Enchanter mez and memblur

[Dersk]

On live, and as far back as I ever played: On low level mobs (the cut off being somewhere between 30 and 35), a successful application of any spell in the mez line (mesmerize, enthrall, entrance, mesmerization, etc) will, 100% of the time, wipe the memory of the mob. However, I have mezzed several things with mesmerize and have yet to see a successful memwipe.

Lucy shows a 1% chance, though that only applies to enemies that are higher level and no longer have the guaranteed memblur. It looks to me that p1999 is treating the chance to blur the same for all level ranges, which it is most certainly not how live has operated. I'll note that there is an exception to the workings of mez memblur, in that reapplying the same mez before it wears off will re-aggro the mob but not blur it. Overwriting one mez with another, however, will successfully memwipe the mob on live.

The level range that this applys is the same level range that a successful feign death should, 100% of the time, completely mem wipe the mob with respect to the player that feigns death. On higher level enemies, the feign death will only shed all memory of agro some of the time. I can't check this since I don't have a FD capable character on p1999 yet.

Edit: I forgot as I assumed it won't matter: The enemies I've seen mez not blur are snakes, skunks, kobolds, beetles, and skeletons in toxxulia; wisps and the madman in erud's crossing; snakes, beetles, bats, gnolls, skeletons, wolves, and bears in qeynos and qeynos hills. And, much to my lament, gnolls in blackburrow.

[Branaddar]

This is the case with FD, but not with mez. I never recall mez memblurring 100% in any situation whatsoever.

[Simplistik]

Mez spells have an chance to mem blur a mob some of the time I know this was the case Kunark +, unsure about Classic though.

[Aeolwind]

Yeah, memblur has never been a no-fail situation. Even the GM Memblur lol.

[guineapig]

Yeah, memblur has never been a no-fail situation. Even the GM Memblur lol.

Wow, now that is surprising!

[Dersk]

Yeah, memblur has never been a no-fail situation. Even the GM Memblur lol.

1st, it's how the spell works on live and has done so for years. I can't find any comments or patch notes saying it has ever changed.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010505022101/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/enchanter/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=20
A mesmerised monster also has around a 95% chance of having its Hate List wiped, similiar to the effects of Memory Blur. Just make sure you are beyond the frenzy range when it wears off to ensure success.

The difference here between their 95% chance and my claim of 100% chance can be explained by refreshing mez, which doesn't mem blur, or assist agro. That same bit is listed on the spell information for all the mezes.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010505023550/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/enchanter/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=115
Now, if I Entrance/Enthrall/Mesmerize a mob and leave, it *NEVER* comes after me

http://web.archive.org/web/20040528211750/www.therunes.net/spells4.htm

The runes said "wipe hate list", not % chance. That's a bit vague, but no where have I found evidence of mez being unable to wipe the hate list.

The blur is a no-fail situation, and I'm kinda surprised someone could have played an enchanter and not notice that. The only limitation that I've ever been able to verify is that a refreshed mez will not blur, but alternating mezes, i.e. using enthrall to overwrite a mesmerize, will properly blur.

In response to tests showing 100% blur rate from '04:http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5300

Guard E'Brona is level 15. If I recall correctly, before level 35, monsters are highly, if not completely, susceptible to memory blur. After 35, memory blur doesn't work that reliably.

[Malrubius]

The blur is a no-fail situation, and I'm kinda surprised someone could have played an enchanter and not notice that.

Memblur was definitely NOT a no-fail situation in classic. I definitely remember times when I needed to recast it (General Bragmur for the 8th shawl comes to mind) when the first blur didn't wipe.

Your quote above from therunes even says "After 35, memory blur doesn't work that reliably. "

If I had to guess, I would say it worked about 90% of the time (post 35 anyway - never really played with it before that).


Mez could and did wipe the hate list as well (in Classic). In fact, I recall that it *very often* wiped the hate list in Classic, but not as reliably as Memblur.

[guineapig]

I can only remember as far back is PoP era for memblurs because I didn't have too much use for it before then... unless I was soloing and got in a bad situation far from zone.

Anyway, at level 50 I usually spell Reoccurring Amnesia because it's the most likely to not get resisted by a tashed planar mob.

But as you can see by what it does, the odds aren't exactly awesome on it working:

Slot Description
1: Memblur (25%)
Lasts for 4 tics.

In tabletop terms, you get a 4-sided die to roll 4 times and are trying to score a 4 once out of those 4 times.

[Dersk]

Memblur was definitely NOT a no-fail situation in classic. I definitely remember times when I needed to recast it (General Bragmur for the 8th shawl comes to mind) when the first blur didn't wipe.

General Bragmur is level 40, which is relevantly higher than 35. My original post, the posts I have quoted, and the current workings on EQlive apply to mobs under level 35, though I'll admit the older castersrealm info doesn't appear to know enough to clarify that distinction. I know that the memory blur effects of mezzes are not 100% reliable above level 35. I avoided listing it every single time because I really didn't want to be too repetitive hah.

As far as the memory blur spell, I have never tested it on EQlive nor have I accessed it on P1999, so I can't really comment one way or the other. I was attempting to describe the memory blur effect of mesmerize spells. I do apologize if that got confusing.

If what I've given isn't appropriate for verifying the specific mechanics I'm describing, then simply let me know what would be considered sufficient proof, so I know what to look for. Hell, if I have to go to WeGame and record a video of me mezzing level 1 mobs on EQlive then I'll consider it.

[guineapig]

I don't think it has anything to do with the level of the mob:

Memory Blur
Slot Description
1: Memblur (10%)

They are nowhere near 100% reliable. Each cast is exactly 10% reliable, but this goes for any mob that you can successfully cast it on, regardless of level.


Mind Wipe
Slot Description
1: Memblur (15%)


Blanket of Forgetfulness
Slot Description
1: Memblur (20%)
2: Memblur (20%)

Reoccurring Amnesia
Slot Description
1: Memblur (25%)
4 tics

[guineapig]

Oh almost forgot, currently the best mez in the game has a 1% chance of membluring the mob:

Dazzle
Slot Description
1: Mesmerize (2/55)
2: Memblur (1%)

[Dersk]

I don't think it has anything to do with the level of the mob:

Memory Blur
Slot Description
1: Memblur (10%)

I've explicitly stated I'm talking about the mesmerize spells. I suppose I'll have to reinstall EQLive and record a video (or screenshots if it doesn't work), because it seems people don't care to look at anything beyond lucy, which has several 'unknown' IDs.

I'd be more than willing to look at something from actual gameplay that contradicts the claims made in the links I've posted, though.

[Dersk]

Oh almost forgot, currently the best mez in the game has a 1% chance of membluring the mob:

Dazzle
Slot Description
1: Mesmerize (2/55)
2: Memblur (1%)

Given the information in the thread here (http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5300), that should tell you that you're obviously missing information in those two lines out of the dozens of tags associated with each spell.

[Dersk]

I don't think it has anything to do with the level of the mob:

Let's have a serious question here. What will you do to explain the situation when I get back on EQlive when I mez a critter, wait until mesmerize wears off, and it continues on its way as if I did nothing?

I'll check memory blur while I'm at it.

[guineapig]

I've explicitly stated I'm talking about the mesmerize spells. I suppose I'll have to reinstall EQLive and record a video (or screenshots if it doesn't work), because it seems people don't care to look at anything beyond lucy, which has several 'unknown' IDs.

I'd be more than willing to look at something from actual gameplay that contradicts the claims made in the links I've posted, though.

I'm getting my info from the servers:
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=190&source=Live

The test: Find a NPC that give an aggro message and is mezzable. Chain cast Mezz spell by alternating Bliss (40% mem blur) and Sleep (30% mem blur) then Tash (to get aggro). Count the number of time the mem blur component worked by counting the number of aggro message.

Bliss and sleep are level 63 and 64 spells. Of course the memblur effect chance is bigger.
The game in general is easier on Live now than it was ten years ago. And there are AAs for chanters to even further increase the memory wipe component of our spells. Not to mention aggro reducers for all our spells.

I had all these spells on live but I didn't see how they were valid in a P99 discussion so I didn't include them. P99 will never go past level 60.

[guineapig]

Let's have a serious question here. What will you do to explain the situation when I get back on EQlive when I mez a critter, wait until mesmerize wears off, and it continues on its way as if I did nothing?

I'll check memory blur while I'm at it.

I will respond with this P99 isn't EQLive and EQLive isn't EQ Classic.
Sorry, that's the best I can come up with. :(

[Malrubius]

Those Lucy percentages don't jive with what I saw in classic at all. I remember being aware that memblur could fail, but it succeeded very often (perhaps more often than not).

Dersk - sorry to have derailed the thread further. I know now that you are concerned with Mez's memblur component. I agree that the Lucy numbers look off there too, relative to what was in Classic, but I have no proof.

[Dersk]

edit: I apologize for the ads.

Mesmerize blurring a wolf and snake (http://www.wegame.com/watch/mez-memblur-1/). It's a level 5 enchanter to show the caster level isn't relevant.

Mesmerization, the AE mez, successfully blurring kobolds in the warrens. (http://www.wegame.com/watch/mez-memblur-2/) While illegible, the yellow 'worn off' messages are very clear. I do not have any AA's in enhanced forgetfulness.

Mesmerization used to blur the memory of Emperor Crush and Ambasador D'Vinn (http://www.wegame.com/watch/mez-memblur-3/). I used bind sight since I can get proximity agro even while invisible.

Mesmerize used on several orcs in crushbone. (http://www.wegame.com/watch/mez-memblur-4/)

All of this is done with a spell that has a 1% chance to blur.

Feign Death used to successfully drop agro from several skeletons in Kurn's. (http://www.wegame.com/watch/fd-memblur/) I reference this because it works with the same accuracy across the same level range.

I will respond with this P99 isn't EQLive and EQLive isn't EQ Classic.

You are, however, using EQLIVE values from lucy to argue this point.

I have provided first hand accounts, webarchived spell descriptions and posts, and have now given a video to clearly illustrate and prove the mechanic I am describing.

/bug

[Dersk]

Dersk - sorry to have derailed the thread further. I know now that you are concerned with Mez's memblur component. I agree that the Lucy numbers look off there too, relative to what was in Classic, but I have no proof.

I don't even know if the memory blur spells themselves are working, as I don't have access to them on p1999 yet. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it :D

[guineapig]

Memblur spells do work. I would say I have a ROUGHLY 50% success rate with Reoccuring Amnesia. With 4 25% chances that seems about right.

I stopped playing on live maybe around 2004 and the chances for a mez to memblur the target seemed to be very similar if not the same is it is here. I very often would get attacked after a warrior broke mez with a taunt and kick, very rarely if I had a Paly or SK using aggro spells.

Dersk, it sounds like you are being defensive in your responses.
Please understand that I am interested in this thread and trying to contribute information. I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just posting what I can to add to the discussion.

I know very well that trusting memory alone is not a very accurate method to research things and I also have no idea how spell mechanics have changed on Live over the years since I played there.

Is it possibly that the memory blur component checks on every tic of the mez? That would in theory add to the chance of a blur happening. Honestly I don't know.

[guineapig]

I would just like to add that it seems very odd that if the level 5 mez memblurs mobs that often then I don't even know why they bothered to make memblur spells.

I would also like to add that I agree, the memory blurs 1-50 seem to work somewhat more often than the percentages would indicate. I don't have an explanation for this. A charisma check might be involved and my charisma is faily high on P99 so I don't know if my experience with it is the best one to judge by. But they are definitelly not over 50% reliable.... ever. At least not before Kunark.

Let me know what you want me to test and I will be happy to do so.

[Dersk]

the chances for a mez to memblur the target seemed to be very similar if not the same is it is here

I haven't encountered a single memory blur from mesmerize yet on p1999, and used it well over a dozen times. While it may yet blur more often than 1% of the time on p1999, I have yet to encounter it.

Is it possibly that the memory blur component checks on every tic of the mez? That would in theory add to the chance of a blur happening. Honestly I don't know.

On enemies that are not KOS, they retain their original /consider as soon as mez lands on EQlive. They do that now, and did it years ago when I first tested it out to ensure I knew what was happening.

edit: I've seen enchanters with enhanced forgetfulness on therunes.net claim that they've seen a mob forget them after mez wears off when the mob has been tashed and/or slowed during the mez, indicating that there is a second chance for memblur to occur. However, that has only been mentioned by people that have also had that specific AA.

Dersk, it sounds like you are being defensive in your responses.

Flabbergasted is more like it. There are a multitude of ways to have a mob attack after mez wears off (proximity, assist, debuffing, pet ignoring mez), but I haven't seen anyone show mez fail to blur ( edit: ) before 35.

[Dersk]

I would just like to add that it seems very odd that if the level 5 mez memblurs mobs that often then I don't even know why they bothered to make memblur spells.

*To affect mobs over level 35
*A failed memory blur will not draw agro, but a resisted mez will
*To affect mobs that cannot be mezzed (though this would generally fall under the >35 bit)
*To affect mobs that may be mezzed but have been debuffed/snared/etc after the mez has landed, since at launch alternating mezes as a rule did not work

edit: And to take care of that [censored] mob that a [censored] bard [censored] mezzed because he [censored] thinks it's helping me by [censored] [censored] with his [censored] bard mez.

No, I haven't been killed by bard mez. Ever.

[Dersk]

For the sake of being complete, I recorded mezzes being overwritten by other mezzes (http://www.wegame.com/watch/mez-refresh/). Each mez blurred the goblin, and that effect can clearly be seen as the goblin gives his agro message upon each new mez. This not only demonstrates the reliability of the memory blur aspect, but also the fact that the effect does not require time or wearing off naturally to work.

The effects are the same across all four (classic) mez spells used: mesmerize, enthrall, entrance, and dazzle.

[nicemace]

i know for certain it was like this around the PoP era. i used to go balling through BoT and if invis broke i could just mez shit up and reinvis then keep ballin. it was the same during seb days too.

[guineapig]

Here's a couple posts from 2001-2002 that talk about what we are discussing:

RE: how mez works
Posted: Jul 29th 2001 4:26pm | IP: Logged | Reply to this
Shakaama

113 posts
Score: Decent
That is erroneous and I won't allow you to pass on bad information. The original poster was sort of correct. What mez realy does is completely reduce the agro radius to nul. It resets the agro list and wipes the current agro list. However the effect of mez lasts kind of like a dot, so that, like a dot, the hate list has only the caster of the mez on its list. Furthermore there is an additional component to raise enchanters on the hate list, even above other casters. When mez is broken then unless someone else has done something to put themselves ahead of the enchanter on the hate list, the mob will of course attack whoever is at the top of the hate list.

Any subsequent casting of the same lvl mez spell on a mob does exactly the same effects as described above. A further wipe will occur, so that if a warrior had taunted for 30 seconds and put himself at the top of the hate list the subsequent mez will wipe that agro.

Just as a side note, invisibility has the same effect as far as agro radius. It resets the faction for the mob who views you and reduces the agro to nul until such time as your invisibility breaks. The coders of course had to put a visual effect to this so they write out your polygons on everyone elses computers. This write out time has a definite time to be down, HENCE the casting time for invisibility.

Furthermore the same can be said for gaining levels versus mob levels. The more levels you gain, the smaller the agro radius of mobs. Unless it's a mob that has been coded to never lose agro. This is thrown out the window when you sit. For when you sit down, it effectively rewrites your agro level back to lvl 1.


RE: how mez works
Posted: Feb 6th 2002 3:26am | IP: Logged | Reply to this
MasterKaedo
1 post
Score: Decent
Hmm Im not sure exactly how mez works, entirely. But I do know that my enchanter has mezzed things, and after that mez wore off on its own, the targeted mob is mem wiped. So personally, I don't buy into that DoT idea.

I believe that mezzes have a *chance* to memblur the targeted npc. This chance is probably due to the code that was added to level 35+ mobs, which gave them a chance to resist memblur spells. Ask any monks about that nerf... before a Feigh Death would have *always* removed aggro - but now, mobs have to go to their spawn point before they have a 100% chance to forget.

In fact, a well respected enchanter that I know explained to me that the level 35+ memblur nerf effected enchanters' memblur spell as well. Prior to the nerf, memblur worked 100% of the time. Now, sometimes memblur takes a few casts before the mob truly forgets. This also explains why many monks must pop and drop a few times before their mobs forget about them.

Not saying either of these posts are completely correct but at least we can see some opinions from pre-PoP era.

[Dersk]

I came across a caster's realm comment that made me question the level mez's memblur became less reliable. I had originally stated it was somewhere from 30 to 35 , but could only find statements mentioning level 35 being the cutoff for reliable memory blur. However, I noticed a webarchived comment from July 6,2000 on caster'srealm for entrance:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010725175728/eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=15
Note: On monsters above Level 30 the memory blur is very unreliable.

I hadn't tested int he 30~35 range, so on EQLive I grabbed a CWG Model XA (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=3257) which is reported to have a level range of 32-34, CWG Model MA (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=3251) levels 30-32, and a young goblin (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=3216) 18-20.

I cast mesmerize twenty times each. Mesmerize failed to blur the XA 10 times out of 20, the MA 3 times out of 20, and the goblin 1 out of 20 (19 successful memory blurs).

I also tested refreshing mesmerize, and using the mechanical gnome's con to see if they were blurred, which has so far always indicated a successful blur on non-kos mobs. Only the first mesmerize in a series of twenty successfully blurred the mob.

It turns out my previous tests don't appear to have been large enough, and the 95% blur rate indicated on caster's realm may indeed be more accurate and I had just been lucky in my application of mesmerize for its memblur effect previously.

For a follow-up, I tried a kobold guardian (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=9994), level 42. 6 failed blurs out of 20.

For live to p1999 comparison: 20 casts on a fire beetle in qeynos on live by a 23 enchanter, all 20 applications successfully blurred the beetle. 20 casts of mesmerize on a fire beetle in qeynos on p1999 by a 12 enchanter, 0 out of 20 successful blurs.

I apologize for not considering the memblur to be on more of a sliding scale depending on the mob's level, rather than an on/off switch that lead me to misinterpret results on very low level mobs. That also shows my correlation to the effects of feign death by level are not as apt as I had thought.

[Werlop]

Bump. this needs another look. I have never seen any mez cause memblur in 18 months as an Enchanter, so I will comfortably claim that it is not in game.

I found a somwhat classic source of a developer sharing how Charisma affects Enchanter spells. He indicated that Charisma would raise the chances of memblur, so I hesitate to accept the percentages on Allakhazam. There was a thread somewhere (The Runes? I'll link when I find it) that explained how those numbers were arbitrarily made up.
The thread that this is from was written in '03. The quotes are taken from the Kunark-PoP era. The links themselves unfortunately no longer work.

http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=102&highlight=charming


here ya go... official statements from SOE staff




Charisma has impact on...

1. Lull Resists (helps determine if you aggro or not)
http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4882
Is the effect resisted?

If the effect is resisted, will the NPC get angry and tell its friends that it's time for a BardSnack(tm), or will it ignore what just happened?

Charisma is the sole determinant in the second check. It doesn't affect (resists).

2. Charm
http://eq.crgaming.com/archives.asp?Day ... ction=View
I checked with GZ this morning regardng the effect Charisma has in charming. The answer is that its effect is twofold.
Firstly it effects the chance at resisting the initial charm cast. Secondly, and more importantly, it makes it harder for the charmed NPC's save to successfully roll. This basically means it does effect duration.

3. Mez and Blur
http://eq.crgaming.com/archives.asp?Day ... ction=View
Spoke with GZ this morning regarding Charisma and its effect in relation to resists.

In summary Charisma effects the resists of Charms, Mesmerises and Blur-Type Spells across all classes.

Boston Fanfaire (August 2002 -- last year)
http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4451
Is Charisma actually taken into account on mesmerizations and charms?

Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It’s unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic.


GZ ON CHARISMA (SOFT) CAP
http://eq.crgaming.com/archives.asp?Day ... ction=View
GZ confirmed that the soft cap on Charisma is 200

For those unfamiliar with how a soft cap works, once a stat goes over 200 the actual real benefit diminishes. In practical terms this means an increase of a stat from 190 to 200 gives greater benefit than increasing it from 200 to 210.

[Pudge]

Those Lucy percentages don't jive with what I saw in classic at all. I remember being aware that memblur could fail, but it succeeded very often (perhaps more often than not).

Same. I remember when sullon came out, crushbone we would CONSTANTLY memblur/nuke mobs and steal exp from groups that were on the mob, with just one blur/nuke. And it would almost always work. The way i thought blurs worked back then, was that they erased a specific amount of hate/"damage count" (because not all hate is damage) for each person... but maybe it was just a flat 80% success rate, i don't know.

When trying to get rid of agro, if one cast didn't do it, then 2 probably was enough, although it seemed to be less reliable as you leveled / as time passed (maybe the mechanics changed somewhere... i remember in my higher levels it wasn't as reliable as low).

Also mez would make them forget you but only like 1/10. (again i remember it blurring more than that in early levels.. maybe due to differences in how charisma was factored in?)