Best 4 person all caster/priest group [Archive] - Page 19

Troxx

12-30-2023, 07:24 PM

I'm kind of curious if there's any group situation where a 60 shaman adds more DPS to a ench-ench-cleric trio than a mage. I think maybe, but am highly skeptical of it being generally true.

There really isn’t one. The whole point of the early pages was that 2x ench charm pets bring such insane dmg that mobs are gonna die fast. The rest was what else does each respective class bring. Even if you were fighting mobs with sufficient health to allow the shaman to capitalize on dots (rare occasion with 2 hasted quadding charm pets), the shaman will be left in the dust with respect to dps.

-Both have malo, which is probably THE BEST extra a 4th person could bring.
-The shaman brings heals, but you won’t need them.
-The shaman can slow, but both enchanters can do that too
-The shaman has a weak pet that can theoretically tank in an emergency, but the mage pet is better.
-the shaman can buff the pets, but mages have summon haste mask
-mages can CoTH and dispense mod rod’s for emergencies… but you probably don’t need them

Between shaman and mage, mage wins handily. At steady state you bring a stout backup tank for emergencies, malo, burn potential for emergencies, and a few other minor perks.

The real answer here is a 3rd ench to fill out the 4th spot.

A strong case could be made for mage or necro as was discussed on the first few pages
A case could be made for druid (ports/snares/PotG other utility)
A case could be made for wizards (planar ports, mobility, evac, or emergency dps burn)

Shaman? Not really. What they do bring to the table is redundant to what the group already has.

Mostly this thread was DSM trying to make a case that shamans can dps like mages.

They can’t.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-30-2023, 08:21 PM

Mostly this thread was DSM trying to make a case that shamans can dps like mages.

Completely untrue. You can go back and read the thread. I really don't know why you think lying will change the post history.

At one point I mentioned Shaman DPS because if the group really wants the Shaman to DPS they can. Based on the DPS numbers I've given vs. what other people have given, a Shaman can produce DPS close to a non-Epic Mage.

You simply twisted my words and blew it out of proportion because you weren't winning the argument via logic and facts. This is a common tactic of yours, you troll people who disagree with you.

Groups generally don't have the Shaman DPS because:

The whole point of the early pages was that 2x ench charm pets bring such insane dmg that mobs are gonna die fast.

Usually groups want the Shaman's utility, and they have enough DPS already.

A Shaman can open up more camps that level 60's would want to do. That is why I would take a Shaman over a Mage any day. There are some camps Enchanters cannot do, or the camp is made much easier by having a Shaman. DPS has diminishing returns, and level 60's aren't going to be doing as much mass killing of mobs. They will be targeting named mobs to kill. With 350 DPS you'll kill Fungi King in 50 seconds. With 270 DPS you'll be killing Fungi King in 65 seconds. That 15 second faster kill isn't going to get you any more Fungi King kills in a single session. You would need to kill Fungi King for 120 hours straight to get an extra spawn from that.

Duik

12-30-2023, 08:54 PM

Just let the Wookie win.
Also, if ya not killing FungiKing for 120hrs straight ya just aint socking.

Troxx

12-30-2023, 10:35 PM

stuff

https://media2.giphy.com/media/9UdtW61KfA5dWBnfB6/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952tb2p8t4jybcim6wvs8d6003fp00d3 dks6ntn6lux&ep=v1_videos_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=v

Troxx

12-31-2023, 12:16 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 12:34 AM

Thread summary:

Pages 1-4: Actual productive discussion - everything relevant was said in this area

Page 5: First time DSM brings up epic dotting 5 mobs beside the actual group to do 80dps

Pages 6-453: Hilarity and insanity

We are over FOUR THOUSAND AND FIVE HUNDRED posts into DSM arguing with the universe complete with a veritable community college -D grade dissertation’s worth of napkin math and YouTube videos showing a shaman solo mobs … completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Best.

Thread.

Ever.

:p

Most of this thread was just trolling by yourself and other posters. That is unfortunately the actual thread summary.

This thread just shows who the troll posters are, which includes yourself. I am not sure why you keep bumping it. It just makes you look bad.

Duik

12-31-2023, 03:51 AM

Bump.

Gloomlord

12-31-2023, 05:54 AM

Most of this thread was just trolling by yourself and other posters. That is unfortunately the actual thread summary.

This thread just shows who the troll posters are, which includes yourself. I am not sure why you keep bumping it. It just makes you look bad.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/cJRcMyUAiMcAAAAd/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-ah-shit.gif

fortior

12-31-2023, 10:56 AM

Hell yeah let's gooooooo

Infectious

12-31-2023, 12:15 PM

Completely untrue. You can go back and read the thread. I really don't know why you think lying will change the post history.

At one point I mentioned Shaman DPS because if the group really wants the Shaman to DPS they can. Based on the DPS numbers I've given vs. what other people have given, a Shaman can produce DPS close to a non-Epic Mage.

You simply twisted my words and blew it out of proportion because you weren't winning the argument via logic and facts. This is a common tactic of yours, you troll people who disagree with you.

Groups generally don't have the Shaman DPS because:

Usually groups want the Shaman's utility, and they have enough DPS already.

A Shaman can open up more camps that level 60's would want to do. That is why I would take a Shaman over a Mage any day. There are some camps Enchanters cannot do, or the camp is made much easier by having a Shaman. DPS has diminishing returns, and level 60's aren't going to be doing as much mass killing of mobs. They will be targeting named mobs to kill. With 350 DPS you'll kill Fungi King in 50 seconds. With 270 DPS you'll be killing Fungi King in 65 seconds. That 15 second faster kill isn't going to get you any more Fungi King kills in a single session. You would need to kill Fungi King for 120 hours straight to get an extra spawn from that.

Case closed. He clearly showed proof.

Toxigen

12-31-2023, 12:28 PM

500 pages before 2024 lets go

Toxigen

12-31-2023, 12:31 PM

Troxx

12-31-2023, 12:58 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 01:08 PM

the obv answer is enc / enc / enc / cleric, but the more interesting one is if you can only have 1 of each class for a 4 man

enc / cleric are given, what do you fill in the rest with? mage is prob one of them

As I said on page one, Cleric/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer. It's the Monk/Shaman/Enchanter power trio with a Cleric stapled on. You'll be able to do more camps with this group. The Mage doesn't bring much at level 60 when you're farming named mobs. Any four man group is already going to XP really fast, so it's not really necessary to bring the Mage for a bit faster leveling.

Crede

12-31-2023, 02:46 PM

That’s easy imo and was suggested on page 1 I think

Cleric ench mage necro

This setup brings everything other than ports. Potential for 2 charms. If not fighting around undead 2 backup tanks. You have FD, snare backup heals, emergency rez. All pets have haste mask. You have both tash and malo.

Legit powerhouse team

Yea this was my original suggestion. I think cleric/enc/enc/wiz is more lucrative overall, but repeating classes are lame and cleric/enc/mage/necro would just be a blast. Swapping in a shaman for the mage just adds so much unneeded utility. 3 healers/4 rooters is extreme overkill. Necro heals can easily back up cleric. 100% sure shaman just clicks jbb in this group.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 04:18 PM

Yea this was my original suggestion. I think cleric/enc/enc/wiz is more lucrative overall, but repeating classes are lame and cleric/enc/mage/necro would just be a blast. Swapping in a shaman for the mage just adds so much unneeded utility. 3 healers/4 rooters is extreme overkill. Necro heals can easily back up cleric. 100% sure shaman just clicks jbb in this group.

There are a lot of things the Shaman will be doing besides casting JBB:

1. Healing + Regenerating the Necro so they can use their best lich spell. This frees up the Cleric to not have to worry about that. Also saves the Cleric mana to do stuns, nukes, etc. if needed.

2. The Shaman is slowing instead of the Enchanter. This saves the Enchanter mana, and also frees up a spell slot, which is premium for an Enchanter. This allows the Enchanter to focus on controlling their pets and CCing mobs. Having 2 slowers also means that you can both slow if you are fighting a mob with high Magic Resistance. Better chance of landing the initial slow.

3. Applying DoTs and Pet damage as necessary if the group wants extra DPS.

4. Maloing the mob so spells land easier. Shaman Malo is better than Mage Malo.

5. Rooting monsters as needed, which can also free up a spell slot for the Cleric, Enchanter and/or the Necromancer.

6. Tanking mobs instead of the Enchanter pet. This allows the Enchanter pet to do more damage since it can be behind the mob. It can even backstab if it has the capability. Shamans are much tankier than Mage pets when they have Torpor. Having a player tank instead of a pet is also easier to control, as mobs prefer to attack players over pets. It's also easier for a player to reposition as necessary while tanking.

7. The Cleric and Necromancer can heal the Shaman as needed if their mana pools are full. This allows the Shaman to continue rooting, slowing, casting DoTs, etc. A Shaman's ability to cannibalize pairs well with other healing classes. This can reduce group downtime because you are sharing resources better.

8. Buffing the group and the pet. The pet will do more damage with STR buffs and Avatar. Players will be more likely to survive with FoS, STA, and Aegolism.

The Shaman offers a lot more than a Mage. Utility is generally better than DPS in small groups, because it's easier to wipe when you have less people. That is why Enchanter/Cleric is a strong duo. They have a ton of utility for survival, while also happening to have good DPS with the Enchanter pet. You are already leveling quickly with a 4 man group, so you don't really need a Mage's DPS while leveling. At 60 when you are killing named mobs the DPS isn't necessary either. The player leveling a Shaman will get a lot more out of having a 60 Torpor Shaman than a 60 Mage as well. The Mage gets the worst level 60 character in this group after it inevitably breaks up.

Troxx

12-31-2023, 05:53 PM

Rules for this discussion were simple:

-group must have 4 players (no more, no less)
-all players must be casters
-debate the best setup

There are a lot of things the Shaman will be doing besides casting JBB

Not likely ... unless that other thing is chain-casting your best actual DD nuke.

1. Healing + Regenerating the Necro so they can use their best lich spell. This frees up the Cleric to not have to worry about that. Also saves the Cleric mana to do stuns, nukes, etc. if needed.

The necro can heal itself just fine. Have you ever played a necro? I can't count how many times I was in groups all the way up to 60 where I had no regen and needed no heals from any outside party. Necros can self heal themselves so well that they can donate EXTRA health to others while also covering their lich.

Ever played a necro? Regen is nice but those that have played one (and played one well) know that it isn't needed.

2. The Shaman is slowing instead of the Enchanter. This saves the Enchanter mana, and also frees up a spell slot, which is premium for an Enchanter. This allows the Enchanter to focus on controlling their pets and CCing mobs. Having 2 slowers also means that you can both slow if you are fighting a mob with high Magic Resistance. Better chance of landing the initial slow.

Enchanter has slow. Having said that, with charm pet + necro pet (summon or charm) + mage pet (summon) mobs are going to die fast enough you might as well not bother slowing at all. For the truly hard encounters that need it - enchanter has that covered.

Heck, the enchanter will likely have their pet equipped with a Swarmcaller (50% slow proc) just for the fun of it.

3. Applying DoTs and Pet damage as necessary if the group wants extra DPS.

Mobs are going to die somewhere between your 2nd cast dot never actually landing or maybe 1-2 ticks in. Applying dots in a high dps group is not smart or efficient. You'd be better off nuking. As we have established, shaman pet is poor dps - a weak dot at best. It doesn't quad and is much lower summon level than other pets in question.

4. Maloing the mob so spells land easier. Shaman Malo is better than Mage Malo.

Mage can malo also. Mage and shaman Malosini is identical. Mage unresistable mala is -35 ... shaman unresistable is -45.

No big difference.

5. Rooting monsters as needed, which can also free up a spell slot for the Cleric, Enchanter and/or the Necromancer.

Cleric has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Necro has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Enchanter has root. Enchanter also has ... mez!

You think an all caster group really needs 4 F'n roots?

6. Tanking mobs instead of the Enchanter pet. This allows the Enchanter pet to do more damage since it can be behind the mob. It can even backstab if it has the capability. Shamans are much tankier than Mage pets when they have Torpor. Having a player tank instead of a pet is also easier to control, as mobs prefer to attack players over pets. It's also easier for a player to reposition as necessary while tanking.

Why on gods green earth do you think anybody would want to tank the mob as a shaman? The necro pet, mage pet, and enchanter pet will do a lot better job than you would.

Cleric healing power is so ... overpowered ... in this context that they'll spend most of their time not casting heals at all. It's basically lobbing a complete heal on the massive HP pet once in a blue moon and saving mana reserves for that oh-shit moment when the charm breaks. If the enchanter is any good at all, they won't be taking much damage anyways on breaks. And when charm does break, you have 2 beefy summon pets on the mob that honestly tank better than most tank player characters out there.

7. The Cleric and Necromancer can heal the Shaman as needed if their mana pools are full. This allows the Shaman to continue rooting, slowing, casting DoTs, etc. A Shaman's ability to cannibalize pairs well with other healing classes. This can reduce group downtime because you are sharing resources better.

So the cleric and necromancer can heal the shaman so the shaman can canni harder, not torpor, and still not do good dps? Why would they want to bother. They can both heal themselves and heal others just fine without you.

8. Buffing the group and the pet. The pet will do more damage with STR buffs and Avatar. Players will be more likely to survive with FoS, STA, and Aegolism.

This is actually a true statement. It is the one thing shamans actually do provide value with. The question is whether or not it's even worth the otherwise dead-weight 4th character. My vote is nah ... especially if you're giving up haste masks.

Focus doesn't add 405hp to the casters in this group. They each have their own shielding line which doesn't stack with focus. Focus is better - but these casters aren't giving up much by not having this line of buffs available. Even clerics have a self buff for this.

Stamina? Stamina returns on casters are not good.

Beyond that, there's a whole 59 levels before shamans can cast Focus or Avatar ... and unless you're an end-game raid character the shaman is not going to have a reagent free Avatar to cast.

Thats 26pp every 6 minutes.

The player leveling a Shaman will get a lot more out of having a 60 Torpor Shaman than a 60 Mage as well. The Mage gets the worst level 60 character in this group after it inevitably breaks up.

Totally beyond the scope of this "for fun" exercise in theorycrafting. For the purpose of this thread you have 4 people, all playing casters, all playing together and without any outside help and only able to tackle what a 4 person group of all casters can.

So lets break this down again.

Shaman brings to the table:
-heals (not needed)
-root (you've already got 3 who can cast it)
-slows (redundant and mostly not needed to begin with)
-buffs: helpful no doubt, but not necessary.
-low dps from the shaman
-low-tier dps from pet
-pet that will off-tank or emergency tank worse than a ranger
-the same malosini as mage
-a marginally better unresistable malo at level 60

Mage brings to the table:
-Quality dps at baseline from pet
-pet that will off-tank or emergency tank better than most actual player tanks
-steady state nuke dps
-Actual dps burn potential when the situation calls for it
-Dmg shield (the best in the game) quietly in the background adding even more dps
-COTH
-Mod rods
-Pet haste masks
-the same malosini as shaman
-a marginally worse unresistable 'malo' at level 60

If all classes had to be different classes and you really didn't want to bring a mage, the group would be far better off with a wizard or druid than a shaman. At least then you'd have ports and utility. If the group already has a cleric and enchanter ... does this mean that adding a shaman is literally the worst option of all the casters available? Certainly smells that way.

So sorry you lost this argument DSM. You lost it about 449 pages ago.

Jimjam

12-31-2023, 06:10 PM

Slowing mobs and losing mage DS is a big -dps.

Vivitron

12-31-2023, 06:28 PM

I'd probably prefer the shaman with the cleric/ench/necro but it's close enough to be whatever. For the shaman, a second slower is a real benefit often enough, regen on the necro is legit nice till they get some high end gear, and an extra snap heal isn't bad on an ugly charm break. For the mage, single target damage and COTH are both nice.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 06:29 PM

The necro can heal itself just fine. Have you ever played a necro? I can't count how many times I was in groups all the way up to 60 where I had no regen and needed no heals from any outside party. Necros can self heal themselves so well that they can donate EXTRA health to others while also covering their lich.

Ever played a necro? Regen is nice but those that have played one (and played one well) know that it isn't needed.

Saving HP and Mana on the Necro means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact.

Enchanter has slow. Having said that, with charm pet + necro pet (summon or charm) + mage pet (summon) mobs are going to die fast enough you might as well not bother slowing at all. For the truly hard encounters that need it - enchanter has that covered.

Heck, the enchanter will likely have their pet equipped with a Swarmcaller (50% slow proc) just for the fun of it.

Saving Mana and a spell slot on the Enchanter means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact. If the Enchanter isn't casting Slow, they can be casting something else simultaneously with the Shaman. Plus you get 2x Slowers for high magic resist mobs.

Mobs are going to die somewhere between your 2nd cast dot never actually landing or maybe 1-2 ticks in. Applying dots in a high dps group is not smart or efficient. You'd be better off nuking. As we have established, shaman pet is poor dps - a weak dot at best. It doesn't quad and is much lower summon level than other pets in question.

Mage can malo also. Mage and shaman Malosini is identical. Mage unresistable mala is -35 ... shaman unresistable is -45.

No big difference.

As you keep forgetting, you can root rot mobs in a group for faster killing. And yes, you can nuke as well if you want. A Mage who nukes is going to be meditating more often. This averages out their DPS over time to whatever their limit on mana is. A shaman's ability to cannibalize allows them more flexibility when the group is considering the best use of their resources. A Shaman's malo is still better. It's not a large gap I agree, but it's better.

Cleric has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Necro has 3 minute paralyzing earth root. Enchanter has root. Enchanter also has ... mez!

You think an all caster group really needs 4 F'n roots?

Having more people with root means that each caster's spell bar can be more flexible. Don't need 4 roots? Take root off the Shaman's bar so they can cast another DoT. Or take root off the Cleric's bar for another Stun, etc. That is one benefit of overlapping spells, you get to optimize spell slots better across the group.

Why on gods green earth do you think anybody would want to tank the mob as a shaman? The necro pet, mage pet, and enchanter pet will do a lot better job than you would.

Clearly you haven't played a Torpor Shaman. They are one of the best tanks without discs in the game. That is why they can solo so well with Torpor + Slow. You don't solo things like 6+ WW Dragons without being a great tank. A Player is much easier to control than a pet when tanking too. This frees up the pet classes to focus on other things. When the pets are behind the mob, they do more damage and can backstab. This is really basic stuff. Claiming a Necro/Mage pet can tank better than a Shaman is a really silly thing to say. I don't see Mage/Necro pets solo tanking 6+ WW Dragons.

Rules for this discussion were simple:
Totally beyond the scope of this "for fun" exercise in theorycrafting. For the purpose of this thread you have 4 people, all playing casters, all playing together and without any outside help and only able to tackle what a 4 person group of all casters can.

You don't get to unilaterally decide this just because it helps your argument lol. There was no such restriction from OP. Please stop doing this, it just makes you look desperate.

Cleric healing power is so ... overpowered ... in this context that they'll spend most of their time not casting heals at all. It's basically lobbing a complete heal on the massive HP pet once in a blue moon and saving mana reserves for that oh-shit moment when the charm breaks. If the enchanter is any good at all, they won't be taking much damage anyways on breaks. And when charm does break, you have 2 beefy summon pets on the mob that honestly tank better than most tank player characters out there.

So the cleric and necromancer can heal the shaman so the shaman can canni harder, not torpor, and still not do good dps? Why would they want to bother. They can both heal themselves and heal others just fine without you.

If your cleric/Necro is at FM all the time, they can channel their mana into the Shaman for more spells like DoTs, slows, roots, buffs, etc. This is because the Shaman can cannibalize the HP from the heals. You can't do that with a Mage. You get way more flexibility of resource management with a Shaman, which reduces downtime of the group and increases your power.

Mage is generally just offering DPS, malo, and CoTH for a select few occasions. Plenty of people have CoTH bots, so if you just need CoTH use one of your party member's CoTH bots. There was never a restriction in this thread about no bot characters, and OP himself said it was fine. A 4 man group is killing mobs fast enough as it is, you don't need the Mage while leveling. And at level 60 a Mage's DPS is even less necessary.

It is very easy to rebut all of your arguments. It really seems like you haven't done much grouping with Shamans, or don't understand the game mechanics very well.

I'd probably prefer the shaman with the cleric/ench/necro but it's close enough to be whatever. For the shaman, a second slower is a real benefit often enough, regen on the necro is legit nice till they get some high end gear, and an extra snap heal isn't bad on an ugly charm break. For the mage, single target damage and COTH are both nice.

Agreed.

Troxx

12-31-2023, 06:52 PM

Saving HP and Mana on the Necro means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact.

Lol like what else is the necro going to be doing otherwise? Mobs are dying fast so any spell cast dps they do with their mana (of which they will have plenty with lich) has the potential to heal.

You've never played a necro to a competent level have you?

Saving Mana and a spell slot on the Enchanter means they can do more things. It's really a simple concept, I don't see why you are trying to deny this basic fact. If the Enchanter isn't casting Slow, they can be casting something else simultaneously with the Shaman. Plus you get 2x Slowers for high magic resist mobs.

Enchanter probably won't be doing much slowing at all. Mobs will die fast.

High MR mobs? Who cares. By the time you're at that level your charm pet is gonna have like 7-8k hp. Not hard to heal that.

As you keep forgetting, you can root rot mobs in a group for faster killing. And yes, you can nuke as well if you want. A Mage who nukes is going to be meditating more often. This averages out their DPS over time to whatever their limit on mana is. A shaman's ability to cannibalize allows them more flexibility when the group is considering the best use of their resources. A Shaman's malo is still better. It's not a large gap I agree, but it's better.

Lol back to root rotting in a group with a mezzer.

Grade_A ass-hattery.

Having more people with root means that each caster's spell bar can be more flexible. Don't need 4 roots? Take root off the Shaman's bar so they can cast another DoT. Or take root off the Cleric's bar for another Stun, etc. That is one benefit of overlapping spells, you get to optimize spell slots better across the group.

Group already has 3 roots. They don't want a dead weight just to save 1 spell slot across 3 other casters.

Clearly you haven't played a Torpor Shaman. They are one of the best tanks without discs in the game. That is why they can solo so well with Torpor + Slow. You don't solo things like 6+ WW Dragons without being a great tank. A Player is much easier to control than a pet when tanking too. This frees up the pet classes to focus on other things. When the pets are behind the mob, they do more damage and can backstab. This is really basic stuff. Claiming a Necro/Mage pet can tank better than a Shaman is a really silly thing to say. I don't see Mage/Necro pets solo tanking 6+ WW Dragons.

I have a 60 shaman. Just because the 60 shaman can tank with torpor doesn't mean they should when there are 3 other candidates (any of the pets) that will do it better.

You keep talking about "freeing up the others" like they aren't going to be half-bored with ench/cleric/necro/mage.

They don't need to be freed up by dead weight.

You don't get to unilaterally decide this just because it helps your argument lol. There was no such restriction from OP. Please stop doing this, it just makes you look desperate.

I didn't make this thread. This thread is what is is.

If your cleric/Necro is at FM all the time, they can channel their mana into the Shaman for more spells like DoTs, slows, roots, buffs, etc. This is because the Shaman can cannibalize the HP from the heals. You can't do that with a Mage. You get way more flexibility of resource management with a Shaman, which reduces downtime of the group and increases your power.

NOBODY WANTS TO WASTE TIME OR MANA HEALING A SHAMAN SO THEY CAN PUMP OUT MORE CRAP DPS.

This is laughable at best.

You remain the captain of the failboat.

Troxx

12-31-2023, 06:54 PM

45 more pages to go before midnight!

Penish

12-31-2023, 06:54 PM

DSM prob has a list of random points he wants to debate to the death on. Here’s a summary of his nonsense so far:

-There’s “math” to objectively say that ogres are the best shaman race.
-Shamans are a dps class and can out dps mages
-People can’t be mad about players voluntarily awakening the sleeper
-Shaman pets are tanks
-JBB is a min max item for shamans
-Clerics arent needed for 4 man content
-shamans offer more use to enchanters than clerics do
-shamans net the same pp per hour as an enchanter
-you should consider spamming taunt as +1 aggro every 6 seconds is better than nothing while ignoring the fact that there is a superior way to use taunt
-150 str on a monk is good enough
-you are trolling if you are not interested in my opinion
-iksar int is easy to max. You don’t need hp gear.
-you cannot claim ad populum yet my experience as a sk is good enough for this discussion

I’ll continue to monitor and track this so that people are aware of all these theories. I’m sure there’s some more I missed.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 07:05 PM

Lol like what else is the necro going to be doing otherwise? Mobs are dying fast so any spell cast dps they do with their mana (of which they will have plenty with lich) has the potential to heal.

You've never played a necro to a competent level have you?

Are you suggesting that a Necro could do nothing with more Mana and HP if they had access to it? The only person who clearly hasn't played a Necro is yourself. You might want to do some basic research on the class.

Enchanter probably won't be doing much slowing at all. Mobs will die fast.

High MR mobs? Who cares. By the time you're at that level your charm pet is gonna have like 7-8k hp. Not hard to heal that.

Enchanters will be waiting for their pet to break. Allowing the Enchanter to fully focus on that means charm breaks will be less ugly. Enchanters will also be CCing if something goes wrong. Again, very simple stuff that anybody who has played this game should know.

Lol back to root rotting in a group with a mezzer.

Grade_A ass-hattery.

Necros and Shamans can root/rot just fine solo without the need for Enchanter CC. Claiming that root/rotting in a group is somehow different or more dangerous just means you don't understand root/rotting very well, or basic game mechanics. Grouping doesn't change how the game mechanics work.

Group already has 3 roots. They don't want a dead weight just to save 1 spell slot across 3 other casters.

Spell slots are very important, I am not sure why you think otherwise. Very simple stuff as I said.

I have a 60 shaman. Just because the 60 shaman can tank with torpor doesn't mean they should when there are 3 other candidates (any of the pets) that will do it better.

You keep talking about "freeing up the others" like they aren't going to be half-bored with ench/cleric/necro/mage.

They don't need to be freed up by dead weight.

You need to play your 60 Shaman more then if you think a Necro/Mage pet can out-tank a Shaman lol. I'd love to see you try to solo a 6+ WW Dragon with your Mage.

I didn't make this thread.

Exactly. Stop making up rules that OP didn't make in a silly attempt to constrain the argument in ways that help you win. It just looks desperate. OP didn't say you couldn't use bots. OP didn't say you couldn't discuss the merits of leveling one class over another in terms of their usefulness after the group breaks up.

NOBODY WANTS TO WASTE TIME OR MANA HEALING A SHAMAN SO THEY CAN PUMP OUT MORE CRAP DPS.

Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to learn about game mechanics is irrelevant to the topic at hand. If your group is at FM, funneling their mana into the Shaman is more useful than just sitting at 100%. You get more DoTs, Nukes, roots, buffs, debuffs, etc. without the need to meditate.

You can play how you like, but please stop assuming other people must play the same way you do. You seem to want to play the game sub-optimally. That is fine, but not everyone else has to play sub-optimally like yourself.

Nonsense...

Be careful when playing in game with Penish. He will purposely lie about his intentions to play with you when grouping. He will try to record video of you playing poorly and use it against you in an argument. He won't even finish grouping with you, he will just leave, completely wasting your time. There's no reason to trust what a proven liar says.

Troxx

12-31-2023, 07:09 PM

Are you suggesting that a Necro could do nothing with more Mana and HP if they had access to it? The only person who clearly hasn't played a Necro is yourself. You might want to do some basic research on the class.

Riddle me this ...

When you're in a group that is putting out enough massive dps that xp group mobs are going to die in 20-30 seconds, what else is the necro going to do other than manage his pet and lob nukes/taps? Of course there will be circumstances where you want to focus on CC or other critical things ... but certainly not waste mana on dot spells.

The whole point here is that the necromancer does not want or need your help keeping himself healed. He can do that in spades. Regen is cute and always nice to have but entirely not needed.

I have played a necromancer.

Mine is level 60. I've main healed groups of 3 melees without any priestly help and no outside regen.

What level is yours?

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 07:15 PM

Riddle me this ...

When you're in a group that is putting out enough massive dps that xp group mobs are going to die in 20-30 seconds, what else is the necro going to do other than manage his pet and lob nukes/taps? Of course there will be circumstances where you want to focus on CC or other critical things ... but certainly not waste mana on dot spells.

The whole point here is that the necromancer does not want or need your help keeping himself healed. He can do that in spades. Regen is cute and always nice to have but entirely not needed.

I have played a necromancer.

Mine is level 60.

What level is yours?

Lobbing nukes and taps is certainly something you could do with more HP/Mana. I am not sure why you are arguing that Necromancers can do nothing with more HP/Mana lol. It sounds like you answered your own question.

You seem to forget that a Shaman is enhancing the DPS of the other party members, which means the DPS gap between having a Shaman and a Mage isn't as big as you think. The Shaman is enabling the party members and pets to deal more DPS, and the party members in turn are also enabling the Shaman to do more DPS because they can increase how much HP the Shaman can cannibalize.

You are also getting the massive utility that a Shaman provides.

Troxx

12-31-2023, 07:34 PM

Lobbing nukes and taps is certainly something you could do with more HP/Mana. I am not sure why you are arguing that Necromancers can do nothing with more HP/Mana lol. It sounds like you answered your own question.

You stated:

1. Healing + Regenerating the Necro so they can use their best lich spell. This frees up the Cleric to not have to worry about that. Also saves the Cleric mana to do stuns, nukes, etc. if needed.

I pointed out that necros can heal themselves just fine ... to which you replied:

Are you suggesting that a Necro could do nothing with more Mana and HP if they had access to it? The only person who clearly hasn't played a Necro is yourself. You might want to do some basic research on the class.

To which I pointed out that what we are doing with our mana involves stealing hp from mobs ... you know ... to heal ourselves. Doing what a necromancer does and would do in a group like this is going to cover their lich losses in spades.

The Shaman is enabling the party members and pets to deal more DPS, and the party members in turn are also enabling the Shaman to do more DPS because they can increase how much HP the Shaman can cannibalize.

None of these classes need anything from you to enable them. It's not like these are melees who need your haste or want your buffs. All the critical jobs are covered between the cleric and the enchanter.

-The cleric isn't going to be needing to heal the necromancer.
-Having your heals there adds no value beyond redundancy.
-I've played a necromancer; you apparently havent.

Checkmate?

Checkmate.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 07:41 PM

You stated:

I pointed out that necros can heal themselves just fine ... to which you replied:

To which I pointed out that what we are doing with our mana involves stealing hp from mobs ... you know ... to heal ourselves. Doing what a necromancer does and would do in a group like this is going to cover their lich losses in spades.

-The cleric isn't going to be needing to heal the necromancer.
-Having your heals there adds no value beyond redundancy.
-I've played a necromancer; you apparently havent.

Checkmate?

Checkmate.

Claiming "checkmate" without basis just makes you look even more desperate.

The only person who has lost this debate is yourself, when you claimed that Necromancers can do nothing with extra HP/Mana if they were given it. For a level 60 Necromancer, you don't know your class very well it seems.

Duik

12-31-2023, 09:04 PM

If these battles are lasting 40 - 50 secs then a necros dots are of little use or at best very inefficient. Necro dd are also very inefficient. A necro healing itself is both healing and damaging a mob (with a nice -200 mod).
Necro finds himself mana rich? Twitch that mana efficient dd burn mage. Too many charm breaks/adds? Twitch that chanter fucker.

Same for shammy dots. Take ages to come to fruition. So mana inefficient.
Torpor/slow tanking sounds fun (only ay 60...) if that is the only option. While tanking you have a chance of interrupts when doing all da uva utility stuff you mention? <- is a question btw.

Surely malo then slow while throwaway charm pet tanks is a better option? Then why have a shammy at all, just mage pet adds dps + ds on charm pet with pet haste masks sit back and relax.

Much of a mages (consitent) damage is from pet, pretty much set and forget (unless charm break) so mage has time to med/malo/burst dd/modrod or whatever is needed.
Remember, short fights require burst rather than dot damage.
Soloing anything is whatever is most mana efficient no matter how long it takes to kill (i know i know faster than mob regen but dont nitpick). So a nec/sham can dot/pet down a mob down while a mage will pet/malo if mob is under control, but will burn that fucker if need be.

I am sure this is wrong in some convoluted factual math provable way so post on, posters!

Gloomlord

12-31-2023, 09:13 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 09:15 PM

If these battles are lasting 40 - 50 secs then a necros dots are of little use or at best very inefficient. Necro dd are also very inefficient. A necro healing itself is both healing and damaging a mob (with a nice -200 mod).

This is incorrect. Let me give you a simple example:

Necromancer Lifetaps are less efficient than Necromancer DD's/Dot's.

Touch of Night (Lifetap) does 720 damage for 405 mana. This is 1.777 Damage Per Mana.

Conglaciation of Bone (DD) does 540 damage for 210 mana. This is 2.571 Damage Per Mana.

Envenomed bolt (DoT) does 1278 damage over 48 seconds for 320 mana. This is basically 4 Damage per Mana. Even if you lose two ticks, Envenomed Bolt is still doing 3 Damage Per Mana.

If the Shaman is Torporing the Necromancer, the Necromancer is able to use their more efficient damage spells instead of lifetaps to maintain their health pool. Demi-Lich damages you for 48 HP per tick. That means the Shaman only needs to Torpor the Necromancer every 3 minutes or so. In this scenario, the Shaman is only spending 6 seconds and 180 mana every 3 minutes to potentially double the Necromancers Damage Per Mana. More if Envenomed Bolt gets all of it's ticks in.

He thinks you should dump all starting points into STA as Rogue, and INT as Shadowknight. Why? Because end game Velious gear is super attainable to most players.

As usual, you twist my words because you are a troll. I never claimed BiS gear is easily attainable. I urge you to find a quote of me saying that. I said that if you want to Min/Max, your eventual goal is getting to level 60 with BiS gear. This is because that is what Min/Maxing implies in the context of P99.

Min/Maxing a character you don't plan on leveling past 40 doesn't really make sense. You basically lose any definition of what Min/Maxing means if you can assign any arbitrary goal to the idea of Min/Maxing. You could "Min/Max" a character for vendor prices, in which case you would put starting points into CHA. But most people wouldn't understand what you mean by "Min/Maxing" if that is your arbitrary goal. You would need to explain to people that your idea of "Min/Maxing" is getting the best vendor prices. People won't assume you mean you want to maximize vendor prices when you simply say you are "Min/Maxing". That isn't the default definition of Min/Maxing in the context of P99.

Gloomlord

12-31-2023, 10:01 PM

Toxigen

12-31-2023, 10:13 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 10:17 PM

Yes, DSM, Everyone's a troll who disagrees with you.

If you remember correctly, we told you that min-maxing shouldn't be the goal of most people, and thus STR is indeed the better choice.

Just piss off already...

I am not sure why you think that because "we told you" something, that means you must be correct. I am not sure who "we" is, or why you think "we" is correct.

I say that if you think that you will ever want to reach 60 and raid with a character, go the Min/Max route. That is the safest choice, because Everquest is a long game. I myself wasn't planning on reaching 60 or raiding, but over the years I changed my mind. I am glad I went the Min/Max route because of this.

I only recommend going STR for starting stats if you are starting your first character on a server, or doing a Solo Self Found run. If it is your first character on a server, it is probably a farming character, and Solo Self Found runs are constrained to soloing.

If you are 100% sure your character will never reach 60, then starting stats don't matter. I doubt most people are 100% sure of this, which is why I say the default path should be Min/Max.

EDIT: Apologies, I thought you were misquoting me again. You do it often enough since 80% of your posts are simply insults and trolling.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 10:20 PM

necro heal is like the most efficient spell in the game outside of slow

hope this helps

the answer is enc / necro / mage / cleric for 95% of the game for this quad, sub shaman in for mage on that last 5% and you know this hypothetical berg group has a coth bot anyway

We are talking about Lifetaps. A Necro cannot Shadowbond themselves. Lifetaps aren't very efficient in terms of life per mana, and DoT's/DD's are more mana efficient for damage. That is why healing a Necromancer allows them to do more Damage per Mana. They aren't relying on their less efficient Lifetaps.

I am glad you agree that the Shaman is better than the Mage in the endgame, which is my point. I don't recommend using a Mage for slightly faster leveling. The point of leveling is to get to 60 and farm endgame. If your group peters out at level 40, it doesn't matter what classes you picked. Leveling to 40 is super easy with any 4 man group.

Toxigen

12-31-2023, 10:23 PM

tap dat ass

meow

Duik

12-31-2023, 11:36 PM

So we are ignoring the factual fact (hehe) that lifetaps deal damage AND heal caster for a net total 2x dmg done?
Really?
If so...

Ok then. Wookie wins.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 11:53 PM

So we are ignoring the factual fact (hehe) that lifetaps deal damage AND heal caster for a net total 2x dmg done?
Really?
If so...

Ok then. Wookie wins.

Yes. Lifetaps are less efficient in terms of Damage Per Mana. For the low cost of 6 seconds and 180 mana every 3 minutes or so, the Shaman can basically remove the need for Necromancers to cast Lifetaps at all, except in an emergency where they need to combat heal. This effectively doubles the Necromancer's Damage Per Mana, and they heal all damage from Demi-Lich.

I am not sure why you think the Necromancer is gaining any benefit from Lifetaps in a group when they can get healed by the Shaman for basically nothing.

Duik

12-31-2023, 11:56 PM

We.
Didnt.
Say.
We.
Even.
Wanted.
A.
Shammy.
In.
The.
First.
Place.
So.
Your.
Point.
Is.
Moot.

DeathsSilkyMist

12-31-2023, 11:58 PM

We.
Didnt.
Say.
We.
Even.
Wanted.
A.
Shammy.
In.
The.
First.
Place.
So.
Your.
Point.
Is.
Moot.

I am not sure why this is relevant to the topic at hand. I could just say the same thing with Mages, and we would be at an impasse. This isn't an argument, it is an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 12:01 AM

Meow

Duik

01-01-2024, 12:13 AM

Admit lifetaps arent just dmg and we can talk. And by damaging the mob AND healing myself (as a necro) im value adding.
Canni gives the sham mana.
Lich gives the necro mana. Twitching gives OTHERS mana.
Lich then, by the transitive quality gives others mana and remember we in a group.
You as the sham can buff well. That is a granted. But like others have said a charmed, torch wielding quading hasted beast of a pet would get minimal adds from ya buffs.

Necro has technically mana on tap (lolocaust) for all. An actual useful pet. And the group would be free of a napkin mathhead spouting factual facts that he is superior to a mage as dps with 5 mobs root parked and epic dotting/managing them all while torporing/utilitying/rerooting and healing on charm breaks.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 12:17 AM

Admit lifetaps arent just dmg and we can talk. And by damaging the mob AND healing myself (as a necro) im not value adding.

I never said Lifetaps were only damage. I am not sure where you think you read that. Please quote me.

Healing the Necromancer via Torpor simply removes the need for Necromancers to heal via Lifetaps. Lifetaps are factually less mana efficient than DD's/DoT's in terms of damage. Lifetaps are less mana efficient specifically because of the healing component.

Lifetaps are obviously great when you are soloing, or you need a quick heal in an emergency. In a group with a healer you can do more damage by using your more mana efficient DD's/DoT's, and let the Shaman heal your Demi Lich/Shadowbond damage for basically no cost.

Toxigen

01-01-2024, 12:28 AM

100k plat on blue to the elf that can find the jutebox ST scumbag Falling Down in German video

Infectious

01-01-2024, 12:35 AM

I never said Lifetaps were only damage. I am not sure where you think you read that. Please quote me.

Healing the Necromancer via Torpor simply removes the need for Necromancers to heal via Lifetaps, which are factually less mana efficient than DD's/DoT's in terms of damage. They are less mana efficient specifically because of the healing component.

Lifetaps are obviously great when you are soloing. In a group with a healer you can do more damage by using your more mana efficient DD's/DoT's, and let the Shaman heal your Demi Lich/Shadowbond damage for basically no cost.

All good and valid points. Don't let this gang of naysayers try to bully you out of your math. It's right there in the equations.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 12:37 AM

All good and valid points. Don't let this gang of naysayers try to bully you out of your math. It's right there in the equations.

Indeed! Glad we agree.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 01:00 AM

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/2c/13/ef2c133e8c8d257ca8e0d91652d5c491.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 01:05 AM

Troxx is admitting he has lost the debate via silly gif. Again. Thank you for conceding. I am glad to see you learned something about your level 60 Necromancer that you apparently didn't know before!

Duik

01-01-2024, 01:45 AM

@DSM (Don't Say Mage)
You mention a lifetap at 405 mana and 720dam. Thats 1.777 efficiency!
That would be true if it was just damage.
It does 720 heal as well so i propose 1440 damheal @ 3.555 efficiency. But whatever.

Given a choice, if no clr id slum it with a shm.
I love me a wiz but a mag seems to offer more in this scenario. With a mag (malo) id go a druid (especially if animal charms) instead of a shm especialy pre 60 or no torp.
Lets face it, group of 4 played well will drill holes in any group content.
The difference will be the quality of the banter.
Condom Brand!

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 03:18 AM

Lets face it, group of 4 played well will drill holes in any group content.

Agreed!

You mention a lifetap at 405 mana and 720dam. Thats 1.777 efficiency!
That would be true if it was just damage.
It does 720 heal as well so i propose 1440 damheal @ 3.555 efficiency. But whatever.

You are correct that you get a total of 3.555 mana efficiency when combining the damage and the heal, assuming you have lost 720+ HP. But if you don't need the healing, then you get nothing from the healing portion of the spell. This is because the Shaman is already healing you basically for free. It is a similar concept to casting Lifetap at 100% HP. In that scenario you are only dealing the damage, while not benefiting at all from the healing. Your Lifetap is a 1.777 damage per mana DD when you don't need the healing.

That is why it is better to swap to your more mana efficient DD's/DoT's in a group with a healer. You get more damage per mana because you are relying on the healer to keep you healthy instead of your Lifetaps. Obviously there are some emergency scenarios where Lifetap is still useful, but ideally your group isn't making a habit of letting the mobs pound on the Necromancer.

Duik

01-01-2024, 04:03 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 04:15 AM

The life lost on a necro is lich and heals to others (when we have a mage to mod rod us) and not a sham healing. Im assuming the "free heals" are torpor? If so not everyone will be lvl60 or even get it.
Sure, if im not injured im not tapping. If also you assume the necro needs your heals why say taps only work if necro injured. Ya cant have it both ways.
Anywho rage on Delusional Scenario Manipulator!

Necromancers lose life to Lich and Shadowbond (Necromancer Heal), this is correct.

The Necromancer doesn't need to use Lifetap to heal the damage taken from Lich and Shadowbond if you have a healer in the party. Just let the healer do their job and heal you on occasion.

Then the Necromancer can focus on using their more mana efficient DoT's/DD's, which increases your group's DPS at no loss to the Necromancer. There is no reason to Lifetap in normal circumstances if you can get healed by your party. Lifetap is just a less efficient DD spell at that point. It's still useful in emergency situations, but ideally your group learns how to not get into those situations.

Duik

01-01-2024, 05:54 AM

I thort u was tanking?
And slowing.
And torporing whoever needs it.
And root rotting 5 (five) mobs.
And?
You sure you dont wanna just like solo instead?
Its like ya brain is stuck in solo mode and you just cant stand to let players in your group just play or something.
They just cant understand the math like me mom.
But mom!
You sound like Sheldon Cooper. Except no one here lives with you so you can set the thermostat at whatever you want. But ya still wont happy.
I doubt whether many here would group long enough with you to even allow you prove your theories.

fortior

01-01-2024, 07:54 AM

Lol no way

fortior

01-01-2024, 07:54 AM

WE're so back

Troxx

01-01-2024, 11:10 AM

You are correct that you get a total of 3.555 mana efficiency when combining the damage and the heal, assuming you have lost 720+ HP. But if you don't need the healing, then you get nothing from the healing portion of the spell.

If you don't have a dead-weight shaman as the 4th player rationalizing the need for their presence by the necromancer needing healing ... you don't get nothing from those spells at all.

The necromancer DOES NOT need your heals to manage their hp. Never has, never will.

That is why it is better to swap to your more mana efficient DD's/DoT's in a group with a healer. You get more damage per mana because you are relying on the healer to keep you healthy instead of your Lifetaps.

How many times do we have to tell you that mana efficient dots in this group just will not work. Mobs will be dying long before any of that efficiency kicks in ... or frankly before you could get your 2nd or 3rd dot loaded to begin with.

You keep harping on letting the shaman heal the necro so they can use efficient spells out one side of your mouth while out of the other side of your mouth recommending the necromancer choose their spell casts about as inefficiently as possible.

Repeat after me: In a group with 1-2 charm pets and 1-2 summon pets (depending on presence of undead) ... nobody in their right mind will be casting dots. They will be nuking.

There is no reason to Lifetap in normal circumstances if you can get healed by your party. Lifetap is just a less efficient DD spell at that point. It's still useful in emergency situations, but ideally your group learns how to not get into those situations.

You clearly have never played a necromancer ... like ever. Necros have mana coming out of their ears just as much as shamans do. Mana is never the issue ... like ever. Who cares if you blow it on an inefficient lifetap (be it dot tap or direct tap). You are already regenerating it faster than you will likely be capable of nuking it away.

Necros should never lifetap under normal circumstances? L o' Fucking_L

Add that to the growing list of DSM'isms.

The beauty of the necromancer class is they are fully self sufficient. They don't really need your help. They are so good at more than covering their losses that they can basically infinitely heal themselves AND keep a nice recourse heal on another person as long as mobs exist to tap. On my necro in some groups I kept my 2 highest recourse heals loaded so that I could keep 2 rolling on 2 different targets at once all while healing myself.

And remember, inefficient though those taps may be - those taps + necro pet dps will far surpass the dps potential of a fucking shaman.

My prediction came true:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3668127&postcount=17

Infectious

01-01-2024, 12:07 PM

If you don't have a dead-weight shaman as the 4th player rationalizing the need for their presence by the necromancer needing healing ... you don't get nothing from those spells at all.

The necromancer DOES NOT need your heals to manage their hp. Never has, never will.

How many times do we have to tell you that mana efficient dots in this group just will not work. Mobs will be dying long before any of that efficiency kicks in ... or frankly before you could get your 2nd or 3rd dot loaded to begin with.

You keep harping on letting the shaman heal the necro so they can use efficient spells out one side of your mouth while out of the other side of your mouth recommending the necromancer choose their spell casts about as inefficiently as possible.

Repeat after me: In a group with 1-2 charm pets and 1-2 summon pets (depending on presence of undead) ... nobody in their right mind will be casting dots. They will be nuking.

You clearly have never played a necromancer ... like ever. Necros have mana coming out of their ears just as much as shamans do. Mana is never the issue ... like ever. Who cares if you blow it on an inefficient lifetap (be it dot tap or direct tap). You are already regenerating it faster than you will likely be capable of nuking it away.

Necros should never lifetap under normal circumstances? L o' Fucking_L

Add that to the growing list of DSM'isms.

The beauty of the necromancer class is they are fully self sufficient. They don't really need your help. They are so good at more than covering their losses that they can basically infinitely heal themselves AND keep a nice recourse heal on another person as long as mobs exist to tap. On my necro in some groups I kept my 2 highest recourse heals loaded so that I could keep 2 rolling on 2 different targets at once all while healing myself.

And remember, inefficient though those taps may be - those taps + necro pet dps will far surpass the dps potential of a fucking shaman.

My prediction came true:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3668127&postcount=17

Why are you engaging with a retard? It's pretty obvious you invite the Shaman, to heal the necro, so the necro can undead DD got damnit! If their isn't undead in your zone? Your wrong damnit!

Troxx

01-01-2024, 12:35 PM

Why are you engaging with a retard? It's pretty obvious you invite the Shaman, to heal the necro, so the necro can undead DD got damnit! If their isn't undead in your zone? Your wrong damnit!

For shits and giggles?

:D

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 12:52 PM

If you don't have a dead-weight shaman as the 4th player rationalizing the need for their presence by the necromancer needing healing ... you don't get nothing from those spells at all.

The necromancer DOES NOT need your heals to manage their hp. Never has, never will.

How many times do we have to tell you that mana efficient dots in this group just will not work. Mobs will be dying long before any of that efficiency kicks in ... or frankly before you could get your 2nd or 3rd dot loaded to begin with.

You keep harping on letting the shaman heal the necro so they can use efficient spells out one side of your mouth while out of the other side of your mouth recommending the necromancer choose their spell casts about as inefficiently as possible.

Repeat after me: In a group with 1-2 charm pets and 1-2 summon pets (depending on presence of undead) ... nobody in their right mind will be casting dots. They will be nuking.

You clearly have never played a necromancer ... like ever. Necros have mana coming out of their ears just as much as shamans do. Mana is never the issue ... like ever. Who cares if you blow it on an inefficient lifetap (be it dot tap or direct tap). You are already regenerating it faster than you will likely be capable of nuking it away.

Necros should never lifetap under normal circumstances? L o' Fucking_L

Add that to the growing list of DSM'isms.

The beauty of the necromancer class is they are fully self sufficient. They don't really need your help. They are so good at more than covering their losses that they can basically infinitely heal themselves AND keep a nice recourse heal on another person as long as mobs exist to tap. On my necro in some groups I kept my 2 highest recourse heals loaded so that I could keep 2 rolling on 2 different targets at once all while healing myself.

And remember, inefficient though those taps may be - those taps + necro pet dps will far surpass the dps potential of a fucking shaman.

My prediction came true:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3668127&postcount=17

You leveled a Necro and a Shaman and still know so little about the classes and the game. It is baffling to be honest. You seem to be too stubborn to learn anything about your class or the game.

You can't even understand basic concepts like damage per mana, DoT damage, mana management, and healing a Necromancer.

The only talking out of both sides of the mouth going on here is from yourself. You want a Mage for more DPS, while asking the Necromancer to deal less damage just because you don't want to be healed or use your better damage spells.

Jimjam

01-01-2024, 01:07 PM

Which caster has best melee? That will be the answer for best damage per mana. Don’t forget to med between swings.

Vivitron

01-01-2024, 02:22 PM

Which caster has best melee? That will be the answer for best damage per mana. Don’t forget to med between swings.

I think at BIS int casters are all equal with Staff of the Silent Star. But if you want to med between swings with that you're realistically going to need to stay slowed, so I'm awarding a point to DSM.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 02:23 PM

You leveled a Necro and a Shaman and still know so little about the classes and the game. It is baffling to be honest.

You've leveled a shaman and a SK and think you know everything about every other class in the game. It's baffling how some of the basic concepts of this game go right over your head. It is furthermore hilarious that you have the audacity to lecture those who have actually played the class on the mechanics of said class.

You can't even understand basic concepts like damage per mana, DoT damage, mana management, and healing a Necromancer.

If you bothered to level a necro properly solo and in groups and came back and read your input on this thread ... you might begin to understand just how foolish you are. Necro dots are pointless in groups unless you're fighting things with astronomically high hp in a relatively low dps group. You'd blow a huge wad of mana with nothing much to show for it. The really good ones cost a heft7 amount of mana and do a hefty amount of damage - over a long period of time.

Necro dots are quite fantastic when soloing. Very efficient. Very hard hitting.

In groups? You'll spend 2-3x the mana to do 25% of the damage vs just nuking/tapping.

The only "dot" other than maybe a low level snare as needed that I ever use in groups is this line:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Vexing_Mordinia

Not for the damage, but for the tap heal over time component that will give me a fat wad of health over time, even when the mob dies long before it reaches its conclusion. It's a nice alternative to direct taps due to the increased heal potential ... especially when there aren't always mobs in camp to directly tap but you need to keep the heals rolling on those around you.

The only talking out of both sides of the mouth going on here is from yourself. You want a Mage for more DPS, while asking the Necromancer to deal less damage just because you don't want to be healed or use your better damage spells.

A necro isn't really sacrificing much damage or mana by tossing a lifetap to cover their own losses. The only other alternatives are their DD spells which, while more efficient, aren't exactly more "umph" in the DPS department.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Touch_of_Night

One of those worked into your spamming of DDs every time your lich leaves you at a deficit of 720hp is not going to put a dent in your mana pool with lich regen rolling 24/7.

--------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------

DSM ... you suffer from a superiority complex. That's dangerous when you're not only ignorant but also an autistic fella. Autism typically involves concrete lines of thought that are less adaptive and abstract. This paired with a mediocre IQ and superiority complex is a hilarious combination to debate with. You make a fool of yourself in every "DSM thread".

Unfortunately for you and the community at large (people having to read your bad information and bad advice) - you actually have very little experience playing anything other than the 2 goons you've got. You're fucking clueless.

My characters:

60 war
60 pal
60 shaman
60 druid
60 cleric
60 mage
60 necro
60 bard
60 monk
55 ranger

And I play them all exceptionally well. Only thing I haven't gotten around to playing on p99 is SK, Wiz, Rog, and Ench.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 02:32 PM

You've leveled a shaman and a SK and think you know everything about every other class in the game. It's baffling how some of the basic concepts of this game go right over your head. It is furthermore hilarious that you have the audacity to lecture those who have actually played the class on the mechanics of said class.

My characters:

60 war
60 pal
60 shaman
60 druid
60 cleric
60 mage
60 necro
60 bard
60 monk
55 ranger

And I play them all exceptionally well.

Incorrect. I don't think I know everything about the game. That is simply projection and a strawman. The only person claiming they know everything is yourself, because you think leveling characters means you know the class well. Argument from authority fallacy at it's finest.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe leveling so many characters means you know less about each class, because you spend less time on each? Leveling a class and understanding a class are two separate things. You can get power leveled to 60 without really playing the class at all.

That's dangerous when you're not only ignorant but also an autistic fella.

Please stop using autism as an insult, losing arguments isn't an excuse for this. You lost this argument when you claimed that Necromancers cannot use extra HP or Mana lol.

If you bothered to level a necro properly solo and in groups and came back and read your input on this thread ... you might begin to understand just how foolish you are. Necro dots are pointless in groups unless you're fighting things with astronomically high hp in a relatively low dps group. You'd blow a huge wad of mana with nothing much to show for it. The really good ones cost a heft7 amount of mana and do a hefty amount of damage - over a long period of time.

Necro dots are quite fantastic when soloing. Very efficient. Very hard hitting.

In groups? You'll spend 2-3x the mana to do 25% of the damage vs just nuking/tapping.

Again, you don't understand the basic concepts of damage and DoTing if you think this. If a mob dies in 30 seconds, Envenomed Bolt still does more damage for less mana than Touch of Night, your best Lifetap.

Envenomed Bolt on a mob for 30 seconds is 146 damage x 5 ticks + 110 instant damage = 830 damage for 320 mana. Touch of Night is 720 damage for 405 mana. Where are you getting this 2-3x mana to do 25% of the damage nonsense?

Do you even look at the details of your spells?

Take your own advice and learn to stop acting superior when you clearly have more to learn. You aren't even able to look at the wiki to realize you are wrong. You type nonsense that a child could disprove with a quick google search. You don't need a level 60 Necromancer to look at the wiki.

Vivitron

01-01-2024, 02:34 PM

DSM is straight up right about ebolt though; if you're sure you'll get 4 ticks out of it it's better dpm than taps and if you think you'll likely get 5-6 it's better than nukes. That's something I didn't know (and tbh my necro's evocation is low so it's extra useful for me till I fix that.)

I can't imagine relying on a torp instead of casting BoD/VM if I'm tossing heals on a necro, but I absolutely love having regen on my 54 necro. It's a great quality of life improvement and decent efficiency bump.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 03:05 PM

Envenomed Bolt on a mob for 30 seconds is 146 damage x 5 ticks + 110 instant damage = 830 damage for 320 mana. Touch of Night is 720 damage for 405 mana. Where are you getting this 2-3x mana to do 25% of the damage nonsense?.

Last I checked EB has a 6.1 sec cast time. If you cast it right when the fight starts you’ll get 3 ticks out of it on average, not 5.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 03:08 PM

Last I checked EB has a 6.1 sec cast time. If you cast it right when the fight starts you’ll get 3 ticks out of it on average, not 5.

Lol you really cannot admit when you are wrong. You are grasping at staws by trying to claim you will always get 3 ticks or less. You do this a lot, where you try to force the scenario into unrealism to try and win.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 03:23 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 03:25 PM

No, I just don’t neglect the time it actually costs to cast a spell on fast fights. If it’s dead in 30 seconds you won’t get 30 seconds of it unless you’re literally casting and landing it before the mob hits camp.

Hope that helps.

In groups? You'll spend 2-3x the mana to do 25% of the damage vs just nuking/tapping

Are you able to admit you were wrong here, and just pulled these numbers out of your ass? Even with your unrealistic scenario of assuming Ebolt will always only tick 3 times, that is 548 damage for 320 mana, which is 1.71 damage per mana. Slightly worse than Touch of Night, but a farcry from "2-3x mana for 25% of the damage" lol. If you are even sometimes getting 4+ ticks out of EBolt, you are doing better than using Touch of Night. 4 ticks of EBolt is 2.16 damage per mana. The average between 1.71 and 2.16 is 1.935, which is better than Touch of Night at 1.7777.

fortior

01-01-2024, 03:57 PM

Using low tick DoTs like the poison line is fine, the muscle DoT line is 2nd best, other ones I wouldn't bother with. Lifetaps have a chunky -resist mod which is nice against higher level mobs. These details don't actually matter though, the damage issue has already been solved by the enchanter in the group.

Enc/clr/wiz/necro for ports, DS, FD pulling, would take a uber geared monk over the necro if that were allowed though. For a unique class group that is. Other answer is still gonna be enc/enc/clr/wiz. This group will have whacked a whole continent of nameds before your DaP arrives at the druid ring you had to run to

Toxigen

01-01-2024, 04:16 PM

Enc/clr/wiz/necro for ports, DS, FD pulling, would take a uber geared monk over the necro if that were allowed though. For a unique class group that is. Other answer is still gonna be enc/enc/clr/wiz. This group will have whacked a whole continent of nameds before your DaP arrives at the druid ring you had to run to

this

/thread happy new year

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 04:29 PM

Using low tick DoTs like the poison line is fine.

Agreed!

Enc/clr/wiz/necro for ports, DS, FD pulling, would take a uber geared monk over the necro if that were allowed though. For a unique class group that is. Other answer is still gonna be enc/enc/clr/wiz. This group will have whacked a whole continent of nameds before your DaP arrives at the druid ring you had to run to

I'd take a Shaman over a Cleric in these scenarios. The idea of the Wizard is you can teleport group members around the world. Shamans will solo much better than the Cleric. You could have the Necro/Enchanter, Shaman, and Enchanter camping 3 different things at the same time, with the Wizard doing whatever. The Shaman can duo with the Enchanter when duoing is needed for slightly harder camps. The Necro or a pocket cleric is just fine for reses.

Duik

01-01-2024, 05:43 PM

Just go and solo ffs. You know you want to.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 06:04 PM

Are you able to admit you were wrong here, and just pulled these numbers out of your ass? Even with your unrealistic scenario of assuming Ebolt will always only tick 3 times, that is 548 damage for 320 mana, which is 1.71 damage per mana. Slightly worse than Touch of Night, but a farcry from "2-3x mana for 25% of the damage" lol. If you are even sometimes getting 4+ ticks out of EBolt, you are doing better than using Touch of Night. 4 ticks of EBolt is 2.16 damage per mana. The average between 1.71 and 2.16 is 1.935, which is better than Touch of Night at 1.7777.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough. I was referring to talking loading mobs up with the best dots.

I do find it amusing that you are splitting hairs on the mana efficiency of 2.16 vs 1.71 on a class with lich as if that difference in efficiency is a fraction of the difference between the dps of a mage (direct via nuking and pet and indirect via Dmg shield) lacking off and the much lower dps of a shaman trying to hard.

Remember, you also advocated (yesterday) for the cleric and necro healing the shaman so they can canni harder to still fail at DPS.

Enc/clr/wiz/necro for ports, DS, FD pulling, would take a uber geared monk over the necro if that were allowed though. For a unique class group that is. Other answer is still gonna be enc/enc/clr/wiz. This group will have whacked a whole continent of nameds before your DaP arrives at the druid ring you had to run to

Unless you specifically need to port to sky or hate, druid is the clear winner as the 4th if you wanted a porter. PoTG, mana free group regen, a better DS, harmony pulls if outside, and the mobility that goes along with sow and ports. They don't nuke like the wizard, mind you, but they nuke hard enough to make an impact when it's needed.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 06:10 PM

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough. I was referring to talking loading mobs up with the best dots.

No, you were just flat out wrong by a large margin. Just admit it please. I am not sure why it is so difficult for you to admit when you are wrong.

Even 3 ticks of Pyrocruor is 333 Damage for 400 mana, which is something like 45% damage for the same mana as Touch of Night. It is nowhere near 2-3x mana for 25% damage. You got both the mana and the damage values drastically wrong in all cases, regardless of the DoT. Please stop making stuff up and spitting it out, you are just going to confuse people. You also look bad yourself doing it.

I do find it amusing that you are splitting hairs on the mana efficiency of 2.16 vs 1.71 on a class with lich as if that difference in efficiency is a fraction of the difference between the dps of a mage (direct via nuking and pet and indirect via Dmg shield) lacking off and the much lower dps of a shaman trying to hard.

In reality EBolt is typically going to do more than 3 ticks, even on trash mobs. You are simply doing your normal tactic of twisting all scenarios to be as bad as possible, so your argument looks better.

Remember, you also advocated (yesterday) for the cleric and necro healing the shaman so they can canni harder to still fail at DPS.

You have the two level 60s classes that have Ebolt, and you didn't know about the spell at all. You clearly don't know how much DPS a Shaman or a Necromancer can do, even with both classes at level 60. Please quit while you are behind. You have lost this debate in the most spectacular fashion.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 06:12 PM

Just go and solo ffs. You know you want to.

https://www.adultandgeriatricautism.com/post/autism-and-relationships-parallel-play-in-adulthood

https://www.theottoolbox.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/parallel-play.png

You have the two level 60s classes that have Ebolt, and you didn't know about the spell at all. You clearly don't know how much DPS a Shaman or a Necromancer can do, even with both classes at level 60. Please quit while you are behind. You have lost this debate in most spectacular fashion.

I am well aware of E-bolt. We have discussed it already in this thread about 300 pages or more ago.

EDIT: things may have changed since they removed the hate from poison counters but this line of spells was one sure fire way of absolutely getting initial unwanted aggro in the past.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 06:14 PM

I am well aware of E-bolt. We have discussed it already in this thread about 300 pages or more ago.

So why do you believe EBolt will do 25% the damage of Touch of Night at the cost of 2-3x Mana, even at 3 ticks? You could look at the wiki to see that is so very wrong. Just admit you were wrong please.

Troxx

01-01-2024, 06:23 PM

So why do you believe EBolt will do 25% the damage of Touch of Night at the cost of 2-3x Mana, even at 3 ticks? You could look at the wiki to see that is so very wrong. Just admit it please.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pyrocruor

https://wiki.project1999.com/Cessation_of_Cor

https://wiki.project1999.com/Splurt

Examples of dots I was referring to. 14.5 seconds + GCD and 900 mana just to load these 3 up all so that none of them have any time to do meaningful damage despite their superior efficiency.

E-bolt is the one potential exception ... but again ... even if you cast it the second the fight starts you won't land the spell until over 6 seconds later. If the fights are fast, E-bolt is less efficient than inefficient than a straight up lifetap, much less a direct damage nuke (undead or otherwise). The break even point is at 4 ticks (fight duration > 30 seconds) but then only by razor thin 'who cares' margins ... and it doesn't heal you while doing it.

In the meantime you could have gotten off 2 or 3 of these:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Chill_Bones at 2.57 DPM

or

https://wiki.project1999.com/Exile_Undead at 2.9 DPM

A level appropriate hasted/quadding enchanter pet + beefy mage pet + necro summon pet vs charm pet is going to make ridiculously short work of any standard xp group mob. The 3 of those pets towards the end of the xp group game will be putting out 250-280dps + whatever dmg from dmg shield before anyone lobs any damaging spell of any kind.

If you're hunting somewhere like kael arena where mobs have large hp pools and strong regen, the necro's spell lineup will understandably change.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 06:31 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pyrocruor

https://wiki.project1999.com/Cessation_of_Cor

Examples of dots I was referring to. 14.5 seconds + GCD and 900 mana just to load these 3 up all so that none of them have any time to do meaningful damage despite their superior efficiency.

Except you were wrong here too by a large margin.

3 ticks of Pyrocruor is 333 Damage for 400 mana, which is something like 45% damage for the same mana as Touch of Night.

3 ticks of Cessation of Cor is 300 Damage for 250 mana, which is 68% damage for the same mana as Touch of Night.

Neither of these are anywhere near 2-3x mana for 25% damage. You got both the mana and the damage values drastically wrong in all cases, regardless of the DoT. You were wrong, just admit it.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Chill_Bones at 2.57 DPM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Exile_Undead at 2.9 DPM

Yes, you can use DD's as well. I said this earlier. As you can see, both of those are more mana efficient than Touch of Night. That is why healing the Necromancer is better than letting them use their less efficient Lifetaps for damage. Torpor is basically free when healing the Necromancer. You only need to throw one on every few minutes to make up for Lich. This gives your Necromancer a boost to damage with no additional effort for the Necromancer.

A level appropriate hasted/quadding enchanter pet + beefy mage pet + necro summon pet vs charm pet is going to make ridiculously short work of any standard xp group mob. The 3 of those pets towards the end of the xp group game will be putting out 250-280dps + whatever dmg from dmg shield before anyone lobs any damaging spell of any kind.

You seem to really want the extra bit of DPS the Mage provides, while simultaneously saying that increasing the Necromancers damage by healing them isn't necessary. It's nonsensical.

fortior

01-01-2024, 08:44 PM

Duik

01-01-2024, 08:51 PM

fortior

01-01-2024, 08:58 PM

Oh yeah pre 60 shamans might as well not even exist in optimized caster parties. Pre 60 no raid gear no rare clickies? Enc/nec/clr with a pity 4th pick

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 09:06 PM

Hands up who is lvl 60 and has torpor that wants to test this theory?
Desperately Slandering Mages is not included in this. No group would last long enough to prove it eithwr way.
At 60 you are not xping unless you take a few deaths. So none of the lvl60 sham with torpor are even gonna wanna do this.
This is/was for xp groups, not lvl 60's with full spell books parallel playing like you are extolling the virtue of.

Ok we get it, a sham wiff all spells and torpor can do wonderful stuff. A necro at all lvl stages can do virrually ALL the same things with slight mana efficiency differences. (As they can at other lvls. Better lich better taps etc)
Lvl 60 necro gets a better lich and another undead charm?

Lvl60 shm gets (a chance at) torpor, the class defining spell. Before then they just a 5th wheel that can do a few things (that other classes also do) acceptably.
A sub60 or torporless 60 sham is just an inefficient cleric, a fat non charming chanter or a low dps malo mage replacement.

I agree that level 60's generally aren't farming trash mobs. Realistically you don't need the extra DPS from a Mage when killing named mobs, the mobs are going to die quickly anyway. You won't save enough time per kill to get another kill in a singe session either.

The topic usually gets changed to killing trash mobs as a deflection tactic from people trying to claim Mages are going to offer something significant to the group in the endgame. This is because they cannot counter the point above. Torpor Shamans offer much more to an endgame group than Mages.

The point of leveling is to get to 60 and farm endgame content. If your group only gets to level 40 and stops playing, group composition is honestly irrelevant. Just about any 4 player group is going to destroy all level 1-39 mobs, because they are already very easy. This is why you can level up a twinked monk from level 30-40 in like 10 hours or less. You could probably get to level 40 quickly with 4 rogues. Just have a lot of bandages and switch who is tanking after each kill.

If you actually care about your group composition, then you are probably planning on getting to 60. A Shaman is a much better long term investment for the group and the individual player than a Mage. A four man group is going to reach 60 quickly anyway, whether you take the Shaman or the Mage.

EDIT: Enchanters need expensive spells as well, this isn't exclusive to Shamans. If your group can pool their resources to afford 3 copies of all the expensive Enchanter spells in a Ench/Ench/Ench/Cleric group, they could buy Torpor for the Shaman. Spell cost isn't a very good argument when you are using Enchanters as a class.

fortior

01-01-2024, 09:18 PM

So what’s the highest value stuff a theoretical 4 man group could take, maybe it’s better to see what is out there and then design a group around that

DeathsSilkyMist

01-01-2024, 10:18 PM

So what’s the highest value stuff a theoretical 4 man group could take, maybe it’s better to see what is out there and then design a group around that

Monk/Shaman/Enchanter is one of the best trios out there. It can handle any single group content that doesn't require a Warrior using Disciplines as far as I know. It's a good template. That is why Necromancer/Shaman/Enchanter is what I would pick for the first 3. Shamans and Enchanters are the two best solo classes in the game. Putting them together means your group can do everything those two classes can solo, and more when they are grouped. Necromancers are also very good solo classes, especially in undead zones.

The fourth member is a bit harder to pick when restricted to caster/priest, because there is a good chance that one or more players have a pocket Wizard, Mage, and/or Cleric already. On Blue especially, people have tons of alts.

Cleric is an easy choice for CHealing the pet and Aegolism as a generalist pick. Mage can be useful for a few CoTH pulls like Chardok Royals. Wizard would be useful if you want to go to Hate. In terms of how useful the class is at 60 for the individual player, I would lean towards picking the Cleric if they don't have a pocket Cleric already. That is what I suggested on page 1, Shaman/Necromancer/Enchanter/Cleric. You can make a pocket Mage and Wizard for CoTHs and ports if you don't have that already. It is a bit more annoying to swap the Wizard for ports, so you could do Wizard instead of Cleric if that is a serious pain point, and the specific player doesn't mind leveling a Wizard to 60.

Penish

01-01-2024, 10:39 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge

group content challenges are at the bottom

vindi
faydedar
etc
etc

four man vindi? maybe

Troxx

01-01-2024, 11:28 PM

I could be wrong but I always figured the scope of this thread was level 1 through level 60 and all content in between that could be done with 4 casters.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-02-2024, 12:21 AM

I could be wrong but I always figured the scope of this thread was level 1 through level 60 and all content in between that could be done with 4 casters.

OP never specified. The only rule OP gave was the title of the thread: "Best 4 person all caster/priest group". That is why I always found it odd when people added arbitrary rules, like no pocket clerics. OP never said you couldn't do that. OP only posted a few times in this thread, and they never added rules.

I've always been talking about the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group for endgame farming". This is because group composition matters the most during the endgame. A four person caster/priest group is going to level quickly in most cases. There is no problem with taking a Shaman, who isn't as strong early on. The Shaman is an investment in the future for when the group hits level 60. People don't seem to be too worried about spell costs either, because they want a group composition with 3 Enchanters and a Cleric. That group needs at least 90k if they want 3 copies of Bedlam, Dictate, and Forlorn Deeds, and 1 copy of Visions of Grandeur and Gift of Pure Thought. I say 1 copy of the last two spells, because you could save a bit of money by having a specific enchanter responsible for casting VoG and Gift of Pure Thought. If the players are able to pool 90k together for spells, they can buy Torpor for the Shaman.

If you are playing with casual players who typically get bored of leveling characters around level 50, then group composition really doesn't matter much. That is why I don't really talk about the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group for leveling", because honestly there are a lot of different compositions that will work equally well. 4 Mages would be just fine, for example, and be a lot of fun too.

Duik

01-02-2024, 01:07 AM

Go epic dot ya 5 mobs, send in torpored, hasted puppy dog and sit wiff da uva children asking intermittantly how they are going in /ooc.

Did I get that right?
Damn straight.
I fucken Nailed it.

Swish

01-02-2024, 02:31 AM

Did we arrive at a definitive answer yet? A quick summary of pages 1-461 would be great :)

Duik

01-02-2024, 03:15 AM

Depends.
Meandering permanent group of 4 friends would start knowing that 2 chant 1 clr 1 doesnt matter but not wiz or dru is min/max. Buying expensive spells between them.

Lvl60's doing named camps 2 chant 1 clr 1 doesnt matter but not wiz (unless planes) or dru.

Choose mage if dependable burst dps is a priority.
Choose sham if you want a grouped soloer fencing off part of the sandbox playing with his 4 - 5 "friends" for mage like dps.

Penish

01-02-2024, 09:05 AM

Did we arrive at a definitive answer yet? A quick summary of pages 1-461 would be great :)

answered on page 1 by crede, rest is DSM sporting classic symptoms from the DSM

gl fellow peoples

7thGate

01-02-2024, 11:04 AM

four man vindi? maybe

I think if you didn't get called out for stalling (maybe early AM kill?) you might be able to do a 4 man Vindi with Ench/Ench/Cleric/Mage with a ton of prep. Mage holds Vindi aggroed with sky ring and corpsed box of the voids to prevent out of combat regen between Dictates, enchanters take turns dictating Yetarr and zoning before dictate break. Cleric keeps Yetarr up with sky neck off corpsed box of the voids. Factioned Mage pet pulls Yetarr and does the Vindi pull. Keep Yetarr from pathing back with snare off Ball of Yarn and keep him pacified so he stands there while dicatate recharges. Its the lowest man Vindi theorycrafting I've been able to figure out at least. You would also probably need to pull and kill the Temple Guardians first to keep them from causing problems.

Biggest problem with this approach is whether the mage gets pasted even with spamming instaclick DA, there is very limited wiggle room with Vindi wailing on you; you get 1 combat round, basically. On the plus side they only have to make it 2.5 mintues between dictates, and could heal up by moving out of melee range while Yetarr holds aggro.

You might also get there just charming Bvellos and a Trooper and healing them, but that's a very long fight for pet breaks to cause issues.

7thGate

01-02-2024, 11:51 AM

I would go wizard over druid for hate minis. I think when you’re talking high value targets there’s competition as well on p99 so you need your own porter.

Highest value 4 mannable things I can think of: drusella, hate minis, fungi king, SG, ragefire.
A necro or ench can hold down DS solo, not sure if a shaman can if asked to clear by a competitor. Fungi king is gonna be a 2 man affair, soloing it is possible but kind of a party trick. The wizard can’t do much solo so probably hangs out with the ench/* to TL them as needed/help burn

If a shaman can hold DS solo then you can do shm/enc/clr/wiz and just dps down all the mushrooms or sub a nec for fd pulling the king. But I don’t think shaman is the class you want for DS and there’s nothing particularly ‘valuable’ they ‘unlock’ ie. a 3-man without shm can do the same targets, just with less manpower. But without the nec no fd pulls, the ench is mandatory and pretty much carries the group, wiz is mandatory to snipe earth staffs/shields/necro books. Shaman is like, oh we are allowed a 4th pick and we can’t just pick another ench lol

I’d go cleric for paci bracer and aego/ch but I don’t think the priest pick matters as much as people pretend it does

Harla Dar might get unlocked with Shaman, you need the high MR tank, extra slower, better Malo and Torp healing I think. Maybe Guardian Wurms? Both probably need harmony though, so would probably need shm/ench/clr/druid or something like that. You won't stop gate with the comp, so would need to fight Harla on spawn, and that's busy so you would need a dedicated Harmony/kiter to have a shot.

Puppet show, but that's doable with two people.

Epic Rogue MQs, maybe. Need a Wizard for hate ports for that and I'm not sure if there's good enough pets to try for a 4 man general or not.

Possibly Prince Thirneg? I'm not sure if Harmony is enough to pull him solo, you definitely need Harmony for any chance at him though. I don't think you can break into growth with a 4 man priest group though, unless Harmony works on the protectors to get the aggro radius down enough that people can zone in. 1 Cleric is also going to get their healing stressed pretty hard even on pets with Thirneg, he hits hard. Not sure if the math works out for that or not, but Druid/Ench/Ench/Cleric is probably the team if anything works.

What else...Chardok royals, maybe? I know people low man those with enchanters sometimes, but I haven't looked at it enough to really know what you need there, but I would guess probably not a shaman since I remember that solo artist cleric getting King with puppet strings, so you're probably getting carried by the enchanters and cleric in that one.

Keldor Dek`Torek, Guardian Kozzalym could both benefit from a factioned pet puller for FTE, but any 4th with a pet to ench/ench/cleric probably works.

Can you do Vaniki, maybe? Mage or Shaman might work, but the extra Malo/Mala difference might matter there, and Shaman is probably more likely to be able to tank once slowed. I think you need a caster to start tanking at least unless you memblur it (I don't think you're supposed to do that, but not 100% sure since its in that fuzzy kindof-but-not-really-a-raid-mob type of area) since I think the pets will get it into summoning range before they get get aggro off the slowers. He hits hard enough the shaman slow might also be needed for the extra effective 20% damage reduction going from 70%->75% slow.

Troxx

01-02-2024, 12:02 PM

Did we arrive at a definitive answer yet? A quick summary of pages 1-461 would be great :)

Read pages 1-3.

Or just these 4 posts (found on pages 1-3):

Oh this one is easy. Enchanter, Cleric, Mage, Necro.

Enchanter focuses on dps/slows & mez when needed
Cleric will be nuking most of the time but cheal is cool too
Mage provides malo/dps & coth when needed
Necro primary puller/cc & summon/shadowbond when needed

Enchanter, Enchanter, Enchanter, Cleric.

3 charmed pets, cleric for oh shit. Extra chanters as disposable pullers

Shaman is a waste. All these things you speak of, the cleric/enchanter/mage can handle. The more the shaman does, the more mana the other classes will have just sitting there doing nothing with. Enchanter/cleric will have plenty of mana for slows/heals.

Mage can malo & do superior dps, and provide rods/coth when needed. Add in mage epic pet eventually, and it's gg.

Only situation where I like shaman more than mage is if you need to keep both torp/cheal goin to win...but I doubt that's the case for 99% of situations.

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.

So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.

I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

Emphasis on my last line of first post.

Everything that needed to be said was said before page 4. Everything else is just verbal/typed diarrhea from DSM. Posts 31-4614 don't add much value to people who already understand this game. If you're bored it's definitely worth the read though -- - shit gets hilarious.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-02-2024, 12:35 PM

Everything that needed to be said was said before page 4. Everything else is just verbal/typed diarrhea from DSM. Posts 31-4614 don't add much value to people who already understand this game. If you're bored it's definitely worth the read though -- - shit gets hilarious.

As you can see, Troxx just posts nonsense like this when he loses arguments. He also bumps this thread when he loses arguments. It's 100% predictable. He wants to pretend he knows a lot because he leveled multiple characters to 60.

However, he didn't even know about Envenomed Bolt, when he leveled both classes with the spell to 60.

Just remember that Troxx couldn't even admit he was wrong when he posted this:

Necro dots are quite fantastic when soloing. Very efficient. Very hard hitting.

In groups? You'll spend 2-3x the mana to do 25% of the damage vs just nuking/tapping.

It was trivial to disprove with a quick check of the wiki. He could have said he was just exaggerating, but his pride made him post a bunch of excuses to try and back out of it. He wants you to believe him having a level 60 Necromancer is some sort of evidence he knows what he is talking about. He also believes a bunch of nonsense about Shamans, even though he has a level 60 Shaman too. It is clear that he has leveled a lot of characters to 60, but hasn't played any one class enough to be an expert on a class. Leveling a character to 60 doesn't really mean anything. You can get power leveled to 60 without knowing anything about a class.

Did we arrive at a definitive answer yet? A quick summary of pages 1-461 would be great :)

This is still my answer for endgame farming, which was said in less detail on page 1:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3668306&postcount=4604

Troxx

01-02-2024, 01:05 PM

https://media2.giphy.com/media/bC9czlgCMtw4cj8RgH/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952unrzlw0b7kf79sn8c81hr86xaf2us 4sn6fh8behf&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Toxigen

01-02-2024, 02:13 PM

chortles in Berg

fortior

01-02-2024, 08:07 PM

Eh porter/fd puller higher tier picks than second ench imo, p99 is a competitive box and fd lets you get fte while leaving blocking mobs up for example

Like I’m assuming these groups would compete vs each other

Swish

01-02-2024, 08:22 PM

Sounds like the jury hasn't come to a final decision.

Toxigen

01-02-2024, 11:45 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

01-02-2024, 11:53 PM

then yes enc / cleric / wiz / necro wins

I'd still swap the cleric for a Shaman in this kind of group. You get more classes that can split off and solo when there are no priority targets up. Cleric has to stay stuck to the Ench or Necro. You can always use a pocket cleric for the rare fight that might need to CH the pet.

Duik

01-03-2024, 12:07 AM

I'd still swap the cleric for a Shaman in this kind of group. You get more classes that can split off and solo when there are no priority targets up. Cleric has to stay stuck to the Ench or Necro. You can always use a pocket cleric for the rare fight that might need to CH the pet.

Just solo and leave grouping to the people who actually like being with other people.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 12:21 AM

Just solo and leave grouping to the people who actually like being with other people.

I'm not the one who suggested the Wizard porting farm crew that splits up. Talk to Fortior if you want to complain about the discussion. I am just replying to it.

Personally I agree that the Wizard farm crew is more niche than a standard group that sticks together. But OP didn't specify that a split up farm crew is invalid for this thread.

Duik

01-03-2024, 12:29 AM

Solo, solo, solo, solo, solo.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 12:34 AM

Solo, solo, solo, solo, solo.

You can't even troll correctly. I'm not the one who suggested a split group that uses the Wizard to port individuals around. Trying to troll me with this doesn't even make sense.

Gloomlord

01-03-2024, 12:43 AM

So, we're all trolls, are we? Every single one of us?

Lunatic...

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 12:51 AM

So, we're all trolls, are we? Every single one of us?

Lunatic...

Not everybody on these forums are trolls. I never said that, so please stop your usual tactic of lying. You simply choose to ignore troll behavior if it attacks people you disagree with, like myself.

You are a confirmed troll, since over 80% of your posts on this forum are just insults and trolls. You have 387 posts in this thread, and basically all of them are insults and trolling. People can look for themselves by filtering this thread by your posts.

You're the only one I'm "harassing", you manipulative sociopath.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663986&postcount=241 - Link to the quote above.

Your account is essentially made just to troll me, which is against the rules by the way:

Trolling
If you must troll another user, keep it contained to Rants and Flames. Don’t over do it.

Forum accounts created for the sole purpose of trolling are not allowed.

Duik

01-03-2024, 01:02 AM

You can't even troll correctly. I'm not the one who suggested a split group that uses the Wizard to port individuals around. Trying to troll me with this doesn't even make sense.

Im not trolling you. Im offering you the path of least resistance. Almost every post you make about the usefulness of a shm over virtually any other class is the ability to solo off to the side while everyone else plays together.
You brought this on yourself. You are virtually trolling yourself by your definition.

Your account is essentially made just to troll me, which is against the rules by the way:

Well he is the Lord Of Gloom sooo...

Also also. New word. Trollo: A player who joins grouping meta threads and repeatedly mentions a certain classes ability to solo 4 - 5 mobs while the rest of the group concentrates on one mob.
A bit wordy i know, maybe someone perspicatious could put it more sussinctly for me.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 01:04 AM

Im not trolling you. Im offering you the path of least resistance. Almost every post you make about the usefulness of a shm over virtually any other class is the ability to solo off to the side while everyone else plays together.
You brought this on yourself. You are virtually trolling yourself by your definition.

Lying about what I've posted in the past just shows you are a troll. Honestly you rarely post something that is actually contributing to any thread on these forums. Please quote me where you think I said "the usefulness of a shm over virtually any other class is the ability to solo off to the side while everyone else plays together". You won't be able to find one post, let alone "almost every post". You are simply twisting my words to troll me, because you cannot win debates with facts and logic.

Duik

01-03-2024, 01:34 AM

I did link a post of you saying exactly that above.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist View Post
I'd still swap the cleric for a Shaman in this kind of group. You get more classes that can split off and solo ....

Remember that one?
Better than mage cuz shm can solo 4 - 5 while everyone else groups.

Many many posts exactly like this one.
Anywho. Id defo take a wiz or druid or virtually any other class if you was the shm who turned up.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 01:39 AM

I did link a post of you saying exactly that above.

Remember that one?
Better than mage cuz shm can solo 4 - 5 while everyone else groups.

Many many posts exactly like this one.
Anywho. Id defo take a wiz or druid or virtually any other class if you was the shm who turned up.

Please show where my quote says "the usefulness of a shm over virtually any other class is the ability to solo off to the side while everyone else plays together".

I don't see it anywhere here:

I'd still swap the cleric for a Shaman in this kind of group. You get more classes that can split off and solo when there are no priority targets up. Cleric has to stay stuck to the Ench or Necro. You can always use a pocket cleric for the rare fight that might need to CH the pet.

You are taking what I said out of context and changing the wording (which changes the meaning) to troll me, as usual. I said "in this kind of group", because the context of that post is responding to Fortior's specific discussion about a Wizard focused group that can teleport around and split up to kill more targets. The whole idea of Fortior's Wizard group is you have multiple people soloing/duoing to kill more targets. I never made the split group suggestion. I am just replying to Fortior's discussion about a Wizard focused group that splits up to kill more targets.

The problem is you don't read threads, and make up lies about what other people say because you don't understand what is being discussed.

Duik

01-03-2024, 04:30 AM

Gloomlord

01-03-2024, 06:10 AM

Not everybody on these forums are trolls. I never said that, so please stop your usual tactic of lying. You simply choose to ignore troll behavior if it attacks people you disagree with, like myself.

You are a confirmed troll, since over 80% of your posts on this forum are just insults and trolls. You have 387 posts in this thread, and basically all of them are insults and trolling. People can look for themselves by filtering this thread by your posts.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663986&postcount=241 - Link to the quote above.

Your account is essentially made just to troll me, which is against the rules by the way:

You guys looking at this?

Nobody is going to buy what he just said, but does he really think anyone else is?

Who do you think is MORE disruptive in this forum?

Duik

01-03-2024, 06:58 AM

Well DSM is the Distributor of Serviette Math so im sure he has calculated (to 17 decimal places) the accuracy of his conclusion.
So it must be true.
It's a trollocaust.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 10:45 AM

Telling a necro not to tap cuz a shm can heal them virtually for free while nec does uva stuff like dot and dd. ie better than a nec and make them be just a dotting shm by limiting them according to your requirements. Shm can canni and torp mana back. Just sit there and be a good necro (according to my specs. Lolocaust Specs...)

Using shm to tank cuz they better. In this instance cuz can slow and torp. Why? Positioning of back stabbing charm pets. Also it fits your needs to control party duty assignments to make shm indispensable.

Better than clr cuz all clr can do is CH and be glued to chanter. Why? Chanter pet breaks. Come on, chanters solo stuff all the time and breaks must occur then. Im sure many have a charm break toolbox.

Better than dru cuz well admittedly they are in this instance. Unless of course you need burns, potg (since we all 60), ports, DS, since we also dotting, and snare.

Better than wiz cuz no way to reclaim mana like a shm can. No staying power man! No matter stuns interrupt caster mobs. Admittedly a wiz is limited in this scenario but I'd still take one if you are the shm in question.

You have said all these things and unlike you i couldnt give too fucks about tracking down and linking all of them. These threads become massive when you become involved and id rather mow the grass in the cow paddock across the road from me than sort through all your chaff.

I still don't see "the usefulness of a shm over virtually any other class is the ability to solo off to the side while everyone else plays together" anywhere in your post. Thank you for admitting you can't find it.

I don't understand why you think healing a Necromancer so they can cast more spells than just lifetaps is a limit of some kind.

You guys looking at this?

Yes, we are looking at this:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663986&postcount=241

You're the only one I'm "harassing", you manipulative sociopath.

You've admitted to being a troll, and over 80% of your posts are factually just insults and trolling.

Who do you think is MORE disruptive in this forum?

Factual trolls like yourself are disruptive, which is why your behavior is against the forum rules.

You can redeem yourself if you choose to stop posting trolls and insults. Post on topic from now on instead of what you normally post over 80% of the time.

Toxigen

01-03-2024, 11:25 AM

almost to five hundo

beboprocksteady

01-03-2024, 11:46 AM

This is so sad.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 12:01 PM

This is so sad.

Agreed. This thread shows there are a number of trolls on this forum who attack anyone who disagree with them. It's a good guide for people to find who the trolls are, but I wish they would just stop trolling.

Troxx

01-03-2024, 05:15 PM

He was referring to you I’d wager.

35.5 more pages to go!

plzrelax

01-03-2024, 07:45 PM

Can bards fit into this conversation?

cyxthryth

01-03-2024, 08:19 PM

For anyone looking for a TL;DR of pages 1 - 464, here is a recap/summary:

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:

The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:

I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

Having multiple conversations simultaneously is not moving goalposts. Talking about pocket clerics when OP didn't specify that was outside of the scope is not moving goalposts. OP's question was general, and he has said as much.

Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM simply has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.

No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe.

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe.

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

Even though DSM ultimately - without addressing/replying to/acknowledging/defending/challenging/attempting to refute the above - seemingly conceded by stating the following on 9/18/2022:

This will be my last post

DSM has recently returned to this thread & has proceeded posting additional replies - to posters other than myself. This would seemingly indicate DSM has chosen to return to this civil discussion. DSM - of course - still has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the aforementioned above quotes, and as is clearly visible in the post history DSM has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is - still - in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", "new" and "win" for the sake of civil discussin hehe.

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 08:28 PM

Oh Cyxthryth is back. Another account exclusively made to troll. 400/411 of their posts are in this thread alone for reference.

They just copy paste the same nonsense over and over again. You can look at the post history and see the same post over and over. It's all easy to disprove too if you cared to look through the thread. I am not sure why he bothers spamming this thread.

Gloomlord

01-03-2024, 08:52 PM

Yep, this account is made to troll alright!

Conveniently ignore I have a 59 Bard, 57 Paladin and a 54 Necromancer. This account was made exclusively to troll!

https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExeW1hZXR5MXh4Mnc3Z21tcXVsZmw0YTJ mYjF2Nnc3eHZpaTVibjhpZSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3oxRmGXbquXKz6DNPq/giphy.gif

cyxthryth

01-03-2024, 08:57 PM

Oh Cyxthryth is back. Another account exclusively made to troll.

They just copy paste the same nonsense over and over again. You can look at the post history and see the same post over and over. It's all easy to disprove too if you cared to look through the thread. I am not sure why he bothers spamming this thread.

I never "left" and unlike yourself I never made a post in this thread proclaiming "this will be my last post" (hi DSM lol). My account was not exclusively made to troll.

Anyway (since I'm clearly not a troll and clearly do not exclusively copy/paste, and on the off chance you actually reply as you've - VERY selectively - done with a VERY select few of my previous replies)...

I'd still swap the cleric for a Shaman in this kind of group.

The past 464 pages could possibly suggest/be interpreted to indicate (particularly by someone who merely skims instead of reading all of the past 464 pages) that you'd likely say something similar regardless of what other classes and content are being discussed. Is there any particular group size & content combination which you WOULDN'T include Shaman among the "best" classes and therefore choose Shaman as one of the classes for that group/content?

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 08:59 PM

Yep, this account is made to troll alright!

Conveniently ignore I have a 59 Bard, 57 Paladin and a 54 Necromancer. This account was made exclusively to troll!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663986&postcount=241

You're the only one I'm "harassing", you manipulative sociopath.

You admitted it, and the evidence is over 80% of your entire post history is just insulting and trolling. Anybody can check your post history, they don't need to take my word for it.

What characters you play in game is honestly irrelevant to your actions here.

My account was not exclusively made to troll.

400/412 nonsensical posts in this thread exclusively says otherwise. You cannot hide your post history.

Unfortunately for you, your trolling was just too obvious. It is why most posters ignored the vast majority of your posts, even other trolls. I am just replying to you in this instance so people get context for your account. You will probably reply in this thread again, but there isn't much point in engaging with you further. You will continue to post the same nonsense over and over. It is the pattern which everybody can see if they check the history of this thread.

Is there any particular group size & content combination which you WOULDN'T include Shaman among the "best" classes and therefore choose Shaman as one of the classes for that group/content?

Sure. Any fight where the mob cannot be slowed is generally not a very good fight for a Shaman. Xenovorash comes to mind just off the top of my head.

Sometimes groups will still take a Shaman in these cases because Torpor is a cheap and good spot heal, and spot heals are good to mitigate potential gaps in a CH chain. The Shaman can Cannibalize too, so they can cast more spot heals while Torpor is ticking.

For single group content without a Warrior (which is what this thread is about), very few mobs that people want to kill are immune to slow, or deal enough damage to outpace Torpor. That is why Shaman is a top pick in this thread. The content fits well with a Shaman's strengths.

Gloomlord

01-03-2024, 09:03 PM

You're just proving my point, you deluded fool.

cyxthryth

01-03-2024, 09:15 PM

400/412 nonsensical posts in this thread exclusively says otherwise. You cannot hide your post history.

Unfortunately for you, your trolling was just too obvious. It is why most posters ignored the vast majority of your posts, even other trolls. I am just replying to you in this instance so people get context for your account.

Would you be willing to provide the definitions of "nonsensical" and "trolling" that you are ascribing to my posts in this thread, for the sake of civil discussion? To my knowledge, I have not indicated that I am interested in hiding my post history, which I am fully aware is not able to be hidden - so I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe I would be interested in doing and/or that I am attempting to do anything of the sort (strawman much?). Regarding whether others have "ignored" the vast majority of my posts: others already replied to inform you (specifically) that they were not ignoring me, my posts were simply largely directed solely at yourself. I have interacted with others, and I/my posts have been the subject of other posters' replies. This is all clear and visible in the clearly visible post history.

The objective fact of the matter is: I could simply claim that your thousands of posts in this thread are "nonsensical" and (obvious) "trolling" and we would simply be at an impasse. :)

Troxx

01-03-2024, 09:28 PM

Good question - they aren't exactly a melee class if you play them appropriately (excluding epic for mod and proc).

DeathsSilkyMist

01-03-2024, 09:32 PM

Good question - they aren't exactly a melee class if you play them appropriately (excluding epic for mod and proc).

If you are referring to Bards, I agree they are in a grey area in terms of their toolkit.

It would probably be up to OP to decide what they meant by "caster". I think everybody here assumes OP meant cloth caster (Wizard, Enchanter, Magician, Necromancer). Based on OP's few replies, that seems to be the case. Priest is obviously Shaman/Druid/Cleric.

Troxx

01-03-2024, 10:09 PM

Bards, played correctly, are super powerful but for this particular group I might argue are less efficient than necro/mage ... but more efficient/effective than shaman. From a dynamic standpoint, they meet the needs of 3 otherwise capable and (as a group) independent set of toons way more than a shaman could. They aren't a "caster class" though so I excluded the class from my thought process. They don't add much to kill power but they do add a layer of "other" to the group and in extra ways beyond what a shaman can.

Played poorly ... a bard is a waste in most all cases. Some 55 and above don't even appreciate the value of keeping cantana (string mod or not) up as much as possible. Bad bard are bad news and fuck it .... no.

Disclaimer: Troxx (my namesake) was my first to level 60 and is a bard so I have bias. More often than not when you have a person playing bard they don't know ass from elbow. They can (and should be) the WD-40 of eq. Not powerful on their own but they grease up the gears and make everything O SO MUCH easier when played perfectly.

Disclaimer 2: My second to 60 was my shaman.

In this kind of group they offer:
-mana pulse once level appropriate
-up to 3x mana pulse + group mana regen once level appropriate
-potential hp regen/tick to all in group > 50/tick to all (not pets) in group once level appropriate (1/6 torpor but to everyone) along with mana regen
-pulling potential or primary pulling (lull included)
-CC assistance
-Instant snare/slow on incoming
-dot chants (3sec cast each so loading them all up is possible)

But if the group can handle all the CC and doesn't need or wouldn't benefit from the extra's the bard brings - I don't think they would fit in as well as others. If the bard really knows what they are doing and the others are relative mouth-breathers, however, the bard may add a whole heck of a lot.

eqravenprince

01-04-2024, 12:19 AM

If you are referring to Bards, I agree they are in a grey area in terms of their toolkit.

It would probably be up to OP to decide what they meant by "caster". I think everybody here assumes OP meant cloth caster (Wizard, Enchanter, Magician, Necromancer). Based on OP's few replies, that seems to be the case. Priest is obviously Shaman/Druid/Cleric.

Yes, caster (Wizard, Enchanter, Magician, Necromancer).

Troxx

01-04-2024, 01:05 PM

So you want the best “intelligence” only caster group?

Best: ench ench ench necro.

Enchanters for obvious reasons. Necro provides heal potential if priests are off the table. This brings the most raw power to the table.

Alternative: ench ench necro mage.

Mage provides malo, haste masks + other perks along with decreased risk with 1 less charm to manage. Lower dps but higher safety margin.

Sub in wizard of you want to consider fancy planar targets or want some general mobility.

A pure intelligence caster thread is a lot less interesting to debate than one that includes all casters

DeathsSilkyMist

01-04-2024, 01:08 PM

So you want the best “intelligence” only caster group?

The title of the thread says "Best 4 person all caster/priest group". With OP's clarification of cloth caster, that is a four man group comprising of a combination of the following classes: Wizard, Enchanter, Necromancer, Magician, Shaman, Druid, Cleric. That is what we have been discussing already.

eqravenprince

01-04-2024, 01:41 PM

The title of the thread says "Best 4 person all caster/priest group". With OP's clarification of cloth caster, that is a four man group comprising of a combination of the following classes: Wizard, Enchanter, Necromancer, Magician, Shaman, Druid, Cleric. That is what we have been discussing already.

What DSM said.

Duik

01-04-2024, 06:01 PM

That was to NOT include bards.
Including bards would certainly open up this discussion to new and interesting alternative combos. Since you know the answer was given in the first few pages.

Vivitron

01-05-2024, 02:17 AM

I would love to justify the bard despite it being against the rules, and it isn't terrible 55+, but I just can't see it beating mage or shaman or second enchanter in this group.

Duik

01-05-2024, 03:23 AM

It would if it was just int caster + brd. That is what i was alluding to.

Infectious

01-05-2024, 09:16 AM

DSM coming with straight facts, with actual math behind it. Anybody else want to step up and be wrong?

Duik

01-05-2024, 07:13 PM

Oh no, DSM is Infectious.

fortior

01-10-2024, 01:36 PM

I'm not the one who suggested the Wizard porting farm crew that splits up. Talk to Fortior if you want to complain about the discussion. I am just replying to it.

Personally I agree that the Wizard farm crew is more niche than a standard group that sticks together. But OP didn't specify that a split up farm crew is invalid for this thread.

OP just says 'best 4 person all caster/priest group'

I think everyone agrees that for most camps, the most challenging aspect is clearing to the camp or breaking the camp. For some areas, notably PoHate, the break-in is challenging and you need a special trick to get up there (and green server rules mean you have to port up to kill a newly spawned mini, can't just get a dial wiz hate port and camp up there)

I think we can also all agree that P99 is competitive and the best spots are competed for. XP, loot, etc.

IMO these 2 points mean your own porter is mandatory, if you're doing hate you need rez, if you're doing fungi king you need fd pull so necro, if you're doing SG you need an enchanter. Shaman can fd pull with wizard sky ports and fd ring but that's kind of a meme so I think its just necro here

If it's not about loot but instead churning through blues for sub-60 XP, and you also have to keep the group together, I don't think there's something you can add to cleric/enchanter that makes the duo better for XPing, except for another enchanter or something. In some zones you can do like necro/enchanter (howling stones, kaesora) when level appropriate

Basically if you add a shaman to a clr/enchanter group that shaman is leeching xp. Hell some might say the cleric is leeching xp but I think that's mostly true if you're a twinked or high level/spell complete enchanter, also again for hate you need rez

Toxigen

01-10-2024, 01:59 PM

OP just says 'best 4 person all caster/priest group'

I think everyone agrees that for most camps, the most challenging aspect is clearing to the camp or breaking the camp. For some areas, notably PoHate, the break-in is challenging and you need a special trick to get up there (and green server rules mean you have to port up to kill a newly spawned mini, can't just get a dial wiz hate port and camp up there)

I think we can also all agree that P99 is competitive and the best spots are competed for. XP, loot, etc.

IMO these 2 points mean your own porter is mandatory, if you're doing hate you need rez, if you're doing fungi king you need fd pull so necro, if you're doing SG you need an enchanter. Shaman can fd pull with wizard sky ports and fd ring but that's kind of a meme so I think its just necro here

If it's not about loot but instead churning through blues for sub-60 XP, and you also have to keep the group together, I don't think there's something you can add to cleric/enchanter that makes the duo better for XPing, except for another enchanter or something. In some zones you can do like necro/enchanter (howling stones, kaesora) when level appropriate

Basically if you add a shaman to a clr/enchanter group that shaman is leeching xp. Hell some might say the cleric is leeching xp but I think that's mostly true if you're a twinked or high level/spell complete enchanter, also again for hate you need rez

necro / enc > cleric / enc for pure XP with undead around for sure

fortior

01-10-2024, 02:40 PM

Yeah in a level appropriate range for kaesora and charasis that duo fucks. But when level appropriate for kaesora the necro doesn't have a good HoT or a rez. Not that you should die in kaesora as an ench, that'd be kinda embarrassing

Nostalgiabait

02-18-2024, 01:17 PM

Being purely practical about it, 3 enchanters and a druid would be a hard team to beat.

They'll get to where they need to go, and they'll be there first.

Encs provide CC and superior DPS via charm. No other class configuration of 3 characters is going to be able to do either one better. Druid can heal well enough on casters, and can evac if TSHTF, snare prevents runners. Outdoors you can harmony to utterly trivialize everything.

The only alternative that's worth looking at is Enc x3 + cleric, but given that seemingly everyone has a high level cleric alt to log on at their convenience for rezzes, that's not really a real-world factor.

Enc is just an insanely OP class and can handle everything besides healing. So the question is which healer do you want to add; any of them would be perfectly fine, but the druid brings the most support skills to the table by a fairly wide margin.

Doyen

02-19-2024, 10:22 AM

Toxigen

02-19-2024, 10:45 AM

this is definitely going to 500

Troxx

02-23-2024, 04:48 PM

Ensnare and root CC is often overlooked when comparing druids to other classes. 13 minute ensnare, 3 minute root... Sure, the heals max out around 900hp but epic clicky, drones clicky, and the CC makes druid a hell of a partner.

This is all true but it’s gone pale in comparison to the potency of complete heal on charm pets who, from the KC level upward have hp pools of 4k to potentially well over 7k.

That in and of itself makes cleric a winner before you consider the clerics ability to rez, quickly stun on charm breaks and stack hp to very comfortable levels with hp buff + symbol.

fortior

02-25-2024, 02:39 PM

I don't think you can be competitive in hard group content without rez if the restrictions allow for bringing a cleric or anything else
The cleric can handle paci, heals, rez, and can DA/root as well, idk man. A cleric has what, 2 DAs + potentially 4 from an earring? Thats a lotta dA holds

cd288

02-26-2024, 02:30 PM

This is all true but it’s gone pale in comparison to the potency of complete heal on charm pets who, from the KC level upward have hp pools of 4k to potentially well over 7k.

That in and of itself makes cleric a winner before you consider the clerics ability to rez, quickly stun on charm breaks and stack hp to very comfortable levels with hp buff + symbol.

Yup. If you're doing multi Ench charmed pet group bringing a Druid would be a really poor choice. Why would you need their CC? You don't need them for Harmony either. You don't need DoT clicky because the mobs will get destroyed by the charmed pet DPS in seconds.

Whereas you absolutely need the Cleric for CHing the pets.

Toxigen

02-26-2024, 02:54 PM

almost got to 500

almost

Duik

02-26-2024, 04:15 PM

aaron bushnell!

cd288

02-26-2024, 05:26 PM

aaron bushnell!

Keep political crap off these forums

Duik

02-26-2024, 06:09 PM

I dont know who this is!
Also. I am not a mod. So if i tire of a thread i could (knowing this now) just shit up a thread i dont like wiff da politz!
Pls note. Private note. DM for deetz.

Troxx

02-26-2024, 06:14 PM

Wut?

Toxigen

02-27-2024, 12:39 PM

Wut?

this will prob get the thread finally closed, but

Aaron Bushnell (https://wiki.project1999.com/Immolate)

Garnaak

02-27-2024, 08:03 PM

Ench x 3 / Cleric

No shaman please. If I am needing heals it is because there is a mob hitting me that I need to move away from fast. Slug speed torpor does not do it.

Duik

02-27-2024, 09:04 PM

I assumed the fellow mentioned above was an actor of small stature. I disnt google that name when tox mentioned him in another thread.
That was my bad and ive learnt my lesson.

magethis

03-04-2024, 03:39 AM

enc, mage, monk > druid, shaman, sk > cleric, wiz, warrior > necro, rogue, paladin > ranger, bard?

7thGate

03-04-2024, 01:02 PM

Ensnare and root CC is often overlooked when comparing druids to other classes. 13 minute ensnare, 3 minute root... Sure, the heals max out around 900hp but epic clicky, drones clicky, and the CC makes druid a hell of a partner.

I will say, I've been impressed by the interaction between ensnare, blur and pacify. That lets you park pets for a group for extended periods without having to worry about charm break, and can even handle stuff you otherwise need Dictate or Rapture to manage. We used that combo to park Yetarr for Sanctum's 10 man Vindi. Its why its safe for him to end dictate by zoning even when below summoning HP threshold while he stays on target for the next dictate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyZfNjvsDRE

There's probably some really snazzy stuff you can do with a parked collection of pets held this way by a 2 chanter/1 druid/1 cleric team. Doing Vindi with 4 that way would need charm break luck and a ton of corpsed box of the voids for sky neck, but could maybe be possible depending on whether the cleric would draw heal aggro before dictate recharges, since you're looking at a 7 minute fight probably with 4.

magnetaress

03-04-2024, 06:06 PM

Nerf chanters :p

Toxigen

06-04-2024, 12:56 PM

what is dead may never die

Jimjam

06-04-2024, 05:58 PM

Barbarian, ogre, troll, iksar shamans all soloing in a group racing to 60. Barb gets screwed by the xp share mechanic, but provides its groupmates free xp.

Troxx

06-09-2024, 11:22 AM

what is dead may never die

lol … it lives again!

magnetaress

06-10-2024, 03:10 PM

ench and 3x clr

Swish

06-12-2024, 08:54 PM

3x ench + 1 cleric

Toxigen

06-13-2024, 10:09 AM

I think if we all say the same answer over and over for another 400 pages we'll convince DSM.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2024, 10:18 AM

I think if we all say the same answer over and over for another 400 pages we'll convince DSM.

You are simply trying to convince yourself, instead of looking at the question rationally. It's like a chant for you. You just keep chanting without thinking.

Enchanter and Shaman are the top two solo classes in the game. Stick them together and you can kill everything that both a Shaman and Enchanter can solo. Add a Necro and you've got FD, Res, Twitch, charm on undead, etc. This combo has the kill power, utility, and largest range of camps.

Last member can be more DPS like another Enchanter. Could optionally be a Wizard for porting if you want to go to hate or have the Shaman, Enchanter, and Necro soloing different camps simultaneously.

Cleric and Mage can be pocket characters for CH, Res, and CoTH. This is because they don't need to be level 60 with full spell books or good equipment to unlock their main functions, so they are the obvious choice as pocket characters. A lot of people have pocket clerics already at this point too. Some people also have pocket CoTH bots for things like PoM so they can make side cash.

Toxigen

06-13-2024, 01:18 PM

hes still at it, folks

see sig

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2024, 02:03 PM

hes still at it, folks

see sig

Indeed. Look at his signature. He is a confirmed troll who tries to discredit other posters, rather than participate in a discussion. He simply wants to be right, regardless of the truth.

He will do the same thing to other posters who disagree with him, even if he turns out to be incorrect.

Thank you for showing everybody you have no credibility when posting here. If you want to assert you are correct about something, evidence is required.

Trexller

06-13-2024, 02:03 PM

well i mean theoretically yes

with enough clerics any class can survive AoW

it would make a good youtube video

Toxigen

06-13-2024, 02:10 PM

well i mean theoretically yes

with enough clerics any class can survive AoW

it would make a good youtube video

wrong

most classes would get 1-rounded...can still happen to less than BiS warriors once defensive drops

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2024, 02:14 PM

well i mean theoretically yes

with enough clerics any class can survive AoW

it would make a good youtube video

I did look into this a bit deeper, as I was wondering if AoW does two attack rounds in quick succession, or one round. Originally I had thought Flurry was only one extra attack per trigger. So a double attack could get two flurry procs for a total of 4 hits, and when AoW does 8 hits within a second, you could CH between the two attack rounds. Since CH chains are normally one second, tanks getting one shot would be caused by the CH chain interval, not because it was impossible to heal between attack rounds.

But this was wrong, at least for P99.

It looks like AoW can do at least 7 hits in one round via flurry, so the issue is lower HP classes would get one shot. That is up to 8000 damage in a single attack. A cloth caster can get up to 5000ish HP if they have all the best HP items in slot, 255 STA, FoS, Aego, and Divine strength. With a Rune V chain they could survive a 5 hit flurry at best.

I don't think a Divine Intervention chain would work either if the wiki is correct. It says you need to be between 1 and 15% health for it to proc, so going from 100 to 0 wouldn't trigger it if that's correct.

But with enough DPS you might be able to kill him so fast he doesn't get a 6+ hit Flurry. I haven't looked through enough logs to see how often he does a 6+ flurry hit.

Toxigen didn't give any in-depth analysis into the situation, he just said "you're wrong" and assumed that was enough evidence. We don't even know if he actually knew the details about AoW flurry before he said this. Maybe he learned something new too.

Trexller

06-13-2024, 02:22 PM

i do remember back in the day that folks did have ench tank aow just for funs

but that would have also been luclin era

magnetaress

06-13-2024, 09:59 PM

3x ench + 1 cleric

touche lol :o

Toxigen

06-14-2024, 08:34 AM

Toxigen didn't give any in-depth analysis into the situation, he just said "you're wrong" and assumed that was enough evidence. We don't even know if he actually knew the details about AoW flurry before he said this. Maybe he learned something new too.

I don't need in depth analysis you fucking twat.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2024, 09:33 AM

I don't need in depth analysis you fucking twat.

See? For all we know Toxigen just randomly says stuff, hopes it's correct, and then attacks everybody to make it seem like he is correct. He certainly does the attacking part, and he has been wrong in the past.

He needs to back up his claims with more than insults if people are going to take him seriously. This is especially true since he is a confirmed troll now. Just look at his signature.

Toxigen

06-14-2024, 12:35 PM

and he has been wrong in the past.

wrong again my beautiful sperg

fortior

06-14-2024, 08:13 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2024, 10:36 PM

I still think that assuming the presence/utility of another class by just saying you’re pocketing them is not following the spirit of the question. If you can pocket rez or coth you can pocket TL or malo too, the most objective thing would be to limit your available tools to exclusively the classes you picked

I am just looking at the reality of P99. Plenty of pocket Clerics, Mages, Druids, and Wizards already exist. Making guild bots has been a thing for many years.

Clerics, Mages, Druids, and Wizards can provide most of their major utility before level 60 and without expensive gear/spells.

There aren't a lot of new people coming to the server either, so unless some random asshole deletes a guild bot, these pocket characters aren't going anywhere.

The most powerful four player caster groups are already powerful enough to steamroll the content they are fighting all the way up to 60. Having an arbitrary rule about no pocket characters isn't going to make your experience challenging in any way.

If you want a challenging group, you wouldn't be picking four strong casters.

OP has also never specifically stated they were against pocket characters, nor was it in either his original post or the title of the thread. It's fair game.

fortior

06-15-2024, 04:32 AM

Well it’s just not really creative to look at it this way. Instead of following the restrictions you just add in more classes and handwave it away with Air Bud tier reasoning.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-15-2024, 10:10 AM

Well it’s just not really creative to look at it this way. Instead of following the restrictions you just add in more classes and handwave it away with Air Bud tier reasoning.

Can you point to where OP says "No pocket characters?". It's not in the title of the thread, the initial post, or any of the replies OP gave.

I don't think you have the right to make up a restriction and enforce it as if it were part of OP's question.

That would be like saying " There is a restriction of no charming allowed while playing". OP never said this, but for some reason you want this as a restriction, so you just tell people it is a restriction of this thread.

bcbrown

06-15-2024, 01:05 PM

plzrelax

06-15-2024, 01:33 PM

4 wizards in an outdoor zone for leveling

Duik

06-15-2024, 09:54 PM

4 wizards in an outdoor zone for leveling

Only if virtually limitless mobs and great mana regen.
Still is just 4 soloing chars chatting /g.

Vexenu

06-16-2024, 01:51 PM

Can you point to where OP says "No pocket characters?". It's not in the title of the thread, the initial post, or any of the replies OP gave.

I don't think you have the right to make up a restriction and enforce it as if it were part of OP's question.

That would be like saying " There is a restriction of no charming allowed while playing". OP never said this, but for some reason you want this as a restriction, so you just tell people it is a restriction of this thread.
The spirit of the question DEMANDS that you only respond with FOUR classes. That is the entire purpose of the discussion; that limitation is the only reason there is any debate whatsoever. Otherwise there are no limitations, and we should then assume that all four players in the theoretical group have access to full accounts of alts and guildmates to help them in whatever situation they face. In that case, there is nothing to even talk about, because it doesn't matter what they play. They could have a group of four Rogues, and as soon as they ran into some difficulty, they could swap in literally any other configuration of classes. The entire question then becomes moot.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 03:07 PM

The spirit of the question DEMANDS that you only respond with FOUR classes. That is the entire purpose of the discussion; that limitation is the only reason there is any debate whatsoever. Otherwise there are no limitations, and we should then assume that all four players in the theoretical group have access to full accounts of alts and guildmates to help them in whatever situation they face. In that case, there is nothing to even talk about, because it doesn't matter what they play. They could have a group of four Rogues, and as soon as they ran into some difficulty, they could swap in literally any other configuration of classes. The entire question then becomes moot.

You are not the ultimate authority on this thread, and thus have no power to assume such restrictions. This is just your opinion on the matter. OP has replied to this thread multiple times, and hasn't banned pocket characters yet.

A group of four individual players with four primary characters that are casters/priests are the only restrictions thus far. These are the limitations, which I have been working in. The four primary characters get most of the loot, and are leveled to 60 with full spellbooks. This is not the case with pocket characters.

Your idea that pocket characters are the same as regular characters is nonsense. Pocket characters are not usually level 60 raid geared toons with full spell books. They are hastily leveled non 60 characters that are minimally geared to supply the group with some necessities when the occasion is called for. Reses, CHing, and CoTHs should be rarely needed, which is why it is a waste to level a Mage to 60 just for the occasional CoTH. It's easier to stop at level 55 and just move the Mage around occasionally. The Cleric only needs to be level 49 to have access to 90% Res and CH. You don't need to get them an epic for the extra 6% res. A group of four casters shouldn't be dying often.

If someone wants to powergame by creating the best group they can, there is no reason to assume they cannot have pocket characters. Plenty of people do it already.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 04:10 PM

Otherwise there are no limitations, and we should then assume that all four players in the theoretical group have access to full accounts of alts and guildmates to help them in whatever situation they face. In that case, there is nothing to even talk about, because it doesn't matter what they play.

I am going to dismantle this argument more directly. It is easy to disprove, and I am not sure why people keep trying to make it.

There are four different character types the community generally agrees upon. They are categorized differently because they operate differently:

1. Main Characters - These are the characters you play the most, and invest the most resources into. You don't normally share your account information for Main Characters.

2. Alternate Characters - These are the characters you play less often, but still pour resources into. These can become Main Characters one day if you like them enough. You don't normally share your account information for Alternate Characters.

3. Mules - These are low level characters which store items that your Main and Alternate Characters cannot hold. You don't normally share your account information for Mules.

4. Pocket Characters - These characters are specifically designed to be geared and leveled as minimally as possible, so they can provide utility when needed. You DO share the account information for Pocket Characters, so they can res your character for example. This is due to the restriction of being unable to res yourself without another player's help for most classes. Because you share your Pocket Character's account information, you don't want to have a bunch of expensive items on a Pocket Character. You never know when people who have access to your account will steal or destroy stuff.

It's not accurate to try and claim Pocket Characters are somehow equivalent to Main/Alternate Characters, and thus the discussion becomes moot when you include them. They are not the same. The spirit of the discussion involves four individual players and four Main/Alt Characters that are casters/priests. If these four individual players have Mules and/or Pocket Characters, this does not invalidate the four Main/Alt Characters they are playing most of the time. People do have a Main Character Cleric and a Pocket Cleric if they want to keep their Main Character Cleric's account information private, but still want a Pocket Cleric around to res their other characters.

Vexenu

06-16-2024, 04:22 PM

Everyone: Four characters

DSM: Let me tell you why four characters does not actually mean "four characters"

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 04:27 PM

Everyone: Four characters

DSM: Let me tell you why four characters does not actually mean "four characters"

You just need to read this post:

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3688388&postcount=4706

It rebuts your argument completely. We do no say this group isn't allowed mules to store their items lol. The same thing applies to pocket characters, which are different from main/alternate characters.

bcbrown

06-16-2024, 04:28 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 04:34 PM

This entire discussion is nothing but opinion, and Vexenu's opinion is as valid as anyone else's. You of course are free to go on advocating including pocket characters in your analysis, but it seems most people who have expressed an opinion on the matter are in favor of disregarding pocket characters.

People are free to express their opinions. But they cannot claim "no pocket characters" is a hard requirement of the thread. This has been done in the thread to dismiss what I am saying.

Unlike them, I am not restricting their opinions. I am simply pointing out they are wrong when they say pocket characters are prohibited in this thread.

They are also wrong to equivocate Main/Alt Characters to Pocket Characters, as explained here https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3688388&postcount=4706

I also disagree with your premise that everything is opinion. We are dealing in facts too, and we cannot say facts of the game are opinions.

Someone can say a group of four clerics using rusty weapons to melee is the best group, because they like the playstyle. If they simply say it is their opinion, that is fine. If they make a factual claim that this group composition and rusty weapon strategy is factually the fastest leveling group possible, they have crossed from opinion into a factual claim. People can measure which groups compositions and strategies work the best to disprove this factual claim.

bcbrown

06-16-2024, 04:45 PM

They are also wrong to equivocate Main/Alt Characters to Pocket Characters, as explained here https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3688388&postcount=4706

Equivocate isn't the word you're looking for here: "To express one's self in terms which admit of different interpretations." You might be looking for "equivalent": "alike in significance and value; of the same import and meaning", although that's an adjective, and not a verb. If you need a verb, I would suggest "equate": "to represent as equal or equivalent".

Vexenu

06-16-2024, 05:00 PM

You just need to read this post:

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3688388&postcount=4706

It rebuts your argument completely. We do no say this group isn't allowed mules to store their items lol. The same thing applies to pocket characters, which are different from main/alternate characters.
A mule is fundamentally different than an alt or pocket, as the mule essentially functions only an extension of the player's bank, and not as a playable character. Indeed, this is so much the case that the race and class of a mule is almost completely irrelevant (excepting those who specifically roll level 5 Bard mules to be able to Selos and move while encumbered).

If I asked you, "DSM, if you could only pack four things in your suitcase, what would they be?" I would not expect you to reply with, "I would pack A, B, C and D in my suitcase, but then I would also carry X, Y and Z in my pockets," as doing so completely evades the purpose of the question, which is to spur debate over the value of various options given the artificially imposed restraints. Similarly, when we have a thread about the best four person group, it is implied within the framework of the question itself that we limit our replies to four classes.

By insisting that your response be allowed to include pocket characters and alts, you are flatly disregarding the spirit of the question at hand, are disrespecting the OP and all the other posters in the thread, as well as the forum itself. It is the equivalent of attending an art exhibition, projectile vomiting all over a blank canvas and proudly declaring to the stunned and disgusted crowd that, "Look everyone, I can make art too!"

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 05:00 PM

Equivocate isn't the word you're looking for here: "To express one's self in terms which admit of different interpretations." You might be looking for "equivalent": "alike in significance and value; of the same import and meaning", although that's an adjective, and not a verb. If you need a verb, I would suggest "equate": "to represent as equal or equivalent".

I specifically used equivocate. Their argument revolves around describing characters in a vague manner, to remove the differences between character types.

But we are not here to discuss vocabulary.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 05:08 PM

A mule is fundamentally different than an alt or pocket, as the mule essentially functions only an extension of the player's bank, and not as a playable character. Indeed, this is so much the case that the race and class of a mule is almost completely irrelevant (excepting those who specifically roll level 5 Bard mules to be able to Selos and move while encumbered).

If I asked you, "DSM, if you could only pack four things in your suitcase, what would they be?" I would not expect you to reply with, "I would pack A, B, C and D in my suitcase, but then I would also carry X, Y and Z in my pockets," as doing so completely evades the purpose of the question, which is to spur debate over the value of various options given the artificially imposed restraints. Similarly, when we have a thread about the best four person group, it is implied within the framework of the question itself that we limit our replies to four classes.

By insisting that your response be allowed to include pocket characters and alts, you are flatly disregarding the spirit of the question at hand, are disrespecting the OP and all the other posters in the thread, as well as the forum itself. It is the equivalent of attending an art exhibition, projectile vomiting all over a blank canvas and proudly declaring to the stunned and disgusted crowd that, "Look everyone, I can make art too!"

I am glad to see you agree that different character types exist, as you agree Mules are different from Main/Alt Characters.

I haven't said "You can bring your level 60 raid geared Warrior to help this group" anywhere in this thread, so I am not sure why you keep assuming that. It sounds like you don't understand the difference between a pocket character and an alt/main character. You need to read my post more carefully, so you can understand what a pocket character is:

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3688388&postcount=4706

No, I am not disrespecting this thread/forum by talking about pocket characters, which are a common strategy in P99. OP did not exclude them, and you cannot make this exclusion for OP.

Finally, I am not sure how I can evade the question of "what are you going to pack in your suitcase?" by telling you exactly what I am packing lol. Telling someone "This is what's in my suitcase, and I also put my Wallet in my pockets for easy access", is not an evasion. You are answering the question and providing additonal information.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 07:43 PM

To Vexenu, I think you are getting too hung up on an extreme interpetation of the question posed in this thread. When looking at your luggage example, examine it a bit more critically. Almost everybody has keys and a wallet. You use your keys for your house/appartment and/or your car. You use your wallet for money. People also need to wear clothes in public, so you must have clothing on as well. You are most likely wearing shoes too.

What you are doing is taking the question of "What are the four most important items you would take while traveling?" to the most literal extreme. When you do this, we know that everybody is going to put Wallet, Keys, Clothes, and Shoes as their first four items. This is obviously against the spirit of the question, as it is really asking "What are the first four items you would put into your suitcase, assuming you have the common things everybody has?"

There is nothing wrong with saying: "I acknowledge that I have Shoes on, Clothes on, a Wallet in my pocket, and keys in my pocket. Excluding these obvious items, my top four picks for the suitcase would be A, B, C, and D." This ensures people understand you have already thought about these items, and are not excluding them from the suitcase for some reason. This also shows you may be including specific items because you know you have Clothes, Shoes, a Wallet, and Keys.

Mules and Pocket Characters are the same. I am pointing out the obvious that Mules and Pocket Characters exist. Their existance is informing my decision of which four classes I would pick.

Nobody has suggested putting a Druid/Wizard into the group to sell items in EC quickly via teleport due to everybody's banks/bags being full.This is because we already acknowledge that this group of four players can just make mules to store more stuff. This lessens the utility of a Druid/Wizard, but everybody agrees this is fair because they make mules anyway.

You can think of pocket characters in the same manner. It is a common practice to make pocket clerics for Ressurection, because it is fairly cheap and easy to make a level 49 Cleric for this purpose. This lessens the utility of a Cleric, but people agree this is fair because they make pocket clerics anyway.

It is not easy or cheap to make a level 60 Torpor Shaman with Torpor and raid gear for use as a pocket character, so it isn't comparable to suggest a level 49 pocket cleric is the same as a level 60 Torpor Shaman with raid gear.

Penish

06-16-2024, 09:44 PM

i can see why you dont have a job

lol

DeathsSilkyMist

06-16-2024, 09:49 PM

i can see why you dont have a job

lol

Penish knows nothing about my personal life, he is just trolling. Please disregard his nonsense.

Trexller

06-16-2024, 10:24 PM

i can see why you dont have a job

lol

p0sT tHe v1d30

Troxx

06-18-2024, 05:58 PM

Oh lawdy lawdy

(Post the video!)

Toolbag McGee 400+ pages later still advocating for pocket clerics so he can shoehorn a shaman into a group that otherwise has no rez.

Troxx

06-18-2024, 06:01 PM

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.

So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.

I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

I stand by my first post from page 3.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 06:07 PM

Oh lawdy lawdy

(Post the video!)

Toolbag McGee 400+ pages later still advocating for pocket clerics so he can shoehorn a shaman into a group that otherwise has no rez.

Here is Troxx trying to pretend pocket characters don't exist, so he can shoehorn in a Cleric/Mage instead of other classes that cannot be pocketed easily.

Necromancers have Res as well, in case you didn't know.

Troxx doesn't understand group dynamics well enough to know why an Enchanter/Shaman combo is good, based on his previous analysis. Nor does he understand how much DPS is typically needed in a group.

He also doesn't understand the word "redundancy". He is advocating for 2 enchanters, while complaining about spell overlap from a Shaman. He forgets that two Enchanters have more spell overlap than a Shaman/Enchanter.

When multiple people can cast a spell like slow, you can slow multiple mobs in camp simultaneously. You can also free up a spell slot on a caster for something else if that is not needed. A Shaman slowing allows an Enchanter to focus more on pet control and cc.

Troxx

06-18-2024, 06:30 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 06:48 PM

I’m sorry you’re upset that shamans don’t fit into this ideal group. Unfortunately I don’t think you’re smart enough to understand the why behind this even if this thread were to live another 4,722 additional posts (half or more of which would still be yours).

Best thread ever :D

I am sorry Mages don't fit into this group, and can be pocketed as CoTH bots. Shamans certainly fit, as Enchanter/Shaman/Monk is already one of the strongest trios out there for content that doesn't need Warrior Discs.

Swap the Monk for a Necro to work within the thread and you have the same group. Fourth member is flexible, as there isn't any content I can think of that needs four players instead of three.

Remember when you also admitted you would take a Shaman/Enchanter combo over a Mage?

For 99% of group content and a 6 man group I would take a well geared warrior, cleric, shaman, rogue, monk and enchanter. Sub out monk for an epic bard if they are any good.

There isn't really a reason to make this six player group with a Shaman if you actually believed what you were saying about Shamans and their contribution to the group.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114

Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.

The problem is you are an admitted troll, so we can't really take anything you say seriously. You have no problem saying whatever you think will troll someone, regardless of the truth.

Troxx

06-18-2024, 07:25 PM

Remember when you also admitted you would take a Shaman/Enchanter combo over a Mage?

Warrior monk rogue ench shaman cleric is not restricted to the whole “4 person all caster group” concept.

It isn’t relevant to this thread at all.

Moving goalposts again?

Vexenu

06-18-2024, 08:35 PM

Let's be honest, ENC/ENC/CLR is such a busted trio that the fourth player hardly matters, anyway. Assuming those first three are skilled players, whatever else you add at that point isn't really going to be carrying their weight in comparison. Mage would be nice for some extra DPS, but with two well-controlled charm pets it's kind of overkill. Necro adds some DPS and utility, but just like with the Mage, it's not really needed. This is why I like fortior's suggestion of the Wizard, because for leveling you don't really need to use him anyway (although he can still contribute somewhat with stuns on charm break, root CC, snares and flux staff aggro ripping), but at endgame he's suddenly super useful for mobility, TL boxes, Hate ports and burning down big mobs. ENC/ENC/CLR/XXX will be a powerful group regardless of the fourth man, but ENC/ENC/CLR/WIZ is a gank squad par excellence that really gets full value out of the Wiz more than any other class. Just four dudes just porting around Norrath sniping named at will.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 09:18 PM

Warrior monk rogue ench shaman cleric is not restricted to the whole “4 person all caster group” concept.

It isn’t relevant to this thread at all.

Moving goalposts again?

It's 100% relevant. You have to explain why a Shaman/Enchanter combo suddenly doesn't work in a four player caster group, but it works fine in a six player group.

Remember saying:

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

How does this nonsensical assesment change in your six player group example? It must change, because otherwise why would you pick a Shaman?

What are the strengths of an Enchanter/Shaman combo? Please explain.

bcbrown

06-18-2024, 10:06 PM

Surely you'd agree that some combinations of classes can have synergy, while other combinations do not? For example, a duo of two paladins or a duo of two rogues has less synergy than a duo of a paladin and a rogue, because a rogues benefit from someone else tanking, while paladins are good tanks but do not really benefit from someone else tanking? Or, say a shaman has good synergy with any melee class, because the shaman has fantastic stat buffs that are helpful for any melee class?

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 10:16 PM

bcbrown

06-18-2024, 10:20 PM

So you agree that shaman classes have a synergy with melee classes?

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 10:25 PM

So you agree that shaman classes have a synergy with melee classes?

We are discussing Shaman/Enchanter synnergies. I'll wait for Troxx to respond, as his assessment of Shamans doesn't match with his six player group composition.

bcbrown

06-18-2024, 10:38 PM

Surely you cannot deny that shamans have a synergy with melee classes. Shamans have sta/str/agi/dex buffs no one else has.

The 6 player group has 3 out of 6 characters who have a melee synergy with shamans. The 4 player all-caster group has zero characters who have a melee synergy with shamans.

You have to explain why a Shaman/Enchanter combo suddenly doesn't work in a four player caster group, but it works fine in a six player group.

These aren't the right claims. It's not "suddenly doesn't work", it's "is less valuable than some other class". It's not "works fine", it's "provides more value than any other class in this spot".

Troxx (or anyone) has to explain why a shaman is the best choice for that sixth spot in a six-player group with three melees, but is not the best choice for the fourth spot in a 4-player all-caster group. A suitable explanation is that when you add melee classes, shamans become better.

I'm not sure what Troxx would say, but I bet it's similar to my answer.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 10:47 PM

Troxx (or anyone) has to explain why a shaman is the best choice for that sixth spot in a six-player group.

Indeed. That is what we are asking. We need to determine why Troxx has a discrepancy in his assessment of Shamans, and what his thoughts are about Shaman/Enchanter synnergies.

Then we can decide if his logic of why a Shaman doesn't work in the four man group has merit.

bcbrown

06-18-2024, 10:56 PM

The "discrepancy" is that when you add melee classes, shamans become better.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 10:58 PM

The "discrepancy" is that when you add melee classes, shamans become better.

That is not Troxx's opinion, that is your opinion. I am asking for Troxx's opinion. Once we get that I'll be happy to discuss this point.

questever

06-18-2024, 11:09 PM

Somone is obsessed with this "Troxx"

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2024, 11:17 PM

Somone is obsessed with this "Troxx"

The opposite is true. Troxx attacks me in any thread I respond in, even when he has nothing to say on-topic.

I have to specify who I am talking about, or Troxx will twist my words and lie about what I've said.

I never do this to him, and would be happy to see him stop acting like this. Then people can actually have normal discussions without thread bloat via insults and silly gifs from Troxx.

I hope one day he will let his obsession go.

Bcbrown is a bit obsessed over me too. He has a strange habit of mostly responding to my posts. He doesn't really talk to other posters, and will always tend to agree with specific posters like Troxx. It is an interesting pattern.

Trexller

06-19-2024, 12:07 AM

people actually do multi-box the forums

Toxigen

06-19-2024, 06:27 AM

oh yeah boys 500 pages here we come

the true end game answer for named snipes is cleric / enc / enc / wiz without a doubt - there is zero room for debate on this one

i think the more interesting hypothetical is if this group is building a stable of characters and wants to use 4 unique classes

its still obviously enc + cleric, could argue mage for coth bot, necro for corpse summon bot, druid for port/potg bot, etc

cleric / enc / druid / necro would make for a bonkers chardonk crew...you could XP in there from 52-60 and make some sweet monies along the way while keeping it spicy / challenging / fun with basically zero pain on wipes

save the shaman for when this hypothetical group of friends wants to do another melee-focused round of 4: shaman + bard + monk + whatever

Jimjam

06-19-2024, 07:43 AM

The interesting thing about wiz / dru is they have so much overlap you’d think they’d be in competition, but actually they end up synergising okay.

I reckon with the no pockets / no dupes stipulation cleric / enc / wiz / dru would be really decent … if planar animals were a little bit more animal charmable ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

plzrelax

06-19-2024, 08:52 AM

Would the answer to the prompt change if PvP is involved? I know eq pvp sucks in general but would any specific classes or combos open up if we add pvp as a factor?

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2024, 10:15 AM

the true end game answer for named snipes is cleric / enc / enc / wiz without a doubt - there is zero room for debate on this one

Replace the Cleric with a Shaman for the snipe team. Then the Shaman and each enchanter can solo camp three different camps when harder targets aren't up.

The Cleric can't solo, so you'd lose a camp because the Cleric would need to be stapled to an Enchanter, and Enchanters can solo without the Cleric. The Cleric wouldn't be doing too much in this forced pairing most of the time.

The Shaman and Enchanter can pair up if an Enchanter needs help with something.

Wizard can move the pocket Cleric and/or Mage around when needed.

Can you actually name a target that a Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter team could do that a Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter team could not do?

Troxx

06-19-2024, 11:01 AM

lol

Nobody is giving up cleric for shaman in this setup. Complete heal for pets, multiple lines of stuns to include aoe stun, rez, DA, powerful emergency heals …

Jimjam

06-19-2024, 11:38 AM

lol

Nobody is giving up cleric for shaman in this setup. Complete heal for pets, multiple lines of stuns to include aoe stun, rez, DA, powerful emergency heals …

I like paci and atone on my cleric :) sometimes the enc just isn’t able to do it.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2024, 12:13 PM

lol

Nobody is giving up cleric for shaman in this setup. Complete heal for pets, multiple lines of stuns to include aoe stun, rez, DA, powerful emergency heals …

Tell us a specific camp that needs the Cleric CHing the pet. The Shaman can tank the mob, removing the need for the pet to take damage. This increases pet damage too, because the pet is hitting the mob from behind. Shaman can buff the pet with Avatar as well.

Plenty of people are fine with dropping the Cleric. Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is an extremely powerful trio. No Cleric needed as a main character. Pocket Cleric is more than capable of handling the occasional res and pet CH.

Troxx

06-19-2024, 04:15 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2024, 04:18 PM

#Im-a-shaman
#I-cant-complete-heal
#i can’t cast rez
#my-best-heal (torpor and requires 60) is also a slow
#i cannot cast stun
#my fast heal sucks compared to a cleric
#Awww shamans need not apply …

Awww fuck I do not fit into this very narrow theoretical best 4 person all caster group …

#SadSilkyMist

As you can see, Troxx is unable to explain his position, and cannot name even one camp that needs a Cleric CHing an Enchanter pet.

He is also unable to acknowledge that pocket Clerics are common practice, because people recognize you don't need a Cleric main in your group for reses. Necromancers can res as well.

Troxx doesn't understand the Shaman can tank the mob and Torpor themselves, which means the pets are not slowed, and not taking damage. This also allows the pets to do more damage via hitting the mob from behind. The Shaman can buff the pets too.

Thank you for conceding that you are unable to explain why you think a Cleric is better than a Shaman in this group. You wouldn't be trolling if this was easy for you to explain.

Remember that Troxx is an admitted troll, and thus we cannot simply take his word for anything:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3654337&postcount=114

Look guys, I’m an honest fella. I will readily admit to having engaged in trolling behavior with regards to DSM. You all have functioning brain cells … so I know that you all already know this. I also know that many of you also have done this. I’m not apologetic in the slightest sense of the word either.

He needs to back up his position with facts and logic, not typical trolling.

Vexenu

06-19-2024, 07:40 PM

cleric / enc / druid / necro would make for a bonkers chardonk crew...you could XP in there from 52-60 and make some sweet monies along the way while keeping it spicy / challenging / fun with basically zero pain on wipes
Yeah, this would probably be the most fun but also still very powerful caster group without dual enchanters. Obviously abusing the triple charm when possible. But even when unable to charm, the Druid and Necro add nice utility.

save the shaman for when this hypothetical group of friends wants to do another melee-focused round of 4: shaman + bard + monk + whatever
Paladin or Rogue...tough call. Probably depends on how good the Bard is.

7thGate

06-19-2024, 09:29 PM

Tell us a specific camp that needs the Cleric CHing the pet. The Shaman can tank the mob, removing the need for the pet to take damage. This increases pet damage too, because the pet is hitting the mob from behind. Shaman can buff the pet with Avatar as well.

This is kind of an interesting question, because you need to find something that actually needs the extra power from the cleric, at which point you're going to start to have questions about whether you can actually even do the camp at all with a cleric/ench/ench/X team.

For example, I actually think Derakor the Vindicator is doable by Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Druid, and he's very clearly not doable by Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Druid. But that's right at the bleeding edge of what's possible, I don't think anyone has actually done that before.

There's some other stuff I can think of that might qualify, but some of them are pretty scary for a 4 man.

I think you might be able to do HoT minis with charmed hatchlings, but the pull and setup would be some crazy nonsense. If you can get Essedera pulled somehow (quad mage run in and back up to train out to west, maybe?) then I think you can have a cleric do a picture room trainout with brazier pet and gate to ToV entrance on tag. I think cleric CH on charmed pets can stay ahead of incoming damage once slowed, but I don't think torpor can.

I've heard Sleeper's Tomb trash clears leverage clerics well because charmed pets have like 30k hp, but I don't have a key so I'm not sure about details there.

Neb, maybe. He does like 700 dps while hasted, so probably 100 or so slowed? Probably too much for just Torp, but likely ok for CH.

Edit: Maybe Vaniki? Hits a little harder than Neb, but not a lot. Might be able to do with Cleric/Ench/Ench/Magician?

There's probably more, but those are the things that come to mind.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2024, 10:08 PM

This is kind of an interesting question, because you need to find something that actually needs the extra power from the cleric, at which point you're going to start to have questions about whether you can actually even do the camp at all with a cleric/ench/ench/X team.

For example, I actually think Derakor the Vindicator is doable by Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter/Druid, and he's very clearly not doable by Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Druid. But that's right at the bleeding edge of what's possible, I don't think anyone has actually done that before.

There's some other stuff I can think of that might qualify, but some of them are pretty scary for a 4 man.

I think you might be able to do HoT minis with charmed hatchlings, but the pull and setup would be some crazy nonsense. If you can get Essedera pulled somehow (quad mage run in and back up to train out to west, maybe?) then I think you can have a cleric do a picture room trainout with brazier pet and gate to ToV entrance on tag. I think cleric CH on charmed pets can stay ahead of incoming damage once slowed, but I don't think torpor can.

I've heard Sleeper's Tomb trash clears leverage clerics well because charmed pets have like 30k hp, but I don't have a key so I'm not sure about details there.

Neb, maybe. He does like 700 dps while hasted, so probably 100 or so slowed? Probably too much for just Torp, but likely ok for CH.

Edit: Maybe Vaniki? Hits a little harder than Neb, but not a lot. Might be able to do with Cleric/Ench/Ench/Magician?

There's probably more, but those are the things that come to mind.

I always appreciate your posts on the bleeding edge gameplay. It's awesome! I also agree it's tough to think of a camp where the Clerics power is really needed, while also being doable with a four player caster group (no Warrior).

My assumption going into this thread has always been a relatively "normal" group. They'd do the obvious money camps like Fungi King, maybe go into Hate if they are feeling courageous.

Doing a low man Vindi is awesome, but not worth the time/effort/guild competition for most players. Vindi BP is like 100k, but it would be easier to just get and sell a few Fungis. This is more of a "because it's awesome!" kill, rather than a normal thing a group would be doing.

Once you are at the point where you are trying to low-man vindi, you probably aren't restricting yourself in terms of group size and classes. You'll do whatever it takes to get the job done.