Raid Changes

[godbox]

there is literally no way that you could make the raid scene worse. noone actually thinks varience gives smaller guilds a shot does it? set pops or varience w/ regular reset would at least give more of the server an opportunity to scramble for stuff while the big dogs figure out which they want to hit first.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

The problem with that is GuildA is completely capable of logging in a full raid force at all hours of the day. Guilds b-z are not lol. Variance does not play in our favor.

[Sirken]

Variance does not play in our favor.

i wholeheartedly disagree with this statement, but i've been wrong before. i'm pretty sure Rogean has posted somewhere about this already, i'll direct him to this thread so he can see you guys' opinions as well.

[Lazortag]

yes i read the original post. i'm thinking i didnt make my response clear enough. i'll try again.

lazortag, youre very right, your guild would have a better chance at raid targets that the top guild no longer wants/needs or considers a priority. and you may even sneak a VS, though they'd be far and few between.

down side is this, it would limit trak kills to the top guild, and as such, would limit VP to the top guild. 10 min is MORE than enough time for the top guild to camp out at ledge.

odds are the #2 guild would start locking down the raid mobs that they can take from the top guild. so most likely, you'd get even less VS kills than you do now.

Less VS kills than we get now? So you mean less than 1 over the span of 2 years? Oh no, anything but that!

Sarcasm aside, my point is that having mobs spawn separately from each other at random times of the day makes it easier for larger guilds to monopolize content. When things spawn simultaneously, smaller guilds get more chances at mobs than normal. For evidence of this fact, see: every single server reset that has ever happened on this server, and probably many on Live.

You might be right that Trak/VS are nearly impossible for casual guilds to kill on a server repop because the top guilds can be certain of when they will spawn. The thing is, they are nearly impossible for casual guilds to get on varianced spawns even when the top guilds don't know when they'll spawn, again, as evidenced by this server's entire history. When has a small guild ever killed Trak? We got close a few times, but it was either on a repop or when TMO was raid suspended. Smaller guilds don't have large enough raid forces to kill those mobs within the minute or so that they are alive after spawning, so I'd say our chances are just as good if not better if we know beforehand when they'll spawn. If our chances are worse, it's a wash, since those aren't a priority for us and our 18 man raid force at this time.

I should add that these simultaneous repops are good for GM's, too, because all the raiding is condensed into an hour or two, and there are usually less raid disputes, so it means you have less work to do over the week.

Let me ask you this: why do you think small guilds currently almost never get any mobs outside of server repops? Do you honestly think it's because of lack of skill, or because we just don't try hard enough? Or do you think it's more likely that waiting for an average of 48 hours for a small chance at pixels is a monumental waste of time?

EDIT:

also right now, some of the server resets already do repop all the raid mobs.

and i know some top guilds send out the batsignal any time the server comes down for any reason just in case there's a full respawn.

having it happen 100% of the time makes it more predictable, anything that's more predictable will be taken advantage of by which ever guild is currently at the top of the food chain.

the variance ONLY exists to give other guilds a shot at the raid mobs. if it didnt exist, then for example, if GuildA kills trak, the rest of the server only knows when trak is due if they can find out exactly when he died. with a variance, you only need a ball park idea of when the mob died to figure out the window. Furthermore, GuildA would know EXACTLY when to log in the raid force, as opposed to being at the mercy of a variance, like everyone else.

guilds with trackers/scouts and with mandatory batphones will always get to mobs before guilds that dont use these things, because they can mobilize faster.

Pretty much every content patch results in a full repop. It's not just the "big guilds" that send raid alerts and prepare for repops - we do it too. As for the variance existing to make things easier for the little guy, I will again direct you to this server's long history of the variance being extremely unfavorable to smaller guilds. If you think it should help us, why hasn't it? :p

edit again: just to be clear, I'm not saying "get rid of the variance entirely" (shortening it to +/- 12 hours would be tolerable), I'm saying simultaneous repops are best. They're also classic. Let's not try to fix what isn't broken.

[Nlaar]

In regards to Lazortag's latest post...

He did a great job highlighting this fact but let us reinforce...

There is a STAGGERING amount of historical evidence on P99 to support his latest post.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

agreed

Hi Nlaar, Rustytaco here. Long time no see

[Asher]

i wholeheartedly disagree with this statement, but i've been wrong before. i'm pretty sure Rogean has posted somewhere about this already, i'll direct him to this thread so he can see you guys' opinions as well.

Variance is in the favour of guilds who are willing to track mobs for long periods of time and have the numbers willing to be on call to field a strong attempt.

I strongly agree with everything Lazortag said.

/beats the dead horse further

Asher

[Ravager]

Isn't the reason TMO can steamroll most mobs on a repop, and in variance, a result of mass recruiting to deal with variance in the first place? Last night they simultaneously killed VS with 20 and Trak with 60 within moments of the server coming back up. Without variance, would their guild have been built big enough to log on 80 people at once?

[Rooj]

If anyone out there believes that the smaller guilds are out there claiming raid spawns even a little bit frequently, you are completely wrong. It's pretty obvious that there should be some changes.

Here's what I don't get, though. And you'll have to forgive me as I did not raid on Live back then, so I don't know what system was used there and how it relates/compares to what we have on P99. But 48+- hours window is absolutely insane, and ridiculous. Windows aren't meant to be like that. Windows are supposed to be small, a few hours at most. I think the highest a window should ever be is +- 3 hours, though 1.5 or even heck, -+ 30 minutes would be ideal. And then instead of having an even respawn time - 5 days, for example - you make it 5 days minus like 8 hours or so (112 hours in this scenario), to cause the mob to spawn at a different time of day each time. These are just my opinions, not really suggesting anything.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Isn't the reason TMO can steamroll most mobs on a repop, and in variance, a result of mass recruiting to deal with variance in the first place? Last night they simultaneously killed VS with 20 and Trak with 60 within moments of the server coming back up. Without variance, would their guild have been built big enough to log on 80 people at once?

We killed VS first then ported to EJ and ran to Trak. Trak was up for over 20 minutes.

We are running very high on membership right now. We pulled ~60 for most targets, but we went even higher in VP (We call this the "Phara`Dar is up" effect.)

[falkun]

Giegue is 100% correct.

Variance caters to massive guild sizes to allow you to log on a sufficient size at any hour.
Variance allows one guild to control every mob because it is statistically improbable that multiple targets will spawn at the same time, therefore forcing multiple forces that wish to compete into the same zone to fight for the same mob, instead of spreading them out amongst multiple targets.
Variance increases the effort required to obtain kills/pixels beyond the point that most guilds are willing to work, and beyond a classic amount of effort.
Variance caters to guilds large enough to track everything in window at the same time to know when they all spawn.
The amount of boss kills guilds smaller than the #1 guild obtain is empirically higher on simultaneous repops than during "normal" weeks, and the sample size is large enough to invalidate any theoretical advantages variance provides to smaller guilds.
Simultaneous repops historically reduce GM intervention because guilds simply move on to the next target instead of getting embroiled in a dispute.
Simultaneous repops reduce GM intervention because all the content is killed within 2 hours instead of spread out over the week and at all hours of the day.
Simultaneous repops are more classic than variance, especially to the extreme level P99 has taken variance (+/-48hrs instead of ~1hr).

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

We call this the "Phara`Dar is up" effect
lol, I like it.

[falkun]

Trak was up for over 20 minutes.

Xasten, don't you think there was some discussion about whether or not BDA would go for Trak last night?
Do you think TMO would have left Trak up if BDA was pre-camping on poop mt?
Think you can deduce why BDA didn't bother camping out at Trak :rolleyes:

[Frieza_Prexus]

Historically, small guilds get targets when they get a head start. Shortening the variance might help alleviate the headache of tracking, but a variance of a few hours will be catastrophic for smaller guilds. Larger guilds can easily prep around a very short variance, and there will be even more camping out at spawns. As it stands, we generally have to mobilize across the world from a central location.

However, repops and variance are two separate discussions.

I submit that (semi)regular repops are the best chance smaller guilds have to obtain high priority targets. Random unannounced repops will simply result in a batphone by all guilds, and the top guilds are clearly better at spontaneous mobilization. Pre-announce at least some (say, 2/3rds) of these repops at least 24 hours in advance. This will give smaller guilds a chance to camp out, choose targets, communicate/coordinate with other guilds and possibly form alliances.

Pre-notice gives people an entire day to move their character into position and an entire day to discuss exactly HOW the mob will be killed (the pull, strats, etc.) The biggest asset, however, is the triage and choosing of targets before hand. Imagine the following:

TMO will attempt to maximize its coverage starting, invariably, with VS and Trak (and Sev if it's convenient). This gives at least 20 minutes to other guilds to drop a target. We will periodically check with trackers the other targets and choose which to pursue.

Our general order of priority (NOT kill order,this is a DESIRE rank) is as follows:

VS
Trak
Draco
CT
Innoruuk
Faydedar
Efreeti Cycle
Severilious
Talendor
Nagafen
Gorenaire
Vox

If we see 40 people prepping for Talendor while we're pursuing Trak and VS, you can bet we'll instead head to another mob. Use the above information to inform your choices. Go for the Freeti cycle. Remember, if you kill Noble you are entitled to first engage on OoA for at least 20 minutes or first wipe.

The point is that with prior notice smaller guilds can prepare in a way that they ordinarily would not be able to. They can organize well in advance.

Lack of organization is the single biggest hurdle for small guilds getting targets.

[Ferok]

Giegue is 100% correct.

Variance caters to massive guild sizes to allow you to log on a sufficient size at any hour.
Variance allows one guild to control every mob because it is statistically improbable that multiple targets will spawn at the same time, therefore forcing multiple forces that wish to compete into the same zone to fight for the same mob, instead of spreading them out amongst multiple targets.
Variance increases the effort required to obtain kills/pixels beyond the point that most guilds are willing to work, and beyond a classic amount of effort.
Variance caters to guilds large enough to track everything in window at the same time to know when they all spawn.
The amount of boss kills guilds smaller than the #1 guild obtain is empirically higher on simultaneous repops than during "normal" weeks, and the sample size is large enough to invalidate any theoretical advantages variance provides to smaller guilds.
Simultaneous repops historically reduce GM intervention because guilds simply move on to the next target instead of getting embroiled in a dispute.
Simultaneous repops reduce GM intervention because all the content is killed within 2 hours instead of spread out over the week and at all hours of the day.
Simultaneous repops are more classic than variance, especially to the extreme level P99 has taken variance (+/-48hrs instead of ~1hr).


This is spot on. I'm not sure why the GM's are so insistent on Variance being helpful. Maybe in theory, but clearly that theory is wrong.

[Frieza_Prexus]

An ELIMINATED (as opposed to shortened) variance will be terrible in my opinion.

TMO has a spread sheet with every mob's death down to the second and sufficient force to engage multiple targets simultaneously. Cut the variance down, sure. Just don't kill it.

[Kraftwerk]

Why can't more people in TMO act like you Xasten, putting together clear discussion and being respectful and presenting a somewhat objective view. Not just flaming as hard as possible like their lives depend on it.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I still vote kill it. You guys can't spread yourselves too thin otherwise you run the risk of a wipe and allow BDA or someone else to slip in a trak kill or something. If we get simulated server resets then ur spawn time calculators are somewhat eliminated (Still good for 3 day spawn, etc.) and the game opens up for alot more of us to get at least 1 shot a week at a dragon, god, or mini boss. Hell, if another guild wa sup to the challenge they could even log at trak to attempt fte upon server coming back up.

[falkun]

Xasten, and Sirken, you cannot be more "catastrophic" than zero. Why are neither of you recognizing this? Giegue points it out every post.

Small guilds do not benefit from a head start, they benefit from not having to face off head-to-head, "If TMO is over there killing that mob, they cannot be over here killing the mob our guild is after."

You'll notice the other guilds got Inny, Maestro, Tal (attempt only?), Fay, and Gore. They got them because those mobs are lower on your priority list than VS or Trak. If you kill/prioritize in the order you posted (which I can believe), then the targets the other guilds got is nearly expected.

If the other guilds had further agreement among themselves, they may have even gotten additional kills. Three guilds wasting time around Talendor is stupid when other mobs are up, but BDA didn't recognize that Full Circle was there.

[Itap]

I agree with everything Giegue has said in his previous post


An ELIMINATED (as opposed to shortened) variance will be terrible in my opinion.

TMO has a spread sheet with every mob's death down to the second and sufficient force to engage multiple targets simultaneously. Cut the variance down, sure. Just don't kill it.

And this is why you guys dominate, TMO's organizational skills and ability to accumulate a raid force in minutes makes it hard to beat. Planned server resets will give the smaller/casual guilds a chance at raid targets less desired by TMO

[Cars]

- Lower Variance significantly
- Simulate patch day
- Have buff timers count down even well logged out or cancel entirely upon logging out.
- FTE shouts

Raid scene saved...

[Asher]

I still vote kill it. You guys can't spread yourselves too thin otherwise you run the risk of a wipe and allow BDA or someone else to slip in a trak kill or something. If we get simulated server resets then ur spawn time calculators are somewhat eliminated (Still good for 3 day spawn, etc.) and the game opens up for alot more of us to get at least 1 shot a week at a dragon, god, or mini boss. Hell, if another guild wa sup to the challenge they could even log at trak to attempt fte upon server coming back up.

I agree. The biggest factor in other guilds not making an attempt is because of the requirement for tracking respawns that has been created by this crazy long variance.

You remove the need for trackers and all of a sudden everyone knows when things are popping within a short window and others have a chance to compete the regular way with TMO, instead of their version of compete, which IMO is non classic, where we get trackers to deal with crazy huge variances, grow the guild to zerg numbers to always have been available to log in when bat phoned.

I look forward to regular classic competition as opposed to TMOs competition.

Asher

[Slave]

I actually had to re-read Lostprophets's post to see if you and him were talking about the same thing. Not trying to sound rude, but you do realize that server repops currently happen every time there's a patch, and that smaller guilds historically have much more success than with varianced spawns? I refer you to the example of last night where there was a full repop and we got Inny and Maestro, which is probably 2 more mobs than we would have gotten if we were resorting to poopsocking and pressing the track button for 96 hours. Sure we still get less mobs than TMO, but we also have about 1/4 of the raid force, so I'll take 2 mobs over none any day. I can't think of any full repop on this server (out of at least a dozen that have happened) where we didn't either get mobs, or get attempts at mobs - one time we even got VS which is pretty much impossible for a casual guild to do when he's on variance. You can try to argue that variance benefits smaller guilds, but there's this thing called "empirical evidence" that would like to have a word with you.

Confirmed sirken didn't read the post.

Current system is like 95% TMO. Repopping the whole server during primetime would be like 80% TMO maybe, and probably less depending on what targets people went after.

Giegue beat me to it. The top guild can poopsock their primary target every respawn, at least one other guild is going to get at least one other mob, which is above the average for most "normal" weeks.

In regards to Lazortag's latest post...

He did a great job highlighting this fact but let us reinforce...

There is a STAGGERING amount of historical evidence on P99 to support his latest post.

Variance is in the favour of guilds who are willing to track mobs for long periods of time and have the numbers willing to be on call to field a strong attempt.

I strongly agree with everything Lazortag said.

/beats the dead horse further

Asher

If anyone out there believes that the smaller guilds are out there claiming raid spawns even a little bit frequently, you are completely wrong. It's pretty obvious that there should be some changes.

Here's what I don't get, though. And you'll have to forgive me as I did not raid on Live back then, so I don't know what system was used there and how it relates/compares to what we have on P99. But 48+- hours window is absolutely insane, and ridiculous. Windows aren't meant to be like that. Windows are supposed to be small, a few hours at most. I think the highest a window should ever be is +- 3 hours, though 1.5 or even heck, -+ 30 minutes would be ideal. And then instead of having an even respawn time - 5 days, for example - you make it 5 days minus like 8 hours or so (112 hours in this scenario), to cause the mob to spawn at a different time of day each time. These are just my opinions, not really suggesting anything.

Giegue is 100% correct.

Variance caters to massive guild sizes to allow you to log on a sufficient size at any hour.
Variance allows one guild to control every mob because it is statistically improbable that multiple targets will spawn at the same time, therefore forcing multiple forces that wish to compete into the same zone to fight for the same mob, instead of spreading them out amongst multiple targets.
Variance increases the effort required to obtain kills/pixels beyond the point that most guilds are willing to work, and beyond a classic amount of effort.
Variance caters to guilds large enough to track everything in window at the same time to know when they all spawn.
The amount of boss kills guilds smaller than the #1 guild obtain is empirically higher on simultaneous repops than during "normal" weeks, and the sample size is large enough to invalidate any theoretical advantages variance provides to smaller guilds.
Simultaneous repops historically reduce GM intervention because guilds simply move on to the next target instead of getting embroiled in a dispute.
Simultaneous repops reduce GM intervention because all the content is killed within 2 hours instead of spread out over the week and at all hours of the day.
Simultaneous repops are more classic than variance, especially to the extreme level P99 has taken variance (+/-48hrs instead of ~1hr).


This is spot on. I'm not sure why the GM's are so insistent on Variance being helpful. Maybe in theory, but clearly that theory is wrong.

When this many normally argumentative personalities agree on something here, extreme note should be taken.

Can you hear us Sirken? Can you hear us, Rogean? Nilbog, where are the changes? Nobody has wanted this system for a year. Enough is enough with the variance now. I don't understand how this isn't first on the list of changes.

This cycle has happened so many times... eager new group starts play, grows up, starts raiding. Most soon quit in disgust except those who join TMO, perpetuating the problem. Variance is strangling the life out of the raid scene on this server.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Xasten, and Sirken, you cannot be more "catastrophic" than zero. Why are neither of you recognizing this? Giegue points it out every post.

Small guilds do not benefit from a head start, they benefit from not having to face off head-to-head, "If TMO is over there killing that mob, they cannot be over here killing the mob our guild is after."

You'll notice the other guilds got Inny, Maestro, Tal (attempt only?), Fay, and Gore. They got them because those mobs are lower on your priority list than VS or Trak. If you kill/prioritize in the order you posted (which I can believe), then the targets the other guilds got is nearly expected.

If the other guilds had further agreement among themselves, they may have even gotten additional kills. Three guilds wasting time around Talendor is stupid when other mobs are up, but BDA didn't recognize that Full Circle was there.

I suppose I should elaborate. I am (ass)uming a few things. First, I seem to recall the server staff saying that WEEKLY repops will not happen because it would introduce far too many spawns.

Yes, if repops happened so often as to prevent "spawn timer drift" then clearly smaller guilds would benefit because we would be backlogged and inundated with too many spawns. However, once drift begins to occur, we have enough members to effectively kill three (maybe more) targets simultaneously. Keep in mind, if we know when mobs will pop we can plan around that VERY effectively.

I am further assuming that it is better to open a larger variety of mobs to smaller guilds than the same mobs over and over. (Vox/Gore would never be touched if we ONLY had simultaneous repops/no variance). Granted, under either case VS and Trak will be on lockdown.

However, I freely concede that some mobs are better than no mobs flat out. And, with NO spawn drift and NO variance, some mobs will invariably be killed by smaller guilds. However, I don't think that is likely to occur, thus my hesitation to eliminate the variance.

I simply think that with the repop methodology I proposed, under my above assumptions, a variance would be better than no variance.

[falkun]

- FTE shouts

Please explain how recording an event for all to see is more easily abusable than the mechanic being recorded?

Not to discount that FTE shout is a good idea in itself, but the responses to this are correct. LvL 1 gnome enchanter, sitting down, first in zone, sitting there for days. Should that really be the deciding factor of a claim?

If you're L1 can live long enough for the rest of your raid force to engage, it's the same as it is now. Monk/necro/SK lays FD under mob, raid force gets prepped, FDer stands up, raid force engages. If another raid force attempts to compete, the FDer stands up earlier. How is that any different than a L1 enchanter sitting on spawn? O wait, the FDer will survive the spawn and (assuming they pop up at the right time) will guarantee FTE over the competing raid force while the L1 enchanter is squashed like a bug and the raid mob goes back into seek mode.

This is taken into consideration in the raid changes I have proposed. When Rogean and I are in agreement, it will be discussed with the staff, then I will outline it to players to discuss.

Coming soon.

This is 3 months old now...any news?

[Writ3r]

Implement some of these fixes and then go back to Ambrotos'/Nilbog's rule set of there being NO trains allowed in zones such as Hate/Fear and the raid seen will be vastly improved by far. It will improve the state of those zones while increasing the competition within them rather than the petition. Should also force communication between guilds going for those targets simultaneously as it will require more time to down the targets in those zones allowing for other targets to remain up (if a simultaneous repop).

[Frieza_Prexus]

Also, as a follow up:

I think the biggest thing that could be done, BY FAR, is simultaneous repops that are announced at least 24 hours in advance.

I will acknowledge that with only ONE uber-guild no variance might yield better results. Assuming spawn timers do NOT drift (for whatever reason), no variance might be superior.

However, with two (or more) uber guilds a variance will yield better results. The variance was initially implemented because of the socking issues and it did solve them fairly well. It is obviously not without problems, but the question is where do we emphasize efficiency?

Do we promote a stable environment should two big guilds exist? (Variance)

Or do we promote a stable environment where many smaller guilds can flourish despite the presence of an uber guild? (no variance AND controlling for spawn timer drift)

P.S. Non-authoritative FTE shouts for informational purposes only would be extremely convenient.

[Lazortag]

I'm glad so many people agree with what I said, it makes me feel all warm inside.

As for this:

Historically, small guilds get targets when they get a head start. Shortening the variance might help alleviate the headache of tracking, but a variance of a few hours will be catastrophic for smaller guilds. Larger guilds can easily prep around a very short variance, and there will be even more camping out at spawns. As it stands, we generally have to mobilize across the world from a central location.

However, repops and variance are two separate discussions.

I submit that (semi)regular repops are the best chance smaller guilds have to obtain high priority targets. Random unannounced repops will simply result in a batphone by all guilds, and the top guilds are clearly better at spontaneous mobilization. Pre-announce at least some (say, 2/3rds) of these repops at least 24 hours in advance. This will give smaller guilds a chance to camp out, choose targets, communicate/coordinate with other guilds and possibly form alliances.

Pre-notice gives people an entire day to move their character into position and an entire day to discuss exactly HOW the mob will be killed (the pull, strats, etc.) The biggest asset, however, is the triage and choosing of targets before hand. Imagine the following:

TMO will attempt to maximize its coverage starting, invariably, with VS and Trak (and Sev if it's convenient). This gives at least 20 minutes to other guilds to drop a target. We will periodically check with trackers the other targets and choose which to pursue.

Our general order of priority (NOT kill order,this is a DESIRE rank) is as follows:

VS
Trak
Draco
CT
Innoruuk
Faydedar
Efreeti Cycle
Severilious
Talendor
Nagafen
Gorenaire
Vox

If we see 40 people prepping for Talendor while we're pursuing Trak and VS, you can bet we'll instead head to another mob. Use the above information to inform your choices. Go for the Freeti cycle. Remember, if you kill Noble you are entitled to first engage on OoA for at least 20 minutes or first wipe.

The point is that with prior notice smaller guilds can prepare in a way that they ordinarily would not be able to. They can organize well in advance.

Lack of organization is the single biggest hurdle for small guilds getting targets.

I object to this idea that we're just not organized. I posted almost that exact kill order months ago on the divinity forums. We prepare in advance of every patch and try to discuss which mob to go after, taking into account what TMO/BDA's priorities are, which we inferred from other posts you guys have made. Sure we only got 2 mobs, but good organization will only help a raid force of 18 people so much (I don't say this resentfully, you guys worked hard to have the raid force you have, but essentializing small guilds as being disorganized and unskilled is just silly when there are other explanations for why they don't do as well).

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

There can still be 2 bigs guilds with no variance. Many servers on live were like that. Of course one will always be bigger and better but with no variance if TMO gets too greedy and BDA or another guild choses to rise up and poopsock trak in full force while TMO cuts themselves into chunks to snag more targets they would then risk losing one of their highest priority targets. Furthermore, if poopsocking became a huge issue again and the GMs just left it to the players to resolve, it might finally make guilds work together to smooth the endgame out for all.

[Splorf22]

Just to beat a dead horse I also think Sirken is dead wrong, for two huge reasons:

#1. Casual guilds do not want to track shit for 96 hours. I know all the TMO guys like to brag about their great family/social lives, but the reality is in total that guild probably put in 500 hours of mindnumblingly boring 'wait-for-raid-mob-to-pop-while-watching-dvd' per week. I don't want to do that, and the majority of P1999 does not want to do that, because it is a huge waste of time.

#2. Because of #1, Casual guilds have very little experience at mobilization. Sure, TMO has a huge advantage there because they have practice and tons of spare accounts that they have purchased with all the pp they get from farming the raid mobs. I guarantee that if linked respawns are limited, the casual guilds will start putting a lot more time into resist gear, WC caps, OT hammers, and all around getting faster and mobilizing. Plus, TMO can't camp out everywhere.

Overall I find it hilarious that you are talking about how variance is there for the smaller guilds when under normal circumstances TMO gets 90% of raid targets, BDA gets 10%, and everyone else gets 0. In other words, linked respawns can hardly be worse than the current system.

TL;DR: How about instead of worrying about the freaking compass you guys fix the non-classic raid scene that literally no one on the server likes?

[falkun]

I suppose I should elaborate. I am (ass)uming a few things. First, I seem to recall the server staff saying that WEEKLY repops will not happen because it would introduce far too many spawns.
TMO is already selling many BIS items, and the rest of the server has seen too few to even have their most dedicated members geared. How would "too many spawns" hurt anyone other than TMO's market value of items? We're all playing a 13 year old game, the "haves" and the "have nots" can be left in 1999.
Yes, if repops happened so often as to prevent "spawn timer drift" then clearly smaller guilds would benefit because we would be backlogged and inundated with too many spawns. However, once drift begins to occur, we have enough members to effectively kill three (maybe more) targets simultaneously. Keep in mind, if we know when mobs will pop we can plan around that VERY effectively.
Ok, then you'd have a reason to open up recruiting again: recruit until you can down all raid content simultaneously. You already possess the largest L60/125+MR force on the server, why not get larger? Massive guild size has been your go-to solution since you merged with DA, and this would make that solution even more applicable!
I am further assuming that it is better to open a larger variety of mobs to smaller guilds than the same mobs over and over. (Vox/Gore would never be touched if we ONLY had simultaneous repops/no variance). Granted, under either case VS and Trak will be on lockdown.
Some mobs is better than no mobs. And if TMO had Trak and VS every week, but lost the others due to other guilds during simultaneous respawn, that would provide bargaining power for target swapping (rotation) to the smaller guilds. Or TMO would get bored of going for the same targets every week, also providing bargaining power for the smaller guilds. Or TMO would get bored, which would allow other forces to kill new mobs (only because TMO has already killed everything possible in current content).
However, I freely concede that some mobs are better than no mobs flat out. And, with NO spawn drift and NO variance, some mobs will invariably be killed by smaller guilds. However, I don't think that is likely to occur, thus my hesitation to eliminate the variance.
According to giegue, content patches on Live were about once every 1.5 weeks on average. Why not have every other cycle be a full respawn, similar to classic?
I simply think that with the repop methodology I proposed, under my above assumptions, a variance would be better than no variance.
If I had to choose between simultaneous respawn and variance, I'd take SR every day of the week.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If I had to choose between simultaneous respawn and variance, I'd take SR every day of the week.

In this, we agree.

Also, to Giegue, I do not mean to imply to all smaller guilds are disorganized. Divinity is clearly well-organized.

However, it is my general impression that many of the smaller guilds are disorganized when it comes to raid content. In any case, my whole reason for bringing this up was to simply point out that pre-announcing repops gives MORE prep time for smaller guilds. TMO is fully prepped for a repop within 30 minutes. Perhaps I should have said some some guilds are simply more organized.

In any case, I simply noted the pre-announced repops would go a long way into leveling the playing field for any guild NOT as previously organized as the competition.

[Daldolma]

The raid scene is broken. One guild, playing by non-classic rules, dominates in a fashion that never existed in classic. The solution seems pretty simple to me. Restore classic rules. If we're seriously going to remove minor conveniences like compasses and item details in the interest of reverting to classic, how can you possibly let the entire end-game be dictated by non-classic rules?

If TMO still dominates 90% of content under classic rules, great. If classic rules suck, people can go play on a non-classic server. Live up to the mission of the server and restore classic variance.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

In this, we agree. Also, to Giegue, I do not mean to imply to all smaller guilds are disorganized. Divinity is clearly well-organized. However, it is my general impression that many of the smaller guilds are disorganized when it comes to raid content. In any case, my whole reason for bringing this up was to simply point out that pre-announcing repops gives MORE prep time for smaller guilds. TMO is fully prepped for a repop within 30 minutes. Perhaps I should have said some some guilds are simply more organized. In any case, I simply noted the pre-announced repops would go a long way into leveling the playing field for any guild NOT as previously organized as the competition. And all those small guilds will remain unoragnized if things don't change so that they have a shot one or twice a week to work on mobilization, organization, and strategy. Eliminating variance will give the small guilds those shots.

[Picked]

I'm glad so many people agree with what I said, it makes me feel all warm inside.

As for this:
I object to this idea that we're just not organized. I posted almost that exact kill order months ago on the divinity forums. We prepare in advance of every patch and try to discuss which mob to go after, taking into account what TMO/BDA's priorities are, which we inferred from other posts you guys have made. Sure we only got 2 mobs, but good organization will only help a raid force of 18 people so much (I don't say this resentfully, you guys worked hard to have the raid force you have, but essentializing small guilds as being disorganized and unskilled is just silly when there are other explanations for why they don't do as well).

TMO and BDA aren't using methods any other guild doesn't have, they are simply more dedicated. They drop everything they are doing instantly, have a plan worked out to get everyone to the target as quickly as possible. And last but not least have really well geared folk where it doesn't take as many people to take the target down.

Any guild that raids has a tracker of some sort that can sit in zone just like they do. And any guild can recruit porting classes to get this force where they need to go just as quickly. The only advantage those guilds have is dedication.

[Nlaar]

TL;DR: How about instead of worrying about the freaking compass you guys fix the non-classic raid scene that literally no one on the server likes?

Have my babies.

[Itap]

TL;DR: How about instead of worrying about the freaking compass you guys fix the non-classic raid scene that literally no one on the server likes except TMO?

Fixed

[Ferok]

The only advantage those guilds have is dedication.

While that's true, this non-classic system plays right into the hands of their dedication.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Heh Itap, I bet TMO doesn't entirely favor the variance either. At least the ones that spend time tracking. The ones that claim they want competition should be all for removing variance as well. Doesn't get much more competitive than that.

[Razdeline]

Top guild would log out buffed at atleast one raid mob (maybe more) before server comes down.

top guild would batphone when the server came down to have everyone ready to log in.

top guild would zerg desired raid mobs as soon as server comes up.

all other guilds would lose 100% of the time.


people can complain about variance sucking all they want. fact is, they are arguing against their best interests unless they are in the top guild.

Any other guild can do a batphone when a raid mob respawns.

Any guild can log out at desired raid mob.

All other guilds wouldn't loose, because all they have to do is get lucky with FTE. (and beleive me, it's not hard)

Variance needs to be removed, for so many other ways. Guilds like TMO and BDA have the time to exploit other peoples time on the server. That's how they win. By removing variance you put everyone on a more balanced playing field.

[Razdeline]

Shit if removing variance doesn't work, you can always put it back in.

[Daldolma]

Or just put in instances. That's as classic as the current system and people would like it a lot more.

Don't understand why there is so much staff reluctance to revert to classic. The server clearly wants it.

[godbox]

people misplace there anger towards tmo like they are fucked for stayin on top. I agree with geegos very well thought out argument. but alot of people are mad that these guys stay on top of a system that really is a "there can be only one" system

[sulious]

Not classic so remove it.

[Rooj]

TMO and BDA aren't using methods any other guild doesn't have

Wrong. A TMO member mentions having 80 people online after the server came up. This is Everquest, the mobs don't really require strategies as there aren't a lot of mechanics involved - you can just throw a bajillion dudes at any mob and win every time.

[Autotune]

take 96 hour window and make it 18hrs.

add bi weekly repops

make p99 fun, give people more time to actually play everquest rather than play track retardedly large useless 96hr windowquest.

seriously. Variance isn't a bad idea, 96hour variance is just horrible. It solves nothing.

no variance problem = 96hour variance problem. Just one problem is on the other side of the spectrum in color.

on one hand everyone wants to poopsock and the other, no one wants to play.

People have been saying this for years and sadly none of the people that can make a difference realizes the system isn't even close to being as refined as it could be.

Variance is broken, fix it.

[Lostprophets]

Variance needs to be removed, for so many other ways. Guilds like TMO and BDA have the time to exploit other peoples time on the server. That's how they win. By removing variance you put everyone on a more balanced playing field.

Q4t.

No offense Raz, but IB was the ones that got the Variance in tact to begin with. before your time on p99? They are the founders of the variance.

now that they are gone, 80+% of the server wants it GONE as it DOESN'T benefit anyone but the BIG Guilds.

That is my suggestion to make it more like classic.

[Kraftwerk]

take 96 hour window and make it 18hrs.

add bi weekly repops

make p99 fun, give people more time to actually play everquest rather than play track retardedly large useless 96hr windowquest.

seriously. Variance isn't a bad idea, 96hour variance is just horrible. It solves nothing.

no variance problem = 96hour variance problem. Just one problem is on the other side of the spectrum in color.

on one hand everyone wants to poopsock and the other, no one wants to play.

People have been saying this for years and sadly none of the people that can make a difference realizes the system isn't even close to being as refined as it could be.

Variance is broken, fix it.

You know there is something seriously flawed in the system when I find myself agreeing with a post from Autotune.

And I'm in BDA.

[Nerosys]

Historically, small guilds get targets when they get a head start. Shortening the variance might help alleviate the headache of tracking, but a variance of a few hours will be catastrophic for smaller guilds. Larger guilds can easily prep around a very short variance, and there will be even more camping out at spawns. As it stands, we generally have to mobilize across the world from a central location.

However, repops and variance are two separate discussions.

I submit that (semi)regular repops are the best chance smaller guilds have to obtain high priority targets. Random unannounced repops will simply result in a batphone by all guilds, and the top guilds are clearly better at spontaneous mobilization. Pre-announce at least some (say, 2/3rds) of these repops at least 24 hours in advance. This will give smaller guilds a chance to camp out, choose targets, communicate/coordinate with other guilds and possibly form alliances.

Pre-notice gives people an entire day to move their character into position and an entire day to discuss exactly HOW the mob will be killed (the pull, strats, etc.) The biggest asset, however, is the triage and choosing of targets before hand. Imagine the following:

TMO will attempt to maximize its coverage starting, invariably, with VS and Trak (and Sev if it's convenient). This gives at least 20 minutes to other guilds to drop a target. We will periodically check with trackers the other targets and choose which to pursue.

Our general order of priority (NOT kill order,this is a DESIRE rank) is as follows:

VS
Trak
Draco
CT
Innoruuk
Faydedar
Efreeti Cycle
Severilious
Talendor
Nagafen
Gorenaire
Vox

If we see 40 people prepping for Talendor while we're pursuing Trak and VS, you can bet we'll instead head to another mob. Use the above information to inform your choices. Go for the Freeti cycle. Remember, if you kill Noble you are entitled to first engage on OoA for at least 20 minutes or first wipe.

The point is that with prior notice smaller guilds can prepare in a way that they ordinarily would not be able to. They can organize well in advance.

Lack of organization is the single biggest hurdle for small guilds getting targets.



This is well explained and i think you captured exactly what the problem is for the smaller guilds to at-least get a taste of some mobs and actually able to start organizing things. 48hr variance only helps raiding guilds who mostly have lvl 60's and are really playing to raid, the devs have to realize this i find it really hard to believe that its that hard to grasp.

[Ravager]

Or just put in instances.

The best raid in any video game ever was instanced.

http://lparchive.org/Quest-for-Glory-1-5/Update%20125/31-ch2925.jpg

[Picked]

Wrong. A TMO member mentions having 80 people online after the server came up. This is Everquest, the mobs don't really require strategies as there aren't a lot of mechanics involved - you can just throw a bajillion dudes at any mob and win every time.

You just prove my point even further by saying that. The sheer fact that there is no real strats to these guys other than resists/zerging should make it easier for all guilds to kill.

There are many guilds on the server capable of raiding these targets. There just isn't the dedication. What's keeping other guilds from having sufficient members on after server reset? Dedication

[Ferok]

There are many guilds on the server capable of raiding these targets. There just isn't the dedication. What's keeping other guilds from having sufficient members on after server reset? Dedication

But that's just the point, isn't it? Server reset isn't the problem (apparently). It's the rest of the time.

[Razdeline]

Q4t.

No offense Raz, but IB was the ones that got the Variance in tact to begin with. before your time on p99? They are the founders of the variance.

now that they are gone, 80+% of the server wants it GONE as it DOESN'T benefit anyone but the BIG Guilds.

That is my suggestion to make it more like classic.

We had a discussion about it on our website and it turned into a pretty good argument. Beleive me, IB/TMO/BDA do not like poopsocking or tracking mobs for endless hours. Tune variance down a bit (as stealin suggested) or do away with it and see what happens. Everyone wins. The big and the little guys.

[Splorf22]

You just prove my point even further by saying that. The sheer fact that there is no real strats to these guys other than resists/zerging should make it easier for all guilds to kill.

There are many guilds on the server capable of raiding these targets. There just isn't the dedication. What's keeping other guilds from having sufficient members on after server reset? Dedication

Sure. So why are we intentionally creating mechanics where only people who want to devote their lives to P1999 can get raid mobs at all? Especially when it isn't even classic?

If it were up to me, I'd do:

1. Reduce all 7-day-spawn raid drops by 50%
2. Have a guaranteed respawn of all such mobs every Saturday at 3PM EST
3. Have a random respawn of all such mobs 1x per week with a serverwide broadcast (= no tracking)
4. Same thing for 3-day spawns.

But I've said this a thousand times before.

[Daldolma]

Why are we proposing intricate and novel non-classic solutions to a problem that was created by an intricate and novel non-classic deviation?

The problem is that it's not classic. The solution is to make it classic. If people don't like classic, then obviously this isn't the server for them.

Can someone explain why classic is a bad idea on a server with the stated goal of reproducing classic, 1999 conditions?

[Lostprophets]

Why are we proposing intricate and novel non-classic solutions to a problem that was created by an intricate and novel non-classic deviation?

The problem is that it's not classic. The solution is to make it classic. If people don't like classic, then obviously this isn't the server for them.

Can someone explain why classic is a bad idea on a server with the stated goal of reproducing classic, 1999 conditions?

my suggestion is as as classic as we can get unless we're patching once a week. I'm not saying modifying variance I'm saying have a simulated weekly shut down on varying days (one per week) to be ideally like an emulation to a server patch day on live.

[SirAlvarex]

I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but simulated repops every 2 weeks also adds another nice feature:

What if a bunch of TMO needs stuff off the "lesser" kills like Maestro or Inny? Sure, they could 2 group them, but there is a chance that they may decide to "pass" on contesting VS or Trak one repop and let a "lesser" guild have a chance.

One of the major butt-hurt issues with variance is someone has to track. So if TMO is tracking for 70 straight hours, of course they'll be pissed if someone else wants to get a shot when they've only been tracking 65 hours. If everyone knew when it'd pop? They could rotate.

We already have an example of this with Ragefire. Sure it makes sense to rotate him since epic'd clerics are awesome for all, but he also drops some amazing fire-resist armor (or atleast amazing IMO). But people still honored it.

So yeah, I think smaller variance with a bi-weekly repop will actually lower the stress of "must kill now!" to an extent where everyone won't have disdain for a high level guild that might be willing to share.

Just my 2 coppers.

[Llabak]

TL;DR: How about instead of worrying about the freaking compass you guys fix the non-classic raid scene that literally no one on the server likes?

Yah. There's so much that's not classic on this server, it boggles the mind that something like the compass would show up on the list of priorities at all.

[pasi]

96 hour variance is the best thing to happen to those of us who know we're content with waiting all night for VS to spawn, but not 6 days. It releases EQ's strangling grasp on our lives and let's us rejoice in the fact that although we're pretty big fuckin' losers, we're not nearly as pitiful as the people who are currently raiding Project1999.

TLDR: 96 hour variance is a good thing for those who have some form of responsibilities, but are weak of will.

[Slave]

Slave: Removing Variance is not an option, anyone that's been around this server since before it was implemented can tell you why. And it certainly will not alleviate the dominance of top guilds over the rest of them.. it will make matters worse, only it will be a clusterfuck for the staff as well.

I feel this is a bit arbitrary considering the massive amount of evidence associated with the exact opposite of this sentiment.

[Daldolma]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation.

It absolutely would alleviate the dominance of the top guilds, by the way, if implemented by FTE rather than first raid force. TMO can be as big and mobile and "determined" as they want. If 150 people from 5 different guilds are sitting on VS's spawn point hoping for FTE, TMO's odds are pretty crappy relative to the 90% they're claiming now. Ditto for every other mob.

Obviously that scenario would be an absolute mess, but that's the point. Things have to get bad before they can get better. EQ Classic raiding worked because everyone had the power to make life miserable for everyone else unless there was at least some degree of cooperation. That created a community. The current rules minimize friction and make GMs' lives easier, but they do that by creating a bastardized version of EQ raiding. Most raid mobs are uncontested because the current rules just threw progressively more ridiculous obstacles in the way of raid mobs until only one guild was willing to keep trying.

I don't see what the issue would be with classic variance and FTE rules. If you're worried about disputes, implement a FTE-shout. I don't understand how there can be any disagreement that the current raiding scene is broken. There's only one raiding guild, and they had 77 members at an uncontested raid last night. Does that sound classic to anyone?

[Nlaar]

bump for great thread.

[Splorf22]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation.

This is actually a pretty reasonable idea; I'm surprised no one has pointed this out before.

All things being equal though I think racing is more fun than rotations. Its just that racing in the same zone doesn't work very well.

[Daldolma]

Racing is definitely more fun -- it's just not feasible. With variance, an enormous guild will emerge and absorb its way to domination until there's really no competition left. Size rules. We've seen that play out. Without variance, a mess in the endgame would inevitably lead to rotations between a handful of capable, mid-sized guilds.

The only solutions to allow racing and competition would be totally foreign to classic EQ and would change the game itself. PvP in raid areas is the best idea I've heard, but that's not classic blue EverQuest. It would be a different game. Allowing training might help create some competition, but then you have to deal with griefers that are just training endlessly for the sake of ruining an entire guild's day.

[Lostprophets]

I understand the staffs debunkle here. but we're currently living in a separate era of P99 than it was back in 2009-2010. Back then it was IB Vs Transcendence with a Splash of Divinity there WAS a server raid rotation, and it worked fine, and no disrespect but the way I remember it IB was butt-hurt so bad that they didn't get all the pixels they got this variance, not the server...after that It mutated into a big IB Vs DA Poop sock session, with other raiding guilds just getting planar armor and very luckilly getting a dragon/god/demi verrrrrrry rarely....like 1 in 4~ months.

I have been here since 09 myself, I can't honestly make one real complaint about the server other than the variance being a nightmare. It really needs to be greatly taken in consideration upon the player bases comments, and polls. 80+% of us want it gone.

If we randomly repop the server once a week like i mentioned at the beginning of the thread (and keep Draco/Maestro/Other 3 dayers on 3 day timers following their deaths), the lesser guilds WOULD have a chance at getting things, and would be content with that...Currently, we cannot.

Why?

This is a 13 year old game on an emulated server and as much as we all love and appreciate what the staff are doing..most people have jobs and lives and cant live around a bat phone or sitting around tracking a mob 24/7-365. Currently there is Two guilds and ONLY two guilds able to do this due to their freakishly large member base. and that results in what you guys don't want as quoted By Rogeans quote a few posts ago.. "alleviate the dominance of top guilds over the rest of them". thats what's happening now.

We gotta have lives, and have fun but, we all gotta have balance and not all day every day EQ.

[Nlaar]

One huge difference that I've witnessed on p99 compared to my eqlive server experience is the massive amounts of players per raiding guild.

On classic live, I'm not sure if it was the inter-guild conflicts, lack of enough loot to go around, or generally wanting to compete, but there were never guilds this large.


Why so large, raid guilds?




The answers may be found within this thread.

Spoiler: Large variances => Large tracking jobs => Large guilds.

[Nirgon]

The compass and pet window needed to go. Quick fixes to make the server much more classic.

[falkun]

Spoiler: Large variances => Large tracking jobs => Large guilds.

Its less about the tracking and more about being able to mobilize a kill-capable raid force at any hour of the day. Trak at 3AM on a Saturday night, we got this! CT at 2:45PM on a Thursday, we got this! I definitely remember being on Live and going "well, its midnight, but High Priest is still up. Good luck rest of server, this guild is calling it a night!"

[Writ3r]

Mostly the reason variance got put in is because there was more than the 2 guilds finally competing for raid targets way back when and a few select individuals threw hissy fits aka the dawn of the first rule lawyers to get this enacted so they could benefit themselves/guild and horde loot for their RMT transactions.

Variance never helped anything other than the pockets of a few individuals which i am assuming still remains the case otherwise with this much of the populace speaking out it would indeed be removed to cater to the CLASSIC experience. Not to mention improve the overall enjoyment of the majority actually playing the game.

It is just getting ridiculous how contradictory the statements of the staff have been over the course of time especially within this particular issue. Nilbog needs to listen to his own intuition and close out these outside influences who want to please a select minority since after all it is HIS project and i know he leans more towards cooperation, healthy community, and CLASSIC situations in game.

[Asher]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation.

It absolutely would alleviate the dominance of the top guilds, by the way, if implemented by FTE rather than first raid force. TMO can be as big and mobile and "determined" as they want. If 150 people from 5 different guilds are sitting on VS's spawn point hoping for FTE, TMO's odds are pretty crappy relative to the 90% they're claiming now. Ditto for every other mob.

Obviously that scenario would be an absolute mess, but that's the point. Things have to get bad before they can get better. EQ Classic raiding worked because everyone had the power to make life miserable for everyone else unless there was at least some degree of cooperation. That created a community. The current rules minimize friction and make GMs' lives easier, but they do that by creating a bastardized version of EQ raiding. Most raid mobs are uncontested because the current rules just threw progressively more ridiculous obstacles in the way of raid mobs until only one guild was willing to keep trying.

I don't see what the issue would be with classic variance and FTE rules. If you're worried about disputes, implement a FTE-shout. I don't understand how there can be any disagreement that the current raiding scene is broken. There's only one raiding guild, and they had 77 members at an uncontested raid last night. Does that sound classic to anyone?

Well said.

Asher

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Poop-socking is far better for server health than one mega-guild dominating content by perma-tracking 96 hour windows and having 30 raiders available at any time of any day. But poop-socking could be solved, too. Instead of the silly "first raid force" rule that resulted in hours upon hours of poop-socking, just make it FTE. It will take guilds 30 minutes to arrive, buff, and wait on a pop. Every guild that wants a shot can show up and pray for FTE, same as everyone else. After a few weeks of that absolute misery, you'd have a rotation. It absolutely would alleviate the dominance of the top guilds, by the way, if implemented by FTE rather than first raid force. TMO can be as big and mobile and "determined" as they want. If 150 people from 5 different guilds are sitting on VS's spawn point hoping for FTE, TMO's odds are pretty crappy relative to the 90% they're claiming now. Ditto for every other mob. Obviously that scenario would be an absolute mess, but that's the point. Things have to get bad before they can get better. EQ Classic raiding worked because everyone had the power to make life miserable for everyone else unless there was at least some degree of cooperation. That created a community. The current rules minimize friction and make GMs' lives easier, but they do that by creating a bastardized version of EQ raiding. Most raid mobs are uncontested because the current rules just threw progressively more ridiculous obstacles in the way of raid mobs until only one guild was willing to keep trying. I don't see what the issue would be with classic variance and FTE rules. If you're worried about disputes, implement a FTE-shout. I don't understand how there can be any disagreement that the current raiding scene is broken. There's only one raiding guild, and they had 77 members at an uncontested raid last night. Does that sound classic to anyone? This is exactly what I've been trying to get across. It'll be a huge mess at first but it wouldn't take long for the players to get sick of it and work together to make the things better.

[arsenalpow]

If you want change boycott TMO.

Do not heal, buff, rez, port, buy-from, sell-to, communicate-with anyone that is tagged TMO. Period. Anytime you help TMO in any way you are condoning their attitude towards the rest of the server and the unethical actions they take.

Let TMO sustain themselves as a separate entity apart from the rest of the p99 community because TMO has no use for the rest of us.

Every. Single. Guild. On the server is willing to come to the table for the betterment of the server, except TMO. That speaks for itself.

Some of you may counter with "we'll not everyone in TMO is a dbag" and that's a perfectly true statement, but those upstanding individuals don't challenge their own leadership when shady shit happens. Staying silent to preserve the status quo (keeping the pixels flowing) is all that matters to them, the rest of us can fuck off. So you want to experience Veeshan's Peak? Gotta kill Trak first, good luck with that. Even if TMO wipes at Trak and your guild does kill it they FTE rules lawyer you out of the kill. Even if you do get enough keys to mount a VP force TMO can always legally train your raid. Yes, VP is a no GM interference zone, they can literally train the piss out of you so you can never raid in VP, the only recourse is to train them back, feel free to stoop to their despicable level.

BDA is willing to help anyone (except TMO, they don't need anyone but themselves) kill anything in our power, just get in contact with an officer and we'll arrange a time to assist. See you in Norrath.

[Briscoe]

First in before RNF.

[Lostprophets]

TLDR;

I disagree with every statement you just wrote about TMO, if you have issues there check ur current guild roster and their past history with TMO.

TMO has offered plenty of people Childs tears for their shaman epics, Rotting fear loot, hell, Eccezan even invited me to kill Sev with them one day. TMO might be holding the ropes as top guild and get all the loot now, but they aren't a bad bunch if you get to know them, and not be dicks to them. the variance system is the problem, not them.

However, that's not even the issue here so please don't bring flaming into this thread, this is a serious matter..take that garb to RnF.

[Asher]

If you want change boycott TMO.

Do not heal, buff, rez, port, buy-from, sell-to, communicate-with anyone that is tagged TMO. Period. Anytime you help TMO in any way you are condoning their attitude towards the rest of the server and the unethical actions they take.

Let TMO sustain themselves as a separate entity apart from the rest of the p99 community because TMO has no use for the rest of us.

Every. Single. Guild. On the server is willing to come to the table for the betterment of the server, except TMO. That speaks for itself.

Some of you may counter with "we'll not everyone in TMO is a dbag" and that's a perfectly true statement, but those upstanding individuals don't challenge their own leadership when shady shit happens. Staying silent to preserve the status quo (keeping the pixels flowing) is all that matters to them, the rest of us can fuck off. So you want to experience Veeshan's Peak? Gotta kill Trak first, good luck with that. Even if TMO wipes at Trak and your guild does kill it they FTE rules lawyer you out of the kill. Even if you do get enough keys to mount a VP force TMO can always legally train your raid. Yes, VP is a no GM interference zone, they can literally train the piss out of you so you can never raid in VP, the only recourse is to train them back, feel free to stoop to their despicable level.

BDA is willing to help anyone (except TMO, they don't need anyone but themselves) kill anything in our power, just get in contact with an officer and we'll arrange a time to assist. See you in Norrath.

I say, hate the guild policies and not the people. Generally, everyone I talk to in TMO is very kind and helpful. This is very frustrating and IMO their policy on VP training is also horrible. They get away with it with the GMs blessing so they feel perfectly ok in doing so.

The GMs need to stop sponsoring this/these horrible practices that ruin the raid environment for a majority of the server.

The no GM assistance for VP on live was meant for corpse rots or being trapped unable to get out etc etc. GMs on live would not tolerate training and BS that is permitted here and the staff of p99 really took the easy way out on this.

Lets hope they listen to the people and stop these unclassic practices that favour the large zergy/dedicated 96 hour tracker guilds.

Asher

[Asher]

I disagree with every statement you just wrote about TMO, if you have issues there check ur current guild roster and their past history with TMO.

TMO has offered plenty of people Childs tears for their shaman epics, Rotting fear loot, hell, Eccezan even invited me to kill Sev with them one day. TMO might be holding the ropes as top guild and get all the loot now, but they aren't a bad bunch if you get to know them, and not be dicks to them. the variance system is the problem, not them.

However, that's not even the issue here so please don't bring flaming into this thread, this is a serious matter..take that garb to RnF.

You think they would be as nice to us if they felt threatened by us? They know Taken is small so they don't mind throwing us a small bone once and awhile. If we were BDAs size I think things would be different.

Asher

[arsenalpow]

I disagree with every statement you just wrote, if you have issues there check ur current guild roster and their past history with TMO.

TMO has offered plenty of people Childs tears for their shaman epics, Rotting fear loot, hell, Eccezan even invited me to kill Sev with them one day. TMO might be holding the ropes as top guild and get all the loot now, but they aren't a bad bunch if you get to know them, and not be dicks to them. the variance system is the problem, not them.

However, that's not even the issue here so please don't bring flaming into this thread, this is a serious matter..take that garb to RnF.

I appreciate that a serious conversation attempted to spawn from this thread but Sirken and Rogean already weighed in haven't they? Logically we should turn our attention to something more feasible. A rotation with specific rules would fix this entirely and I'm willing to bet every single guild would agree except for TMO.

Rotate between the guilds, give them a 30min timer to engage and then it turns into FTE. TMO would still get every single non prime time kill because no one else has the ability to field numbers like they do and the other guilds would at least have a shot at content.

Regarding your relations with TMO, I'm happy that you've experienced the better side, but don't come between any loot they are actively chasing, you'll see a much different side of them.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I'm gonna agree with Lostprophets there. It's not really TMOs fault they are thriving in the envirment we all got placed in with variance. They do help out alot of other guilds too, like Lostprophets said, They have given Child's tears to every shaman in my guild for that matter. They have nothing to gain but alot to lose from giving spawns to the rest of the server or going into a rotation so I can see why they refuse. However the fact remains that things need to change. They are only as dominant as they are because of the way raiding is set up on p99. Eliminate variance and have weekly/bi weekly resets and things will change.

[Ferok]

Eliminate variance and have weekly/bi weekly resets and things will change.

It really is very easy.

[Hailto]

Yes, VP is a no GM interference zone, they can literally train the piss out of you so you can never raid in VP, the only recourse is to train them back, feel free to stoop to their despicable level.

I obviously don't fully know where you're coming from because im not in BDA. But i'd really like to think that TMO wouldn't train any guild that was in competition with them. Its very obvious that TMO and BDA have some bad blood going back to issues not fully known to me, so while i believe you both probably train each other. Do you really think they would train any guild in competition, even ones with no prior issues, if they somehow managed to get into vp?

[Kope]

It is just getting ridiculous how contradictory the statements of the staff have been over the course of time especially within this particular issue.

In all reality I think they're (Rogean is...) playing a PR game that has to be played with this server. Yes, he knows the raiding scene is ridiculous (he's actually said so himself) but he can't go FTE rules. That would create a TON of work for the server staff with...how many GMs do they have on staff right now? 2? How would this even be possible? There's absolutely no way you could get an expedited response in any way, shape or form when this happens and people would just end up yelling at the GMs.

On the other hand they also can't implement a system that would degenerate into people yelling at eachother (example: GMs say deal with it yourselves...yeah that didn't turn out so well before and things have only gotten worse...). So they have to hold people's hands but they can't use the GMs precious time to settle disputes of FTE, so what can they do?

Come up with a system that uses as much or even less GM resources/time as the current system does. It would need to be a stable system that has the capacity to evolve as the dymanic of the server changes as well as incentivise competition.

[falkun]

Hailto, training is perfectly legal in the confines of VP. Any other training accusations are not legal and, if proven, are grounds for raid suspensions. TMO has been raid suspended more than any other guild currently active on this server.

However, I generally agree with Rustytaco. TMO is very friendly as long as you are not direct competition. They thrive in the raid environment that exists and their guild was set up to capitalize on the current raid environment.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I obviously don't fully know where you're coming from because im not in BDA. But i'd really like to think that TMO wouldn't train any guild that was in competition with them. Its very obvious that TMO and BDA have some bad blood going back to issues not fully known to me, so while i believe you both probably train each other. Do you really think they would train any guild in competition, even ones with no prior issues, if they somehow managed to get into vp?

TMO and BDAs bad blood probably came from BDA taking in what was left of VD, a few members I know TMO can't stand, and then with the new force BDA tried to enter the raid scene and TMO began "competing" again. You know FTE sniping, trains( not sure if one guild trained themselves or not), all that fun stuff.

[arsenalpow]

I obviously don't fully know where you're coming from because im not in BDA. But i'd really like to think that TMO wouldn't train any guild that was in competition with them. Its very obvious that TMO and BDA have some bad blood going back to issues not fully known to me, so while i believe you both probably train each other. Do you really think they would train any guild in competition, even ones with no prior issues, if they somehow managed to get into vp?

Myuharin died in VP on Wednesday, he was using VP as his own personal firepots (he was going to sky). TMO had killed Druushk because there was a large dragon corpse at the entrance. Only person there was Jeremy and I on a cleric coming to rez Myu. It took about 3 minutes for Aalpha to show up ready to train.

BDA attempted one sneaky kill of Xygoz a while back. Sentenza, Necroious, Aalpha, and numerous other FD classes trained us until we gave up. TMO didn't even feel like killing the dragon but they'd rather train us in our attempts and leave him up for later.

[Ravager]

I obviously don't fully know where you're coming from because im not in BDA. But i'd really like to think that TMO wouldn't train any guild that was in competition with them. Its very obvious that TMO and BDA have some bad blood going back to issues not fully known to me, so while i believe you both probably train each other. Do you really think they would train any guild in competition, even ones with no prior issues, if they somehow managed to get into vp?

You gotta kill Trak a bunch before you can get a guild into VP which means you'll be butting heads with TMO the whole way there. And yes, when you get there, they will train you, whether they have a force to compete for whatever dragon is up or not.

[falkun]

Kope, the simultaneous respawn method would decrease GM time for raid disputes, because all disputes for the week would occur within a 2 hour time frame, instead of spread out randomly throughout the week.

Also, if the raid scene degenerated into a completely "exp = lewts" without variance, then you'd see KS groups forming, people wouldn't have to spend 96hrs tracking, and if the same people lost all the time, they'd probably just quit (which is similar to what happens now with FTE disputes). Either way, its not classic, it benefits a certain guild style, and its creating drama. The server staff would like less drama and more classic, two things variance is counter-productive to.

[arsenalpow]

TMO and BDAs bad blood probably came from BDA taking in what was left of VD, a few members I know TMO can't stand, and then with the new force BDA tried to enter the raid scene and TMO began "competing" again. You know FTE sniping, trains( not sure if one guild trained themselves or not), all that fun stuff.

The bad blood exists because we have the potential to stop them from getting raid loot. Any guild that tries for Trak, VS, CT, Inny, and VP will receive the same exact treatment.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

With all due respect if BDA has the potential to stop TMO from getting loot then you guys need to get to work. If your guild is split in half with people that are willing to track all hours of the day, log on and raid all hours of the day, and employ dirty tactics to get FTEs and then people who don't want any part of it then you don't exactly have the potential to stop them.

[arsenalpow]

We've killed every target in the game multiple times. Recently we butted heads with TMO at VS. we got 3 in a row or something. Each time it was 60 people sitting in his room, he'd spawn and die instantly. Whoever got exp would loot, then later a GM would show up and say who was first on the aggro list, not even first to hit, just the first person VS happened to sway towards.

Same thing for Fay, he had an hour or so left in window and it was the same thing. 20 pullers waiting to tag, same thing for Dojo, 100 people on dojo island. I could keep going...

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Yeah you're on the right track then. If BDA continues contesting mobs like that for quite a while you guys might have something to talk to TMO about then. The problem is keeping the raid force in for thr duration. People will get burnt out from the contested mobs and stop showing up. Then TMO wins again. I went through the same thing with VD. We even did the ol' memblurring thing in VP for a while to try and force our way in there. That was a pretty horrible idea as it backfired and jsut pissed them off way worse lol.

[arsenalpow]

Yeah you're on the right track then. If BDA continues contesting mobs like that for quite a while you guys might have something to talk to TMO about then. The problem is keeping the raid force in for thr duration. People will get burnt out from the contested mobs and stop showing up. Then TMO wins again. I went through the same thing with VD. We even did the ol' memblurring thing in VP for a while to try and force our way in there. That was a pretty horrible idea as it backfired and jsut pissed them off way worse lol.

Right, and it shouldn't be like this. What does Asgard, Acyrid, FC, FV etc have to look forward to? This shit isn't fun, there's no skill involved seeing which way VS or Trak sways to determine who deserves the kill, it's stupid that the status quo is training in VP.

The GMs have taken a hands off approach, and I don't blame them, the situation is entirely stupid. This is why I propose a boycott of TMO, they are the guild refusing to play ball.

[Ilakje]

A rotation with specific rules would fix this entirely and I'm willing to bet every single guild would agree except for TMO.

I'm willing to bet every single person in this country would vote to split Oprah's millions evenly except for Oprah. She must be the bad guy. Boycott Oprah imo.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Right, and it shouldn't be like this. What does Asgard, Acyrid, FC, FV etc have to look forward to? This shit isn't fun, there's no skill involved seeing which way VS or Trak sways to determine who deserves the kill, it's stupid that the status quo is training in VP.

And I completely agree with you which is why I stopped playing Rustytaco and started leveling a new cleric, helped make this guild, and I'm fighting in this thread for change.

[Llabak]

I'm willing to bet every single person in this country would vote to split Oprah's millions evenly except for Oprah. She must be the bad guy. Boycott Oprah imo.

This is only accurate if a) Wealth were truly zero sum; and b) Oprah would go to entrepreneurs trying to generate wealth and file legal injunctions against them, or perhaps burn down their businesses.

A better example would perhaps be Microsoft's monopoly of the browser market last decade based upon the fact that 99% of the world's computers ran Windows. I believe the courts concluded they were, in fact, the bad guys, and forced them to change their policies.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

But I'm not going to deny TMO buffs, rezzes, groups, or whatever else because they aren't sharing raid pixels with me. My guild will eventually be trying to take targets from them and I have plans for how to do it which may or may not work, in the mean time I'll keep helping with the push for no variance or whatevs.

[Ravager]

I'm willing to bet every single person in this country would vote to split Oprah's millions evenly except for Oprah. She must be the bad guy. Boycott Oprah imo.

Oprah's not keeping anyone from getting pixels.

[Lostprophets]

Right, and it shouldn't be like this. What does Asgard, Acyrid, FC, FV etc have to look forward to? This shit isn't fun, there's no skill involved seeing which way VS or Trak sways to determine who deserves the kill, it's stupid that the status quo is training in VP.

The GMs have taken a hands off approach, and I don't blame them, the situation is entirely stupid. This is why I propose a boycott of TMO, they are the guild refusing to play ball.

There shouldn't be any talkings of boycotting TMO, they aren't the problem. all that's gonna do is piss the GM's off and toss this thread into RnF.

The server as a whole has a crappy variance, everyone doesn't like it and its the main cause of why i posted. Not to sit here and start a pissing match like children...most all of us are adults here and it's time we start acting like it.

[Daldolma]

I wish this hadn't devolved to TMO bashing/defending. It's so incredibly naive to blame TMO. Before TMO, TR did the same thing. Before TR, DA did it. Before DA did it, IB did it. It's not about the guild; it's about the rules. The way the rules are set up, you're far better off forming a mega-guild with 100 active members and dominating content in order to share loot. Nilbog wonders why the guilds on P99 are so massive compared to Live? Because on P99, UNLIKE ON CLASSIC, you can dominate 90+% of the raid content given a big enough guild. There's no incentive to compete. Joining up and splitting everything with a prohibitive monopoly on the end-game is far more pixel-lucrative than tracking 96 hour windows with a reasonably sized guild and risking not getting the kill. On Live, that type of monopoly wasn't possible. Everyone knew when mobs were spawning; having 100 members was only a slight advantage over having 30. It didn't make sense to carry dead weight that would absorb loot.

TMO has acted 100% rationally. By accepting anyone with a pulse, they can keep every raid target tracked 24/7 through windows, and they can ensure sufficient turn-out at any time with a batphone. By getting 90% of the loot, it's very easy to keep everyone happy despite the big numbers. If all of a sudden rules changed and they were getting 40% of the loot with 100 active members, they'd either split or slowly bleed members until we saw something much more similar to Live: 3-4 mid-sized guilds all engaged in the end-game.

[Nlaar]

I wish this hadn't devolved to TMO bashing/defending. It's so incredibly naive to blame TMO. Before TMO, TR did the same thing. Before TR, DA did it. Before DA did it, IB did it. It's not about the guild; it's about the rules. The way the rules are set up, you're far better off forming a mega-guild with 100 active members and dominating content in order to share loot. Nilbog wonders why the guilds on P99 are so massive compared to Live? Because on P99, UNLIKE ON CLASSIC, you can dominate 90+% of the raid content given a big enough guild. There's no incentive to compete. Joining up and splitting everything with a prohibitive monopoly on the end-game is far more pixel-lucrative than tracking 96 hour windows with a reasonably sized guild and risking not getting the kill. On Live, that type of monopoly wasn't possible. Everyone knew when mobs were spawning; having 100 members was only a slight advantage over having 30. It didn't make sense to carry dead weight that would absorb loot.

TMO has acted 100% rationally. By accepting anyone with a pulse, they can keep every raid target tracked 24/7 through windows, and they can ensure sufficient turn-out at any time with a batphone. By getting 90% of the loot, it's very easy to keep everyone happy despite the big numbers. If all of a sudden rules changed and they were getting 40% of the loot with 100 active members, they'd either split or slowly bleed members until we saw something much more similar to Live: 3-4 mid-sized guilds all engaged in the end-game.

Emphasis added.

Thank you for steering us back on track.

[falkun]

Yay, more classic. Let's see it happen!

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Yeah sorry lol I got caught up in trying to keep this from becoming TMO bashing. Back on target!

[Chokan]

I never raided on EQ1, but I did on EQ2, while they had contested mobs with spawn variences. My guild had to switch servers to even get attempts in, to learn each fight. If there wasn't a variance, we would've been at least able to attempt mobs and improve as players. Who's going to want to join a raiding guild that doesn't even get to attempt anything? Set spawn time will promote more competition, which is what it seems everyone wants, including TMO...

[arsenalpow]

smaller guilds could have attempts right now if TMO would agree to a rotation, that's more likely than the GMs removing variance currently

i'm not trying to derail this conversation, i'm just looking for any possible change to increase the viability of everyone else trying to get some raid mobs killed

[Daldolma]

That may be true, but asking TMO for charity isn't a sustainable solution. There's no reason for TMO to accept a rotation. There's nothing that would hold them to such a rotation. It would be an empty, short-term gesture that would have more to do with them not needing the loot than the end-game being fixed. Come Velious, that kind of rotation would be flushed and abandoned, and we'd be right back where we are now.

The change has to come organically. The conditions need to be altered. We shouldn't be asking guilds to work against their own self interest. We should be fixing the server rules so that every guild working in their own self interest ultimately results in an acceptable end-game situation. This isn't care bear stuff where we fix the server to help the underdogs. This is server health stuff. The server needs to be fixed to adhere to classic and to promote classic end-game conditions.

[Loke]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

[Frieza_Prexus]

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement,

I agree. Let's grab the most popular single issue and push it.

Show of hands, who here supports (semi)regular repops pre-anounced 24 hours in advance?

/raise

[Alarti0001]

Best idea... simulated repops, maybe monthly
Put in velious, remove variance.

Done

[Autotune]

I only read the first few pages of this, but thought I'd chime in anyway since I did spend a lot of time raiding on P99. I think people are under the assumption that variances were added to help smaller guilds and from my recollection, that is simply not true. Variances were added as a result of DA and IB drama. As I remember it, both guilds having mobs timed and sitting on the spawn point created a lot of drama for the GM in terms of FTE, so variances were added to promote competition between hard-core guilds by introducing mobilization. To my knowledge, the intention was never to give casual guilds a better chance, simply to make it more difficult for the hard-core guilds to prepare for mobs and sit their entire force on the spawn point.

As TMO is the sole hard-core guild on the server now (sorry BDA, you're good people, but a far cry from what I think any of us would consider a top tier raiding guild - and not because of skill, as you yourselves admit, you simply are not willing to put in the effort TMO does), it seems to me that the variance really serves no purpose other than to make TMO's life more difficult.

I'm pretty sure I've said this in a few other posts, but a lot of the raid rules that the server uses were created during a different time, with different guilds that required a different set of rules. To think that the rules that made the raid scene better 2 years ago will continue to be effective today without any reexamination is a bit shortsighted. Hell, I'm pretty sure the foundation that the current system is built upon goes all the way back to when there was a 7 guild council (IB, Trans, FB, Div, IV, GC, and Remedy), 6 of which are now essentially defunct. A lot of posts in this thread are a really good example of the type of discussion that should happen more often. With a different raid scene, a different set of rules might best promote fair and fun competition for everyone.

That being said, making a bunch of threads like this, coming to no real agreement, and then hoping the GM do something isn't the right way to go about it. Back when there were 7 guilds all trying to raid the planes, those 7 guilds got together and worked something out and then presented it to the GMs as a collective suggestion. Instead of guild A asking for this and guild B asking for that, Guilds A, B, C, etc might find the GMs more receptive to a compromise that everyone came to prior to getting them involved.

Or keep doing the same old stuff, it should make RnF interesting when Velious comes out.

Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think the variance should be removed/shortened or that server respawns should happen (although it is hard to argue with Lazortag's post). I'm simply saying that those involved in raiding and the server staff might benefit from sitting down and taking a look at how/why certain rules are used and whether they continue to promote competition in the raid scene; and if not, what changes might be made so that raiding can be more enjoyable for everyone.

Edit 2: For those of you wondering "why would TMO ever agree to a compromise that gives smaller guilds more of a chance without GMs forcing it on them", I'm sure there are quite a few reasons, but one I can think of off the top of my head is that they probably don't like long variances. Smaller guilds don't benefit from variances and I'd imagine TMO would like them shortened. To me that sounds like an opportunity for both casual and hard-core guilds to find some common ground (e.g. casual guilds support the idea of reducing the variance time if TMO supports something that casual guilds think might give them more of a shot - whatever that might be). That is just and idea, I'm sure someone better versed with the current server politics can come up with something different/better than that. All I'm trying to get at is that instead of making these posts and hoping something gets changed, maybe try taking a more active role and coming together as a community to improve the raid scene. A few people asking for changes is probably a lot less persuasive than the entire raid scene proposing a plan they all agreed to when trying to get the server staff to consider new ideas. I've always felt a big part of the reason things went smoothly for a little while was because guilds got together and tried to work things out without needed the GMs to baby sit them. When I was in DA, there were quite a few times where Ektar, Xz and myself sat down and worked shit out without the GMs, and even a couple times where GMs removed account suspensions because us players were able to get together and figure shit out on our own (e.g. more receptive to a unified solution than a bunch of suggestions from individuals). This edit is really turning into a post of it's own, but again, my point is that you guys need to sit down and figure your shit out before asking the GMs to make changes.

Truths.

Also, TMO will never agree to a rotation as long as the core is still around that fought to be in the position they are in now. It would be like asking an army that just took over a castle while you were laid up in a whore house if you can now be king every weekend... not gonna happen.

[Versus]

I'll throw in for Semi-Regular repops, announced or not.

If they are announced, perhaps don't schedule them. How about a serverwide message the instant it happens? Non-Classic, I know.

Also, I'd be game for SHORTENED variances. Getting rid of them completely is a bad idea. I despise the sock.

[Lazortag]

I'll throw in for Semi-Regular repops, announced or not.

If they are announced, perhaps don't schedule them. How about a serverwide message the instant it happens? Non-Classic, I know.

Also, I'd be game for SHORTENED variances. Getting rid of them completely is a bad idea. I despise the sock.

I think they should be announced somewhat in advance. That was what gave casual guilds the time to prepare on Live and even on p99, the fact that they knew a patch was incoming and so they could camp their mains at whatever their desired target was. I'm not even asking for 24 hours notice, but some notice would be good.

Ideally, Rogean would have no obligations outside of eq, and would be able to patch every 1-2 weeks. Then we wouldn't even need to talk about "simulated" patch days, since we could just have regular patch days (more often than once every few months I mean). If this isn't possible, then I say we should either have simulated patch days, or all 7 day mobs should share the same timer, or the variance should be reduced to something more reasonable like at most +/- 12 hours, or some combination of the above. Really, I'm okay with anything so long as it isn't a huge deviation from classic, and so long as casual guilds can still compete - and when I say compete, yes, I actually mean compete. If one guild doesn't want to rotate I don't feel they should have to.

[quido]

Variance was added because of Transcendence/IB raid drama.

[Writ3r]

Also Loke back when "players" came together or whatever you said back then with staff... that was when GM's/Devs were actually IN guilds so it was a lot easier to have the meetings and such you spoke about as a council of sorts. The other guild you forgot to mention that was more active than some you listed in competition was WI.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I agree. Let's grab the most popular single issue and push it.

Show of hands, who here supports (semi)regular repops pre-anounced 24 hours in advance?

/raise

weekly or bi weekly repops would be great but no 24 hour announcement, that gives too much prep time. I think they should do it totally random and just throw up the ol server coming down in 15 minutes spam. Also I still vote for the removal of variance, its not gonna happen but I still think it would be the best way to go.

[Daldolma]

weekly or bi weekly repops would be great but no 24 hour announcement, that gives too much prep time. I think they should do it totally random and just throw up the ol server coming down in 15 minutes spam. Also I still vote for the removal of variance, its not gonna happen but I still think it would be the best way to go.

It's hard to disagree with you since the vibe of this thread seems to be pretty defeatist regarding elimination of variance, but I don't understand why.

This is a classic server. No variance is classic. Variance has broken the raid scene.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying matters, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the solution is to revert to classic and eliminate non-classic variance. The poop-socking wars between IB and DA are ancient history, and regardless, that problem could and should have been solved with much less drastic measures. The implementation of variance was firing napalm to get rid of termites.

People are poop-socking raid mobs with no variance? There's a solution to that. FTE means you can sit there all damn day waiting if you want, it's not going to help your odds. There goes socking.

People are trying to rules lawyer regarding FTE? There's a solution to that, too. Here's FTE-shout. Ninja loot or steal a mob without an FTE-shout in your favor and you're suspended.

People are snagging FTE-shout without a legitimate raid force? Yessir! We've got a solution for that, too: tough luck. Let them die and FD/camp to clear aggro if necessary, then get next FTE-shout and go to town. If you keep snagging each others' FTE-shouts without legitimate raid forces to take down the mob, cool. Waste each others' time, that's not of GM concern. See above for rules regarding stealing someone else's FTE-shout. Maybe eventually you'll settle on a rotation so you don't have to play footsy with FTE-shouts all night.

Can anyone explain why that wouldn't work? GMs wouldn't need to spend more than 10 seconds on any raid dispute. Who got FTE-shout on the kill, and who looted? If they don't match, the looter is suspended. Easy and transparent, no room for rules lawyering.

And most importantly, totally classic -- with the simple addition of FTE-shout for GM convenience.

[Autotune]

96 hour windows = dumb
18 hour windows = smart

Make it happen.

96 hour windows don't serve anymore purpose than 18 hour windows, when it comes to variance justification.

does the exact same thing without the absurd time sink that blocks/deters the smaller guilds from wanting to even play the "classic" endgame of p99.

Once the 18 hour windows are in place and bi-weekly server restarts/repops, the server will naturally take care of itself. I know that the GMs wouldn't get any more involved than they already do (which is apparently not very much atm anyhow).

As a matter of fact, with the shorter windows and bi-weekly restarts, it pretty much guarantees that you'll only have 1-2days that raid disputes could fall on and the rest of the week is free.

[Rooj]

I have to say I'm pretty unhappy to hear that the mechanics here aren't classic. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of the server.

[Dullah]

A better solution to variance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbLsc0pf610&feature=youtu.be

[falkun]

As a matter of fact, with the shorter windows and bi-weekly restarts, it pretty much guarantees that you'll only have 1-2days that raid disputes could fall on and the rest of the week is free.

Agreed. Sticking all the raid disputes possible into a tiny window would actually create less raid related drama for GMs, instead of possibly spreading it out to all hours of the day/week.

Its also more classic.

Finally, I'd rather have the raid scene fixed than Velious. Velious just changes the location of the drama, simultaneous respawns and/or shorter variance actually alters the mechanics of the drama. Root cause fixes are better than bandaids.

[Purdee]

96 hour windows = dumb
18 hour windows = smart

Make it happen.

96 hour windows don't serve anymore purpose than 18 hour windows, when it comes to variance justification.

does the exact same thing without the absurd time sink that blocks/deters the smaller guilds from wanting to even play the "classic" endgame of p99.

Once the 18 hour windows are in place and bi-weekly server restarts/repops, the server will naturally take care of itself. I know that the GMs wouldn't get any more involved than they already do (which is apparently not very much atm anyhow).

As a matter of fact, with the shorter windows and bi-weekly restarts, it pretty much guarantees that you'll only have 1-2days that raid disputes could fall on and the rest of the week is free.

I like this very much.

[Nizzarr]

Lower variance to a couple hours so it feels like useless to stay logged in and camp the mobs but dont introduce weekly simulated loot pinatas days.

Although I can already foresee "Lets poopsock this mob since it can only spawn in the next 5 hours" behavior coming up.

or play on red.

[arsenalpow]

Nizzar has a pretty good point. If we (BDA) decided to "clear juggs" when Trak started ticking down it would turn into both guilds standing on Traks spawn point battling for FTE. Variance removal might lead to more of that which could possibly generate enough groundswell for the players to work it out themselves (a rotation?) or it would be just as stupid as it always is.

[Nlaar]

I think the "back to the pile" South Park scene could be used as an apt analogy for our efforts and the eventual outcome.

"Hey let's work towards a better future."
..
..
"Nah fuck it, back to the poopsocking/variance/nonclassic raid scene"

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[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Lower variance to a couple hours so it feels like useless to stay logged in and camp the mobs but dont introduce weekly simulated loot pinatas days.

Why would lowering variance be better than taking it away completely? And why not do the weekly/bi weekly resets? Even if you lower the variance it still works out the same and TMO will still be able to obtain 90%+ of the targets. With no variance it would be a complete mess with poopsocking but after a while of the completely random FTE(based on the lucky victim the target chooses upon spawning) guilds will get tired of it and work something out to save everyone the headache. Resets would further guarantee that one guild cannot dominate the entire raid scene. If GMs don't want to deal with the poopsocking they could ad in the FTE shout that everyone keep asking for, sure its not classic but coupled with no variance and resets it'd be alot closer than the crap we have now.

[Aata]

Bump for action!

[Briscoe]

Bump for action!

Given how long things have stayed the same, I don't think 18 minutes without a post was putting action in jeopardy.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

lol

[Aata]

Given how long things have stayed the same, I don't think 18 minutes without a post was putting action in jeopardy.

Lol It was second post in the server chat listing :p

[Versus]

I have to say I'm pretty unhappy to hear that the mechanics here aren't classic. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of the server.


The population isn't classic. That's the way the cookie crumbles when you have a highly concentrated population of the games more serious players, 10+ years later.

[aldred]

Should remove completely variance, it's not classic. Have a GM manage the situations, and let Rogean enjoy the pleasure to see the tiny world he created in eternal war. Make it as classic as you can, that's the spirit of the server!

It's like the stupid fuckers staying in front of shops waiting for the iPhone 5 to be sold... if they want to loose their time there and to look totally retarded to everyone they can...

I hope I offended someone at least with my iPhone story!

Anyway I'm not guilded or raiding... :D

[Aicha]

Should remove completely variance, it's not classic. Have a GM manage the situations, and let Rogean enjoy the pleasure to see the tiny world he created in eternal war. Make it as classic as you can, that's the spirit of the server!

It's like the stupid fuckers staying in front of shops waiting for the iPhone 5 to be the sold... if they want to loose their time there and to look totally retarded to everyone they can...

I hope I offended someone at least with my iPhone story!

Anyway I'm not guilded or raiding... :D

I LOL'd. :p

[Lazortag]

One of the reasons why I think a shorter variance is better than no variance is because we have a dedicated population of european/non-western players. I believe on Live they had their own servers, but here we only have one server, so we should accomodate them. It would be unfair if everything spawned at 10PM EST every week, when it's 3 (4?) in the morning for the brits. Window sizes all have the same effect on euro players modulo 24 so there's no reason to have 96 hour windows - 24 hour windows would suffice (though it should probably be even shorter than that).

[Eccezan]

Removing Variance is not an option, anyone that's been around this server since before it was implemented can tell you why. And it certainly will not alleviate the dominance of top guilds over the rest of them.. it will make matters worse, only it will be a clusterfuck for the staff as well.

[aldred]

Staff is not paid anyway, they're more here to solve technical issues and could just tell us "Too bad, but I have to go drink beers with friend now, have fun!" (when laughing behind the screen).

But we were speaking of iPhone fans... looks what Apple made to them...

http://www.linformaticien.com/Portals/0/2012/mars/newiPad_sortie1.jpg

[Autotune]

One of the reasons why I think a shorter variance is better than no variance is because we have a dedicated population of european/non-western players. I believe on Live they had their own servers, but here we only have one server, so we should accomodate them. It would be unfair if everything spawned at 10PM EST every week, when it's 3 (4?) in the morning for the brits. Window sizes all have the same effect on euro players modulo 24 so there's no reason to have 96 hour windows - 24 hour windows would suffice (though it should probably be even shorter than that).

18 hours is key imo. Still enough time for everyone to have a chance, but short enough it can exclude some people some times. (let's be real, on live, things didn't always spawn at favorable times)

Also, Rogean say's it will never remove variance, he doesn't say he won't shorten it. 96 hours of variance is just silly, especially now.

Honestly, there has to be some hidden reason to not change the variance to make it shorter. The reason variance was put in works the exact same with 18 hour windows as it does 96 hour windows, except with the latter people only have time for either raiding or not raiding (you seriously can't do both on p99 *NOT CLASSIC*).

The raiding scene is the most un-classic thing ever to be on project1999, so much that once you hit the endgame the classic experience is history (and not because of the lack of rotations either).

Nilbog wants to make project 1999 as classic as possible.

- They removed the compass and pet windows from the ui to make the game/ui closer to what classic had.

- So remove about 78 hours from the 96 hour variance to make it closer to what classic had.

Seems logical to me.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

If variance absolutely has to remain then it should stay unchanged. Shortening the variance isnt gonna give smaller guilds any better shot at challenging larger guilds. It will only make the larger guilds have to invest less time. I guess if we could at least get weekly or bi weekly server resets then that would give small guilds a shot still but any repops in between will still pretty much belong to TMO.

[Lazortag]

If variance absolutely has to remain then it should stay unchanged. Shortening the variance isnt gonna give smaller guilds any better shot at challenging larger guilds. It will only make the larger guilds have to invest less time. I guess if we could at least get weekly or bi weekly server resets then that would give small guilds a shot still but any repops in between will still pretty much belong to TMO.

What? Of course it will help, it will mean TMO can't have 15 trackers on at once, and casuals who are willing to track won't have to do it for so long. Of course I support simultaneous repops on top of this but shortening the variance would absolutely be good for smaller guilds.

[aldred]

Honestly, there has to be some hidden reason to not change the variance to make it shorter.

It's hard to look at code you wrote months ago without any comments :D

Anyway life is unfair...

[Autotune]

What? Of course it will help, it will mean TMO can't have 15 trackers on at once, and casuals who are willing to track won't have to do it for so long. Of course I support simultaneous repops on top of this but shortening the variance would absolutely be good for smaller guilds.

truth from someone in a casual guild who has tried to track mobs in 96 hour windows.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

You are underestimating TMO then if you think we stand any chance against them with a variance in place. They are built for this we are not. I do see your point though about people being more willing to track in small guild if it were for a shorter amount of time.

[Rooj]

I tracked Sev once. I'll never track another raid mob again.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I've done plenty of tracking myself. It sucks I'm sure we can all agree on that.

[Autotune]

You are underestimating TMO then if you think we stand any chance against them with a variance in place. They are built for this we are not. I do see your point though about people being more willing to track in small guild if it were for a shorter amount of time.

You stand more of a chance if people are more apt to get involved. You stand more of a chance when mobs have more of a chance at spawning at the same time.

shorter windows promote both of those things.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Yes those are both very true statements I cannot argue that. Still though I can't get past the fact that it would just make less work for TMO. I mean IB/VD tracked around the clock with TMO and TMO still came out on top in the end of that. BDA tracks stuff not sure if they track all hours of the day or not but they aren't getting many targets either.

[Daldolma]

Shortening variance is definitely worse than eliminating it, and arguably worse than leaving it the same. Shortening variance has two effects: making life easier on the mega-guild that is already dominating everything and encouraging poop-socking. Both are the opposite of classic and serve only to further encourage what has ruined the end-game.

Maintaining variance to ensure pops in different prime times is totally unclassic. May as well instance. The goal isn't to give everyone a fair share. If you play in Europe, you may have a harder time getting certain mobs. At the same time, you may have a huge advantage with others. It all depends. The truth is, most patches have come during the day, which means the raid mobs are going to start in Euro prime time and drift toward US prime time 10+ minutes at a time.

There are so many biases at play when you talk about fixing the end-game. For that reason and 100 others, the best solution is to make the end-game classic and pick up the pieces afterward. Classic server, classic endgame.

[Autotune]

Shortening variance is definitely worse than eliminating it, and arguably worse than leaving it the same. Shortening variance has two effects: making life easier on the mega-guild that is already dominating everything and encouraging poop-socking. Both are the opposite of classic and serve only to further encourage what has ruined the end-game.

Maintaining variance to ensure pops in different prime times is totally unclassic. May as well instance. The goal isn't to give everyone a fair share. If you play in Europe, you may have a harder time getting certain mobs. At the same time, you may have a huge advantage with others. It all depends. The truth is, most patches have come during the day, which means the raid mobs are going to start in Euro prime time and drift toward US prime time 10+ minutes at a time.

There are so many biases at play when you talk about fixing the end-game. For that reason and 100 others, the best solution is to make the end-game classic and pick up the pieces afterward. Classic server, classic endgame.

It's not that it makes TMO's life any easier (it obviously does) but it makes everyone's life easier.

TMO is already getting all the mobs, so now you're saying you'd rather have no shot so long as it's a pain in the ass for them... (not saying you even want a shot, but that's how that mentality looks)

Shortening the windows makes things easier, but also makes things harder for TMO. Less tracking time, but more guilds would want to track and get involved. As it stands, no guild wants to play the game with TMO.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I think the main point is that 18 hours or 96 hours TMO will get it all with the variance in place. Other guilds can track all they want TMO isn't going to lose the mobilization battle.

[Autotune]

I think the main point is that 18 hours or 96 hours TMO will get it all with the variance in place. Other guilds can track all they want TMO isn't going to lose the mobilization battle.

You would be surprised. TMO has lost plenty in the past, they don't lose now because no one plays.

There are plenty of capable guilds who would start showing up if mobs were on 18hour windows and had bi-weekly scheduled repops.

Hell TMO would probably start shaving members if things changed, they wouldn't need the large force anymore in that scenario.

[Daldolma]

As an aside, I have no idea what you're talking about Giegue. Shortening variance would be absolutely disastrous for small guilds. Tracking an 18-hour window means nothing -- don't you understand? If Divinity and TMO are both tracking the same mob in a shortened window, TMO is going to beat you 100 times out of 100. So yes, you might have a better chance of actually getting a batphone when the mob pops: good luck with that. Divinity will log in 12 players at 4 PM or 4AM EST. TMO will log in 35. Good game. Let's say you luck out and a low-priority raid mob happens to pop at 8PM EST, early in its window -- perfect conditions for a small guild. You're still not beating TMO and BDA to the finish line. TMO is willing to track 96 hour windows and hop online at any time. What do you think they're going to do when you condense things into 18 hour windows? They'll have 50 people ready to pounce the second it pops. They had 77 raiding the other night. You cannot beat them in a variance battle. If anyone beats them, it will be BDA -- because once again, variance caters to size. TMO and BDA can mobilize 50% of their raid force and throw warm bodies at mobs instantly. Smaller guilds need to wait for their entire raid force, then prepare. Maybe if you're lucky they'll link loot.

On top of that, once a mob gets toward the end of its window, guilds are just going to poop-sock. Inny with 5 hours? Sounds like a good time for a Hate clear... said 4 different guilds. Trak window at 8 hours? Hey, how about we get a few dozen people to clear juggs. This would be the only chance a small guild has with a shortened variance -- by poop-socking in window. But once that starts, then everyone is going to poop-sock in window. Insert mess.

[Autotune]

As an aside, I have no idea what you're talking about Giegue. Shortening variance would be absolutely disastrous for small guilds. Tracking an 18-hour window means nothing -- don't you understand? If Divinity and TMO are both tracking the same mob in a shortened window, TMO is going to beat you 100 times out of 100. So yes, you might have a better chance of actually getting a batphone when the mob pops: good luck with that. Divinity will log in 12 players at 4 PM or 4AM EST. TMO will log in 35. Good game. Let's say you luck out and a low-priority raid mob happens to pop at 8PM EST, early in its window -- perfect conditions for a small guild. You're still not beating TMO and BDA to the finish line. TMO is willing to track 96 hour windows and hop online at any time. What do you think they're going to do when you condense things into 18 hour windows? They'll have 50 people ready to pounce the second it pops. They had 77 raiding the other night. You cannot beat them in a variance battle. If anyone beats them, it will be BDA -- because once again, variance caters to size. TMO and BDA can mobilize 50% of their raid force and throw warm bodies at mobs instantly. Smaller guilds need to wait for their entire raid force, then prepare. Maybe if you're lucky they'll link loot.

On top of that, once a mob gets toward the end of its window, guilds are just going to poop-sock. Inny with 5 hours? Sounds like a good time for a Hate clear... said 4 different guilds. Trak window at 8 hours? Hey, how about we get a few dozen people to clear juggs. This would be the only chance a small guild has with a shortened variance -- by poop-socking in window. But once that starts, then everyone is going to poop-sock in window. Insert mess.

Now insert bi-weekly repops to keep all of the mobs around 24hrs of each other before the next repop.

Honestly atm, what is helping TMO is the large variance. Things are so spread out that they can easily defend(for a lack of a better word) "their" mobs from other guilds. The risk of going after one target and having another spawn during the same time is very minimal. It might of happened 4 times over the 9 months of raiding I put in last go round. Condense it down into a shorter period and now TMO has to defend all the targets in a much shorter time spawn against more foes.

Makes it rather difficult to be in all places at once while people are all attacking your pixels.

[Daldolma]

It's not that it makes TMO's life any easier (it obviously does) but it makes everyone's life easier.

TMO is already getting all the mobs, so now you're saying you'd rather have no shot so long as it's a pain in the ass for them... (not saying you even want a shot, but that's how that mentality looks)

Shortening the windows makes things easier, but also makes things harder for TMO. Less tracking time, but more guilds would want to track and get involved. As it stands, no guild wants to play the game with TMO.

To me, it's not about having a shot or causing anyone a pain in the ass. For me, it's about classic. I have no problem with TMO, because TMO isn't even a real entity. There are 40 different types of personalities in TMO and 20 different cliques of pals. It's an amalgamation of everyone that wants to be involved in the end-game, because the only way to be involved is to join TMO. That is terribly un-classic. The conditions of classic were such that it wasn't possible for one guild to dominate content, so there was no reason to form mega-guilds.

Whether or not shortening windows makes things easier for other guilds (and I don't agree that it would), it's still not classic, and it promotes poop-socking again. I just don't see what's wrong with classic. If the server goal is classic, and classic endgame is attainable with some minor fixes for dispute resolution, why push for anything else?

[Autotune]

To me, it's not about having a shot or causing anyone a pain in the ass. For me, it's about classic. I have no problem with TMO, because TMO isn't even a real entity. There are 40 different types of personalities in TMO and 20 different cliques of pals. It's an amalgamation of everyone that wants to be involved in the end-game, because the only way to be involved is to join TMO. That is terribly un-classic. The conditions of classic were such that it wasn't possible for one guild to dominate content, so there was no reason to form mega-guilds.

Whether or not shortening windows makes things easier for other guilds (and I don't agree that it would), it's still not classic, and it promotes poop-socking again. I just don't see what's wrong with classic. If the server goal is classic, and classic endgame is attainable with some minor fixes for dispute resolution, why push for anything else?

No variance also promotes poopsocking (the classic approach) it also was said, by Rogean himself, that it was never getting removed. That's why people push for other things, because they are obtainable (also are a move towards your goal).

I see taking 96hr windows down to 18hr windows a step towards classic, who is to say later that the 18 can't go to 6 or to 1 or 0.

Let's test the waters, not jump back and forth between the extremes and complain.

[Daldolma]

Now insert bi-weekly repops to keep all of the mobs around 24hrs of each other before the next repop.

The bi-weekly repop idea is a good one. It would be a classic emulation of patch days. I just don't see why it has to be attached at the hip with a shortened, rather than eliminated, variance.

No variance and bi-weekly repop is classic; that's what I'm in favor of.

[Autotune]

The bi-weekly repop idea is a good one. It would be a classic emulation of patch days. I just don't see why it has to be attached at the hip with a shortened, rather than eliminated, variance.

No variance and bi-weekly repop is classic; that's what I'm in favor of.

There are people who want variance (shortened from what it is)
There are people who want no variance
There is one person who wants variance the way it is (Rogean)

Unfortunately, the one person who likes variance the way it is, doesn't want it removed completely.

I'm more in favor of no variance than any, but you work with what you're given.

[Daldolma]

No variance also promotes poopsocking (the classic approach) it also was said, by Rogean himself, that it was never getting removed. That's why people push for other things, because they are obtainable (also are a move towards your goal).

I see taking 96hr windows down to 18hr windows a step towards classic, who is to say later that the 18 can't go to 6 or to 1 or 0.

Let's test the waters, not jump back and forth between the extremes and complain.

Done correctly, no variance wouldn't promote poopsocking -- at least not in the P99 sense. No variance with FTE would result in guilds showing up about 20 minutes before a mob was due to pop. I don't consider that socking -- that's just prep time.

I get the idea of incremental decreases in the variance time, but I just don't see the point of half-assing our way back toward classic. But if Rogean really won't ever return to classic endgame, I guess other alternatives need to be considered.

[Nlaar]

There are plenty of capable guilds who would start showing up if mobs were on 18hour windows and had bi-weekly scheduled repops.

Hell TMO would probably start shaving members if things changed, they wouldn't need the large force anymore in that scenario.

I have said the same thing.

Nilbog want to see smaller raid guilds of yesteryear? The answer is in this thread and indeed within this quote.

[Writ3r]

What is also lacking about the "poopsock" issue thus far in this thread is that it comes down to the variable of actually getting the mob or making it easier for another guild to get the mob by doing it. The only real zone that aids a "race" and is anti poopsock is fear because it all repops when CT does (assuming you don't allow the training aspect and force clears, considering back when it was considered griefing and was monitored people triggering DT cycles on purpose to be punished). With encounters like plane of hate and dungeon mobs like Trak all having mobs that you can clear ahead of time. It will become a thinking point on whether or not it is worth poopsocking yourselves when you can still lose the target to the current FTE > all rule by clearing the way for another guild or 2 or 5 to come "compete". As it has been stated if you go to the classic route and more people know the times, yes initially there may be poopsocking but in the end stuff will get sorted out due to people actually being near each other forcing interactions between guilds.

This will then lead to what others have said in regards to the raid scene getting cleared up by allowing for more people to have a say within what ideas go into it since they will now be involved.

[Autotune]

What is also lacking about the "poopsock" issue thus far in this thread is that it comes down to the variable of actually getting the mob or making it easier for another guild to get the mob by doing it. The only real zone that aids a "race" and is anti poopsock is fear because it all repops when CT does (assuming you don't allow the training aspect and force clears, considering back when it was considered griefing and was monitored people triggering DT cycles on purpose to be punished). With encounters like plane of hate and dungeon mobs like Trak all having mobs that you can clear ahead of time. It will become a thinking point on whether or not it is worth poopsocking yourselves when you can still lose the target to the current FTE > all rule by clearing the way for another guild or 2 or 5 to come "compete". As it has been stated if you go to the classic route and more people know the times, yes initially there may be poopsocking but in the end stuff will get sorted out due to people actually being near each other forcing interactions between guilds.

This will then lead to what others have said in regards to the raid scene getting cleared up by allowing for more people to have a say within what ideas go into it since they will now be involved.

I don't see every guild that would start to get involved all going for the same targets. Some guilds can't even hope to take down some of them, but they can shoot for the other targets.

TMO can take down 1-3 targets depending on what they are, but they can't take them all down at the same time and even then, it's not going to be worth the large guild size.

TMO doesn't need to talk with other guilds because they hold all the chips, get enough smaller guilds in the mix with bda and then you have lots of small shareholders who are equal to or greater than the large entity.

[Writ3r]

That would be the point of no variance, get more guilds feeling as if they can compete and embedded within the raid scene. Then this allegation of poopsock would be null and void as time went on and other guilds either grew or just got better at encounters by getting the mobs the bigger guilds took as less priority initially. It would allow them to experience the end game get some of that gear then move on to the other mobs out of curiosity and hope. I never said anyone "had" to talk to anyone, but it would force people to talk (in the event of poopsocking) about the way things went considering you could still lose the mob by clearing the path for more guilds to have a shot at snagging FTE.

Either way, with more guilds within the raid scene and snagging mobs that still culminates in them being within the overall scene. So even if it was always FC, Asgard, FV and such on certain mobs they would work together. Then on other mobs maybe Taken and Div would see eachother a lot where at the higher end like VS/Trak initially it would be TMO/BDA. At some point all of those guilds would cross paths on particular mobs to allow for conversations to take place, whether or not they are "needed" can be debated... but it would still open lines of communication far more than they are now especially for it to be done IN game or voice chat (like the ragefire meetings) rather than on forums where attitudes tend not to be as realistic.

[Autotune]

That would be the point of no variance, get more guilds feeling as if they can compete and embedded within the raid scene. Then this allegation of poopsock would be null and void as time went on and other guilds either grew or just got better at encounters by getting the mobs the bigger guilds took as less priority initially. It would allow them to experience the end game get some of that gear then move on to the other mobs out of curiosity and hope. I never said anyone "had" to talk to anyone, but it would force people to talk (in the event of poopsocking) about the way things went considering you could still lose the mob by clearing the path for more guilds to have a shot at snagging FTE.

Either way, with more guilds within the raid scene and snagging mobs that still culminates in them being within the overall scene. So even if it was always FC, Asgard, FV and such on certain mobs they would work together. Then on other mobs maybe Taken and Div would see eachother a lot where at the higher end like VS/Trak initially it would be TMO/BDA. At some point all of those guilds would cross paths on particular mobs to allow for conversations to take place, whether or not they are "needed" can be debated... but it would still open lines of communication far more than they are now especially for it to be done IN game or voice chat (like the ragefire meetings) rather than on forums where attitudes tend not to be as realistic.

The closest thing that is possible to no variance is drastically shortened windows and bi-weekly repops. Which is still within Rogean's "Ain't no way variance is bein killt"

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

The closest thing that is possible to no variance is drastically shortened windows and bi-weekly repops. Which is still within Rogean's "Ain't no way variance is bein killt"

96 hour variance and bi weekly repops would do the same thing for smaller guilds as shortening the variance. Except small guilds wouldn't spend time tracking mobs that TMO will beat them too 10 times outta 10.

[Autotune]

96 hour variance and bi weekly repops would do the same thing for smaller guilds as shortening the variance. Except small guilds wouldn't spend time tracking mobs that TMO will beat them too 10 times outta 10.

actually it won't. You'll have the no variance repop happen, then next week you'll have nothing.

With the shortened windows, you'll have the no variance repop happen, then next week you'll have all Naggy, Vox, Inny, CT, Sev, Tal, Gore, Fay, Phara, xygoz, silverwing, hoshkarr, druushk, and nexona all spawning within about 22hrs of each other (with 18hr windows). That is opposed to them all spawning within about 100hours of each other.

[Lazortag]

96 hour variance and bi weekly repops would do the same thing for smaller guilds as shortening the variance. Except small guilds wouldn't spend time tracking mobs that TMO will beat them too 10 times outta 10.

Why are you assuming we'll be beaten 10 times out of 10? Even as it stands TMO doesn't have the time to track every single mob, do you think if they're all spawning within a 24 hour window that TMO will have an army of trackers spread across every zone, able to track all hours of the day? We got Maestro a couple weeks ago because we happened to be clearing hate while he popped. Sometimes we consciously choose to clear zones while a mob is in window to give us a mobilization advantage - that would be even easier to do if windows were shortened, and not even TMO is big enough to cover every single zone while this is happening. Moreover, the chance of two mobs spawning at the same time is much higher when the windows are shorter. Plus, what if TMO is in a battle with BDA on poop mountain while everything else is in window? Do you really think they have the advantage then? I say this as someone who actually tracks for raid mobs under the current system, it would be much easier for my guild if the windows were shorter, because more people would be willing to track. Your solution is basically to give us no option at all (having to track for up to 96 hours) versus giving us an option which you believe will lead to us losing every time. I'm saying we won't lose every time. And even if we did, I still would agree with shortening the windows because no person, whether they're in TMO or not, should have to track mobs for as long as they're expected to currently.

I'm also not persuaded by this argument that we shouldn't accomodate european players. Frankly, I think that's horseshit, they have every right to enjoy raiding on this server too, and so there should be some kind of variance, just not the insanely long one we have now.

[Wiwi]

Though I play this game in limited windows of time, and hardly ever group these days *gasp*, I like where the discussion is headed.

- Drastically reduce or remove variance.
- Server repops during the week.

Give all these EverCrackheads a break from the insanity of tracking all day. They can't stop, no more than a meth-head can stop hoarding sudafed from every pharmacy he passes by.

[Writ3r]

I think the other frustrating thing for most of these guilds is the fact that they feel they can't participate on some of the mobs at all (who are not exactly prime mobs) when there are other guilds who have an additional zone/set of mobs that they have at their disposal. Then the attitude or action of still negating the lesser mobs toward the guilds who want to make an entrance into the scene remains constant (as it is no surprise due to the amount of work it takes to even see a mob at times). That is the biggest reason change needs to happen, this is a server and in part a community. There needs to be the event where everyone who has invested time has a chance to see and experience the content if they wish to without the big pain that a 96 hour window entails.

Imagine if VP were remotely closer to classic where more (or any) clearing needed to take place to get to the named, then this would allow for again more time to be devoted toward that and an opening for other guilds at other targets during that timeframe. If you had variance it would allow said guilds in VP for example more of a cushion to spend in there and still acquire mobs outside of that particular zone (which promotes training/delaying). If there was no variance then guess what just as with a repop they would have to choose the higher priority which would most likely be VP due to the significantly better gear allowing other guilds to acquire other targets more regularly (plus maybe reduce the drama that can occur in that zone due to time constraints).

It is kind of like the issue on server repops before, it was just DUMB to make it a rolling repop rather than a complete repop due to the fact of one guild having a better chance at being able to dominate that particular scene. The same can be said with variance, if one guild is and can continue dominating what is the sense of it continuing forward when there are far more than one guilds worth of individuals within the confines of the server. Yes the same may continue as far as dominance, but even as some have admitted there would be new variables introduced making it slightly more difficult and/or interesting for that same guild by allowing more guilds to atleast get involved.

[Daldolma]

Why are you assuming we'll be beaten 10 times out of 10? Even as it stands TMO doesn't have the time to track every single mob, do you think if they're all spawning within a 24 hour window that TMO will have an army of trackers spread across every zone, able to track all hours of the day? We got Maestro a couple weeks ago because we happened to be clearing hate while he popped. Sometimes we consciously choose to clear zones while a mob is in window to give us a mobilization advantage - that would be even easier to do if windows were shortened, and not even TMO is big enough to cover every single zone while this is happening. Moreover, the chance of two mobs spawning at the same time is much higher when the windows are shorter. Plus, what if TMO is in a battle with BDA on poop mountain while everything else is in window? Do you really think they have the advantage then? I say this as someone who actually tracks for raid mobs under the current system, it would be much easier for my guild if the windows were shorter, because more people would be willing to track. Your solution is basically to give us no option at all (having to track for up to 96 hours) versus giving us an option which you believe will lead to us losing every time. I'm saying we won't lose every time. And even if we did, I still would agree with shortening the windows because no person, whether they're in TMO or not, should have to track mobs for as long as they're expected to currently.

I'm also not persuaded by this argument that we shouldn't accomodate european players. Frankly, I think that's horseshit, they have every right to enjoy raiding on this server too, and so there should be some kind of variance, just not the insanely long one we have now.

Sounds awfully similar to when people would say "do you really think they're going to track for 96 hours straight?" The answer is yes. They'll track every mob and keep 40+ online all day on the one day that repops are due. They're not going to just walk away and say aw, shucks. They'll sell a few more Trak BPs, buy a few more tracker accounts, and be as good to go as ever.

But you're right. Guilds would have the option of sitting in a zone while a mob is in window and hoping he spawns. That's otherwise known as poop-socking, and you'd probably be doing it with 2 or 3 other guilds depending on your target. But yeah, if that's what you want, that would be an option available to you. That was the entire reason variance was added in the first place, though -- to eliminate that kind of behavior.

[Daldolma]

Oh, and re: the European players, you're clearly not getting it. Daytime repops are European prime time. I don't know why you have this delusion that every no variance mob would be spawning US primetime and hanging Europe out to dry. It would depend entirely on when the original server repop was. Given recent server history, it seems more likely that raid mobs would start popping in European prime time and slowly drift toward US prime time with each new pop. Just randomize the time at which each server repop/simulated patch takes place. There will be weeks where European players have an enormous advantage, and weeks where all the pops come in US prime time. Just like classic.

[Autotune]

Oh, and re: the European players, you're clearly not getting it. Daytime repops are European prime time. I don't know why you have this delusion that every no variance mob would be spawning US primetime and hanging Europe out to dry. It would depend entirely on when the original server repop was. Given recent server history, it seems more likely that raid mobs would start popping in European prime time and slowly drift toward US prime time with each new pop. Just randomize the time at which each server repop/simulated patch takes place. There will be weeks where European players have an enormous advantage, and weeks where all the pops come in US prime time. Just like classic.

Not like it really matters, there hasn't been an European guild on the server for ages. Another victim of huge variance windows.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

Why are you assuming we'll be beaten 10 times out of 10? Even as it stands TMO doesn't have the time to track every single mob, do you think if they're all spawning within a 24 hour window that TMO will have an army of trackers spread across every zone, able to track all hours of the day? We got Maestro a couple weeks ago because we happened to be clearing hate while he popped. Sometimes we consciously choose to clear zones while a mob is in window to give us a mobilization advantage - that would be even easier to do if windows were shortened, and not even TMO is big enough to cover every single zone while this is happening. Moreover, the chance of two mobs spawning at the same time is much higher when the windows are shorter. Plus, what if TMO is in a battle with BDA on poop mountain while everything else is in window? Do you really think they have the advantage then? I say this as someone who actually tracks for raid mobs under the current system, it would be much easier for my guild if the windows were shorter, because more people would be willing to track. Your solution is basically to give us no option at all (having to track for up to 96 hours) versus giving us an option which you believe will lead to us losing every time. I'm saying we won't lose every time. And even if we did, I still would agree with shortening the windows because no person, whether they're in TMO or not, should have to track mobs for as long as they're expected to currently.

I'm also not persuaded by this argument that we shouldn't accomodate european players. Frankly, I think that's horseshit, they have every right to enjoy raiding on this server too, and so there should be some kind of variance, just not the insanely long one we have now.
I'm assuming we will be beaten 10 out of 10 times because it's pretty much fact. Say variance window did change and somehow smaller guilds did start beating TMO to targets(which we won't) the very next thing that would happen is TMO members that are taking breaks or whatever would start playing again for the "competition" then their numbers would grow even more. And they would have no problem keeping everything tracked, As if they even have that problem already. TMO keeps eye on everything around the clock with a 96 hour variance. What makes you think they won't be able to do the same with shorter variance?

[Lazortag]

Oh, and re: the European players, you're clearly not getting it. Daytime repops are European prime time. I don't know why you have this delusion that every no variance mob would be spawning US primetime and hanging Europe out to dry. It would depend entirely on when the original server repop was. Given recent server history, it seems more likely that raid mobs would start popping in European prime time and slowly drift toward US prime time with each new pop. Just randomize the time at which each server repop/simulated patch takes place. There will be weeks where European players have an enormous advantage, and weeks where all the pops come in US prime time. Just like classic.

...What?? Every patch for the past year has been between 7PM and 11PM EST as far as I can recall, which is way too late for most European players. If you took away variance entirely, then all mobs would die within a 30 minute time frame, and next week they'd respawn only slightly later. If your suggestion is to have random simulated patch days then you'll have the opposite problem since for several weeks straight, mobs will only spawn early in the morning for westerners. The time of day that mobs spawn one week shouldn't determine when they spawn the next week on an international server.


Sounds awfully similar to when people would say "do you really think they're going to track for 96 hours straight?" The answer is yes. They'll track every mob and keep 40+ online all day on the one day that repops are due. They're not going to just walk away and say aw, shucks. They'll sell a few more Trak BPs, buy a few more tracker accounts, and be as good to go as ever.

But you're right. Guilds would have the option of sitting in a zone while a mob is in window and hoping he spawns. That's otherwise known as poop-socking, and you'd probably be doing it with 2 or 3 other guilds depending on your target. But yeah, if that's what you want, that would be an option available to you. That was the entire reason variance was added in the first place, though -- to eliminate that kind of behavior.

The problem is that currently, they have a few people who are able to track for unreasonably long stretches of time. If the windows were shortened, they'd need multiple people able to track for smaller stretches of time. Even if they could track every mob, smaller guilds would probably camp near their priority mobs*, or just outrace them when more than one mob spawns at a time. What if Trak or some VP mob is in window during a day when everything else is popping? Do you think TMO and BDA are going to risk giving the other guild a free shot at Trak if they mobilize for some low-priority target like Inny? Another huge difference is that if you lose a mob that you tracked under the new system, you don't lose 4 days of your life for nothing, and you still have a reasonable idea of when the TOD was if a mob spawns when your guild was asleep.

Basically what will happen is this: TMO will lose mobs because they can't be everywhere at once. The current system gives them more security because if they go for a mob, the chance of another one spawning at the same time is extremely low, and they keep track of all the TOD's so that if another mob is in window, they don't lose a huge part of their raid force trying to track it. If 10 other mobs are in window, are you going to spare 10 of your raiders just to track them? I doubt it.

*I'm not ashamed about poopsocking for a few hours if the alternative is to poopsock it for several days. Also, 2-3 guilds poopsocking one mob is extremely unlikely given that there are over a dozen raid mobs and less than a dozen raid guilds.

edit: also, I think that small guilds *can* beat TMO to certain targets, and they just need to be willing to track. Currently I don't see how any casual player would be willing to track because it is such a colossal time investment.

[Daldolma]

18 hours isn't going to be the rapid-fire respawn that you seem to think it is. It takes less than 20 minutes for TMO to mobilize and take down a mob once it spawns. Multiple priority targets popping at the same time is going to be the exception, not the rule. Maybe they'll choose to let a Maestro, Sev, or Talendor slide every now and then, but they're not going to have any problem at all taking down Trak, VS, Inny, CT, VP, and Gore. They don't even have any real competition for VP and Gore.

There are two scenarios given an 18-hour variance. One is that TMO will go zone to zone annihilating everything as it spawns, and the only hope other guilds will have is to poopsock. This is the most likely scenario.

The other is that TMO will poopsock Trak and/or VS with BDA for 18 hours.

There's one thing in common with both of those scenarios: return of the sock. It's not classic, it's not how the endgame was meant to be played, and there's no reason for it. There are 9,000 better ways to cater to a small European population that, as Autotune pointed out, doesn't even comprise a guild of their own at the moment.

[Ravager]

Nobody can say for sure what the result will be until it's tried. Afterall, the TMO megaguild was an unintended consequence of 4 day variance. This server is a perpetual work in progress and I don't see what the harm would be to try some of these ideas for a few weeks and then guage the waters then. I doubt there will be any lasting damage to the player base that isn't already going on through attrition right now.

[aldred]

I like the idea of testing stuff, this is what makes the best results in software development ;)

[ArumTP]

Right, and it shouldn't be like this. What does Asgard, Acyrid, FC, FV etc have to look forward to? This shit isn't fun, there's no skill involved seeing which way VS or Trak sways to determine who deserves the kill, it's stupid that the status quo is training in VP.

The GMs have taken a hands off approach, and I don't blame them, the situation is entirely stupid. This is why I propose a boycott of TMO, they are the guild refusing to play ball.

Small guilds simply don't involve themselves in contested mobs. Say this variance thing is removed. It would only result in Divinity, BDA, Taken?, Acyrid? getting some of TMO's targets. Small guilds simply don't have the vast resources available all the time to kill these mobs in short order, even though within their ranks they are fully capable. Small guilds are still racing each other for fear/hate after it got AOE killed by bigger guilds or getting lucky for a fully repopulated zone.

[Autotune]

18 hours isn't going to be the rapid-fire respawn that you seem to think it is. It takes less than 20 minutes for TMO to mobilize and take down a mob once it spawns. Multiple priority targets popping at the same time is going to be the exception, not the rule. Maybe they'll choose to let a Maestro, Sev, or Talendor slide every now and then, but they're not going to have any problem at all taking down Trak, VS, Inny, CT, VP, and Gore. They don't even have any real competition for VP and Gore.

There are two scenarios given an 18-hour variance. One is that TMO will go zone to zone annihilating everything as it spawns, and the only hope other guilds will have is to poopsock. This is the most likely scenario.

The other is that TMO will poopsock Trak and/or VS with BDA for 18 hours.

There's one thing in common with both of those scenarios: return of the sock. It's not classic, it's not how the endgame was meant to be played, and there's no reason for it. There are 9,000 better ways to cater to a small European population that, as Autotune pointed out, doesn't even comprise a guild of their own at the moment.

You're very right, 18hrs is not going to make it rapid fire respawn every time it comes around, but that's not exactly what it's intended to do.

While you get the 18hr windows, you basically only deal with them every other week. Guilds would get bi-weekly repops (something that should be in already) and then the next week they get the variance. 18hrs won't give them rapid fire repops, but does put urgency into targets as well as priority when it comes to decision making for guilds.

BDA can take out most (if not all) of VP. Divinity can kill many of the kunark dragons solo, same with taken and some of the other guilds (only difficult one being gore). Smaller guilds can take out some of the same dragons and other targets.

I honestly see nearly every raid capable guild joining in and taking a slice of the pie where they can and as previous p99 history tells me, during repops most guilds try to travel the path of least resistance.

All this does is eliminate the advantage that huge guilds hold over small guilds. If nothing else, it gets the smaller/normal guilds involved.

Who cares if they poop sock a few windows here and there, odds are that they won't have to poop sock long, if even at all. Not all windows ride out to a poopsock.

[Asher]

BDA can take out most (if not all) of VP.

First let me say I sincerely appreciate your input and polite conduct in this discussion.

Secondly, lets all not forget that we need the GMs to remove this silliness of legal training in VP.

It was never tolerated on live and should not be tolerated here.

Asher

[Autotune]

First let me say I sincerely appreciate your input and polite conduct in this discussion.

Secondly, lets all not forget that we need the GMs to remove this silliness of legal training in VP.

It was never tolerated on live and should not be tolerated here.

Asher

Eh? You say that as if it's a shocker lol

on your second point, we definitely disagree.

[Alarti0001]

First let me say I sincerely appreciate your input and polite conduct in this discussion.

Secondly, lets all not forget that we need the GMs to remove this silliness of legal training in VP.

It was never tolerated on live and should not be tolerated here.

Asher

It was tolerated on live.

[Boilon]

Not like it really matters, there hasn't been an European guild on the server for ages. Another victim of huge variance windows.

what about Europa :P? Although I wouldn't say we are a huge factor in the raid scene ( maybe one day, if all of our MIA members come back after the summer)

[Autotune]

what about Europa :P? Although I wouldn't say we are a huge factor in the raid scene ( maybe one day, if all of our MIA members come back after the summer)

I should have said raiding capable euro guild lol. I actually don't know if you guys are raid capable, but i haven't seen anything to even suggest that you guys are. No offenses.

[Harazzer]

It was tolerated on live.

Honestly on live there was legal training in every zone on tallon zek, not sure if they did anything it on blue servers. It was a tactic, it could be countered or used to advantage. Of course with pvp and zoneline control it was sort of your own fault if you got trained but hey that is a whole other discussion.

Anyway, I would just like to say I am not a fan of how the GM staff uses this selective process of reverting features to "classic" while other things like this variance situation are kept in a non-classic state because its their general opinion of what is best for the server. So many features of everquest that were added over the course of several years have been removed simply to make the game less user friendly (target rings, pet window, compass, /tgb, the more advanced item descriptions, ect.) These are UI enhancements that give players no benefit really outside of generalized convenience.Yet they are removed in some sort of bizzaro crusade to get the interface close to classic while numerous mechanics and server settings remain decidedly not classic. Some things you can hide behind the argument that it is unprovable but the variance situation is documented.

[Picked]

"It was allowed on Live" is a pretty ambiguous term. Different servers operated differently. On Povar and Mith Marr I never remember training being tolerated. If it was petitioned and someone was caught it was dealt with.

Not saying that's the way it should be here, just saying that not every server operated under the same GM team, and they didn't all handle things the same ways.

Through the years on live servers consolidations happened fairly frequently for awhile and being on 3 or 4 different servers over the years there was always adjusting to be done with rules and the way people handled things.

[Nlaar]

http://content.internetvideoarchive.com/content/photos/7086/29764503_.jpg

Bumpy Pooh !

[Tarathiel]

bump

[Nlaar]

Bumpage.

[gloine36]

Just ban the top guild every other week for weekly reboots.

[Asher]

Was the FTE rule the new modifications to the raid scene that Nilbog said would make things better?

How many months does it take to start implementing some ideas?

Even if you state that they may only be temporary, anything is better than the current situation for everyone but one guild.

Asher

[Nlaar]

burp bump.

[Rogean]

This is a continuation from the other thread ( http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86005 ).

Here is what nilbog and I are currently planning/designing/brainstorming:

We will be cutting the variance in half on the existing raid spawns.

We will be implementing an FTE notice of some sort, whether this is an emote or some type of message.

We will be implementing a simulated patch day respawn. Here is how it will work.

The server will pick one day of each week (Random 1 to 7, Sunday through Saturday). It will then pick a random time. I will not disclose the range of the possible times, but it will only include afternoon and evening hours, so as to give the best chance for the most people to benefit from it.

A serverwide message will go off indicating that the simulated patch day respawn has or will be taking effect shortly. All raid mobs will (either immediately, delayed, or spanned, tbd) respawn.

These respawns will NOT affect the normal respawn times of the mob. For example. If Talendor was killed on Monday, and on death the server determined he would spawn again on Sunday. A simulated patch day occurs on Thursday, his death on Thursday will not reset his scheduled respawn time on Sunday.
Exception: If the mob's spawn time is scheduled to occur within (To be determined, probably either 6 or 12 hours) of the simulated patch day respawn, it will calculate a new spawn time for the mob as it would had he been killed normally, when he dies from the simulated respawn.

Discuss, and know that this system is not final, now or even when it goes live. We will evaluate how it plays out.

[Nagash]

Yay!

[fadetree]

Sounds good to me.

[Ferok]

Awesome.

[bizzum]

I think weekly simulated patches plus regular pops that aren't affected by the patches is too many boss mobs for this low population. Not that I am opposed to giving people more chance at loot, but things are going to get flooded fast.

[Zeelot]

Sounds great! My only complaint is that a repop every week is a lot, but its not like I have a big issue with it :p
More is better in a way. I just think it would be more interesting if there are random weeks without repops.

[BigSlip]

bout time you gave all these sub par bluebies something to do besides whine!

[Ferok]

I think weekly simulated patches plus regular pops that aren't affected by the patches is too many boss mobs for this low population. Not that I am opposed to giving people more chance at loot, but things are going to get flooded fast.
I actually tend to agree. Simulated respawn should be simulated reset.

[SirAlvarex]

I like your solution to the resetting of the respawn timer. This will allow for more attempts on the mobs.

I understand the "will not disclose respawn until shortly before it happens", but it would be nice if it were longer for players like me so I can schedule around it (when possible). But I see that as a nice compromise for the guilds that enjoy the rush of batphoning.

[feanan]

I feel good knowing that some things are in the works to try and help out with the current raiding issues.

Though it may take some amount of time to see how they work out, and to tweak them, gotta start somewhere.

Excited to see how this all plays out :)

[Furniture]

This sounds great except that patch day resets will only happen afternoon and evening. There are plenty of people who only get to really play in the mornings, and these people will therefore never get to experience a patch day reset.

Your already cutting down variance, and giving patch day resets, please just let the patch day reset have chances of spawning into the morning or even get rid of the range of times completely.

Your giving a lot to cater to everyone as it is. Having patch day resets that have a chance of happening in the morning and not just afternoon and evening would not hurt anyone. Please consider it

[Lazortag]

This is a continuation from the other thread ( http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86005 ).

Here is what nilbog and I are currently planning/designing/brainstorming:

We will be cutting the variance in half on the existing raid spawns.

We will be implementing an FTE notice of some sort, whether this is an emote or some type of message.

We will be implementing a simulated patch day respawn. Here is how it will work.

The server will pick one day of each week (Random 1 to 7, Sunday through Saturday). It will then pick a random time. I will not disclose the range of the possible times, but it will only include afternoon and evening hours, so as to give the best chance for the most people to benefit from it.

A serverwide message will go off indicating that the simulated patch day respawn has or will be taking effect shortly. All raid mobs will (either immediately, delayed, or spanned, tbd) respawn.

These respawns will NOT affect the normal respawn times of the mob. For example. If Talendor was killed on Monday, and on death the server determined he would spawn again on Sunday. A simulated patch day occurs on Thursday, his death on Thursday will not reset his scheduled respawn time on Sunday.
Exception: If the mob's spawn time is scheduled to occur within (To be determined, probably either 6 or 12 hours) of the simulated patch day respawn, it will calculate a new spawn time for the mob as it would had he been killed normally, when he dies from the simulated respawn.

Discuss, and know that this system is not final, now or even when it goes live. We will evaluate how it plays out.

A few things:

Firstly, the repops on Live would reset the timers, so I believe they should do so here. Otherwise it seems like this just leads to twice as many mobs spawning which isn't quite classic (there should be more than normal, sure, but not twice a week).

Secondly, I think the variance should always be +/-12 hours. The reasoning is this: a 24 hour window makes any time that the mob could spawn equiprobable, so that players from all time zones can benefit. Any window that is some other multiple of 24 hours long just requires a bigger time investment, while making the mobs no more accessible to euros/aussies/etc.

Thirdly, the simultaneous repops should be announced some time in advance, as all patches on Live were. How long in advance, I don't know. Any more than an hour seems like a bit much.

Fourthly I think there should be a chance (albeit very small) of simultaneous repops happening in the mornings, perhaps on weekends when more people can be online, because of the arguments mentioned by the poster before me. (edit) this is the least important though since varianced spawns can still happen at those times.

Apart from that I think these changes sound great, thanks Rogean/Nilbog

[Fountree]

Besides the issue of possibly flooding the server with too many high end items, this is a nice compromise imho.

[bizzum]

The time frame for the repops should be done in PST, Sony did things PST!!! (Shameless attempt to help my schedule.)

[Ferok]

We will be cutting the variance in half on the existing raid spawns.

Some of you missed this.

[Heebo]

This sounds awesome. Thank you Rogean!

[Raavak]

Exception: If the mob's spawn time is scheduled to occur within (To be determined, probably either 6 or 12 hours) of the simulated patch day respawn, it will calculate a new spawn time for the mob as it would had he been killed normally, when he dies from the simulated respawn.
Or if a mob is left up from an earlier simulated patch respawn, I assume.

[sivax]

I'm not even up to raiding level yet but seeing this debate rage on for at least the year I've been playing has been tiresome. Your solutions look good to a novice, and seems to give people most of what they want. Here's hoping the system ends up keeping the forum rage down. Thanks for all the work you guys put in.

[Heebo]

Or if a mob is left up from an earlier simulated patch respawn, I assume.

Fighting two Trakanons at once would be sweet.

[quido]

Aside from the few details that need to be worked out, sounds like a lot of fun!

[godbox]

wonderful /applaud

and if tmo gets every single kill of the increase spawns off of the variance at least it will decrease eces Trak bp and epic mq prices

[SirAlvarex]

wonderful /applaud

and if tmo gets every single kill of the increase spawns off of the variance at least it will decrease eces Trak bp and epic mq prices

This.

And if it doesn't work, no harm no foul.

[Dantes]

I'm sure there's still gonna be disputes and issues no matter what, but this sounds much more fun and true to classic. I might agree with some folks who are saying "weekly" might be too frequent for simulated resets, maybe every other week instead.

[Pringles]

Doesnt sound classic to me.

Put back in maps, compass, pet UI, luclin models while you're at it.

[Slave]

Extremely good news, that begs one question.

Rogean, why not eliminate variance all together now? It serves no purpose under these rules. With the FTE and simulated respawns, everyone is going to know everything significant. At this point the variance only serves to... I don't know, you tell me? If you wanted to just slow down the introduction of loot into the server, the free simulated patches kind of cancels that out. We would then be as close as modernly possible to a Classic raid scene.

[Ferok]

Extremely good news, that begs one question.

Rogean, why not eliminate variance all together now? It serves no purpose under these rules. With the FTE and simulated respawns, everyone is going to know everything significant. At this point the variance only serves to... I don't know, you tell me? If you wanted to just slow down the introduction of loot into the server, the free simulated patches kind of cancels that out. And you would be as close as modernly possible to a Classic raid scene.

If FTE notifications work as well as considered on paper - you're right. If not, they're back to an unacceptable level of CS intervention. I'm sure they want to test the waters with this first.

[KefkaPalazzo]

this has zero effect on me but good to see some activity Brogean. +1

[Raavak]

Rogean, why not eliminate variance all together now? It serves no purpose under these rules.
Fixed spawns would still encourage poopsocking, which I think everyone agrees sucks.

[BigSlip]

care bears thriving

[Slave]

If FTE notifications work as well as considered on paper - you're right. If not, they're back to an unacceptable level of CS intervention. I'm sure they want to test the waters with this first.

You know, you're probably right. I just assume that when the rules are very clearly written like this with in-game mechanics to support it, that people will follow them and take some pride in the server again. Maybe just a pipe dream but I think that P99 historians will look back on this moment as a turning point in guild relations and endgame raid scene.

[Lazortag]

Extremely good news, that begs one question.

Rogean, why not eliminate variance all together now? It serves no purpose under these rules. With the FTE and simulated respawns, everyone is going to know everything significant. At this point the variance only serves to... I don't know, you tell me? If you wanted to just slow down the introduction of loot into the server, the free simulated patches kind of cancels that out. We would then be as close as modernly possible to a Classic raid scene.

What about players from other time zones?

[Rovas]

http://i.imgur.com/CF62E.gif

[Versus]

Sounds like a fuckwad of mobs.

Perhaps the random respawns SHOULD reset the mobs timers, especially if windows are cut in half.

[Slave]

Fixed spawns would still encourage poopsocking, which I think everyone agrees sucks.

Poopsocking is meaningless under FTE, and was a direct result of variance. That was the consensus of the prior 30-page thread, and the other ten to fifteen 30-page threads before that one.

[Clark]

I approve this message.

[Slave]

What about players from other time zones?

You're right, and the obvious solution to this is for the respawn to be at a random time. Which takes away from the entire point of them being during more-accessible hours, which I can certainly see the reason for. It's a tricky question but I think the greatest amount of quality for the greatest amount of people is the way it should go. This is still going to mean up to a 48-hour variance which I know you don't agree with either. Doesn't it only need to be up to about 6 hours to benefit our friends across the seas?

[cyryllis]

lowers price of items, increases chances of 2nd and 3rd tier guilds to actually attempt decent raid targets, and this will be much more in tune with the rate of server resets that Live had...


The only downside to this, is that peoples 30/60/90 day raid attendance numbers may be harder to maintain with twice as many raids per week called =P

[Eccezan]

Sounds like a fuckwad of mobs.

Perhaps the random respawns SHOULD reset the mobs timers, especially if windows are cut in half.

Either this, or respawn mobs drop less loot (and idea Rogean brought up) Thus giving the casual player a better chance to see/kill a dragon, while simultaneously not flooding the market with more Orb of Tishan's and Heirophant's Crooks.

[Frieza_Prexus]

This is an excellent step and I applaud the staff for their efforts.

That said, I do want to echo Giegue's comments. perhaps it could be weighted away from AM spawns, but I don't want to see our foreign friends excluded from these repops.

Secondly, What if we open the repop variance to say 9 or 10 days? I'd hate to see even more high end flooding of items, and it should reset spawn timers in my view.

Again, I'm enthused by these changes, but with a little tweaking this could become even better.

[BigSlip]

http://i.imgur.com/CF62E.gif

perfect

[Splorf22]

Sounds fantastic. Some feedback:

1. I *gasp* agree with TMO: weekly resets plus normal pops are probably too many items. Maybe fewer resets, or resets affecting normal timers, or boss mobs dropping 2/3 as much loot, something like this.

2. Maybe the whole zone should repop. Otherwise for example you see the respawn message, clear the guards, and kill the boss mob easily when it spawns.

3. Another random idea: I would love to see 'char binding'. In other words for the duration of the simulated repop you can only have one character of L45+ logged on. This prevents people with 3+ L60 chars from camping them out fully buffed at each spawnpoint and switching rapidly between accounts.

Overall though I think its a great start and my favorite part is


Discuss, and know that this system is not final, now or even when it goes live. We will evaluate how it plays out.


I think as long as you guys agree that the current raid scene is poor and are willing to try a few things and experiment you can come up with something that makes everyone reasonably happy.

[bulbousaur]

Sounds like fun!

[Eccezan]

3. Another random idea: I would love to see 'char binding'. In other words for the duration of the simulated repop you can only have one character of L45+ logged on. This prevents people with 3+ L60 chars from camping them out fully buffed at each spawnpoint and switching rapidly between accounts.

An interesting idea that might be too tough to manage, and would probably conflict with IP exemptions.

[Halfelfbard]

Bring it.

[Splorf22]

Well if they have DLLs in place they can get some hashcode for your computer directly. Anyway I was just thinking that if I was Zeelot with 100 people each with 2-3 L60 chars, I'd have them camp out 50% trakanon 25% VS and maybe 25% Sev or so. Log on, kill boss, and the mobilize everyone for VP.

One other thing: please, please, please enforce training rules in VP. The whole point of the simultaneous repop is to spread guilds out. With current training rules BDA refuses to go there, so TMO can just save VP for last. If TMO can't train in VP, BDA will go there first (I'm guessing) and TMO will get at most VS and Trak before heading to VP for Phara Dar. That leaves everything else up for a solid hour or so.

[mitic]

great news, i hope this will help to keep blue players staying on the server. thanks again for your great effort!

[Slave]

With all due respect, stupid fucking idea

TMO, you have the right to state your displeasure with the removal of the artificial system that has been such a boon for your guild.

You do NOT have the right to call a long-needed and soul-wrangled compromise "a stupid fucking idea" without looking like a total douchebag.

The developers deserve a ton of credit for taking swifter and more effective action than anyone has had a right to expect.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think Loraen also has an excellent point. The zone itself should repop. Hell, the whole world should repop.

One of the best things about a complete reset was that ALL timers instantly became known. When the server went down you KNEW Hadden would be up, you KNEW Stormfeather and Lodizal would be walking around. This wrestled the timer away from the previous person who had been timing and controlling the spawn.

Total repops have a freshening effect and I think it should be pursued.

EDIT: regarding VP, if the zone itself does not repop any see invis wurms will be cleared before hand. A Phara`Dar raid could be called and executed within 20 minutes from start to zoning out of VP. While this certainly is a time advantage for other guilds, it's not quite as large as one might think. Especially if there is no training in VP.

[Slave]

Total repops have a freshening effect and I think it should be pursued.

I could support exploring this mechanic, except that it's somewhat unnecessary compared with Velious content programming. There has never really been a major issue with normal camps with the clear and decisive camp ownership rules we have now. Quite unlike the furor and constant problems with raiding.

[Ele]

With all due respect, stupid fucking idea

Which part do you disagree with and what is your alternative proposal?

[Servellious]

Rogean, if you could consider and looking into guilds not kiting trains through or near other guilds camps.

Running mobs by while other guilds are fighting or healing or buffing can cause havoc, i think its a simple fair rule to consider.

[Raavak]

Poopsocking is meaningless under FTE, and was a direct result of variance. That was the consensus of the prior 30-page thread, and the other ten to fifteen 30-page threads before that one.

I stand corrected. I actually mistated what I was thinking.

But FTE sniping is just as gay. We've seen this in PoSky since nobles are on a fixed spawn. Enough variance to discourage guilds from sitting at spawn points is probably warranted. Variance itself isn't classic, but the gameplay that comes from it is more classic.

[Zeelot]

TMO, you have the right to state your displeasure with the removal of the artificial system that has been such a boon for your guild.

You do NOT have the right to call a long-needed and soul-wrangled compromise "a stupid fucking idea" without looking like a total douchebag.

The developers deserve a ton of credit for taking swifter and more effective action than anyone has had a right to expect.

Korrath is not a spokesperson for TMO, nor are the other members who post here. A lot of you need to learn the difference between leadership/members opinions. Most of what you see on the p1999 forums has nothing to do with the leadership.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Rogean, if you could consider and looking into guilds not kiting trains through or near other guilds camps.

Running mobs by while other guilds are fighting or healing or buffing can cause havoc, i think its a simple fair rule to consider.

While this is quite possibly a very legitimate point, this thread needs to remain focus on the proposed mechanics, not as a panacea for every problem.

[Ambrotos]

3. Another random idea: I would love to see 'char binding'. In other words for the duration of the simulated repop you can only have one character of L45+ logged on. This prevents people with 3+ L60 chars from camping them out fully buffed at each spawnpoint and switching rapidly between accounts.


An interesting idea that might be too tough to manage, and would probably conflict with IP exemptions.

IP exemptions are for people to have others play with them at their houses. It's not to have a number of accounts with IP exemptions because they lied as to why they wanted one, so they can have one ready to log in as soon as something spawns. It is now something we can watch for.

[Slave]

Korrath is not a spokesperson for TMO, nor are the other members who post here. A lot of you need to learn the difference between leadership/members opinions. Most of what you see on the p1999 forums has nothing to do with the leadership.

Every member of your guild is a representative of your guild. A lot of you need to learn the difference between responsibility and making excuses for passing the buck.

[Anichek]

Instead of shitting on this thread, all I can say is out-fucking-standing ..... kudos to the devs!

[KefkaPalazzo]

imo they should just spawn 100 of each dragon and let everyone goto town.

[Rovas]

Thanks for removing my post :D

>Day Mad

[Tarathiel]

this is awesome, i have a renewed hope in the raid scene. obviously some kinks will need to be worked out but this is a step in the right direction.

[Splorf22]

With all due respect,

Whenever someone says this, you know they are about to say something rude. I always found it kind of hilarious that people think they can say whatever they want when they preface it like this. But here's one of my favorite quotes of all time for yall:

If I were to say that the so-called philosophy of this fellow Hegel is a colossal piece of mystification which will yet provide posterity with an inexhaustible theme for laughter at our times, that it is a pseudo-philosophy paralyzing all mental powers, stifling all real thinking, and, by the most outrageous misuse of language, putting in its place the hollowest, most senseless, thoughtless, and, as is confirmed by its success, most stupefying verbiage, I should be quite right.

Back on topic, personally I agree with Xasten; the best and most classic thing is simply to reset the entire server. Everything repops, period. Those annoying see invis wurms/illis shamans in the jail. Epic mobs. Everything. Give like a 30 minute warning, and then teleport all players in zone to the zone succor point and respawn everything across all zones.

But overall I think any sort of simultaneous repop is great. The only tweak that might be necessary is something to prevent what I described earlier: many players have multiple L60 accounts (even people not in TMO, like, sadly, me). The strategy already is to camp out fully buffed for multiple mobs. So I think something along the lines of 'once you log on during the first 2 hours after a reset on one character, you can't switch' would really help.

Korrath is not a spokesperson for TMO, nor are the other members who post here. A lot of you need to learn the difference between leadership/members opinions. Most of what you see on the p1999 forums has nothing to do with the leadership.

The reality is all of your members are spokespeople for your guild. They may not be official, but they influence peoples opinions. There is a reason Coldblooded was always bitching about Yendor and Anthrax and RnF.

[Slave]

But overall I think any sort of simultaneous repop is great. The only tweak that might be necessary is something to prevent what I described earlier: many players have multiple L60 accounts (even people not in TMO, like, sadly, me). The strategy already is to camp out fully buffed for multiple mobs. So I think something along the lines of 'once you log on during the first 2 hours after a reset on one character, you can't switch' would really help.


With all due respect, this punishes people like me who play a lot of different characters, as well as those who have legally bought and sold accounts in order to be effective in such a way. I have never done so and probably never will but it has always been a legitimate tactic on P99.

[KefkaPalazzo]

I am starting to see why WoW went with instances lol. Grown ass men and she-men hogging all the pixels.