Why is training allowed on p99 in veeshan's peak? (poll asking your opinion)

[Tasslehofp99]

Ok so its been previously established that training be allowed in veeshan's peak, but why? On live training was never allowed, even in."non csr" zones like veeshans peak.


"Non csr" did not mean training was allowed. In its current state veeshans peak is broken and.favors whichever guild has the most trainers available to them, or whichever.guild has the largest numbers. This is contradictory to what eq raiding should be at this point as dragons are very trivial with anything over 25 players seeing as they are all 32k hps.


So why is training allowed in VP? was there some reason this was put into place in the past? Also, if its allowed in VP then it should be allowed in planes of hate/fear/sky as those were put in the same non-csr category as VP. Here is a link to the eq rule book: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97723


So do you think this rule needs to be changed to more closely resemble the classic rule set"

Should training really be allowed in VP?

And if so then by whatever logic you base that opinion off of, shouldn't training be allowed in hatr and fear as well?


Looking to keep this discussion friendly and constructive, go to RNF and make a thread if you want to troll.

Thanks.

[Tasslehofp99]

Sry for typos, posted from cell phone and trying to edit is a bitch.

[Motec]

I vote no, because I am all for sharing, PNP and all that jazz.

[Nirgon]

It is allowed in Sleepers and VP

[Tasslehofp99]

My opinion is if you somehow interpret "no csr" to mean anything goes, then you have to apply the same ruleset to other zones which were "no csr" on live.

Either way training was NEVER allowed on live, even in VP amd other no csr zones.

[Tasslehofp99]

It is allowed in Sleepers and VP



Wut? Everything I've read indicates otherwise. Where is your proof?

[Tasslehofp99]

I personally think that racing to a vp mob while avoiding training your competition and coming out on top in a fair mobilization/fte contest is a way bigger indicator of skill than who has 20 training classes to dedicate to keeping your raid wiped being the automatic winner.

[Tasslehofp99]

Bump cmon people this has gone on long enough.

Outlaw training as it was on live or follow through with the perversion of the rules followed on live and allow training in ALL non-csr zones listed in the everquest rule book. This includes hate/fear/sky.


I just think there has to be some kind of consistency here, is training allowed in vp because non csr allows for it? if so..then why this same thought process not taken into consideration concerning other classically non-csr zones?

[radditsu]

more people would play if rules were consistent. Means more donations. which means more server hardware. which means better server. It is only beneficial. If you want to be jerks, roll red.

[Tasslehofp99]

Nothing is going to happen.

They don't give a shit.

HUNDREDS were caught cheating with the antihack DLL, and what happened? Nothing.

All of TMO were caught exploiting in VP, and what happened? Nothing.

Nihilum exploited countless raid mobs for loot, and what happened? Nothing.

The staff are incompetent faggots excluding Rogean and Nilbog. Everyone else is either a dev and can't control it, or a worthless scumbag just protecting who's on top on both servers.

No offense bud I appreciate your imput but this is the exact kind of posts I'm trying to avoid. There is real evidence as far as I'm concerned that the current rule set in VP is a perversion of the.classic rules. We should really try to call for consistency regarding rules rather than bash the staff for the current rules which are far from what went on during live.

[Tasslehofp99]

To clarify, the poll options are kind of confusing.
Yes means you think the VP rules are wrong and need to be fixed.
No means you agree with the current rules in place for VP and agree
that training should be allowed.

[zanderklocke]

Voted no because I don't trust people who have the ability to wake the sleeper based on their zerg force.

[Laugher]

So to quote the rulebook (although the word train isn't directly used):

8.2 Disruption

8.2.1 Disruption is defined as any activity that is disruptive to the game play of others, though
not necessarily with the intent to do so. Disruption has been sub-categorized into major and
minor types.

8.2.1.1 Examples of Minor Disruption:

Non-Fantasy Names – Names that are not appropriate for the fantasy genre of EverQuest
Excessive Spam – Continued overuse of /ooc, /shout, or /auction over time such that many
players complain
Offensive Names – Names that are profanity in some form, including homonyms and anagrams
Kill Stealing – The killing of a mob for any reason that is already aggravated onto another player.

8.2.1.2 Examples of Major Disruption:

Foul Language – excessive use of foul language in an inappropriate context, including swear
words, real–world racial slurs, and other language that is not consistent with the fantasy
environment and designed to hurt.
Harassment – targeting another player, or group of players, to harm or inconvenience them
Zone/Area Disruption – monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area rather than stealing from
a specific player or group of players, deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other
players can’t get past, refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after
having been instructed to do so by a CS Representative

Is/would training be considered harassment of some kind? That seems like a vague entry but one that training might fall under

[Laugher]

I also voted no, after learning from my other post what VPs like here it would seem that zoning into VP in general implies pretty bad odds that you'll get out alive whether by the hands of other players or mobs

[Tasslehofp99]

Voted no because I don't trust people who have the ability to wake the sleeper based on their zerg force.

Obviously any rule changes would be accompanied by new stipulations regarding each specific situation.

Regarding the sleeper though, I think this situation warrants another discussion.
One which has to do with the community of p99 and player enforced play nice policies.
If one guild is going to wake the sleeper then I hate to say it but that is classic. Training was never allowed though and gm sanctioned training in any zone should be done away with. If not then training should be allowed in all zones labeled non csr according to the rulebook, which includes sky/hate/fear as well.

Just looking for either a consistent interpretation of the rules, or a classic interpretation of the rules. If non csr means training then you cant pick and choose which zones were non csr...that info is immortalized in the rulebooks of everquest and therefore leaves very little room for interpretation.

[Rogean]

You seem to think that our "No CSR" rule is related to SOE's "No Guide" Rule (Maybe also called "No CSR"). The live version was a list of zones that guides could not enter due to the possibility that they may unintentionally interfere with the players.

This is not the same. Our "No CSR" Rule was not put in place to mimick live's, it is a separate rule in place for separate reasons. Therefor, your comparison to any relative eqlive policy is invalid.

Disclaimer: This post was made to correct the misconception that the rule was based on an eqlive policy, which is not. I am not posting to say that we would or wouldn't consider removing our "No CSR" policy, which may or may not be up for reconsideration.

[Alarti0001]

Either way training was NEVER allowed on live, even in VP amd other no csr zones.

Not true.

[Tasslehofp99]

I also voted no, after learning from my other post what VPs like here it would seem that zoning into VP in general implies pretty bad odds that you'll get out alive whether by the hands of other players or mobs

Yes, VP is a dangerous zone and non csr just meant if you died the gms on live would bot offer you assistance with corpse retrieval. However, many people can zone into VP and survive easily and indeffinetly without interference/griefing/trainimg from another player.

Allowing training in one non csr zone but not in others just seems very wishy washy to me. Would just like to see more consistent rules or rules which were along the lines of those we experienced on live.

[Tasslehofp99]

Not true.

Prove it.


Hahaha finally got to use that line when it was relevant.

[Rogean]

Allowing training in one non csr zone but not in others just seems very wishy washy to me. Would just like to see more consistent rules or rules which were along the lines of those we experienced on live.

The only zone in the game that is non-csr is veehan's atm, so uhh.. not sure where you're getting your information from.

[Tasslehofp99]

You seem to think that our "No CSR" rule is related to SOE's "No Guide" Rule (Maybe also called "No CSR"). The live version was a list of zones that guides could not enter due to the possibility that they may unintentionally interfere with the players.

This is not the same. Our "No CSR" Rule was not put in place to mimick live's, it is a separate rule in place for separate reasons. Therefor, your comparison to any relative eqlive policy is invalid.

Disclaimer: This post was made to correct the misconception that the rule was based on an eqlive policy, which is not. I am not posting to say that we would or wouldn't consider removing our "No CSR" policy, which may or may not be up for reconsideration.


I see, so the non-csr rule inplemented here, what was the justification behind it?
Is there some kind of proof out there somewhere that training was ever allowed on live Eq?


As far as I've read(not saying I'm some kind of research whiz) training was always punishable by GMs on live as it was considered interference/disruptive regardless of the zone. In its current form VP is inpossible to zone into without 50 player forces (if 2 guilds are in zone) and the guild with the bigger train team wins. I don't believe that success in everquest was ever measured by such standards.

[Heebo]

Prove it.


Hahaha finally got to use that line when it was relevant.

No offense bud I appreciate your imput but this is the exact kind of posts I'm trying to avoid.

But seriously - that's the second time you've used the word imput like it's a real word. Please stop.

[Tasslehofp99]

The only zone in the game that is non-csr is veehan's atm, so uhh.. not sure where you're getting your information from.

Fear/sky/hate were listed as non-csr zones in the everquest rule books that I was able to locate.

Maybe this was post velious? I'm not sure why they would suddenly change classic zones to non csr though at that point.

[Rogean]

You'll have to do some research for the exact news post that implemented it, I'm sure that contains information. Or perhaps your fellow players will help. I'm not here to answer your question about why every policy exists, just to fix your misconceptions.

You're still comparing it to eqlive in the rest of your post. It's not an EQLive related policy. You should stop doing that.

[Rogean]

Fear/sky/hate were listed as non-csr zones in the everquest rule books that I was able to locate.

How many times do I have to tell you that our No CSR policy is NOT related to live? Is there some sort of brain block going on here?

[Rhuma7]

Our "No CSR" Rule was not put in place to mimick live's, it is a separate rule in place for separate reasons. Therefor, your comparison to any relative eqlive policy is invalid.

Fear/sky/hate were listed as non-csr zones in the everquest rule books that I was able to locate.

Maybe this was post velious? I'm not sure why they would suddenly change classic zones to non csr though at that point.

[Tasslehofp99]

You'll have to do some research for the exact news post that implemented it, I'm sure that contains information. Or perhaps your fellow players will help. I'm not here to answer your question about why every policy exists, just to fix your misconceptions.

You're still comparing it to eqlive in the rest of your post. It's not an EQLive related policy. You should stop doing that.

Alright, thanks.

I wasn't calling you or any other gm/dev out with this post honestly just lookong to gauge server opinion as well as maybe acquiring new info regarding the matter.

[Rogean]

Tasslehofp99 needs to work on his reading comprehension.

[Tasslehofp99]

I underatand.
I'm looking for the reasons why the p99 no csr policy was implemented when it seems pretty clear that the live server rules were a bit different. Like, was there a previous discussion that I may have overlooked?


I'm failing to see why my post is warranting troll like responses when all I was looking for is information and opinions jeez. Sorry for being curious and bored at work.

[Rhuma7]

I will throw this in from the server rules as well with some bolding to reinforce the thread.

Q: What if our raid is disrupted? What if our raid interferes with another raid?
A: You may petition in game and if a staff member is available we will be more than happy to show up and evaluate the situation as it occurs. If a staff member is unavailable then please feel free to submit your petition under petitions/exploits on the forums at www.project1999.org. please be sure to include all relevant fraps & screenshots that you feel build your case. Players are not permitted to take the law into their own hands. You are not batman and two wrongs do not make a right, therefore killstealing or general douchebaggery are not permitted under any circumstances. ever.

[Faerie]

I feel that training should be allowed on blue, but not on red. On blue all you can really do is train each other, and on red we have other means of pvping. Namely pvp.

[Tasslehofp99]

There something wrong with asking a series of questions and asking people's honest opinions?

I mean the server health has been great lately and I figured now would be a good time to throw some inquiries out regarding a situation in the raiding scene. Sorry if i came off as combative, ignorant, or misinformed.


Hope you had a good time in vegas rogean, sry if this poll was out of line or done so in such a way that angered you. Mainly was just looking to kick off a discussion to kill time.

[Rogean]

Angering me would be another one of your misconceptions. It takes a lot to get me angry. You're just seeing me facepalming due to having to explain something multiple times. People may even get banned when I get angry, and that happens like... once a year? I dunno.

Anywho, just saying like it is. And if you read my disclaimer again I did say I wasn't stating the rule couldn't be changed. I just wanted to correct aforementioned misconception.

[Rhuma7]

It would be pretty funny if the rule was revoked and if a guild trained another guild in VP all their keys would be deleted :) Think twice before being a douchebag lol

If I was owner of p99, I wonder if the population would love or hate me?

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

No training allowed. Makes it better place for everyone.

[Vianna]

I honestly think it should be open to discussion again. It just doesn't make sense that training would be allowed in any zones with the current state of the server. Whether it is FE,IB,TMO or whomever it is.. It's just interfering with a raid instead of racing for targets. I mean if another guild beats you to the target you can just train them to get it ? Variance was put in for a reason to make it a competition...a race. FTE shouts are now in game to let people know who won the race. Training at this point seems to be a mechanic that allows the slower guild in each race in VP to still win the target with interference... That doesn't really fit in the spirit of competition. I mean I understand if it stays in... It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the mechanics introduced to the game.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sirken]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

[Tasslehofp99]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

Im personally working on this now, sirken.
Unfortunately not all parties involved are willing to negotiate at this point as far as I've been told.

[Laugher]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

I like that idea, but I'm also not in a guild atm haha. Everywhere else in the game things are regulated and (if necessary) enforced by GMs, on blue there really aren't many arenas where a compromise or even friendship among the raiders of high end content is promoted so much as a first-come-first-kill entitlement, perhaps VP is a good setting in which these things can happen before Velious?

(speculation): if ST or some similarly high end Velious zone is to be treated with the same policy wouldn't it be good to have perhaps worked out a resolution over things? With ST coming out it would seem that the awakening of the Sleeper (for example) would be something a lot of people (and guilds potentially) would want to be part of and that wouldn't be as possible without a bit of compromise.. compromise which would be more easily hammered out in Kunark than between trains in Velious.

*edit* my spelling errors, didn't see your post till I made mine Tassle glad to see someone's on this

[Tasslehofp99]

I honestly think it should be open to discussion again. It just doesn't make sense that training would be allowed in any zones with the current state of the server. Whether it is FE,IB,TMO or whomever it is.. It's just interfering with a raid instead of racing for targets. I mean if another guild beats you to the target you can just train them to get it ? Variance was put in for a reason to make it a competition...a race. FTE shouts are now in game to let people know who won the race. Training at this point seems to be a mechanic that allows the slower guild in each race in VP to still win the target with interference... That doesn't really fit in the spirit of competition. I mean I understand if it stays in... It just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the mechanics introduced to the game.

Just my 2 cents.

Couldnt have said it better myself, I agree with you on the fact that it may be time to revisit this discussion as a server. Maybe we can work out a system which makes more sense and supports the mantra of classic everquest we all love.

I mean its silly to me people bring up stuff like item links and /makeleader yet discussions regarding training in VP never happen and if they do trolls are on it like flies to a bag of shit.

[Vianna]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.


Well let's open that discussion right here. It doesn't have to be in private. This is a good forum for discussion right here. Let's see who is actually for or against making VP a true competition instead of who can train the best. I mean when the skill you brag about most as a player is the size of the train and how many people it killed...That sounds like PVP and not PVE.

TMO is skilled enough to kill targets without training another guild in VP. They demonstrate that when no one competes against them. Why not let all raid mobs be a race ? Just like the current ones outside of VP. They still have the numbers advantage as it stands on the server. They will still likely get most the mobs in VP with the number of keys they have for the zone and with variance they will likely have the larger force when mobs spawn at random times. Let's just discuss removing the aspect of training allowed in VP and future zones and make it a race like for any other mob. It is a benefit to all guilds to remove this. It means if you win the race you get your shot at it regardless of the size of your guild. If the larger guild can't field a force to win a race...That is on them and there should be no backdoor way out of it for anyone via training.

[sulpher01]

With this server's population, allowing it is the same as saying do it as much as possible.

[Zapatos]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

The players doing the majority of training in there do it because they want to. I really wish you had spent more time even just observing VP when there was still action to watch, then you'd see just how silly a statement like that is.

History of the server has shown no competing guild can go in there without being trained even if they say they don't want any training. See Vesica Dei: they decided as a guild to NOT train when they went into VP... and immediately got corpsed camped. It took barely a day for their internal poll to switch from 90% against training to 90% for training. I'm not going to put the blame all on the guild who was in there at the time, but I will say that sort of behavior has a positive feedback and it only takes one person to start it.

[xmonkx]

Im personally working on this now, sirken.
Unfortunately not all parties involved are willing to negotiate at this point as far as I've been told.

Until the GM's state that you can no longer train in VP, I will continue to unmercifully train any person or persons that steps into VP without a TMO tag on. You also ask for proof that training wasn't aloud in live. Well you're the one with the burden of proof to prove that it wasn't.

[Zapatos]

Until the GM's state that you can no longer train in VP, I will continue to unmercifully train any person or persons that steps into VP without a TMO tag on.

lol thanks for proving my point so quickly

[Tasslehofp99]

The players doing the majority of training in there do it because they want to. I really wish you had spent more time even just observing VP when there was still action to watch, then you'd see just how silly a statement like that is.

History of the server has shown no competing guild can go in there without being trained even if they say they don't want any training. See Vesica Dei: they decided as a guild to NOT train when they went into VP... and immediately got corpsed camped. It took barely a day for their internal poll to switch from 90% against training to 90% for training. I'm not going to put the blame all on the guild who was in there at the time, but I will say that sort of behavior has a positive feedback and it only takes one person to start it.

Good post, not to mention training is a quick and easy way to even the score on a competing guild which may have the upper hand. Sure, there are PLENTY of ways to derail trains but it then becomes a.numbers game with the guild who has more trainers coming out the Victor.


I would love to work out a player enforced play nice policy but could you imagine how fast that would be undone the second somone UNINTENTIONALLY trains. That is mainly why I questioned the logic behind GM sanctioned training, because if it isn't punishable inside VP, then no guild will ever risk losing a kill because they were slower to mobilize. Its easier to just wipe a raid with a train and keep em down until your raid can arrive. On the other hand if training in VP was enforced the risks of doing so would far outweigh the rewards.

[xmonkx]

lol thanks for proving my point so quickly

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Tasslehofp99]

Until the GM's state that you can no longer train in VP, I will continue to unmercifully train any person or persons that steps into VP without a TMO tag on. You also ask for proof that training wasn't aloud in live. Well you're the one with the burden of proof to prove that it wasn't.

Not really since training was obviously never allowed on live servers. I would be more inclined to actually think the opposite would be true. If you claim training was allowed, and all published evidence points to the contrary, then the burden of proof should fall on you.


Where are our nerfquesters? They are usually superb at finding buried treasures of eq info.

[xmonkx]

Not really since training was obviously never allowed on live servers. I would be more inclined to actually think the opposite would be true. If you claim training was allowed, and all published evidence points to the contrary, then the burden of proof should fall on you.


Where are our nerfquesters? They are usually superb at finding buried treasures of eq info.

So what you're telling me is all speculation and you made this thread and want people other then yourself to find if it was or was not aloud. Makes sense ......

[Silent]

VP training is a-ok

[xmonkx]

Please find me a thread or post or anything from live stating that you could NOT train in VP. Don't worry, i'll wait.

[sulpher01]

Fine have your poll, but its pointless

[Sirken]

The players doing the majority of training in there do it because they want to. I really wish you had spent more time even just observing VP when there was still action to watch, then you'd see just how silly a statement like that is.

History of the server has shown no competing guild can go in there without being trained even if they say they don't want any training. See Vesica Dei: they decided as a guild to NOT train when they went into VP... and immediately got corpsed camped. It took barely a day for their internal poll to switch from 90% against training to 90% for training. I'm not going to put the blame all on the guild who was in there at the time, but I will say that sort of behavior has a positive feedback and it only takes one person to start it.

you clearly missed what i was saying. you say players doing most of the training do it because they want to, maybe instead of assuming how much time i spend in VP, you should be thinking of ways to remove their incentive for training you. or train them back.

i love that you added, "GuildA decided as a guild not to train and then got corpse camped". First of all, who cares what one guild says or dictates? second, its laughable to think that they thought they wouldnt get trained in a zone that sees more trains than grand central station, simply because THEY decided not to train.

all the guilds need to agree to something or it doesnt work. and sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire until the other sides are willing to come to the table and talk.

if you do not force them to the discussion table with your actions, why would they agree to anything? i know i surely would not.

<3

PS- as for the guy that said he will train anyone not in his guild, well, hes not a guild leader, and if his GL tells him to knock it off, he will. but currently its open season, and hunters are gonna hunt

[Vianna]

Until the GM's state that you can no longer train in VP, I will continue to unmercifully train any person or persons that steps into VP without a TMO tag on. You also ask for proof that training wasn't aloud in live. Well you're the one with the burden of proof to prove that it wasn't.

See Sirken. This is why no discussion ever gets off the ground right here. No offense to TMO or anyone in their guild... Heck if I was in their shoes I would like the current rules on training in VP as well. They know that they have more numbers than anyone else. They also know that they can train with those numbers until people get burnt out in VP. TMO for better or worse likes it this way. Largely because they don't have to race in VP with the current rules about training inside VP. Which means they can raid VP at their leisure and if anyone tries to enter the zone they burn people out of the zone with hours of training on end.

Now with the current rules in place there is nothing wrong with this. The rules state they can do it so they do. There is no reason for them to negotiate anything even when the current mechanics added to the game allows for better competition. They know that if they were forced to race for mobs in VP the same as mobs outside of VP they wouldn't be able to lock as much of the current content down. This is why no negotiation will likely get off the ground with the current training rules in VP in place.


Now guys lets not argue with what was allowed on live. The current raiding rules here are different than live as Rogean has pointed out to you all. Now I only ask for a good reason from you Sericx why training should be allowed in VP with this servers rules and mechanics regardless of what was allowed or wasn't on live. You have variance with extended windows and FTE shouts in place that lets you know exactly who engages a mob first. Why would you need training at this point ? It is not a viable mechanic in the current raid scene to determine who has more skill or who wins a race to a mob. It only serves the purpose to raid interfere when you lose or are losing the race.

[musashi1612]

I would agree with sirken on the all guilds need to agree on somthing but we all know thats never gonna happen so exclude the douche bags that you know will not accept the Terms and discuss those Terms with the guilds that are willing to comply Then Maybe Just maybe Sirkens point of making them come to the table will be valid.

[Sirken]

See Sirken. This is why no discussion ever gets off the ground right here.

PS- as for the guy that said he will train anyone not in his guild, well, hes not a guild leader, and if his GL tells him to knock it off, he will. but currently its open season, and hunters are gonna hunt

[Valere]

Please find me a thread or post or anything from live stating that you could NOT train in VP. Don't worry, i'll wait.

I believe that would come down to universal game rules of training being against policy. For training to be OK in a specific zone or situation there would have to be a specific rule in place to allow that exception.

By your logic It's OK to exploit pathing in every zone that does not specifically state that you can't exploit pathing in that zone.

Unless, of course, I am missing some shard of logic on this point.
-------------------------------------
Everquest Rules of Conduct, Play Nice Policies, # 6 (You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area), last bullet point (Causing intentional experience loss to other players [deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc]).

[Vianna]

PS- as for the guy that said he will train anyone not in his guild, well, hes not a guild leader, and if his GL tells him to knock it off, he will. but currently its open season, and hunters are gonna hunt


Touche

[Zapatos]

I had no failure in understanding what you wrote, Sirken.

The point of VD being corpse camped wasn't to highlight their naivety, it was to show that people WILL take revenge on that kind of behavior and the training spirals out of control. And it wasn't all of tmo, it was roughly 3-5 core individuals who started it.. who still do it... thrive off it and will stay up 20 hours at a time doing it because they love griefing people off this box probably more than the next person loves jerking it.

Oh right and they're the leaders of tmo, thank you zeelot.

[Cecily]

I think the trains give a unique experience we normally wouldnt get on a blue server. The raiding scene is 100% played with a pvp mentality without the pvp, so it's nice to actually be able to kill your rivals in some capacity. Not a huge fan myself, but it's something other than the FTE races for everything else.

[xmonkx]

See Sirken. This is why no discussion ever gets off the ground right here. No offense to TMO or anyone in their guild... Heck if I was in their shoes I would like the current rules on training in VP as well. They know that they have more numbers than anyone else. They also know that they can train with those numbers until people get burnt out in VP. TMO for better or worse likes it this way. Largely because they don't have to race in VP with the current rules about training inside VP. Which means they can raid VP at their leisure and if anyone tries to enter the zone they burn people out of the zone with hours of training on end.

Now with the current rules in place there is nothing wrong with this. The rules state they can do it so they do. There is no reason for them to negotiate anything even when the current mechanics added to the game allows for better competition. They know that if they were forced to race for mobs in VP the same as mobs outside of VP they wouldn't be able to lock as much of the current content down. This is why no negotiation will likely get off the ground with the current training rules in VP in place.


Now guys lets not argue with what was allowed on live. The current raiding rules here are different than live as Rogean has pointed out to you all. Now I only ask for a good reason from you Sericx why training should be allowed in VP with this servers rules and mechanics regardless of what was allowed or wasn't on live. You have variance with extended windows and FTE shouts in place that lets you know exactly who engages a mob first. Why would you need training at this point ? It is not a viable mechanic in the current raid scene to determine who has more skill or who wins a race to a mob. It only serves the purpose to raid interfere when you lose or are losing the race.

You must have missed the FE boat when they went into VP, guess you didn't hear. They killed Druushk with the same rules implemented now. As far as dedication and motivation to stick it out and keep getting kills is another story. And the whole "they have more trainers then us" is complete bullshit. FE in there prime had a shit ton of them. Proof is in the pudding - skill over numbers.

[xmonkx]

I believe that would come down to universal game rules of training being against policy. For training to be OK in a specific zone or situation there would have to be a specific rule in place to allow that exception.

By your logic It's OK to exploit pathing in every zone that does not specifically state that you can't exploit pathing in that zone.

Unless, of course, I am missing some shard of logic on this point.
-------------------------------------
Everquest Rules of Conduct, Play Nice Policies, # 6 (You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area), last bullet point (Causing intentional experience loss to other players [deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc]).

VP is a non CSR zone as it was in live. I'm not sure which server you came from but Mith Marr was train wars. Now don't get me wrong some other servers were maybe diplomatic about this but on the other hand some were not.

[musashi1612]

If this is such a problem maybe as sirken has stated Numerous times Guilds need to work together As we all know TMO will only work with those they can Obsorb. problem solver What do you do when A super power is present? The peasants revolt i see no reason why guilds like Divinity BDA IB Taken Full circle Ect for those i missed Could possibly come to a temporary Solution you take 1 guild vs 5 guilds with all good population and members with the dedication the 5 guilds should always win. In this case i would say some of the people who do not belong to the So called premier guild but yet want to see those nice shiny pixels Need to make a common raid force or alliance as you would have it. When one guild gets some mobs and loot under there belt in there so called prime there is no reason that multiple guilds could not assist in this effort as i said 5v1 the 5 damn well should win. only the people playing this server can change who the big dogs are.

[Vianna]

You must have missed the FE boat when they went into VP, guess you didn't hear. They killed Druushk with the same rules implemented now. As far as dedication and motivation to stick it out and keep getting kills is another story. And the whole "they have more trainers then us" is complete bullshit. FE in there prime had a shit ton of them. Proof is in the pudding - skill over numbers.

You completely missed what I was saying. I don't care about the past and what mechanics were in place then. Variance wasn't always here...Extended Variance wasn't always here. FTE shouts just got added. This means that to get any mob in the game right now you have to first track it. After tracking it and seeing that it is up you have to then get a force to it to get FTE and kill it. The shout lets guilds know exactly who has FTE and for other guilds to back off. It has worked well so far from what I have seen of it. I was not complaining about the current mechanics in the game. No guild is wrong for using training when the current rules allows them to. I am saying look at the mechanics that are in the game. Training isn't needed to determine anything in any zone. It is just griefing by all parties at this point. WHOEVER does it.

Now to respond to your statement. I don't have a VP key. I wasn't around when training started between the 2 guilds in VP and honestly it has no relevance in the discussion I am trying to have. This isn't about just VP...It is about future zones as well. Now I know you enjoy playing the game a certain way Sericx because you have become accustomed to it. I am saying look at the current mechanics the GMs have put into the game. It looks like they set up the perfect competition for every guild that wants to raid for racing a certain way. Training another guild is not a mechanic that fits into the competition inside or outside of VP. It is at this point a griefing tool.

[Cecily]

Training is not a mechanic that fits into the competition inside or outside of VP. It is at this point a griefing tool.

A tool most often utilized by your new guild.

[Sckrilla]

A tool most often utilized by your new guild.

[Vianna]

A tool most often utilized by your new guild.


Listen... Hard feelings aside by all parties... Because it is your former guild too. As you well know guild members change frequently in most guilds. No guild is innocent of training. We all know that if you have been to more than one raid encounter on this server. This is not about what has happened before. This is a discussion about what the current mechanics of the game are and how it represents a good competition between guilds without having to train each other because we hold grudges. There is a set of mechanics in place on this server that allows for great competition by the people willing to compete with those mechanics. Why would any of us at this point want to train each other except for old grudges or griefing ? Makes no sense with the current mechanics in the raid scene.

Not one single person here can change anything that has happened over the past 3 years between this guild or that guild. We can however have a competition going forward that the current mechanics added to the game allows for without the griefing. Again this isn't about one zone. Velious is on the horizon. I think the mechanics added by the GMs show a clear picture of how they prefer the raid scene to play out. I don't think anyone can make a sound argument for why training another guild is a viable solution in certain zones. If your guild can't mobilize and win a race to a mob to kill it (All guilds here not just TMO) then training shouldn't be a solution anywhere to be a fail safe because you couldn't get enough people there.

[Swifty]

tl;dr

QQ

[sulpher01]

Tass your poll is pointless. The vast majority of people who come to these forums are the 'p99 raiding' type, and this policy benefits them... why are you thinking a poll is of any use?

Plus the staff seems to like where p99 raiding is at, variance + training = fun.

[Cecily]

I was amazed while hearing the griefing (live in vent) that 3 or 4 IB did on 6/29 12:01am to the few TMO that zoned in, and How TMO handled it in vent, I was impressed with how calm and cool and I was kind of shocked how TMO leaders just accepted this atrocious behavior of being deliberately trained by the 3 or 4 IB, it was as if being trained on purpose by IB in VP was just part of the VP experience. Yes I understand that VP is a no-gm assistant zone, but I thought it was at least play fair zone, not deliberate repeated training by Getsome and a few other IB.

The normal first reaction to VP is terror and confusion. It's honestly quite fun though.

[Vianna]

Tass your poll is pointless. The vast majority of people who come to these forums are the 'p99 raiding' type, and this policy benefits them... why are you thinking a poll is of any use?

Plus the staff seems to like where p99 raiding is at, variance + training = fun.

Training isn't fun for the majority of the people in guilds. It is fun for the few that do it.

[Tasslehofp99]

Sericx, we have already eatablished that training was never allowed on live and csr reps would punish those who committed intentional trains, regardless of where it occurred.

We also have already established that non csr zones did not mean training was allowed, it simply meant that you wouldn't receive any gm assistance recovering your corpses should you wipe.


All of this is kn the everquest rule book, which I linked on the original post. Stop shitting up my thread please, trying to open up a legit discussion here.

Rogean has already posted saying the non csr rule from live has nothing to do with training being allowed in vp on p99 so...what argument are you trying to make here?

[Tasslehofp99]

A tool most often utilized by your new guild.

Yo go to rants and flames please we're trying to have a discussion to.help the raid scene more closely resemble what it was on live. Training was never allowed or sanctiones by gms.

[Vianna]

The normal first reaction to VP is terror and confusion. It's honestly quite fun though.

Fun for who ? I guarantee you could poll the people who have raided VP on this server and most of them will agree that they would prefer to race for mobs instead of training for hours in any zone. I think the results of this poll is showing that as well.

[Cecily]

For the people who participate, unlike yourself. Please get a key.

Yo go to rants and flames please we're trying to have a discussion to.help the raid scene more closely resemble what it was on live. Training was never allowed or sanctiones by gms.

I am being abnormally civil!

[Vianna]

For the people who participate, unlike yourself.

Wrong. People that participate that I know personally completely disagree with you. There are some who will always enjoy griefing. But it has no viable spot in the current raid scene with the mechanics put in place by the GMs.

[Cecily]

So it's fun for the people who don't participate then. I could actually see that being true rofl.

[Tasslehofp99]

On live guilds would be disbanded for continually intentionally training, even in non-csr zones.

[Cecily]

Disband TMO imo.

[Laugher]

This issue should also be discussed by guild leaders of VP flagged guilds (and up and coming VP guilds) here. I am interested to hear what they have to say about the current policy being that they (or people they have chosen) lead groups of individuals into these zones. That is not to say that I haven't read everyone's opinions so far but this debate seems to lack leadership commentary.

Also I like musashi1612's idea (page 7) of guilds banding together given the current policy. This would enable the ousting of various raid forces who didn't comply to say diplomatic relations with other guilds and thereby establishing raid times/calls for a guild to have their time in VP. What it seems currently is that none of the guild higher ups are making any efforts to provide any order between guild relations and training. With a UN of VP keyd guilds so to say it would be far easier to provide orderly and kindly raid times for various guilds as enforced by diplomatic train squads. Given the current policy this would be a somewhat ideal way for everyone to have their raid time in VP as unimpeded as can be and enforced by the community.

Yes current mechanics can also be blamed for the situation, but this is blue and one of the mainstays of this server is depending on others to get where you want to go (ex. grouping) so why not be nice to one another to figure things out among yourselves and leave the ganking to enforcers and red?

*edit* given the current grey area of policy*

[Vianna]

Disband TMO imo.

Don't start this rhetoric no one wants anyone disbanded. There are grudges I am sure on both sides of the fence in several guilds. I ask you what I asked Sericx. Looking at the mechanics. With variance with extended windows that require tracking and getting a raid force to a mob....FTE shouts letting guilds know who won the race... Show a viable reason why training another guild is needed. Just 1 viable reason why it should still be in the game at this point.

[Tasslehofp99]

Sericx, we have already eatablished that training was never allowed on live and csr reps would punish those who committed intentional trains, regardless of where it occurred.

We also have already established that non csr zones did not mean training was allowed, it simply meant that you wouldn't receive any gm assistance recovering your corpses should you wipe.


All of this is kn the everquest rule book, which I linked on the original post. Stop shitting up my thread please, trying to open up a legit discussion here.

Rogean has already posted saying the non csr rule from live has nothing to do with training being allowed in vp on p99 so...what argument are you trying to make here?

Forgot to add something, and barring any dishonesty, cecily can vouch for me here.
FE was regularly outnumbered 2 to 1 while going for mobs in VP against TMO. I think 31 ppl was the most I saw while going through FE's vp logs. 24 people for our druushk kill (while 3 or 4 of them were thwarting tmo trains.)


Anyway, I'm not sure what speculation I'm making because a simple google search will reveal that training was always against the rules in everquest. But as was already stated by rogean, training being allowed in VP on p99 has no connection to any eqlive policies, including the fact that VP was a non csr zone.


Also, fear/hate are listed as non-csr zones as well sericx. Are you trying to say training was allowed there as well?

[t0lkien]

Don't start this rhetoric no one wants anyone disbanded. There are grudges I am sure on both sides of the fence in several guilds. I ask you what I asked Sericx. Looking at the mechanics. With variance with extended windows that require tracking and getting a raid force to a mob....FTE shouts letting guilds know who won the race... Show a viable reason why training another guild is needed. Just 1 viable reason why it should still be in the game at this point.

Raw undiluted spite?

[Vianna]

Raw undiluted spite?

lol is that viable though ? For competition that is.

[Tasslehofp99]

This issue should also be discussed by guild leaders of VP flagged guilds (and up and coming VP guilds) here. I am interested to hear what they have to say about the current policy being that they (or people they have chosen) lead groups of individuals into these zones. That is not to say that I haven't read everyone's opinions so far but this debate seems to lack leadership commentary.

Also I like musashi1612's idea of guilds banding together given the current policy. This would enable the ousting of various raid forces who didn't comply to say diplomatic relations with other guilds and thereby establishing raid times/calls for a guild to have their time in VP. What it seems currently is that none of the guild higher ups are making any efforts to provide any order between guild relations and training. With a UN of VP keyd guilds so to say it would be far easier to provide orderly and kindly raid times for various guilds as enforced by diplomatic train squads. Given the current policy this would be a somewhat ideal way for everyone to have their raid time in VP as unimpeded as can be and enforced by the community.

Yes current mechanics can also be blamed for the situation, but this is blue and one of the mainstays of this server is depending on others to get where you want to go (ex. grouping) so why not be nice to one another to figure things out among yourselves and leave the ganking to enforcers and red?

*edit* given the current grey area of policy*

Everything you've mentioned has been tried and tried again.

There is only 1 guild unwilling to negotiate regarding these issues which has been made apparent in many situations. I spent a bit of time tonight googling around on old forums for info regarding VP during kunark era and found tons of folks on other websites complaining about how shitty p99 raiding is and many of them mention the fact that training is unenforced as being one of their reasons to quit playing here.

This was one of the reasons that verant originally put a play nice policy in place, because they were losing players left and right to griefing assholes. Imagine what p99's population would look like if we had fair rules which were enforced and true to the rules laid out in classic everquest.

[Vianna]

I'll leave it for others to respond. Honestly though just show me where training another guild is needed to show which guild is better in any zone. Because I don't see it. Racing to targets that spawn in a certain window is competition. FTE shouts are in place to show who won the race and who has the first engage. At that point or anytime before that point...All training is is griefing and a stall tactic.

[musashi1612]

And now you will all see why i have scratched blue off my list and moved on to red atleast i know what im getting into there

[xmonkx]

Sericx, we have already eatablished that training was never allowed on live and csr reps would punish those who committed intentional trains, regardless of where it occurred.

We also have already established that non csr zones did not mean training was allowed, it simply meant that you wouldn't receive any gm assistance recovering your corpses should you wipe.


All of this is kn the everquest rule book, which I linked on the original post. Stop shitting up my thread please, trying to open up a legit discussion here.

Rogean has already posted saying the non csr rule from live has nothing to do with training being allowed in vp on p99 so...what argument are you trying to make here?

As I said Tassle, I dont know what server you came from but on Mith Marr it was work hard play hard. Aka training was aloud in VP. I wont believe otherwise until you show me some of your "Established Proof". You guys did ok in VP for the short time you were there. But you guys got burnt out and cry like bitches. And Vianna please get some raiding exp under your belt before comming in a raiding/training thread acting like you know some shit.

edit: Vianna, maybe if you were actually raiding when they implemented variances and FTE shouts - you would know they did this to counter poopsocking and less petitioning of GM's to see who got FTE snipes.

[newsmurf]

This is pretty laughable...again everyone who isn't TMO complains they want to reap the benefits of loot without matching the effort put in by the leading competitor. As sirken said...why would the guys on top want to change anything without you guys applying pressure? Stop throwing your hands up in the air asking for someone to fix things for you and take it upon yourselves. Shinko by himself griefed the hell out of a TMO raid for 4 hours, he made them miserable, i had TMO buds tell me how awful that raid was lol. Put your foot on their necks and step down on it until they have to ask you to breath. Assemble a raid force of alts outside of VP and make their life's miserable every time they log on to kill a dragon, you guys have the numbers, you have the keys, when their raids start taking 4-8 hours or aren't even completed, guess what, they might be willing to sit at a table with you and talk some terms = ). Don't try and play their game, play your own ^^.

[Tasslehofp99]

As I said Tassle, I dont know what server you came from but on Mith Marr it was work hard play hard. Aka training was aloud in VP. I wont believe otherwise until you show me some of your "Established Proof". You guys did ok in VP for the short time you were there. But you guys got burnt out and cry like bitches. And Vianna please get some raiding exp under your belt before comming in a raiding/training thread acting like you know some shit.

edit: Vianna, maybe if you were actually raiding when they implemented variances and FTE shouts - you would know they did this to counter poopsocking and less petitioning of GM's to see who got FTE snipes.


Look dude, training was never accepted by live sony csr reps. Non-csr meant no help recovering corpses. This non-csr tag was also given to fear/hate /sky, I certainly don't remember trains being accepted in those zones.

This post was made with the future of p99 in mind, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the past bud. Anyway rogean has already stated in this thread that p99's ruleset regarding VP was never meant to mirror the policies which live EQ had in place. This discussion is meant to shed light on that fact and other information regarding the topic. I also made this post to see where the server as a community stood regarding this topic.


I understand your reluctance to discuss any rule changes because the current rule set favors obe guild only at this point, and that's your guild.
Please try to understand though that there are thousand or so other players who invest time in this community who's opinion and knowledge should be taken into account when discussing matters such as this.

If the community as a whole decides that training is nothing more than cheap and unfair tactic used in order to gain an advantage and that it was in fact against the rules in all situations on live, who are you to say that isn't right? I didn't think one guild dictated the rules on the server regarding training and disruption of other players, even if said guild mistakenly interpreted a classic "non csr" policy to mean training was allowed. But again, I have no idea who or why this set of rules was put into place on p99, which is another reason I made this thread.

Just looked through afterlifes archived news updates from their first VP raid onwards and see no mention of training being allowed or any mention of them experiencing train wars on mith marr, btw.

[newsmurf]

p.s tassle man it would help a lot when you keep bringing up all these instances of "no training is alowed here etc.etc." or, tons of people say they quit p99 because "training this this or that raid mobs etc", if you just copy pasted these things from sites and posted them as examples. not trolling or anything, 100% constructive criticism it would make your claims more solid if you had examples.

[Tasslehofp99]

This is pretty laughable...again everyone who isn't TMO complains they want to reap the benefits of loot without matching the effort put in by the leading competitor. As sirken said...why would the guys on top want to change anything without you guys applying pressure? Stop throwing your hands up in the air asking for someone to fix things for you and take it upon yourselves. Shinko by himself griefed the hell out of a TMO raid for 4 hours, he made them miserable, i had TMO buds tell me how awful that raid was lol. Put your foot on their necks and step down on it until they have to ask you to breath. Assemble a raid force of alts outside of VP and make their life's miserable every time they log on to kill a dragon, you guys have the numbers, you have the keys, when their raids start taking 4-8 hours or aren't even completed, guess what, they might be willing to sit at a table with you and talk some terms = ). Don't try and play their game, play your own ^^.

You're missing the point, this server is meant to match classic everquest as closely as possibe right? So why is training allowed there when it wasn't on live eq?


My thing is no mob in kunark is hard, with 32k hps being the max. Training doesn't make any one guild better than another. In many cases during VP raids training is used as a tactic to buy your guild time, or as a defensive maneuver to prevent competing guilds from training you.


I say we just ban training altogether and let the real competition for VP begin.

[xmonkx]

Look dude, training was never accepted by live sony csr reps. Non-csr meant no help recovering corpses.

Just looked through afterlifes archived news updates from their first VP raid onwards and see no mention of training being allowed or any mention of them experiencing train wars on mith marr, btw.

Prove it?

And you looked through Afterlife's archives please show me this too because I raided with Afterlife. Again prove it. Your word is shit here Tassle. As I said, this is your thread, you have the burden of proof.

Mith Marr was a cutthroat server. Anyone from Mith Marr that plays on P99 can attest to that. Why do you think Cats and Hats left the server? Now dont get me wrong. Afterlife did some stuff to make the community happy. Open Hate/Fear raids for free loots. But when it came to contested mobs it was get the hell out the way or get ran over. Aka VP training.

[Tasslehofp99]

p.s tassle man it would help a lot when you keep bringing up all these instances of "no training is alowed here etc.etc." or, tons of people say they quit p99 because "training this this or that raid mobs etc", if you just copy pasted these things from sites and posted them as examples. not trolling or anything, 100% constructive criticism it would make your claims more solid if you had examples.

Original post contains a link to the everquest rulebook where you can easily find rules supporting my claims. Again the issue here isn't whether or not training was allowed on live, we have already established that it wasn't 7 pages back. The issue now is, why is it allowed in VP on P99?

[newsmurf]

im not missing the point -_-. the server rules aren't going to change. you're all missing the point by thinking they will =p.

[Vianna]

As I said Tassle, I dont know what server you came from but on Mith Marr it was work hard play hard. Aka training was aloud in VP. I wont believe otherwise until you show me some of your "Established Proof". You guys did ok in VP for the short time you were there. But you guys got burnt out and cry like bitches. And Vianna please get some raiding exp under your belt before comming in a raiding/training thread acting like you know some shit.

edit: Vianna, maybe if you were actually raiding when they implemented variances and FTE shouts - you would know they did this to counter poopsocking and less petitioning of GM's to see who got FTE snipes.


Stop belittling people please. All of us raided on live and have plenty of experience with raiding. Most of us anyway on this server. It is no different here than it was there except for the mechanics involving variance and FTE shouts. If you want to tell me some grand difference please do so. Answer the question I asked instead of belittling people in hopes that they will back down from your aggressive and combative attitude.

BTW we (Full Circle at the time) got VS and Innoruuk right before the windows in variance were extended. We took advantage of late in window mobs to do so. That was going to be our strategy going forward because we simply were not a hardcore guild. We were raiding when FTE shouts were implemented a whole (gasps) 3 weeks ago. We did not raid the same way as TMO or FE at the time because we were mostly a casual guild. Most of the mechanics is to get rid of staff involvement I agree with you on that one... congrats. That doesn't change what I have pointed out to you. Which you seem to have no reply for.

Show me how training another guild is a viable tool with the current end game mechanics. Show me where it has a place at all on a PVE server. I am glad you are convinced it was allowed on Mith marr and it very well could have been. This server isn't Mith Marr. It is Project 1999. There are many things different here than there was on live on any server. The changes implemented by the staff here make it a competitive end game where guilds race. It also allows GMs to have very little involvement...which is a good thing. What you can't seem to reply to is HOW training another guild is a good addition to these mechanics in any zone (VP now or any in the future). It doesn't add to the game experience at all and it does nothing but drive some people away from the game. Congrats I guess if you enjoy that.

[Versus]

VP was rotated between TMO and IB. This is because it was initially agreed upon, and then broken via a backstab. We agreed AGAIN to rotate mobs with IB, which was later broken again.

The reason it was rotated was because they were able to make our lives hell enough. You don't make our lives hell enough YET to come to any kind of agreement regarding a rotation. Simply coming to the table with nothing but your hand out isn't going to make us establish a deal with you.

Not speaking for the entire guild obviously. Training NEEDS to remain in the game to prevent fuckwit shittums from waking the Sleeper.

[xmonkx]

BTW we (Full Circle at the time) got VS and Innoruuk right before the windows in variance were extended.

Show me how training another guild is a viable tool with the current end game mechanics.

Grats? And you wonder why they moved to variances? Poopsock fest of 2013......

When was the last time someone killed a VP dragon... Seems like a good tool to me.

And also this isnt Mith Marr, but Rogean has spoken. QQ

[newsmurf]

[QUOTE=

The reason it was rotated was because they were able to make our lives hell enough. You don't make our lives hell enough YET to come to any kind of agreement regarding a rotation. Simply coming to the table with nothing but your hand out isn't going to make us establish a deal with you.
[/QUOTE]

Holy shit is anyone listening, stop being wankers like i said.

[newsmurf]

oh damn i suck, but ya you know who i was quoting =p

[Vianna]

VP was rotated between TMO and IB. This is because it was initially agreed upon, and then broken via a backstab. We agreed AGAIN to rotate mobs with IB, which was later broken again.

The reason it was rotated was because they were able to make our lives hell enough. You don't make our lives hell enough YET to come to any kind of agreement regarding a rotation. Simply coming to the table with nothing but your hand out isn't going to make us establish a deal with you.

Not speaking for the entire guild obviously. Training NEEDS to remain in the game to prevent fuckwit shittums from waking the Sleeper.

No one wants to rotate. We just want the competition to be the same everywhere. Training has no place in the end game with the current mechanics of the end game. Variance with extended windows and FTE shouts. It's a race to each mob. This isn't about just VP. Think beyond VP. There are long raids on the horizon come Velious. Why spend hours training each other when we can all simply agree that the mechanics in place now are suitable. Race to the mob...FTE shout gets the attempt first without interference. It saves us all a lot of time now and in the future.

[sulpher01]

Not speaking for the entire guild obviously. Training NEEDS to remain in the game to prevent fuckwit shittums from waking the Sleeper.

God I hope so... unkeyed zones that allow FFA training?! OMG... my time has come... ToV gonna be a lot of fun.. I've got 2 monks, a necro and an sk now from friends that have quit over the years. This would be my alternative to the crappy red server... I'll train on weekends :D

[Cecily]

Alright anyone who hasn't killed a raid mob isn't allowed to comment on VP rules from now on. Can we all agree with that at least?

[Vianna]

Grats? And you wonder why they moved to variances? Poopsock fest of 2013......

When was the last time someone killed a VP dragon... Seems like a good tool to me.

And also this isnt Mith Marr, but Rogean has spoken. QQ

Yes he said he was open to considering it. Read his responses. I am showing a very strong case of why it shouldn't be allowed anymore...make your case why it should.

[Vianna]

Alright anyone who hasn't killed a raid mob isn't allowed to comment on VP rules from now on. Can we all agree with that at least?

Killed trak just this week =p

[Rhambuk]

Alright anyone who hasn't killed a raid mob isn't allowed to comment on VP rules from now on. Can we all agree with that at least?

I'd be more interested in the rules of VP is VP was even close to what it was supposed to be.

Train away! its not like the zone offers any challenge, so not classic (

[newsmurf]

Why spend hours training each other when we can all simply agree that the mechanics in place now are suitable. Race to the mob...FTE shout gets the attempt first without interference. It saves us all a lot of time now and in the future.

Correction, it saves you time. TMO has no problem running you over, attaining 100% of the loot they desire, what don't you guys get? This mentality will not change. Well i can't speak for them, but i just don't see them having a change of heart one day, offering you guy's free shots at dragons =/. Have to earn it.

[Cecily]

Killed trak just this week =p

I was just saying in general. Obviously you're an experienced raider with vast knowledge of our current game end and your opinions on the matter are highly appreciated! Carry on.

[Bantam 1]

If you really want to stop training... you're going to have to train people so hard that even the top end people throw their hands up.

Maybe recruit people from red.

PS- Wouldn't the majority of people on this server have eq raid experience?

[Vianna]

I was just saying in general. Obviously you're an experienced raider with vast knowledge of our current game end and your opinions on the matter are highly appreciated! Carry on.

Sarcasm to simply deflect =) . Why didn't you respond to the question I asked ? Show 1 viable reason training should still exist with the current mechanics the GMs have put in the game. The best guild wins the race and gets FTE. Training outside of that is just griefing....by any guild who does it at this point.

[Vianna]

Correction, it saves you time. TMO has no problem running you over, attaining 100% of the loot they desire, what don't you guys get? This mentality will not change. Well i can't speak for them, but i just don't see them having a change of heart one day, offering you guy's free shots at dragons =/. Have to earn it.

No one wants a free shot at a dragon. You don't get free shots at dragons outside of VP with the same system. It is a competition of mobilization and racing to the targets. I am simply pointing out that at this point training is just griefing with the system in place by ALL GUILDS that choose to train. It isn't against the rules and there is nothing wrong with it as far as the rules state. I am hoping to have a constructive discussion to do away with it. It isn't needed anymore from all parties. TMO mobilizes fast enough to get plenty of mobs. It won't stop them from being the machine they are. It would make them prioritize a few more targets and donate resources to those targets. But it would do that for all guilds that choose to raid as well.

[Rhambuk]

Show 1 viable reason training should still exist with the current mechanics the GMs have put in the game. The best guild wins the race and gets FTE.

I thought the same about variance, with FTE in place why is there still a variance? no answer...

horrible mechanics put in place years ago and no one willing to change things to see if it would work a different way. vp will always be a train zone and mobs will spawn sometime +/- 3 days from their last kill...so dumb

[newsmurf]

alright vianna i don't mean to be rude but although you have a great altruistic approach, you just do not understand.
Tmo=100% of vp with rules in place. Why would they want to change anything? They have no reason to listen to you. Your moral compass can be pointed north all day, it does not matter, they aren't going to care lol. Again i don't represent them by any means, but I think it's safe to assume.

[Ele]

Hate the training rule. Tiggles' Twitch interview of Sirken indicated that the training was allowed (not because of a live/classic ruleset per Rogean's posts earlier in this thread) but because the zone's pathing was substandard and the brass didn't want to deal with petitions about training when two or more guilds were in the zone.

Pathing is better since last patch. However training rule should go. People asking others to prove training didn't exist in VP on live need to identify the criteria they will accept; eventhough, it isn't a classic issue but custom P99 rule per Rogean. So it doesn't matter if it did or didn't exist on live. 2+ years of VP farming didn't happen on live. New gear was still coming out of VP even after Velious dropped. These issues shouldn't be present in a proper timeline release, which doesn't really help the present situation which still requires addressing.

[newsmurf]

Im only speaking up because I fully believe there are a lot of guilds capable of changing the server, they just do not take the action to do so =/.

[Vianna]

alright vianna i don't mean to be rude but although you have a great altruistic approach, you just do not understand.
Tmo=100% of vp with rules in place. Why would they want to change anything? They have no reason to listen to you. Your moral compass can be pointed north all day, it does not matter, they aren't going to care lol. Again i don't represent them by any means, but I think it's safe to assume.

Well I am sure even they get tired of the random trainers in there too. As I also said it would still be hard for any guild to wrestle VP from them with the training rule change. I will say again this is not simply about VP. This is about future zones in the game as well...Where training can cause more nightmares.

[Ele]

P.S. fix proximity aggro. One person training a whole zone while people run through the train isn't classic.

Excellent work on the invis/ indirect aggro mechanism btw

[Tasslehofp99]

Prove it?

And you looked through Afterlife's archives please show me this too because I raided with Afterlife. Again prove it. Your word is shit here Tassle. As I said, this is your thread, you have the burden of proof.

Mith Marr was a cutthroat server. Anyone from Mith Marr that plays on P99 can attest to that. Why do you think Cats and Hats left the server? Now dont get me wrong. Afterlife did some stuff to make the community happy. Open Hate/Fear raids for free loots. But when it came to contested mobs it was get the hell out the way or get ran over. Aka VP training.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/template.cgi?page=index_jun_dec00

I looked through there for a bit starting from their first member zoning into veeshan's peak all the way through luclin release. I see no mention of any trains at all, in fact they still have screenshots you can look at for each update. Many of them show their guild members casually hanging out in places where they would easily be trained to death on p99.

Wish I could access some of these old forums, a lot of them are requiring me to have a username just to look at threads.

[Brut]

Hate the training rule. Tiggles' Twitch interview of Sirken indicated that the training was allowed (not because of a live/classic ruleset per Rogean's posts earlier in this thread) but because the zone's pathing was substandard and the brass didn't want to deal with petitions about training when two or more guilds were in the zone.
This has never stopped Inny/CT raids with multiple guilds being a fetid mess of training and wiping.

Pointless thread rly, GMs have already stated that this will only change if playerbase decides so. Only people from TMO posting in this are dps mooks with no real say in things, so it'll just be 20 pages before RnF.

[Tasslehofp99]

This has never stopped Inny/CT raids with multiple guilds being a fetid mess of training and wiping.

Pointless thread rly, GMs have already stated that this will only change if playerbase decides so. Only people from TMO posting in this are dps mooks with no real say in things, so it'll just be 20 pages before RnF.

:(:(:( I was too hopeful maybe, but there has been some good feedback. I just wish people could keep their rants in flames in the right forum because I think this is an important discussion we should attempt to have. Im going to give forumquest a break for a few, just got home from work. I'll stop back in later to see how this is looking!

[xmonkx]

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/template.cgi?page=index_jun_dec00

I looked through there for a bit starting from their first member zoning into veeshan's peak all the way through luclin release. I see no mention of any trains at all, in fact they still have screenshots you can look at for each update. Many of them show their guild members casually hanging out in places where they would easily be trained to death on p99.

Wish I could access some of these old forums, a lot of them are requiring me to have a username just to look at threads.

Why would the top guild post anything about training people? Why do you think Cats n Hats left the server? This is not proof. As I stated Afterlife was fairly nice to the public as long as you didnt touch their food.

[Alarti0001]

Prove it.


Hahaha finally got to use that line when it was relevant.

No sir prove that it wasn't. You made the poll

[Alarti0001]

No one wants to rotate. We just want the competition to be the same everywhere. Training has no place in the end game with the current mechanics of the end game. Variance with extended windows and FTE shouts. It's a race to each mob. This isn't about just VP. Think beyond VP. There are long raids on the horizon come Velious. Why spend hours training each other when we can all simply agree that the mechanics in place now are suitable. Race to the mob...FTE shout gets the attempt first without interference. It saves us all a lot of time now and in the future.

You are wrong. Tasslehoff absolutely wants to rotate.

[xmonkx]

You are wrong. Tasslehoff absolutely wants to rotate.

QFT

Work hard, play hard.

[Alarti0001]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

Considering FE is the only one training a guild in VP for the past few months.

[Alarti0001]

Sericx, we have already eatablished that training was never allowed on live and csr reps would punish those who committed intentional trains, regardless of where it occurred.


No you haven't.

[Alarti0001]

Sarcasm to simply deflect =) . Why didn't you respond to the question I asked ? Show 1 viable reason training should still exist with the current mechanics the GMs have put in the game. The best guild wins the race and gets FTE. Training outside of that is just griefing....by any guild who does it at this point.

1. Because fun.
2. FTE doesn't determine a better guild on 32k hp mobs.
3. Training a raid that is attempting a target that you also plan to attempt is competitive. Training a raid that is attempting a target that you have no plan to attempt is griefing. Which version does FE do?

[Tasslehofp99]

I don't want to rotate btw, no reason we can't race for VP mobs the same way as we do outside of VP.

[Vianna]

1. Because fun.
2. FTE doesn't determine a better guild on 32k hp mobs.
3. Training a raid that is attempting a target that you also plan to attempt is competitive. Training a raid that is attempting a target that you have no plan to attempt is griefing. Which version does FE do?

Both are griefing....Neither is fun unless you are the trainers. It is not competitive to train and kill a raid engaged on a dragon or attempting to engage a dragon. It's griefing. Competitive is exactly what Trak is like right now...Calling in the spawn, people racing to their chars and engaging before the other guild does. That is fun for all parties to race. Now if training was allowed there... Would simply training the guild winning the race make that more competitive ? It would just be raid interfering because you weren't fast enough to mobilize for the kill.

As I have said repeatedly all guilds are guilty of training at one point or another. It is not against server rules to do so in VP. So no one is in the wrong there. But let's not pretend that it adds to the competition when in reality it hampers competition. If you can outrace the other guild to a spawn and FTE and kill it first...That is competition because your guild cleanly outraced the other. I never said FTE did show the better guild...Mobilizing...racing...winning the race is the competition at this point because Kunark has been out so long. Now if you think adding trains to simply kill people because they were beating you is competitive...I dunno what to say to ya. Sounds like griefing cause you're losing or may lose. Not saying your guild is losing... Just saying that mechanic in the raid scene hampers any guild not a certain size in some zones.

[Tasslehofp99]

No sir prove that it wasn't. You made the poll

Training was never allowed, where did you get the idea that it was? Rogean already said the current p99 rule set for VP was not derived from any live EQ policies like 9 pages ago, I think.

[Tasslehofp99]

Both are griefing....Neither is fun unless you are the trainers. It is not competitive to train and kill a raid engaged on a dragon or attempting to engage a dragon. It's griefing. Competitive is exactly what Trak is like right now...Calling in the spawn, people racing to their chars and engaging before the other guild does. That is fun for all parties to race. Now if training was allowed there... Would simply training the guild winning the race make that more competitive ? It would just be raid interfering because you weren't fast enough to mobilize for the kill.

As I have said repeatedly all guilds are guilty of training at one point or another. It is not against server rules to do so in VP. So no one is in the wrong there. But let's not pretend that it adds to the competition when in reality it hampers competition. If you can outrace the other guild to a spawn and FTE and kill it first...That is competition because your guild cleanly outraced the other. I never said FTE did show the better guild...Mobilizing...racing...winning the race is the competition at this point because Kunark has been out so long. Now if you think adding trains to simply kill people because they were beating you is competitive...I dunno what to say to ya. Sounds like griefing cause you're losing or may lose. Not saying your guild is losing... Just saying that mechanic in the raid scene hampers any guild not a certain size in some zones.

Well said, I would think the second part about racing to dragons in VP to be especially true. It just sounds more fun than the current situation there. Rather than see who can build the biggest train and maintain the largest train team we could see who can get to the mob faster.

[Alarti0001]

Training was never allowed, where did you get the idea that it was? Rogean already said the current p99 rule set for VP was not derived from any live EQ policies like 9 pages ago, I think.

Already got 2 live servers saying training was allowed.

[Alarti0001]

Both are griefing....Neither is fun unless you are the trainers. It is not competitive to train and kill a raid engaged on a dragon or attempting to engage a dragon. It's griefing. Competitive is exactly what Trak is like right now...Calling in the spawn, people racing to their chars and engaging before the other guild does. That is fun for all parties to race. Now if training was allowed there... Would simply training the guild winning the race make that more competitive ? It would just be raid interfering because you weren't fast enough to mobilize for the kill.

As I have said repeatedly all guilds are guilty of training at one point or another. It is not against server rules to do so in VP. So no one is in the wrong there. But let's not pretend that it adds to the competition when in reality it hampers competition. If you can outrace the other guild to a spawn and FTE and kill it first...That is competition because your guild cleanly outraced the other. I never said FTE did show the better guild...Mobilizing...racing...winning the race is the competition at this point because Kunark has been out so long. Now if you think adding trains to simply kill people because they were beating you is competitive...I dunno what to say to ya. Sounds like griefing cause you're losing or may lose. Not saying your guild is losing... Just saying that mechanic in the raid scene hampers any guild not a certain size in some zones.


Stop trying to take away my fun to better suit your fun. Welcome to a raid guild Vianna. Put in some time before you try to change it to suit your needs.

[Tasslehofp99]

Stop trying to take away my fun to better suit your fun. Welcome to a raid guild Vianna. Put in some time before you try to change it to suit your needs.

We're talking about the future of the server's raid scene here, save your nasty comments for rants and flames please.

[quido]

FE would poopsock PD for a week straight just like they do VS if it wasn't for the current ruleset. I think we should extend the VP rules to the VS pit in KC.

[xmonkx]

FE would poopsock PD for a week straight just like they do VS if it wasn't for the current ruleset. I think we should extend the VP rules to the VS pit in KC.

I see what you did there Jeremy. And honestly I dont believe Vianna understands FE's history and training. Last raid suspension for training outside of vp was oooo lemmie think.... FE

[Tasslehofp99]

FE would poopsock PD for a week straight just like they do VS if it wasn't for the current ruleset. I think we should extend the VP rules to the VS pit in KC.

Cmon guy stop rants and flaming in my post seriously, if you're going to post atleast offer some logical explanation why training needs to be allowed. Especially considering TMO has had pretty much free reign over VP uncontested for a long time, whats to bad about a little change? You guys want competition right? Why can't it be more fair competition?

[Thulack]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

Or you guys could say "Stop being douchebags and don't train or you will get suspended". I understand you like the carnage on servers and the bitching and whining that happens but there are toolbags in all guilds that unless you say something isnt allowed they will do whatever they want. Training is a douchebags move anyway you put it. It should be limited to red and that is it.

[xarzzardorn]

Both are griefing....Neither is fun unless you are the trainers. It is not competitive to train and kill a raid engaged on a dragon or attempting to engage a dragon. It's griefing. Competitive is exactly what Trak is like right now...Calling in the spawn, people racing to their chars and engaging before the other guild does. That is fun for all parties to race. Now if training was allowed there... Would simply training the guild winning the race make that more competitive ? It would just be raid interfering because you weren't fast enough to mobilize for the kill.

As I have said repeatedly all guilds are guilty of training at one point or another. It is not against server rules to do so in VP. So no one is in the wrong there. But let's not pretend that it adds to the competition when in reality it hampers competition. If you can outrace the other guild to a spawn and FTE and kill it first...That is competition because your guild cleanly outraced the other. I never said FTE did show the better guild...Mobilizing...racing...winning the race is the competition at this point because Kunark has been out so long. Now if you think adding trains to simply kill people because they were beating you is competitive...I dunno what to say to ya. Sounds like griefing cause you're losing or may lose. Not saying your guild is losing... Just saying that mechanic in the raid scene hampers any guild not a certain size in some zones.

training and counter training does add to the competition and takes more skill than a lot of other things in this game. look at CT where a certain guild no longer goes because they can't even train a group of mobs to nowhere. "mobilizing and racing" is nice when it works but a lot of the time it is just a race from your toilet to the keyboard.

you aren't the taste maker of fun on p99. if you like mobilizing (how could you; you haven't killed anything), well, I like training. well come to the server but training has been the name of the game since the rotation in VP ended and crying because your guild got its ass kicked probably isn't going to change that

[xmonkx]

Cmon guy stop rants and flaming in my post seriously, if you're going to post atleast offer some logical explanation why training needs to be allowed. Especially considering TMO has had pretty much free reign over VP uncontested for a long time, whats to bad about a little change? You guys want competition right? Why can't it be more fair competition?

Is it not fair because your monks/sk's/necros suck? All it takes is 1 maybe MAYBE 2 good trainers to derail a kill.

[Vianna]

Stop trying to take away my fun to better suit your fun. Welcome to a raid guild Vianna. Put in some time before you try to change it to suit your needs.

Stop with the put in time crap Alarti it is old and worn out. None of us are new raiders in this game. All of us know how to kill these mobs. It seems you and Sericx seem to think raiding in Everquest started on this server and we need to spend some imaginary amount of time doing it here instead of on live to have some kind of "cred". Try to actually have the discussion without trying to derail it for once.


I offer the same question to you I did to Sericx and Cecily. Neither of them could come up with a reason. You give it a shot and try to make it sound extra viable in the Alarti fashion. Name one VIABLE reason training should be a mechanic in the raid scene in any zone right now with the endgame mechanics the staff have in place right now. Just 1 viable reason about how that mechanic is needed with the current mechanics.

[Thulack]

1. Because fun.
2. FTE doesn't determine a better guild on 32k hp mobs.
3. Training a raid that is attempting a target that you also plan to attempt is competitive. Training a raid that is attempting a target that you have no plan to attempt is griefing. Which version does FE do?

You really should go play on red. You would fit right in with the rest of them. Point of EQ is for everyone to have fun not just the biggest dbags on the server.

[Tasslehofp99]

training and counter training does add to the competition and takes more skill than a lot of other things in this game. look at CT where a certain guild no longer goes because they can't even train a group of mobs to nowhere. "mobilizing and racing" is nice when it works but a lot of the time it is just a race from your toilet to the keyboard.

you aren't the taste maker of fun on p99. if you like mobilizing (how could you; you haven't killed anything), well, I like training. well come to the server but training has been the name of the game since the rotation in VP ended and crying because your guild got its ass kicked probably isn't going to change that

I wasn't aware TMO dictated the rules of the server, sorry.


Is it not fair because your monks/sk's/necros suck? All it takes is 1 maybe MAYBE 2 good trainers to derail a kill.

Keep rants in flames in the correct forum as well please.

[xmonkx]

Stop with the put in time crap Alarti it is old and worn out. None of us are new raiders in this game. All of us know how to kill these mobs. It seems you and Sericx seem to think raiding in Everquest started on this server and we need to spend some imaginary amount of time doing it here instead of on live to have some kind of "cred". Try to actually have the discussion without trying to derail it for once.


I offer the same question to you I did to Sericx and Cecily. Neither of them could come up with a reason. You give it a shot and try to make it sound extra viable in the Alarti fashion. Name one VIABLE reason training should be a mechanic in the raid scene in any zone right now with the endgame mechanics the staff have in place right now. Just 1 viable reason about how that mechanic is needed with the current mechanics.

Why is the sky blue?
Why does Coke taste better than Pepsi?
Why cant the Cowboys get over a 500 record?
Why did A-Rod takes steroids?

Cant answer any of these questions but it is what it is. Deal with it

[Vianna]

training and counter training does add to the competition and takes more skill than a lot of other things in this game. look at CT where a certain guild no longer goes because they can't even train a group of mobs to nowhere. "mobilizing and racing" is nice when it works but a lot of the time it is just a race from your toilet to the keyboard.

you aren't the taste maker of fun on p99. if you like mobilizing (how could you; you haven't killed anything), well, I like training. well come to the server but training has been the name of the game since the rotation in VP ended and crying because your guild got its ass kicked probably isn't going to change that


More derailment by TMO. Yes I have killed things...Some of us actually played this on live and didn't die 100 times on a chanter leveling it on this server. I have been no part of training thank you very much and despise it. I wasn't in VP when you guys went after each other (I doubt you were there for the majority of it)...and not to get off topic (Which it seems all of you are trying to do...get it off topic and derail). This is about more than VP. This server isn't going to stop at VP think ahead.

[xmonkx]

I wasn't aware TMO dictated the rules of the server, sorry.




Keep rants in flames in the correct forum as well please.

My response has nothing to do with RnF that was a legit statement on this current topic.

[Vianna]

Why is the sky blue?
Why does Coke taste better than Pepsi?
Why cant the Cowboys get over a 500 record?
Why did A-Rod takes steroids?

Cant answer any of these questions but it is what it is. Deal with it

Well you can't answer a lot of things. =)

[Thulack]

Why is the sky blue?
The atmosphere is the mixture of gas molecules and other materials surrounding the earth. It is made mostly of the gases nitrogen (78%), and oxygen (21%). Argon gas and water (in the form of vapor, droplets and ice crystals) are the next most common things. There are also small amounts of other gases, plus many small solid particles, like dust, soot and ashes, pollen, and salt from the oceans.

The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering. As light moves through the atmosphere, most of the longer wavelengths pass straight through. Little of the red, orange and yellow light is affected by the air.

However, much of the shorter wavelength light is absorbed by the gas molecules. The absorbed blue light is then radiated in different directions. It gets scattered all around the sky. Whichever direction you look, some of this scattered blue light reaches you. Since you see the blue light from everywhere overhead, the sky looks blue.

Why does Coke taste better than Pepsi?
Is a personal choice so no real answer there.

Why cant the Cowboys get over a 500 record?
Cause they have a quarterback who is not clutch and rest on the fact they are "America's Team"


Why did A-Rod takes steroids?
Because he has low self Esteem and thought that by being the best he would get everyone to like him.

Cant answer any of these questions but it is what it is. Deal with it

[Tasslehofp99]

Is it not fair because your monks/sk's/necros suck? All it takes is 1 maybe MAYBE 2 good trainers to derail a kill.

My response has nothing to do with RnF that was a legit statement on this current topic.

Really?


Anyway, we're talking about more then just the past between FE/TMO right now!
Stop trying to shit my thread up for the love of christ!

[xmonkx]

Well you can't answer a lot of things. =)

Deal with it......

[Tasslehofp99]

Deal with it......

Luckily for the rest of project1999, you aren't the one who makes the rules.

where da forum mods out get these rnf trolls outa here

[Vianna]

Deal with it......

Deal with what ? Your inability to have a conversation ? /shrug

I don't want to put you down because I feel bad for you and your inability to form coherent thoughts.

[Thulack]

I answered the questions by the way.

[xmonkx]

Luckily for the rest of project1999, you aren't the one who makes the rules.

where da forum mods out get these rnf trolls outa here

Not sure how what im saying is classified as RnF when your POLL is "do you think the current VP rules are bullshit?"

Now we want to say its more then VP and its about later content.. You're reaching Tassle.

[Cecily]

if you like mobilizing (how could you; you haven't killed anything)

That is not true! Vianna killed Trak that one time last week!

Also motion to move thread to RnF due to potty mouth poll title.

[Vianna]

Not sure how what im saying is classified as RnF when your POLL is "do you think the current VP rules are bullshit?"

Now we want to say its more then VP and its about later content.. You're reaching Tassle.

You need to read the thread and see where the discussion turned into that.. It's like math...Put 2 and 2 together to make 4.

[Vianna]

That is not true! Vianna killed Trak that one time last week!

I am so glad this is your first EQ experience !!! You must be having a blast.

[Tasslehofp99]

Not sure how what im saying is classified as RnF when your POLL is "do you think the current VP rules are bullshit?"

Now we want to say its more then VP and its about later content.. You're reaching Tassle.

Considering Velious is a ways out, the future of raiding on p99 and Veeshan's peak rules belong in the same conversation. Besides, we're talking about other guilds beside TMO/FE. Don't you think the other 90% of players who haven't seen VP are going to want to once you guys let your deathgrip go come velious? Isn't this conversation relevant to those folks?

[Vianna]

Considering Velious is a ways out, the future of raiding on p99 and Veeshan's peak rules belong in the same conversation. Besides, we're talking about other guilds beside TMO/FE. Don't you think the other 90% of players who haven't seen VP are going to want to once you guys let your deathgrip go come velious? Isn't this conversation relevant to those folks?

[Thulack]

Considering Velious is a ways out, the future of raiding on p99 and Veeshan's peak rules belong in the same conversation. Besides, we're talking about other guilds beside TMO/FE. Don't you think the other 90% of players who haven't seen VP are going to want to once you guys let your deathgrip go come velious? Isn't this conversation relevant to those folks?

TMO will just keep training anyone that tries to goto VP even if they arent hunting VP. We all know this.

[Vianna]

Still waiting on a viable reason training should be a mechanic in any zone. Derail as much as you like and try to shoot the messenger... But none of you have a reason yet.

[Cecily]

People like you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIEHI0vfCBk)

[xmonkx]

Considering Velious is a ways out, the future of raiding on p99 and Veeshan's peak rules belong in the same conversation. Besides, we're talking about other guilds beside TMO/FE. Don't you think the other 90% of players who haven't seen VP are going to want to once you guys let your deathgrip go come velious? Isn't this conversation relevant to those folks?

Sure people and other guilds can see VP, get a key and meet me inside. As for Velious I cant say if we will be in VP or not. But highly doubtful imo with so many bosses in Velious. And this was also another classic feature for smaller guilds. They didnt get to see content at time, had to wait till the next xpac so the tier 1-2 guilds would move on. This is classic.

[Vianna]

People like you.

That makes perfect sense =)

Although I won't take your 12 year old bait and argue with you. I don't understand your combative nature when we have never had a problem with one another. Seems you just want to be sarcastic and derail because you are in a guild that kills a dragon ? Hate to tell ya there were a lot of servers doing the exact same things 12 years ago. I really am happy you are having fun with the game. Heck I am happy for anyone that has fun with the game... But not when it is detrimental to other people that want to have fun as well.

Not every guild can be the top guild everyone knows that. But training in some zones won't change who is or isn't the top guild on a server. I honestly don't see why so many of you are threatened by this discussion. I mean I understand it somewhat you can stifle any competition with the current mechanic in VP and in zones in velious (Which I am more worried about personally). But if you wanted to kill people to get to that status why are you on a blue server ?

[Excidium]

Sure people and other guilds can see VP, get a key and meet me inside. As for Velious I cant say if we will be in VP or not. But highly doubtful imo with so many bosses in Velious. And this was also another classic feature for smaller guilds. They didnt get to see content at time, had to wait till the next xpac so the tier 1-2 guilds would move on. This is classic.

Lower tier guilds didn't have to wait 2 years between expansions, and the top guilds weren't nearly as greedy as TMO seems to be. Naggy and vox kills 4 years later is not classic. Don't spew that crap about blade stoppers either, abusing them wasn't classic either.

[xmonkx]

That makes perfect sense =)

Although I won't take your 12 year old bait and argue with you. I don't understand your combative nature when we have never had a problem with one another. Seems you just want to be sarcastic and derail because you are in a guild that kills a dragon ? Hate to tell ya there were a lot of servers doing the exact same things 12 years ago. I really am happy you are having fun with the game. Heck I am happy for anyone that has fun with the game... But not when it is detrimental to other people that want to have fun as well.

Not every guild can be the top guild everyone knows that. But training in some zones won't change who is or isn't the top guild on a server. I honestly don't see why so many of you are threatened by this discussion. I mean I understand it somewhat you can stifle any competition with the current mechanic in VP and in zones in velious (Which I am more worried about personally). But if you wanted to kill people to get to that status why are you on a blue server ?

You're terminology of fun vs mine is 2 completely different things. I actually enjoy training people in VP. Doesn't mean I like to train people outside of there does it? So lets make VP a non trained zone k, whats next? lets make a rotation? and after? you kill he dragon for me and just give me the loot? You want the pixels you fight for them.

[radditsu]

I have trained for hours in vp.


It is the dumbest thing I have ever done.

They did not soul bind keys because of asshole trainers in vp. They did it because it is hard enough to do on its own.


Remove soulbound keys and I bet this kind of griefing goes away.

Either way it is dumb and wastes a players time and patience. It makes good players resent each other for pixels. Poison imo.

[Rhambuk]

But if you wanted to kill people to get to that status why are you on a blue server ?

gathering up 20 raid mobs is way easier than actually pvping or doing anything that requires any sort of attempt.

Training is such a bad concept for an endgame raid zone.

[Vianna]

Sure people and other guilds can see VP, get a key and meet me inside. As for Velious I cant say if we will be in VP or not. But highly doubtful imo with so many bosses in Velious. And this was also another classic feature for smaller guilds. They didnt get to see content at time, had to wait till the next xpac so the tier 1-2 guilds would move on. This is classic.

Your knowledge of live is lacking...A lot of loot from VP wasn't discovered until Velious. The timeline here is messed up which is why this discussion is being broached in the first place. Also the training rules in VP would still affect those guilds come velious which is why it needs to be discussed. No offense the server doesn't start and end with where TMO currently is. I have friends in your guild and I honestly do not have many hard feelings at all towards you guys... This is an honest discussion about this. It is not to gain an advantage for anyone. You guys still have the same numbers and mobilization to not lose much even without training. If you said train wars happened in Kunark in VP over Phara Dar etc I have to question your credibility.

[xmonkx]

Lower tier guilds didn't have to wait 2 years between expansions, and the top guilds weren't nearly as greedy as TMO seems to be. Naggy and vox kills 4 years later is not classic. Don't spew that crap about blade stoppers either, abusing them wasn't classic either.

Um yah, rez sticks are almost invaluable in velious. And at this current time Bladestoppers are a monks best friend. So these targets will still be actively killed.

[Vianna]

You're terminology of fun vs mine is 2 completely different things. I actually enjoy training people in VP. Doesn't mean I like to train people outside of there does it? So lets make VP a non trained zone k, whats next? lets make a rotation? and after? you kill he dragon for me and just give me the loot? You want the pixels you fight for them.

No one wants a rotation I love actual competition and not griefing.

[Ele]

I don't understand the mentality that derives enjoyment out of ruining other people's gaming experience e.g training and PKing.

[xmonkx]

Your knowledge of live is lacking...A lot of loot from VP wasn't discovered until Velious. The timeline here is messed up which is why this discussion is being broached in the first place. Also the training rules in VP would still affect those guilds come velious which is why it needs to be discussed. No offense the server doesn't start and end with where TMO currently is. I have friends in your guild and I honestly do not have many hard feelings at all towards you guys... This is an honest discussion about this. It is not to gain an advantage for anyone. You guys still have the same numbers and mobilization to not lose much even without training. If you said train wars happened in Kunark in VP over Phara Dar etc I have to question your credibility.

Not my thread, show me something that says it wasn't aloud. Thanks

[Vianna]

Um yah, rez sticks are almost invaluable in velious. And at this current time Bladestoppers are a monks best friend. So these targets will still be actively killed.

Your knowledge again fails you. People weren't hoarding those items on live for Velious. No offense we are more knowledgeable now than then but stop pretending this was ever normal practice in kunark on live.

[Tasslehofp99]

You're terminology of fun vs mine is 2 completely different things. I actually enjoy training people in VP. Doesn't mean I like to train people outside of there does it? So lets make VP a non trained zone k, whats next? lets make a rotation? and after? you kill he dragon for me and just give me the loot? You want the pixels you fight for them.

What is your logic behind training being allowed in VP vs outside of VP? I mean, what is the difference? Like vianna mentioned it takes away from the competition, and it really has no place in everquest raiding.

[radditsu]

@sirken

I love you man but your pvp mentality causes issues on a blue server sometimes. People play blue to race to mobs and play the content. Not dealing with griefers.

If a guild has enough trak kills for keys, the have every right to be there unmolested (intentionally).

Killing trak 15 times is plenty of work to slay more dragons that drop suspect weaponry cum velious and a crown and a robe.

[quido]

FE would poopsock PD for a week straight just like they do VS if it wasn't for the current ruleset. I think we should extend the VP rules to the VS pit in KC.

Cmon guy stop rants and flaming in my post seriously, if you're going to post atleast offer some logical explanation why training needs to be allowed. Especially considering TMO has had pretty much free reign over VP uncontested for a long time, whats to bad about a little change? You guys want competition right? Why can't it be more fair competition?

This isn't RnFing your post - it's a pretty solid reason among a number of others, in my opinion.

Tasslehof, did you ever think that the staff said to themselves "well shit is going to happen in VP, rules or not, and we don't need another slew of headaches each week," or something to this effect? VP is a large and dangerous zone - shit is going to happen. I can't really blame the staff for not wanting to deal with it. There's damn near 100 zones in which you can play PetitionQuest - I personally am thankful that VP is not one of them because I think if they were forced to sort out foul play issues here, it would seriously discourage action from being taken anywhere.

I'm going for a boat ride - I will add more to this later!

[xmonkx]

Your knowledge again fails you. People weren't hoarding those items on live for Velious. No offense we are more knowledgeable now than then but stop pretending this was ever normal practice in kunark on live.

You are blind and must have been in a low tier gear if you dont believe top tier guilds were hoarding these items for Velious. But this doesn't surprise me.

[Rhambuk]

I don't understand the mentality that derives enjoyment out of ruining other people's gaming experience e.g training and PKing.

So true, even on live when i first started I'll admit i did some dickhole things to grief people, training guards over camps so when they path back they agro people etc etc. none of it was fun for me and im sure it wasn't for them.

No idea how people can enjoy spending hours just training each other, i would rather give them the mob and call it done then screw off for hours training JUST so the other guild cant get the mob, not so we can get it but so they can't

dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb

[Rhambuk]

This isn't RnFing your post - it's a pretty solid reason among a number of others, in my opinion.

Tasslehof, did you ever think that the staff said to themselves "well shit is going to happen in VP, rules or not, and we don't need another slew of headaches each week," or something to this effect?

I'm going for a boat ride - I will add more to this later!

why even impliment vp or start this porject at all if they don't want to deal with the headache.

Remove VP, that'll make everyone happy.

enjoy the boat trip, drink many beers and don't fall off the side =p

[Vianna]

This isn't RnFing your post - it's a pretty solid reason among a number of others, in my opinion.

Tasslehof, did you ever think that the staff said to themselves "well shit is going to happen in VP, rules or not, and we don't need another slew of headaches each week," or something to this effect? VP is a large and dangerous zone - shit is going to happen. I can't really blame the staff for not wanting to deal with it. There's damn near 100 zones in which you can play PetitionQuest - I personally am thankful that VP is not one of them because I think if they were forced to sort out foul play issues here, it would seriously discourage action from being taken anywhere.

I'm going for a boat ride - I will add more to this later!

Yes but with the current variance and FTE shouts GMs are not needed. Everyone sees who has FTE. The only thing that stops competition from being real is training. The mechanics are on the server now with FTE shouts and variance to discourage poopsocking...If someone chose to go into VP and Kill mobs between spawns why should training be allowed to stop that ? Adapt to the competition instead of just training as an answer.

[xmonkx]

What is your logic behind training being allowed in VP vs outside of VP? I mean, what is the difference? Like vianna mentioned it takes away from the competition, and it really has no place in everquest raiding.

I never stated let training be allowed outside of VP, I just go by the rules and ride that till the wheels fall off. And training does not take away from the competition it adds to it.

[radditsu]

I never stated let training be allowed outside of VP, I just go by the rules and ride that till the wheels fall off. And training does not take away from the competition it adds to it.

That is what red is for.

[Vianna]

I never stated let training be allowed outside of VP, I just go by the rules and ride that till the wheels fall off. And training does not take away from the competition it adds to it.

It adds nothing to competition. From either side. Show viably how training a guild adds to competition in any zone. If anything it is used by a guild who is behind to grief in the zone. It is rarely used in a competitive manner in its current state. I am not saying any guild is innocent or guilty here. Those are the current rules. It just has no place in the game anymore. You can't be honest with yourself and say it does.

[Rhambuk]

I never stated let training be allowed outside of VP, I just go by the rules and ride that till the wheels fall off. And training does not take away from the competition it adds to it.

Training is hardly competitive....1 person from each raid brings 30+ mobs to other raid, who can log out without losing the most people and come back to train the other guild before they attempt.

wow...thats some hardcore competition right there. So glad I didn't waste any time getting 60 or getting a vp key for that crap. Well at least now i know its not going to be worth 60 in velious and no sense trying to join a raid guild for that bullshit.

[xmonkx]

Training is hardly competitive....1 person from each raid brings 30+ mobs to other raid, who can log out without losing the most people and come back to train the other guild before they attempt.

wow...thats some hardcore competition right there. So glad I didn't waste any time getting 60 or getting a vp key for that crap. Well at least now i know its not going to be worth 60 in velious and no sense trying to join a raid guild for that bullshit.

Lol if you think its that easy to train without being counter trained or the mobs ripped off you, you're sadly mistaken. Or fighting to eat dragon charms 1st so you can kill their trainer 1st or so many other strats I will not get into to keep secret. Yah, doesnt add competition, just camp out.......

Pro tip - 30 mobs inc - bladestopper.... think about it.

[Vianna]

Lol if you think its that easy to train without being counter trained or the mobs ripped off you, you're sadly mistaken. Or fighting to eat dragon charms 1st so you can kill their trainer 1st or so many other strats I will not get into to keep secret. Yah, doesnt add competition, just camp out.......

Pro tip - 30 mobs inc - bladestopper.... think about it.

Strats to train people... Sounds like you need some PVP action.

[Rhambuk]

Lol if you think its that easy to train without being counter trained or the mobs ripped off you, you're sadly mistaken. Or fighting to eat dragon charms 1st so you can kill their trainer 1st or so many other strats I will not get into to keep secret. Yah, doesnt add competition, just camp out.......

Pro tip - 30 mobs inc - bladestopper.... think about it.

Sounds like a real blast, you guys have fun with that. I might go back and try eqlive now that its free.

[radditsu]

Poll numbers.

[Tasslehofp99]

atleast someone gets it


Tass has been the new Harrison now for months, its been proven time and time again he is just upset with TMO.

Yes Train in VP cuz GMs dont have all day to hold your hand
No Trains in Hate Fear or any of that, see the "Dont be a dick" policy
Yes Train in Sleepers see how bad they really wanna kill warders =p
No trains in ToV Armor and raids for all make the whole server a better place

This has nothing to do with TMO.
Why can't the "Don't be a dick" policy apply to VP? What makes it any different than fear/hate? Training is weak, its not competitive and being able to train doesn't make you a good EQ player.

[Alarti0001]

Stop with the put in time crap Alarti it is old and worn out. None of us are new raiders in this game. All of us know how to kill these mobs. It seems you and Sericx seem to think raiding in Everquest started on this server and we need to spend some imaginary amount of time doing it here instead of on live to have some kind of "cred". Try to actually have the discussion without trying to derail it for once.


I offer the same question to you I did to Sericx and Cecily. Neither of them could come up with a reason. You give it a shot and try to make it sound extra viable in the Alarti fashion. Name one VIABLE reason training should be a mechanic in the raid scene in any zone right now with the endgame mechanics the staff have in place right now. Just 1 viable reason about how that mechanic is needed with the current mechanics.

Huh? I think any guild can kill most of these mobs. If there wasn't competition. Here is a viable reason. Fun, Competition.

[radditsu]

Huh? I think any guild can kill most of these mobs. If there wasn't competition. Here is a viable reason. Fun, Competition.


I would assert racing to the dragon/brilliant pulling is just as much fun.

Fun and competition are relative concepts.

[Thulack]

Huh? I think any guild can kill most of these mobs. If there wasn't competition. Here is a viable reason. Fun, Competition.

If you want competition go outside and play a real sport or atleast play a game with some kind of scoreboard to show the competition. Training people in a video game to keep them from getting loot isnt competition. It's being a ass.

Edit: A game of Monopoly should have more competition then EQ. It has a end to it.

[Splorf22]

TBH training in VP to me always seemed like a silly kind of PVP. 3 classes get invulnerability and hugely overpowered weapons; the other classes get nothing and get to run around the entrance and try not to die. I suppose this is a lot of fun if you are an FD class, but it's REAL hard for me to see how this kind of pseudo-PVP is within the vision of Verant. I mean everything they have written about the subject is how they didn't want their game to be like UO.

Also Jeremy I think if you really thought about what you were saying you'd realize that the 'competitive EQ' that occurs on this server is beyond dumb. Aside from the utterly retarded tracking and batphoning, EQ is simply not designed for multiple competing raid forces in the same zone. If you clear you'll just get leapfrogged, so everyone tries to train away and sneak out the boss and it all comes down to who has the good monk/sk team and who can plausibly deny training the other squad.

One of the things that boggles my mind the most is that the staff are ok with the current raid scene. AFAIK Nilbog doesn't really like it, but he'd rather work on Velious; Rogean doesn't really like it, but he's busy with his job; but amazing Sirken and Ephi and the GM team actually approve of the current raid scene and that just boggles my mind.

inb4 'you just don't want to compete'

[Vianna]

Huh? I think any guild can kill most of these mobs. If there wasn't competition. Here is a viable reason. Fun, Competition.

Training is not competition. It could be in the right environment. But in this situation it is simply a grief tool. Even you admit it is a grief tool when used against your guild currently. You complained about it in this very thread earlier. It is a mechanic that is not needed with the current GM changes to Variance and FTE shouts. If you win the race you win the mob. Training should not be a tool in any zone for that at this point or in the future of the server. It stifles competition, it doesn't promote it.

Ok guys enjoyed the discussion gotta head out. Have a great day.

[Splorf22]

Huh? I think any guild can kill most of these mobs. If there wasn't competition. Here is a viable reason. Fun, Competition.

I would much rather see variance removed and PVP enabled when the raid mobs are up. That's actually competition.

You must be one of those guys who show up to new movies 12 hours in advance with a stadium pal and scream 'HAHAH I OUTCOMPETED YOU! MY GENES WILL GO TO THE NEXT GENERATION' to people that show up only 10 hours in advance.

God I don't know why I post in these threads, talking to people like Alarti makes me question the future of the human race.

[Thulack]

TBH training in VP to me always seemed like a silly kind of PVP. 3 classes get invulnerability and hugely overpowered weapons; the other classes get nothing and get to run around the entrance and try not to die. I suppose this is a lot of fun if you are an FD class, but it's REAL hard for me to see how this kind of pseudo-PVP is within the vision of Verant. I mean everything they have written about the subject is how they didn't want their game to be like UO.

Also Jeremy I think if you really thought about what you were saying you'd realize that the 'competitive EQ' that occurs on this server is beyond dumb. Aside from the utterly retarded tracking and batphoning, EQ is simply not designed for multiple competing raid forces in the same zone. If you clear you'll just get leapfrogged, so everyone tries to train away and sneak out the boss and it all comes down to who has the good monk/sk team and who can plausibly deny training the other squad.

One of the things that boggles my mind the most is that the staff are ok with the current raid scene. AFAIK Nilbog doesn't really like it, but he'd rather work on Velious; Rogean doesn't really like it, but he's busy with his job; but amazing Sirken and Ephi and the GM team actually approve of the current raid scene and that just boggles my mind.

inb4 'you just don't want to compete'

This is what bothers me most. Sirken has shown by his attitude towards things that he likes this kind of EQ. Ephi i really havent seen a stance on as far as i know. You would think GM's would want a civil game but apparently they grew up on servers were the hardcores rules the scene and thats how they think the game should be played.

[Nietche]

maybe the guilds should get together and see if its possible to work something out for the present time. no one is forcing anyone to train each other.

Tasslehof is not a good choice for "getting guilds together."

and sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire until the other sides are willing to come to the table and talk.

if you do not force them to the discussion table with your actions, why would they agree to anything? i know i surely would not.

Griefing like a certain FE monk does is not "actions." It's certainly not competition, which is the only thing that would bring any guild to the table.

VP was rotated between TMO and IB. This is because it was initially agreed upon, and then broken via a backstab. We agreed AGAIN to rotate mobs with IB, which was later broken again.

IB also woke the sleeper for kicks on eqmac. They'll do it here too. Unless Rogean decides to make VP/ST fully red, training is the only way to circumvent this kind of stupidity.

You people don't know what you're asking when you ask for "play nice policies." You really don't understand the kind of scum that VD/FE/IB really is (for the most part; there are some who aren't so bad), who will use these same policies to destroy the fun you think you would get as a result by, yes, waking the sleeper when Velious is released here.

Someone has the link to the thread on EQMAC on waking sleeper (Getsome: IB's infamous leader); I don't have the time to dig it up.

[radditsu]

To be fair. The devs have done a great deal more than I thought they would for the raiders. Fte shouts and extended windows prevent general poopsocking and promote competition. If a guild wanted to make another run at the top, It is a bit more geared towards that happening. Outside of VP of course.

[radditsu]

Tasslehof is not a good choice for "getting guilds together."



Griefing like a certain FE monk does is not "actions." It's certainly not competition, which is the only thing that would bring any guild to the table.



IB also woke the sleeper for kicks on eqmac. They'll do it here too. Unless Rogean decides to make VP/ST fully red, training is the only way to circumvent this kind of stupidity.

You people don't know what you're asking when you ask for "play nice policies." You really don't understand the kind of scum that VD/FE/IB really is (for the most part; there are some who aren't so bad), who will use these same policies to destroy the fun you think you would get as a result by, yes, waking the sleeper when Velious is released here.

Someone has the link to the thread on EQMAC on waking sleeper (Getsome: IB's infamous leader); I don't have the time to dig it up.

12 ish jerks with pop gear ,5 levels, and max AA, and mq2 heal chains is not the same as convincing 30 to 40 to kill very difficult warders for the era.

[Brut]

TBH training in VP to me always seemed like a silly kind of PVP. 3 classes get invulnerability and hugely overpowered weapons; the other classes get nothing and get to run around the entrance and try not to die. I suppose this is a lot of fun if you are an FD class, but it's REAL hard for me to see how this kind of pseudo-PVP is within the vision of Verant. I mean everything they have written about the subject is how they didn't want their game to be like UO.

This. Idiotic meta-pvp perfectly describes the whole thing.

It's like trying to play an FPS where all the weapons are banned. Some moron figures out he can kill people by shoving them off cliffsides and goes on to sit there 2years mastering the cliff-shoving-arts. Meanwhile anyone with a brain cell functioning in their head left to play a game where you can just shoot the enemies.


extended windows prevent general poopsocking and promote competition.

Tbh I recall there being 2-3 more guilds that you saw more frequently getting mobs prior to the window extensions. Poopsocking's dumb and all, but you can't really go claiming that the amount of competition has gone up due to the window extensions.

[radditsu]

This. Idiotic meta-pvp perfectly describes the whole thing.

It's like trying to play an FPS where all the weapons are banned. Some moron figures out he can kill people by shoving them off cliffsides and goes on to sit there 2years mastering the cliff-shoving-arts. Meanwhile anyone with a brain cell functioning in their head left to play a game where you can just shoot the enemies.

Better cliff shoving game: dark messiah of might and magic. Aka kick people off the cliff simulator.

[radditsu]

This. Idiotic meta-pvp perfectly describes the whole thing.

It's like trying to play an FPS where all the weapons are banned. Some moron figures out he can kill people by shoving them off cliffsides and goes on to sit there 2years mastering the cliff-shoving-arts. Meanwhile anyone with a brain cell functioning in their head left to play a game where you can just shoot the enemies.




Tbh I recall there being 2-3 more guilds that you saw more frequently getting mobs prior to the window extensions. Poopsocking's dumb and all, but you can't really go claiming that the amount of competition has gone up due to the window extensions.

That i attributed to burnout and attrition, and the whole IB situation and that whole deal.

Most of us have beaten kunark. We aren't psychotic enough to do the same thing over and over and over and over.

[Llodd]

why don't you pro trainers lobby to have it extended to *all* raid targets? I don't ever recall seeing such posts. Why is that? If you're going to claim it increases competition but never champion it except when people want to be rid of it, the only conclusion is that of an ulterior motive.

[quido]

I'm in favor of allowing training always!

[pasi]

I'm all for training provided it applies to all raid zones. My playtime would double if I could roleplay a neophyte of Veeshan protecting the sacred Temple from treasure hunters.

It would also make sense to make zones with permitted-training PvP as training is usually deemed more hardcore-PvP than player combat.

Always seemed weird to me to have training permitted without PvP enabled.

[Hitpoint]

I have read 21 pages of this thread and am no closer to understanding why training is allowed in VP. We have the following:

1. GM who says that training being allowed in VP is not based on live servers.
2. GM who says guilds should work something out between each other to prevent trains. (But I do not see this reasoning applied in any other raid zones.)
3. TMO members defending the rule because it benefits them with no real evidence or proper reasoning as to why it should be allowed.
4. Various other players who say training in vP is not classic, and want the rule removed so they can raid VP with mobilization being the only competition.
5. Two random people saying training was allowed (or happened anyway?) in VP on their respective servers.

I would ask for some proof of training being allowed or disallowed on live. But unfortunately proof is irrelevant, and so is every other opinion on what occurred during live, because Rogean said this rule has nothing to do with classic servers. So then why is it implemented here?

I don't like the rule. I think it is not classic (but again I have no proof other than what people say), I can't imagine it being fun, and it's certainly not legit competition. I get that TMO had to deal with trains while they were doing VP (and this may be the only reason the rules still exist in their current form), but that never should have been the case. The guilds that can raid VP already earned that right by killing Trakanon imo. If TMO wants to keep VP all to themselves then the competition should be at Trak, and inside VP as mobilization and pulling. If another guild manages to get enough trak kills over the course of a long enough period of time, then they should be able to compete like VP is any other zone. And not just get muscled out by a larger guild with more people who know how to train and can press FD.

[Handull]

You must have missed the FE boat when they went into VP, guess you didn't hear. They killed Druushk with the same rules implemented now. As far as dedication and motivation to stick it out and keep getting kills is another story. And the whole "they have more trainers then us" is complete bullshit. FE in there prime had a shit ton of them. Proof is in the pudding - skill over numbers.

confirmed, FE has always had more VP keyed toons than TMO.

[Loli Pops]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg6entGKQH1qzrviao1_400.gif

[Ella`Ella]

No sir prove that it wasn't. You made the poll

The only thing I gather from this post is that Alarti wakes up at ~ 9:15am

[radditsu]

These poll numbers look like some obama numbers. Keep it up!

[quido]

There was a time when the FE folks said "we'll beat you at your own game. We're getting better and will continue to improve and take dragons from you."

Now that Tasslehof is maxed out on gear outside of VP and at an impasse with further progress due to his guild falling apart, he wants to change the rules! I can't say I really blame him, I just think it's kind of pathetic. There was a time when the training rules were to TR/IB's advantage, not TMO's, but you didn't see us crying about it. You should do what we did - adapt and overcome, not set the bar lower so even groups with piss-poor coordination can get a piece.

The train wars we've had in VP have been some of the most fun I've had playing this game. A lot of you who have never experienced such a situation say "it doesn't take any skill to train someone," but you really have no idea what you're talking about. I think it's fascinating that something on the blue server can involve a more human vs human element. The ingenuity, the coordination, the ups and down - it's a bit more engaging than the rest of what we do.

[kotton05]

I like killing tmo and the occasional buyer of vp loots while in there. Few times I got a tracker. Now that rogues can be seen I can't wait to get back in there for an attempt.

[kotton05]

The train wars we've had in VP have been some of the most fun I've had playing this game. A lot of you who have never experienced such a situation say "it doesn't take any skill to train someone," but you really have no idea what you're talking about. I think it's fascinating that something on the blue server can involve a more human vs human element. The ingenuity, the coordination, the ups and down - it's a bit more engaging than the rest of what we do.

this^

[Cecily]

I like killing tmo and the occasional buyer of vp loots while in there. Few times I got a tracker. Now that rogues can be seen I can't wait to get back in there for an attempt.

You just wanna kill me :(

[Ele]

The train wars we've had in VP have been some of the most fun I've had playing this game. A lot of you who have never experienced such a situation say "it doesn't take any skill to train someone," but you really have no idea what you're talking about. I think it's fascinating that something on the blue server can involve a more human vs human element. The ingenuity, the coordination, the ups and down - it's a bit more engaging than the rest of what we do.


Then there are the other 20-50 people in the zone wanting to kill a dragon wasting 3-4 hours (a few times 8+ hours of training) of their evening dead or constantly camping in and out, while a half dozen people get their jollies.

[contemptor]

TBH training in VP to me always seemed like a silly kind of PVP. 3 classes get invulnerability and hugely overpowered weapons; the other classes get nothing and get to run around the entrance and try not to die. I suppose this is a lot of fun if you are an FD class, but it's REAL hard for me to see how this kind of pseudo-PVP is within the vision of Verant. I mean everything they have written about the subject is how they didn't want their game to be like UO.

Also Jeremy I think if you really thought about what you were saying you'd realize that the 'competitive EQ' that occurs on this server is beyond dumb. Aside from the utterly retarded tracking and batphoning, EQ is simply not designed for multiple competing raid forces in the same zone. If you clear you'll just get leapfrogged, so everyone tries to train away and sneak out the boss and it all comes down to who has the good monk/sk team and who can plausibly deny training the other squad.

One of the things that boggles my mind the most is that the staff are ok with the current raid scene. AFAIK Nilbog doesn't really like it, but he'd rather work on Velious; Rogean doesn't really like it, but he's busy with his job; but amazing Sirken and Ephi and the GM team actually approve of the current raid scene and that just boggles my mind.

inb4 'you just don't want to compete'
I agree with all of this. Unfortunately this thread occurs multiple times per year, and the staff and TMO leadership have made it clear it will not change.

[Splorf22]

Then there are the other 20-50 people in the zone wanting to kill a dragon wasting 3-4 hours (a few times 8+ hours of training) of their evening dead or constantly camping in and out, while a half dozen people get their jollies.

Ele hitting the nail on the head again. If we enabled pvp, a few of the monks in this thread might not feel like gods after getting dispelled, tashed, and rooted in front of their train a few times.

[kotton05]

Ele hitting the nail on the head again. If we enabled pvp, a few of the monks in this thread might not feel like gods after getting dispelled, tashed, and rooted in front of their train a few times.

the point of the trains is to get hit by them and proc aoe, so da idol at that point and hope for the best haha.

[Tiggles]

Remove training in VP six months after velious hits and move it to sleepers.

Then the server can have our Kunark Scraps.

[LordSterben]

Holy crap...forget all the other nonsense...I want the "non-fantasy names" rule enforced again! It ruins my immersion when everyone is named "Anulblaster" and "Bonghit." This isn't WoW, people...have some class! XD

[Tiggles]

Holy crap...forget all the other nonsense...I want the "non-fantasy names" rule enforced again! It ruins my immersion when everyone is named "Anulblaster" and "Bonghit." This isn't WoW, people...have some class! XD

Agreed also copyrighted names like Tasslehof should be removed as well.

[Cecily]

Would settle for just Tasselhof being removed.

[Alarti0001]

Then there are the other 20-50 people in the zone wanting to kill a dragon wasting 3-4 hours (a few times 8+ hours of training) of their evening dead or constantly camping in and out, while a half dozen people get their jollies.

so majority of raid mobs are set up for the majority of players.... seems fair....unless you hate minorities

[timhutton]

You'll have to do some research for the exact news post that implemented it, I'm sure that contains information. Or perhaps your fellow players will help. I'm not here to answer your question about why every policy exists, just to fix your misconceptions.

You're still comparing it to eqlive in the rest of your post. It's not an EQLive related policy. You should stop doing that.

I decided to be a helpful fellow player, but I cannot determine why such a decision was ever made. If anything, it feels like it was made behind closed doors, and the reason was never presented to the players.

It's entirely possible I am missing or overlooking something though, so in that case please show me any discussions I missed. I will layout what I've found.

The thread where VP was announced is located here:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52232

In this thread, a question concerning CSR within the zone is presented:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440112&postcount=22

The way the question is worded, it seems as if Rogean had prior conversations with Nilbog about this situation and that they were already leaning towards a no-CSR stance. A disclaimer was added to the post to clarify it was not official until stated so.

Over the next 15-20 pages people discussed VP, and whether CSR should or should not be allowed in the zone. Some notable highlights:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440143&postcount=30 - discussing SoW original intent and keys being soul-bound

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440151&postcount=32 - a prophetic post discussing possible ramifications

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440152&postcount=33 - Nilbog's stance

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440164&postcount=36 - at the time head-GM Amelindas thoughts

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440172&postcount=37 - another prophetic post?

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440360&postcount=61 - A discussion of the differences between "No CSR" and "No-pnp" much like this thread

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=441063&postcount=97 - TR Officer's opinion

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=450053&postcount=151 - post in support of ffa

After 10-15 pages of people discussing VP a decision is stated, however why is never given:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=468551&postcount=174

Now as far as actual patch notes go, I'm having serious difficulties finding them.

In this thread, it was announced that Red would go live november 18th:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53281

The thread for the launch does not include patch notes. Were they posted later? Does anybody have a link?:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54865

According to the VP announcement thread, VP was supposed to open the very same night that Red went live. The past 2 threads would indicate that the date for this was November 18th, and I cannot locate any patch notes for that date.

That leads me to believe that the only information as to why training is allowed in VP has to come from the thread where VP was announced, and aside from Rogean's original inquiries, and 10-15 pages of varying player opinion, no information (aside from the decision itself) was ever given.

I'm just as confused as Tassle, and I played during the time in question as well as just spent an hour researching this and I am honestly more confused about the original intent and why training/griefing are allowed than I was when I began.

[Ele]

so majority of raid mobs are set up for the majority of players.... seems fair....unless you hate minorities

I clicked "show post" for this? sigh

[Thulack]

Really TMO agreeing to any kind of rotation or fair play would be like the government vetoing a pay raise.

[Alarti0001]

I clicked "show post" for this? sigh

Derp...... when you can't think.... you can't reply.

[Tasslehofp99]

Agreed also copyrighted names like Tasslehof should be removed as well.

Aye, I've petitioned for a name change already.
You should as well since there is an NPC with the same name as your rogue in EQ.

[Tasslehofp99]

I decided to be a helpful fellow player, but I cannot determine why such a decision was ever made. If anything, it feels like it was made behind closed doors, and the reason was never presented to the players.

It's entirely possible I am missing or overlooking something though, so in that case please show me any discussions I missed. I will layout what I've found.

The thread where VP was announced is located here:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52232

In this thread, a question concerning CSR within the zone is presented:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440112&postcount=22

The way the question is worded, it seems as if Rogean had prior conversations with Nilbog about this situation and that they were already leaning towards a no-CSR stance. A disclaimer was added to the post to clarify it was not official until stated so.

Over the next 15-20 pages people discussed VP, and whether CSR should or should not be allowed in the zone. Some notable highlights:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440143&postcount=30 - discussing SoW original intent and keys being soul-bound

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440151&postcount=32 - a prophetic post discussing possible ramifications

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440152&postcount=33 - Nilbog's stance

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440164&postcount=36 - at the time head-GM Amelindas thoughts

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440172&postcount=37 - another prophetic post?

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=440360&postcount=61 - A discussion of the differences between "No CSR" and "No-pnp" much like this thread

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=441063&postcount=97 - TR Officer's opinion

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=450053&postcount=151 - post in support of ffa

After 10-15 pages of people discussing VP a decision is stated, however why is never given:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=468551&postcount=174

Now as far as actual patch notes go, I'm having serious difficulties finding them.

In this thread, it was announced that Red would go live november 18th:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53281

The thread for the launch does not include patch notes. Were they posted later? Does anybody have a link?:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54865

According to the VP announcement thread, VP was supposed to open the very same night that Red went live. The past 2 threads would indicate that the date for this was November 18th, and I cannot locate any patch notes for that date.

That leads me to believe that the only information as to why training is allowed in VP has to come from the thread where VP was announced, and aside from Rogean's original inquiries, and 10-15 pages of varying player opinion, no information (aside from the decision itself) was ever given.

I'm just as confused as Tassle, and I played during the time in question as well as just spent an hour researching this and I am honestly more confused about the original intent and why training/griefing are allowed than I was when I began.

Thanks, I also spent a few hours looking around for this information last night and wasn't able to come up with anything. My best guess is that any discussion which held any valuable information was probably had in the "Raiding guild Discussion" area? I'm not entirely sure but I do remember a time when that section of the forums was used regularly. Perhaps someone else knows?

[Tasslehofp99]

Remove training in VP six months after velious hits and move it to sleepers.

Then the server can have our Kunark Scraps.

Its nice that you think TMO calls the shots around here but this thread was made to gauge server opinion on the matter.

[Ele]

Derp...... when you can't think.... you can't reply.

When you are ready to make a coherent argument get back at me and pm me so I know to look for it.

[timhutton]

Thanks, I also spent a few hours looking around for this information last night and wasn't able to come up with anything. My best guess is that any discussion which held any valuable information was probably had in the "Raiding guild Discussion" area? I'm not entirely sure but I do remember a time when that section of the forums was used regularly. Perhaps someone else knows?

The raid guild discussion forum did not exist until a month later:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=57633

[Splorf22]

When you are ready to make a coherent argument get back at me and pm me so I know to look for it.

Alarti is a victim of the Dunning-Krueger effect. He is legitimately unaware that his posts oscillate between banal and incoherent.

[Enygma]

more people would play if rules were consistent. Means more donations. which means more server hardware. which means better server. It is only beneficial. If you want to be jerks, roll red.

I see over 1000 players online... either theres a lot of boxers because of the long weekend trying to eat all the double exp possible or...

The server is thriving.

[Enygma]

Its nice that you think TMO calls the shots around here but this thread was made to gauge server opinion on the matter.

yet since the beginning of time Tasslehoff has stated that TMO makes up the majority of the server and therefor this pole was made to gauge TMO opinion.

[radditsu]

I see over 1000 players online... either theres a lot of boxers because of the long weekend trying to eat all the double exp possible or...

The server is thriving.

Imagine a server server with 2k pop. Which was the range of a server on live.

Please tmo. Continue to be trolls and impede discussion like always.

[Alarti0001]

When you are ready to make a coherent argument get back at me and pm me so I know to look for it.

Lol you argued based on majority.... my response was using your logical construct. I am sorry it was lacking from the start.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti is a victim of the Dunning-Krueger effect. He is legitimately unaware that his posts oscillate between banal and incoherent.

Projection much?

[Enygma]

Imagine a server server with 2k pop. Which was the range of a server on live.

Please tmo. Continue to be trolls and impede discussion like always.

Imagine if expansions were released on at the proper time line... aka velious was released / kunark hadn't been out for 3 years... If you remember when kunark released we had a peak of over 1500 people iirc. Now imagine if in 9 months of that Velious released....

I bet p99 would surpass that population of a live server... given that there is only 1 server to play on instead of numerous servers to chose from if you were sad you couldn't get into the top guild and wanted to try your luck on another one / transfer servers etc.

[Vianna]

It went about like I thought it would. Listen guys the discussion isn't just VP and it isn't short term. Some of you guys can call people evil because of a guild tag and assume all day the server would be worse if you couldn't monopolize certain zones by training other people. It is rather self-serving to say "We are protecting the server by keeping other people away from content with trains". It is also self-serving to try to make it out as some type of competition that people should have to suffer through because mechanics in the raid system at the time weren't really ideal for the number of high end players on the server.

The argument for some is "It was like this on live". That is bull crap and the ones saying it know it is even before they type it. No one was killing all of VP in Kunark on live regularly. There definitely wasn't the amount of players keyed for VP on live in Kunark that are here. So no there was never 2 competing guilds in VP in Kunark where training each other was allowed. But again that is just looking at VP.

Their next defense for training is even more mind boggling. "Well if training isn't allowed in sleepers they will wake it". As opposed to what ? The same thing that is happening in VP now happening there ? You guys acting like overseers with trains so that the rest of the server can look at items that drop that your chars have....and you can then turn and say "See our guildies wouldn't have this loot if we didn't protect the server from vile other guilds, but rest assured if they weren't here you could get this loot too!!!".

EQ was always the world you made it...Within reason. Play nice policies were in place to combat griefing and training. While this is not live and there are different rules on this server and policies... That is one aspect that should be looked at and changed. Tracking mobs, Mobilizing for mobs, Racing to be the first to engage to have the chance to kill the mob.... That sounds like a good basis for competition without all the griefing and training. There really is no viable reason those should be allowed in the game at all if you want true competition. "But it's soo fun to kill people with Trains so we can get the loot yo" isn't really a viable reason either.

[Alarti0001]

It went about like I thought it would. Listen guys the discussion isn't just VP and it isn't short term. Some of you guys can call people evil because of a guild tag and assume all day the server would be worse if you couldn't monopolize certain zones by training other people.


I stopped here with your first mistake. You are more than invited to come into VP and beat us.

[radditsu]

Imagine if expansions were released on at the proper time line... aka velious was released / kunark hadn't been out for 3 years... If you remember when kunark released we had a peak of over 1500 people iirc. Now imagine if in 9 months of that Velious released....

I bet p99 would surpass that population of a live server... given that there is only 1 server to play on instead of numerous servers to chose from if you were sad you couldn't get into the top guild and wanted to try your luck on another one / transfer servers etc.


I agree completely. All the more reason to be civil unyil velious. Stagnation and bad blood is a cornerstone to the dilemma

[Vianna]

I stopped here with your first mistake. You are more than invited to come into VP and beat us.

No Alarti because the policies in place in VP on this server aren't viable to actual competition. It is basically who can train the most and last the longest before getting tired of training and logging out. That is not competition in any form. Despite what you may believe that is griefing until someone says "Ok I am tired of this" and leaves.

[Vianna]

I agree completely. All the more reason to be civil unyil velious. Stagnation and bad blood is a cornerstone to the dilemma

And being civil in Velious helps too. There is no reason for all this hate between people. Have a competition without the hard feelings.

[Alarti0001]

No Alarti because the policies in place in VP on this server aren't viable to actual competition. It is basically who can train the most and last the longest before getting tired of training and logging out. That is not competition in any form. Despite what you may believe that is griefing until someone says "Ok I am tired of this" and leaves.

You could try being sneaky, you could counter train, you can find cool spots for your raids... you can camp out a raid for 6-7 hours then log in and be quick... you can spawn wurms at strategic locations to impeded training.
Lots of options....

[Tasslehofp99]

You could try being sneaky, you could counter train, you can find cool spots for your raids... you can camp out a raid for 6-7 hours then log in and be quick... you can spawn wurms at strategic locations to impeded training.
Lots of options....

Not classic.
Training was against the rules on live.

[Vianna]

You could try being sneaky, you could counter train, you can find cool spots for your raids... you can camp out a raid for 6-7 hours then log in and be quick... you can spawn wurms at strategic locations to impeded training.
Lots of options....

Same thing "YOU can kill people to kill stuff!!". Sounds like you enjoy PVP "Derp" as you like to say. You have yet to show a single viable reason that training should be allowed anywhere for the sake of competition.

[xmonkx]

Not classic.
Training was against the rules on live.

Please prove that you could not train in VP in live for the 100th time. If not, stfu k thanks!

[radditsu]

Please prove that you could not train in VP in live for the 100th time. If not, stfu k thanks!

Povar. I was there. Can't do it. But that don't matter.