Raid Changes

[Danyelle]

Things like "hey all our warriors are actually epiced, we will trade you our masetro for your VS" could even happen. My point is, maybe taking out the speculation of making sure you get this mob or that mob, might also releave some of the tight butt hole stress.

While I agree with many of your points, I want to point out this particularly. This can happen with or without variance. A mobs varied spawn timer plays little to no part in whether this particular event occurs. If a raid guild decides it wants every mob for itself, regardless of need, they will attempt to make it so and, varied spawn or not, the above situation won't happen.

[Joroz]

p99 isn't live. it has and will continue to develop its own unique circumstances and will need unique fixes that were not originally addressed in the live patching timeline or policy enforced by the live admins.

[Naerron]

While I agree with many of your points, I want to point out this particularly. This can happen with or without variance. A mobs varied spawn timer plays little to no part in whether this particular event occurs. If a raid guild decides it wants every mob for itself, regardless of need, they will attempt to make it so and, varied spawn or not, the above situation won't happen.

I guess my point is that the lack of variance takes out a lot of the speculation, even the certainty of the a mob spawning isn't as reassuring as knowing when it's spawning, meaning knowing when you'll get yours i guess. Anyone who lived through 2008 should realize the danger of speculation.

[Visual]

Defeat the purpose of playing Everquest

[Silentone]

rotation served daily at your local homeless shelters. enjoy

[Slave]

Removing unClassical variance, adding FTE shout with at least 2 resets per month, would be ideal. The server as a whole would benefit greatly.

Xasten and Naerron have got the 100% right idea.

[Lazortag]

I used to think removing the variance entirely was the answer, but I think simultaneous repops are actually better. I figured people would realize the futility of sitting on spawn points for hours on end just to get a chance at pixels, but then realized that people still resort to poopsocking on this server, as well as tracking mobs for several days straight, and they call it "competition". Everyone who thinks this is an unreasonable, unclassic waste of time is derided as wanting a "handout". So we need a solution that removes barriers for entry into the raid scene but is still competitive. Removing variance either forces rotations or forces poopsocking, neither of which are desirable in my mind.

Still, no variance is better than the insanely long variance we have now.

[Atmas]

Some interesting thoughts, but I still feel like this doesn't address the bulbously top heavy server with lack of new content issues.

I had a thought that maybe keeping variance but switching it to a 5 day window from time of death, instead of a range around the normal respawn might be better. To furhter explain if a mob like CT was killed he would respawn anytime from immediately up until 5 days later. This would make it so that any mob could potentially spawn at any point, instead of having only a few in a window. Yes, this could lead to some poop socking when things are approaching the 5th day but I think it also means slightly more spawns.

[Alarti0001]

Some interesting thoughts, but I still feel like this doesn't address the bulbously top heavy server with lack of new content issues.

I had a thought that maybe keeping variance but switching it to a 5 day window from time of death, instead of a range around the normal respawn might be better. To furhter explain if a mob like CT was killed he would respawn anytime from immediately up until 5 days later. This would make it so that any mob could potentially spawn at any point, instead of having only a few in a window. Yes, this could lead to some poop socking when things are approaching the 5th day but I think it also means slightly more spawns.

A combination of xastens idea plus new content is the fix

[Quizy]

A combination of xastens idea plus new content is the fix

As the server goes through the motions again these threads start popping up more and more..

I totally think simulated patch day re-pops will make things much more amiable..... but i really think its just the server needing Velious really bad.. however just adding this stuff is going to create alot more work for some people.. i realize that time put in for this project is already probably rediculously hi numbers, but this will create even MORE work for the server staff..

It still needs to be addressed however!

[Tarathiel]

ok bro, i quit eq before velious was even released back in the day. and i can tell you with 100% conviction that "poop socking" "rules lawyering" and "FTE shit fests" did not exist back then. neither did variance. so at least from my point of view rotations are fully classic

[Quizy]

ok bro, i quit eq before velious was even released back in the day. and i can tell you with 100% conviction that "poop socking" "rules lawyering" and "FTE shit fests" did not exist back then. neither did variance. so at least from my point of view rotations are fully classic

"forced rotations" also did not exists, they were agree'd upon by leaders of top guilds on the server.

[Tarathiel]

"forced rotations" also did not exists, they were agree'd upon by leaders of top guilds on the server.

so whats the problem here? it seems like every guild on this server is in favor of a rotation with the exception of one.....

[Tarathiel]

double post oops

[radditsu]

i really think its just the server needing Velious really bad.


On live, "casual" guilds did not have the time to gear up like a well oiled raiding full time guild did, due to the speed of the development cycle. Casuals would take their time to max level a few hours here and there. They would also be able to get a raid mob once or twice a week when their guild needed to. Example; before i became more hard core on live i was excited about a short sword of morin quest. Velious would help us get out of each others way. If you guys want to rush to NTOV, do giant armor faction, get to sleepers tomb and farm primals for the rest of your life go ahead. Casuals will eat up the higher kunark content, then work through dwarf faction armors etc etc. The development schedule is out of wack which causes problems.

We can't do anything about that. We can live with each other, even if it is just temporary, until velious is here.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I find the strong desire for forced rotations to be potentially troublesome.

To explain, I came from Prexus which, for good or bad, had one of the last and certainly the broadest rotation system in EQ for its time. Because the rotations were open to all guilds, they eventually ballooned to immense proportions. Guilds were having to wait over 17 weeks for VS. This caused all sorts of problems. It also gave other guilds an artificial reason to stay on the rotations. The top guilds continued to "take a number" and kill spawns uncontested to pad their guild bank. Had the rotations not been in place, the top guilds would have quickly left that content behind.

That said, P99 has fewer players, a longer development cycle so players will not abandon content so quickly, and more GM involvement.

Rotations might work, but be careful what you wish for. True, rotations would give guilds access to mobs they had previously never seen. Some kills are better than no kills. However, in the long run, it might harm the number of targets for any given mid-tier guild. Without rotations, smaller guilds are forced to seek alliance and collaboration. With rotations, everyone wants to run their own raid guild, and they can thanks to uncontested spawns.

I believe that simulated patches with FTE shouts, while maintaining the variance, is clearly the superior (but not only) option. Simultaneous spawns dilutes monopoly powers. If the "patches" are announced, smaller guilds with lesser mobilization skills can still compete.

[Atmas]

ok bro, i quit eq before velious was even released back in the day. and i can tell you with 100% conviction that "poop socking" "rules lawyering" and "FTE shit fests" did not exist back then. neither did variance. so at least from my point of view rotations are fully classic


I played on Tallon Zek, no rotations on anything until mabye end of Luclin content, and even then it was on maybe two mobs and just between two guilds who had a non agression pact. The top guild did not participate.There was also absolutely no poop socking, didn't even know the term till I played here. So neither of those are classic from my perspective.

I'm actually surprised that you saw rotations on mobs before Velious.

[Danyelle]

Velious, while most definitely necessary, is not the answer to everyone's problems. It is a temporary fix at best. Akin to wearing a band-aid or duct taping the rearview mirror back onto your pickem-up truck. The issues at hand in Kunark would simply move over to Velious. If Luclin were released the issues in Velious would move over to Luclin. Content releases aren't a fix they delay the inevitable. There needs to be an overall shift in the way content functions or rule changes, otherwise no one on this server will be happy, barring those at the top (Whoever that may be at any given point in time. It may not always be TMO. It was not always Fires of Heaven, nor was it always Triality, nor was it always Inglorious Basterds. Top guild shifts happen, frequently. Regardless who is at the top, they will be the only ones happy with things as they stand.)

[radditsu]

I find the strong desire for forced rotations to be potentially troublesome.

To explain, I came from Prexus which, for good or bad, had one of the last and certainly the broadest rotation system in EQ for its time. Because the rotations were open to all guilds, they eventually ballooned to immense proportions. Guilds were having to wait over 17 weeks for VS. This caused all sorts of problems. It also gave other guilds an artificial reason to stay on the rotations. The top guilds continued to "take a number" and kill spawns uncontested to pad their guild bank. Had the rotations not been in place, the top guilds would have quickly left that content behind.

That said, P99 has fewer players, a longer development cycle so players will not abandon content so quickly, and more GM involvement.

Rotations might work, but be careful what you wish for. True, rotations would give guilds access to mobs they had previously never seen. Some kills are better than no kills. However, in the long run, it might harm the number of targets for any given mid-tier guild. Without rotations, smaller guilds are forced to seek alliance and collaboration. With rotations, everyone wants to run their own raid guild, and they can thanks to uncontested spawns.

I believe that simulated patches with FTE shouts, while maintaining the variance, is clearly the superior (but not only) option. Simultaneous spawns dilutes monopoly powers. If the "patches" are announced, smaller guilds with lesser mobilization skills can still compete.


On povar we did stay on the TOV/AOW rotation far longer than we needed to. But it was mainly to gear recruits and get some Blades of Carnage, they were still great easy to get aggro.

In order to prevent rotation bloat, of which i do not think we have to worry about due to less population here, is to both give arbitrary speed of the kills, and keep the rotation a tight number with one or two open slots for smaller guilds attempts. Combined with honesty from the top end about why they need to kill the said mobs.

Example. 3 guilds on VP rotation with 1-2 open slot. In order to be on the permanent list you have to kill every dragon that spawns in VP at a certain timeframe. If you do not do this for 3 straight kills, you get dropped back into an open slot, and miss your next rotation. In this example TMO leaves, says they do not need VP anymore. Then they realize that one of their hardcore guys needs something there. They immediately get the next open spot. The guilds that keep the rotation do not lose it. The only people that lose out are the guilds that are still proving themselves.

This example is imploded with variance. But you get the overall idea.
This type of senario will also never happen. Its way too carebear for everyone involved.


That's why its going to be a mob by mob basis if anything ever happens. Like a dojo cycle, or Trak. It would give TMO the ability to show its "benevolent" side, and PR for later. It would give other guilds loot and a cool raid to look forward to. There ya go

[Silentone]

On povar we did stay on the TOV/AOW rotation far longer than we needed to. But it was mainly to gear recruits and get some Blades of Carnage, they were still great easy to get aggro.

In order to prevent rotation bloat, of which i do not think we have to worry about due to less population here, is to both give arbitrary speed of the kills, and keep the rotation a tight number with one or two open slots for smaller guilds attempts. Combined with honesty from the top end about why they need to kill the said mobs.

Example. 3 guilds on VP rotation with 1-2 open slot. In order to be on the permanent list you have to kill every dragon that spawns in VP at a certain timeframe. If you do not do this for 3 straight kills, you get dropped back into an open slot, and miss your next rotation. In this example TMO leaves, says they do not need VP anymore. Then they realize that one of their hardcore guys needs something there. They immediately get the next open spot. The guilds that keep the rotation do not lose it. The only people that lose out are the guilds that are still proving themselves.

This example is imploded with variance. But you get the overall idea.
This type of senario will also never happen. Its way too carebear for everyone involved.


That's why its going to be a mob by mob basis if anything ever happens. Like a dojo cycle, or Trak. It would give TMO the ability to show its "benevolent" side, and PR for later. It would give other guilds loot and a cool raid to look forward to. There ya go

if you had only seen our boards 1 week prior to our suspension, and now...its sad what a few spitful people are causing.

[Asher]

I find the strong desire for forced rotations to be potentially troublesome.

To explain, I came from Prexus which, for good or bad, had one of the last and certainly the broadest rotation system in EQ for its time. Because the rotations were open to all guilds, they eventually ballooned to immense proportions. Guilds were having to wait over 17 weeks for VS. This caused all sorts of problems. It also gave other guilds an artificial reason to stay on the rotations. The top guilds continued to "take a number" and kill spawns uncontested to pad their guild bank. Had the rotations not been in place, the top guilds would have quickly left that content behind.


I don't remember Prexus being that bad. KTF ran the rotation. IIRC, there were maybe 4 or 5 guilds tops in the rotation when I left for FV in 2001/2002ish.

I don't recall when it happened but around 2001/2002ish Stasis decided it would no longer respect rotations and everything went to hell.

My old RL friend was Stasis' raid leader (Crucible/Chrysalid) until he left for WoW and iirc they didn't reintroduce a rotation at all during his time.

Prior to server numbers being removed I think Prexus was boasting 1.5 to 2k people during Kunark and if a rotation could be managed than I am sure it could be done with the fraction of that number on P99.

All it takes is one guild to break the rotation.

Asher

[Ele]

While these problems existed on live servers, they were inevitably delayed through the continued release of new content. The top guilds were not stuck farming Nag/Vox/CT/Inny for a year before Kunark came out. Only a very few select guilds could even get those guys on farm status before Kunark came out. Those same top guilds only had 5 months before epics dropped and 9 months before Velious released. There were no paint-by-numbers walkthroughs from day zero of each expansion release. People spent months figuring out Kunark quests, epic quests, and then Velious quests. The top guilds moved on because they had to in order to figure out the new fights and solve the new quests. This is what kept people busy. None of P99's content is going to be "new". People will know what to do and where to go from Day Zero.

Leveling on live was also much, much slower due to the much larger server populations. More people for the same amount of mobs meant fewer mobs per capita. (On my server the first three kobolds in the SolB hallway, the GIBS in LGuk, and the Upper Zone Out of Seb were all camps that supported a group of 6. Seb and KC usually had 80-100 people during peak hours. Here, KC is overcrowded with 36 people in zone.) Tons of people were not even level 60 when Velious hit further distributing the population among the different zones for leveling; and new people were continually streaming into this awesome new game "Everquest" so the lower level zones always had new people coming and going. P99 had level 60s in the second week of Kunark coming out and has caused an overcrowding issue in the end game.

[radditsu]

if you had only seen our boards 1 week prior to our suspension, and now...its sad what a few spitful people are causing.

So why are we letting a few hurt feelings on each side of the aisle get in the way?
The whole raid ban/fraps thing seemed like a desperate attempt for some kind of communication to come across. Desperation breeds drastic action. It also breeds contempt.However, It also looks like there is now some nuggets of understanding each way. If you guys come back in a week and all of a sudden have this "we are going to completely screw everybody's fun" after the awesome open trak kill and open naggy raids, and all of that? That's the worst idea for the good of the server I have seen.

Leaders get to talking, hammer something out this week so that when TMO comes back, its not a cluster of anger and frustration at the top end. Its more of them getting to race fight kill and loot, but in a less hostile fashion :p

[Xadion]

Rotations are stupid, any form and every form are stupid.

Velious will indeed help more so than Kunark

Classic: CT Draco Inny Maestro Phinny Vox Naggy (7) (sky?)
Kunark: VS, Trak, Gore, Tal, Sev, Fay (6) - no i am not counting VP really
Velious: too many to list... and ToV counts as it is not keyed like VP so its open to all.

Velious is a raid expansion and will shift the raid scene a lot more than going from classic to kunark did- also kunark did not total replace classic- velious replaced 90% of all slots for all classes- as in kunark you still wanted planar armor and sky stuff etc

And you cant expect to trap a snake in a bag, shake it up and then when it comes out expect it to give you a kiss and move along....

[Frieza_Prexus]

I don't remember Prexus being that bad. KTF ran the rotation. IIRC, there were maybe 4 or 5 guilds tops in the rotation when I left for FV in 2001/2002ish.

I don't recall when it happened but around 2001/2002ish Stasis decided it would no longer respect rotations and everything went to hell.

My old RL friend was Stasis' raid leader (Crucible/Chrysalid) until he left for WoW and iirc they didn't reintroduce a rotation at all during his time.

Prior to server numbers being removed I think Prexus was boasting 1.5 to 2k people during Kunark and if a rotation could be managed than I am sure it could be done with the fraction of that number on P99.

All it takes is one guild to break the rotation.

Asher

This is somewhat of a tangent.

I was Frieza and I was an officer in Stasis during the time the rotations were broken. They were very well organized. They were not small. Stasis had originally intended (READ: Axiss and Myself) to open a discussion and issue an ultimatum that in 2-3 weeks any mob with over 4-5 guilds on the rotation would be formally disregarded by Stasis. Instead, Nasir jumped the gun and just did it (without consent of the officer base).

It was, frankly, stupid to wait over 17 weeks to kill VS. Rotations are very workable when they're small. Beyond that, it is unworkable and completely unfair to those who can devote more than a modicum of time to the mob. The very casuals can still see the high end content when the higher guilds move on.

[radditsu]

And you cant expect to trap a snake in a bag, shake it up and then when it comes out expect it to give you a kiss and move along....

So when you come back, and we are raiding, and one of you guys are in the zone. We have to fraps the entire thing? You guys are going to "lock down the server" because you got caught doing something wrong? Grow up, let people with cooler heads come to a better judgement than these baiting comments.

I love this server. I consider myself "hard core"...but i have a wife and kid. If I can't log in and enjoy myself, EZ server, PEQ, EQMAC, Hiddenforest(whatever), WOW, SWTOR, RIFT, EQLIVE(people begging me to play there), EVE, Pirates of the carribean mmo, Hello Kittys tropical Island, Mass Effect 3, Kingdoms of Alamaur, and Batman Arkham City can occupy my time. Everybody else can start to see the same, and then you guys are going to be Kings and Queens of the ether. Dicks now = nothing later.

[Asher]

This is somewhat of a tangent.

I was Frieza and I was an officer in Stasis during the time the rotations were broken. They were very well organized. They were not small. Stasis had originally intended (READ: Axiss and Myself) to open a discussion and issue an ultimatum that in 2-3 weeks any mob with over 4-5 guilds on the rotation would be formally disregarded by Stasis. Instead, Nasir jumped the gun and just did it (without consent of the officer base).

It was, frankly, stupid to wait over 17 weeks to kill VS. Rotations are very workable when they're small. Beyond that, it is unworkable and completely unfair to those who can devote more than a modicum of time to the mob. The very casuals can still see the high end content when the higher guilds move on.

My main point was that I don't recall it being anywhere near 17 weeks. I was in Souls of Mir and we raided some targets with NO at the time. Mobs spawn every 7 days? 4 or 5 guilds means 4 or 5 weeks per target assuming all guilds were capable of killing the target. KTF only let people in on the rotation on the mob if they could demonstrate that they were capable of killing it.

How are you arriving at this 17 week number?

Asher

[Xadion]

So when you come back, and we are raiding, and one of you guys are in the zone. We have to fraps the entire thing? You guys are going to "lock down the server" because you got caught doing something wrong? Grow up, let people with cooler heads come to a better judgement than these baiting comments.

I love this server. I consider myself "hard core"...but i have a wife and kid. If I can't log in and enjoy myself, EZ server, PEQ, EQMAC, Hiddenforest(whatever), WOW, SWTOR, RIFT, EQLIVE(people begging me to play there), EVE, Pirates of the carribean mmo, Hello Kittys tropical Island, Mass Effect 3, Kingdoms of Alamaur, and Batman Arkham City can occupy my time. Everybody else can start to see the same, and then you guys are going to be Kings and Queens of the ether. Dicks now = nothing later.

Enjoy those other games- as everyone seems to want to turn Classic EQ into pussyfoot eq with mob and item welfare.

And indeed fraps everything, I know we will- you act like other guilds don't pull shady shit lol - I have been around on this server too long to be so ignorant nor believe the claims of innocence.

And I am just saying - you took the most hard core (in general) people of the server- caged them up for two weeks- then expect them not to be tripping hard for some raids?

[Bruman]

And I am just saying - you took the most hard core (in general) people of the server- caged them up for two weeks- then expect them not to be tripping hard for some raids?

There's a large difference between "We can't wait to get back to raiding" and "You've angered us and we're a big mean snake who want to bite."

[radditsu]

Enjoy those other games- as everyone seems to want to turn Classic EQ into pussyfoot eq with mob and item welfare.

And indeed fraps everything, I know we will- you act like other guilds don't pull shady shit lol - I have been around on this server too long to be so ignorant nor believe the claims of innocence.

And I am just saying - you took the most hard core (in general) people of the server- caged them up for two weeks- then expect them not to be tripping hard for some raids?

People just want the time and effort vs reward to what is similar on classic live.

[Frieza_Prexus]

My main point was that I don't recall it being anywhere near 17 weeks. I was in Souls of Mir and we raided some targets with NO at the time. Mobs spawn every 7 days? 4 or 5 guilds means 4 or 5 weeks per target assuming all guilds were capable of killing the target. KTF only let people in on the rotation on the mob if they could demonstrate that they were capable of killing it.

How are you arriving at this 17 week number?

Asher

My main point is that rotations are fine when they're small and well-controlled.

On Prexus 17 weeks was the projected kill time for VS because there were so many guilds on the rotation.

KTF, Unity, Domus Divinae, NO, Stasis, Trinity Alliance, Twilight Council, Twilight Avengers, Talionis, Southern Armada, D'Etre, Infinitus Vindicat, EA, Angel Time, Birds of Prey, PAI, Phoenix Elite (I think), Raging Boars (pre Unity merge), Skyfire, and several others all participated in the rotation system.

Any guild that could field a raid force was given a shot. There were always one or two attempts every spawn cycle for a guild to slide in causing further delay. At one point, there were over 17 guilds on the VS rotation. That is simply absurd.

[Splorf22]

Well I have been pushing for linked respawns for months now with no results, but hopefully this is what Nilbog has been hinting at. I actually think 2x/week with known times like they do on Eqmac would probably be best. FTE shout is a great idea, I would actually also suggest a spawn shout, ideally serverwide but even zonewide would be great. 'You dare challenge me' or some nonsense, just to eliminate this stupid tracking with audio triggers.

Elethia and Xasten are right on too; imagine having to actually figure out all the hints in those epic quests. Instead I had an epic <2 weeks after launch. Everyone knows the ins and outs of the quests, the best mechanics, the best items, the best strategy, etc. Velious will help a lot; I just bought a Sarnak Warhammer from Eleet's alt Kegluas because he got his *alt* VP weapons!

Xadion needs to get laid :P

[azeth]

I've nothing to say other than to the folks who joined post-poopsock era -

Without a variance, you will sit and wait for days to kill targets. Eventually, you'll find your guild distributing loot based on time played, not skill involved.

You do not want this.

I suggest you push for a rotation with TMO and leave the GMs alone.

[Zereh]

GM-led raids: They decide what mob you get to kill, HOW to kill the mob, what time the fight occurs, who is allowed to attend and then hand out loot Via the buddy system.

[Zereh]

Without a variance, you will sit and wait for days to kill targets. Eventually, you'll find your guild distributing loot based on time played, not skill involved.

This. x1000

[Tarathiel]

GM-led raids: They decide what mob you get to kill, HOW to kill the mob, what time the fight occurs, who is allowed to attend and then hand out loot Via the buddy system.

omg stop being so pessimistic, we are not calling for a GM enforced rotation, but for the players to come together (like we have been this past week) and work something out that will benefit everyone, not just the top 1% and their alts....

[Alarti0001]

omg stop being so pessimistic, we are not calling for a GM enforced rotation, but for the players to come together (like we have been this past week) and work something out that will benefit everyone, not just the top 1% and their alts....

Again according to server population alone tmo is the top 20-25%. How much loot reallocation do you want.

[Silentone]

No I won't talk about rotations. It won't happen.

nom nom nom

[Xadion]

nom nom nom

win... Must have missed that while I was out having sex.

[Tarathiel]

all that means to me is that GM's wont be enforcing a rotation, which is not what were asking for... if people could just stop acting like spoiled little children for 5 minutes im sure an agreement could be worked out that would require ZERO gm interference

[SamwiseBanned]

the only way to get ahead on these kinds of serves is to step on everyone who gets in your way.

[Quizy]

all that means to me is that GM's wont be enforcing a rotation, which is not what were asking for... if people could just stop acting like spoiled little children for 5 minutes im sure an agreement could be worked out that would require ZERO gm interference

Start showing us some damn respect then if you want some back.. geeze... we didnt even fraps and petition your draco kite because we were supposed to be showing you guys some fairness with mobs..

see how far that got us ? lol

[inyane]

It's got to be pretty hard from the TMO point of view, to keep logging in at all hours to kill the same crap over and over, specially when they don't even need most of the gear. I mean, if i got the batphone at 3am, woke up and logged in, just to watch the loot rot, or someones 3rd alt get it? meh

Which is probably where the mystery thread on their forums that they keep mentioning came from. How to get some positive press while giving up stuff they don't care about.

But, now with the suspension, they have their hate to keep them going for awhile longer. We must be punished and put in our place.

I fully expect them to lose many hours in the coming weeks keeping every single thing locked down, because you all have forgotten who really runs this server!

Frankly, I hope velious never comes, or is delayed for a really long time, because I would love to see how long TMO can keep this up.

[Stealin Dragons]

It's got to be pretty hard from the TMO point of view, to keep logging in at all hours to kill the same crap over and over, specially when they don't even need most of the gear. I mean, if i got the batphone at 3am, woke up and logged in, just to watch the loot rot, or someones 3rd alt get it? meh

Which is probably where the mystery thread on their forums that they keep mentioning came from. How to get some positive press while giving up stuff they don't care about.

But, now with the suspension, they have their hate to keep them going for awhile longer. We must be punished and put in our place.

I fully expect them to lose many hours in the coming weeks keeping every single thing locked down, because you all have forgotten who really runs this server!

Frankly, I hope velious never comes, or is delayed for a really long time, because I would love to see how long TMO can keep this up.

hmm, long hard fight to get where they are now? I am sure they could keep it up for quite awhile.

Think IB held top spot for about 1.5years, unquestionably. I think TMO could do the same.

Have fun waiting! :)

[HarrisonHarrisonHarrison]

Ban guilds that poopsock from the guild leader down, one by one, until they stop.

Problem solved forever. No guild will risk this.

The problem is the GMs rule with a fluffy fist and just let the guilds run amok, breaking rules, exploiting, nonstop, and they're so rarely punished for it that it is worth the risk.

If the risks were greater than the rewards, they wouldn't be doing it. This is why you have guilds like TMO doing what they do.

[Xanthias]

Ban guilds that poopsock from the guild leader down, one by one, until they stop.

Problem solved forever. No guild will risk this.

The problem is the GMs rule with a fluffy fist and just let the guilds run amok, breaking rules, exploiting, nonstop, and they're so rarely punished for it that it is worth the risk.

If the risks were greater than the rewards, they wouldn't be doing it. This is why you have guilds like TMO doing what they do.

sigh I actually have to quote you instead of just quick ignore... just to prove a point.

Has TMO done stuff, that is shady and I wish we hadn't? Yep.
Has IB done stuff that is shady? Yep.
Has Divinity done stuff that is shady? Yep.
Has Bregan Die done stuff that is shady? Yep.
Has noobguild 1492 done stuff that is shady? Yep.

Do you get the point?

There is NO SUCH THING as a 100% spotless and clean guild.
They are made up of individuals, each who brings something and whose actions can affect the perception of that guild.

Harrison, we ALL know you hate TMO, but seriously get some new material.


Now then on to what has been discussed. On MT there were rotations in Kunark for everyone, when Velious came out (Getsome, Trystych correct me if I'm wrong here been a while) TW, HF, & RA went there for raids on FTE basis, while a calendar system was used for planes and kunark (trak/vs only) content.

The main issue is: Content, I'd guess easily 50% of the server is 57+, most of us are bored, and boredom leads to people sniping more at each other.

[Pillow Armadillo]

But, now with the suspension, they have their hate to keep them going for awhile longer. We must be punished and put in our place.

I fully expect them to lose many hours in the coming weeks keeping every single thing locked down, because you all have forgotten who really runs this server!

Frankly, I hope velious never comes, or is delayed for a really long time, because I would love to see how long TMO can keep this up.

There are a lot of valid points being made in this thread. This is one, in particular, that I felt needed some reinforcement.

Remember when Rogean delayed Veeshan's Peak from releasing last September because TR/TMO had created such a hostile endgame environment that he felt the players didn't deserve it? http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48145

It'd be unfortunate if this happened with an entire expansion...

That being said, I think a productive discussion of what-if's and sharing of ideas is a good step forward. Topics like these are useful, and can improve communication between players and staff on p99 - whether you agree with the ideas in the OP or not, the baiting comments about dragon handouts and "wellfare raiding" is the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that prevents these threads from growing and providing quality feedback.

[SamwiseBanned]

no idea what this thread is about but hail and well met.

[Adayven]

Just want to start by saying I'm not a member of any raiding guild so I have no dog in this fight at all, but it's something I'm thinking about in the future and I think this affects most of us on the server as open hostility isn't good for anyone.

Why does anyone have to suffer in this at all? The point we're at now in server progression why not just glut the server with raid mobs repop raid zones daily. Who cares if someone's 15th alt ec mule is epic'd? As someone previously stated 90% of gear will be replaced with velious anyway. Not many casual players from live are ever gonna come to p99. We've all had some end game raiding experience. Make it all a non issue. Let guilds work out when they'll kill what mobs, but do so knowing they'll never have wait more than at most a week for said mob.

I don't know how much work a server restart is for the gm staff, but for the player base it seems like a no-brainer unless your only goal is to flex your epeen.

[Silentone]

Just want to start by saying I'm not a member of any raiding guild so I have no dog in this fight at all, but it's something I'm thinking about in the future and I think this affects most of us on the server as open hostility isn't good for anyone.

Why does anyone have to suffer in this at all? The point we're at now in server progression why not just glut the server with raid mobs repop raid zones daily. Who cares if someone's 15th alt ec mule is epic'd? As someone previously stated 90% of gear will be replaced with velious anyway. Not many casual players from live are ever gonna come to p99. We've all had some end game raiding experience. Make it all a non issue. Let guilds work out when they'll kill what mobs, but do so knowing they'll never have wait more than at most a week for said mob.

I don't know how much work a server restart is for the gm staff, but for the player base it seems like a no-brainer unless your only goal is to flex your epeen.

that will keep the people crying happy for about 1 month, till everyone has what they want. Then the server will just die.

[kenzar]

that will keep the people crying happy for about 1 month, till everyone has what they want. Then the server will just die.


nothing lasts forever

[Adayven]

that will keep the people crying happy for about 1 month, till everyone has what they want. Then the server will just die.

People want to play. Most have limited time no reason that having something to do would cause the server to die, but lack of anything to do will kill it for sure. Only so many times you can kill random mob x before you snap your keyboard and throw shit across the room. Everquest was always a game of patience, but no one's patience is inexhaustible.

[Bruman]

Start showing us some damn respect then if you want some back.. geeze... we didnt even fraps and petition your draco kite because we were supposed to be showing you guys some fairness with mobs..

see how far that got us ? lol

Ambrotos was right there for the whole fight and encounter.

And respect is a two-way street. I don't think you have anywhere near the full picture, and are just going off of a one-sided argument.

[Stealin Dragons]

There are a lot of valid points being made in this thread. This is one, in particular, that I felt needed some reinforcement.

Remember when Rogean delayed Veeshan's Peak from releasing last September because TR/TMO had created such a hostile endgame environment that he felt the players didn't deserve it? http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48145

It'd be unfortunate if this happened with an entire expansion...

That being said, I think a productive discussion of what-if's and sharing of ideas is a good step forward. Topics like these are useful, and can improve communication between players and staff on p99 - whether you agree with the ideas in the OP or not, the baiting comments about dragon handouts and "wellfare raiding" is the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that prevents these threads from growing and providing quality feedback.

They delayed VP because it only affected TMO and IB.

[Quizy]

Ambrotos was right there for the whole fight and encounter.

And respect is a two-way street. I don't think you have anywhere near the full picture, and are just going off of a one-sided argument.

im talking about when your bard was kiting draco for 4-5 minutes while my self, jjlent, reptak and silentone followed him around waiting to decide if we were gonna pull it off him since he was kiting a raid mob...

I saw the whole picture because i was the first person to zone into fear before the 2 bards that came into kite..

Yeah respect is a two way street.. but you want something from us and MOST of you guys have shown us the same kinda respect IB did.. a slap in the face

[falkun]

im talking about when your bard was kiting draco for 4-5 minutes while my self, jjlent, reptak and silentone followed him around waiting to decide if we were gonna pull it off him since he was kiting a raid mob...

I haven't been able to find it, but I was under the impression that Draco was the only raid mob you could kite, simply because everyone kited fear for Draco/CT. It was always the REST of the raid mobs (Tal, Sev, Gore, Fayd, Inny, etc.) that you were not allowed to kite. If I recall, the very last raid VD did was an attempt at Draco where Fauss was kiting (including Draco), VD tagged Draco out from Fauss' kite and Fauss dropped his kite (via L60 bard DA and/or CoH).

Either way, its a moot point now that you are not allowed to kite Fear for anything other than an AE pull.

Yeah respect is a two way street.. but you want something from us and MOST of you guys have shown us the same kinda respect IB did.. a slap in the face

I've seen/heard of dick-head and admirable acts from both view-points, whether they are accurate or not. There's the sky fiasco, Draco, Inny, Gore (giving BDA attempt2.0 after she warped under world), and probably others I'm missing. I'd say the larger issue, as a BDA member, is I don't know which TMO is going to show up for competition on any given day, "cutthroat bitch" (for all you House fans) or the friendly one. For that reason, I personally feel I have to treat TMO as "cutthroat bitch" all the time and be pleasantly surprised when I see the other side.

[Arclanz]

the only way to get ahead on these kinds of serves is to step on everyone who gets in your way.

/agree

Variance shmariance... Launch a new blue server. Or push the ghey-mans-pvp players, who just luuuuv to race to content, to Red99. If you want to PvP, man-up and do it; don't kakblock others then hide behind your blue tag.

<img src="http://www.whitewolfbrigade.com/images/ethug.jpg"/>

Some other relevant/funny images.

<img src="http://www.whitewolfbrigade.com/images/powerleveling.jpg"/>

<img src="http://www.whitewolfbrigade.com/images/unemployment.jpg"/>

[Xadion]

I haven't been able to find it, but I was under the impression that Draco was the only raid mob you could kite, simply because everyone kited fear for Draco/CT. It was always the REST of the raid mobs (Tal, Sev, Gore, Fayd, Inny, etc.) that you were not allowed to kite. If I recall, the very last raid VD did was an attempt at Draco where Fauss was kiting (including Draco), VD tagged Draco out from Fauss' kite and Fauss dropped his kite (via L60 bard DA and/or CoH).

Either way, its a moot point now that you are not allowed to kite Fear for anything other than an AE pull.



I've seen/heard of dick-head and admirable acts from both view-points, whether they are accurate or not. There's the sky fiasco, Draco, Inny, Gore (giving BDA attempt2.0 after she warped under world), and probably others I'm missing. I'd say the larger issue, as a BDA member, is I don't know which TMO is going to show up for competition on any given day, "cutthroat bitch" (for all you House fans) or the friendly one. For that reason, I personally feel I have to treat TMO as "cutthroat bitch" all the time and be pleasantly surprised when I see the other side.


as for kiting draco .... Read the rule, all raid mobs... Once you tag/agro a raid mob it must be taken directly in route to the raid that has intent to kill it, and that is exactly what we do...now during that pull draco is able to be separated and he is not taken away from heading directly to the camp, then the train of other mobs can be taken away... All the time the raid mob from tag to engage is a beeline to the raid. To claim you and your raid leader and puppets didn't know this rule is lol

[Arclanz]

These images cracked me up. Edited my post.

[Lazortag]

Maestro of Rancor has a +/- 24 hour variance. This means a person tracking him for his entire window could spend up to 48 hours waiting for him to spawn (just for the chance at being the first to engage and kill him), and on average will wait 24 hours. In classic Maestro did not have variance.

Is it because he's considered a raid mob? It's no secret that Maestro is consistently killed on this server with less than a group of people. He's really no harder than Phinny (12 hour spawn, no variance), or the tangrin (3 day spawn, no variance).

Is it because he's needed for the warrior epic? The tangrin, phinny, wraith of a shissir (3 day spawn, no variance), and ishva mal (36 hour spawn, no variance) are all used for different epics, and none of them have a variance.

Is it because of the length of his spawn time? See above - this obviously doesn't apply to wraith of a shissir or tangrin who have the exact same spawn time and no variance.

I think the variance on maestro is an outdated policy from when there were only 6 raid mobs on this server, and it was assumed it would take an entire raid force to kill him. Now we have at least 13 raid mobs not including VP or Sky mobs, and maestro is frequently killed with less than a group. It's no secret that variances make it easier for certain guilds to monopolize mobs, because it lessens the chance of mobs spawning simultaneously, and increases the chance of mobs spawning at times when casual players aren't going to be awake. This isn't to say that Maestro is impossible for casuals to get in the post-epic era, but that the vast majority of kills on him are by larger, more hardcore guilds with players who can be on during all times of the day.

Because maestro is easier to monopolize by hardcore guilds, people are going to continue farming him after all of their guild's warriors need it so they can sell the MQ. Currently someone is selling a hand of the maestro MQ for over 200k, while the vast majority of guilds capable of killing maestro have only a handful of warrior epics. In classic this would have never happened. I'm not trying to criticize the seller of the MQ, but if this becomes a pattern (people farming maestro just so they can sell the MQ at inflated prices) it could be very harmful for the server. So for these reasons I think the variance on maestro should be completely removed.

PS: please don't interpret this as an attack on anyone or any guild! I'm just suggesting what I think is best for the server.

[Adrieth]

Not speaking for BDA here, just my own personal view.

I think removing the variance would actually make it harder for other guilds to get -- especially considering you can down him with 2-3 groups easily. Variance guarantees that some guilds could get caught off guard, or be chasing another raid target when he spawns. If the spawn was static, I guarantee he'd be monopolized, camped, and FTE battled every single time.

That said, I really don't see BDA specifically attempting to monopolize it after we finish gearing up our core group. In fact, I'd love to see this mob go on rotation (worked so well for Ragefire). Again, my personal view only, does not necessarily reflect that of the guild.

[Lazortag]

Not speaking for BDA here, just my own personal view.

I think removing the variance would actually make it harder for other guilds to get. Variance guarantees that some guilds could get caught off guard, or be chasing another raid target when he spawns. If the spawn was static, I guarantee he'd be monopolized, camped, and FTE battled every single time.

Something can still be spawning at the same time as maestro if he's not on variance. Also, nothing you said was true of the other 3 day epic spawns without variance. I'm really not convinced that guilds would FTE battle it every time when this doesn't happen consistently with mobs like noble dojorn, wraith of a shissir, tangrin, etc. I think they would see the futility of it and work something out.
(Moreover, I'd rather FTE battle for maestro than have him spawn at 3AM)

[Adrieth]

I'm really not convinced that guilds would FTE battle it every time when this doesn't happen consistently with mobs like noble dojorn, wraith of a shissir, tangrin, etc. I think they would see the futility of it and work something out.

A little true down the road, yeah, but not right now. And the other challenge obviously being the hand doesn't drop 100% of the time. Still, my post was really to outline the point that I just don't see any guild monopolizing him past getting themselves geared. That, and I think he'd do the server good on a rotation (even with the lessened chance for a hand).

[Autotune]

Something can still be spawning at the same time as maestro if he's not on variance. Also, nothing you said was true of the other 3 day epic spawns without variance. I'm really not convinced that guilds would FTE battle it every time when this doesn't happen consistently with mobs like noble dojorn, wraith of a shissir, tangrin, etc. I think they would see the futility of it and work something out.
(Moreover, I'd rather FTE battle for maestro than have him spawn at 3AM)

It would get FTE'd every single time. You should know this.

You've already stated you know it can be killed with a group of people (or less).

All a guild would have to do is send a group or 2 and wait, it wouldn't matter if something else spawned, they could still mobilize for that spawn and still have people at maestro for when he spawns.

I don't think removing the variance on this one mob will do what you want it to.

[Lazortag]

It would get FTE'd every single time. You should know this.


I'm really not convinced that guilds would FTE battle it every time when this doesn't happen consistently with mobs like noble dojorn, wraith of a shissir, tangrin, etc.

(Moreover, I'd rather FTE battle for maestro than have him spawn at 3AM)

I would prefer a 50% chance of getting maestro to a 50% chance of him spawning at a time when no one is going to be awake. Moreover, there'd be no incentive to FTE him every time because almost everyone in the top guilds has a warrior epic already. It's getting to the point where people are farming maestro just to sell the MQ. If more people have access to maestro, the value of the MQ is lowered, and there's less reason to farm it for plat.

Maestro didn't have a variance in classic, do you really think it led to the problems you're talking about, even months after epics were released?
edit: also I think spending a bit of time battling for FTE is superior to having to track him for 48 hours straight

[Nirgon]

Variance not classic

How's that for your argument

I'd rather things spawned at normal human being hours (hey like on live!) than being the jobless wonder competition

[Writ3r]

I would also make this implement with no variance on Draco as well, it seems more often than not (moreso recently) these variance mobs are spawning at set time intervals mostly in the wee hours of the morning U.S. (mid-day European) time while prime time for other foreigners. Granted it is good for everyone to see mobs in all time zones, but let's be honest the majority of the population is Europe/North American so for there to be a more realistic shot for everyone i don't see why they wouldn't be reduced or just completely done away with for these two encounters especially.

With Draco it is common knowledge that the loot table isn't all that stellar so i don't see what all the fuss would be to take out his variance or reduce it significantly... much as like the Maestro topic here (excluding the epic piece on Maestro, makes more sense as well to change Draco).

As mentioned more than enough times the word "competition" gets brought up... realistically how much competition is there at 3-8 a.m. EST (sleep hours) and/or Mid-day (normal work hours) as oppose to what there would be prime-time every time a mob spawned?

More guilds, more bodies, and more encounters = more competition or even just more fun... in my opinion.

[SirAlvarex]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the non-varianced mobs aren't as highly contested. The fact that a tracker has to sit for +/- 24 hours to get a mob puts people on edge, and causes anger when the trackers guild can't get mobilized fast enough. If variance is removed, we'll probably see rotations and "we'll let someone else kill it" more often.

I think removing variance would help the GMs/guides more, as I think it'll lead to fewer sh*t fights.

And if it doesn't, just flip the variable and re-variance'em all. Couldn't hurt to see how it works, would it?

[Volibear]

Agree with removing the variance. It seems a little silly

[Auvdar]

We have a "Get rid of the variance" thread once a week it seems... I wonder if that is a hint.:rolleyes:

[sanluen]

Moreover, there'd be no incentive to FTE him every time because almost everyone in the top guilds has a warrior epic already. It's getting to the point where people are farming maestro just to sell the MQ. If more people have access to maestro, the value of the MQ is lowered, and there's less reason to farm it for plat.

There are still plenty of active mains who need their hand of maestro. He also isn't purely an 'epic mob' and does have other loot. Granted it all sucks, but the same can be said for Draco and the BCG. This could also be extended to Innoruuk, he has 2 useful drops and a bunch of crap - why put him on variance?

In the end I would love to see maestro's variance removed, and the variance of other mobs lessened or removed, but I don't think maestro is a particularly unique case and any changes should also include other mobs of similar difficulty / importance.

[Lazortag]

There are still plenty of active mains who need their hand of maestro. He also isn't purely an 'epic mob' and does have other loot. Granted it all sucks, but the same can be said for Draco and the BCG. This could also be extended to Innoruuk, he has 2 useful drops and a bunch of crap - why put him on variance?

In the end I would love to see maestro's variance removed, and the variance of other mobs lessened or removed, but I don't think maestro is a particularly unique case and any changes should also include other mobs of similar difficulty / importance.

I'm not crazy about the variance on any mob if it isn't classic (Ragefire and Verina can still have variances because that's classic). But I mentioned maestro because I felt an analogy could be made to wraith, tangrin, and other epic mobs that have no variance yet have the same spawn timer.

I agree with a previous poster who basically said that if you give something variance because it's too contested, then you make it a self-fulfilling prophecy that it will be more contested. Virtually the only varianced mob that isn't killed within minutes of spawning is Master Yael, and that's because none of his loot is best in slot, and he drops no epic items.

[falkun]

It'd be easier to farm for MQ if he's not on variance than if he is. Just playing devil's advocate. He's still considered a "raid mob" even if he takes <1 group to kill, so it'd be an FTE race, even if you were the original force on his spawn (not that I'm arguing against server rules, merely what can be done with the status quo).

[Silentone]

I thought that if you can kill a mob with 1 group you can camp it, isnt this the case with tangrin? meaning you could sit on maestro and claim that mob if variance was removed. I am not talking about 15 man rule just normal camp rules.

[Lazortag]

It'd be easier to farm for MQ if he's not on variance than if he is. Just playing devil's advocate. He's still considered a "raid mob" even if he takes <1 group to kill, so it'd be an FTE race, even if you were the original force on his spawn (not that I'm arguing against server rules, merely what can be done with the status quo).

No one is farming the tangrin or wraith of a shissir for loot rights. No one is farming these mobs because they know there isn't a market for the loot of a mob that doesn't have a high chance of spawning in the morning when most players are asleep. Empirically the problem you mention didn't exist in classic when there was no variance, I'm not sure why anyone expects it to happen here. It's easier to monopolize a mob when its spawn time is uncertain, and I think this is proven clearly by the last few years of raiding on this server.

I thought that if you can kill a mob with 1 group you can camp it, isnt this the case with tangrin? meaning you could sit on maestro and claim that mob if variance was removed. I am not talking about 15 man rule just normal camp rules.

Sure. Why would this be a bad thing? When epics were first released we had to camp the tangrin for a while for one of our members' epics, because it was more contested then. It opens up the spawn to other people unless you have someone literally sitting on the spawn forever, which I think would be ridiculous even for this server's playerbase.

[Silentone]

yep, I'm saying it wont be a FTE thing like people are saying.

[Writ3r]

According to Sirken, if it is a raid mob it is FTE regardless you can't "camp" anything and even if you are the first ones clearing that "camp location" you have no claim as anyone can leapfrog you for FTE and be justified.

So if you so choose to clear first and sit on the spawn point, be prepared to have just made it easier for someone else to out FTE you as that is what the raid rules say determines the "winner" being FTE > all.

[falkun]

I didn't think players could arbitrarily decide if mobs are "raid mobs" or not, Silentone. Until we can, I have to go by the impression that Maestro is a raid mob, because that's what CSR has stated publicly and that is the modus operandi guilds will follow on this server.

Following that decision, if a group has been at Maestro's spawn since 6:23PM waiting at Maestro for him to spawn at 7:43PM and another group shows up at 7:42PM, it's an FTE race. If Maestro is no longer a "raid mob", the impending problem is non-existent, otherwise the server is back at square one.

No one farms Tangrin or Wrath of Shissar because the Enchanter epic is almost entirely combines. The two drops you are referring to are part of one such combine. The enchanter epic is almost impossible to MQ due to this fact. Its a lot easier to MQ trak guts or hand of the maestro, which are components in multi-item turn-ins.

Look, I'm all for reducing variance, but I'm not sure this would have the consequences you desire Giegue. I'm just trying to get you to view this from another angle.

[Lazortag]

No one farms Tangrin or Wrath of Shissar because the Enchanter epic is almost entirely combines. The two drops you are referring to are part of one such combine. The enchanter epic is almost impossible to MQ due to this fact. Its a lot easier to MQ trak guts or hand of the maestro, which are components in multi-item turn-ins.

Sure you can't MQ it, but you can still sell the loot rights. I feel like no one does this because it just wouldn't be profitable due to the accessibility of these mobs, which is mostly because they have no variance.

I'm not sure maestro should be considered a raid mob at all, just because he's so trivial, but that's just my opinion.

Should Phinny have a variance? He can drop MQ's for several epics, all of which are fairly rare. Are we concerned that phinny not having a variance screws over casual players?

Like I said before, we can all speculate about what would happen, but in the end the only evidence we have is (a) what happens with similar mobs on this server, and (b) what happened with maestro on classic when he had no variance, and in neither case does the doomsday scenario of maestro being camped 24/7 happen.

[falkun]

Loot rights expire in 30 minutes (assuming they aren't on 7 minute corpse timers). Unless you have an enchanter with no friends who "hires" your group/guild to kill Tangrin/Wrath for him, good luck getting a buyer to fork over 200k and get to the corpse in 30 minutes. But that just screams RMT because high level enchanters all have a solid group of friends that would help them get their epic (if only to make their group better), or a guild that would do the same.

If you want to argue for Maestro to not be a raid mob, I can see that argument. But as I've already stated, I cannot act in that manner until the rest of the server is forced to also act in that manner (acting in good faith in 46+ raid zones often gets you burned on P99).

Phinny is also a 12hr respawn, 1/6th the time of Maestro's three days. There will be approximately 12 Phinny corpses between each Maestro, making his loot 12x as common. I will agree that invising down to Phinny and killing him is only slightly less risky/difficult than getting up to Maestro and killing him.

[Autotune]

You take maestro's variance away and this is what will happen.

The spawn time will spread across every guild that can take him down (pretty much every guild with 10 or more 60s/high 50s

You won't have a 50% shot of fte, it will be more around 25% or less.

You will have guilds finally showing up who probably couldn't kill maestro, just to hope to snag fte and have the mass of people burn him down.

It will only get worse as every guild with any warriors will want their free hand/loot because all they will have to do is wait a few minutes and hope to get FTE.


Taking just maestro's variance won't solve anything. You need to remove all of them at the same time and do it on a repop.

[Tasslehofp99]

Post wont matter once velious comes out. Then all the non BDA/TMO + Enraptured can get their epic as well without all the pissing and moaning.

[quido]

without all the pissing and moaning.

I'm glad to hear you're going to stop whining about your poor footing in this virtual world.

[Alarti0001]

Post wont matter once velious comes out. Then all the non BDA/TMO + Enraptured can get their epic as well without all the pissing and moaning.

speaking of velious where is it !?

[Danyelle]

speaking of velious where is it !?

Somewhere off the southern coast of Antonica to the west of Kunark in the middle of the ocean. It's the large tundra landmass with the canyons.

[Tasslehofp99]

I'm glad to hear you're going to stop whining about your poor footing in this virtual world.

lol, my footing is fine for me man. I've got a job and I am a full time student currently in my 2nd year of college and I've got best in slot everything except 3 peices, one of which I wont see without joining TMO (crown of rile). I've no need to lower myself to the standards of joining TMO to get pixels cause im such a boss I get them on my own. Matter of fact I think there is like 2 druids in TMO with better gear then me overall. But sure go ahead and talk shiz; I know TMO wishes I would apply to their guild so I could show their druids how to really play. ;)


But seriously, the spawn variance on this server isn't the problem. I dont think removing variance on mobs would help other less hardcore guilds get mobs unless they also reset the server every 2-3 weeks at random times (artificial patch days) to reset mobs timers all together. I mean shit the server is down almost daily anyway...:confused:

[Fazlazen]

If it wasnt for tmo, every single player on the server would have a crown of rile. Tmo is ruining my experience !

[JenJen]

breaking botb news: tasslefhof says he will win botb guaranteed

[Tasslehofp99]

breaking botb news: tasslefhof says he will win botb guaranteed

lolz

[Tarathiel]

is it really still needed?

[falkun]

Abstaining.

Totally removing variance would put us right back to where we were a month ago with two equally capable raid forces sitting on spawn waiting for the God to bequeath a lucky FTE-er with pixels.

Massive variance favors those who can log on 24/7/365 at the drop of a hat. The majority of the server, with a 40hr job, possibly a significant other and a social life will lose to those with more spare time, or those "majority" people who have a lot of friends with more spare time.

I do believe 48hr variance is absurd, but could be sold on 12-24hr (for 7-day spawns, shortening the window for 3-day spawns proportionately).

[quido]

Not that I really mind it how it is, but I think chopping the windows in half would prove to be a nice improvement for everybody.

[Tarathiel]

Abstaining.



I do believe 48hr variance is absurd, but could be sold on 12-24hr (for 7-day spawns, shortening the window for 3-day spawns proportionately).

i should have made an option for something like this, hindsight is a mofo

[Picked]

For those of us who are fairly new to the scene...please elaborate.

[falkun]

PS: This has been discussed ad nausem.
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=77198
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74129
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74391
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65632

[Frieza_Prexus]

In addition, a 4th option, simulated patch day would be nice. Pre-announced patches and the occasional surprise reset would be great. Announced patches would allow guilds to plan ahead, unannounced patches would actually open up shots at mobs like VS and trak when the top guilds are caught unawares.

[kbnexus]

5th option release velious and then remove variance.

Non-Classic is no longer applicable if this was classic we would be in what? PoP by now?

[Tarathiel]

Not that I really mind it how it is, but I think chopping the windows in half would prove to be a nice improvement for everybody.

maybe just chop the whole damn timer in half, but keep the variance unchanged. ex. Faydedar 3 day (+/- 48 hrs)
Trakanon 1 day (+/- 24 hrs)

i would be interested to see some hard numbers on the average amount of mob spawning each week, with high lvl population being as large as it is, it would make sense to have more mobs spawning than less.

[Picked]

I voted no. It's not hard to get the spawn if you want it bad enough.

[Tarathiel]

I voted no. It's not hard to get the spawn if you want it bad enough.

you really are new here huh?

=p

[Tecmos Deception]

maybe just chop the whole damn timer in half, but keep the variance unchanged. ex. Faydedar 3 day (+/- 48 hrs)
Trakanon 1 day (+/- 24 hrs)

i would be interested to see some hard numbers on the average amount of mob spawning each week, with high lvl population being as large as it is, it would make sense to have more mobs spawning than less.

I think this would result in a lot of people burning out trying to track all that stuff and then quitting p99... lol.

[Tarathiel]

I think this would result in a lot of people burning out trying to track all that stuff and then quitting p99... lol.

lol u think that would be worse than having fay go to the end of her window? which right now equals about 96 hours of tracking time if you plan on getting the kill.

[Lazortag]

There is absolutely no good reason for a window to be more than 24 hours long. Euros/non-westerners have just as good of a shot at getting a mob with a 24 hour window as they do any other multiple of 24. I still can't believe this hasn't been changed, 96 hour windows are ridiculous.

[Tecmos Deception]

lol u think that would be worse than having fay go to the end of her window? which right now equals about 96 hours of tracking time if you plan on getting the kill.

maybe just chop the whole damn timer in half, but keep the variance unchanged. ex. Faydedar 3 day (+/- 48 hrs)
Trakanon 1 day (+/- 24 hrs)

What are you lolling about? It was your idea to have more windows without making them smaller. Your idea still has 96-hour fay windows, but it has MORE of them over time.

Trakanon would ALWAYS be in window with your idea. You'd have to track him 24/7/365.

[Tarathiel]

What are you lolling about? It was your idea to have more windows without making them smaller. Your idea still has 96-hour fay windows, but it has MORE of them over time.

Trakanon would ALWAYS be in window with your idea. You'd have to track him 24/7/365.

ya but it would equal more mobs spawning over all, which would mean the trackers would be seeing the fruits of their labor more often. i think reduction in either spawn time or variance would reduce burn out

::edit:: my preferred option is to restore spawn times to classic variance, its not like the current situation is stopping poop-socking which is what i think it was designed to do, i was merely discussing alternatives

[Nirgon]

12-24 hours but don't have shit spawning during US prime time.

Are there even any Euro guilds large enough to merit that?

Lots of shit is going to spawn 6am-5pm and people are at work.

If you want competition, have it spawn when there's competition to be had.

It's not "competitive" for Obama-Care recipients, people that had their foot run over by a mail truck or the otherwise unemployed to monopolize shit. (Okay maybe you're in college / work from me, don't jump down my shit I'm trying to make a point)

The kills I hear about happening most are during low population times. What's competitive about that?

[Nizzarr]

Whats the competition when you got 150 people sitting on top of a timed spawn?

[Tarathiel]

Whats the competition when you got 150 people sitting on top of a timed spawn?

this happens with current variance, the only difference is it happens less often. namely because only one guild has the resources to keep up with these insanely long spawn times. so where is the competition with that?

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Taking away variance would increase poopsocking but at the same time if everything boils down to a lucky FTE in the end maybe the big guilds would finally agree to a rotation. Something needs to change though, the raid scene here is pretty messed up.

[Picked]

you really are new here huh?

=p

Been here a few months. Really doesn't take a lot of experience and knowledge to understand the scene though. TMO owns the raid mobs. If you want the raid mobs be dedicated enough to sit on the spawn with a raid force, that's all I'm saying.

Awhile back my guild was killing in PoFear, Draco popped while we were there. We had enough time to get a solid attempt on him, and had we had the proper raid force for him would have been a kill. We wiped because we only had one cleric there, had we had 2 and maybe even with epics a second shot at him might have been possible. Nevertheless TMO moved in and killed Draco. Was very kind about the whole situation and even gave us a shot at a couple of his loots.

The problem is you sit a tracker in zone and try and compete with TMO you are putting yourself at the mercy of a guild that has a huge advantage of resources. If you want Naggy I suggest being in Solb near or around the time he spawns, and being ready to engage on pop. Sure that is a lot of time wasted, but how much time is wasted forming for a mob that you get beat out of 3 or 4 times before you finally get a kill? Or how much time is wasted on petitions and everything else during that process. Flaming mad posts, RnF discussions.

[falkun]

Picked, I am glad you and your guild had a positive experience with TMO, but please do not assume TMO treats all raid targets equal or all guild competition with equal cordiality. I assume you are referring to this incident?

Hey just because we're not handing Sev engages to BDA and Divinity (guilds that have killed him) doesn't mean we wouldn't for someone like Full Circle or whoever. Recently at a draco we saw Full Circle was in a clear PoF and instead of sending our bards to go tag the thing, we gave them 5 or 10 minutes to get an attempt. I'm not promising anyone anything, but if you're some guild that hasn't killed one of these lower priority targets before, I think most people would be behind giving you an attempt. When you demonstrate that you can kill it, though, is when we cease with the leeway. I think that's fair enough.

With that aside, I still feel this pole is biased with "good decision" and "bad decision", and also doesn't offer the middle ground alternatives that have been discussed (which I've already linked).

[Tarathiel]

The problem is you sit a tracker in zone and try and compete with TMO you are putting yourself at the mercy of a guild that has a huge advantage of resources. If you want Naggy I suggest being in Solb near or around the time he spawns, and being ready to engage on pop. Sure that is a lot of time wasted, but how much time is wasted forming for a mob that you get beat out of 3 or 4 times before you finally get a kill? Or how much time is wasted on petitions and everything else during that process. Flaming mad posts, RnF discussions.

dude you are missing the point of this thread, we all know how to track and kill mobs and what it takes to compete against tmo. this is NOT a " lets whine about tmo" thread. you are absolutely correct, if a guild wants a mob they have to track it and place the force there to engage it. the point of this thread is to discuss whether doing this for 96 hours per mob is still necessary

[Tarathiel]

With that aside, I still feel this pole is biased with "good decision" and "bad decision", and also doesn't offer the middle ground alternatives that have been discussed (which I've already linked).

ya im still kicking myself in the ass for not adding a 3rd option, i tried to edit the poll but i guess its too late =(

[falkun]

ya im still kicking myself in the ass for not adding a 3rd option, i tried to edit the poll but i guess its too late =(

IMO this server would benefit from shorter variances, and FTE shouts. Do need to resolve how FTE shouts can be abused any more than FTE disputes. But those ideas have both been thoroughly vetted in the aformentioned threads.

http://www.captainsim.org/yabbfiles/Attachments/Beating_A_Dead_Horse.gif

[falkun]

Caugh... No variance in red.

No FTE disputes: beat competition, beat mob while they CR. If only more folks wanting "competition" realized there's PVP for that. PVE is for cooperation.

[kbnexus]

Caugh... No variance in red.

Cough... No players on red.

[kbnexus]

dude you are missing the point of this thread, we all know how to track and kill mobs and what it takes to compete against tmo. this is NOT a " lets whine about tmo" thread. you are absolutely correct, if a guild wants a mob they have to track it and place the force there to engage it. the point of this thread is to discuss whether doing this for 96 hours per mob is still necessary

variance sucks.... Knowing spawn times so 200 people can all poop sock is worse.

[Picked]

Picked, I am glad you and your guild had a positive experience with TMO, but please do not assume TMO treats all raid targets equal or all guild competition with equal cordiality. I assume you are referring to this incident?


Yes that is the incident. And TMO wouldn't have had a choice in the matter had we had the force there to kill it. We had already engaged and wiped to Draco before there was even a TMO in the zone, (other than the tracker that was there before the pop of course) while we were recovering from the first wipe is when TMO started to show outside. Had we had a little more umph we would have got the kill without any interference at all. And I'm sure if a guild became competitive with TMO on stuff they wouldn't be this lenient. I'm just saying that there are options to getting named targets if you are truly willing to go the extra mile.

dude you are missing the point of this thread, we all know how to track and kill mobs and what it takes to compete against tmo. this is NOT a " lets whine about tmo" thread. you are absolutely correct, if a guild wants a mob they have to track it and place the force there to engage it. the point of this thread is to discuss whether doing this for 96 hours per mob is still necessary

Ya I guess I did miss the point. I was under the impression that you were wanting the variance of mob spawns to be further apart giving more time between mob spawns so that sitting on top of a spawn would be rather fruitless. I am sorry for the confusion.

[Lazortag]

variance sucks.... Knowing spawn times so 200 people can all poop sock is worse.

So then make the variance smaller instead of reducing it to zero. Why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

variance sucks.... Knowing spawn times so 200 people can all poop sock is worse.

But if we all poopsocked every mob together it would maybe force some much need cooperation into this poor server. Take away variance imo. Sure TMO will still win alot but it would be alot easier for other guilds to get in there and try to claim FTE is 96 hours of tracking wasn't involved.

[Lostprophets]

IB left the server, it was their variance to begin with (nobody else wanted it way back when). I say it's time to let it go.

However, if we remove the variance we should put the Rotation back (at least on some of the dragons/gods), and learn to share. I think it's time we all act like adults and realize that this is a 13 year old game, people come back to it on P99 to relive some fun. Not get 3am bat phone calls like they did back in '99, or get grieved by other guilds.

[Ferok]

Uh, yeah there are.

Which is why you're trolling every thread you can find begging more people to play on red.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

IB left the server, it was their variance to begin with (nobody else wanted it way back when). I say it's time to let it go.

However, if we remove the variance we should put the Rotation back (at least on some of the dragons/gods), and learn to share. I think it's time we all act like adults and realize that this is a 13 year old game, people come back to it on P99 to relive some fun. Not get 3am bat phone calls like they did back in '99, or get grieved by other guilds.

Couldn't agree with you more.

[Haul]

There is absolutely no good reason for a window to be more than 24 hours long. Euros/non-westerners have just as good of a shot at getting a mob with a 24 hour window as they do any other multiple of 24. I still can't believe this hasn't been changed, 96 hour windows are ridiculous.

agreed for once :cool:

[Haul]

also if variance is removed there has to be a rotation or server will turn to shit

[Nordenwatch]

There will never be a rotation while a guild is on top.

[arsenalpow]

There will never be a rotation while a guild is on top.

except that time TMO had a week off and BDA promoted a modified server rotation.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

But that's the point. TMO can't be on top anymore if variance is taken away. Or well maybe they can but with tons of people sitting on a targets spawn point when its about to spawn its a complete toss up. TMO will start to lose targets.

[Tarathiel]

this is not about this guild or that guild, its about variance

GO!

[Lostprophets]

this is not about this guild or that guild, its about variance and rotations!

GO!

ftfy :p

[Tarathiel]

ftfy :p

shhhh dont wake the dragon!

[mwatt]

I think these special mobs should just be made to spawn more frequently, i.e. reduce the window size, but make the spawn time variable within the windows.

[Tecmos Deception]

I think these special mobs should just be made to spawn more frequently, i.e. reduce the window size, but make the spawn time variable within the windows.

Reducing window size does not make mobs spawn more frequently.

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

Reducing window size does not make mobs spawn more frequently.

http://i.imgur.com/FmfSc.png

[Autotune]

Reducing window size does not make mobs spawn more frequently.http://i.imgur.com/FmfSc.png

You do know he is (basically) right, yeah? Mobs won't be able to spawn any later in their windows, but they won't be able to spawn any sooner as well. The mobs will spawn at the same average rate that they have been (pretty much)

[Vandy]

I like the system the sleeper server has. Each guild with capable force has the ability to spawn 2 raid mobs per week. Everything else spawns according to timers and is FTE. That server is in SoV so maybe in Kunark 1 raid mob spawn per week. But then that brings up the issue with people forming guilds with the 300 alts they have purchased to get more triggered spawns. Pros and Cons to every system I guess.

[Tecmos Deception]

I like the system the sleeper server has. Each guild with capable force has the ability to spawn 2 raid mobs per week. Everything else spawns according to timers and is FTE. That server is in SoV so maybe in Kunark 1 raid mob spawn per week. But then that brings up the issue with people forming guilds with the 300 alts they have purchased to get more triggered spawns. Pros and Cons to every system I guess.

That doesn't seem bad.

I wonder how guilds would pick their 1-2 spawned bosses every week, though. Maybe you'd try for an inny/ct/fay epic piece here or there or something... but wouldn't the vast, vast majority of guilds just kill trak or maybe vs every week?

[Lazortag]

I like the system the sleeper server has. Each guild with capable force has the ability to spawn 2 raid mobs per week. Everything else spawns according to timers and is FTE. That server is in SoV so maybe in Kunark 1 raid mob spawn per week. But then that brings up the issue with people forming guilds with the 300 alts they have purchased to get more triggered spawns. Pros and Cons to every system I guess.

Let's stick to the simple, classic solutions before we look at the complicated non-classic ones.

[happyhappy]

Simultaneous repop on a weeklyish simulated patch day with a complete server shut down and removal of variance is pretty much as classic as it can get.

[Nirgon]

Would be an insane number of cloak of flames and shit

[Hailto]

Nice unbiased wording on the poll, lol.

[Tarathiel]

isnt there enough inflated high end gear floating around allready?

ya i saw those ct and trak epic pieces in EC too, way too expensive for my budget. i think ill just try to camp them myself

[xarzzardorn]

i think that the variance should stay!

[mwatt]

Reducing window size does not make mobs spawn more frequently.

Since window size results garuanteed spawn, smaller windows sizes will have the result of causing mobs to spawn more frequently.

For example, if window size were one hour and two hours passed, there would be two spawns. However, if window size were two hours and two hours passes, there would be one spawn.

[falkun]

Since window size results garuanteed spawn, smaller windows sizes will have the result of causing mobs to spawn more frequently.

For example, if window size were one hour and two hours passed, there would be two spawns. However, if window size were two hours and two hours passes, there would be one spawn.

If the spawn timer (7days +/- 48 hours) is shrunk to 7days +/-12 hours, the mob should still spawn, on average, once per week. All the spawns at the beginning of the window (5days after initial spawn) that would statistically decrease the spawn time are offset by instances where the mob waits until the end of the window (9days after initial spawn) to spawn. The average will be the same, but trackers (and possibly raid forces for high priority targets) will get back 72 hours of their lives or have to devote 72 hours less to poopsocking and/or camping out at specific locations.

The goal of allowing the mob to spawn during any time of day (so you are not catering to any particular time zone) would still be achieved.

[kbnexus]

looks like you guys are still pushing for a rotation.

[falkun]

looks like you guys are still pushing for a rotation.
We are trying to maintain interest by gearing alts and continuing to gear mains and new players while we wait... FOREVER for Velious.
Looks like you guys are still pushing for a Velious.

[Tecmos Deception]

For example, if window size were one hour and two hours passed, there would be two spawns. However, if window size were two hours and two hours passes, there would be one spawn.

I love how people are posting in a thread about variance without having any remote fucking clue what a "window" is.

[diplo]

seems like every one of these pop every month....just read the old threads, brew. same ish diff toilet.

[Nizzarr]

So whos GM'ing for blue again?

He should be the one taking this decision.

Like any other decision in life, you gotta weight in the good and the bad.

As far as workload is concerned, variance helps a GMs life a lot. He doesnt have to deal with FTE log search as much, as about a thousand less petition to deal with "THEY TOOK MAH MERBS" kind of useless petition.

With no variance, he will have to look at every single FTE engage. Dealing with little children petitioning about who hit that first, on every single mob.

The only way this could be made bearable is that he doesnt give a flying fuck about who engaged first and whoever get the exp yellow message get loots.

He could also make the zone PVP one hour before and after a raid mob is about to spawn.

Or you can come to the superior server, which is the red server. There's no variance here, the best gets the lewts.

Anything else is a nightmare.

[Lazortag]

So whos GM'ing for blue again?

He should be the one taking this decision.

Like any other decision in life, you gotta weight in the good and the bad.

As far as workload is concerned, variance helps a GMs life a lot. He doesnt have to deal with FTE log search as much, as about a thousand less petition to deal with "THEY TOOK MAH MERBS" kind of useless petition.

With no variance, he will have to look at every single FTE engage. Dealing with little children petitioning about who hit that first, on every single mob.

The only way this could be made bearable is that he doesnt give a flying fuck about who engaged first and whoever get the exp yellow message get loots.

He could also make the zone PVP one hour before and after a raid mob is about to spawn.

Or you can come to the superior server, which is the red server. There's no variance here, the best gets the lewts.

Anything else is a nightmare.

So then make the variance smaller instead of getting rid of it altogether. Is there a rule that whenever one of these threads pops up that the smart ideas aren't allowed to receive any mention?

As for minimizing GM involvement, more simultaneous repops would accomplish that. On Live there were repops on average once every 1-2 weeks, here we often go for months without patches.

[Nizzarr]

may as well spawns npc that you hail and the raid mobs spawns and you can kill it until you're fully geared from it.

[Spitty]

Variance is the only reason I'm not in a raiding guild on this server.

It's a weak, hands-off approach to dealing with the immaturity of the raiding population on p99. Beta management.

[falkun]

may as well spawns npc that you hail and the raid mobs spawns and you can kill it until you're fully geared from it.
I've already commented on the PVP vs. PVE server debate:
No FTE disputes: beat competition, beat mob while they CR. If only more folks wanting "competition" realized there's PVP for that. PVE is for cooperation.

PVE is for real persons to cooperate to beat. It may be stupidly easy to beat, but that's the computer/AI fault, not the persons playing. PVP is for real persons to fight real persons. Trying to force real person competition without allowing us to bash each other to our spawn points is like trying to shove a square pin into a round hole.

[kbnexus]

Looks like you guys are still pushing for a Velious.

uh yea.... you should be too!

[falkun]

uh yea.... you should be too!

Why would I push for it? There are still things to do on Kunark! And I know its coming eventually anyways, so there is no reason to whine for it. It'll be here when it gets here.

[Nizzarr]

Variance is the only reason I'm not in a raiding guild on this server.

It's a weak, hands-off approach to dealing with the immaturity of the raiding population on p99. Beta management.

I can tell you were not there when the whole server was sitting on nagafens spawn point back in classic.

Hands-off is whats needed here with the 2 server gms you guys have.

yea im sure they want to spend more time dealing with you guys.

[Tecmos Deception]

Hands-off is whats needed here with the 2 server gms you guys have.

Hell. Even a "if you get da xp, you get da lootz!" policy for raid mobs would be better than a GM having to sort out the FTE stuff.

[Spitty]

Are you referring to this server when you say 'back in classic'?

My join date is when I started playing here, which has allowed me plenty of time to observe how awful the raid population is on p99. I don't need to experience 'the whole server sitting on nagafen' to make a valid point.

Variance is one way of dealing with that when there's a lack of administrative resources, but it's weak. It effectively cuts off raiding for anyone who doesn't have hours to burn during a window.

If you don't think that's a shit situation, we have little further to discuss.

[Tecmos Deception]

PVE is for real persons to cooperate to beat.

Eh. I don't feel that this is any more true than "PVP may not involve any cooperation between any players."

[Tarathiel]

uh yea.... you should be too!

velious should fix alot of these problems, but the raid scene is pretty well stagnant right now, so it wouldnt hurt to fix variance until then. im glad you brought it up tho, because once velious is released, there be even less of a reason to have the ridiculously long windows. i mean seriously will a 96 window be needed for outdoor dragons like tal or gore? or are we just going to stick with it and put every single raid mob in velious on a long timer as well? seems like overkill to me. variance was put in when there were only 4 real raid targets, it makes sense for that. it does not make sense in its current state.

again, this thread is not about "rotations" so stop trying to derail.

[Rais]

If some people camped mobs as much as this thread, they would be decked out in pixles!

I think it should be how live was, if I recall it was 24 +/- . I could be wrong!

[kbnexus]

velious should fix alot of these problems, but the raid scene is pretty well stagnant right now, so it wouldnt hurt to fix variance until then. im glad you brought it up tho, because once velious is released, there be even less of a reason to have the ridiculously long windows. i mean seriously will a 96 window be needed for outdoor dragons like tal or gore? or are we just going to stick with it and put every single raid mob in velious on a long timer as well? seems like overkill to me. variance was put in when there were only 4 real raid targets, it makes sense for that. it does not make sense in its current state.

again, this thread is not about "rotations" so stop trying to derail.

yes it is. you want to poopsock you can force a rotation. stop lyin !

anyways variance is applicable here to the abundance of raiders vs the supply of raid targets.
basic economics.

Velious increases raid target (bosses) by at least 3 times. Not to mention 4 new grind areas (HoT, WToV, PoG, Arena/Manor). TMO's epics are 99% done with only a few new apps not epic'd. The only mob in VP that will drop anything we need is PD and that wont be a priority target. Trakanon? who cares.

Also, ST, ToV, even Kael will be significantly longer raids than current raids as we will have to clear, and likely wipe a few times while we gear and learn encounters.

variance will have no relevance in Velious.

In classic to kunark it stops the poopsocking...thank god.

Until there is more supply added (Raids) variance is the best idea currently offered. Getting rid of it will burn your guild out even faster than it is.

[Lazortag]

If some people camped mobs as much as this thread, they would be decked out in pixles!

I think it should be how live was, if I recall it was 24 +/- . I could be wrong!

Live definitely wasn't +/- 24 hours, if there was a variance on normal raid mobs it was extremely small (like +/- 1 hour probably). And your idea still leaves 48 hour windows which is still unreasonably long for anyone with a life outside of this game.

yes it is. you want to poopsock you can force a rotation. stop lyin !

anyways variance is applicable here to the abundance of raiders vs the supply of raid targets.
basic economics.

Velious increases raid target (bosses) by at least 3 times. Not to mention 4 new grind areas (HoT, WToV, PoG, Arena/Manor). TMO's epics are 99% done with only a few new apps not epic'd. The only mob in VP that will drop anything we need is PD and that wont be a priority target. Trakanon? who cares.

Also, ST, ToV, even Kael will be significantly longer raids than current raids as we will have to clear, and likely wipe a few times while we gear and learn encounters.

variance will have no relevance in Velious.

In classic to kunark it stops the poopsocking...thank god.

Until there is more supply added (Raids) variance is the best idea currently offered. Getting rid of it will burn your guild out even faster than it is.

Abundance of loot typically doesn't stop top guilds from contesting mobs, as they can just sell the extra loot (see: trak guts, earth staffs, maestro hands, etc.).

The rest of your post is an argument for variance, and you make some decent points, but not for leaving it the way it is where windows for 7 day spawns are up to 4 days long. It should be cut into 1/4 of what it is now, if not 1/8.

[kbnexus]

Live definitely wasn't +/- 24 hours, if there was a variance on normal raid mobs it was extremely small (like +/- 1 hour probably). And your idea still leaves 48 hour windows which is still unreasonably long for anyone with a life outside of this game.



Abundance of loot typically doesn't stop top guilds from contesting mobs, as they can just sell the extra loot (see: trak guts, earth staffs, maestro hands, etc.).

The rest of your post is an argument for variance, and you make some decent points, but not for leaving it the way it is where windows for 7 day spawns are up to 4 days long. It should be cut into 1/4 of what it is now, if not 1/8.

Where are you statistics supporting 1/4 or 1/8? why not 1/2 or 1/16? person preference?


There will be no need to contest dragons for cash. Esp since most kunark drops will be non-sellers. Maybe epic pieces for alts/apps but I can guarantee we will be more much interested in velious. Just like in live when the new expansion came out the top dogs moved there and the casual/family guilds took the previous content.

[Rais]

People play the game to kill the stuff in it. They can be fully geared, they play for the events. Even with velious, as soon as something dies, you will have trackers on the other stuff. We could clear ToV in like 6hrs max once we got it down if I recall correctly.

It's not like saying velious will solve any issues. Stuff will have windows/spawn times people will sit at.

[SamwiseBanned]

not a raider or on blue but variance sounds stupid as hell. sounds like unemployment is neccessary to track and wait for mobs, sad times we live in.

[Lazortag]

Where are you statistics supporting 1/4 or 1/8? why not 1/2 or 1/16? person preference?


There will be no need to contest dragons for cash. Esp since most kunark drops will be non-sellers. Maybe epic pieces for alts/apps but I can guarantee we will be more much interested in velious. Just like in live when the new expansion came out the top dogs moved there and the casual/family guilds took the previous content.

1/4 or 1/8 just seems more in line with the classic expectation of how much time one needed to devote to eq. I admit 1/8 is arbitrary, but 1/4 isn't, because it makes all the different times a mob could spawn at equiprobable (which is good for people who don't live in the west). Having a 96 hour spawn window does this too, but most people feel that it's too long for casual players to be able to compete. I agree there should be some variance since this is an international server, and it would be unfair for the euros if everything spawned at 10PM EST, but making the variance up to 4 days long is ridiculous. It's an outdated policy from when there were 1/3 of the raid mobs that there are now.

[Spitty]

not a raider or on blue but variance sounds stupid as hell. sounds like unemployment is neccessary to track and wait for mobs, sad times we live in.

That, or exceptionally shitty students. Variance is the downfall of society!

[kbnexus]

People play the game to kill the stuff in it. They can be fully geared, they play for the events. Even with velious, as soon as something dies, you will have trackers on the other stuff. We could clear ToV in like 6hrs max once we got it down if I recall correctly.

It's not like saying velious will solve any issues. Stuff will have windows/spawn times people will sit at.

Stuff will.... in velious. Spawn timers on alot of mobs in velious are much shorter than current spawns.

[kbnexus]

what the fuck is this guy talking about

we are discussing blue here... head on back to your troll cave... unless you want to offer real input? but knowing your char I doubt that will happen.

[Autotune]

1) change 96hr windows (the dumbest idea ever thought up) and shorten it to 18hrs.
2) add weekly/bi-weekly server repops.
3) watch things go from boring to fun.

I seriously can't believe that no changes have been made to make p99 fun, except that I know Nilbog and Rogean are using p99 as a guinea pig. Seeing what a gamer will and won't do is kinda funny.

[Splorf22]

This has been discussed a million times, and the answer is linked respawns, which transfer competition from 'fastest jav in the west' type poopsocking and 'most chars logged in on the ledge' type batphoning to actual real EQ 'who can kill the most stuff the fastest'.

I heard Nilbog was going to implement something like this a month or so ago but haven't heard anything since.

[Tarathiel]

1) change 96hr windows (the dumbest idea ever thought up) and shorten it to 18hrs.
2) add weekly/bi-weekly server repops.
3) watch things go from boring to fun.

I seriously can't believe that no changes have been made to make p99 fun, except that I know Nilbog and Rogean are using p99 as a guinea pig. Seeing what a gamer will and won't do is kinda funny.

+1

[Autotune]

Sometimes I think Rogean and Nilbog are the same person... Obama.

They promise change and then go "play golf" (see play golf as in something other than doing what they said which very well could or could not be work related real life shit)

[Tarathiel]

Sometimes I think Rogean and Nilbog are the same person... Obama.



nah if they were obama we would be getting alot more "welfare' dragons and TMO would be paying for our ports =p

[Autotune]

nah if they were obama we would be getting alot more "welfare' dragons and TMO would be paying for our ports =p

lol

[Picked]

nah if they were obama we would be getting alot more "welfare' dragons and TMO would be paying for our ports =p

HAHAHA thank you. I needed a good laugh! ;)

[Frieza_Prexus]

the answer is linked respawns

+1

Possibly shorten variance, randomly rotate announced/unannounced patch days every week or two (or three~whatever), and add non-authoritative FTE shouts strictly for informational purposes.

Guilds are still rewarded for tracking and camping out in prep, others are occasionally rewarded for quick mobilization on patch day.

Win/win.

[Tecmos Deception]

Just like in live when the new expansion came out the top dogs moved there and the casual/family guilds took the previous content.

Oh, so THAT'S why TMO is never in fear or hate or sky or solb or perma anymore.

[bluejam]

Randomized linked respawns for additional fun. Like...

VS, Tal and Nag are linked. VS, Fay and Vox. etc.

Next week it could be
VS, Trak and Sev.

The list goes on.

[Tecmos Deception]

the classic expectation of how much time one needed to devote to eq.

If this doesn't sound ridiculous to you, you need to step back from the situation for a minute.

[Tecmos Deception]

Randomized linked respawns for additional fun. Like...

VS, Tal and Nag are linked. VS, Fay and Vox. etc.

Next week it could be
VS, Trak and Sev.

The list goes on.

Wouldn't help, imo. Each mob would still be a FTE poopshoot (at best).

It's not like TMO has to pick one (or two) of those mobs to kill; they have the manpower, both players and characters, to do all 3 at once. And if you announce ahead of time when the spawn will be, they will have everyone online. And if you don't announce it, they will batphone and mobilize more quickly than anyone else.

[kbnexus]

Oh, so THAT'S why TMO is never in fear or hate or sky or solb or perma anymore.

limited targets....Especially when the majority of our raids are 30 second encounters.

800khp dragons dont go down in 30 seconds.

Try thinking next time.

[Tecmos Deception]

limited targets....Especially when the majority of our raids are 30 second encounters.

800khp dragons dont go down in 30 seconds.

Try thinking next time.


My bad, I totally missed how you said

Just like in live when the new expansion came out the top dogs moved there and the casual/family guilds took the previous content so long as the top dogs felt like they had enough targets to keep them busy in the new expansion.

[JenJen]

who the fucking shit is kbnexus? loooool

[JenJen]

EIGHT HUNDRED KAY DRAGONZZZZZ!!!!

[Autotune]

My blue char is in tmo, i helped build the guild that you wanted to be in, prolly before you hit lvl 10.


Sorry new kid.

OH snap, we got a badass over here....

[Tarathiel]

this thread is getting really stupid, really fast. lets try to stay on topic, you guys have an entire forum section dedicated to trolling, lets try to keep it there please =D

[Tarathiel]

topic is bullshit anyway, what did you expect?

um i dont know, rational discussion, heated debates. mature attitudes... oh wait thats where i fucked up, expecting people to be mature

[Autotune]

Auto better get a grip on this app, hes making you guys look terrible!



*gasp*

lol, even I don't know who that guy/chick is. I also don't play anymore, haven't for about 6-7months.

[Tarathiel]

if you dont like the topic then dont participate in the discussion, you are only making yourself look like a tool. not like you care tho, if you were the last person alive you would probably troll yourself

[Daldolma]

Super intricate idea bros: go classic, revert to classic variance, eliminate play-nice GM hand-holding, exp group/associated raid gets loot, come down hard (read: bans) on anyone that breaks whatever (few) rules you come up with.

Problem solved in 1 run-on sentence, happy to help.

[Hailto]

Super intricate idea bros: go classic, revert to classic variance, eliminate play-nice GM hand-holding, exp group/associated raid gets loot, come down hard (read: bans) on anyone that breaks whatever (few) rules you come up with.

Problem solved in 1 run-on sentence, happy to help.

This.

[kbnexus]

My blue char is in tmo, i helped build the guild that you wanted to be in, prolly before you hit lvl 10.


Sorry new kid.

Idiot i was the first level 50 in TMO shaddup kiddo

or in something you would understand


u dum me smart


800k was exaggeration but you cant deny that many dragons in velious have more than 12-13x the old 32khp cap

[kbnexus]

Ok now im starting to think youre not a tmo app.



I was referring to the new tmo, that actually did work. Not the old tmo that couldnt break fear. grats on being a part of that.

You dont seem to know what to think... not surprised.

RNF is a different forum go back to your troll cave. That is the only contribution you ever added to TMO anyways.

[Autotune]

Still no clue to who this person is lol.

[kbnexus]

What are you adding to the conversation?

Youre name is anonymous. Nobody knows who you are. Theres some people that will agree with me, and there's some that wont. Atleast they know who they are agreeing / disagreeing with.


You seem to have popped up, read one or two of my posts and assume im the worst troll this community has ever seen.

send me a pm maybe ill tell u.

[kbnexus]

No thanks. I really could'nt care less.

you seem confused, your past posts have expressed concern about my identity, you eve tried to discredit me when you don't know who I am. Why the sudden change? Or are you blustering again?

[Tarathiel]

Youre name is anonymous. Nobody knows who you are.

anybody who has been around long enough with half a brain should know exactly who that is.

Hi Alarti!

[Frieza_Prexus]

Auto better get a grip on this app, hes making you guys look terrible!



*gasp*

And you continually trolling people, mouthing off, and generally acting like a 2nd grader makes us look good?

Please don't cloak yourself in outrage, you've no right to do so when discussing the quality of posts.

[kbnexus]

anybody who has been around long enough with half a brain should know exactly who that is.

Hi Alarti!

I made no effort to hide my identity yet tarathiel just clowned u slip

but back on topic

variance is terrible, not as terrible as poopsocking id be down for shortened variance patch day repops or twice monthly repops or some other similar situation... getting rid of variance or shortening it to such a point that everyone can viably poopsock is a terrible idea however.

[Tarathiel]

when i first made this poll i was kinda kicking myself in the ass for not putting in 3rd not so extreme option but over all i think it left things open for a better discussion. valid points have been made for both extremes of the argument but what i think it all ultimately comes down to is this.



variance is terrible, not as terrible as poopsocking id be down for shortened variance patch day repops or twice monthly repops or some other similar situation... getting rid of variance or shortening it to such a point that everyone can viably poopsock is a terrible idea however.

a compromise.

now lets just hope someone with some pull is reading this thread

[Autotune]

anybody who has been around long enough with half a brain should know exactly who that is.

Hi Alarti!

Hey, I didn't know. (wait, is this a jab at me?)

I was being nice in this thread too...


On a serious note, I had my suspicions about who it was (from reading old posts) but I really didn't dig or really care to figure it out lol.

[Autotune]

now lets just hope someone with some pull is reading this thread

I've read this thread, I've talked about this with people with more pull than me(over the past year+). However, they say change will be made, but then forget about it and let it get on the back slide.

The poll and the thread itself + the ones previously have all shown that the way the raid targets spawn is hurting more than it is helping and many (much much better) solutions have been talked about and agreed upon.

It all comes down to two people that just don't care/want to make the changes. As long as the raid scene limps along, they don't think it's broken.

[Frieza_Prexus]

<a href="http://www.gifbin.com/984852"><img src="http://gifs.gifbin.com/122010/reverse-1291371993_cartman-whateva-i-do-what-i-want.gif" alt="funny gifs" /></a>


Quality post my ass.

Yes, you've made it quite clear you have no concern for anyone but yourself.

[Tarathiel]

variance.. and stuff

[Ravager]

I was being nice in this thread too...


And I agreed with you in this thread too. Sometimes, you can be alright...

[mwatt]

If the spawn timer (7days +/- 48 hours) is shrunk to 7days +/-12 hours, the mob should still spawn, on average, once per week. All the spawns at the beginning of the window (5days after initial spawn) that would statistically decrease the spawn time are offset by instances where the mob waits until the end of the window (9days after initial spawn) to spawn. The average will be the same, but trackers (and possibly raid forces for high priority targets) will get back 72 hours of their lives or have to devote 72 hours less to poopsocking and/or camping out at specific locations.

The goal of allowing the mob to spawn during any time of day (so you are not catering to any particular time zone) would still be achieved.

hmmm, ok. I think I see the reason for our disconnect. I am using the term "window" in a different way than is applied upon this server. Let me re-state. The sort of "window" I am talking about should be thought of as a time span that begins with either a zone repop or the death of the mob in question. These "windows" as it were, would run consecutively and not be scheduled to be bi-sected by a scheduled date. As soon as a mob dies, a new such "window" would begin. Essentially they are nothing more than elapsed time limits denoting a possibe range of time in which a mob could spawn. Since the time of spawning would be randomized within this time spawn and because they stack consecutively with no arbitrary scheduled day, the shorter they are made, the more frequent the spawn would be.

Now, this idea may be naive in that the spawning mechanism for NPCs can not be set two work like this. I dunno about that.

[falkun]

hmmm, ok. I think I see the reason for our disconnect. I am using the term "window" in a different way than is applied upon this server. Let me re-state. The sort of "window" I am talking about should be thought of as a time span that begins with either a zone repop or the death of the mob in question. These "windows" as it were, would run consecutively and not be scheduled to be bi-sected by a scheduled date. As soon as a mob dies, a new such "window" would begin. Essentially they are nothing more than elapsed time limits denoting a possibe range of time in which a mob could spawn. Since the time of spawning would be randomized within this time spawn and because they stack consecutively with no arbitrary scheduled day, the shorter they are made, the more frequent the spawn would be.

Now, this idea may be naive in that the spawning mechanism for NPCs can not be set two work like this. I dunno about that.

You are all kinds of confused. This is what a window is:
Essentially [windows] are nothing more than elapsed time limits denoting a possibe range of time in which a mob could spawn.
Now, in between windows you have this time where the mob CANNOT spawn. We do not have rolling windows on this server where a mob can spawn at any time. We have times when they cannot spawn, then a 96 hour window when it can (but once it spawns it cannot spawn again) and then we are back in the period where it cannot spawn (which starts immediately after the mob is slain).

Where you and I are getting confused is on WHEN the time the mob cannot spawn begins. You are wanting a system where the mob can always spawn on Saturday (arbitrary), give or take 2 days. The current system is the mob cannot spawn for 5 days after the last day it was killed (regardless of when that was).

I don't think either system is inherently better or worse than the other (although keeping the windows fixed around the weekend would help a larger portion of the population, but at the expense of the minority who works on weekends. I think the "kill-determined next window" is more fair to everyone (those who work on weekends and those who work M-F) than the "fixed day center window", I just think the length of the window should be smaller.

[Autotune]

why are we trying to redefine the word window for something that will never happen... (also, how are you going to use your definition of window and then expect everyone else to know wtf you're talking about before you let us in on what you want window to mean.)

and finally.



http://www.premierleagueguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Premier-League-Transfer-Window.jpg

[fadetree]

Lets use Fenster.

[Picked]

Things will get better when Velious arrives. More targets, more stuff to do. Maybe raid targets will come more available once velious is released. And maybe stuff might stay up for more than 5 minutes before it is engaged. By the time Luclin had released there were quite a few raid targets to choose from and if your guild raided when most others did you had a pretty good shot at getting something.

[Tarathiel]

Things will get better when Velious arrives. More targets, more stuff to do. Maybe raid targets will come more available once velious is released. And maybe stuff might stay up for more than 5 minutes before it is engaged. By the time Luclin had released there were quite a few raid targets to choose from and if your guild raided when most others did you had a pretty good shot at getting something.

thats what everyone hopes for, but since velious will be the end of the line content wise im still leery of what will happen once everyone catches up. but yes for the most part velious should change alot in the raid scene. if anything it will open up some classic and kunark targets but im assuming the velious targets will be just as contested as our current content is now

[kbnexus]

thats what everyone hopes for, but since velious will be the end of the line content wise im still leery of what will happen once everyone catches up. but yes for the most part velious should change alot in the raid scene. if anything it will open up some classic and kunark targets but im assuming the velious targets will be just as contested as our current content is now

Of course velious will be contested..... new content always is. Less determined guilds, like BDA would be much more open to raid old top guild guild targets.... just like in live.

Will all of velious be able to be kept down by just one guild... highly doubtful. Too many targets, and alot faster respawns.

[Ferok]

Of course velious will be contested..... new content always is. Less determined guilds, like BDA would be much more open to raid old top guild guild targets.... just like in live.

Will all of velious be able to be kept down by just one guild... highly doubtful. Too many targets, and alot faster respawns.

There's a lot of targets, and the faction requirements mean that only so many targets make sense.

If you take out Sleepers Tomb, NToV, 3 kings, Tunare, Statue/AoW, the ST dragons (which I think a single guild with any competition would have real difficulty monopolizing) you've still got:
Velketor/Doljon
Vindicator (every 12 hours)
Dozekar
Wooshi
Halls of Testing
Kael Arena
Misc Western Wastes Dragons
Cobalt Scar fishDragon
Lodizal (which is a small 'raid' at first)

and all of Classic/Kunark

Did I miss anything? That seems like it'll open up the server quite a bit.

[kbnexus]

There's a lot of targets, and the faction requirements mean that only so many targets make sense.

If you take out Sleepers Tomb, NToV, 3 kings, Tunare, Statue/AoW, the ST dragons (which I think a single guild with any competition would have real difficulty monopolizing) you've still got:
Velketor/Doljon
Vindicator (every 12 hours)
Dozekar
Wooshi
Halls of Testing
Kael Arena
Misc Western Wastes Dragons
Cobalt Scar fishDragon
Lodizal (which is a small 'raid' at first)

and all of Classic/Kunark

Did I miss anything? That seems like it'll open up the server quite a bit.

WToV, Telk, PoG and minis at least and assuming by st dragons u mean, klandi, zlandi, sont, yeli, lendin etc.

edit also, New Hate/gear revamps and mini bosses/golems

[Ferok]

WToV, Telk, at least and assuming by st dragons u mean, klandi, zlandi, sont, yeli, lendin etc.

Yeah I forgot about the other crap in WToV. Good call. Thats also where giant quest armor comes from.

[mwatt]

You are all kinds of confused. This is what a window is:

Now, in between windows you have this time where the mob CANNOT spawn. We do not have rolling windows on this server where a mob can spawn at any time. We have times when they cannot spawn, then a 96 hour window when it can (but once it spawns it cannot spawn again) and then we are back in the period where it cannot spawn (which starts immediately after the mob is slain).

Where you and I are getting confused is on WHEN the time the mob cannot spawn begins. You are wanting a system where the mob can always spawn on Saturday (arbitrary), give or take 2 days. The current system is the mob cannot spawn for 5 days after the last day it was killed (regardless of when that was).

I don't think either system is inherently better or worse than the other (although keeping the windows fixed around the weekend would help a larger portion of the population, but at the expense of the minority who works on weekends. I think the "kill-determined next window" is more fair to everyone (those who work on weekends and those who work M-F) than the "fixed day center window", I just think the length of the window should be smaller.

Actually we still don't seem to be communicating properly. I want a system where there can be defined a set max length of time for a mob to respawn, beginining with it's death or a zone repop. Within that time I want the mob to spawn randomly but to spawn no later than the max time. I am calling this a "window" (and this is my poor choice of words because "window" actually already means something different here). After the death of the mob (or again if an zone repop) a new one of these "windows" would begin immediately, ad infinitum. In a system such as this, if you shorten the "window", you get more frequent spawns, which is what I was trying to explain. You also get automatic variance, but if the "window" is set narrow enough, that is ok. There would be a sweet spot to try and target for sure.

If we are still not communicating (not saying it is your fault) after this, I give up. :)

Also, if the server cannot support this methodology, then obviously what I am trying to describe is pointless. Hell, for all I know, what I am describing is how it already works - but in that case, we need more narrow spawn windows and certainly, narrowing the "window" in this kind of scenario would increase the spawn frequency.

[Autotune]

Actually we still don't seem to be communicating properly. I want a system where there can be defined a set max length of time for a mob to respawn, beginining with it's death or a zone repop. Within that time I want the mob to spawn randomly but to spawn no later than the max time. I am calling this a "window" (and this is my poor choice of words because "window" actually already means something different here). After the death of the mob (or again if an zone repop) a new one of these "windows" would begin immediately, ad infinitum. In a system such as this, if you shorten the "window", you get more frequent spawns, which is what I was trying to explain. You also get automatic variance, but if the "window" is set narrow enough, that is ok. There would be a sweet spot to try and target for sure.

If we are still not communicating (not saying it is your fault) after this, I give up. :)

Also, if the server cannot support this methodology, then obviously what I am trying to describe is pointless. Hell, for all I know, what I am describing is how it already works - but in that case, we need more narrow spawn windows and certainly, narrowing the "window" in this kind of scenario would increase the spawn frequency.

What you want

[------][------][------][------][------][------][------]

however, they way it is now.


[------------------------------]{xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx}[----------

Note that [------] = window and {xxxxxxx} is a period where respawn isn't possible.

Basically, you want it so that a mob is always in window with a max respawn time that is short and doesn't have a delay when the mob is not in window (opposed to how it is now).

[Slave]

Whatever happened to the changes that Nilbog was going to implement concerning variance?

[Zuranthium]

There should be variance in how raid encounters spawn, as in the monsters having different abilities/HP/damage output/quantity of monsters, so that there is an actual challenge for the players. That's the real issue.

Once that is in the game, to make it worth playing in the first place, I would vote for static spawn timers and guilds needing to PvP each other to have the rights to certain areas of the game. If a guild with the rights to an area isn't able to win the encounter in a specified amount of time, it then becomes open to everyone.

[SamwiseBanned]

raid mobs should be controlled by rogean himself so he can FF healers and dps instead of stupid tanks. you would think after 13 years dragons would learn some new tactics.

[Tarathiel]

There should be variance in how raid encounters spawn, as in the monsters having different abilities/HP/damage output/quantity of monsters, so that there is an actual challenge for the players. That's the real issue.

Once that is in the game, to make it worth playing in the first place, I would vote for static spawn timers and guilds needing to PvP each other to have the rights to certain areas of the game. If a guild with the rights to an area isn't able to win the encounter in a specified amount of time, it then becomes open to everyone.

the guru has spoken

[Briscoe]

raid mobs should be controlled by rogean himself so he can FF healers and dps instead of stupid tanks. you would think after 13 years dragons would learn some new tactics.

I always wanted to see a GM to take over a raid mob one time, just to see the carnage.

[Picked]

thats what everyone hopes for, but since velious will be the end of the line content wise im still leery of what will happen once everyone catches up. but yes for the most part velious should change alot in the raid scene. if anything it will open up some classic and kunark targets but im assuming the velious targets will be just as contested as our current content is now

Ya once everyone gets caught up it might be an issue again. But one good thing you have a lot of stuff to keep guilds occupied in Velious, the ring events. Dain, AoW, Idol, Statue. King Tranix or whatever his name is lol

Then you have Velketor, all of ToV, Zlandicar, Klandicar, Sontalok Just a whole slew of targets that Kunark didn't really have. Instead of 4 or 5 targets there are many to go after. That's not even counting Sleepers Tomb and all it's targets.

Again, I'm sure it will end up like it is now with everything on farm status and guilds running around and slobber knocking stuff. But with that many more spawns it's going to be much harder to keep track of all of them. And there is possibly going to be things spawning at the same time as others.

My opinion on the whole thing is as a server everyone needs to cooperate better. I like the idea that if a guild has 20+ in a zone and are at a target forming up, they deserve a first shot. If they don't get said mob then they bow out to anyone standing by waiting. But I'm sure that has already been discussed at nausea.

[Nirgon]

I'd do a dry run with Velious mobs not having spawn variance for 3 weeks and see how it goes. If it becomes a GM cluster fuck / finger pointing game? Put half variance in.

It may not even be necessary for variance to exist on classic/Kunark mobs then... but we'll see.

[Ravager]

I always wanted to see a GM to take over a raid mob one time, just to see the carnage.

I think it was Amelinda who did this with a Gore this spring. There were several wipes by TMO and VD, think Gore dinged once or twice too.

[Lostprophets]

People keep discussing removing the variance...there's almost a post about this like every other week (I was actually looking for the other one to post this in rather than posting a whole new thread..but I couldn't find it). To be frank, I'm kinda sick of seeing them being posted if nothing is going to happen with them rather than people saying "we need it, it's classic".

I'm not entirely sure how to do it as i'm not a coder, but I occasionally play on EZServer, and this is where the idea kinda popped in my head..

My suggestion is that, (using EZServer for an example) They have a 6:00am Reboot every day. On P99 is it possible we just have a random reboot once a week (basically implementing a classic patch day)?

By this, I mean we would implement a script to work with the current variance system (to an extent) but just have a 10 minute notice and shut the server down for like a 10-20 minutes or so during peak times, reboot automatically then have a hard repop (Dragons/gods spawned) once a week rather than having these really long windows for people to track all hours of the day, every day....then keep like Maestro/Draco(etc) on their original 3 day timers or whatever. (which would reset with the simulated "patch day" as they do now once killed)


I'm not adding a poll, its just something to toss out there to the P99 staff to emulate classic a bit more...something to toss into the suggestion box...though unsure where that would be, so server chat will have to work. :p

[Itap]

First.

You would just be making it easier for TMO.

[Sirken]

Top guild would log out buffed at atleast one raid mob (maybe more) before server comes down.

top guild would batphone when the server came down to have everyone ready to log in.

top guild would zerg desired raid mobs as soon as server comes up.

all other guilds would lose 100% of the time.


people can complain about variance sucking all they want. fact is, they are arguing against their best interests unless they are in the top guild.

[Lazortag]

Top guild would log out buffed at atleast one raid mob (maybe more) before server comes down.

top guild would batphone when the server came down to have everyone ready to log in.

top guild would zerg desired raid mobs as soon as server comes up.

all other guilds would lose 100% of the time.


people can complain about variance sucking all they want. fact is, they are arguing against their best interests unless they are in the top guild.

I actually had to re-read Lostprophets's post to see if you and him were talking about the same thing. Not trying to sound rude, but you do realize that server repops currently happen every time there's a patch, and that smaller guilds historically have much more success than with varianced spawns? I refer you to the example of last night where there was a full repop and we got Inny and Maestro, which is probably 2 more mobs than we would have gotten if we were resorting to poopsocking and pressing the track button for 96 hours. Sure we still get less mobs than TMO, but we also have about 1/4 of the raid force, so I'll take 2 mobs over none any day. I can't think of any full repop on this server (out of at least a dozen that have happened) where we didn't either get mobs, or get attempts at mobs - one time we even got VS which is pretty much impossible for a casual guild to do when he's on variance. You can try to argue that variance benefits smaller guilds, but there's this thing called "empirical evidence" that would like to have a word with you.

[Tecmos Deception]

just have a 10 minute notice and shut the server down for like a 10-20 minutes or so during peak times

Confirmed sirken didn't read the post.

Current system is like 95% TMO. Repopping the whole server during primetime would be like 80% TMO maybe, and probably less depending on what targets people went after.

[Nlaar]

Confirmed sirken didn't real the post.



He also forgot to capitalize the first word in 4/5 sentences which is weird because we know he wasn't distracted by reading the post he was responding to. :eek:

[falkun]

Giegue beat me to it. The top guild can poopsock their primary target every respawn, at least one other guild is going to get at least one other mob, which is above the average for most "normal" weeks.

[Fountree]

Giegue, don't you think there was some discussion about whether or not we'd go for Inny last night since Divinity was already up there? Think you know what the decision turned out to be :rolleyes:

[Lazortag]

Giegue, don't you think there was some discussion about whether or not we'd go for Inny last night since Divinity was already up there? Think you know what the decision turned out to be :rolleyes:

I'm sure what you're trying to say is, "we could have gotten every single spawn if we wanted to", but then I know we beat you guys to the patch-day Inny before this one (because you ported up in full force by the time we just finished killing both inny and maestro). So I thank you for your generosity but let's be clear, you can't possibly kill every single spawn before at least one casual guild even gets one mob, and if you could last night, then it was an exception.
Smiley face so this doesn't seem passive aggressive: :)

[Swish]

I don't get it, Sirken responds to:-

we would implement a script to work with the current variance system (to an extent) but just have a 10 minute notice and shut the server down for like a 10-20 minutes or so during peak times

...which is probably enough time to get the majority of a guild to a desired location if not buffed if they're quick about it. I hate to say it but he's right, variance should stay as it is for the sake of the smaller guilds.

[Tecmos Deception]

Giegue, don't you think there was some discussion about whether or not we'd go for Inny last night since Divinity was already up there? Think you know what the decision turned out to be :rolleyes:

Are you trying to be constructive?

Divinity killed Inny and Maestro thanks in part to TMO not being after them; I doubt anyone in any guild would argue otherwise. But it's not like you could have killed Inny and Maestro without at least risking losing something else. If that were the case, then you WOULD have gone to hate instead of "leaving" the kills to Divinity.

[Itap]

Giegue, don't you think there was some discussion about whether or not we'd go for Inny last night since Divinity was already up there? Think you know what the decision turned out to be :rolleyes:

I can't decide if this post is hinting towards generosity, or sympathy

[Lazortag]

I don't get it, Sirken responds to:-



...which is probably enough time to get the majority of a guild to a desired location if not buffed if they're quick about it. I hate to say it but he's right, variance should stay as it is for the sake of the smaller guilds.

You know small guilds know how to prepare for repops too right?
edit: to be fair to Fountree, I'm sure he's not lying when he says they purposely didn't race us for Inny. But that doesn't mean we would have been beaten to it, or if we would have, that this time wasn't an exception. We've historically done well on server repops, as have all the other small guilds I think, and it's not just because the "big guilds" were generous, it's because they were overstretched and couldn't feasibly get every raid mob when they all spawned simultaneously. Whether they backed off of competing for Inny or not is a red herring.
edit2: again, I don't want to sound rude or ungrateful! Just trying to stay on topic and say why simultaneous repops are better than no repops.

[Tecmos Deception]

I don't get it, Sirken responds to:-



...which is probably enough time to get the majority of a guild to a desired location if not buffed if they're quick about it. I hate to say it but he's right, variance should stay as it is for the sake of the smaller guilds.

A few things.

1. You SHOULD hate to say that, because saying that makes you sound like a moron.

2. The OP didn't actually say he wanted to get rid of variance. Personally I had to read it (and most things this guy posts) like 4 times before I could feel confident that I knew what he was trying to say, but still, he didn't say he wanted to get rid of variance, he said he was thinking a once-a-week repop in addition to the current raid system would be good.

3. For purposes of this thread, I don't see how it matters if guilds can or can't mobilize to a spawn point in the time between "server coming down in x minutes" and the server actually coming down, because TMO can't have a raid force on every spawn the moment the server comes up, nor can they kill everything before other guild(s) could primetime mobilize to TMO's lower-priority targets.

[Sirken]

yes i read the original post. i'm thinking i didnt make my response clear enough. i'll try again.

lazortag, youre very right, your guild would have a better chance at raid targets that the top guild no longer wants/needs or considers a priority. and you may even sneak a VS, though they'd be far and few between.

down side is this, it would limit trak kills to the top guild, and as such, would limit VP to the top guild. 10 min is MORE than enough time for the top guild to camp out at ledge.

odds are the #2 guild would start locking down the raid mobs that they can take from the top guild. so most likely, you'd get even less VS kills than you do now.

[Chokan]

Does anyone else get VS kills as it is?

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Yeah lol VS is pretty much on lock down now by TMO as it seems, as is every other target imaginable. With yesterdays reset Divinity who doesn't even attempt to get tangled in the mess that is P99 raiding got to kill both Inny and maestro (Gratz guys), Not sure who else got stuff but Im sure BDA got something as well. There is no way you can convince me that Variance gives the casuals a better chance at targets. It is completely the other way around.

[Writ3r]

nobody else gets VS or Trak kills as it is so the argument is null and void to bring that up... let alone other raid targets in general such as CT, Fay, and Inny in most cases without repop.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

As for trak and VP. those belong to TMO anyways. Alot of guilds won't even consider using the tactics required to even attempt to steal FTE on trak. So TMO camping at trak for a reset won't change anything in that area.

[Nirgon]

Cut the windows in half. People have lives.

[Sirken]

also right now, some of the server resets already do repop all the raid mobs.

and i know some top guilds send out the batsignal any time the server comes down for any reason just in case there's a full respawn.

having it happen 100% of the time makes it more predictable, anything that's more predictable will be taken advantage of by which ever guild is currently at the top of the food chain.

the variance ONLY exists to give other guilds a shot at the raid mobs. if it didnt exist, then for example, if GuildA kills trak, the rest of the server only knows when trak is due if they can find out exactly when he died. with a variance, you only need a ball park idea of when the mob died to figure out the window. Furthermore, GuildA would know EXACTLY when to log in the raid force, as opposed to being at the mercy of a variance, like everyone else.

guilds with trackers/scouts and with mandatory batphones will always get to mobs before guilds that dont use these things, because they can mobilize faster.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

And even if BDA began locking down VS with server resets it still leaves gore, tal, sev, fay, inny, maestro, draco, ct, naggy, and vox for smaller guilds to at least get one attempt in before a larger guild swoops in after they get their higher priority kills.