druushk
Hoshkar
Nexona
Phara Dar
Silverwing
Xygoz
Plane of Sky repops
Plane of Fear repops
Plane of Hate repops

This gives us Lord Nagefen, Lady Vox, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Talendor,
Gorenaire, Severilous, Faydedar, and Venril Sathir spawning once per week
(that's 9 raid mobs), and Dracoliche, Maestro of Rancor, and Trakenon
spawning 2 times per week ((rounded down) that's 3 raid mobs).

That's 15 raid targets per week, excluding the chardok royals, the planer respawns, and all of the Veeshan's Peak dragons.

Even if there were 6 raid guilds that could kill all of these mobs without wiping, that would leave over 2 raid targets per week per guild, and that isn't how it would happen, because we still have the planer raid repops, the Chardok royals, epic fights not consisting of the aforementioned mobs, and the Veeshan Peak dragons.

Just assuming that the Veeshan's Peak dragons spawn once per week, that would leave us with 21 raid targets available per week. Even with 10 guilds who could kill all of these mobs, thus even be on a "rotation", you've still got 2 targets per guild, per week, and we're STILL even not considering the epic targets, Chardok royals, or planer respawns.

Now you see, from my perspective, all this is telling me is that many (maybe not all, but many) of the bias, self-titled "best" hardcore raiders who are against any idea of things like rotations, have a simple agenda: They want more than 2 raid targets a week. 'Or', they want all or most of them.

Now EVEN if we took some of my ideas into play. Say had a rotation but had certain raid targets timed and calculated by an automated system so the GM's didn't have to scrutinize it in detail else you lose your spot on the rotation for that mob for your next rotation, I bet you anything you would still only see about 2-3 guilds who would even make it on the rotation for most of these mobs, and I bet you that not even TMO would stay on the rotation for every single mob, every single time.

Go back to my prior idea post and give the fastest, most proficient guilds incentives (such as 2x the loot on a given raid mob for beating a super hard time), and you have a lot of incentive (I feel anyway) to actually desire a system that shares instead of monopolizes.

The difference here is mostly that the biggest and best raid guilds would still come out with the most reward, but those guilds who currently have about zero chance at even an opportunity with a given raid target, would now at least be able to compete a little bit.

Plus, I personally feel that raiding this way would just be less stressful from a time constraint point of view (from the lack of poop-socking), and would be more fun from a competitive point of view (because the competition is doing it as quickly as possible without even a single wipe).


And just for fun:
This page claims VP spawn timers set the named between 24 hours at one point, to 80 hours 53 minutes in an updated version of the zone.

http://www.tessmage.com/AllaClone/zone.php?name=veeshan&mode=spawngroups

[Morgander]

There also those that maybe don't find it enjoyable but are so dedicated to getting that kill will do it anyway. That's what it takes. It takes that level of dedication and desire. I just don't see this magical rule change that is going to stop the guild with the most dedication and desire to achieve their goals.

They will find a way because that's what they do. They'll split raid forces, poop-sock, and whatever else is needed to get that kill. And so long as everyone else isn't prepared to go the lengths TMO is, you'll always be behind. Either way it goes, you are going to have to play the game as good if not better than TMO. Otherwise, TMO will stay on top, or whoever the top guild is for that matter. And that's exactly how it was on live. The guild with the most dedication stayed on top. So, the problem isn't the rules. The rules apply to TMO just like everyone else (and if they don't, a rule change isn't going to fix it because the problem is with the refs). So, the problem is lack of desire/dedication by the competition.

I believe you've actually detailed the problem. The problem is that there are players who will, as you put it, word for word: "and whatever else is needed to get that kill."

You would have some people doing this if there weren't any rules at all for anything on this server. That doesn't make it right, nor the best thing for the community or the server.

If there was no rule on training, then training and killing someone just so YOU can get dibs on the named doesn't make it right.

Honestly if you can't see that or agree with it, then I have nothing at all else to say to you.

"I do right, because there needs be no reason. I do wrong, because I want."

The basis for definition in contrasting a child and an adult is that maturity lies in the adult. Maturity is in knowing when to be selfless even at your own expense. Immaturity is in acting on impulse when it benefits you, regardless of another's expense.

This is truly not a hard concept. Look at the real world. People will break the rules just to "win" even in competitions as serious as the world Olympics. People will use steroids to win time and again, because they've followed your credence. Yet everyone the world over knows that doing so is against the rules in universally every single applicable situation.

In fact, what I've outlined above in red seems to me to be a picture perfect sentiment to uphold what I'm stating here. To compare analogies: "So long as Olympians are not willing to take steroids (to go the lengths), you'll always be behind."

Doing whatever it takes to win is NOT justifiable by anything but greed. You should'v learned that in grade school, or before.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Rotations tend to break in practice because it removes the impetus for smaller guilds to merge and ally. It inevitably leads to bloat. (Semi)random server resets are far more efficacious than any proposed rotation or similar scheme. It simultaneously enables lesser guilds to fairly compete on a more even playing field, and it still allows power guilds to fairly compete on a playing field where their advantages are still useful, but not overwhelming to the lessers.

Doing whatever it takes to win is NOT justifiable by anything but greed.

As Loraen recently said, in matters like this the issue is with the rules and their implementation and not the players. Playing within the rules to your utmost is never unjustifiable. Cold and unsocial perhaps, but no moral or ethical culpability lies on those who stay within the bounds of the established order. The endgame environment stems mostly from the rules as they are.

[W8Gamer]

I believe you've actually detailed the problem. The problem is that there are players who will, as you put it, word for word: "and whatever else is needed to get that kill."

You would have some people doing this if there weren't any rules at all for anything on this server. That doesn't make it right, nor the best thing for the community or the server.

If there was no rule on training, then training and killing someone just so YOU can get dibs on the named doesn't make it right.

Honestly if you can't see that or agree with it, then I have nothing at all else to say to you.

"I do right, because there needs be no reason. I do wrong, because I want."

The basis for definition in contrasting a child and an adult is that maturity lies in the adult. Maturity is in knowing when to be selfless even at your own expense. Immaturity is in acting on impulse when it benefits you, regardless of another's expense.

This is truly not a hard concept. Look at the real world. People will break the rules just to "win" even in competitions as serious as the world Olympics. People will use steroids to win time and again, because they've followed your credence. Yet everyone the world over knows that doing so is against the rules in universally every single applicable situation.

In fact, what I've outlined above in red seems to me to be a picture perfect sentiment to uphold what I'm stating here. To compare analogies: "So long as Olympians are not willing to take steroids (to go the lengths), you'll always be behind."

Doing whatever it takes to win is NOT justifiable by anything but greed. You should'v learned that in grade school, or before.

The problem with the view here is you're taking "doing whatever it takes to win" and associating it with negative and immoral actions when that isn't always the case. There are rules in place to keep the playing field fair. If players operate within those rules, what makes it unjustifiable, immoral, or greedy?

Would you call the Olympian that works out for an hour more than the rest of the competition every day greedy or immoral? Of course not. You would commend him for his dedication and hard work in order to win the competition. He went the extra mile. He did what all those other Olympians weren't willing to do by sticking it out in the gym for that extra hour each day despite how tired he was.

One could argue that's what TMO or any top guild is doing. They are going that extra mile to achieve their goal. To beat their competition. They are willing to sit and track that spawn those 8 hours that none of the other guilds are. They are willing to sacrifice hours of play to have their character parked in the most strategical location to kill their target. What's immoral or greedy about that? They aren't violating any rules just like that Olympian who isn't violating any rules by working out an extra hour every day.

Not everyone gets the gold medal at the Olympics and I've never heard anyone call the winner a greedy, immoral person for all the sacrifices he makes in order to deprive the competition of that gold medal. You could argue it's the same for raid loot. Not everyone gets to have raid loot. So, why now all of sudden are those who make sacrifices to get the kill considered greedy and immoral? As long as they are operating within the rules, where is the injustice?

[fuark]

P99 raiding is not like classic Tarew Marr.

That being said, why the fuck do any of you WANT to compete with TMO?

If EQ is your one and only hobby, sure, join up and camp your toons at spawn points, track targets for DKP, have people sending messages to your phone to log in and kill a trivial mob at inconvenient times.

I am not exactly sure how a normal person with a job, hobbies, and friends can log in with even 20% raid attendance on a video game.

Work 8 am - 5 pm. Lift from 7 pm - 9 pm. Go out with friends from 9 pm - 11 pm. Before 7 pm eat. Watch a TV show in there somewhere and read P99 forum for drama laughs. After 11 pm relax, eat again, play 45 minutes or so of P99 while talking to significant other who is away right now.

How the hell do you people have time to respond to batphones?

I just don't understand why anyone cares. Get 60, get BIS gear that doesn't come from Trak, VP, or VS. If you're not a sham/rog/mnk/clr don't bother with your epic.

Boom, a hell of a lot more fun Everquest that doesn't come with all the 30 year old neckbeards that the high end entails.

To sum it up - raiding on this server is moronic. Use the server for what it's good for - reliving the Everquest experience with friends up to level 60. Some of you people doing God's work on here could put your time to much better use.

[Godefroi]

The p99 raid scene is just a place for fat nerds to feel like they are actually doing something significant with their lives for 5 minutes at a time.

Well...

Yes and no.

You have also retards in wheelchairs like Tortue and Nizzarr

[Quientus]

I may be playing "The Devils Advocate" here ...(?)

But (!), seems to me that TMO really isn't doing anything than what other Top guilds on practically every (live) server, didn't do ...

As pointed out it requires dedication and willingness (and opportunity to be able to commit) time if you want to "Stay on Top" ...

I know alot (of those not sitting on or near "the top") keep saying it isn't about being "uber" but rather they want things to be fair ...

But if you are not playing and dedicating time to become "Upper Echelon", then what is the problem ??? If you are "only" playing for "fun", then the release of Velious will remedy alot ...

Another solution would or could be a "Coalition" of guilds working together and give TMO a "Run for their Money"; On E'Ci there was a Coalition of 4 guilds that was known as M illion M an M arch - MMM) ...

Also therein lies my own current problem; I recently created a toon here, because even though I stopped playing EQ in 2007 (after TBS and before SoF), I still miss EQ, and no other MMO has EVER appealed to me like EQ did and does ...

However, I know myself well enough to realize that I will not be able to play "Just casual" ..., I was a "hardcore" raider, when I was active, and even though I worked 50+ hours a week, if I play, I play to win, which is why I'm still hesitant to start playing again ..., because I don't "just want to play for "fun" ", but I'm not sure I can commit the time required ...

Long story short; Maybe the 2nd tier guilds on P1999 should start to cooperate more instead of "whining", because as someone else pointed out earlier, I doubt TMO can be everywhere all the Time ...

Just a few thoughts,

[Morgander]

Rotations tend to break in practice because it removes the impetus for smaller guilds to merge and ally. It inevitably leads to bloat. (Semi)random server resets are far more efficacious than any proposed rotation or similar scheme. It simultaneously enables lesser guilds to fairly compete on a more even playing field, and it still allows power guilds to fairly compete on a playing field where their advantages are still useful, but not overwhelming to the lessers.



As Loraen recently said, in matters like this the issue is with the rules and their implementation and not the players. Playing within the rules to your utmost is never unjustifiable. Cold and unsocial perhaps, but no moral or ethical culpability lies on those who stay within the bounds of the established order. The endgame environment stems mostly from the rules as they are.

I must, for the sake of the idea, protest your second statement.

Playing within the rules is not 'never' unjustifiable. Not all rules are justifiable. Some rules are created with two potential intents that could lead to unjustifiability: One: rules created in ignorance or incompetence. Two: rules created for nefarious or selfish purpose.

"Law", or "Rule" does not equate to moral or ethical by their very definition. Not by a long shot.

But I digressed. The nature of this thread is not to corner TMO or any other guild, to accuse them or unethical practices nor to protest any one factor of the server. The purpose of this thread is for discussions to help make raiding more fun.

I've said it before that one of my personal most disfavorite parts of raiding here is the poop socking. Having to NOT play the game so that I can wait to play the game for a few minutes is not fun. It's not fun for anyone. You'll find it very hard to convince me that anybody actually likes not playing a game in order to play it.

I'm looking to spark discussion to make change. There are a myriad of ways to go about making raiding here more fun. I very much like the examples I gave in a prior post regarding sharing content and having races to beat times for double loot potential.

Another idea I like is having the timers on raid mobs change each week. Maybe CT respawns in 7 days +- 2 this week, then 5 +-2 next week, then 10 +-2 the following week, then 2 +-1 the next week.

Or a rule simply stating no poop socking.

None of these ideas has to be THE idea, but the more ideas we put on the table, the better our potential opportunity to make raiding here more fun for everyone.

Keep in mind here that I'm not just advocating this entire thread for myself. I'm not the only mind here I've ever discussed about this. Just because a few hundred people aren't all posting on these forums doesn't mean many of them really enjoy the current raid structure.

When I talk about sharing mind you, that's just the ethical part of me that thinks sharing is just better than not sharing. For any reason.

That's just me saying what I think is right, and it's a side note to the ideas behind changes in raiding here.

[Morgander]

I may be playing "The Devils Advocate" here ...(?)

But (!), seems to me that TMO really isn't doing anything than what other Top guilds on practically every (live) server, didn't do ...

I played in the top raid guild on three different servers on live, and none of those servers had a raid system anything like we have on p1999. I think most of the individuals making these claims do not in all honesty, have enough experience over hardcore raiding on multiple servers on live to actually know any facts besides what they think is probably most accurate.

Live mind you, was NOTHING like p1999 for a whole lot of reasons. One major reason isn't even p1999's fault--the reason that nobody knew what they were doing those first few years.

As pointed out it requires dedication and willingness (and opportunity to be able to commit) time if you want to "Stay on Top" ...

Not arguing with you here.

I know alot (of those not sitting on or near "the top") keep saying it isn't about being "uber" but rather they want things to be fair ...

But if you are not playing and dedicating time to become "Upper Echelon", then what is the problem ??? If you are "only" playing for "fun", then the release of Velious will remedy alot ...

That's a bold statement to make. If you want to make assumptions, fine, but you're saying, "I KNOW a lot...".

For me personally, while I won't detail all my characters, I'll say I have multiple 60's with multiple epics that have been in more than one of the top raid guilds on this server at one time or another on various characters, and have at multiple points, controlled one of the top equipped characters of my class during various stages of the server's progression. To say that I'm unhappy with raiding right now because I'm not "working" hard enough, or because I want more "phat lewts", I just can't say is an adequate or appropriate analogy.

Another solution would or could be a "Coalition" of guilds working together and give TMO a "Run for their Money"; On E'Ci there was a Coalition of 4 guilds that was known as M illion M an M arch - MMM) ...

Granted, but I'm not so much worried about if TMO gets more loot or if any other guild gets more loot. My issue again is mostly that raiding isn't very much fun these days. I had more fun back in the earlier days when we were clearing hate and fear with level 50's and every single raid wasn't just a poop-sock where we sat on vent and didn't play, or played some alt we didn't really feel like playing over a main that we had camped.

Also therein lies my own current problem; I recently created a toon here, because even though I stopped playing EQ in 2007 (after TBS and before SoF), I still miss EQ, and no other MMO has EVER appealed to me like EQ did and does ...

However, I know myself well enough to realize that I will not be able to play "Just casual" ..., I was a "hardcore" raider, when I was active, and even though I worked 50+ hours a week, if I play, I play to win, which is why I'm still hesitant to start playing again ..., because I don't "just want to play for "fun" ", but I'm not sure I can commit the time required ...

I hate to say it because I mean no ill will toward any guild, but again being that TMO has the resources, if you get into TMO and just sock, you'll get fully geared in no time. They'll carry you and you almost don't need to do anything for it but be willing to sock.

Long story short; Maybe the 2nd tier guilds on P1999 should start to cooperate more instead of "whining", because as someone else pointed out earlier, I doubt TMO can be everywhere all the Time ...

I've not even stated if I still have a character in TMO yet or not. I will flat out state that I have at least once had a character (I have many high-level characters) in TMO. This thread isn't about whining about TMO. These discussions bashing TMO are more or less completely off-topic.

Plus, on another note, TMO can be everywhere at the same time. They can (and so can a few other guilds), because of socking. Because on average, you often never have more than 2-3 mobs in window, and TMO sports enough members with enough 60 alts where they can typically have 30+ characters logged out within FEET of the spawn spot of a given raid mob.

Just a few thoughts,

[Frieza_Prexus]

I must, for the sake of the idea, protest your second statement.

Playing within the rules is not 'never' unjustifiable. Not all rules are justifiable. Some rules are created with two potential intents that could lead to unjustifiability: One: rules created in ignorance or incompetence. Two: rules created for nefarious or selfish purpose.

Perhaps, but for the present purposes it suffices to say that playing within the confines of the server's rules should not manufacture true culpability of a real sort - ethical or moral. Unless you're suggesting that one of those two cases exists here (which is entirely possible), my point still stands that the main issue, by far, is the server's rules and how they are structured. Player conduct is a distant secondary concern.

I'm looking to spark discussion to make change. There are a myriad of ways to go about making raiding here more fun. I very much like the examples I gave in a prior post regarding sharing content and having races to beat times for double loot potential.

Any solution must ostensibly fit within the "classic" guidelines the server has established. Such solutions must either be perfectly classic or meant to address a non-classic problem so as to enable a "more classic" environment. Forced rotations and such have been categorically rejected by the developers as a potential solution. Increasing the variance won't help much, if at all. Socking will always exist to some extent or another, and the best you can hope to do is mitigate it to varying extents. For example, mobs no longer have a set "window closing" and this has drastically cut down on active socking, but it has not eliminated it.

If you're interested in exploring options, the most favored idea that has gained traction is (semi) random repops every other week or so. For the reasons I explained above, it evens the playing field without eliminating the advantages of hard work and preparation. The second most favored solution is to apply the normal CSR rules to VP or enable PVP in the zone (with the former option being the most heavily favored by far).

Most other solutions have been explored ad nauseum and very little original development has taken place in this area lately. If you're hoping to to impact the raid scene in a positive manner, the above solutions are the most pragmatic and popular options to support.

[Godefroi]

Honestly all those propositions are going to be failures.

1) the current state of the raiding scene is what it is. I'm not a fan of TMO but...they put efforts to get what they want. Sometimes FE get their share of it too, because they do work. of course the size of the guilds isn't classic, but that's a direct consequence of the time line that is anything but classic. That's the double edge of a free project.

2) Rotations happened on live, but they were agreements between guilds iirc (afaik). Rotation happened in VP and was broken by IB due to Amelinda being a cunt. Sad story, maybe if there hadn't been a corrupt GM things would have remained on rotation. Who knows, that's the way it happened. TMO showed more consistency and bigger numbers, they won VP over. When FE tried to enter VP we did good, but TMO had more numbers, TMO won over VP again. You can say they "put more work" , or were more "determined". It's not really the case. It's all about numbers, and about tracking relentlessly, batphoning quickly and recruiting fresh blood constantly (which when you have total control on the high end loot is not hard).

All in all, on P99 it's all about how many no lives do you have to throw in the mix. How many people are ready to sacrifice their evenings , morning, nights, tracking and poopsocking. It's dumb, but it's the way it is.

Somehow some players still show off their tracking records, when it truly is sad. But those people are rewarded the most on P99.

It's not gonna change, so I suggest you get over it and have fun what every other way you can, because otherwise the raiding scene will remain a big source of frustation (anyways, it's been 3 years of kunark god damn it!). Rogean is busy playing the jedi, Sirken smokes pot and answers a few petitions here and there. Nilbog has a good soul, but you guys gotta realize he's doing with a few persons, without getting paid, what Verant had a team of 40+ to do.

The release of Velious is also somehow touchy, due to the headache it will induce for the Staff in terms or CSR. And from the interactions they lately have with players, you can tell they really don't want to deal with that.

The only thing that was mentioned by the staff and that will change is pathing in VP as Sirken acknowledged it required patching to be decent, in order for the zone to become non trainable.

I personally believe this would be good, as having VP non trainable would allow other guilds to get in, remotivate them to compete for trakanon and spread the app/new player flow amongst other guilds. Of course TMO won't like this because it would end their hegemony, but why would they care? Oh yeah soz, that #7 alt still need that eye of xygoz ;)

I believe at this point raiding kunark will be so insignificant and TMO so geared, that they (might) agree to play nice in VP and actually gently compete. Who knows, maybe weed and adderal makes people gentle over time :D

[burkemi5]

The problem with the view here is you're taking "doing whatever it takes to win" and associating it with negative and immoral actions when that isn't always the case. There are rules in place to keep the playing field fair. If players operate within those rules, what makes it unjustifiable, immoral, or greedy?


I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

[Godefroi]

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

or being single, which is the case for atleast 50% of TMO.

[xarzzardorn]

If you're reading this, my guess is that the title of this thread had captured your attention.

Now I've played on P1999 for several years now, on multiple characters in multiple guilds. Each one has been a raiding guild. I've dabbled with guilds such as Dark Ascension and The Mystical Order, just to name a few, and every guild I've been apart of has been first and foremost, a raiding guild.

Through these experiences I've come to notice that the way you're forced to go about raiding on P1999, well, it just isn't very much fun.

It's not very much fun because there's such thing here as fair competition. Imagine if you would, a game of chess where black has the official starting pieces: 1 king, 1 queen, 2 rooks, 2 bishops, 2 knights, and 8 pawns.

Now imagine you're black, and you're playing the game against white, who's starting pieces are: 1 king, 7 queens, and 8 pawns.

Just doesn't sound like equality.

Sure, if you've two basketball teams on the court, one's bound to have superior players, better strategies, harder training regiments, etc., but they're both going to sport 5 players, and each side of the court's got the same measurements, and both teams still abide by all the same rules and undergo the same penalties.

What I'm getting at here is to reinforce the idea that this whole "competitive" aspect of P1999 raiding is an illusion. From my experience, there seems to be a clear outcry to continue to focus on this same-old competitive aspect of raiding from the more efficient raid guilds. And why not? This is of course directly in their best interests. Why share when you can take more than the other guy?

There seems to be a second group of raiders who feel so vehemently toward a given guild(s), that the mere idea of not having the opportunity to take something from these most hated groups, simply boils them up from the very soul outward.

And that's about it. You've got the group who wants nothing to change because they're already getting theirs, and you have the group who may or may not be getting much, but what they're getting keeps them in favor of this same competitive system because when they do get some, they relish in the idea of imaginary bragging rights against the group(s) they hate so avidly.

If you don't believe me you can just run a quick scan across the forums at the myriad of flames from guild to guild. You've got people from TMO blatantly bashing other guilds, calling them names, ridiculing them, and frankly, being very unsportsmanlike for a very competitive, sport-like endeavor. It's not TMO I'm talking about though, nor are they the focus nor major culprit of this topic. It's all the guilds. You've got guilds hating one another, telling lies about each others members, blowing up in public channels, across voice software, all over the forums... The list continues.

So what's the damned point? Well, the point is, why are we still accepting this archaic outlook on this server? How is it fun to log out next to a raid target, leave your guilds common voice-chat program open, awaiting the call, only to log on, play the game for a grand total of maybe 5-15 minutes, then move your character(s) to another target or targets, then rinse and repeat the process?

Whatever happened to actually logging in and playing the game? When did Everquest raiding mean you've got to have multiple max level characters just to stay logged in?

It's not just about who gets the most or who gets the least. It's a culmination of principles and what's most positive for the community.

I for one would implore the server administrators to take another look at the state of affairs on this server regarding raiding. We can do better than this. We can do better than forcing the staff to come up with a slew of seriously ridiculous, arbitrary rulesets to safeguard an illusionary form of competition between a select few guilds and a large minority of the playerbase.

Everquest wasn't like this. Not on any server I'd played on, nor the server in which I was a guide.

I for one hear more disdain, irritation, and sheer flagrant hatred come from the current system than I do positives on how things are running.

Do we want better? Do the players on this server deserve better? Can't we do better than this?

I think we can.


tldr shut up you moran

[Ravager]

The problem with the view here is you're taking "doing whatever it takes to win" and associating it with negative and immoral actions when that isn't always the case. There are rules in place to keep the playing field fair. If players operate within those rules, what makes it unjustifiable, immoral, or greedy?

Would you call the Olympian that works out for an hour more than the rest of the competition every day greedy or immoral? Of course not. You would commend him for his dedication and hard work in order to win the competition. He went the extra mile. He did what all those other Olympians weren't willing to do by sticking it out in the gym for that extra hour each day despite how tired he was.

One could argue that's what TMO or any top guild is doing. They are going that extra mile to achieve their goal. To beat their competition. They are willing to sit and track that spawn those 8 hours that none of the other guilds are. They are willing to sacrifice hours of play to have their character parked in the most strategical location to kill their target. What's immoral or greedy about that? They aren't violating any rules just like that Olympian who isn't violating any rules by working out an extra hour every day.

Not everyone gets the gold medal at the Olympics and I've never heard anyone call the winner a greedy, immoral person for all the sacrifices he makes in order to deprive the competition of that gold medal. You could argue it's the same for raid loot. Not everyone gets to have raid loot. So, why now all of sudden are those who make sacrifices to get the kill considered greedy and immoral? As long as they are operating within the rules, where is the injustice?

It's comical to me that you compare anyone here to an olympian.

[Autotune]

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

The 4am thing has always been on the server and every successful raiding guild has used it.

The other things, very few do those in TMO. I could count them on one hand, least back when I played with them.

Fact: You don't have to do any of these to get raid targets on p99.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

this is standard operating procedure, if you want to own a server. if you don't do this, you lose spawns.

Where is the controversy? Does TMO require everyone to wear pantyhose on a webcam while they raid? That would be kinda out of line.

[Ravager]

The 4am thing has always been on the server and every successful raiding guild has used it.

The other things, very few do those in TMO. I could count them on one hand, least back when I played with them.

Fact: You don't have to do any of these to get raid targets on p99.

Fact: You do if you're not in TMO. That's the point.

[Autotune]

Fact: You do if you're not in TMO. That's the point.

Why do you?

No one forces a guild to get targets at 4am.
No one forces you to log in from work.

Raid targets spawn at all times of the day, I am sure some will spawn when you're guild's "prime time" is.

[Tiddlywinks]

Perhaps, but for the present purposes it suffices to say that playing within the confines of the server's rules should not manufacture true culpability of a real sort - ethical or moral. Unless you're suggesting that one of those two cases exists here (which is entirely possible), my point still stands that the main issue, by far, is the server's rules and how they are structured. Player conduct is a distant secondary concern.



Any solution must ostensibly fit within the "classic" guidelines the server has established. Such solutions must either be perfectly classic or meant to address a non-classic problem so as to enable a "more classic" environment. Forced rotations and such have been categorically rejected by the developers as a potential solution. Increasing the variance won't help much, if at all. Socking will always exist to some extent or another, and the best you can hope to do is mitigate it to varying extents. For example, mobs no longer have a set "window closing" and this has drastically cut down on active socking, but it has not eliminated it.

If you're interested in exploring options, the most favored idea that has gained traction is (semi) random repops every other week or so. For the reasons I explained above, it evens the playing field without eliminating the advantages of hard work and preparation. The second most favored solution is to apply the normal CSR rules to VP or enable PVP in the zone (with the former option being the most heavily favored by far).

Most other solutions have been explored ad nauseum and very little original development has taken place in this area lately. If you're hoping to to impact the raid scene in a positive manner, the above solutions are the most pragmatic and popular options to support.

Therein lies the rub. Rather than having a server that functions like one would during classic EverQuest, GMs are instead creating and playing by a non-classic rulebook in, presumably, what they feel is the best attempt at giving the server a classic "feel" while not actually being classic.

Things like 4 day variances, the changes to Ivayndrs Hoops, our own take on a PnP policy, all of these things culminate in doing the exact opposite of what they were meant to do. They make the server LESS classic, not more.

That "feeling" is never going to be fully recaptured, so can we please stop making things non-classic in an attempt to artificially create it by purposefully implementing non-classic "fixes"?

I honestly would have thought that Nilbog would have hard-veto'd any attempt to do something like change Ivandyrs Hoop or adding variances since there is proof neither existed in their current state during live. It's very sad that he didn't.

[Tiddlywinks]

I'm not arguing against your point here, I just want to mention a few things.

To those who want raid gear:

Are you willing to have alarms set at 4AM to wake you (and possibly your spouse) up so you can go raid for 30 minutes, potentially making you a zombie the next day at work or pissing off your spouse? I can tell you, and I'm sure many will agree, that if my spouse woke up due to a video game alarm, there'd be heck to pay.

Are you willing to bring a laptop to work and constantly have EQ ready to be logged in at moments notice? Or maybe you use your lunch break to go to a coffee shop and use their wifi? I am sure many of us use our lunch break to socialize with co-workers or run short errands.

Or are you willing to have EQ open for days on end while you visually track a boss spawning? This one isn't so bad, but it still requires you to look at your computer every 2-7 minutes. Does your buddy call you up, wanting to go do something fun? Sorry, can't go until I find someone to replace me.

Now, does doing these things make TMO greedy or immoral? I don't think so necessarily. Are they playing within the rules? Yes. By using these "strategies", TMO has essentially created new raiding rules. If you want to get any raid targets, you need to be as good or better than they are at doing this. You need your guild to camp out at targets that are in window. You need people to wake up at 4AM, pissing off their spouse, to log in and kill it. You need someone sitting there watching the boss.

Like it or not, if you want raid gear on here, you have to do this. Nowhere in the rules does it say this, but this is how the raid scene operates under TMO's unofficial rules.

This is not TMO's fault, and it happened the same way before they were on top.

This is a by product of variance, and rules. Nothing more.

People are going to do everything they can within the rules to win.

[Ravager]

Why do you?

No one forces a guild to get targets at 4am.
No one forces you to log in from work.

Raid targets spawn at all times of the day, I am sure some will spawn when you're guild's "prime time" is.

I'm just saying, it's no coincidence that when any other guild tries to go toe to toe with TMO it turns into a poopsock.

VS, Trak, Fay, Sev, CT, Inny. Doesn't matter what time of day these spawn. If you're not doing the things you say don't have to be done it's highly unlikely you're going to get them. Especially with the extended window code.

It wouldn't be as big an issue if they weren't tied to epic weapons. I'd be for early epic revamps.

[Tiddlywinks]

I think you're right. Therefore, I won't respond. As I said in the post, if you can't see it, then there is no getting through to you.



Ok, now if this is true (and I have no idea if it is. I wasn't around for all this stuff), then it sounds to me that you all's problem isn't with the rules, but the referees (or the one referee, Amelinda).

My argument still stands in that the rules apply to everyone equally. Just as TMO can train you in VP, you are free to train TMO. I don't understand how anyone sees that as unfair? I hear you saying that what happened in the past was unfair, and if that's how it went down, then I don't disagree. However, what does what happened then have to do with the rule of training now? Did FE beat TMO out on a VP dragon or not? If they did, then that is proof alone that the system does not solely favor TMO. That TMO can in fact be beat at their own game.

So, what's the problem then? The problem isn't the rules. Just read through every thread about this and the problem is easy to identify. Allow me to point it out to you as I've read it over and over and over. Majority of people don't want to camp out at targets. Majority of people don't want to devote their EQ time to getting to a raid target first. A lot of people find that aspect not fun and not enjoyable. Well I have some unfortunate news, not everyone feels that way. Some folks enjoy camping out a target to make sure they get the first kill. There also those that maybe don't find it enjoyable but are so dedicated to getting that kill will do it anyway. That's what it takes. It takes that level of dedication and desire. I just don't see this magical rule change that is going to stop the guild with the most dedication and desire to achieve their goals.

They will find a way because that's what they do. They'll split raid forces, poop-sock, and whatever else is needed to get that kill. And so long as everyone else isn't prepared to go the lengths TMO is, you'll always be behind. Either way it goes, you are going to have to play the game as good if not better than TMO. Otherwise, TMO will stay on top, or whoever the top guild is for that matter. And that's exactly how it was on live. The guild with the most dedication stayed on top. So, the problem isn't the rules. The rules apply to TMO just like everyone else (and if they don't, a rule change isn't going to fix it because the problem is with the refs). So, the problem is lack of desire/dedication by the competition.

Now, que the people to enter the thread and talk about in order to be that dedicated to a 13 year old elf simulator, you have to be a fat, basement dwelling, slob with no life and no achievements lol. Love those posts as they very rarely apply to those in the raid scene.

I highlighted your conflicting statements.

Consider for a minute that variance is not classic, and neither is being allowed to train people intentionally to keep them away from zones/mobs.

[W8Gamer]

It's comical to me that you compare anyone here to an olympian.

Right?! Almost as comical as comparing the monopolization of raid targets to a real word economic monopoly of a natural resource. Or, the comparison of hoarding raid loot to that of someone hoarding an abundance of food when a person in the very same room will die of starvation.

Morgander referenced the Olympics and compared cheating in the Olympics to the immoral aspect of the current raiding system. I merely kept my comparison in frame to his. Of course I don't think a leet EQ raider is even remotely comparable to an Olympian and if that's all you got my from post, clearly this discussion is a bit over your head.

[Autotune]

I'm just saying, it's no coincidence that when any other guild tries to go toe to toe with TMO it turns into a poopsock.

VS, Trak, Fay, Sev, CT, Inny. Doesn't matter what time of day these spawn. If you're not doing the things you say don't have to be done it's highly unlikely you're going to get them. Especially with the extended window code.

It wouldn't be as big an issue if they weren't tied to epic weapons. I'd be for early epic revamps.

It's always turned into a poopsock when two guilds go toe to toe. That's not a product of what TMO is doing, that's a product of how EQ works.

Also, it's highly unlikely you're going to get targets if you don't try. Guilds could easily go for targets when they have time. Guild's keep looking at how many they can't get and not how many they can get.

[W8Gamer]

I highlighted your conflicting statements.

Consider for a minute that variance is not classic, and neither is being allowed to train people intentionally to keep them away from zones/mobs.

Right. Except the argument isn't always "that's not classic". The main argument is that the current rules in place cater to TMO. It's already been stated multiple times that the rule on training is not based on classic EQ. The rule was put in place for a reason that has NOTHING to do with classic EQ. So, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the classic argument for training in VP.

As far as variance goes, from what I understand variance was put in to place to try and prevent poop-socking. You take away variance and then what happens? Lots and lots of poop-socking which just brings about the next series of threads complaining that the current raid scene is terrible and needs to be fixed.

I don't know that you are understanding my argument. My argument is that there is nothing "unfair" about the current rules because the current rules apply to everyone. Everyone on the server can train in VP, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can park toons at raid targets, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can do everything TMO does. The problem is no one wants to. And so long as that stands true, TMO, or whoever the top guild at the time is going to have the upper hand. It's all about how far and how much you're willing to dedicate to the raid scene. You can change the rules tomorrow and for a few weeks, TMO might lose targets here and there. However, if they stay as dedicated and determined as they have been, they will eventually work out a method to maintain their control and we're right back at square one.

The first problem that needs to be addressed is this: Is the competition to TMO (or whoever the top guild is at the time) willing to go the lengths the top guild will go to get that kill? If the answer is no, then no rule will solve the problem. That's why live eventually went to isntances as that's the ONLY thing that's going to give everyone a chance at all the raid targets.

[Ravager]

Right?! Almost as comical as comparing the monopolization of raid targets to a real word economic monopoly of a natural resource. Or, the comparison of hoarding raid loot to that of someone hoarding an abundance of food when a person in the very same room will die of starvation.

Morgander referenced the Olympics and compared cheating in the Olympics to the immoral aspect of the current raiding system. I merely kept my comparison in frame to his. Of course I don't think a leet EQ raider is even remotely comparable to an Olympian and if that's all you got my from post, clearly this discussion is a bit over your head.

I apologize for attributing the analogy to you. I tend to skim and skip long-winded walls of text as almost every point made in these threads can and should be summed up in a few short sentences.

[Quientus]

I played in the top raid guild on three different servers on live, and none of those servers had a raid system anything like we have on p1999. I think most of the individuals making these claims do not in all honesty, have enough experience over hardcore raiding on multiple servers on live to actually know any facts besides what they think is probably most accurate. (...)

I don't think you need to have experienced "hardcore raiding on MULTIPLE" servers on live to actually know any facts as you put it ;-)

I will concede, as I don't play actively on this server that I may be wrong :-)


(...)
Live mind you, was NOTHING like p1999 for a whole lot of reasons. One major reason isn't even p1999's fault--the reason that nobody knew what they were doing those first few years. (...)

p1999 will NEVER be like live ... - one major reason why is that everything has already been done time and again, and people playing on p1999 from the lowest level to the highest know this ...


(...)
That's a bold statement to make. If you want to make assumptions, fine, but you're saying, "I KNOW a lot...". (...)

I agree that I should probably have worded it differently, and I must admit I didn't give the wording as such much thought (as English isn't my primary language), as it wasn't meant to say that I know (as in know personally) but rather know of those that have posted in the threads pertaining this "problem" rather :-)


(...)
For me personally, while I won't detail all my characters, I'll say I have multiple 60's with multiple epics that have been in more than one of the top raid guilds on this server at one time or another on various characters, and have at multiple points, controlled one of the top equipped characters of my class during various stages of the server's progression. To say that I'm unhappy with raiding right now because I'm not "working" hard enough, or because I want more "phat lewts", I just can't say is an adequate or appropriate analogy. (...)

I don't think anyone has anything even remotely close to what you are saying here ...

It seems to me, what you really want is more content ... - I.E vis-a-vis release of Velious (and perhaps beyond ?)


(...)
Granted, but I'm not so much worried about if TMO gets more loot or if any other guild gets more loot. My issue again is mostly that raiding isn't very much fun these days. I had more fun back in the earlier days when we were clearing hate and fear with level 50's and every single raid wasn't just a poop-sock where we sat on vent and didn't play, or played some alt we didn't really feel like playing over a main that we had camped. (...)

Raiding wasn't fun once the encounters you were targetting got "trivial" ... - however on live "farming" these targets where necessary in order to be able to be ready for the next expansion ... - it is not such here on p1999, instead the "top guild" favors these (trivial) targets in order to gear up their alts ?


(...)
I hate to say it because I mean no ill will toward any guild, but again being that TMO has the resources, if you get into TMO and just sock, you'll get fully geared in no time. They'll carry you and you almost don't need to do anything for it but be willing to sock. (...)

So you are saying that I could just join up now, get PL'ed and get phat lewts ??? Because that is what TMO does ?

Sounds tempting ... - however, as I stated earlier .... I don't play like that ...


(...)
I've not even stated if I still have a character in TMO yet or not. I will flat out state that I have at least once had a character (I have many high-level characters) in TMO. This thread isn't about whining about TMO. These discussions bashing TMO are more or less completely off-topic. (...)

I don't think I said you were whining .... - just that from the other posts, it "seems" that what people really want is more content, and for TMO to "play more nice" ...


(...)
Plus, on another note, TMO can be everywhere at the same time. They can (and so can a few other guilds), because of socking. Because on average, you often never have more than 2-3 mobs in window, and TMO sports enough members with enough 60 alts where they can typically have 30+ characters logged out within FEET of the spawn spot of a given raid mob. (...)

Seriously doubt, even with their alts logged that TMO will be able to cover all the raid mobs ... - Especially if a coalition of some sorts are working together ...

Or does this server not support FIF ?


Again Morgander ... I actually agree with you on several points :-)

[W8Gamer]

I apologize for attributing the analogy to you. I tend to skim and skip long-winded walls of text as almost every point made in these threads can and should be summed up in a few short sentences.

No problem. I completely understand. After while, I get tired of reading the same recycled argument or post and end up just skimming as well lol. So, no hard feelings. Forumquest on my friend.

[finalgrunt]

Seriously doubt, even with their alts logged that TMO will be able to cover all the raid mobs ...

There are other ways to questionnably claim a kill without a raiding force to kill it. Whether you want to use such unclassic techniques in an emulated game falls down to how one values their involvment in the current raid scene.

[Quientus]

There are other ways to questionnably claim a kill without a raiding force to kill it. Whether you want to use such unclassic techniques in an emulated game falls down to how one values their involvment in the current raid scene.

Please elaborate on this :-), as I don't understand what you mean ?

As I asked, doesn't p1999 not support (outside VP) FIF ?
- Or is training another raidforce also acceptable and "legal" outside VP ?

[Tecmos Deception]

It's comical to me that you compare anyone here to an olympian.

It's comical to me that people call both cats and dogs animals, seeing as they appear to be so different.

[webrunner5]

Right. Except the argument isn't always "that's not classic". The main argument is that the current rules in place cater to TMO. It's already been stated multiple times that the rule on training is not based on classic EQ. The rule was put in place for a reason that has NOTHING to do with classic EQ. So, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the classic argument for training in VP.

As far as variance goes, from what I understand variance was put in to place to try and prevent poop-socking. You take away variance and then what happens? Lots and lots of poop-socking which just brings about the next series of threads complaining that the current raid scene is terrible and needs to be fixed.

I don't know that you are understanding my argument. My argument is that there is nothing "unfair" about the current rules because the current rules apply to everyone. Everyone on the server can train in VP, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can park toons at raid targets, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can do everything TMO does. The problem is no one wants to. And so long as that stands true, TMO, or whoever the top guild at the time is going to have the upper hand. It's all about how far and how much you're willing to dedicate to the raid scene. You can change the rules tomorrow and for a few weeks, TMO might lose targets here and there. However, if they stay as dedicated and determined as they have been, they will eventually work out a method to maintain their control and we're right back at square one.

The first problem that needs to be addressed is this: Is the competition to TMO (or whoever the top guild is at the time) willing to go the lengths the top guild will go to get that kill? If the answer is no, then no rule will solve the problem. That's why live eventually went to isntances as that's the ONLY thing that's going to give everyone a chance at all the raid targets.

Very well stated. But a lot of people just don't seem to get it. "I want shit for free syndrome" prevails on this server.

[finalgrunt]

Please elaborate on this :-), as I don't understand what you mean ?

As I asked, doesn't p1999 not support (outside VP) FIF ?
- Or is training another raidforce also acceptable and "legal" outside VP ?

FTE snipes, kiting, GM lobbying, training with unguilded toons to name a few have all been extensively used in the past. You're being naive if you believe that players here follow the rules to the letter ;)

[Quientus]

FTE snipes, kiting, GM lobbying, training with unguilded toons to name a few have all been extensively used in the past. You're being naive if you believe that players here follow the rules to the letter ;)

Hah, people didn't follow the rules on live either ... - And I don't think people "follow the rules to the letter" on an EMU server ... ;)

[finalgrunt]

Hah, people didn't follow the rules on live either ... - And I don't think people "follow the rules to the letter" on an EMU server ... ;)

I wouldn't compare Live and p99 when it comes to cheating / abusing / exploiting and being over competitive (but that's in comparison to my server, which from what I gather was much more civilized than some others).

[Ravager]

It's comical to me that people call both cats and dogs animals, seeing as they appear to be so different.

I do not think it comical to call both the P99 raider and the Olympian human beings. The comedy is in saying what both do to win is the same.

[Raavak]

Actually on E'Ci Recon sorta "shared" the Top spot with Vane ... Recon was US based and Vane was Asian (player for player, Vane blew Recon away, but Recon had alot more members)Those two guilds "shared" the top spot in 2 shifts a day. They never had to really compete for anything. They didn't have to race for mob pops. It was pretty close to a complete monopoly.

More people have experienced more and gotten more on P99 than Classic. I don't understand why people complain... except greed. They want more. Its okay to never be satisfied, it keeps you coming back. But for the love of God stop saying its worse than Live.

[Quientus]

Those two guilds "shared" the top spot in 2 shifts a day. They never had to really compete for anything. They didn't have to race for mob pops. It was pretty close to a complete monopoly.

More people have experienced more and gotten more on P99 than Classic. I don't understand why people complain... except greed. They want more. Its okay to never be satisfied, it keeps you coming back. But for the love of God stop saying its worse than Live.

Did you have a character "Rakpak" (or something along those lines) ?

And you are correct, they didn't "race for mobs" perce, however they were targetting almost the same mobs during some time ...

One of the problems and perhaps why some people feel about this the way they do, is perhaps because they are not so willing (or able) to commit the same amount of time to this game than they used to ?

Either way seems to me, its a "storm in a glass a water" really (not sure you use the same analogy in english ?).

[Raavak]

Did you have a character "Rakpak" (or something along those lines) ?no

http://eci.ofasoft.com/ if you are interested

[Quientus]

no

http://eci.ofasoft.com/ if you are interested

I've been on that site a while now :-)

[Tecmos Deception]

The comedy is in saying what both do to win is the same.

Nonsense. TMO does what they must in order to win. So do olympians. In that regard, they're exactly the same.

TMO can do :the same thing: as olypmians without undergoing intense physical and mental training for several hours per day over the course of years while also being mindful of diet, sleep patterns, etc etc etc. Welcome to analogy. Things can be the same in one or more ways without being exactly the same in every single regard.

The analogy was just fine.

[Tiddlywinks]

Right. Except the argument isn't always "that's not classic". The main argument is that the current rules in place cater to TMO. It's already been stated multiple times that the rule on training is not based on classic EQ. The rule was put in place for a reason that has NOTHING to do with classic EQ. So, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the classic argument for training in VP.

As far as variance goes, from what I understand variance was put in to place to try and prevent poop-socking. You take away variance and then what happens? Lots and lots of poop-socking which just brings about the next series of threads complaining that the current raid scene is terrible and needs to be fixed.

I don't know that you are understanding my argument. My argument is that there is nothing "unfair" about the current rules because the current rules apply to everyone. Everyone on the server can train in VP, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can park toons at raid targets, not just TMO. Everyone on the server can do everything TMO does. The problem is no one wants to. And so long as that stands true, TMO, or whoever the top guild at the time is going to have the upper hand. It's all about how far and how much you're willing to dedicate to the raid scene. You can change the rules tomorrow and for a few weeks, TMO might lose targets here and there. However, if they stay as dedicated and determined as they have been, they will eventually work out a method to maintain their control and we're right back at square one.

The first problem that needs to be addressed is this: Is the competition to TMO (or whoever the top guild is at the time) willing to go the lengths the top guild will go to get that kill? If the answer is no, then no rule will solve the problem. That's why live eventually went to isntances as that's the ONLY thing that's going to give everyone a chance at all the raid targets.

I understand your point, but I think we're really talking about 2 seperate things.

However, in regards to the fact that you feel they don't have an advantage over an up and coming guild I'm really confused. TMO got it's foot in VP early, only IB had the same advantage that they were given, and IB quit playing on the server, so guilds such as FE have almost no way of accessing the zone given the current rules.

It's much harder to pull of a successful assault than it is to mount a defense, and all TMO needs to do, given the rules of the server, is hold on and defend VP to maintain their advantage.

Personally I think the rules at the time had a direct affect on giving TMO this advantage, because they were literally GIVEN a rotation for their first cracks at VP. Nobody in FE or any other guild wanting to attempt to challenge TMO for mobs in the zone can say they were offered the same. The fact FE ever killed anything in there is insanely impressive.

Of course TMO has to play by the same rules as everyone else, I don't think that's the issue being discussed. The issue is that given the current non-classic rules, actual competition has been all but stifled, and almost nobody else wanting to raid or see the zone is having any fun.

Now we can argue all day about whether THAT is classic or not (it was imo) but the point is here it's only due to non-classic rules, whereas on live it actually came down to player/guild skill and knowledge. Barriers that simply don't exist for the majority of players on this server.

[finalgrunt]

More people have experienced more and gotten more on P99 than Classic. I don't understand why people complain... except greed. They want more. Its okay to never be satisfied, it keeps you coming back. But for the love of God stop saying its worse than Live.

With current state of affairs, it is worse (unless you're in TMO). On Live we had room for multiple raiding guilds, and each had its share of targets, with much less involvment than it is required for p99. We never had people camped at a target, or people tracking 24/7. We would always race against other guilds, and the arriving order (we didn't nitpick what was or wasn't a raid size as it was obvious for everybody) decided the trial order, and people would wait in line and hope for a wipe for their turn.

And I wouldn't say people want more, they just want some. If you decide to still call this greed, well, that's up to you.

Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

Now, according to this definition, who are those greedy again?

[Ravager]

Nonsense. TMO does what they must in order to win. So do olympians. In that regard, they're exactly the same.

TMO can do :the same thing: as olypmians without undergoing intense physical and mental training for several hours per day over the course of years while also being mindful of diet, sleep patterns, etc etc etc. Welcome to analogy. Things can be the same in one or more ways without being exactly the same in every single regard.

The analogy was just fine.

The bolded part is why the analogy doesn't work. The only thing similar to each other in this example is the amount of time put in. Olympians put in more time still and they're not sitting on their asses playing a video game doing it.

[Nirgon]

Rakpartha going hard trying to straighten you people out