(Yet Another) Necromancer Race Thread

[mr_jon3s]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So basically, I would recommend going Iksar if you're a Blue player with an endgame raiding focus, or if you are able to twink your Necro with a good amount of INT gear. I would recommend going Erudite if you're a Red player, if you are starting a new Necro from scratch with nothing, or if you are just trying to make a farming alt to level to the low 50s as quickly as possible. If you are an ultra neckbeard who will for sure have BiS or near-BiS on either Blue or Red, go Iksar.

Why would you start as an erudite necro from scratch with nothing?? Iksars have some of the easiest ways to make money at the start. Skeletons drop shields that sell for 1pp. Kurns has icy wand of soloist and iksar berserker club. WW has giants with stuff that drops and shrunken goblin earring. Loio has bracer of the hidden and the invis click ring. Swamp of no hope has the froglok that has a chance of droping high lvl gems.

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by mr_jon3s [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why would you start as an erudite necro from scratch with nothing?? Iksars have some of the easiest ways to make money at the start. Skeletons drop shields that sell for 1pp. Kurns has icy wand of soloist and iksar berserker club. WW has giants with stuff that drops and shrunken goblin earring. Loio has bracer of the hidden and the invis click ring. Swamp of no hope has the froglok that has a chance of droping high lvl gems.

The easiest way to make money is to level, and the Erudite levels faster and has an easier time doing so because 147 starting INT allows you more breathing room than 110 starting INT for the things that matter, like getting your snare or fear resisted. This is not theorycrafting, either. I've leveled both untwinked and the Erudite was easier.

As for those camps, none of them are realistic money makers for a new characters (i.e. you can't realistically camp Grachnist until your 40s, the Solist Wand/IBC are horrendous camps with bad payoffs, Bracer of Hidden is stupidly rare and you can't plow through the volume of Sarnaks necessary until 49 or so, and the Gazughi ring is another horrendous camp unless you get lucky). And on top of all that, if you really wanted to there's no reason you couldn't do those same camps as an Erudite, anyway.

[Crawdad]

Played up-to-PoP raiding Erudite Necro on Live, have a ...48? Iksar Necro here.

At this point, the game is nearly 16 years old, and people (especially here) want to min/max. For those people, Iksar is the way to go. Like others have said, there just aren't any items available on this server comparable to the natural regen--and there wont be.

But unless you honestly believe you're going to raid, or rush to 53/60 to farm plat, it really doesn't matter. People have made a good case for Erudite/Iksar/Gnome, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the ambiance/feel of being a Darkelf or Human Necro.

You already know what you want to play, so just play it!

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wrote that original post in this thread: http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=110930

I also did a more detailed breakdown in this thread, which was deleted for some reason (An Iksar supremacist conspiracy?): http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=173245

I was only able to find that url of the deleted thread by Google searching the following links, which I posted in that deleted thread and which demonstrate the enormous mana advantage that an Erudite enjoys over an equally geared Iksar (due to innate INT advantage, GEBs and Mantle of Souls).

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Iksarmancer

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Erudmancer

The Erudite has an extra 500 mana compared to the Iksar.

That being said, I still think that Iksar is the superior race in most situations and for most players on P1999, and is unquestionably the superior race if you're an endgame oriented player who will be spending most of your time at 60, where uber gear will start to erase the Erudite INT advantage. With Velious on the horizon this applies even more.

However, I think the Erudite Necro is a strong choice for a casual player or someone rolling a Necro primarily to level up for farming. Speaking as someone who has leveled both an Erudite Necro and an Iksar Necro from scratch (zero twinking), the low Iksar INT is really noticeable (especially at lower levels) and gives you very little cushion for things like spell resists and adds. For example, my naked Erudite Necro has nearly as much INT (147) as my HP geared Iksar Necro (155). It really takes a lot of INT and mana gear for an Iksar to begin erasing the Erudite INT advantage. Given the abundance of cheap gear on Blue at this point, however, this may be less of a problem.

The Erudite INT (mana) advantage is also huge in PvP given the short time frame of most fights, an obvious fact which is totally lost on most people who just parrot the "Iksar = best" argument without thinking. The Erudite has the extra mana for 2-3 extra casts of Deflux, for example, which gives him +600 healing and -600 damage to his enemy, a 1200 hitpoint differential that can be cast in about 15 seconds total. The Iksar regen advantage over 15 seconds is obviously meaningless in comparison. Alternatively, the mana could be used to cover an additional cast or two of a big DoT like Envenomed Bolt or Vexing Mordinia. High level Necro spells cost a lot of mana, and an Iksar running around in resist gear doesn't have a lot of wiggle room due to his low mana pool. And since PvP fights as a caster are too short for regen to become a big factor, the Erudite mana pool advantage is obviously a big deal. Velious gear will reduce this advantage somewhat, but not as greatly as it will on Blue, since resist gear will still be the priority in PvP over INT/mana. At the very high end, however, Iksars will come out ahead.

So basically, I would recommend going Iksar if you're a Blue player with an endgame raiding focus, or if you are able to twink your Necro with a good amount of INT gear. I would recommend going Erudite if you're a Red player, if you are starting a new Necro from scratch with nothing, or if you are just trying to make a farming alt to level to the low 50s as quickly as possible. If you are an ultra neckbeard who will for sure have BiS or near-BiS on either Blue or Red, go Iksar.

Okay, retyping this because the damn forums logged me out as I submitted:

My first reaction to those magelos was horror, lol. Then I realized that you were gearing those magelo toons for Red. That makes a lot more sense now. Everything I wrote is centered on blue focused PvE necromancers. I have absolutely no stake in PvP, and I know 0 about PvP (fixed!) necromancer, other than you can't fear players.

What I will comment on is the lower base int being a problem for undergeared players. I disagree. Having less mana can be tricky, as you are susceptible to chain resists, but we have the ultimate way around that: feign death. Flop it, and try again if all fails. But even then, with my new necromancer Daudsormr, I am sitting at 110 int, which is what a naked Iksar necromancer would have. Hunting in Oasis of Marr, I don't run into issues killing a relatively steady stream of mobs to be honest. I don't feel my mana being strained.

However, other people might. I do not disagree with that. My point is solely that this is subjective, and maybe weighted differently on the PvP server based on the leveling experience there. On blue? I don't have a problem running around with 110 int and no mana items. Additionally, it is worth noting that there are a good number of ways to make money quickly and efficiently at lower levels. Sisters camps drop bronze weapons, you have some decent drops in Kurns (as already pointed out), there are gargoyles... There are plenty of ways to make money in the game world without necessarily needing to throw levels at the game to make money, and therefore one should go Erudite. But then again, on blue, some really good items are cheap. Prices are likely higher on red, so being able to race to higher income spots is probably more needed to get geared, therefore increasing the value of going Non-Iksar for the leveling speed. But on blue, you can earn enough money to buy lower end high int and hp items (Stein, Fire rings) at really low levels.

So I wouldn't necessarily jump to saying that if you're a new player and you can't twink a toon, go non-iksar. Just like XP and faction, gearing is a temporary issue, especially on blue. By Velious, gear is so over laden with int, stamina, health, mana, that the difference in stats will be nothing. Even if you wont be in absolute top of the line raiding gear, just being in stuff out of Growth is pretty damn sick.

If you don't have an attachment to being a non-Iksar race, and if your toon isn't just a mule/farm toon type of deal, I don't agree that one should go non-Iksar for their first toon. Putting off long term gains for really short term benefits seems unwise to me when we're talking about a 16 year old elf simulator. Not like we're rushing to new content.

But then again, this is from a blue perspective. There's a lot more cheap gear going around, it is easier to camp things without interruption, and you don't have to worry about having a lot of burst mana saved up for the ganker right around the corner. If you're starting on red, the logic here behind erudite seems strong from the outside looking in. But if you're starting on blue, I'd really encourage even new players to not put off the long term benefits of being an Iksar just because of speedbumps like xp penalties, faction problems, and low base int. These things go away in time, but that extra 11 regen never stops being valuable, and it is not replaceable. Especially if they nerf the Lich line as they need to, then that regen is going to mean a hell of a lot more.

[Gaxx]

Personally I play a DE necro (currently lvl 58) just because I think Dark Elves are a cool race. I am starting to wish I had Iksar regen when soloing in places like charasis. But I'm of the opinion that necros are such a powerful class when played well that you'll be fine no matter what race you choose.

[Phifey]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know 0 about PvE necromancer

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[rgostic]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then I realized that you were gearing those magelo toons for Red.

This guy Vexenu is either trolling, or he's never heard of the Stone of Morid, because he'd have to be framing it up real hard to bring PvP into a comparison of necromancer races and fail to mention it, yet alone equip his iksar template with a sarnak ceremonial dagger.

[Arterian]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DE make the best necro because they are so awesome and look the best in a blighted robe, just say no to wolverine gloves and leather caps tho.

This.

[eqberserk]

My wife and I are planning to play together (pending IP allowance). I want to play an Iksar Necro and she wants to play a Human Druid. Considering the race/faction issues, should I consider going Human Necro, or is it easy enough to get around my concerns? I've never played old school EQ, so never had to worry about watching out for guards, etc.

[Messianic]

I remembered analyzing this sometime back, so it may have been me. Here's the post:

Iksar necros do not level faster than other necros.


Levels 8-19 - an extra 2 hp per tick, sitting = 20 hp extra per minute. Dark Pact = 2 mana for 4 hp every tick, or 0.5 mana for each hp, so 10 extra mana per minute. 10 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.

Levels 20-34 - An extra 3 hp per tick, sitting = 30 hp extra per minute. Allure of Death = 4 mana for 8 hp every tick, or 0.5 mana for each hp, so 15 extra mana per minute. 15 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.

Levels 34-48 - An extra 3 hp per tick, sitting = 30 hp extra, blah blah - Call of Bones = 8 mana for 16 hp, so 0.5 mana for each hp. 15 extra mana per minute. 15 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.

Level 49 - extra 3 hp per tick, 30 hp extra per minute - Lich has a .625 mana-hp ratio, so approximately 19 extra mana per minute.

Level 50 - extra 4 per tick sitting regen. 40 extra hp per minute. 25 extra mana per minute. 25 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.


Are you seeing my point?


Let's just jump to level 60:

Arch Lich = 35/53 mana/hp per tick, with 11 extra hp regen while sitting (7 for non-regen races, 18 for iksar). 110 hp per minute, so approximately 70 mana extra per minute, which isn't half bad - but definitely doesn't offset the iksar experience penalty (even ignoring all the lost time from 1-49), even if that same amount of mana was being given throughout your 50s - which it's not, it's a little lower.

Iksar are definitely worth it at level 60. They do not level faster than other necros. You can debate about the severity of the exp penalty, but it's clearly enough to make iksar level slower, all other things constant...

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...gen#post398181