The pampered experience group (deferential players and forward GMs)

[Khorza]

OP might have had a good point but it's completed wasted by the condescending tone he decided to take.

By the way, just because the old policy was "whenever there's a dispute the CSR gets to do whatever they want" doesn't mean it was a good policy and should be replicated on P99. Sometimes players lie and sometimes CSR agents are incredibly gullible. Sometimes the CSR has interacted with one or more of the parties in the past and that influences their decision in an unfair way. There's just way too many variables. Camps should have been defined 10 years ago.

[Mblake81]

Originally Posted by ChairmanMauzer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Brevity is the essence of wit...

locked in here with your neighbors snotty nosed kid.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Khorza [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP might have had a good point but it's completed wasted by the condescending tone he decided to take.

By the way, just because the old policy was "whenever there's a dispute the CSR gets to do whatever they want" doesn't mean it was a good policy and should be replicated on P99. Sometimes players lie and sometimes CSR agents are incredibly gullible. Sometimes the CSR has interacted with one or more of the parties in the past and that influences their decision in an unfair way. There's just way too many variables. Camps should have been defined 10 years ago.

Out of curiosity, how are they gullible? In my experience, you generally need proof of things in order for them to take action. So it's hard to be gullible if you're not taking someone's word for things and instead requiring actual evidence.

[Dolalin]

Originally Posted by ELance [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In classic, we know that GMs generally only responded to repeated kill stealing and deliberate training, not minor disputes over camps

You can stop right there. You're wrong.

I was a guide on Mith Marr in 2000/2001, and I have fond memories of refereeing spawns at the orc and derv camps in WC between two groups. If it was contested, we made them share it. If they tried to KS the mobs from the other group, I would /kill the mob and nobody would get it. Usually this would go on for about half an hour and one group would break up.

You're absolutely wrong that guides did not referee spawns. It was one of the major things guides were there for.

[ELance]

Originally Posted by bum3 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My personal experience was when I was soloing frenzy room pre-kunark as a necro.. i could clear the room and pull the outside room. A group setup outside room and i took a mob. Was warned by a guide that my camp was only inside the frenzy room and If I took another one of their mobs I would lose my camp too.

And you exchanged no words with the others? You only took one mob and this happened? Was it a guide or a GM? I am not sure the guides were paid, but the GMs were paid professionals. But yes as a general rule the more rules there are, the worse it becomes. I am not sure of the difference between guides and GMs, but your post would be good evidence that even given a clear set of guidelines such enforcers will still sometimes behave and interpret rules erratically. Often it is just a case of illiteracy or a failure to read the guidelines in the first place. The fewer rules there are, the better. That is why I advocate GM intervention only when repeated killstealing or intentional trains are happening. I am not even opposed to these within reason, and neither were a number on alt.games.everquest in 1999; but in this thread I have advocated a more moderate position. Player conflict was a natural part of early MMORPGs, even ones without PvP. There are plenty of games where you can play apart from others.

In the end, whether it be a train, killstealing or camp dispute, the worst that can happen is you lose experience points. That is a part of the game. When a GM shows up it is not a game. The mechanics have failed to suffice. But I don't think they have. I do not share a dislike of conflict with others so much that I would call a time out and invite police to mediate it. And what is more, when this is done, it only increases conflict. The people that are petioning are prone to conflict, at least behind their computers. They have expectations out of keeping with their strength. The more power they think they have, the more they will display--squealing and whining.

In general the rule in life is that people don't read rules. GMs don't read rules, player don't read rules. So rules are not the best choice. Thankfully Everquest has systems. Sony went a step further, and would yet in Everquest II--locked and leashed encounters and instances. But Project '99 has no such ambitions.

It will be interesting to study the responses of those that disagree with me in this thread. What is the general nature of their writing? Do they write thorough, detailed posts, or one line replies that show lack of comprehension?

And let's not forget the old saying, which I think, paraphrased, is, "People who deal in poison take half their own dose." It is unpleasant for all to go against others, especially if they are fewer persons against more persons. Add to this the natural function of reputation in the game, which might blossom more if it could breathe, and even more attempts to govern players with GMs can seem heavy handed. This is a world, and we are all people, and I do not think it needs great intervention from others. We can always press the power button or go elsewhere if we don't like it. There was a story in the news a while back about a man that called police to his home with regard to an intruder. The police came, saw him in the living room, thought he was the intruder and after some misunderstanding shot him dead. Those who serve justice, do not always deliver it.

[ELance]

Originally Posted by Baler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pras P99 & Pras Staff
They volunteer to do hard work.

And remember it's 2019 not 1999.
There are a new set of problems that did not exist during live clasic. Cut people some slack.

Everyone should read the Play Nice Policy & Server Rules
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=325349

Behave toward others as one would have others behave toward oneself.

Oh? And do you deign to tell me what those problems are that exist now?

[Khorza]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Out of curiosity, how are they gullible? In my experience, you generally need proof of things in order for them to take action. So it's hard to be gullible if you're not taking someone's word for things and instead requiring actual evidence.

I don't know, I've never really seen a GM ask for proof. It's usually one party gives their side of the story, the other party gives their side, and then a GM makes an arbitrary decision which is generally poor and not in the spirit of the game. But that's just my personal experience.

#DefineCamps2020

Originally Posted by ELance [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It will be interesting to study the responses of those that disagree with me in this thread. What is the general nature of their writing? Do they write thorough, detailed posts, or one line replies that show lack of comprehension?

Oh please. You know as well I do that there's no correlation between the length of a comment and its validity.

There's also value in brevity. I'm sure many people have skipped your comments due to their length (and the off-putting, holier-than-thou language).

[bum3]

Originally Posted by ELance [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you exchanged no words with the others? You only took one mob and this happened? Was it a guide or a GM? I am not sure the guides were paid, but the GMs were paid professionals.

Nah i'm sure i pulled some before I realized they were there. I would just pop around corner and pull with disease cloud. They were in the hallway T behind that room. No words were spoken. Guides were volunteers. Unpaid. At least I was when I did it for a short 3 month stint. It could have been avoided if they let me know they were there. After guide warned me, I invited them to my group with the understanding I got first fbss that dropped. As a guide, when i oversaw camp disputes If they were solo/duo or partial I asked them to group together and share. If 1 group had been there a long time they kept it. But usually their kill radius got smaller. IE your group gets the room camp.. other group can have next room or hallway spawns. Then I sat invis and watched for a bit while answering question petitions. But I was one of the nicer guides, IMHO.

[solidious77]

TL only read half -- your talking about maaaaasive population differences. Not even comparable whatsoever in terms of treatment. Moreover, who gives a shit.

Does therycrafting all this really achieve anything? Seems like you spent a fuck load of time choosing percice words for no actual benfit =(

P99 staff/volunteers are not responsible for everything negative.. In fact, they are really not comended at all for all of this great work lol. A couple appreciative posts near launch; and then just constant bitching ever since.

Get a real life, so you have real shit to worry about; is the answer to most of these atrocious complaints.

[ELance]

Originally Posted by WaffleztheAndal [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have heard too many stories of people getting suspensions for even trying to assist another player in trouble with a mob and the player perceiving it as an attempted ks. Now I assume many of these petition stories gone wrong are misconstrued or outright lies, but regardless I generally bend, back down or bow out of any kind of in-game dispute. The staff here are fantastic, and the fact they do all they do for free is just incredible. That said, all it takes is one bad day or one misunderstanding to lose days, weeks or more of progress. Maybe that makes me a wuss but it is what it is. Love the server and I’ll gladly accept these circumstances.

How can judges be fantastic among stories of unjustice?

I hope this to be a practical thread, and hope it will stir thought in the right direction. As things stand now, people are afraid, I have seen, to pull mobs through other groups and even to pass by other groups for further camps-- especially if that camp is not commonly taken. To make matters worse, the petitioners, emboldened by past successes (and I think any public show by a GM is a success for them, most people don't want to deal with that), will immediately harass people through tells, say or OOC. No different from classic, except people are much more afraid since it's private server. To my mind, the easiest way to recreate Everquest is through fewer rather than more rules. People openly stole kills and intentionally trained in classic, and never feared more than a warning--from the GMs. On the other hand, the beauty of classic Everquest, was that we learned lessons from our fellow players and their treatment of us after we did these things. If you trained people at high levels you were done for, and not by the GMs; you had better hope you were the brother of a guild leader--or had some very loyal friends. You were ostracized. The game became unplayable and you rerolled or left. I know cause I did eye for an eye then; it wasn't the GMs that were a problem (I never saw one of those), it was the other players.

Getting back to the players, yes, by hook or by crook it seems one group in a popular zone will have their one or two dozen mobs to pull back to back, unless a concerted group interferes and is willing to go to trial. Pick up groups will sink into their shells and go. Overcrowding? I haven't even seen elementary attempts at sharing. I saw someone in Befallen the other day say "basement is camped guy". What does that mean? The whole third floor? Isn't that big? It's worth considering when people see a GM pop up on a private server they are afraid. Most people don't want to be banned. A little of that goes a long way, and I have seen no hesitation to act from GMs. I actually saw one appear in the middle of a group the other day, less than 2 minutes after a petition for a petty camp dispute. Certainly stories like the above do not help things, I do not blame someone for pusillanimity.