My p99 vs other mmorpg analogy

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by Bazia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EQ is extremely linear and offers little to do other than kill monsters

My condolences on your lack of imagination.

And to add some more insult, this is why we get the games we do. The industry knows, most gamers wouldn't know a sandbox if it were placed in the middle of their living rooms. They would not know what to do if a game did not give them maps, clearly marked zone progressions, fixed quest sequences, and locked-in char development tracks.

Or, as you put it, a game that is "extremely linear and offers little to do other than kill monsters."

Everyone bitches about how mmo's have turned into basically 3d sidescrollers, but how many approach gaming in a way that would move things in a different direction? The answer is none. None players.

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[Clark]

Originally Posted by 86753o9 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What you get with classic EQ
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What you get with other brands
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[Mentathiel]

I believe the issue is what we designers call 'conveyor-belt gameplay' or that tendency for games to give you quest A which leads to quest B which leads to quest C and you effectively have a choice maybe once every ten levels regarding the next conveyor-belt to jump on.

Modern players (the mass market) like to know what they are doing next. Give them a choice between A and B, two dialogue options in a conversation they cannot easily avoid having, and they feel comfortable / confident. Give them a sandbox and they will run to a wiki to find out what to do next, to see what someone else thinks they should do next.

The epitome of this trend is the Let's Play video, where you watch someone else play the game so you don't have to.

Publisher wisdom says that when 90% of your market want to be led by the hand, the other 10% (which include the P1999 players) are the anomaly to be ignored. Experienced designers just point to Star Wars Galaxies, which died when it tried catering to the mass market...

[Nuggie]

Originally Posted by Duckwalk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Modern MMO: EQ (Ultima) :: going to a Theme Park : playing in neighborhood

Walking The Strip in Vegas : walking The Oregon Trail

The Strip is fun for about an hour. The Oregon Trail keeps trying to kill you for about a year.

[Duckwalk]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

watching TV : playing in a neighborhood

theme parks are awesome

My point was that WoW and other modern MMO are based around moving from attraction to attraction. EQ was much more a world you explored and created your own adventures in (a la kids playing in neighborhood).

Can't tell you how much time I've spent exploring random nooks and corners of EQ that literally serve not purpose or exping for hours on end in some random room in the bottom of a dungeon or back of a zone.

[Portasaurus]

I know of a handful of almost totally undiscovered secrets on this server, and nobody knows what else might still be hidden out there waiting to be discovered. My play time these days when I'm not running my shop consists of about 95% aimless wandering and 5% corpse runs.

The fact that p99 is a custom server of sorts (still some non-classic stuff that gets discovered/patched every once in a while) opens up these possibilities even more. I still have an Arctic Scallop from when it was in the forage table somewhere early-on in p99's history. I have been clutching onto that thing like it's my eq security blanket.

Typically, only players who take the time to deeply explore the world on their own come across these things. As Duckwalk perfectly put it.. you need to explore these "random nooks and corners of EQ." Sure, usually it's just for fun/lore/imagination, but every once in a while you come across a vendor with something really cool or rare, or you see an NPC with an interesting and seemingly unfinished series of dialogue.

For example: the "Ice Cream is Good" books, and the "Generic Coffee Beans"

I wanna know what the hell those do! It's as if the EQ developers put these items into the game to tempt us, but I really don't think there is any way to actually MAKE coffee or ice cream in classic EQ. That makes me sad, but also at the same time it inspires me with hope that some day I might discover some undocumented "long lost recipe" or something...

...And don't get me started on "Ogre Marinade"

Gotta keep that dream alive!

[stormlord]

(deleted post)

Look, if you like something, play it. If you don't, don't. That's what it boils down to. If someoen thinks EQ has a lot of freedom then all the power to them. Enjoy it! If they don't agree, their opinion is just as good. It's not like any lives are on the line here. It's a game. If someoen likes pickled mustard ice cream, I don't care.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Mentathiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I believe the issue is what we designers call 'conveyor-belt gameplay' or that tendency for games to give you quest A which leads to quest B which leads to quest C and you effectively have a choice maybe once every ten levels regarding the next conveyor-belt to jump on.

Modern players (the mass market) like to know what they are doing next. Give them a choice between A and B, two dialogue options in a conversation they cannot easily avoid having, and they feel comfortable / confident. Give them a sandbox and they will run to a wiki to find out what to do next, to see what someone else thinks they should do next.

The epitome of this trend is the Let's Play video, where you watch someone else play the game so you don't have to.

Publisher wisdom says that when 90% of your market want to be led by the hand, the other 10% (which include the P1999 players) are the anomaly to be ignored. Experienced designers just point to Star Wars Galaxies, which died when it tried catering to the mass market...

You know even non-linear games have to lead hte player by hte hand somewhat. Even the EQ designers had to say "Hey guys, we probably shouldn't have too many high level mobs roaming the Qeynos Hills." They also had to decline things like "Gee, you think maybe we should put more cinvis mobs in Blackburrow and add a few more invisible floors to the top, just like that one at the tree? Wuldn't it be fun to see some of those noobs falling into into the commander room??!!! Hhahahahaha!!!!" Or how about "Guys, I think we should not have any creatures outside hte Qeynos gates because it doesn't make sense to me. I don't think Kane Bayle mucked things up enough. The guards should've cleared it out. Only thing spawning should be grass. If the new players wnat somethign to kill they'll just have to go on over to the hills."

The list of things the EQ designers had to consider goes on and on. It's not like they wanted to throw the player into the world without any hand holds. Ya, it appears like that in hindsight because of the changes since then, but in 1999, what was thought players could cope with was a good bit more loose.

Every game, non-linear or not, has to have an amount of the invisible hand.

EDIT: Your comment about SWG confuses me. SWG was really an offshoot of UO, since Raph was a big part of both and WoW hadn't happened yet. SWG was far from casual. It was released in 2003, just 2 years before WoW exploded onto the market. SWG was spending most of its time catching up, but it was too late.

So in my mind SWG died because it wasn't casual enough early on. It had all the inertia brought on by cumulative expectations. The New Game enhancements weren't near enough, but already much too far. SWG just had too much in its bag and watched as WoW raced past and disappeared into the horizon.

[applesauce25r624]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So in my mind SWG died because it wasn't casual enough early on. It had all the inertia brought on by cumulative expectations. The New Game enhancements weren't near enough, but already much too far. SWG just had too much in its bag and watched as WoW raced past and disappeared into the horizon.

i remember it being a pain in the ass to become a jedi on SWG. something like becoming "force sensitive" randomly while maxxing out a skill. my friend maxxed out all skills (tons of real played time + macroing) on one toon and it never became a jedi. that caused him to quit and caused me to not want to play it

this became one of those games where first impressions set the tone for the rest of the game's life

[stormlord]

Hey, this is classic EQ for you:
http://www.keenandgraev.com/2013/06/...comment-344868

It's a link to a specific comment so no need to scroll.