Circlet of Shadow & FD Interaction - Resolved

[Jayko]

On live you could FD on top of a mob, even if it was scowls, stand up and press CoS at literally the same time, and the mob would simply stand there, doing nothing, and you could happily walk away provided it didn't see invis.

Although we have the pre-nerf version of CoS on p99 beta, this mechanic is NOT working. I attempted it 30+ times and the mob was at times even interrupting the Circlet cast itself. I had thought Starklen was simply a huge noob because 1.) he didn't know about this mechanic and 2.) couldn't reproduce it once told about it.

Turns out, he's still a noob for not knowing, but, you can't do it on scowls mobs. I could reliably reproduce this mechanic on mobs that were Threateningly (like 90% of the time I could stand with no issues) but could not do it even once for mobs that were scowls. Several other necros can corroborate this mechanic and there is a post from Alla in 2004 even regarding the pre-patch CoS:

"See now theres this thing, ya all seem to think the coolest part of this is being able to invis while something is standing over you right after standing up from feign and it not getting agro...yer missing the BEST part. The invis is FASTER then that, if you time it JUST right (hitting stand and invis buttons at ALMOST the exact same time...) and said mob doesnt see invis....it will never register you stood up at all until invis breaks. you go from conning indif to conning indif so fast it thinks yer still feigned. lets say the mob is a roamer, prior to the feign death changes it would never have forgotten about you no matter how long you stayed feigned. if you stood up and cast a normal invis, even if its not near you, it will damn sure remember you and come running soon as its near ya, but if you use a prenerf CoS, it will think yer still feigned as long as the invis holds up...very handy for making quick getaways prior to the feign death changes....not so much anymore"

I don't know which FD changes he was referring to as by 2004 I was no longer playing, however I do know in Kunark era we should be able to do this without any issues. Not sure what the problem is, I'd imagine it has something to do with latency (or lack thereof) as it works on threatening mobs with their slight aggro delay but not Scowls. If there is any way to address this it should definitely be looked at as it really is the entire reason CoS was such a sought after and class defining item for both necros and SKs.

[Starklen]

Pretty much everything he said is spot on. Neither of us could get out of FD and invis without getting hit. He sat around 58 ping, I was closer to 118. I have doubts that individual ping is the exact issue but it could be. It almost feels like maybe monsters are reacting aggressively to a player that enter agro range in a manner that is too fast. Honestly, I have no clue. I didn't play a necro on live so I'm pleading ignorance here.

[Ashkari]

I can agree to the monsters agroing too fast on entering their agro range - I used to play a Ranger on live and in Ssra temple I could jump between two mobs and click sneak without getting agro to go through the entire place, when I had spirit of wolf up. If sneak failed you would get agro, but if it succeeded you were in their agro range for little enough time without getting behind them. This seems like a similar enough mechanic to what is being described here with CoS on ready to attack mobs.

The other thing that I've noticed is that CoS will interrupt about 20-30% of the time if you cast it while moving... this should be impossible. I don't know what the difference in coding between CoS & Jboots are, but I've never had Jboots interrupt.

[Jayko]

I had thought Starklen was simply a huge noob

Pretty much everything he said is spot on.

Had to point this out.

-Jayko

[Starklen]

lol

[Bubbles]

I doubt ping would have anything to do with it. Lord can only imagine what ping people had back *in* 1999. And it was a commonly accepted tactic across the board back in the day.. And people had 56k.. webTV.. Sat Internet and all sorts of wild setups back then.

[Trystych]

The other thing that I've noticed is that CoS will interrupt about 20-30% of the time if you cast it while moving... this should be impossible. I don't know what the difference in coding between CoS & Jboots are, but I've never had Jboots interrupt.

This mechanic could probably be fixed by setting CoS on p99 to instant, which is how it behaved on live. It never failed on live to click circlet while running and have it reapply, regardless of what movement speed buffs you had.

[Uthgaard]

Done.

But the reason is most likely that the server runs better than a cluster of 2 dozen of soe's servers would have in 2000.

[astuce999]

Do mobs only check for aggro/assist once every server tick on here like in classic or are they continuously checking for it (because of better technology)?

[Starklen]

They were checking continuously (or fast enough to make it seem that way) from what I could tell.

[Xadion]

Just chimeing in- as this is indeed true, you also could recast prenerf cos while running thru mobs with no agro etc etc- stand->insta invs = the awsome

[Trystych]

I don't have one on test to verify, but on live you could also tag something, hit circlet, and run through other mobs and pull it solo provided nothing else was within range on the initial tag. Used this to pull Talendor to Burning Woods zoneline without adds quite often.

[Starklen]

You can still kind of do that using the current version on beta, but it fails sometimes.

[Yulath]

Just to add my .02....Skie was doing this pretty consistently a while back when we went up and tried to 4man plane of sky =D

[Jayko]

Skie was doing it using hide while FD to preclude the issue on standing. I think Uth had the issue nailed though, it's really that the server is probably running better than SoEs and we're all on LOWER latency not higher. Instant cast as opposed to .1s should fix it though, thanks Uth.

-Jayko

[Haynar]

The aggro checks after standing will be almost instantly. The mechanic is not there for this to work. Playing an SK on live, I know how this should work. This and sneak pulling need to be worked on.

H

[RocketMoose]

The CoS (even prenerf) was 'nerfed' to a .1 second cast. It still worked though, then, AND now on Live servers. Which I'm sorry, your server doesn't run better than Live servers, not even close.

I could out pull any one on my raids, mobs that needed split we always used me on my SK to split cause no one could touch me. DC mob, run away, Feign, wait til reset stand, and pull 1 out of an infinite number of KoS mobs, OR, tag, run, snare, Feign, stand and insta invis, wait til mobs moved, tag and pull. Tons of ways to do it, but the insta and .1 cast on the CoS made no difference to this mechanic.

[Haynar]

The CoS (even prenerf) was 'nerfed' to a .1 second cast. It still worked though, then, AND now on Live servers. Which I'm sorry, your server doesn't run better than Live servers, not even close.
I know live servers have better funding. You do the math.

The mechanic is not there to support this in the server code. It has nothing to do with latency, server performance, etc.

There needs to be a slight delay from the time you stand up, until there is an aggro check performed or the mobs sucessively aggro, something. Messing with how mobs aggro can affect so many things, so making changes is very tricky.

I know proximity here will aggro mobs faster than on live. I think that is where the key is. Its almost as if you need to pass 2 checks, about 1 sec apart, before the mob will aggro. If that is the case, that time interval needs determined.

H

[Haynar]

I might be able to figure this out on live, by slowly inching up to a mob and see the distance appart it aggros. Then do some running at the mob, see where it aggros. I might be able to figure out if there is a delay, or what. I am not sure of the mechanic on live that exists, that allow this.

H

[Zeelot]

Just wanted to further confirm the circlet should be allowing non-aggro invis clicks immediately upon standing from FD. Chain clicking while running should also result in no aggro. Unfortunately I'm not sure what the trick was on live for this to be implemented :( I'll see if I can find anything.

[Haynar]

Just wanted to further confirm the circlet should be allowing non-aggro invis clicks immediately upon standing from FD. Chain clicking while running should also result in no aggro. Unfortunately I'm not sure what the trick was on live for this to be implemented :( I'll see if I can find anything.
The server is not programmed to support CoS working like it did on live.

There is no trick. It just worked. I know how it should work.

I have a fix almost finished. I figured how why live worked the way it does. I have some data to take, and some timing to figure out. But I almost have the CoS behavior totally replicated from how it used to work.

Lucky for me, I have a Pre-Nerf CoS on live. So I have one to test with.

H

[Haynar]

I got it all figured out and working pretty sweet. So hopefully it will go out the next time the beta server is patched.

H

[Droop]

I got it all figured out and working pretty sweet. So hopefully it will go out the next time the beta server is patched.

H

This fix across the board so things like sneak pulling and such should work better?

Even if not- hells ya on getting this done! Thanks for your hard work Haynar!