Raid Changes

[Halfelfbard]

Most of us actually support this extended variance thing, and by most i mean TMO...its a great idea. I personally hate sitting at the screen tapping 4-5 over and over and over and over and over and over and over again....all the while my GF is bitching at me, She thinks its the stupidiest thing ever.

All the while taunting the shit out of me...flashing me dancing around naked, but thats when i say fuck it...leave the song on and do what i gotta do.

[senna]

she cant dance if shes busy makin sandwiches..

nomsayin

[nilbog]

I am still down with trying to improve the raid scene. Step by step, if necessary.

Okay the objective is to create more raid targets and allow more (and different) people the chance at killing them.

Current Variance Timers decreased by half.
+/- 48 hours become 24 hours.
+/- 24 hours become 12 hours.

Originally, the variance timers were created because we were like, wow ok, poopsocking. Let's make it unpoopsockable. Well, the socks became larger.

Simulated Patch Respawns
Once every 7 days, there is an additional, simultaneous spawning of all raid targets that aren't already spawned. These additional spawns are completely random, once per 7 days. This is historically classic due to frequent patches and random crashes which would respawn all npcs. When the simulated patch respawn occurs, there could be a world emote informing players.

Statistically, there are probably hundreds of missing raid spawns. After every crash that eqlive had during this era, they were respawned. An extra chance per week to respawn these npcs is a really good idea imo.

code for idea: hiddenPatch Respawns
With every patch, respawntimes = 0. All npcs guaranteed to respawn with every patch.

classic, needed, and only takes a second

FTE Shout
When a raid target is engaged, it will yellowemote/shout the name of the first player (> lvl x?) to aggro (OR the first group to do 5% damage?). This is to allow players to determine first to engage without the need for guides or GMs to be present.

Discuss.

This is a continuation from the other thread ( http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86005 ).

Here is what nilbog and I are currently planning/designing/brainstorming:

We will be cutting the variance in half on the existing raid spawns.

We will be implementing an FTE notice of some sort, whether this is an emote or some type of message.

We will be implementing a simulated patch day respawn. Here is how it will work.

The server will pick one day of each week (Random 1 to 7, Sunday through Saturday). It will then pick a random time. I will not disclose the range of the possible times, but it will only include afternoon and evening hours, so as to give the best chance for the most people to benefit from it.

A serverwide message will go off indicating that the simulated patch day respawn has or will be taking effect shortly. All raid mobs will (either immediately, delayed, or spanned, tbd) respawn.

These respawns will NOT affect the normal respawn times of the mob. For example. If Talendor was killed on Monday, and on death the server determined he would spawn again on Sunday. A simulated patch day occurs on Thursday, his death on Thursday will not reset his scheduled respawn time on Sunday.
Exception: If the mob's spawn time is scheduled to occur within (To be determined, probably either 6 or 12 hours) of the simulated patch day respawn, it will calculate a new spawn time for the mob as it would had he been killed normally, when he dies from the simulated respawn.

Discuss, and know that this system is not final, now or even when it goes live. We will evaluate how it plays out.

Here is the progression of ideas. It started with forum posts, on to internal discussion, then to the Raid Changes thread. Although not yet implemented, this is basically the concept of what will occur. Internally, we haven't changed our mind on this and haven't said anything different.


Discuss, and know that this system is not final, now or even when it goes live. We will evaluate how it plays out.

Thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=745008) is still open for discussion.

[Rain1]

Cheers to you Nilbog!

-FTE shout/confirmation system will change the game so much for the better. You engage with 20? well you better be able to kill it. As it is, when you have 100+ people poopsocking a target everyone (BDA/FE/TMO... insert random guild) dps's to the max in hope of winning. You add "oh xx guild has it" everyone else backs off, in the hopes of watching the other guild fail. GM's win, Guild's win.

We have beaten this horse to death about 100 times. Need we do 101?

[Rain1]

Everything else is awesome by the way, and I can't wait for it (The Rogean summary) to happen!

[gotrocks]

im actually kind of serious about making the variance huge. Think about it. That + simulated patch days and FTE text could make a big difference.

If you have a +/- 120 hr variance on each mob you may actually solve the problem.

No point in socking unless theres 8 or fewer hours left in window, and with such a large variance the chances of that happening are not very big.

Idk, maybe i'm just an idiot and its 6 am and im tired, but it makes sense to me, and since we already have a variance, we might as well have a variance that works.

I really don' think shortening the variance is going to make any difference at all... think about it... people will sock even more if theres less time on the timer....

[Tecmos Deception]

If you have a +/- 120 hr variance on each mob you may actually solve the problem.

Let's assume that it is possible to kill socking and tracking with sufficiently large variance.

Ok. So now socking and tracking are dead. How do guilds get bosses now? That's right. They zerg even harder than ever before, to give themselves the best odds of having a ranger/druid/bard in the right zone at the right time to notice on track that a boss popped and to be able to hit more targets at once during the repop every week.


A known, weekly repop with the same timers but lessened variance will not eliminate socking or tracking or zerging, but it will drastically increase the amount of raid mobs available to kill every week, with a large number of those mobs being impossible to monopolize by a guild that can "only" field 75 raiders at once. Big and "dedicated" guilds get more loot, but the smaller and casual guilds get some loot... assuming they don't insist on trying to fight for a VS/trak kill or something.

And then if only the training bullshit in VP were outlawed and VP repops with the rest of the mobs, suddenly the top dogs don't just have the no-brainer of "duh, let's kill trak and VS then go after ct/inny while a couple of our members train anyone who gets past the splits in VP" and they might have to settle for fewer targets outside of VP while they make sure they don't lose any PDs or something.


/shrug

[Wiwi]

I am still down with trying to improve the raid scene. Step by step, if necessary.

This is encouraging.

You could also bait the high end guilds into a self-maintained rotation system by offering to completely remove variance. Albeit it would require a little extra chivalry than what the "elite" guilds have expressed in the recent past.

[Tecmos Deception]

You could also bait the high end guilds into a self-maintained rotation system by offering to completely remove variance. Albeit it would require a little extra chivalry than what the "elite" guilds have expressed in the recent past.

That'd be about as successful as trying to bait someone away from five star dinner with a 2-day-old big mac and some cold, soggy fries.

TMO has been successful in this system for a year now? Or longer? Why would they give up their 80-90% success rate for even a 2-way rotation, let alone a larger one, just so that each member can give up a few hours of tracking every week? It's obvious that having to track and camp characters at ledge and sock hasn't and won't wear out people faster than they can replace them... they could continue this system for a long time.

[Wiwi]

That'd be about as successful as trying to bait someone away from five star dinner with a 2-day-old big mac.

Tastes just as good as it was on the 1st day.

[SupaflyIRL]

Any solution that involves GM enforcement or spawn windows with known end points will be a failure because there is little to no GM presence on this server due to the volunteer nature of the staff, and the lengths people have shown they will go to for loot.

People are unwilling to compromise so behavior changes must be engineered through code changes.

[Splorf22]

I am still down with trying to improve the raid scene. Step by step, if necessary.


So I love the idea of simulated patch days Nilbog, but I think they are not enough. Suppose we have 1 simulated patch day without variance. Imagine you are Shinko/Zeelot. Your guild has 100+ active raiders each with 3 L60 toons. Before the patch, you split your forces into two teams, let's call them blue and red. After the patch TMO/FE Blue logs on with 35+ toons and goes for Trakanon, then logs off to a new set of fully buffed toons and goes for Sev (while having a few people get killed by CT and make everyone camp out to delay), then logs off to a new set of fully buffed toons and goes for CT. TMO/FE Red logs on with 35+ and goes for VS, switches toons for Inny, and finally goes for Talendor. Because they are just logging on a new set of fully buffed toons (and the pulls for sev and talendor can start early) the whole process is over in 30 minutes. Now 30 minutes is still a huge improvement; some casual guild will get Maestro for sure and maybe Draco. With practice perhaps even Inny. Gorenaire will no doubt be zerged down by 300+ while TMO/FE play in VP.

Basically I know it's not classic but there has to be code for the simulated resets that prevents a) logging out fully buffed characters and b) swapping between characters. Lets run that simulation again using the Loraen plan when both of those are impossible and there is no training in VP. Suddenly if you are Zeelot/Shinko you have to make real choices. Lets say you split your forces to go for VS/Trak. Well if the zone is fully popped this might take a while. There will probably be at least one see invis either in the jail or a jugg, so that has to be trained away for everyone to move down. It'll probably take 15 minutes for everyone to kill Trak and then get an evac to Skyfire for VP. That's more than enough time for a raid force camped out at the VP zone in to kill Phara Dar. OK, so you send one team for VP and one for Trak. Well after 15 minutes to kill Trak there is no way VS is up, so they head for fear. Which they have to actually port to, rez the dead, run from feerot port, etc. Thats 15 minutes. Anyway, my point is that the guilds would have to actually behave like guilds at this point, and port from target to target, rather than just log on/off.

[Tecmos Deception]

Your guild has 100+ active raiders each with 3 L60 toons.

I think the "multiple raid-geared characters logged out at different bosses per real player" is quite an exaggeration.

[criddopher]

All great plans. I would say disclose the simulated patch when it happens no warning before hand. It would allow for more skill in mobilizing your guild and getting to targets needed in order to actually get them.

[Itap]

I think the "multiple raid-geared characters logged out at different bosses per real player" is quite an exaggeration.

albeit an exaggeration, he may not be too far off. I mean, what else do the officers spend the millions of pp on?

[Splorf22]

All great plans. I would say disclose the simulated patch when it happens no warning before hand. It would allow for more skill in mobilizing your guild and getting to targets needed in order to actually get them.

If by skill you mean abandoning whatever you were doing in RL, I agree with you.

[Splorf22]

I think the "multiple raid-geared characters logged out at different bosses per real player" is quite an exaggeration.

1. Check out TMO's roster. Look at how many players are in parentheses.

2. Notice that a lot of the people not in parentheses have alts (Jeremy has 4 toons, Alarti is Paradime and others, Internode has Aether, etc)

3. TMO alts get more gear than BDA mains; Zeelot has an SK!! alt with the epic which I think is hilarious, and the alts load up on VP gear as well.

4. If the server switches to simultaneous repops, having multiple chars will become a priority and the number of alts will hugely increase. Especially a lot of naggy/vox alts would make the trip to 60 I'm guessing.

So basically either that is the situation now, or it would be the situation in 3 months.

edit: I should mention I'm not shitting on TMO here; a lot of the A-team has multiple raid chars (Loraen/Sakuragi, Coeur/Atravesar, Azz/Azz, Nordenwatch/Furiously, etc). It's just been a long time since Kunark came out, espcially when 55+ toons are for sale for 100k in the tunnel.

[Tecmos Deception]

he may not be too far off. I mean, what else do the officers spend the millions of pp on?

Yes, he is.

TMO's officers are not spending millions of PP to buy multiple, raid-ready level 60 accounts for every member of the guild. I'm sure a dozen or so of their members have multiple 60s that are ready for raids, but I doubt that all of those characters are strategically positioned at all times... and that is very, very long ways away from 100 people with 3 raid-ready 60s each, all of which are sitting around at boss camps fully buffed.



1. Check out TMO's roster. Look at how many players are in parentheses.

2. Notice that a lot of the people not in parentheses have alts (Jeremy has 4 toons, Alarti is Paradime and others, Internode has Aether, etc)

3. TMO alts get more gear than BDA mains; Zeelot has an SK!! alt with the epic which I think is hilarious, and the alts load up on VP gear as well.

4. If the server switches to simultaneous repops, having multiple chars will become a priority and the number of alts will hugely increase. Especially a lot of naggy/vox alts would make the trip to 60 I'm guessing.

So basically either that is the situation now, or it would be the situation in 3 months.

Like I said. I'm sure several people have at least a few accounts. And I'm sure many people have a couple. But I seriously doubt just about everything in the statement "TMO has 100 active raiders each of whom have 3 60s that are always buffed and logged out at strategically-selected boss spawns." Jeremy and Zeelot are extreme examples, even for TMO, and you know it :p

[Itap]

The only thing we can both agree on then is we are both making assumptions that we cannot prove :p

[Splorf22]

Again Tecmos, I'm not saying EVERY player in TMO has THREE accounts with FULL RESIST GEAR and RIGHT NOW. I'm saying many players in TMO have some of those conditions, and if simultaneous repops became a reality, getting those accounts would become a priority.

[Slave]

1. Check out TMO's roster. Look at how many players are in parentheses.

2. Notice that a lot of the people not in parentheses have alts (Jeremy has 4 toons, Alarti is Paradime and others, Internode has Aether, etc)

3. TMO alts get more gear than BDA mains; Zeelot has an SK!! alt with the epic which I think is hilarious, and the alts load up on VP gear as well.

4. If the server switches to simultaneous repops, having multiple chars will become a priority and the number of alts will hugely increase. Especially a lot of naggy/vox alts would make the trip to 60 I'm guessing.

So basically either that is the situation now, or it would be the situation in 3 months.

Anyone in the game can do this. It again comes down to the "punishing people for what they've earned" kind of thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with having multiple characters logged out in strategic places, ready to engage raid targets.

The unfairness comes into play with the Variance. It creates the situation where only the largest guilds can afford the man-hours to Track the targets, something that simply did not exist in Live. Spawn times were known and raids were mobilized on that basis, not via Trackers and batphones. Without Variance, a given number of raiders could expect a given number of kills just due to probability of FTE, without all the waiting and socking. That created Rotations.

So now we've got this cult of entitlement coming out of TMO, where the scum has floated to the top of the server. Rogean is so self-contradictory between the issues of Variance and Classic, when he even bothers to check on us anymore, that it would be fascinating to watch, if we weren't so directly involved. That only makes it nauseating.

The question is, can we expect Rogean to show any interest in the server ever again? I am chewing leather for the developers who still actually care, and it's basically a matter of days before the server begins losing the new population influx to the totally fux0red raid scene. Hasn't this exact scenario played out too many times to ignore anymore?

[Vandy]

I am still down with trying to improve the raid scene. Step by step, if necessary.

Here is the progression of ideas. It started with forum posts, on to internal discussion, then to the Raid Changes thread. Although not yet implemented, this is basically the concept of what will occur. Internally, we haven't changed our mind on this and haven't said anything different.

Thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=745008) is still open for discussion.

I would love to see some of these changes implemented even if its just a temp testin week/2 week period to see how it goes. We can theorycraft all we want but we will never know until we see it live and in action.

[Wiwi]

I would love to see some of these changes implemented even if its just a temp testin week/2 week period to see how it goes. We can theorycraft all we want but we will never know until we see it live and in action.

Hear, hear!

Looking forward to this.

[Wiwi]

I am chewing leather for the developers who still actually care, and it's basically a matter of days before the server begins losing the new population influx to the totally fux0red raid scene. Hasn't this exact scenario played out too many times to ignore anymore?

I'm pretty sure that most of these new players will burn out once they start hitting hell levels (30, or 35). If anything, the raid changes could possibly bring back a decent number of players who tired of the lopsided nature of things and quit because of it.

[microlo1]

Epics should be attainable by people, as they are a main goal of classic everquest. Right now drops from innoruuck such as mage hate staff and slimebloods for necros are not and i think that this should be fixed in whichever manner you guys find fitting.

[Wiwi]

Epics should be attainable by people, as they are a main goal of classic everquest.

Epics will be easier at some point during Velious. That's when they started making changes in classic.

[rafaone]

Epics should be attainable by people, as they are a main goal of classic everquest. Right now drops from innoruuck such as mage hate staff and slimebloods for necros are not and i think that this should be fixed in whichever manner you guys find fitting

THIS. and dont forget VS part of druid epic, why non TMO/BDA or anyother NON POOPSOCKERS cant attain it? tell me. this sucks

[Wiwi]

Epics are supposed to be rare. It gets easier in Velious, but it still requires a lot of luck and hours of dedication.

[cyryllis]

there are way more epics here than I remember seeing during live.

epics are not meant to be common, easily acquired items...thats why they are called epics

[Furniture]

Epics should be attainable by people, as they are a main goal of classic everquest. Right now drops from innoruuck such as mage hate staff and slimebloods for necros are not and i think that this should be fixed in whichever manner you guys find fitting.

THIS. and dont forget VS part of druid epic, why non TMO/BDA or anyother NON POOPSOCKERS cant attain it? tell me. this sucks

There is no "main goal of classic everquest", while most of the people on this server are min/maxers and want their epics, the majority of the population back in the day did not try so hard to get their epics, and undoubtedly if they had to get their epic piece they wanted off a raid mob, they would have to be in a raid guild or join/start pickup raids to get it, why should this be any different just because you don't want to join a guild that can aquire the pieces?

[Tiggles]

there are way more epics here than I remember seeing during live.

epics are not meant to be common, easily acquired items...thats why they are called epics

[Briscoe]

I already juxtaposed these quotes in a different thread a few months ago, but I shall do it again:

How does that help the smaller guilds? The large guilds batphone and gobble up all the mobs again.

(P.S. When was the last time we did a simulated respawn? I'll check to see which guilds got what)

After the patch yesterday I was thinking about how Rogean mentioned he was sorry for doing a patch during peak hours. All I can think to myself is, how do you owe us an apology? A patch during peak times is the best thing to happen for those of us in non "super" guilds in a long time. We were actually able to engage (and even kill!) a few spawns before every single raid named was completely wiped out. I think even for those small guilds out there who attempted some kills but failed, were probably still satisfied that they were even given the opportunity. This high end tier of raiding is generally experienced only by a small fraction of players on the server (which I think is a bad thing) and so seeing folks who don't fit under this generalization succeed in claiming and defeating these spawns is not only exciting but really makes our time spent on Project 1999 much more enjoyable. So I do not accept your apology and instead thank you for it.

(of course insert long responses about how variance and raid spawn timers etc etc need to be changed etc etc need more patches etc etc resets every week etc etc blah blah)

Thanks!

[Handull]

THIS. and dont forget VS part of druid epic, why non TMO/BDA or anyother NON POOPSOCKERS cant attain it? tell me. this sucks

VS part is not the hard part, the fay pod is, at least until they patch it. go check out the research on the druid epic that was done for the pod drop rate thread. one guy talks about spending 400 hours to get his druid epic (pre velious). glad i finally got mine, but just saying, it wasn't easy on live and it isn't easy here.

[Acrux Bcrux]

Thought about logging in after a month. Came to the forums and read this and then wanted to log in even more. Then hit the character select screen and realized how lame this game and the people who play on this server are and exited. Hope you have a good weekend. Oh wait yall will just be sitting on your asses chasing pixels.

Peaceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Tecmos Deception]

Thought about logging in after a month. Came to the forums and read this and then wanted to log in even more. Then hit the character select screen and realized how lame this game and the people who play on this server are and exited. Hope you have a good weekend. Oh wait yall will just be sitting on your asses chasing pixels.

Peaceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I'd be upset too if I were a ranger with a bard alt.

[Acrux Bcrux]

I'd be upset too if I were a ranger with a bard alt.

yep, faggots like this is why this game is lame as shit. thx for the confirmation.

[Tecmos Deception]

You're still online. Didn't you say you were leaving 35 minutes ago?

Lol.

[AexDestroy]

To me it sounds like you want to do this.


Current Socks:
http://media.uxcell.com/uxcell/images/item/catalog/ux_a09082800ux0269_ux_c.jpg


Proposed Socks:
http://www.lavieenroseonline.com/images/products/600x840/120926-204119-sailor-long-socks--greengage.jpg


Extending spawn time just seems to extend sock time?
People are just gonna fuckin sock.

[AexDestroy]

A serverwide message will go off indicating that the simulated patch day respawn has or will be taking effect shortly. All raid mobs will (either immediately, delayed, or spanned, tbd) respawn.



This is where this idea takes a complete shit IMO.

The respawn needs to happen unannounced, period.

People have trackers, and they need to mount of their own accord on the mobs that they see up. Giving notification ONLY serves the massive zerg guilds. You will simply be creating a new imbalance, and feeding the zerg machines twice as much loot.

Notify people when its OVER imo.

[Splorf22]

Aex: Notifications clearly serve the small guilds, not the big guilds who have way more manpower to track. Case in point: the guilds that currently track are TMO, FE, and BDA . . . the biggest guilds on the server. Hint: when you say silly things, at least don't be rude about it.

Cyrills: the reason there are so many epics on the server (aside from the fact that everyone knew how to do the quests from day 1) is a function of the slow progression. If this was really 1999 and we sync our timeline to when the epic quests came out, Velious would have been out last March and Luclin (!!) would be due in a month or two.

[contemptor]

VS part is not the hard part, the fay pod is, at least until they patch it. go check out the research on the druid epic that was done for the pod drop rate thread. one guy talks about spending 400 hours to get his druid epic (pre velious). glad i finally got mine, but just saying, it wasn't easy on live and it isn't easy here.
Both are tough, but I feel VS is harder given that it's socked through most of the window.

-Signed, biased bitter druid that needs VS :)

[Wiwi]

Ok so we'll make rangers better and reduce the variance. Are ya happy now?

[Auvdar]

Both are tough, but I feel VS is harder given that it's socked through most of the window.

-Signed, biased bitter druid that needs VS :)

On this server, I would say this. I know a dozen+ druids who are done with the entire epic outside the VS drop, including the Pod of Water. Not to say VS has a worse drop rate or anything, but for the mere fact that VS is killed practically instantly on pop.

Druid epic sucks anyway! <Angry druid in denial about VS epic part>

[AexDestroy]

Notifications do not serve small guilds nearly to the extent large guilds are served.

Scenario: small 20 man guild has 10 people online, notification goes out and 75% of their people show, they maybe have 1 single chance at 1 single mob.

TMO/FE/BDA/Whatever has hundreds of toons available to them.
Notification goes out, they have enough time to strategize and mount on numerous targets successfully... how does this serve small guilds?


--------------------------------------

Or how about when A Small Guild is doing their weekly hate runs, and then a notification comes out and the Inny/Maestro that would have been attainable is now a shit show train fest, equaling in no loot and more bad feelings

--------------------------------------

Notifications are bullshit. Let everyone have equal chance to be in the right place at the right time and come out on top.

[Wiwi]

It's just one reset per week from what I understand. Give it a chance.

[Tecmos Deception]

Notifications do not serve small guilds nearly to the extent large guilds are served.

Scenario: small 20 man guild has 10 people online, notification goes out and 75% of their people show, they maybe have 1 single chance at 1 single mob.

TMO/FE/BDA/Whatever has hundreds of toons available to them.
Notification goes out, they have enough time to strategize and mount on numerous targets successfully... how does this serve small guilds?

No one ever said that simultaneous repops, no matter how they are done, will level the playing field between big guilds and small guilds. But you're blind if you can't see that repops with some warning ahead of time work out better for small guilds than the current system does.

If you want more kills on more targets, you need to be bigger and/or more "dedicated." That's the bottom line on here.

[happyhappy]

they maybe have 1 single chance at 1 single mob.

I know I have a degree in advanced mathematics and I can't possibly expect everyone else to but, from what I gather, and I've double checked many times, 1 > 0.

[SupaflyIRL]

I know I have a degree in advanced mathematics and I can't possibly expect everyone else to but, from what I gather, and I've double checked many times, 1 > 0.

Not to brag as well but, peer reviewing this post and it checks out.

[SupaflyIRL]

epic multiquesting needs to be disabled too btw pieces become less valuable when you have 30 minutes to sell them as opposed to an indefinite amount of time

[Frieza_Prexus]

This is where this idea takes a complete shit IMO.

The respawn needs to happen unannounced, period.

People have trackers, and they need to mount of their own accord on the mobs that they see up. Giving notification ONLY serves the massive zerg guilds. You will simply be creating a new imbalance, and feeding the zerg machines twice as much loot.

Notify people when its OVER imo.

I agree with Loraen. Smaller guilds are better served by announced respawns more than larger guilds are. Top guilds can mobilize to any target in the game in under 15 minutes if sufficiently motivated.

The merits of announced repops were discussed in this thread:http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84357&page=1

With a focused discussion on a prior announcement of repops beginning in earnest on pages 2 and 3.

[Frieza_Prexus]

So, I just got back in from being out all weekend.

@ Loraen, I agree completely that the other raid changes are far, far, more valuable, and that if they are a within our grasp that they should be the focus. Nilbog's comments seem to give us hope here, so let's play that out.

That said, if the other changes appeared nonviable, I figured my proposed scheme might be "less offensive" to the dev's sensibilities are it is a modification / fine tuning of the variance.

@ A few select individuals who took the time to explain themselves: I humbly accept the reminder that socking, while not fun, is a tactic of last resort for the smaller guild with no other option. Being in TMO, I can tend to forget that if a small guild absolutely wants a kill, the sock is always an option. I treated socking as an annoyance, whereas for some, it can be a necessity. I suppose hindsight is 20/20 on this one, and I do recognize that my suggestion does favor the larger guilds.

Also, regarding everyone in TMO having a level 60 alt: Most alts are perma camped in Trak lair 90% of the time. Some, like me, have no true alts and we have to haul ours butts everywhere. I keep Xasten at Trak ledge most of the time because we have so few enchanter alts, and I'll log on Elethia's wizard for things like Draco and such. There are a few who have completely pimped out alt armies, but they are relatively the exception.

[Slave]

I agree with Loraen. Smaller guilds are better served by announced respawns more than larger guilds are. Top guilds can mobilize to any target in the game in under 15 minutes if sufficiently motivated.

The merits of announced repops were discussed in this thread:http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84357&page=1

With a focused discussion on a prior announcement of repops beginning in earnest on pages 2 and 3.

TL;DR: That is basically 20 pages of every player on the server refuting the Developer insistence that Variance is a good and proper thing. 5 fucking months ago.

[Slave]

Bump to raise awareness that this shit has gone on far too long.

[Slave]

Bump for awareness. Variance should be removed.

[Slave]

Variance should be removed. It's been obvious for a long time.

[Slave]

Variance is completely out of control. It needs to be removed as soon as humanly possible for the good of the server.

[Slave]

Variance is probably the worst thing to ever happen to this server.

[Slave]

I think it is time this policy was reviewed in full. It has done nothing to promote end-game raiding. In fact, it has stifled it to the point that when groups of joinees reach the raid scene, they quit in droves. Something needs to be done.

[Splorf22]

As you can see I have been a crusade against variance for some time, without a great deal of success. You know if red had about 2-3 times its current population I would seriously consider switching.

P.S. Sedrie, how could you forget howling stones, the best zone in the entire Kunark expansion???

[Slave]

It's about time Variance was removed. We need to have a real discussion about this.

[Splorf22]

Meanwhile Slave is really going nuts on his variance crusade.

[Slave]

Meanwhile Slave is really going nuts on his variance crusade.

I'm going all sane on you guys today yo. Enough is enough of this system which seems deliberately in place to hobble any guild but the biggest.

[Slave]

Confirmed by a second source, 1 is in fact greater than 0. But in other news, 1=2.

http://cdn.head-fi.org/2/20/206d12b1_588px-Divide_by_zer0.jpg

[Frieza_Prexus]

Meanwhile Slave is really going nuts on his variance crusade.

He is slavishly devoted to his cause. (Lolololz)

[Splorf22]

To actually post on topic, the OP is missing the point. If variance is removed lower tier guilds will be able to participate which is the real goal. So what if you get your guild together and lose CT to TMO 9/10 times. At least you get to participate if you wish. Right now the barriers to entry are just off the charts.

[Tippett]

The majority of people have wanted it gone since like a week after it was implemented.

I'll tell you a little secret;






































Not going to change

[Wiwi]

I'll tell you a little secret;
Not going to change

When it changes, how will you be able to show your face in this thread?

[SupaflyIRL]

Not classic, bro.

Neither is variance, or week long poopsocking, or selling epics for 700k.

[Tippett]

When it changes, how will you be able to show your face in this thread?

I'm very worried that thread # 471 on this subject will magically be the one to change things.

[Wiwi]

I'm very worried that thread # 471 on this subject will magically be the one to change things.

Yeah but, now we have a poll ^^^^.

[gotrocks]

poll has been up for.. 3 years?


maybe we could get a new one, nil...?

or is variance here to stay for good?

[eqmaze]

As much as I like this idea, it doesn't address the fundamental issue that was raised in the other thread.

Prior to the enforced rotation, the rule was basically, "First in the zone with a raid force"...and the guilds in question were camping out 2, 4, 14 hours ahead on anticipated spawns.

If we switched to the method in this thread, the guilds would just go back to camping for days ahead of time, then some GM would have to come in and resolve who was here first...when both guilds had 15+ in the zone for more than 12 hours.

The root issue is not having enough raid targets and we're just going to have to deal with it until content expands to meet demand.

truth

[Metallikus]

poll has been up for.. 3 years?


maybe we could get a new one, nil...?

or is variance here to stay for good?

Yes, it promotes "competition" 48 28.24%
No, its an unneccesary non-classic time sink 122 71.76%

Variance lost in a landslide victory on the first poll regarding this. They indoctrinated it anyways. They do what they want.

[falkun]

The good news is Nilbog & Co. are still working on the community suggested remedies: FTE shout, simulated patch respawns, and shorter variance. Yay for progress!

Some quick questions, simulated respawn will ONLY be for varianced mobs, correct? I know a bunch of ENC's that would love Verina, etc. Also, the spawned Nagafen will not create a second Ragefire spawn cycle, but will kill Ragefire if he is up when simultaneous-Naggy spawns, correct? Will other spawned mobs (thinking Undead Bard and spawned Fay/VS) also properly account for the un-linked simultaneous spawn?

[LizardNecro]

I know I have a degree in advanced mathematics and I can't possibly expect everyone else to but, from what I gather, and I've double checked many times, 1 > 0.

Not to brag as well but, peer reviewing this post and it checks out.

Also with a degree in theoretical mathematics. I may be out of my field of expertise here, as we are dealing with applied math, but I do think that I can concur.

[Nogdar]

I didnt read the 100 pages but this right here if doable is BRILLIANT, in my opinion :

1) Multi-spawns. Set up naggy / voxx etc to respawn every 24 hours, but break out bans for any person / guild that kills it more than once every 7 days. You could set up database development to handle the monitoring of this by adding tracking factions to the raid mobs and keep change logs on these factions on a per character / guild / ip basis to ensure that each person / guild only gets one shot at loot each week.

It would be a little bit of development work up front, but it can't be more than babysitting the guilds every week. Also this would allow up and coming guilds shots to learn and enjoy these encounters without impeding vet raiders. Also would allow for more friendly competition where the guilds can track their kills every week on a kill board or whatever.

[Morgander]

Some reasons why the above post quote is bad:

1. Over-saturation of loot. If Nag drops a CoF every other kill on average, and spawns once every 7 days, that's one new CoF on the server every 14 days. If Nag spawns 7 times a week, that's approximately 3.5 cloaks every week. That's not double, not even triple, but over triple item saturation. That just brings the price down and ensures that everyone has a CoF, or two.

2. You can't track IP's and ban them for going after multiple raid mobs. My brother plays with me and he isn't in the same guild I am. He can't raid if I do this week and his guild goes after that mob the following day? Bull.

3. Not tracking IP's means I'm just going to make a second guild and second character to raid with, or a third or even a fourth if I'm that "leet".

I had an idea at one time for this; change the current HP rates of raid mobs from 32K, to 320K. Most guilds wouldn't be able to down Trak if they couldn't throw 40+ overequipped players at him to drop him in seconds from sheer dps before his aoe's trash em.

Most raid mobs are only easy because they have no health and die faster than the mobs second AoE.

[Kagatob]

Periodic server resets with a variance that respawn every mob on the server outside of VP.

End of story. This is classic because it mimics server patches which did happen on live. It also has a secondary benefit of kicking AFK people and reducing server load in that respect.

[kotton05]

variance is great imo, some seem abit long but its what ever. I mainly want the fte shout and random repops.

[Wiwi]

Keep these votes rolling in people! I'm pretty damn sure we'll get the changes once we get past the 1000 vote threshhold.

The poll will lead us into the land of milk and honey nut cheerios.

[Lyra]

This poll will close on 06-07-2015 at 11:24 AM

Not a necro, the poll is still open P~

India, I knew I liked you!

This is not true. See my earlier post.
On Rodcet the top guild got 90%+ of the mobs, at least until Velious was released.

In fact there was competition, some pretty stiff competition, but much like P1999 the guilds that were considered competition folded, went thru other iterations (names) and folded again.

History is repeating itself :)

Is that all you could come up with?
Tell me then, what do you remember of Rodcet Nife?
How late were you allowed to play?
What guild were you in, and during what year(s)?
Did your raiding on RN interfere with homework, family time, or were you even on RN?

Or was the above just a statement you pulled out of your ass for lack of anything else to contribute?

LOL

Every blue server had their own set of rules that they followed
On Rodcet we raced for the mobs. The only difference between Rodcet Nife and this server is on RN if a guild got to the mob and was prepping, and a second guild arrived and was ready to engage, the second guild usually (not always) gave the first guild xx minutes to pull and kill,,, else they would leapfrog.

If the first guild pulled and wiped, the second guild killed the mob

If the first guild didn't pull within the time allotted by the guild that was waiting for them,, they would generally rush past (leapfrog) and kill the mob.

As more and more guilds got to raiding level, we had a lot of racing, training, leapfrogging, etc. OOC was always good drama :)

Yup

First off all, I'm female which of course = I'm right ;)
Arirang, along with notable guilds like EiE and Ascent weren't formed until after Velious release.
Read on... the interesting stuff starts at Kunark release about 1/2 down which clearly shows domination by an alliance INITIALLY (to be referred to as one since that's what is done here when one guild is allied with another...) It was generally always a race between the alliance and EK - with EK dominating due to their guild roster which included players from all over the world.

PS: started to bold the more interesting parts but didn't have time to finish...

[27th April 1999 or so] RN opens
[20th June 1999] 12 guilds formed, they represent the first 12 guilds on Rodcet Nife. Confirmed: Brew Masters.
[?] Feylin is the first level 50 (druid)
[?] Covenant of Peace formed. Lead by Rhyno, influentials include Dyvim, Mirax, Axine and lots of others.
[?] Legions of Rodcet Nife is formed and accomplishes... what?
[?] Order of the Dragon formed members would include Phad, Korban, Katia, Melissa, Heclrolv, Tilien, Seela, Maple (Sewerslop), Eldog, Creath, and many more.
[October 1999] Brotherhood of Steel formed mostly by BatMUD players with Glayde as the leader. Most Ascent officers will be members at one point or another (Delheru, Honch, Reia, Vesi)
[?] Souls of Relevance formed. Corona, Tuvas, Mairi as influentials and Fulkson as leader.
[?] Covenant of Peace falls to internal disagreements mostly between Mirax and Axine
[?] Warlords of Wrath (WoW) formed with Lachdonnan leading. The leads were to be passed on to later influentials such as Lliam, Emalith, Quintus, Grum and Foolra.
[?] Mirax leaves Rodcet Nife
[?] Something goes horribly wrong between Axine and Sinclaire (Vosh), and both are the types to hold a grudge
[?] Avatars of Discord (AoD) forms, lead by Satao with Dyvim, Axine, Asian, Morghul, Malsheen, Ailennin, Nails, Kimmy, Armanthus, Lofwyr etc as fairly key figures
[?] Arcane legacy (AL) forms, Rhyno leads with Ghime, Zinf, Ryne etc as key figures
[?] Harbinger of storms (HOS) forms as an "less" American guild with a lot of asians. Does planes etc. Lead by Valdraug with influentials like Sern, Gazloy and Liosliath
[?] Thelyn Amar forms, lead by Sinclaire (aka Vosh) with other influentials such as Vykdrago, Mirax, Celegrom and Xanatax
[?] Highland Clan formed with Snakes leading and other (later to be) influentials including Thun, Rogosh, Lighting, Sysquella etc
[June 1999] Sinclaire (Vosh) <Thelyn Amar> obtains the first Soulfire on Rodcet Nife
[?] Eastern Keep (EK) forms, lead by Carol with Jeet, Yohon etc as other influentials
[?] Guardians of the Malt Formed with Dajal leading. Other influentials include Fornza, Doraf, Vison, Hairen etc.
[?] First Nagafen kill - by a semi pickup raid run by... who?
[16th Oct, 1999] First Vox kill - mostly AoD/AL force lead by Dyvim
[?] Other significant guilds include Darkflame Knights, Brotherhood of Steel, Souls of Relevance etc etc
[?] Thelyn Amar disappears due to the political problems caused by the Axine - Sinclaire dispute
[?] Sinclaire rerolls as Vosh
[?] Rhyno retires?
[?] Honch, Xanatax, Morbos etc form Exiled Legion (EL) to do planes outside the domination of AoD/AL
[?] CT killed by AoD/AL
[?] Vosh joins Exiled Legion
[?] Plane of Hate opens
[18th Dec, 1999] AoD/AL kills Innoruuk
[December 1999] Ancient Souls formed under the leadership of Dundamoor. Eelyen and Locz other influentials.
[January 2000] Ancient Souls leadership passes on to Eelyen
[?] 3 day PoFear camp by HoS/EL/someone(DK?) to get CT succeeds, AoD/AL furious
[?] Delheru and Reia join Exiled Legion (EL) (!)
[?] Massive arguments about "farming" of Plane of Fear, with Dyvim, Zinf as the main attackers and EK on the defensive.
[?] Exiled Legion kills Innoruuk
[?] Exiled Legion kills Cazic Thule
[?] HoS kills CT
[?] HoS splits due to playtimes or whatever. What is now HoS is clearly dominated by asian players. Valdraug, Gazloy etc leading figures.
[?] Dol Amroth (DA) is formed by the Americans from HoS and the higher level players from Darkflame Knights, with Vyel, Nujai, Qadan, Filja as key figures originally.
[?] Mass exodus from Order of the Dragon, as Phad, Ashani, Heclrolv and others leave to help form Dol Amroth (DA), others join Exiled Legion (EL) and AoD.
[?] Darkflame Knights withdraw from the high end game.
[?] Exiled Legion kills Nagafen
[?] Dol Amroth kills Nagafen
[?] HoS kills Vox
[?] HoS kills Nagafen
[?] Sultania leads popular pick up raids to kill high end content. Huge conversation about official rotations and "planar calendars".
[?] Sultanias revolution overrun by the AoD/AL steamroller at Nagafen.
[?] Brotherhood of Steel and Souls of Relevance Merge to form Altered Destiny. Corona, Glayde etc as significants.
[?] Ancient Souls goes somewhere in here
[?] Krolins guild? Fear and Disorder or something
[?] Aegeis <Avatars of Discord> finishes the Fiery Avenger

[31st March 2000: RUINS OF KUNARK RELEASED] AOD/AL/EL - an alliance, clearly dominate.

[?] AL core of Zinf, Ryne, Moglit, Ghime, Strago(?) move to Veeshan to join FoH after being clearly ahead of the leveling curve on RN. Zinf delevels, but Ghime sells to Arktreod of AoD.
[?] Few EL and AoD groups race for content like Sebilis first.
[?] Asian retires
[?] Dyvims playtime reduces significantly.
[?] Feylin and Arkmaru argue about who hit 60 first.
[?] Delheru, Dyvim, Nails fade away during the summer 2001
[?] HoS kills Venril Sathir
[?] Fargus, Reeves, Aktar etc had their own guild (Axiom Shift I think) thing going, definitely badly placed here.
[?] The new Ghime has leveled to 60 and starts his "Ghime's club" which does deep Sebilis with the first lvl 60s on the server.
[?] AoD/AL and EL are both in fairly bad shape, and during a Chardok raid decide to unite forces.
[?] Altered Destiny (AD) allies with Dragon Knights (DK) to take out Trakanon
[?] Lots of older AoD/AL/EL members return to the game
[10th Sep, 2000] AD/DK kills Trakanon
[10th Sep, 2000] MythMakers, Circle of Sol and friends lead by Fargus, Aktar and Reeves defeats Plane of Sky island 7
[?] AoD/AL/EL kills Trakanon
[?] The new Ghime joins AoD
[?] Delheru joins AoD
[?] AoD/AL/EL and AD/DK negotiate a rotation, but the terms favor the more hardcore AoD/AL/EL and soon the rotation turns in to their domination
[?] AoD/AL/EL kills Venril Sathir
[?] AoD/AL/EL kills Silverwing
[?] EK kills Trakanon
[?] EK gets overrun by AoD/AL/EL in a race for Trakanon
[?] FA quests released (more on those elsewhere)
[?] Llew retires(?)

AoD/AL/EL got their share of targets but EK ended up reigning supreme during Kunark (I don't have the WHOLE history posted) due to having players from all over the world in their guild. Because of this they could raid at anytime of the day or night

hahaha of COURSE you are female! Not a doubt in my mind! High Five sister.

Oh how I miss Rodcet Nife. It's gone, and it's never coming back. I appreciate P99 for offering me as close as I'm going to get.

Get rid of the variance. Let us figure it out like we did in 1999. We can do it.

[Lyra]

India, there was a rotation. My memory is not very good, but this does sound pretty close to what happened later.

For the guy posting about the top guild on rodcet getting 90 percent of mobs before velious you are most defiantly wrong. Eastern keep got some, aod alliance got some, ancient souls some, tul Achron some, arirang some, dragon force some. You had 4 or 5 guilds constantly competing, yes trak was limited to ek, aod, and toward end ascent. Then when velious came ascent and aod alliance rotated ntov and sleeper, and later dol amroth and ek were added to rotation. It was not a forced rotation but the high end guilds worked together to not waste each others time. Rodcet characters were nimamok and later honch

[Tekman]

Holy shit that Rodcet history...

[Wudan]

/guildwar

let the greedy gear hoarders use their precious pixels in a real fight! End of problems.

Seriously....at least try it for a week! Let them deal with each other in game instead of RnF.

[Kagatob]

Been saying it before and I'll say it again. Get rid of FTE, that won't solve the problem but it will be the first step in the right direction.

/guildwar

That would do wonders as well.

[Herpa Derp]

Though the variance was a great proposal I just think it further decreases the likelihood of anyone other than poopsockers from seeing raid targets. If anything the spawn time should be increased or we should get something like the weekly reset, at least for raid mobs. That way they're all up at once and raid guilds will have a shot at some mobs because they'll all be up at once. I think that may be one of the best solutions because then people can plan for that if it's always going to be the same time for the reset.