Dot Stacking / Debuff Limit

[entilza]

In the original EQ Classic, I remember 2 same class casters could not both cast the same dot spell and it stack on the mob.

This must have been either a major bug or by design. Multiple dots now would obviously cause more damage than was achievable back in 99. So perhaps raiding might be a bit easier now than it was back in 99.

Also I believe there was a max of how many debuffs could be on a mob? This might have been why they could not have dot stacking as well. Later this was removed after expansions.

I know here we can stack dots, which is great for grouping. We might just have to respect raiding may be easier due to this new ability.

Comments?

[magic]

You could stack dots in 99, you couldn't stack dots with Snare components.

Edit: Debuff-type spells didn't stack for sure, i.e. siphon strength, tashan, malo, etc

[Boomlaor]

You could stack *different* dots, even within the same line. I.e. a higher lvl poison dot and a lower lvl poison dot. If a second caster tried to put at dot on the mob which was already on it, however, it would simply overwrite the first dot and restart the timer.

[JohnPublic]

If dots are stacking and mobs can take an unlimited number of debuffs that COMPLETELY changes raiding. In the original game a mob could only have one of each dot or debuff on him and the total number of effects on the mob was limited (15?). Not only that, but there were certain dots from different classes that wouldn't stack with each other and certain lines would only let you have you of that line on the mob. For instance if there were two druids in a raid one could cast a disease based dot and the other would have to cast a dot from the fire line. The second even druid couldn't even cast a lower level dot from the disease line.

If you can, in fact, stack multiple copies of the same debuff and dot on mobs, we're not even playing close to the same game as original EQ. Is this the case?!

If this is true it is a gigantic issue and most probably the reason that the high level guilds seem to be having a cakewalk on raids.

EDIT: Found this archived link to support the original dot stacking mechanic:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000822125319/www.eqdruids.com/dot.htm

[guineapig]

Aha! I should have made a necro or druid :(

[Jify]

If this is true it is a gigantic issue and most probably the reason that the high level guilds seem to be having a cakewalk on raids.

Not to be mean or anything, but just facts. We have very few "doting" classes. I don't think dot stacking could be attributed to the easier kills. However, I still believe that prior knowledge of all encounters & highly skilled players are making the raids what they are, easier.

Now, this will make things easier when it comes to "longer" encounters in Velious and high-end Kunark. Right now, the mobs are lucky to last a minute or two.

Peace <3

Edit: Soo. I totally agree that dot stacking should be taken out. Same with pet heals, etc. But I don't think this is a "high priority" fix. I'm assuming it wouldn't be fun to code.

[JohnPublic]

Fair enough. I got a little carried away there, but it certainly could make a difference.

To clarify though, are debuffs stacking without limit? I can't imagine fighting mobs with multiple slows on it.

[Aaron]

Not to be mean or anything, but just facts. We have very few "doting" classes. I don't think dot stacking could be attributed to the easier kills. However, I still believe that prior knowledge of all encounters & highly skilled players are making the raids what they are, easier.

Now, this will make things easier when it comes to "longer" encounters in Velious and high-end Kunark. Right now, the mobs are lucky to last a minute or two.

Peace <3

Edit: Soo. I totally agree that dot stacking should be taken out. Same with pet heals, etc. But I don't think this is a "high priority" fix. I'm assuming it wouldn't be fun to code.


I didn't realize this was an issue, but the way I see it, this is a HUGE exploit of the original game. How could this not be a high priority fix? From where I'm sitting, this is the biggest hole in the game that I've seen yet.

DoTs stacking, and more importantly, debuffs stacking, makes killing big mobs about 10x easier. Personally, I'm not playing this game for the big kills anymore or even to achieve high level - just for the nostalgia. But it takes a lot away from that to see bugs used to kill big mobs, and then crediting your superior skills.

[Jify]

I didn't realize this was an issue, but the way I see it, this is a HUGE exploit of the original game. How could this not be a high priority fix? From where I'm sitting, this is the biggest hole in the game that I've seen yet.

DoTs stacking, and more importantly, debuffs stacking, makes killing big mobs about 10x easier. Personally, I'm not playing this game for the big kills anymore or even to achieve high level - just for the nostalgia. But it takes a lot away from that to see bugs used to kill big mobs, and then crediting your superior skills.


Are we talking about having two "Stinging Swarms" on a mob, or two "Tigur's Insects". I was under the impression that this was totally and completely DoT related.

Being that it is only DoT related, I speculate that this is not a high priority because raid mobs do not have the HP at the moment to make "one extra DoT" a game breaking problem.

IF this isn't the case, and IF ALL DEBUFFS stack, then yes. HUGE exploit factor, huge priority etc. However, I think you took the last post out of context, and jumped to a conclusion that all debuffs stack.

<3 Jify

[JohnPublic]

Can we get confirmation that it is only dots and not debuffs that stack? Just to look at dots though:

Three necros should COMBINED be able to put one Cascade, one Ignite Blood, and one Bond of death for a total of 3000 dmg. If all of their dots stack and you can put multiple lines on a mob they could each put these on plus a Asystole, Scourge, and Chilling Embrace each for 14,526 damage. That's 12,000 more damage for these three characters every minute and a half. Total that would be 12 dots which should allow only three other dots/debuffs to be placed on the mob, but with unlimited slots you could stack even more dots on!

Someone please tell me this is not how it is currently working. = /

EDIT:
If I am right, then everyone should immediately reroll as necros, druids, and shaman. That's all we really need. = P

[Tanknstein]

druids have 2 sorts of dots. one is the stinging swarm line and the second is the fire based dot with an AC debuff in it.

The fire based dot does not stack. Its because of the AC debuff.

The stinging swarm dot does stack. I can stack all upgrades of the spell on eachother. and if i'm grouped with another druid. that druid can cast all his dots of that spell line on the mob as well.

But this is just how it should be. You can read comments about it here:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=259

[JohnPublic]

That's how it became later on. Read this page archived from June 6, 2000:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000822125319/www.eqdruids.com/dot.htm

[Jify]

EDIT:
If I am right, then everyone should immediately reroll as necros, druids, and shaman. That's all we really need. = P

Reroll Mage IMO. Do that 3k Dmg in 20s.

[Tanknstein]

That's how it became later on. Read this page archived from June 6, 2000:
http://web.archive.org/web/20000822125319/www.eqdruids.com/dot.htm

ok. then it's not working correct right now. And it's a big issue. its a lot of extra damage thats being done.

[JohnPublic]

Reroll Mage IMO. Do that 3k Dmg in 20s.
The difference is that the necros can sustain that damage at full mana while not picking up aggro. I also didn't mention that they could stack in another 5-6 lower level dots each for even more dot stacking insanity.

But since mage pets look to be out-tanking warriors, I'll let them in the list as well.

[entilza]

I appreciate the comments so far, as it seems to have brought up a lot of good discussion.

I think the 15 Debuff Limit is also a key issue too because then technically the raid would have to decide who is going to do what spells. I also remember this as a 15 limit. As you said there are many lower level debuffs that could be chained for even more added damage, by all classes.

[JohnPublic]

I think the 15 Debuff Limit is also a key issue too because then technically the raid would have to decide who is going to do what spells. I also remember this as a 15 limit. As you said there are many lower level debuffs that could be chained for even more added damage, by all classes.
QFT.

A major component of raiding was deciding who would cast which dots/debuffs and which were the most important and in some cases what order certain debuffs would be placed on. Without that limit and with dots stacking every encounter is possible as a giant zerg with everyone just casting everything they have as fast as they can.

[messiah_b]

Dots and debuffs were certainly mob based.

Trying to summarize some of the rules / discussions of this thread

Known:
1) The same exact spell could not stack regardless of source.
2) Hard cap of 15 negative effects on a mob

Under review:

Debuffs (I am thinking a mob would only accept one effect per attribute, ie only one -ac, only one -atk speed, only one -run speed etc)

Spell line stacking - ie downcasting various levels of druids swarm series. Pretty sure you could stack these, but with the other limits in place such as only the highest level debuff of a given attribute taking hold (preventing stacking of fire/ac debuff from druid line), as well as the 15 hard cap (would discourage stacking a lvl 15 dot on Nagafan)


Any thoughts on these?

[guineapig]

On a side note though, raid bosses usually have high resists and I would assume that the lower level versions of some spells simply won't land... unless of course you can stack tash/malo as well.

Could be wrong though. Somebody stated that dots that include debuffs don't stack with earlier versions. I will check this tonight on my chanter with: Choke / Suffocating Sphere. Both of those dots have a debuff component.

[JohnPublic]

Spell line stacking - ie downcasting various levels of druids swarm series. Pretty sure you could stack these, but with the other limits in place such as only the highest level debuff of a given attribute taking hold (preventing stacking of fire/ac debuff from druid line), as well as the 15 hard cap (would discourage stacking a lvl 15 dot on Nagafan)

Flamelick and Immolate would not stack in the original game.

[kr0w17]

As I recall it worked very similarly to Buffs, in that a better version of a spell would overwrite a lower version. And, while some dots and dbuffs did stack, it was only occasionally, for instance I think rangers had a spell that was very nice specifically because it DID stack with others spells of it's type (I can't remember the spell and will have to call up my ranger friend on the phone to get the name but the only thing that is important is that very few spells stacked that acted in similar ways) I always understood that a great deal of R&D + testing went into how spells stacked and what stacked with what. It was one of the top 5 reasons raid planning was essential and brought depth and dynamic interplay to how classes interacted together and played specific rolls in groups.

[Aeolwind]

Remember one thing, most raid mobs are completely immune to magic due to the inability to flag them immune to slow. So all magic based dots hare fighting against at least a 1000 resist and should have no chance of landing. If this is not the case please tell us now.

[messiah_b]

Are you saying magic based dots as in generically all cast dots, or are you referring to specifically a save vs. magic of 1000. Wouldn't that allow nature, poison, fire, cold etc to stick?

[kr0w17]

Aye, the vast majority of DoTs are not magic based (ie linked to the magic resist) mostly poison and disease based?

[JohnPublic]

Shaman dots are disease and poison.
Druid dots are fire and magic.
Necros have fire, poison, disease, and magic.

[Falisaty]

so does this mean since malo is a magic based debuff it will never land? except for the lvl 60 one which is guaranted to land.