Class C loses mobs on every repop?

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

speaking of play styles and contradictions.

FE and IB and TMO came to agreement to not compete against each other in class C - camped out at different mobs to take down the most efficiently in order to ONLY compete against those guilds unwilling to compete (class R).

TMO and IB did not even show a raid force in the zone for trakanon. FE competed against BDA.

TMO and FE did not even show a raid force in the zone for severilous. IB got that uncontested.

IB and FE did not show a raid force in the zone for faydedar. TMO got that uncontested.

COuld go on and on about your agreements to NOT compete outside of VP, and then there is the total collusion to NOT compete in VP as well. Carebear stare: Hoshkar and Phara Dar taken out by combined raid force of FE/IB/TMO. The other mobs split up with no competition at all.

Tell us more about about how CONTRADICTORY your PLAYSTYLES are in comparison to class R rotating their 33% mobs?

So you were angry when "class c" guilds couldnt play nice together when the "class r" guilds were getting next to 0 mobs, and now that class c guilds played nice together AND class R guilds got mobs you're even angrier.

How does that make any sense at all?

[chu]

im sorry to interupt i just want to know what all ur definition of "uncontested" is in this context

[Clark]

Originally Posted by chu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im sorry to interupt i just want to know what all ur definition of "uncontested" is in this context

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Fysts]

Hey fellas, I very seldom take the time to jump into such discussions, but as I read this i would try to confer a little logic to the situation. Anyone who does not know me, I am fysts leader of Avatars of Discord. We are a Class-NR guild, as in Not Raiding. I am going to take a minute to break down what i perceive and please ask for responses of logic as I have zero prejudice in the matter.

Firstly I will point out Mob classifications and how i perceive them looking in from an outsider and maybe one day future raid leader.

1) Class-C. This is Competition spawn. Any guild/guilds may engage these mobs at any given time, with the restriction that if you kill this mob, you will move to Class-C

2) Class-R This is Rotation Set-up from my understanding with Class-R guilds.

3) Class-FFA This is Same as competition, except you can kill this mob and stay in your current Class.

So my logic would be this. Any Class-C guild should be entitled to kill any Class-C mob at any point in time. This should include respawns as its an open competition class, now if guilds want to work out deals, this should be acceptable, but known that another class-c guild does not have to honor it, or any class-r guild could kill said mob and move to class-c. I personally do not believe there should be any lockouts on these mobs, as it forces guilds to prioritize, not by mob count but by losing another mob to outmobilization.

Class-R is set to rotation, so they can freely engage any FFA mob without consequence because they know their mob will be saved for them. Therefore it creates no panic to rush to their held rotation mob, giving them the ability to mobilize for FFA targets. This in itself is a huge advantage as Class-C could lose their mob at any time they mobilize for a FFA mob.

Class-FFA can be engaged by any class, or any guild not belonging to a class so its the real competition set of mobs. I saw one suggestion to make a bag limit on Class-FFA to 1 mob on respawn. I personally feel this is the most logical, as it keeps a guild from trying to monopolize FFA targets. What it seems to me is Class-R is asking that Class-C be penalized for attempting to race for FFA targets, and forcing them to give up Class-C mobs if they do.

I realize you are saying Class-C will just work together and go for FFA mobs first, but as I pointed out the whole point of having FFA is to allow all Classes to compete on them, without penalty to their class. But in this raid rules current state, this is infact false. It leads to Class-C respawns not being 100 percent open to all Guilds, which is what the class-c mobs in my interpretation is suppose to be.

In conclusion I guess my logic to it is Class-C mobs should be able to be engaged and killed by any guild on the server, at any given time, regardless of what a guild has killed. This to me would represent Class-C mobs inherent properties. Under the current system a class-c mob could infact be off limits to all class-c guilds except 1 or even none, thus diminishing its anyone can kill quality.

I am confused why Rogean chose to force Class-c to be lockouted of their own class of mobs, but maybe it was just an oversight. But listening to both sides I believe both have valid arguments, but i think the solution is in capping the FFA mobs on respawn, and not the class-c competition mobs.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Pheer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you were angry when "class c" guilds couldnt play nice together when the "class r" guilds were getting next to 0 mobs, and now that class c guilds played nice together AND class R guilds got mobs you're even angrier.

How does that make any sense at all?

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

From what I have read from raid discussion is They only rotated VP due to fact they almost trained each other 2 times going for different targets due to cross training to pull named. Neither wanted to eat a 30 day ban, so they decided for a full VP repop instead of training each other, they would rotate it, and compete on the respawns that came one at a time. Now as for the outside world mobs, I believe each guild just tried to capitalize on what was smartest for the guild, sometimes if you know a guild is shooting for trak, it is smarter to shoot for another raid target then take the chance of competing and rushing and wiping. Wiping on a server respawn cost so much valuable time, it can cripple any chance you have of getting any mobs. Now on the outside mobs I am just speculating, by how i would strategize my own guild, if i knew tmo was shooting for vs and fe shooting for trak, I give you my assurance i would shoot for sev or inny. Thats just smart imo.

[Troubled]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

pixel denial is what drove your competition.

That's still the name of the game. Class C has worked out agreements, as vehemently as they fought each other before, to the point of fraps and suspensions, to make sure that now between them they get every possible pixel. That's why the imposed bag limits need to stay.

[Fysts]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

speaking of play styles and contradictions.

FE and IB and TMO came to agreement to not compete against each other in class C - camped out at different mobs to take down the most efficiently in order to ONLY compete against those guilds unwilling to compete (class R).

TMO and IB did not even show a raid force in the zone for trakanon. FE competed against BDA.

TMO and FE did not even show a raid force in the zone for severilous. IB got that uncontested.

IB and FE did not show a raid force in the zone for faydedar. TMO got that uncontested.

COuld go on and on about your agreements to NOT compete outside of VP, and then there is the total collusion to NOT compete in VP as well. Carebear stare: Hoshkar and Phara Dar taken out by combined raid force of FE/IB/TMO. The other mobs split up with no competition at all.

Tell us more about about how CONTRADICTORY your PLAYSTYLES are in comparison to class R rotating their 33% mobs?

All those mobs you listed were FFA mobs, which means any Class-R could have competed and should have, but chose not to. I applaud BDA if they competed with FE on Trak, and had they gave me a shout out i woulda threw my guild weight to help, though it wouldnt be much, because they atleast embraced the idea of FFA mobs being competitve. It sounds to me like your more upset the Class-C guilds used their heads and strategy to kill FFA mobs, to me its just sad that no Class-R guilds besides BDA even tried to compete, are you seriously mad the competitoin class guilds raced for FFA mobs, when that is what they are intended for, then you have the audacity to call them care bears, its laughable. The sad thing is under the new no poopsock clause every class-r guild now has equal footing to engage FFA mobs on respawns, maybe they should have strategized to pick a FFA mob and TRY to compete. Sorry you get no sympathy from me, because the class-C guilds actually used strategy instead of brute force against each other. Personally I will say this, "Well played Class-C"

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Fysts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

From what I have read from raid discussion is They only rotated VP due to fact they almost trained each other 2 times going for different targets due to cross training to pull named. Neither wanted to eat a 30 day ban, so they decided for a full VP repop instead of training each other, they would rotate it, and compete on the respawns that came one at a time. Now as for the outside world mobs, I believe each guild just tried to capitalize on what was smartest for the guild, sometimes if you know a guild is shooting for trak, it is smarter to shoot for another raid target then take the chance of competing and rushing and wiping. Wiping on a server respawn cost so much valuable time, it can cripple any chance you have of getting any mobs. Now on the outside mobs I am just speculating, by how i would strategize my own guild, if i knew tmo was shooting for vs and fe shooting for trak, I give you my assurance i would shoot for sev or inny. Thats just smart imo.

1. VP... It's depressing that the strategy on this server 99% of the time is train shit and Zerg down the dragon. Most of the challenge of EQ is meant to come from the environment, in that regard it means the add/trash clears. But alas, 14 years later ain't nobody got time for that.

2. Yea I understand it is "smarter" or rather, you are more likely to get a single kill by going to where your competition isn't. But... Those who were championing the importance of competition went on and on about how fun it is and how without it they wouldn't even want to raid. In the end however they went for the path of least resistance and didn't compete on the open world dragons, disproving their previous arguments.

[Pheer]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

Maybe because it was the first full repop since the changes and none of the class C guilds wanted to eat like a month long raid suspension right out the gate? TMO/FE/IB could either agree to a solution in VP that gives everybody mob kills and ensures no bullshit goes down the very first day of the new raid policy, or they could frantically rush around to mobs accidentally training eachother multiple times in the process and then argue with gms in petitions, on the forums, and amongst eachother for a week about whether said trains were accidental or intentional.

VP was desynching with all 3 guilds present and would have been a complete shit sandwich clusterfuck without some kind of agreement in place. I dont get why you guys seem to think theres some kind of secret class C illuminati new world order type shit going on behind closed doors to try to deny as many pixels as possible, its pretty obvious why things were done that way.