Are you kidding me?

[Signal]

Sooo we're admitting that Rile spam can help you catch up if you're behind but refusing to admit it can push you into the lead once you hit the #1 spot? How does that logic work? Factioned racers can rile spam run for a LONG TIME before having to worry about hitting a DA idol.

Oh no someone put it more work than you and have one of a possible dozen advantages that these rules limit. All the current rules do is award classes with bind sight. Period. Are we going to call that unfair soon ? Idiots.

[Tewaz]

In the game of who has more free time on their hands. You will always lose. There is always someone without a job, in their mom's basement, and willing to stare at 17 year old elf quest for 20 hours a day.

[Mistle]

[QUOTE=Legday;2264934
What casual guilds really want from us is for us to stop trying so hard.[/QUOTE]

It has been clearly established over a very long period of time now that there is no limit to how hard the neckbeard nerds will go to make sure they get pixels and no one else does. If it came out to "trying very hard gets us more pixels" no one would really mind, but unfortunately it is "trying INSANELY hard gets us ALL the pixels" instead. Historically, when people showed they could not be trusted not to take something to far beyond stupid lengths just to somehow make themselves believe they were superior to everyone else, devs would step in. This is how Time and later expansions got instanced, this is why WoW was made. Because there is no limit beyond these people.

If rules can bring it from "all the pixels" to just "more of the pixels", then rules will work. If not, then the server staff needs to step in and enforce something else. Or they can just do nothing, and we'll see how many FTEers and trackers are left by midsummer. I'm honestly morbidly curious.

The funniest thing is, as a caster main I don't even care. The server timeline ends before anything appears in game that can significantly differentiate me from anyone else. There's no focus effects and no AA. The best geared clerics in AM and Awakened can probably get off one, perhaps two more cheals at the extreme high end if FT is working properly now, someone has enough of it, and the fight goes on long enough, than I can. They don't heal for more, they don't heal faster, they don't heal more efficiently or anything else. Being the best is so fucking pointless as a caster even in the pitiful context of P1999, lol. I could see the allure of it for melees with those weapon ratios always increasing and the gear not quite to the level of maxing every melee stat yet, but for me? It's mindboggling to me that there are still people who care *that much* after what, six years now, of "being better". By now, even the dullest Phil McKracken should have figured it out by now.

[Mistle]

So you are also prejudicial to anyone who doesn't naturally speak... I should just stop typing now because the rest of what I typed is so mindblowingly stupid I literally gave every single person who read it cancer

FTFY

[Maner]

this implies that Blacks and other non-whites can't learn english, which is pretty fucking racist

How exactly? Naturally speaking English would imply you were born in the United States. Where is any race included in that comment? However a majority of non English speaking native people would suggest people from another country. Perhaps you should refrain from attaching race to comments that don't include skin tone.

[Maner]

FTFY

Says the racist deflecting from their own prejudices. I'm sorry that not everyone who plays p99 is from the U.S. And some of them may not speak English as well as you would like. However making fun of them for it is pretty much you demonstrating your prejudices

[Mistle]

You sound like you are new to EQ. I'm not going to make this response too long because it's probably way over your head anyway.

Throw random stuff, hope something sticks! Time honored classic.

A/A has been winning the mobs since inception. The guild names are different but its still the same core people who learned from each other. From TR to IB to TMO to Forsaken to Rampage and everything in-between.

Yep, they have always had the most no life neckbeards to ensure pixel superiority, and once you have it, it snowballs because having it makes keeping it easier. I take it you were never perceptive enough to notice this? Glad I could educate you a bit then!

Last comment, unrelated but just wanted to point it out - calling people kiddo and neck-beard when you don't know who they are, makes you sound stupid. It's a comment someone who was 6 when EQ was released would say or just someone who never grew up.

And yet you quickly leap to Maner's defense despite having done exactly the same thing first! Don't worry, I won't tell anyone you're a hypocrite if you don't. ;)

I know you won't listen because you think you have an answer for everything but......I wouldn't mind the raid rules getting changed just so I could have a good laugh at your expense when it doesn't pan out the way you thought.

I don't really need to worry about it, it already has. Even under half sane conditions (not fully sane because still 16 hour variance, but not having to sit racers against 20+ other people), my guild routinely holds its own in FTEs. Sorry to burst another one of your bubbles!

Also if you were playing and beating this game when I was a kiddo, you should have no problem knowing raid mechanics and coming on a live stream.

Maybe? Who knows? Since you've never actually managed to establish relevance by showing how I am costing my guild mobs by a lack of mechanical knowledge, who cares? Without that, you're nothing more than the pigeon knocking over the chesspieces, shitting on the board, and strutting around like you won. We might as well settle it by a streetrace for all the relevance it has. Lol

[Mistle]

Says the racist deflecting from their own prejudices. I'm sorry that not everyone who plays p99 is from the U.S. And some of them may not speak English as well as you would like. However making fun of them for it is pretty much you demonstrating your prejudices

[Mistle]

My apologies for replying late, a non shitpost deserved proper quoting.


While long variance and making life sacrifices for pixels is ridiculous, history shows us that even if the casual guilds work something out... within that a certain guild will probably tow the line for a while before thinking "actually, we can get more for ourselves now that this has been set up".

So in essence, give the dog a bone and it won't share for longer than necessary.

Of course the guild in question should be able to take down the target, but what the server has no consideration for is patience, to let these guilds learn encounters in order to beat them.

That's where Moonlight Crusaders and Supremacy met their end. BDA decide that casual guilds who can't already do the content aren't worth keeping on the rotation...and therefore you get a stale raid scene with the same old same old guilds (with their ex-MC/Supremacy apps), same old raid leaders getting the same old pixels.

I think you mistake the motivations behind what happened. Now I don't want to open old wounds so CSG members, don't take this the wrong way, I love you guys and cheer when you get mobs. But back then, MC and other small guilds weren't the problem. The problem that the middle guilds had with the situation was the double dipping some guilds were engaging in. They had their spot in the rotation, but they were also using the small guilds to get a second whirl at the loot, by helping the small guilds and then taking the cream. There is nothing wrong with alliances and they should have been free to do this, to help small guilds like MC get raids in, but if they were going to help a raid, then that should count as their spot in the rotation. Instead they were pulling loot from both that spot and their OWN spot, while propping up a guild who shouldn't have been in the rotation for that mob yet.

If BDA had as evil motivations as you attribute to them, what they would have done instead of absorbing MC (partly) is ally with them instead, and any other small guild that couldn't do a mob on its own, and take some of the loot each time. They could have loaded the rotation that way. This is basically what other guilds were already starting to do.

The outcome was never considered the optimal solution. It was probably a mistake to suggest Gorenaire as the gatekeeper mob in the discussions to revamp the rotation as well, in hindsight, as that led to bad feelings from a lot of people including Sirken (but I was not a part of the discussion and maybe there were reasons to do so clearer in private). Personally, as someone who really dislikes all the stupid competitiveness in P99s raid scene as EQ has never been a game built for that sort of style, the whole thing was kind of a downer. But it is what it is, and we have moved on.

What would be good for the longevity of the raid scene on blue is letting the leveling guilds who want to raid.... raid.

You sadly can't trust the top end of the casual guilds not to dick on smaller "true" casual guilds, and that's why a rotation won't work.

And I think boiled down what most guilds below A/A really want is just a transformation to "more effort = more pixels" from the current "insane effort = all the pixels". BDA isn't pushing for a rotation, I am sure they would work with one if that is what the guilds of the server agreed to, but it's not the preferred solution I have seen suggested anywhere. I think BDA quite freely would admit that A/A deserve more loot than it does, probably significantly more, given current effort levels, and after all there are twice as many regular raiders in each of Aftermath and Awakened than BDA can muster so of course they will get more loot. What it does NOT like is the current required buyin to get any loot at all. Two hundred manhours, potentially, of effort for one mob is an unreasonable requirement to even get anything beyond a miracle sniff. So BDA limits itself to more reasonably contested mobs in VP and other non-ToV zones, waits patiently for the promised earthquakes to show up, and otherwise gets what it can during the hours it can muster worthwhile numbers.

[Signal]

Jesus this Mistle guy really keeps going when he is on the mat doesn't he. Someone save him from himself.

[Sweettouch]

Jesus this Mistle guy really keeps going when he is on the mat doesn't he. Someone save him from himself.

How dare someone use RnF for logic?

[Maner]

How dare someone use RnF for logic?

Logic? He literally says "EQ has never been a game built for that sort of style" when in fact vanilla EQ was very much designed towards a competitive high end. Every single server had competition that looked like one or two guilds dominating the high end content and the rest picking up what they could. There wasn't a rotation in TOV on the server I played on, until after the top 2 guilds were busy fighting for SSRA and VT in luclin.

Wow was designed to fill the gap between hardcore mmo players and the casuals. Even in vanilla WOW there were world bosses that certain guilds dominated over others. Complaining that this server, which was intended to be a vanilla EQ server, is too tough to raid on due to competition is just a stupid excuse and doesn't actually show any logic. Vanilla EQ was meant to be a competition. WOW is the epitome of what ruined mmos so using it to try and justify some type of rotation or further GM influence in the raid scene is just stupidity.

[Swish]

I think you mistake the motivations behind what happened. Now I don't want to open old wounds so CSG members, don't take this the wrong way, I love you guys and cheer when you get mobs. But back then, MC and other small guilds weren't the problem. The problem that the middle guilds had with the situation was the double dipping some guilds were engaging in.

Yes I see this, and it should have been dealt with... but to swing the executioner's axe was a bit extreme. The result was certainly interesting though, rather than share a Class R Trakanon or Sev with ~10 other guilds they started going in rotation to BDA, Taken, (Divinity or CSG), BDA, Taken, (Divinity or CSG)....and on and on. So by axing the rotation BDA and Taken had access to more pixels, and GM enforced no less.

You think that wouldn't happen again in some form? I think it would. People always want "a little more" no matter how much (or how little) they're getting.


If BDA had as evil motivations as you attribute to them, what they would have done instead of absorbing MC (partly) is ally with them instead, and any other small guild that couldn't do a mob on its own, and take some of the loot each time. They could have loaded the rotation that way. This is basically what other guilds were already starting to do.

BDA had enough mouths to feed. I definitely saw ~80 BDA for an R-FFA Trakanon one time and allying with smaller guilds just wouldn't have been viable without flat out saying "we're taking at least half your pixels".

The outcome was never considered the optimal solution. It was probably a mistake to suggest Gorenaire as the gatekeeper mob in the discussions to revamp the rotation as well, in hindsight, as that led to bad feelings from a lot of people including Sirken (but I was not a part of the discussion and maybe there were reasons to do so clearer in private).

That was the biggest bullshit of all. BDA trying to lock out small guilds rather than giving them some room to down some bosses, and now we see them complain about CSG who had to ally to compete on level numbers. It's a BDA creation whether they like it or not.


There is no solution to the current problem without more repops...but we can certainly learn from the greedy tactics guilds of the past implemented.

Overall its funny seeing BDA wanting changes when changes THEY implemented hurt the Kunark raid scene quite immeasurably.

[jcr4990]

in fact vanilla EQ was very much designed towards a competitive high end.

That's why PvP servers were so wildly popular and why P99 Red is thriving and many servers in classic had GM enforced rotations

http://i.imgur.com/2yllYmM.gif

[Maner]

That's why PvP servers were so wildly popular and why P99 Red is thriving and many servers in classic had GM enforced rotations

http://i.imgur.com/2yllYmM.gif

do you have any evidence of GM enforced rotations on classic servers?

[Ella`Ella]

Ban Poopsocking
Ban Bards
Unban Bards
Ban Bards again
Ban lull through walls
Ban popping an eye through a wall
Ban glitching through locked doors
Ban kiting
Ban any speed greater than SoW
Allow kiting in certain situations
Allow kiting but make guild sacrifice all but one dragon being kited
Ban more than 2 trackers
Make all players start at a zone line for mobs
Ban any player past zone line
Ban gating to mobs
Ban trackers getting FTE
Ban DA idol stalling
Ban any spell after a single DA spell/item/effect is already used
Ban Ogre Walls
Ban Crown of Rile

See what I'm getting at?

[Ella`Ella]

We desperately need a GM familiar with the raid scene and mechanics and not someone that just throws out rules and punishments when they feel like it. This isn't a knock on Sirken, it's just obvious he's not familiar with the tactics that are and have been used to pull dragons for years.

The real problems are more centered around...
[B]
1) GM intervention is inconsistent (This is what creates lawyerquest) and CSR has yet to have a GM on staff that understands the raid scene and mechanics fully.



Heard 'dat

[jcr4990]

do you have any evidence of GM enforced rotations on classic servers?

Finding concrete evidence of that is going to be next to impossible. I can link you prolly 100 posts of people saying that their server was like that in classic but that doesn't "prove" anything does it? What kind of evidence are you looking for? How about the fact that they did it recently on TLP's?

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/enforced-raid-rotations-coming-to-ragefire-and-lockjaw.225229/

My server in classic was a kind of First in Force system and it was definitely GM enforced. Nobody tracked shit for 16 hours and FTE'd it in under a minute though. People just periodically checked if shit was up and if it was they mobilized to kill it and whoever had a raid force present first got the first attempt at it. If you wiped other guilds could try. Some guild tried to leapfrog my guild for Faydedar in classic and a GM showed up within minutes and told them to fuck off. They made a habit of trying to leapfrog and eventually I think they ate a suspension or something. I don't remember exactly what the punishment was.

[reborn649]

All idiot remarks aside:

This same argument has been coming up for years now and will literally never go away because there is absolutely NO WAY to make everyone happy.

Classic saw 1, maybe 2 high end guilds doing the content during an expansions release. This clearly isnt a classic server, so we have a handful of guilds all trying to see the same end game. Either setup a GM enforced rotation (which will clear out a good percentage of players) or make a rule of "FTE by any means necessary" (which will clear out a good percentage of players). There is NO WAY to make everyone happy. Trying to argue that certain items give the slightest advantage and penalizing players for farming those items and having the intelligence to know how to use them for an advantage is the most absurd train of thought I have ever heard. What fun is it if everyone is on the exact same page? If you want that, just make the rules that everyone should wear cloth gear, zero buffs, and if you have less than 60 FPS you cannot participate for fear of advantage.

Also banning people without any sanctioned "rule" in place is completely unnecessary. What people have been doing for years on this server cannot justifiably cause a suspension due to a couple people's complaint.

Start a new blue server, FTE by any means necessary, or GM enforced rotation. Without any of those 3 things happening, this idiocy will never end.

[Mistle]

How dare someone use RnF for logic?

Signal is still upset from humiliations earlier. :D Honestly his posts have been so shitty I am surprised he is still bothering to post with that account.

[jcr4990]

Ban Poopsocking
Ban Bards
Unban Bards
Ban Bards again
Ban lull through walls
Ban popping an eye through a wall
Ban glitching through locked doors
Ban kiting
Ban any speed greater than SoW
Allow kiting in certain situations
Allow kiting but make guild sacrifice all but one dragon being kited
Ban more than 2 trackers
Make all players start at a zone line for mobs
Ban any player past zone line
Ban gating to mobs
Ban trackers getting FTE
Ban DA idol stalling
Ban any spell after a single DA spell/item/effect is already used
Ban Ogre Walls
Ban Crown of Rile

See what I'm getting at?

I fully understand where you're coming from and can see why people would have a problem with it. But you and I both know how fucking dumb everything gets when there are no rules. I guess that's what you probably want though right? Just return to the "glory days" of TMO single guild dominance?

In all seriousness can you even imagine how stupid shit would get with no rules? It'd literally be 5 guilds sitting on top of spawn points with KS groups waiting to pounce and A/A would win literally every single time cause of gear disparity. Koraf showed up in PoM a couple weeks ago when I was trio'ing Puppets and literally KS'd all 3 of us. 60 mnk 60 epic mage 60 torpor shaman w pet and dots without using Duelist (or so he says :P) just to prove he could do it. You trying to tell me any guild would stand a chance against 6 BiS Rogues?

[Raev]

How exactly? Naturally speaking English would imply you were born in the United States. Where is any race included in that comment? However a majority of non English speaking native people would suggest people from another country. Perhaps you should refrain from attaching race to comments that don't include skin tone.

Your initial statement was 'if you discriminate against people who don't speak English, you are a racist'. This implies that there is no difference between discriminating against people who don't speak proper English and discriminating against people with dark skin, which implies that those two groups overlap perfectly, which, since there are plenty of people with dark skin who grew up in English speaking countries, implies that people with dark skin cannot learn English, which is by definition discrimination on the basis of race.

TLDR: you calling other people racist is pure projection on your part

[Swish]

There definitely needs to be rules, more rules and yet more rules before anyone is allowed to have 'fun'

[jcr4990]

There definitely needs to be rules, more rules and yet more rules before anyone is allowed to have 'fun'

http://i.imgur.com/XL7fLlN.jpg

I wonder how much fun your "true casual guild" pals would have on a no rules server. How many dragons per year u think they'd get?

[Swish]

http://i.imgur.com/XL7fLlN.jpg

I wonder how much fun your "true casual guild" pals would have on a no rules server. How many dragons per year u think they'd get?

I'm talking Venerate and guilds on that level... that raid a bit but still have people coming through.

Perhaps we should force them to disband and merge into existing raid guilds that can do the content, BDA rotation management style?

Also you seem to have ignored my well typed out post from the previous page and are choosing to shitpost instead.

[Mistle]

Logic? He literally says "EQ has never been a game built for that sort of style" when in fact vanilla EQ was very much designed towards a competitive high end.

What is your evidence for this? Can you point to a dev quote or something to indicate this?

I don't have much difficulty finding evidence that it WASN'T... especially the undeniable fact that they deliberately changed it so direct competition wasn't possible any more. They were so *sick* of dealing with the Maners of the world, it was the easiest way out.

WOW is the epitome of what ruined mmos so using it to try and justify some type of rotation or further GM influence in the raid scene is just stupidity.

I know following basic arguments is a lot to ask of you, given your pretty sad history here, but try to follow along. Maybe you can get Phil to explain it to you if he's still trying to get into your pants. No one is using WoW as justification for a rotation. WoW is simply an example of how mmorpgs evolved so that people like you would stop wrecking them. That's all!

:D

[Maner]

Finding concrete evidence of that is going to be next to impossible. I can link you prolly 100 posts of people saying that their server was like that in classic but that doesn't "prove" anything does it? What kind of evidence are you looking for? How about the fact that they did it recently on TLP's?

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/enforced-raid-rotations-coming-to-ragefire-and-lockjaw.225229/

My server in classic was a kind of First in Force system and it was definitely GM enforced. Nobody tracked shit for 16 hours and FTE'd it in under a minute though. People just periodically checked if shit was up and if it was they mobilized to kill it and whoever had a raid force present first got the first attempt at it. If you wiped other guilds could try. Some guild tried to leapfrog my guild for Faydedar in classic and a GM showed up within minutes and told them to fuck off. They made a habit of trying to leapfrog and eventually I think they ate a suspension or something. I don't remember exactly what the punishment was.

How does what daybreak does on the TLPs reflect in anyway towards what happened during velious on original release? And the daybreak enforced rotation sure lasted a long time and worked so well on the TLP servers now didn't it?

There wasn't variance in vanilla so using what we have to do to track on this EMU is irrelevant.

The only rotation that ever existed on Xev in regards to ToV was after luclin and maybe even PoP came out, the guild that killed aary got 48 hours to clear Ntov. However this agreement never even went into affect until after vulak was changed to a ring event, if you want a time frame reference.

The TLPs right now are DPS races on raid targets unless you are in an instance version. In which whatever guild that brings the most SKs to HT and so on gets the kill no matter who was first in force or who engaged first.

Player made agreements and GM enforced agreements are very different, unless you can actually provide a post from a GM in era stating that they enforced a rotation then you cant prove your claim in any way.

I remember very clearly knowing the spawn time of arry in tov and having 4 guilds inside ToV waiting. Then all 4 of the guilds would basically bum rush aary and whichever raid got exp had ntov

[Maner]

Your initial statement was 'if you discriminate against people who don't speak English, you are a racist'. This implies that there is no difference between discriminating against people who don't speak proper English and discriminating against people with dark skin, which implies that those two groups overlap perfectly, which, since there are plenty of people with dark skin who grew up in English speaking countries, implies that people with dark skin cannot learn English, which is by definition discrimination on the basis of race.

TLDR: you calling other people racist is pure projection on your part

you should look at my original statement again. it was regarding people who don't naturally speak English, which would refer to pretty much anyone born in another country. I never said anything regarding people learning to speak English, however its not the native language in other countries so it wouldn't be their natural language. Again, you are the one who attached race to my comment not me. Fix yourself before attempting to point out the flaws in others kiddo.

[Raev]

The fact that you are conflating English ability with race is in fact racist. I don't know how to make this any simpler.

[Maner]

The fact that you are conflating English ability with race is in fact racist. I don't know how to make this any simpler.

where did I ever state that other races weren't able to learn English? stating that other countries and nationalities don't have English as their native languages is now racist? LMAO this country is going to shit on the backs of casuals

[Signal]

The fact that you are conflating English ability with race is in fact racist. I don't know how to make this any simpler.

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever seen posted. Wow.

[Raev]

I feel like I'm arguing with non-native speakers right now

[Swish]

Sadly the first language of these forums have become pixelese :/

[EvilQuest]

I'm talking Venerate and guilds on that level... that raid a bit but still have people coming through.

Perhaps we should force them to disband and merge into existing raid guilds that can do the content, BDA rotation management style?

Also you seem to have ignored my well typed out post from the previous page and are choosing to shitpost instead.

u not getting enough attention for crying about bda anymore?

[NarcolepticLTD]

LMAO this country is going to shit on the backs of casuals

This is almost sig worthy right here.

[Gimp]

Totally never got suspended for rile jumping, bros.

Rage on, though!

Nalken totally did though.

P99 GMs, the model of consistently.

Fucking lulz

[Swish]

consistency*

[Swish]

u not getting enough attention for crying about bda anymore?

Still getting some, apparently :o

[Gimp]

consistency*

I'm hung over as fuck and my phone has a mind of its own. Blow me.

[Freakish]

I was lied to on RnF? I don't know what to believe now.

[Swish]

http://i.imgur.com/Ix50w10.jpg

[Ravager]

Having no rules is so much fun that everyone is playing on Red now.

[EvilQuest]

ban for old nudity

[Swish]

ban for old nudity

If you're offended by somebody's ass I'd suggest you log out of the internet and not return. Or get AOL.

[virulentthemonstaire]

lolz