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The Master Stamina Bug Report (2017)
Hello fellow neckbeards. I'm here to call upon p99 devs to nerf the shit out of melee/everything, and I am going to do it with all the thoroughness of a min/maxing top tier raid poopsocker. Buckle up, buttercups.
buttercups.jpg You, probably. Quote:
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<?php require(classicStamina.php); ?> First, A Brief History Of Stamina On P99 When P99 first came online in 2009, there was a rudimentary stamina loss/regen system in place. It was flawed and terrible and they disabled it so people could actually kill things and get places in a timely manner. There have been a lot of threads about it before and since, and considering how scattered everything is, I have elected to create this master thread to help devs really figure out how to fix this. Dear p99 devs: FIX IT. That said, here is a list of a bunch of the p99 threads I found that are relevant and not at all someone whining that runspeed is too slow for whatever reason (because no one cares about those people). https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248 https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=30539 https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=113886 https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=176276 https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=190182 https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89 https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=153226 https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=212899 The History Of Stamina On Live Stamina used to be a big deal but then one day in 2003 SOE replaced it with Endurance and the game hasn't been the same since. We cannot use any information other than jumping from live, but any info from about 2002 and back is relevant. Why Is This Important? It's classic. If it's classic, it should be in P99. To expand: stamina will affect melee tactics, it will affect aspiring Olympic swimmers doing tiny tiny AFK laps in ponds (you know who you are), and it will affect who you want in the group because those silly stamina regen spells suddenly become a lot more important. Oh, and God forbid you battle rez someone and expect them to continue DPSing at the same rate as before without someone zinging the poor soul. It's a huge part of classic EQ that is currently missing from our nostalgia trips and I demand that it be fixed. Demand, I tell you! The Mechanics Stamina has several parts to it. Here's a post for monks describing part of what it does from 2002, before STA was replaced with END: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ksar-Monk-1-55 Quote:
Base Stamina And Penalties An old thread from Monkly Business has one post that recommends having your stamina above 100 as a monk. nilbog suggests in this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=23162) that this avoids a minor attack/delay penalty. Another comment here (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99512140128892) suggests that the moment it visibly depletes, you start missing a lot more, hitting for less, and you have fewer crits. Now this comment here (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/c...3318656332#2): Quote:
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This post from p99 in 2011 quotes an EQMac post (fortunately – the eqmac forums were baleeted by the gods of EQ development, which is a real shame): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...2&postcount=17 Stamina Regen Stamina regen should be pretty high (much faster than either mana or hp), but not enough that it can't go down at all. Sitting will help it regen even faster! Certain buffs can regen stamina. http://fernworks.net/~dyeomans/DownL...ll.asp%3FId=86 (Read the comments for a laugh!) http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm Quote:
http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm Quote:
Rezzes, of course, but also Bind Sight! http://xornn.tripod.com/Spells/spell.htm Quote:
Weapon Swings Each swing will deplete stamina. How much stamina per swing depends on weapon weight and encumbrance. Regardless of weapon weight, consecutive fights will really hit you hard in the stamina bar. Here's a comment on a monk guide about camping the sarnak earring of station: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post92837 Quote:
Weapon Weight Wurmslayer is famous for this, being a 15 stone weapon, but it may also happen with other weapons. Let's say that with 100 stamina, a 15 stone weapon like Wurmslayer will leave you with < 20% stamina after a single fight, which may lead to an attack/speed penalty (if you have under 100 sta). This post has a comment on weapon weight: http://www.monkly-business.net/forum...ll=1#post92187 Quote:
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Dual Wielding Stamina takes into account both weapons. See this comment: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99176684796742 Combine the weight of both weapons and I think that should be the correct amount for the stamina loss formula. Double Attack According to this comment: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...01525131745125 Quote:
Encumbrance This ought to affect stamina loss the way it affects agility, at least for running. Moving while encumbered should cause markedly more depletion. Related, full stamina loss will result in lower dex and agi (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...99712260018085), if you have <100 STA Encumbrance And Weapon Swings I am not sure if this is calculated in with weapon swings or if it's only with movement. Melee Abilities Slam/Bash/fancy monk kicks - ? I find no mention of this anywhere but I think it can be lumped in with regular hits. Running Running for long periods has been known to deplete stamina, but it takes a LOT of running and I have found no real mention of it anywhere except in passing. Swimming Swimming should deplete stamina much faster than running, enough that classes with invigor or extinguish fatigue are a must when venturing into Kedge Keep. You can regain stamina by allowing yourself to sink to the bottom of the water and sitting. How do I know you need to sit? Here's a post from a monk about soloing bloodgills in LOIO, and at one point they mention a safe spot to sit to regen stamina: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/monk...8-51-t787.html Here's a good comment regarding how fast stamina might deplete when crossing an ocean: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/z...96956897818024 Quote:
Random Other Things You will randomly get 'seasick' while on the boat and drop to 40% stamina: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/z...01263138442244 Oh hey, here's a mention of a second boat...: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/z...00230966917545 Okay, that has nothing to do with stamina. Sorry. Relevant info should be posted in this thread. Let it become...THE MASTER THREAD. For this year. Maybe next year. But if it goes into 2019 with no resolution I will be very upset. :<
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Last edited by Sorn; 10-24-2017 at 04:20 AM..
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A most comprehensive ClassicQuest, probably the most impressive I've seen. My hat is off to you! Very interesting read.
I want to be sure I understand something though from early on in your post... here is your quote: Quote:
I can't imagine many melee would be under 100 STA even as a non-twink, so even if implemented I don't think this would be as game changing as you envisioned? Seems like it would only prevent you from jumping, or maybe running / swimming away if you choose to run from a fight that isn't going your way. I couldn't quite tell from post if depleted stamina will make you run slower or not, I didn't see that... would that take effect? This could be slightly game changing in a group dynamic if you need to keep the puller's stamina up so they can keep grabbing pulls without getting beat on. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the mechanic, please help clarify. I think it was cool some of your other findings like Bind Sight depletes stamina... could indeed have an effect for someone bind sight tracking / screen-sharing AFK.
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | |||
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Client issue I believe.
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A+ Classic Quest. Daldaen stamp of approval.
P99 really needs to switch over to the EQMac client. You can get so classic with that client. Limits you to a single hotkey bar, no Mana in inventory, no scroll wheel, no combat ability window. Stamina actually has client support. Nilbog, it is time. Lead P99 to the promised land of a most classic client!
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@Caiu - p99 devs have much more control over the client and know a lot more than they did back in 2009, so I believe this can be done.
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I think the 100+ STA is for melee only, for fighting. You still lose STA, and it seems +STA gear was actually quite tough to get so there was a real concern in classic, especially for the smaller races who don't start out with as much stamina as ogres or trolls. When I find old classic stats for people's toons, base STA is very very very often under 100 if they're not ogres or trolls. This is actually VERY important for untwinked lower levels (not max raid-geared nerds), even on p99. As for whether or not there is still a penalty after getting over 100 STA, I am actually not sure. It's one of those grey areas. I'm inclined to think there WAS some sort of penalty (besides not being able to jump). Some of these comments mention losing AGI and DEX with no mention of base stamina, so I actually think the game would murder your AGI stat to make you run slower once you become fatigued...you just escape a penalty on your weapon delay if you're over 100. This is supported somewhat by this comment: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/i...98896207920223 Quote:
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Here is what I think: If you have under 100 STA, you get slowed automatically, as well as lose AGI and DEX. Now AGI determines run speed, so I think if you have 100+ STA, you will no longer be slowed but you WILL get hit in AGI so you run slower, and you will get hit more in battle because damage mitigation just got penalized (which would make sense - if you're tired, you don't dodge as often or as well IRL). The reason there's some confusion about it is because people weren't necessarily checking their inventory windows with the stats while fighting, so they noticed whether or not they have a weapon delay but not necessarily when they lost certain stats. I think perhaps the higher your STA the lesser the penalty on stats, or simply the longer you went without running out of stamina. It's unclear but the answer will likely be found in ogre warriors vs smaller race warriors debates. Now, also for classic, it was a concern for pullers. You definitely ended up running slower and they also jumped a lot to keep ahead of mobs. NOW. Regarding swimming and stamina. I just found this: https://www.giantbomb.com/everquest-...ark/3030-7725/ Quote:
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This would be amazing and is easily the biggest thing I was disappointed to find out when starting p99. Not classic stamina! I often joke about how weapons aren't viable because they are too heavy, while explaining the benefits of a light weapon.
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Take this link for what it's worth:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-2620.html Quote:
Tried searching for some other info, but it was covered from your links essentially.
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | |||
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Rygar, that post is from 2003 and therefore suspect! Also, I can tell you from being a cleric on live that we don't know jack about the nuances of stamina, especially since clerics and druids both have invigor.
I am doing some video watching now. Here's one where you can actually see the player's stamina depleting with each hit by a visible amount (when he's not running around getting cool camera shots): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNbfLOp1mgM (The video is dated from 2007 but the poster mentions they're old raid videos he found on an old computer. I believe these are all from Luclin.) You can also see it regens quite fast, though whether that's from buffs or zings I can't really tell. On a raid you can bet that's the first thing they'd buff to high heaven. Same for his other videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_zqEEHnVmA (Dain, as a monk - really hard to see) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpaqYUqel1A (Vindi - you can see it pretty well) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJ6S-fQEUI (Telkorenar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeCpvEpoyn8 (Lendiniaria the Keeper) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULXGorglosA (Trakanon - toon did a lot of running around, not sure he fought much)
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I had posted some links in Server Chat thread about Classic EQ videos. This one shows first person perspective from what appears to be a ranger in Sleeper's Tomb. Grainy video, but maybe you can tell better than me... but I didn't see the yellow bar deplete at all, there were some periods he was doing extended melee damage (you could see his damage and first person swings). He even swaps to inventory at some point where you could maybe determine what his stats are (may have to hit the enhance button a few times...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA7e...ature=youtu.be
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Wedar - Level 60 Grandmaster <Azure Guard>
Check out my Zone Guide to The Hole The Hole wiki now fully updated and accurate: Hole Wiki Page | ||
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I found this 'ding 60!' screenshot after some googling! You can see it was a tough battle... ding60.jpg
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