Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[eqravenprince]

And go

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

[Crede]

Oh this one is easy. Enchanter, Cleric, Mage, Necro.

Enchanter focuses on dps/slows & mez when needed
Cleric will be nuking most of the time but cheal is cool too
Mage provides malo/dps & coth when needed
Necro primary puller/cc & summon/shadowbond when needed

[zelld52]

Enchanter, Enchanter, Enchanter, Cleric.

3 charmed pets, cleric for oh shit. Extra chanters as disposable pullers

[Keebz]

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.


This is the answer. But I'd cut the Shaman for a Mage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is the answer. But I'd cut the Shaman for a Mage.

Unless you need CoTH, Shaman is objectively better. A Torpor Shaman is a really good way to reduce how much mana your Enchanters and Cleric are using. They Malo and Slow (so the Enchanters don't have to), Heal (so the Cleric doesn't always have to) and self-regenerate their own mana. Plus the buffs and heals help keep the party going. If you need a pet for tanking charm breaks, Shaman pet can tank just fine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . They can DPS fine too if you are doing well with Epic DoT, Pox, Bane, JBB, etc.

But I agree if you do need CoTH, dropping the Shaman would probably be the right move, since Mage can take over the Malo duty.

[Keebz]

Well with 2 ench, you have slow covered and you don't strictly need it because, you have 2 charmed pets doing the tanking. Consequently, the buffs don't matter because the pets are tanking. You'd literally be there to Malo and back up heal.

Meanwhile, with 2 charmed pets, you need a way to handle breaks. A beefy mage pet handily takes care of that. A shaman can, uh, root if you have room. Your wolf pet is not tanking a mob and a hasted pet for very long. Not a great value add. Mage/Ench/Cleric has been the meta for some time now because of this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well with 2 ench, you have slow covered and you don't strictly need it because, you have 2 charmed pets doing the tanking. Consequently, the buffs don't matter because the pets are tanking. You'd literally be there to Malo and back up heal.

Meanwhile, with 2 charmed pets, you need a way to handle breaks. A beefy mage pet handily takes care of that. A shaman can, uh, root if you have room. Your wolf pet is not tanking a mob and a hasted pet for very long. Not a great value add. Mage/Ench/Cleric has been the meta for some time now because of this.

The main thing it comes down to is mana usage. Shamans self recover mana much faster, so the Enchanters and Cleric only need to do what is required. A Shaman slowing would be better because then Enchanters don't have to cast it at all. Same with healing, you only need to CH in some cases. Otherwise Torpor works fine. This saves a ton of mana if you are constantly killing. This is because a Torpor Shaman will recover that mana much faster than an Enchanter or Cleric, even with Clarity. As I showed in the video, the wolf pet is very capable of tanking. It has 2000hp. You can also Torpor it, which helps make up for it's lower HP than an Earth pet. Shaman can give the pet FoS too, which would be an extra 400 HP.

The question OP hasn't answered is what level range. I agree Mage/Ench/Cleric is better at lower levels, because a Shaman wouldn't have Torpor. But at 60 Mage loses the edge, unless you need CoTH.

[Keebz]

Showing your pet can tank 1 slowed cliff golem does not mean it can tank 1 slowed cliff golem + a hasted pet or two.

Once again, you don't need to slow everything because you have 2 charmed pets (and a mage pet) putting out insane DPS.

Back up heals are cool, I'll give you that. Mage rods are also super useful when mana gets tight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Showing your pet can tank 1 slowed cliff golem does not mean it can tank 1 slowed cliff golem + a hasted pet or two.

Once again, you don't need to slow everything because you have 2 charmed pets (and a mage pet) putting out insane DPS.

Back up heals are cool, I'll give you that. Mage rods are also super useful when mana gets tight.

Slow helps reduces how often you need to heal your Charmed pets, and it reduces the chance of your party dying when shit hits the fan. With a Torpor Shaman you can slow more often because you can just recover that mana really fast. You slow less without a Shaman because you want to conserve mana. Shamans also have an AoE slow for when shit hits the fan.

Mod rods are indeed great, but if you don't need to cast spells at all due to having a Shaman, that will save you more mana, especially since Mod Rods reduce the Mage's mana, which has to be recovered too.

Shaman pet + Shaman DoTs deal good damage too, so it isn't like a Mage is putting out way more DPS. They are still mostly a single target DPS toon, like Shamans.

Again, Shaman pet is pretty tanky. 2400 HP (with FoS) and Torpor is no slouch when it comes to off-tanking.

But as I said before, level range matters. I agree Mage is better before 60.

[Crede]

Unless you need CoTH, Shaman is objectively better. A Torpor Shaman is a really good way to reduce how much mana your Enchanters and Cleric are using. They Malo and Slow (so the Enchanters don't have to), Heal (so the Cleric doesn't always have to) and self-regenerate their own mana. Plus the buffs and heals help keep the party going. If you need a pet for tanking charm breaks, Shaman pet can tank just fine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . They can DPS fine too if you are doing well with Epic DoT, Pox, Bane, JBB, etc.

But I agree if you do need CoTH, dropping the Shaman would probably be the right move, since Mage can take over the Malo duty.

Shaman is a waste. All these things you speak of, the cleric/enchanter/mage can handle. The more the shaman does, the more mana the other classes will have just sitting there doing nothing with. Enchanter/cleric will have plenty of mana for slows/heals.

Mage can malo & do superior dps, and provide rods/coth when needed. Add in mage epic pet eventually, and it's gg.

Only situation where I like shaman more than mage is if you need to keep both torp/cheal goin to win...but I doubt that's the case for 99% of situations.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman is a waste. All these things you speak of, the cleric/enchanter/mage can handle. The more the shaman does, the more mana the other classes will have just sitting there doing nothing with. Enchanter/cleric will have plenty of mana for slows/heals.

Mage can malo & do superior dps, and provide rods/coth when needed. Add in mage epic pet eventually, and it's gg.

Only situation where I like shaman more than mage is if you need to keep both torp/cheal goin to win...but I doubt that's the case for 99% of situations.

Having mana sitting is good when Charm can break at any time:) Your group is dead if you can't control the situation. Shaman gives you much better consistency, and you don't really lose DPS when compared to a Mage. Remember Shaman's have plenty of DoTs, two free damage clickies, and a pet. This is at level 60 with Torpor.

Mage is better before level 60 or if you need CoTH.

[Crede]

Having mana sitting is good when Charm can break at any time:) Your group is dead if you can't control the situation. Shaman gives you much better consistency, and you don't really lose DPS when compared to a Mage. Remember Shaman's have plenty of DoTs and two free damage clickies. This is at level 60.

Mage is only better before level 60 or if you need CoTH.

That's what a beefy mage pet is for, to provide that security blanket if charm breaks.

I don't see shaman providing the same level of sustained dps at 60 when compared to a c2'd mage with their final water/epic pet.

But if you have some data I'd like to see it :D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's what a beefy mage pet is for, to provide that security blanket if charm breaks.

I don't see shaman providing the same level of sustained dps at 60 when compared to a c2'd mage with their final water/epic pet.

But if you have some data I'd like to see it :D

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much hehe. Shamans can do fine DPS-wise.

Shaman pet has 2400 HP with FoS, and you can Torpor it. That is decently tanky. A Water pet only has 2500 HP hehe. It is providing security just fine, plus all the Shaman healing/slows/buffs.

I am not considering Epic Pets, because that is just really rare hehe. There are a LOT more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages.

[Danth]

If you already have two charm pets wrecking everything nobody is going to notice or care how much damage anyone else does. Malo is nice. Alternately a necromancer for feign--rezz is nice since it allows the group to keep its camp presence when the charm RNG decides to kill them once in awhile. That'll be such a group's primary cause of failures. Sucks not having ports in a 4 man group but the best way to handle that is have your two most active players level up port alts.

[Crede]

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much hehe. Shamans can do fine DPS-wise.

Shaman pet has 2400 HP with FoS, and you can Torpor it. That is decently tanky. A Water pet only has 2500 HP hehe. It is providing security just fine, plus all the Shaman healing/slows/buffs.

I am not considering Epic Pets, because that is just really rare hehe. There are a LOT more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages.

I'm not denying shamans can do decent dps. But if it's substantially behind a mage providing DS/dots/nukes with a phinny staff water pet(since we're not assuming epics) then there's no point to having them really.

It's hard to know this though, we'd have to see what a shaman vs mage could sustain at 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not denying shamans can do decent dps. But if it's substantially behind a mage providing DS/dots/nukes with a phinny staff water pet(since we're not assuming epics) then there's no point to having them really.

It's hard to know this though, we'd have to see what a shaman vs mage could sustain at 60.

Yeah I would love to see some mage DPS data. I could provide the Shaman DPS data.

[zelld52]

In PoP the best 4 casters / /priest crew was 3 mages + 1 cleric.... or just 4 mages

[Crede]

Yeah I would love to see some mage DPS data. I could provide the Shaman DPS data.

Troxx has a 60 mage and has run many parses, I am betting he can provide this data as well.

[Keebz]

Sucks not having ports in a 4 man group but the best way to handle that is have your two most active players level up port alts.

Between PoM bind, OT hammer and Thurg pots, you can pretty much get anywhere you wanna farm. For the other occasions there's DaP.

[Balimon]

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much hehe. Shamans can do fine DPS-wise.

Shaman pet has 2400 HP with FoS, and you can Torpor it. That is decently tanky. A Water pet only has 2500 HP hehe. It is providing security just fine, plus all the Shaman healing/slows/buffs.

I am not considering Epic Pets, because that is just really rare hehe. There are a LOT more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages.

Water pets have significantly more than 2500 HP when focused. It's well over 3k, I haven't tested but a focused 59 air pet is 2900ish HP. You can't really compare a shaman pet to a focused air/water pet or even a unfocused 57 earth, they are also way higher level which makes a huge difference in damage mitigation.

[Balimon]

Yeah I would love to see some mage DPS data. I could provide the Shaman DPS data.

A max level focused water pet can do 45-50 DPS on Vindi, so for group content you could expect probably closer to 60? 33 point DS is obviously a large amount of DPS but would parse differently on every encounter, and then you can add in nukes situationally. I don't have any parses to offer but I think it's safe to say that a mage could do 70ish at least in a group setting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Water pets have significantly more than 2500 HP when focused. It's well over 3k, I haven't tested but a focused 59 air pet is 2900ish HP. You can't really compare a shaman pet to a focused air/water pet or even a unfocused 57 earth, they are also way higher level which makes a huge difference in damage mitigation.

Torpor also makes a huge difference in mitigation. Shaman pet is suprisingly tanky on P99.

Most DPS is still coming from the Charmed pets. DS doesn't matter if your Water pet is backstabbing.

Thanks for the DPS data though! I'll see what my Shaman does.

[Keebz]

A max level focused water pet can do 45-50 DPS on Vindi, so for group content you could expect probably closer to 60? 33 point DS is obviously a large amount of DPS but would parse differently on every encounter, and then you can add in nukes situationally. I don't have any parses to offer but I think it's safe to say that a mage could do 70ish at least in a group setting.

Can also count the DPS from muzzling the chanter pets if they aren't using something like Tola Robes.

[Raj]

Sorry DSM, but shaman and enchanter together always created a bit of redundancy in classic EQ. 2 chanters + mage + cleric is far more dps/raw power than shammy + 2 chanters + cleric.

It should be no great mystery why...just like the druid in EQ, the shaman is also a hybrid spellcaster. Druid is a cleric/wizard hybrid with a good damage shield, run speed, regen, + minor str buffs for some uniqueness.

In EQ, the shaman is a hybrid of cleric, enchanter, and necro - with potionmaking, stat buffs, run speed buffs, and a nice resistance debuff shared with mages for a bit more uniqueness... in exchange for all this hybridness, there is no paci/charm ability from the parent enchanter class, no CH/rez from parent cleric class just like druid, far less dot lines than necro, far weaker pet than necro.

Shaman is a very powerful class but way too redundant with 2 enchanters and a competent cleric and mage if you're going for some rhetorical optimal combo of spell-casters.

PS With cleric buffs and a competent cleric with c2, a charmed pet should not require torpor in 95% of normal situations with level 60 or near-that enchanters, and torpor nerfs the hell out of any hasted melee's DPS......especially a dual-wielding enchanter hasted charm pet

[Zuranthium]

DS doesn't matter if your Water pet is backstabbing.


You put the damage shield on the Enchanter pet (or whatever tank in a group). Your Ogre Brain strikes yet again.

Can also count the DPS from muzzling the chanter pets

Yep. Mage is way more DPS than a Shaman.

Sorry DSM, but shaman and enchanter together always created a bit of redundancy in classic EQ.

I prefer Shaman over Cleric much of the time for a group where the Enchanter pet isn't tanking. You don't need the C-heal in that case, and in those groups a Shaman contributes more DPS than a Cleric while at the same time keeping people alive. If there is no Mage in the group, then the Shaman also provides resist debuff, making things much smoother with the pet.

[Raj]

In my experience, great enchanters LOVE grouping with very competent clerics more than almost anything else? Malosinia is pretty nice but it's not a very competent cleric w everything a great cleric brings to the table.

[Zuranthium]

I mean sure, Enchanter + Cleric is an incredibly powerful duo, and any group formed around that can do well. I just think Shaman is more optimal a lot of the time if the pet isn't going to be tanking (and thus doesn't benefit from C-heal).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You put the damage shield on the Enchanter pet (or whatever tank in a group). Your Ogre Brain strikes yet again.


Big yikes insulting people. You shouldn't be so aggressive when trying to make points. I made a simple mistake and thought she was talking about pet DPS. Unlike yourself, I can admit when I made a mistake:) DS won't matter much on a slowed mob though, so it's still heavily dependent on the situation.

Muzzles are irrelevant in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, because Tolapumj's Robe is just so cheap. If you want to maximize DPS, you would be using those.

My Shaman does around 35 DPS, so honestly not that much lower than the 40-50 number thrown around. The extra mana saving is going to help your party more by reducing downtime than a bit of extra DPS. The 35 DPS number I am getting is taking into account the fact that I am also doing healing/slowing while face tanking. If I could just do damage without needing to do that due to Enchanter pets tanking, the number would be higher. I could JBB click while DoTs are ticking, or stack more DoTs. Remember, a Torpor Shaman can consistently deal spell damage due to how quickly the regain mana, while a Mage would need to meditate if they are trying to nuke often.

Before level 60 Mage is better, but with Torpor a Shaman is just going to be better for this group. The Enchanter pets are putting out enough DPS. The question is how often can you prevent charm issues, and how consistent can you be. An extra 5-10 DPS isn't going to save your group from bad luck, or med breaks.

[Troxx]

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.


So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.


I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

[Keebz]

So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)


clr/ench/necro/mage is also a strong pick if there's undead to charm (HS for example)

[Crede]

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.


So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.


I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

Good summary, I just said Cleric/Enc/Mage/Nec so you'd have all bases covered. You'd be losing more dps but with 1 charmed pet, 1 mage, and 1 necro pet/charmed pet(if undead) will just destroy anything so i'd rather take the necro over the 2nd enc.

[Troxx]

Troxx has a 60 mage and has run many parses, I am betting he can provide this data as well.

I haven’t parsed mage pets since the nerf but in a standard group combining my dps from nukes and pet dps I’d usually put out 100-120 dps sustained (not factoring in dmg shield). 100-120 is a huge range mind you and this is just an average of fights. Some will be lower in the 80 range and others higher in the 140 range. Burst dps? Cracking well above the 200 is very doable if you’re sitting on the mana and aggro is no concern.

This ignores mage DS which, though not astronomical adds up very efficiently over time. Can’t really parse this but can calculate because every time the mob hits your DS target it adds a fixed amount of damage. Quad and unslowed very healthy damage. Slowed and doubling? Not so much.

But … mages can suffer in. Bad group setup. In a fast chain pulling melee heavy group with no clarity it’s gonna be a lot lower than sitting in a group that has clarity +/- bard. It’s basically then just your pets dps plus your sustained dps potential over time medding at 20 a tick with no buffs. If the pulls never stop you basically baby sit your pet and lob a bomb at slow rates. This is still better dps than most non raid geared melee can manage and certainly higher than a shaman lol.

On the flip side if you’re sitting in a mana rich group with less than chain pulls (ie any modicum of downtime really ramps up potential) … mages take off like a rocket.

Mage dps potential in groups is really only second to charmed pets. They are, however, quite variable depending on group composition and location.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would like to see the actual parse data. One person said 40-70 and Troxx is saying 80-200 lol. I don't believe that. 40-200 is a pretty big range. I would like to know how you are calculating DPS too, make sure we are doing the same math.

[ezigrelnos]

has no one said 4 enchanter yet do you even take damage like one enchanter no pet and only pulls + does mez?

why even bring the cleric/shaman/mage? can oh shit moments happen with 4 coordinated enchanters?

i mean OP said best so i imagine some nice gaming chairs behind those keyboards

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just for perspective, here is a raid parse I pulled up from some old logs:

[Mon Apr 29 20:58:14 2019] Playbook tells the guild, 'Lady Mirenilla in 370s, 312k @843dps --- Jonwayne 25k @98dps --- Vapos 23k @93dps --- Digler 23k @87dps --- Brooksaw 23k @87dps --- Evulsion 22k @85dps --- Vulroth 22k @84dps --- Playbook 19k @71dps --- Wickett 19k @72dps --- Funz 18k @69dps --- Shaolen 17k @67dps'

There is no way a Mage is at 100 DPS when top geared Rogues are barely hitting 100 DPS. Maybe if you are parsing really low/easy mobs. But then Shamans would parse higher too lol.

Please show your parses and how you are doing them.

has no one said 4 enchanter yet do you even take damage like one enchanter no pet and only pulls + does mez?

why even bring the cleric/shaman/mage? can oh shit moments happen with 4 coordinated enchanters?

i mean OP said best so i imagine some nice gaming chairs behind those keyboards

The reason why 4 Enchanters wouldn't be great is because more charmed pets = more chance of getting destroyed if bad luck charm breaks occur. While everything is going your way the group would churn through mobs. But you are going to get some deaths/gates too lol.

[Troxx]

Why are you using a raid parse when we’re talking group content lol. You’re comparing apples to raw fish. Everyone here knows that high ac raid mobs and giant level gaps have a huge impact on pet dps.

We’re talking groups; not raids.

Mage pet by itself puts out a lot more than 40dps. Have you ever actually parsed a high end mage pet DSM. If not, you’d be shocked.

Unless you’re lazy not chain summoning for a max and lazy not keeping up pet haste… you might see some lower numbers then.

Also don’t take my post out of context. Over 200dps on an all out burn on group content (pet plus nukes) is possible followed by a very long Med break.

My preferred nuke was shock of steel 825dmg, 6 second cast, conjugation spec 275 mana. With an Insta click to negate recast time that’s 137.5 dps potential chain cast. For a harder burn but more mana intensive being conjuration spec the 59 nukes comes out to 146.3 dps chain cast. Add in a max summon pet buffed/hasted and masked and you can crack 200dps on an all out burn factoring in DS.

For routine fights it was pet plus a shock of steel or 2 per fight.

100-120 is what I was capable before pet nerf with pet putting out 60-75 of that dps by itself. Remember though … this was back when the max hit on 60 water pet was like 68. It’s lower now.

I didn’t have to calculate anything. GamParse has a live, real time parse function with a heads up display. It also has a function where you can link a player’s dps and their pets dps. The parser will not pick up damage shield damage unless you, the player doing the parsing are the one with the dmg shield and being hit.

It’s not rocket surgery DSM …

[zelld52]

enc, enc, enc, cleric

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why are you using a raid parse when we’re talking group content lol. You’re comparing apples to raw fish. Everyone here knows that high ac raid mobs and giant level gaps have a huge impact on pet dps.

We’re talking groups; not raids.

Mage pet by itself puts out a lot more than 40dps. Have you ever actually parsed a high end mage pet DSM. If not, you’d be shocked.

Unless you’re lazy not chain summoning for a max and lazy not keeping up pet haste… you might see some lower numbers then.

Also don’t take my post out of context. Over 200dps on an all out burn on group content (pet plus nukes) is possible followed by a very long Med break.

My preferred nuke was shock of steel 825dmg, 6 second cast, conjugation spec 275 mana. With an Insta click to negate recast time that’s 137.5 dps potential chain cast. For a harder burn but more mana intensive being conjuration spec the 59 nukes comes out to 146.3 dps chain cast. Add in a max summon pet buffed/hasted and masked and you can crack 200dps on an all out burn factoring in DS.

For routine fights it was pet plus a shock of steel or 2 per fight.

100-120 is what I was capable before pet nerf with pet putting out 60-75 of that dps by itself. Remember though … this was back when the max hit on 60 water pet was like 68. It’s lower now.

I didn’t have to calculate anything. GamParse has a live, real time parse function with a heads up display. It also has a function where you can link a player’s dps and their pets dps. The parser will not pick up damage shield damage unless you, the player doing the parsing are the one with the dmg shield and being hit.

It’s not rocket surgery DSM …

It isn't rocket surgery indeed. But we need to parse the same mob so we can get an accurate comparison. Please post some logs so I can accurately parse my Shaman to the same standard as your parses. I was parsing on WW Dragons, so my DPS is going to be lower than if you are parsing easy 40s mobs.

[ezigrelnos]

The reason why 4 Enchanters wouldn't be great is because more charmed pets = more chance of getting destroyed if bad luck charm breaks occur.

thats why 1 enchanter has no pets & pulls; coordinated voice chat with team means every other enchanter can stun for the broken pet and even if you get 3 broken pets at once thats 4 enchanter stunning so i dont see how any type of rngesus aggro would not instantly get squashed with the insane kit that is stacked gaming enchanters

while the cler/sham try to heal the non-existent dmg and the mag is just a lack of charm dps

[DeathsSilkyMist]

thats why 1 enchanter has no pets & pulls; coordinated voice chat with team means every other enchanter can stun for the broken pet and even if you get 3 broken pets at once thats 4 enchanter stunning so i dont see how any type of rngesus aggro would not instantly get squashed with the insane kit that is stacked gaming enchanters

while the cler/sham try to heal the non-existent dmg and the mag is just a lack of charm dps

Having 3 charm breaks will probably kill your party. Stuns can be resisted, and 3 charmed/hasted pets will melt cloth casters fast. Once one Enchanter dies, you now have an uncharmed pet in camp. This can easily wipe your party.

[ezigrelnos]

max cha, full -mr gear, 3 charm breaks at the exact moment all hasted with 4 enchanters? aoe stun, aoe mez, all mobs are tashed, voice chat to communicate all pulls/breaks/roots, if 4 enchanters cant fix this 3 enchanters and a cleric/sham/mage wont

your positioning is bad or you've picked the wrong camp for 4 enchanters to execute in (tight spacing for charm breaks, indoors)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

max cha, full -mr gear, 3 charm breaks at the exact moment all hasted with 4 enchanters? aoe stun, aoe mez, all mobs are tashed, voice chat to communicate all pulls/breaks/roots, if 4 enchanters cant fix this 3 enchanters and a cleric/sham/mage wont

your positioning is bad or you've picked the wrong camp for 4 enchanters to execute in (tight spacing for charm breaks, indoors)

It happens. If you are in an easy area it doesn't really matter what your group comp is. But in a riskier/higher level zone like Chardok 3x breaks are going to be bad news. That's the point. Nobody cares about what level 40 Enchanters can do hehe, because it's all easy content.

[ezigrelnos]

3x breaks on a 4x enchanter comp voice chat for spell rotation with optimal gear like i dont understand

im sure it happens, but in the best of the best scenario i'd take another enchanter who can aoe stun over heals/dps to secure my life with such an overpowered kit

[DeathsSilkyMist]

3x breaks on a 4x enchanter comp voice chat for spell rotation with optimal gear like i dont understand

im sure it happens, but in the best of the best scenario i'd take another enchanter who can aoe stun over heals/dps to secure my life with such an overpowered kit

The reality is if you get one of those wipe situations it will seriously set you back in terms of how many kills you are getting per hour. The average is what matters at the end of the day, not how far you can push the game at the cost of having too much risk of a wipe.

[Danth]

Not to mention there's only so many activities to do in-game, and I scratch my head trying to think of something you could do with four enchanters that you couldn't do equally as or more consistently with three plus someone else who makes pulls safer or recovery easier. Stuff like chardok royals is done with two enchanters or maybe two plus a cleric. Theory means nothing if there's nowhere to actually apply it. Where would you want a 4-enchanter composition for?

[ezigrelnos]

The reality is if you get one of those wipe situations it will seriously set you back in terms of how many kills you are getting per hour. The average is what matters at the end of the day, not how far you can push the game at the cost of having too much risk of a wipe.

yeah but imagine having to tell people you wiped with 4 enchanters, have you ever heard of such a thing?

you're talking about averages in hypotheticals where 4 enchanters cant handle 3 charm breaks; tell all 4 enchanters to reroll cleric and cast CH like what do you want from me?

OP said best of the best, 4 enchanters end game pouring their hearts out and you're telling me a mage/cler/sham can replace them in terms of any safety or dps i just dont believe it

[ezigrelnos]

Not to mention there's only so many activities to do in-game, and I scratch my head trying to think of something you could do with four enchanters that you couldn't do equally as or more consistently with three plus someone else who makes pulls safer or recovery easier. Stuff like chardok royals is done with two enchanters or maybe two plus a cleric. Theory means nothing if there's nowhere to actually apply it. Where would you want a 4-enchanter composition for?

op said best of the best what else is more powerful

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To Troxx, here is a simple example to show how easy it is to get higher DPS on lower level mobs, which is why you need to show your parses.

If I Epic DoT 5 mobs, I am doing 80 DPS, just with a free clickie. This doesn't include any other DoTs. I would double my DPS if I single DoTed those mobs to 160 DPS.

[Jibartik]

You know, the problem is with how they mitigated enemy HP and DPS.

Like enemies have too much HP and do too much DPS, while players have too little HP and do too little DPS.

Enemies should have less HP and them and we should do less DPS and then when you charmed things it'd be less OP

Thats what I reckon.

[ezigrelnos]

You know, the problem is with how they mitigated enemy HP and DPS.

Like enemies have too much HP and do too much DPS, while players have too little HP and do too little DPS.

Enemies should have less HP and them and we should do less DPS and then when you charmed things it'd be less OP

Thats what I reckon.

enchanters are OP so just stack 4 enchanter or balance all of EQ, simple

[PlsNoBan]

Enchanter, Enchanter, Enchanter, Cleric.

3 charmed pets, cleric for oh shit. Extra chanters as disposable pullers

This is the only correct answer. All this other shit people are talking about just straight up gets overshadowed by an extra charm pet and additional CC for adds/pet breaks. If the enchanters are competent the cleric won't go oom and you'll kill fast enough that the biggest problem will be not running out of mobs to pull. All these people saying shaman or mage and shit are just biased to the class they like/play.

Charm is and always has been the most OP shit in the game by a large margin. Nothing else comes close.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is the only correct answer. All this other shit people are talking about just straight up gets overshadowed by an extra charm pet and additional CC for adds/pet breaks. If the enchanters are competent the cleric won't go oom and you'll kill fast enough that the biggest problem will be not running out of mobs to pull.

Charm is and always has been the most OP shit in the game

Practical experience is better than theoretical. I don't see 4x Enchanter groups anywhere hehe, or 5x Enchanter groups, or 6x Enchanter groups. You can't even play the game to test it since you are banned:)

[Jibartik]

enchanters are OP so just stack 4 enchanter or balance all of EQ, simple

I was really more speaking about the legacy of the game, not making a custom server.

[PlsNoBan]

Practical experience is better than theoretical. I don't see 4x Enchanter groups anywhere hehe, or 5x Enchanter groups, or 6x Enchanter groups. You can't even play the game to test it since you are banned:)

I have other accounts but that's not really relevant. I mained a fully decked 60 shaman with all the bells and whistles. I know what they're capable of. 3 encs and a cleric will outshine any example of a 4 man group with a shaman in it that you can come up with 10/10 times if the enchanters aren't bad. It's not even a contest my friend. Your bias is showing HEAVILY.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have other accounts but that's not really relevant. I mained a fully decked 60 shaman with all the bells and whistles. I know what they're capable of. 3 encs and a cleric will outshine any example of a 4 man group with a shaman in it that you can come up with 10/10 times if the enchanters aren't bad. It's not even a contest my friend. Your bias is showing HEAVILY.

It's not bias. Me having a 60 Shaman allows me to experience the endgame and report back those results. I know very well what a Shaman is capable of, which is why Fungi King camps don't run 3x Enchanters, for example:) Usually you would run something like Monk/Enchanter/Shaman.

The reality is if you are in a place where you can field 4x Enchanters easily, the content is probably easy anyway.

[ezigrelnos]

Practical experience is better than theoretical. I don't see 4x Enchanter groups anywhere hehe, or 5x Enchanter groups, or 6x Enchanter groups. You can't even play the game to test it since you are banned:)

yikes, my hypothetical scientific simulation based on OP's query isnt 100% probable so i have to dismiss this with my superior intellect...

or...

OP asked what is the best 4 man comp of all time, and you deflect the enchanter OP argument with strawman accusations HEHE :)

(note how i said HEHE :) so its funny for all parties involved)

[ezigrelnos]

You know, the problem is with how they mitigated enemy HP and DPS.

Like enemies have too much HP and do too much DPS, while players have too little HP and do too little DPS.

Enemies should have less HP and them and we should do less DPS and then when you charmed things it'd be less OP

Thats what I reckon.

so you agree 4 enchanter is OP? this is the point i tried to make but im bad with words

[PlsNoBan]

It's not bias. Me having a 60 Shaman allows me to experience the endgame and report back those results. I know very well what a Shaman is capable of, which is why Fungi King camps don't run 3x Enchanters, for example:) Usually you would run something like Monk/Enchanter/Shaman.

The reality is if you are in a place where you can field 4x Enchanters easily, the content is probably easy anyway.

The OP is asking what the best 4 person caster group is. The reason you don't see 3x enc groups at x y or z camp is cause as you said it's not easy to field 3-4 encs for a single group. You're arguing a totally different point. 3 encs and a clr could EASILY do fungi camp and do it better than whatever group your shaman is in. I legit laughed when you tried to say how good your dps was from your epic click rofl. Epic is great for soloing. If the mobs are living long enough for the dps from your long ass cast time epic click is relevant you're already in a group WAY less powerful than one with 3 charm pets.

[ezigrelnos]

imagine saying any class is better than stacking more enchanters

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The OP is asking what the best 4 person caster group is. The reason you don't see 3x enc groups at x y or z camp is cause as you said it's not easy to field 3-4 encs for a single group. You're arguing a totally different point. 3 encs and a clr could EASILY do fungi camp and do it better than whatever group your shaman is in. I legit laughed when you tried to say how good your dps was from your epic click rofl. Epic is great for soloing. If the mobs are living long enough for the dps from your long ass cast time epic click is relevant you're already in a group WAY less powerful than one with 3 charm pets.

Please show evidence for this:) I want to see your 3x Enchanter group doing Fungi King. When I say "easy to field", I mean that the camp you are fighting at would work with 3x Enchanters.

You missed the whole point of my Epic click example. My point is that you can inflate your DPS numbers easily when fighting lower level Mobs. Troxx is obviously parsing easier mobs, he isn't doing raid parsing. So We need the data he is using to see what he is parsing. Otherwise I could easily say "Shamans can do 160 DPS", and I would be factually correct. I could inflate those numbers higher too if I was root rotting more mobs, which I could.

I think you also don't realize that not every zone has good Charmable mobs. A 4x Enchanter group doesn't work where the mobs aren't Charmable, or the only ones available are low level. West Wastes is a good example of this. All of the Charmable mobs are pretty low compared to the stuff you want to kill.

[Jibartik]

we need a p99 olympics

[ezigrelnos]

we need a p99 olympics


people out here arguing specific camps instead of overall average power best of the best

sure, you have some tricks for xyz, but 4 enchanter can handle anything you throw that any other comp can with more ease

[DeathsSilkyMist]

people out here arguing specific camps instead of overall average power best of the best

sure, you have some tricks for xyz, but 4 enchanter can handle anything you throw that any other comp can with more ease

The reality is it matters on the level range and what camps you are doing. OP didn't specify either. 4x Enchanters would be great in Mistmoore, for example. But unless you only play the game to play mid-level dungeons, the "overall average power" needs to take into account higher level camps too.

[Troxx]

To Troxx, here is a simple example to show how easy it is to get higher DPS on lower level mobs, which is why you need to show your parses.

If I Epic DoT 5 mobs, I am doing 80 DPS, just with a free clickie. This doesn't include any other DoTs. I would double my DPS if I single DoTed those mobs to 160 DPS.

You continue to miss the point … which was that parading around a red con ToV raid boss parse where rogues not breaking 100dps has nothing to do with whether a mage can put out much larger numbers on group xp trash content. But please, continue to lecture the community about the performance of classes you haven’t played up to 60.

No need to derail this thread further. In a theoretical “best” setup of 4 casters in xp group content the answer is:

Cleric, ench, ench, __other__

-That other isn’t a 2nd cleric, a druid or a wizard by a long shot.
-Shaman is a better option than the above but redundant dead weight compared to a mage, a necro, or hell even a 3rd enchanter.

If you exclude a 3rd enchanter my vote would be a mage for most mundane content for fastest kill rate. If there are undead to charm or the camp would benefit from FD pulling or the expanded support tool kit of the necromancer … then necro it is.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You continue to miss the point … which was that parading around a red con ToV raid boss parse where rogues not breaking 100dps has nothing to do with whether a mage can put out much larger numbers on group xp trash content. But please, continue to lecture the community about the performance of classes you haven’t played up to 60.

No need to derail this thread further. In a theoretical “best” setup of 4 casters in xp group content the answer is:

Cleric, ench, ench, __other__

-That other isn’t a 2nd cleric, a druid or a wizard by a long shot.
-Shaman is a better option than the above but redundant dead weight compared to a mage, a necro, or hell even a 3rd enchanter.

If you exclude a 3rd enchanter my vote would be a mage for most mundane content for fastest kill rate. If there are undead to charm or the camp would benefit from FD pulling or the expanded support tool kit of the necromancer … then necro it is.

I didn't parade around a ToV boss with my Epic DoT example hehe.

My Shaman can do 170 DPS with Epic DoT and 1 casted DoT each if I am root rotting 5 mobs. This doesn't even include my Pet with Haste. The Math is simple: Epic DoT lasts 90 seconds and does 1425 damage. Bane of Nife lasts 42 seconds and deals 1648 damage. (1648 + 1425) / 90 = ~34 DPS per mob. Multiply that by 5 and you have 170 DPS.

Please show your parsing data to show how you are getting your DPS numbers on Mage. I am not sure why you think you have some obvious data everybody knows about.

There is no evidence so far to show a Mage is significantly better than a Shaman at level 60.

I am asking you for the DPS data because you have a level 60 Mage. Math is math lol, it doesn't need to come from my own character.

[Troxx]

At filling a strictly dps role in a group, mage is absolutely better at dishing out than shaman.

I know.
I have both.
At level 60.
Within full spell books.

Solo? In a small duo/trio with high hp mobs with wicked regen (Kael arena comes to mind). All is these things change the balance given the mechanics of shaman mana self-replenishment and the damage impact potential of more efficient dots if the mobs live long enough.

But again … apples to raw fish comparison. We’re talking a high dps fast paced group where dots won’t have time to do their things.

Mages are a raw dps class. Shamans are not. Shamans are undeniably more effective in most every area of this game but if all you want/need is another person to get things dead faster, the shaman isn’t going to fill that ticket as well as a lot of other classes.

Shamans got some meh nukes, some very powerful dots that won’t have time to reach their potential, and a crappy ass double attacking pet (from a dps perspective … it can tank just fine).

As for parses: I’m at work. Laptop is at home and I haven’t dusted off the mage since Covid hit in early 2020 and since then mage pets got tuned down.

I’ll get you some parses sometime this weekend if I don’t end up sitting lfg for 12 hours.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

At filling a strictly dps role in a group, mage is absolutely better at dishing out than shaman.

I know.
I have both.
At level 60.
Within full spell books.

Solo? In a small duo/trio with high hp mobs with wicked regen (Kael arena comes to mind). All is these things change the balance given the mechanics of shaman mana self-replenishment and the damage impact potential of more efficient dots if the mobs live long enough.

But again … apples to raw fish comparison. We’re talking a high dps fast paced group where dots won’t have time to do their things.

Mages are a raw dps class. Shamans are not. Shamans are undeniably more effective in most every area of this game but if all you want/need is another person to get things dead faster, the shaman isn’t going to fill that ticket as well as a lot of other classes.

Shamans got some meh nukes, some very powerful dots that won’t have time to reach their potential, and a crappy ass double attacking pet (from a dps perspective … it can tank just fine).

As for parses: I’m at work. Laptop is at home and I haven’t dusted off the mage since Covid hit in early 2020 and since then mage pets got tuned down.

I’ll get you some parses sometime this weekend if I don’t end up sitting lfg for 12 hours.

I appreciate it! I would love to see the data, I am intrigued.

[Troxx]

Am honestly excited to show it to you. As I have said in other threads I real-time parse every group I’m in with active heads up display. The only thing I can’t parse are anyones dots (these days including self), DS on other people and other people’s nukes.

I think the biggest thing you’re underestimating is the dps of the pet. It’s basically an extra well geared melee (well geared meaning high end group stuff and epics). Without the pet mages are just like a slightly less powerful wizard with a better DS.

A few well placed nukes is enough to slingshot to the top on your standard xp mobs (not a lot of hp) and unless the group is literally chain pulling all that time between pulls fills your bank with more potential damage to unload on the next.

[sajbert]

It's pretty blatant that popular answer is gonna be clr ench ench X

You could argue for another enchanter

or necro (fd pulls, undead charm pet, fueling cleric with mana)

or mage (utility and burst)

or druid (harmony, ports and regen and beast charm pet)


It's gonna depend on how you define best or where you're hunting. Fastest XP, most difficult encounters, safest or least stressful?

[Arvan]

yall know you can duo fungi king right?

[Troxx]

headed to seb on my 60 mage ailowen if you want to parse dsm ...

[Troxx]

otherwise i'll be sitting lfg for who knows how long

[Troxx]

shoot me a tell!

[Raj]

Why are you using a raid parse when we’re talking group content lol. You’re comparing apples to raw fish. Everyone here knows that high ac raid mobs and giant level gaps have a huge impact on pet dps.

We’re talking groups; not raids.

It’s not rocket surgery DSM …

Lol

[Raj]

thats why 1 enchanter has no pets & pulls; coordinated voice chat with team means every other enchanter can stun for the broken pet and even if you get 3 broken pets at once thats 4 enchanter stunning so i dont see how any type of rngesus aggro would not instantly get squashed with the insane kit that is stacked gaming enchanters

while the cler/sham try to heal the non-existent dmg and the mag is just a lack of charm dps

A good cleric can stun a broken charm pet pretty fast....cleric stuns are very good too. Never discount the cleric stun :cool:

[Troxx]

Ailowen (60 mage) + pet (water) minus DS so far seb crypt

Low: 72dps
High: 175dps

I'll post screenshots later. busy at the moment

New pets are definitely weaker. I'm a sad panda but still averaging 90-110dps overall per xp group fight

[Troxx]

Granted; strong sk tank aggro so i can nuke willy nilly

[Troxx]

yeah DSM you will like these parses; hovering above 100dps most fights with nerfed pets (i have no focus) and my nukes.

[Zuranthium]

Muzzles are irrelevant in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, because Tolapumj's Robe is just so cheap.

Not everyone has the Robe, it can't just be assumed.

The reality is if you are in a place where you can field 4x Enchanters easily, the content is probably easy anyway.

No, 4 Enchanters can definitely handle difficult content. That's 4 people who can AoE stun, mez, root, rune, bedlam. It takes a bit more coordination maybe, but isn't anything that's too hard with voice chat and some actual skill.

I haven’t parsed mage pets since the nerf but in a standard group combining my dps from nukes and pet dps I’d usually put out 100-120 dps sustained (not factoring in dmg shield).

Yep, this sounds right. The pet nerf wasn't that big, just max hit of 8 damage? When including damage shield that number should still hold.

Anyway, this can all be calculated. The mage pet is higher level, higher max damage, duel wield, and backstab compared to the Shaman pet. Just plug in those numbers to see the difference. Safe to say, it's a very big gap.

[Troxx]

Yep, this sounds right. The pet nerf wasn't that big, just max hit of 8 damage? When including damage shield that number should still hold.

Anyway, this can all be calculated. The mage pet is higher level, higher max damage, duel wield, and backstab compared to the Shaman pet. Just plug in those numbers to see the difference. Safe to say, it's a very big gap.

I'll load some parses tomorrow when i have time but i just got off my 60 mage in crypt/emp and average dps per mob bounced from the low end of 75dps to the high end of 157dps. Not all that different than what i told DSm was possible. I'm not sure why this is controversial.

Mages are good at what they do ... getting shit killed and fast.

So much for most underpowered class eh?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll load some parses tomorrow when i have time but i just got off my 60 mage in crypt/emp and average dps per mob bounced from the low end of 75dps to the high end of 157dps. Not all that different than what i told DSm was possible. I'm not sure why this is controversial.

Mages are good at what they do ... getting shit killed and fast.

So much for most underpowered class eh?

Thanks for letting me know the area. The parses will let me know your strategy and how often you can hit the high end before medding. Sadly that isn't great DPS for a level 60 caster in Seb.

In Seb I can root rot 3 mobs solo. I could easily root rot 4 mobs in a group. That means I am doing 136 DPS with DoTs. Looking at my Cliff Golems video my pet is doing about 11 DPS hasted, and JBB clicks would be another 5 DPS. In Seb JBB would get resisted less than Cliff Golems, so that could be higher. In total that means I can do 152 DPS sustained pretty consistently in an easier area like Seb. Shamans aren't even a DPS class.

Remember, I never said underpowered = bad. It just means Mages don't bring a lot to the table (which they sadly don't outside of CoTH). I wouldn't bring a Mage if that's all they can do. Shamans can output your DPS if necessary, have a decently tanky pet with Torpor, and they have a lot more utility to boot. Just bring Tolapumj Robes for Enchanter Pets since they are better than muzzles and you are good to go.

This is talking about level 60 grouping. Before Torpor/Epic Shamans are putting out lower DPS, and Mages are better.


Not everyone has the Robe, it can't just be assumed.

If you are the type of person who thinks adding even 1 DPS is going to make a difference (like yourself), you are going to have a robe. They are dirt cheap and Enchanters can farm plat well. An Enchanter without a robe doesn't care about losing some DPS. Even on Green then are less than 2k.

[Crede]

Thanks for letting me know the area. The parses will let me know your strategy and how often you can hit the high end before medding. Sadly that isn't great DPS for a level 60 caster in Seb.

In Seb I can root rot 3 mobs solo. I could easily root rot 4 mobs in a group. That means I am doing 136 DPS with DoTs. Looking at my Cliff Golems video my pet is doing about 11 DPS hasted, and JBB clicks would be another 5 DPS. In Seb JBB would get resisted less than Cliff Golems, so that could be higher. In total that means I can do 152 DPS sustained pretty consistently in an easier area like Seb. Shamans aren't even a DPS class.

Remember, I never said underpowered = bad. It just means Mages don't bring a lot to the table (which they sadly don't outside of CoTH). I wouldn't bring a Mage if that's all they can do. Shamans can output your DPS if necessary, have a decently tanky pet with Torpor, and they have a lot more utility to boot. Just bring Tolapumj Robes for Enchanter Pets since they are better than muzzles and you are good to go.

This is talking about level 60 grouping. Before Torpor/Epic Shamans are putting out lower DPS, and Mages are better.


If you are the type of person who thinks adding even 1 DPS is going to make a difference (like yourself), you are going to have a robe. They are dirt cheap and Enchanters can farm plat well. An Enchanter without a robe doesn't care about losing some DPS. Even on Green then are less than 2k.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Nobody is rotting 4 mobs at a time with an enchanter group. Therefore mage single mob dps is superior. You’ll never have 4 mobs rotted long enough for shaman dps to matter in a group where you’re plowing through mobs. This is a silly statement to make in this context. You’re just highlighting what shamans can do solo with enough mobs rooted which is cool, but totally pointless in this setting and you’ll be stuck doing shit dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Nobody is rotting 4 mobs at a time with an enchanter group. Therefore mage single mob dps is superior. You’ll never have 4 mobs rotted long enough for shaman dps to matter in a group where you’re plowing through mobs. This is a silly statement to make in this context. You’re just highlighting what shamans can do solo with enough mobs rooted which is cool, but totally pointless in this setting and you’ll be stuck doing shit dps.

You easily can. Have a few mobs in camp being DoTed, have Ench pets killing others. You just aren't very imaginative hehe. If DPS is your only concern, you can easily have 4 rooted in camp while Ench pets are hitting x amount of other mobs. If you are pulling that much it's easy to have all those mobs.

[Danth]

Multi-target damage is a different beast than single-target damage and peak damage is likewise distinct from average damage dealt. Shamans can achieve pretty good peak damage values, both multi- or single-target, but it takes them a long time to ramp it up and during that ramp-up period they're doing less so it pulls down the average. If stuff is dying relatively fast, as it will in a multi-charm group, many targets will already have a large portion of their health gone by the time the shaman can get going. Such conditions play to the strength of characters who have minimal ramp-up times.

I think we should largely ignore area-based damage in a multi-enchanter group. Such a hypothetical group is virtually always going to favor heavy usage of either lull splitting or mesmerize and will attack targets one-by-one for the most part. Sure they *could* fight multiples at a time...but in practice they're not going to. On the other hand....maybe we should dive into the theory-craft after all. Why not? We're already discussing this potential 3- or 4-enchanter group that effectively doesn't exist in practice as it is. If we're talking fairy-tales anyway I suppose we can go full on if we want to.

I still say this group adding a 4th, if they aren't adding another enchanter, would look between magician and shaman and pick a necromancer instead.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm just showing the facts of the math. Even with 2 mobs root rotted while the Enchanters are killing with Charm pets a Shaman will hit the Mage's minimum DPS. The reality is you just like the feel of the faster single target DPS of a Mage. That doesn't make it objectively better, which is what we are discussing.

You don't need to lull split in Seb generally if your group has good resists. Just bring them in and Root/Slow. At 200 MR/FR/CR spells never land on me in Seb. DoT the extras while waiting for the Charmed pets to chew down another mob. It's easy in Seb if you are clearing most areas including Crypt/Emp.

[Danth]

Well, you're not arguing math with me exactly because you're not showing me anything I don't already know. Rather I'm arguing would vs. could. I don't know any three-enchanter groups but the two-enchanter groups I know don't operate that way, not even when they add a DOT-based character. They could, but they don't. Since this entire discussion amounts to theory-craft it's probably the wrong tack to try to limit myself to real-game situations. Really I ought to stand aside and let the dreamers dream.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, you're not arguing math with me exactly because you're not showing me anything I don't already know. Rather I'm arguing would vs. could. I don't know any three-enchanter groups but the two-enchanter groups I know don't operate that way, not even when they add a DOT-based character. They could, but they don't. Since this entire discussion amounts to theory-craft it's probably the wrong tack to try to limit myself to real-game situations. Really I ought to stand aside and let the dreamers dream.

Danth

Just because you prefer to play one way, doesn't mean that is the best way:) And for people who are clamoring that "DPS is better than everything", I am showing them that they can get the same DPS just fine. Don't blame me for simply looking at the facts lol. I know how Seb mobs work, you could do what I suggested just fine and get the Same DPS. It's really not theory craft. Preference is irrelevant. Remember that 2 Charmed pets can only attack up to 2 mobs at a time. So you can have 4-6 mobs in camp and DoT up the mobs that aren't being killed.

DPS is the key argument for bringing a Mage, and they can't even hit higher numbers than a Shaman. Their lack of utility means they are just sub-par compared to a Shaman in Seb. That isn't to say you can't play with a Mage. If you want to that's great! Most people aren't Min/Maxing their groups to begin with, regardless of what other people try to claim hehe. Remember this is level 60 we are talking about.

[Danth]

It's really not theory craft..

Something remains theory right up until people actually start doing it on a regular basis.
Today, they don't. Sometimes good ideas and new strategies originate from such theorizing. Gameplay and popular tactics do change over time.

I'm with you on the damage isn't everything argument which is why at the very least I'd rather have three enchanters and a cleric (or necro, someone with a rez) over four enchanters. The damage > all crowd tend to ignore deaths and other setbacks as "doesn't count" and write it off. I do not think all that highly of magicians, but they will do higher average damage than a shaman in this type of group the way such groups actually operate, today. I don't think the extra damage amounts to a hill of beans though, not when multiple charm pets are already ripping through everything, but me caring about what matters seems to be the outlier in this rather fanciful discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Something remains theory right up until people actually start doing it on a regular basis.
Today, they don't. Sometimes good ideas and new strategies originate from such theorizing. Gameplay and popular tactics do change over time.

I'm with you on the damage isn't everything argument which is why at the very least I'd rather have three enchanters and a cleric (or necro, someone with a rez) over four enchanters. The damage > all crowd tend to ignore deaths and other setbacks as "doesn't count" and write it off. I do not think all that highly of magicians, but they will do higher average damage than a shaman in this type of group the way such groups actually operate, today. I don't think the extra damage amounts to a hill of beans though, not when multiple charm pets are already ripping through everything, but me caring about what matters seems to be the outlier in this rather fanciful discussion.

I agree with most of this. I am simply saying just because "groups operate in x manner" doesn't mean it is the only optimal way to play. The argument isn't "Mage is better because of preference", people are arguing "Mages objectively do a ton of damage, therefore bring them instead of another class."

But at least for the Seb example, the numbers aren't adding up to make Mages special at all. At best they can DPS at the same level as a Shaman, but I am willing to bet the 157 DPS Troxx was talking about involved nuking, which isn't sustainable. The med times are going to hurt your overall DPS/kills per hour. But we will need to see the actual logs to confirm this. Having Torpor/Epic means a Shaman can sustain the DPS longer, without needing a break.

[PatChapp]

If your in a group with multiple charm pets, dps is not an issue. Enc/enc/cler/cler please. Less dying for everyone involved.

[Crede]

You easily can. Have a few mobs in camp being DoTed, have Ench pets killing others. You just aren't very imaginative hehe. If DPS is your only concern, you can easily have 4 rooted in camp while Ench pets are hitting x amount of other mobs. If you are pulling that much it's easy to have all those mobs.

You’re delusional, this won’t happen 99% of the time. You’re just showing your shaman bias hehe. You focus down one mob in < 1 min, and move onto the next.

Nobody but you will ever think shamans are better dps in a group setting than a mage, nor does anyone want to constantly deal with having 5-7 mobs and risk a wipe, and once a camp is split you won’t have that many anyway. Sorry, shamans just aren’t dps and their utility really adds nothing to a enchanter/cleric/mage composition. The shaman will likely just be sitting there clicking their jbb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You’re delusional, this won’t happen 99% of the time. You’re just showing your shaman bias hehe. You focus down one mob in < 1 min, and move onto the next.

Nobody but you will ever think shamans are better dps in a group setting than a mage, nor does anyone want to constantly deal with having 5-7 mobs and risk a wipe, and once a camp is split you won’t have that many anyway. Sorry, shamans just aren’t dps and their utility really adds nothing to a enchanter/cleric/mage composition. The shaman will likely just be sitting there clicking their jbb.

I am not delusional at all. Math wise it works out fine. If it takes 45 seconds to kill a mob, I can Epic Click and DoT at least two mobs in that time before they even start fighting them lol.

The only delusion here is your assumption the game can only be played in a manner that makes Mages look good.

I am sorry, Mages really just aren't that good. My Shaman can match their DPS, and he isn't a DPS class.

[Crede]

I am not delusional at all. Math wise it works out fine. If it takes 45 seconds to kill a mob, I can Epic Click and DoT at least two mobs in that time before they even start fighting them lol.

The only delusion here is your assumption the game can only be played in a manner that makes Mages look good.

I am sorry, Mages really just aren't that good. My Shaman can match their DPS, and he isn't a DPS class.

Mathwise you need to be having 4-6 mobs in the camp at all times with your epic dots getting to run their full duration to matter. This isn’t reality. And a mage will also help focus down single big targets better as well.

Sorry, shamans are good soloers, but you’re way too bias of them in all group compositions. Mages are simply better here.

[Danth]

If our hypothetical group starts from ench/ench usually it wants a cleric because Aegolism plus another wave of stuns (Stun Command is pretty nice) goes a long way to surviving charm breaks, plus rez for when someone drops. For a fourth I don't see why they wouldn't want a third enchanter or a necromancer before a shaman or magician. Malo is nice but not THAT nice. I think shaman vs magician is kind of a fight between the runners-up in this situation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mathwise you need to be having 4-6 mobs in the camp at all times with your epic dots getting to run their full duration to matter. This isn’t reality. And a mage will also help focus down single big targets better as well.

Sorry, shamans are good soloers, but you’re way too bias of them in all group compositions. Mages are simply better here.

You do realize I can solo 3 Seb mobs at a time right? Not sure why you think thay changes when we are in a group lol. You get more DPS and kills per hour than a Mage without an increased risk.

Your preference on how to play doesn't change mathematical fact.

[Keebz]

Idk, it sounds right. I think 4 shaman is clearly the best. DSM has me convinced. Why kill 1 mob at a time with superior DPS when you can root rot 16-20 simultaneously? Not to mention the 4 wolf pets putting out 44 dps and the 4 JBBs hit nearly 20dps. Seriously why play any other class? Can a mage Torpor a wolf pet? I don't think so.

[Crede]

You do realize I can solo 3 Seb mobs at a time right? Not sure why you think thay changes when we are in a group lol. You get more DPS and kills per hour than a Mage without an increased risk.

Your preference on how to play doesn't change mathematical fact.

Because nobody cares what you do solo hehe. Groups will just slaughter one mob at a time. You will run out of mass groups to kill very quickly so then the shaman will be stuck focusing down one with them. You think solo play = group play. Sorry, just not how things work. Shaman end up just casting jbb and bane here and there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Because nobody cares what you do solo hehe. Groups will just slaughter one mob at a time. You will run out of mass groups to kill very quickly so then the shaman will be stuck focusing down one with them. You think solo play = group play. Sorry, just not how things work. Shaman end up just casting jbb and bane here and there.

Sorry you can't math or think about other ways to play. I know how groups work. You don't. If you knew how groups worked you could do different tactics if you wanted.

There is no reason why you can't do my suggestion in Seb, other than your personal preference.

[Zuranthium]

Nobody is rotting 4 mobs at a time with an enchanter group. Therefore mage single mob dps is superior. You’ll never have 4 mobs rotted long enough for shaman dps to matter in a group where you’re plowing through mobs. This is a silly statement to make in this context.

If only it were just a "silly statement". DSM is always saying fallacies like this.

A Shaman especially isn't going to be root rotting like that vs summoning MOBs. It's such a dumb thing to say.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If only it were just a "silly statement". DSM is always saying fallacies like this.

A Shaman especially isn't going to be root rotting like that vs summoning MOBs. It's such a dumb thing to say.

Its not a fallacy lol. Its factual math. Again, this strategy would work perfectly fine and have the same DPS as a Mage. Sorry Mage DPS isn't that good.

We were talking about Sebilis silly, where most mobs dont summon. Either you didn't read or you are pivoting to avoid the point.

[PlsNoBan]

This dudes boner for the shaman class has completely drained his brain of blood and is no longer capable of rational thought

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This dudes boner for the shaman class has completely drained his brain of blood and is no longer capable of rational thought


Yup, all of these level 60 mages have NO bias whatsoever:rolleyes:. Math isn't biased:)

Yet again you can't counter my points with logic and evidence, so name calling is all you have. Its sad.

[Danth]

We were talking about Sebilis silly, where most mobs dont summon.

Keeping to Sebilis: Most don't summon but that's kind of moot because this group of 60's isn't hanging out at disco or chef unless they're goofing off anyway. I've never seen anyone try to play that way at myconids or juggernauts, resist rates are a hassle, lot of it summons, and the mushroom men have too many healers and gaters. In crypt if you're taking some of the non-valuable crap out of the picture because those are your charm pets you're still going to be left with mainly singles, especially after the initial break. You could turn emperor's room into a battle royale but that's make-work for the shaman because usually they're going to lull it out solo. Really in crypt, odds are the 4th player's logging on a rogue alt to make the doors less of a hassle. So you're left with goofing off at disco or NG on easy nights when folks don't feel like using their brains...valid enough but probably outside the main scope here.

Maybe someplace like Charasis would've been a better location for that sort of thing?

Danth

[PlsNoBan]

Raise your hand if you want to be in a group with some idiot shaman root rotting 4 mobs at a time to make his epic click do respectable damage?

Or you could just group with a mage that does as much/more without all the bullshit. Or better yet just get another enchanter that does like 3x as much dmg with another charm pet. It's fucking insane how far you're reaching to try to shoehorn your dumb class into this hypothetical "whos the best 4 caster group" question. Literally everyone knows you're wrong and you've made like 150 posts saying pure nonsense trying to argue otherwise.

[Crede]

Yup, all of these level 60 mages have NO bias whatsoever:rolleyes:. Math isn't biased:)

Yet again you can't counter my points with logic and evidence, so name calling is all you have. Its sad.

I don't have bias. I have every class, and I can guarantee I've done more builds than you. I've learned to appreciate them all in their own way. I know reality whereas you seem to have a distorted view of it to support your favorite class claims.

You've shown how much dps a shaman can do when there are 4-5 mobs in camp and they are allowed to just sit there and hit full epic duration time after time. This is an effective way for a shaman to solo, but you don't even see this happening when shaman's duo. You're usually just focusing down 1 mob at a time and being careful more times than not at what you bring in, especially with super high level content. The hole for instance could easily be a wipe if you get 2-3 nasty golems.

The same goes for this group of 4 situation. There's no point to attempt to bring that many mobs in at once, and let them sit there over and over again so the shaman can do more dps, hehe. It's an unnecessary risk especially when fighting mobs that lvl 60s actually care about, lol. Even seb mobs can get nasty once you get past 3 of them. As myself & Danth already pointed out, most situations you will just eventually run out of mobs too.

Shaman's are a more superior overall class than a mage, but what mages do well, they do really well. This particular scenario is one that they are built for when you have an enchanter/cleric that can cover what a shaman brings to the table.

So sorry, everyone will be enjoying the superior mage dps while your shaman will be sitting there on the baseball field not getting picked for either team of pure casters.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't have bias. I have every class, and I can guarantee I've done more builds than you. I've learned to appreciate them all in their own way. I know reality whereas you seem to have a distorted view of it to support your favorite class claims.

You've shown how much dps a shaman can do when there are 4-5 mobs in camp and they are allowed to just sit there and hit full epic duration time after time. This is an effective way for a shaman to solo, but you don't even see this happening when shaman's duo. You're usually just focusing down 1 mob at a time and being careful more times than not at what you bring in, especially with super high level content. The hole for instance could easily be a wipe if you get 2-3 nasty golems.

The same goes for this group of 4 situation. There's no point to attempt to bring that many mobs in at once, and let them sit there over and over again so the shaman can do more dps, hehe. It's an unnecessary risk especially when fighting mobs that lvl 60s actually care about, lol. Even seb mobs can get nasty once you get past 3 of them. As myself & Danth already pointed out, most situations you will just eventually run out of mobs too.

Shaman's are a more superior overall class than a mage, but what mages do well, they do really well. This particular scenario is one that they are built for when you have an enchanter/cleric that can cover what a shaman brings to the table.

So sorry, everyone will be enjoying the superior mage dps while your shaman will be sitting there on the baseball field not getting picked for either team of pure casters.

You claim you don't have a bias. I claim I don't have a bias. No way to prove it either way, so we are at an impasse:) You have no monopoly on anti-bias, or proof you have less bias than I do.

You don't need to have every class to know how the math of the game works, or how classes interact in groups.

We were talking about Sebilis, because that is where Troxx got his DPS logs from. As a Shaman I am often times fighting 3-4 mobs down there at a time, because that's how the agro works. I can do this consistently, which means you can do it in a group too. I am sorry that people don't want to play this way, but that doesn't mean you would exclude a Shaman due to lack of DPS in Sebilis. They could match a Mage's DPS if the group wanted it, plus all the additional utility that they have and a Mage does not.

You need to show situations where a Mage is superior over a Shaman. So far the Sebilis example doesn't work, as my Shaman could match the high end DPS of a Mage down there. The math will remain the same, regardless of how you feel.

Also, it is silly to say "you could run out of mobs". That would also be the case if you DPS too fast with the Enchanter/Mage Pets lol. The killspeed is the same if I am matching DPS. This should be a no brainer.

Raise your hand if you want to be in a group with some idiot shaman root rotting 4 mobs at a time to make his epic click do respectable damage?

Or you could just group with a mage that does as much/more without all the bullshit. Or better yet just get another enchanter that does like 3x as much dmg with another charm pet. It's fucking insane how far you're reaching to try to shoehorn your dumb class into this hypothetical "whos the best 4 caster group" question. Literally everyone knows you're wrong and you've made like 150 posts saying pure nonsense trying to argue otherwise.

Preference is irrelevant to math. You cannot say the Mage is objectively better here. The math disproves the claim. You just prefer it for your play style. That is fine, but it is not an objective fact. You call a Shaman "dumb", but you have no bias. Got it:)

[PlsNoBan]

Preference is irrelevant to math. You cannot say the Mage is objectively better here. The math disproves the claim. You just prefer it for your play style. That is fine, but it is not an objective fact. You call a Shaman "dumb", but you have no bias. Got it:)

The math says an additional enchanter does MUCH more sustained damage regardless of number of targets than you could ever hope to. The math also says mages will do much more than you consistently on a single target which is the vast majority of the time in most situations. I've played this game since beta from live to early p99 through like 6+ TLP servers and back to P99 multiple times in between. Not once have I ever been in a group where anyone said "Hey I got a good idea lets root 4 mobs off to the side so a shaman can epic click them and do almost as much damage as a mage"

I honestly can't believe you're actually trying to make this dipshit argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The math says an additional enchanter does MUCH more sustained damage regardless of number of targets than you could ever hope to. The math also says mages will do much more than you consistently on a single target which is the vast majority of the time in most situations. I've played this game since beta from live to early p99 through like 6+ TLP servers and back to P99 multiple times in between. Not once have I ever been in a group where anyone said "Hey I got a good idea lets root 4 mobs off to the side so a shaman can epic click them and do almost as much damage as a mage"

I honestly can't believe you're actually trying to make this dipshit argument.

We aren't talking about Enchanters. We already agree we are bringing at least 2 lol.

The math doesn't say this, you need to show logs where a Mage could out DPS a Shaman. So far the Sebilis example doesn't work.

Your play experience is irrelevant if you are wrong. Just because people prefer to play one way, doesn't mean other ways aren't as efficient lol. Math-wise the efficiency is the same. You are also assuming Troxx was doing 157 DPS most of the time. He said before his high-end is with nuking, which isn't sustainable. We still need the logs to know what his real average is. My guess is it's decently lower.

[PlsNoBan]

Can we get an epic mage with pet focus to post some parses and shut this moron up please?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can we get an epic mage with pet focus to post some parses and shut this moron up please?

Epic Pet is so rare on this server it's not really relevant. Unless you know an Epic Mage you aren't going to be grouping with them often. There are more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages hehe. People don't screen for gear on P99 for the most part either, so they won't know whether or not the Mage they are getting has their Epic if it is a pickup group. The assumption would be they wouldn't have it.

[Danth]

Big difference between disco and myconids. Are your fungus king groups regularly trying to root/rot all those priests and reavers? Mine sure didn't and with the resist rates being what they were I don't see why they would have wanted to. Definitely have done plenty of the multi-target-dotting in weaker areas especially when someone wanted experience but we were talking all 60's here.

At any rate we seem to be on the same page more or less in that neither shaman nor magician is quite in the top tier for rounding out this particular group. That's good enough for me. My vote's for third enchanter or necromancer.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Big difference between disco and myconids. Are your fungus king groups regularly trying to root/rot all those priests and reavers? Mine sure didn't and with the resist rates being what they were I don't see why they would have wanted to. Definitely have done plenty of the multi-target-dotting in weaker areas especially when someone wanted experience but we were talking all 60's here.

At any rate we seem to be on the same page more or less in that neither shaman nor magician is quite in the top tier for rounding out this particular group. That's good enough for me. My vote's for third enchanter or necromancer.

Danth

In a Fungi King group you don't pick a Mage. The normal setup would be Monk or SK/Enchanter/Shaman and a Cleric (player or alt camped for reses). People try not to run a 6 man group so everybody has a better shot at a tunic.

Fungi King is a perfect example of a camp where you aren't trying to maximize DPS. You want safety so you can keep the camp. Nothing is worse than a wipe and another group moves in. That is why a Shaman's utility is so important for Fungi King camp. You don't need to root/rot mobs because the puller isn't trying to bring in a bunch of mobs. You just kill the PH.

[PlsNoBan]

Epic Pet is so rare on this server it's not really relevant. Unless you know an Epic Mage you aren't going to be grouping with them often. There are more Torpor Shamans than Epic Mages hehe. People don't screen for gear on P99 for the most part either, so they won't know whether or not the Mage they are getting has their Epic if it is a pickup group. The assumption would be they wouldn't have it.

Ahhh so the shaman can have epic but the mage can't. Got it :rolleyes:

[Jibartik]

I wish loramins strategy guide spoiled all the neckbeard high end camps instead of the lowbie fun classic magical camps :(

Loramin make it focus on all these neckbeard camps so they get all overcrowded and their sploits get nerfed!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ahhh so the shaman can have epic but the mage can't. Got it :rolleyes:

Lol yes. Shaman Epic is EXTREMELY common. Child's Tear is basically given away for free in high end guilds, the DKP value is just so cheap.

Good luck seeing even 1 Earth Staff in months of raiding, and another player will probably out-bid you.

Also remember that for a good portion of a server's life Child's Tears are even easier to get (before Fear revamp). This means even more Shamans can get their Epics for cheaper during this time.

[Danth]

Fungi King is a perfect example of a camp where you aren't trying to maximize DPS. You want safety so you can keep the camp. Nothing is worse than a wipe and another group moves in.

Yup. That's one factor which makes the necromancer nice--feign/rez is really good for maintaining presence in contested areas.

Per the rest of your post, normally I agree but we're already in oddball land because of the arbitrary "only casters as primary characters" rule the thread started with. Valid enough to say that someone out of this group is likely switching to a monk alt if they go down to fungus king because realistically someone probably would.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yup. That's one factor which makes the necromancer nice--feign/rez is really good for maintaining presence in contested areas.

Per the rest of your post, normally I agree but we're already in oddball land because of the arbitrary "only casters as primary characters" rule the thread started with. Valid enough to say that someone out of this group is likely switching to a monk alt if they go down to fungus king because realistically someone probably would.

Danth

Lol agreed, I haven't seen too many Necromancer pullers at Fungi King. Not to say they couldn't do it, but Monk/SK is generally preferred.

[PlsNoBan]

Okay guys I figured it out. I solved the riddle! The best 4 man caster group is: Enc, Enc, Shm, Clr. The shaman has epic and torpor and 100% fully BiS gear with every clicky. The group has 4 rooted mobs to dot in camp at all times and they all live for exactly 1.5 minutes for the best shaman epic click dps efficiency. The cleric logs out between CH's on the charm pets to log in his necro to twitch the shaman so they have more mana to cast bane/pox. Your only other option if you choose not to bring shaman is a naked mage with a cracked staff or an enchanter that never bought charm. Shaman is obviously superior you idiots!

Phew... Thank god solved that mystery!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Okay guys I figured it out. I solved the riddle! The best 4 man caster group is: Enc, Enc, Shm, Clr. The shaman has epic and torpor and 100% fully BiS gear with every clicky. The group has 4 rooted mobs to dot in camp at all times and they all live for exactly 1.5 minutes for the best shaman epic click dps efficiency. The cleric logs out between CH's on the charm pets to log in his necro to twitch the shaman so they have more mana to cast bane/pox. Your only other option if you choose not to bring shaman is a naked mage with a cracked staff or an enchanter that never bought charm. Shaman is obviously superior you idiots!

Phew... Thank god solved that mystery!

When you can't win with logic and facts, you go with the sarcasm. Come back when you have evidence of a Mage's superiority please. I will gladly take a look.

Remember when I said I was talking about level 60 groups, and that Mage is better than a Shaman in lower levels groups? No, because you don't really read:)

[PlsNoBan]

I forgot to mention the mage's keyboard is broken and he's playing with a guitar hero controller on a 56k dial up internet connection and his mom keeps picking up the phone and disconnecting him

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I forgot to mention the mage's keyboard is broken and he's playing with a guitar hero controller on a 56k dial up internet connection and his mom keeps picking up the phone and disconnecting him

You mad, bro?

[Danth]

Funny part is a magician probably could play somewhat effectively given similarly awful conditions, minus the disconnects. One of the big strengths of that class is that it's a simple character to operate competently. You could put a 6 year old child on a magician and within a week he'd play it at least at an average level.

Notably I see Shamwowi conspicuously NOT arguing with my own comments that I like #3 enchanter or necromancer better for that particular 4-man group....only that he likes shaman better than magician for it. I hope it stays that way because I don't want to be on my PC 'till 2 AM :)

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Funny part is a magician probably could play somewhat effectively given similarly awful conditions, minus the disconnects. One of the big strengths of that class is that it's a simple character to operate competently. You could put a 6 year old child on a magician and within a week he'd play it at least at an average level.

Notably I see Shamwowi conspicuously NOT arguing with my own comments that I like #3 enchanter or necromancer better for that particular 4-man group....only that he likes shaman better than magician for it. I hope it stays that way because I don't want to be on my PC 'till 2 AM :)

Danth

Lol from a raw DPS perspective obviously 3x Enchanters and a Cleric would be superior. However, I have never really seen this group setup, so my fear is it would start to get really risky with multiple Charm breaks. I think I discussed it earlier in the thread. I would love to see a long, multiple hour stream of this setup in a hard area, to see how often problems occur and how well the group can recover.

If it's too risky, I would prefer Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric still. Consistency is often times better than high risk, since the average is what you care about if you are going to be farming or leveling for a decent period of time.

[Zuranthium]

Lots of mobs in Sebilis summon, you have no clue what you're talking about. It's not viable to keep 4 things full-duration disease/epic DoTed anyway in most groups, you will be moving together through different areas or pulling groups of things that die too quickly for the DoT's to have that impact. You can fully DoT up the last MOB in a pull before the group gets to it, but probably not more than that.

I know how groups work. You don't. If you knew how groups worked you could do different tactics if you wanted.

You're a clown. There is absolutely nothing you understand about the game better, and by your own admission you play the game less efficiently and productively. You would lose every time if we actually had a contest among the people you try to talk at on the forum, about who could get to 60 fastest in an equal amount of playtime.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lots of mobs in Sebilis summon, you have no clue what you're talking about. It's not viable to keep 4 things full-duration disease/epic DoTed anyway in most groups, you will be moving together through different areas or pulling groups of things that die too quickly for the DoT's to have that impact. You can fully DoT up the last MOB in a pull before the group gets to it, but probably not more than that.



You're a clown. There is absolutely nothing you understand about the game better, and by your own admission you play the game less efficiently and productively. You would lose every time if we actually had a contest among the people you try to talk at on the forum, about who could get to 60 fastest in an equal amount of playtime.

I didn't say mobs don't summon in Sebilis lol. You don't read. I said a lot of mobs don't summon, which is true. Do you know what you are talking about?

You just post to try and be counter to what I say, regardless of how wrong you actually are:)

You still have yet to provide even one shred of evidence for any of your claims. But it's easy to just bullshit when you don't think evidence matters.

I love how you think everybody on P99 is trying to level to 60 in the fastest amount of time. It really shows how biased you are towards your specific view of how you think the game is played (or should be played).

[Zuranthium]

You said "most mobs don't summon" (incorrect), in an attempt to make it sound like it's super viable to root rot throughout Sebilis (incorrect), to support your very dumb and desperate attempt to continually make it seem like a Shaman is inherently always better than a Mage.

I wouldn't try to counter what you say for no reason, that's just another dumb straw man line from you. You're simply incorrect about so many things, which everyone needs to constantly try to educate you on, but you continue to refuse.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said "most mobs don't summon" (incorrect), in an attempt to make it sound like it's super viable to root rot throughout Sebilis (incorrect), to support your very dumb and desperate attempt to continually make it seem like a Shaman is inherently always better than a Mage.

I wouldn't try to counter what you say for no reason, that's just another dumb straw man line from you. You're simply incorrect about so many things, which everyone needs to constantly try to educate you on, but you continue to refuse.

None of that is incorrect, you simply haven't played in Sebilis it seems hehe. Most mobs don't summon in Sebilis. You are going to basically use Fungi King camp as an example, even though Mage's never get used there anyway.

You are just countering what I am saying. That or you really just don't know much. You keep getting stuff wrong but insisting you are right.

[Danth]

Lol from a raw DPS perspective obviously 3x Enchanters and a Cleric would be superior. However, I have never really seen this group setup, so my fear is it would start to get really risky with multiple Charm breaks. I think I discussed it earlier in the thread. I would love to see a long, multiple hour stream of this setup in a hard area, to see how often problems occur and how well the group can recover.

If it's too risky, I would prefer Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric still. Consistency is often times better than high risk, since the average is what you care about if you are going to be farming or leveling for a decent period of time.

I'm leery of triple-charm as well, hence adding in necromancer. Gives you a very nice spectre pet, feign-rez, access to feign/harmshield-pulling if needed, a decent heal output, a good snare, and still has undead charm in many areas if desired. Magician in particular falls flat on its face against that option, Malo is nice but not THAT nice just on its own. Shaman holds up better but most of its best utility is slightly redundant. It's alright but in this specific case I think the more unique abilities are preferred.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm leery of triple-charm as well, hence adding in necromancer. Gives you a very nice spectre pet, feign-rez, access to feign/harmshield-pulling if needed, a decent heal output, a good snare, and still has undead charm in many areas if desired. Magician in particular falls flat on its face against that option, Malo is nice but not THAT nice just on its own. Shaman holds up better but most of its best utility is slightly redundant. It's alright but in this specific case I think the more unique abilities are preferred.

Oh yeah Necros are great too. I would typically take one over a Mage.

[Vexenu]

I'll throw in another vote for Enc/Enc/Clr/Nec. The utility you gain from the Necro will likely outweigh the additional DPS from the Mage over the long term. And when you really want to go ham you have the option for the third charm pet in many zones. Under no circumstances would you ever want a Shaman. DSM seriously making the argument that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage because he root rots four mobs at a time is one of the most breathtaking displays of autism ever seen on these boards. He keeps falling back on the math. Well, that's kind of like saying that because you can shotgun a single beer in five seconds, you're capable of drinking 720 beers per hour. The math checks out, but in practice this is not how real life works. Shamans are not a group DPS class because no group wastes time root rotting four mobs at a time. If you're killing that slowly why even have a group in the first place?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll throw in another vote for Enc/Enc/Clr/Nec. The utility you gain from the Necro will likely outweigh the additional DPS from the Mage over the long term. And when you really want to go ham you have the option for the third charm pet in many zones. Under no circumstances would you ever want a Shaman. DSM seriously making the argument that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage because he root rots four mobs at a time is one of the most breathtaking displays of autism ever seen on these boards. He keeps falling back on the math. Well, that's kind of like saying that because you can shotgun a single beer in five seconds, you're capable of drinking 720 beers per hour. The math checks out, but in practice this is not how real life works. Shamans are not a group DPS class because no group wastes time root rotting four mobs at a time. If you're killing that slowly why even have a group in the first place?

It would work in practice just fine. Again, your preference does not mean Mage is superior. You just prefer having a Mage. That's fine, but that doesn't make them better.

People really don't seem to have the capacity to think about how to kill mobs it seems, or how DPS works. You can have 5 mobs in camp, 3 being DoTed, 2 being handled by the Enchanters and their pets. Then the pets can attack the DoTed mobs to finish them off.

Remember how Troxx's DPS range was 75-157? You don't need max DoT ticking every time to get the majority of the DPS out of the DoTs lol. You can use Bane if you want too, that only lasts 7 ticks.

At the end of the day both methods would achieve the same DPS. But in reality most people don't actually care about DPS, which is why the whole entire premise of the argument is silly. You won't gear check players, and you are fine with muzzle instead of Tolapumj's Robe, but then you will say Mage is superior because it supposedly can DPS better. Ironic, considering you lose DPS by using muzzle and not gear checking players hehe.

[Vexenu]

Ironically, the only time a Shaman could even sniff a spot in a theoretical best four-man caster group would be alongside a Mage, and that's only if Enchanters were disallowed for some reason.

Three Mages + Shaman is pretty fantastic. Drop a slow and the pets just start chainsawing away at the mob. Barely even need to heal them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ironically, the only time a Shaman could even sniff a spot in a theoretical best four-man caster group would be alongside a Mage, and that's only if Enchanters were disallowed for some reason.

Three Mages + Shaman is pretty fantastic. Drop a slow and the pets just start chainsawing away at the mob. Barely even need to heal them.

Enchanter Enchanter Enchanter Shaman would be better. No need for the theoretical nonsense.

[PatChapp]

I don't understand why anyone is arguing about DPS. A group with multiple charm pets is not lacking DPS. Mages are useful at fungi king to coth players as you swap out. That's about it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't understand why anyone is arguing about DPS. A group with multiple charm pets is not lacking DPS. Mages are useful at fungi king to coth players as you swap out. That's about it

Exactly.

[PlsNoBan]

DSM seriously making the argument that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage because he root rots four mobs at a time is one of the most breathtaking displays of autism ever seen on these boards.

[Keebz]

I don't understand why anyone is arguing about DPS. A group with multiple charm pets is not lacking DPS.

They are arguing about DPS, because DSM made some inflammatory claims about mage vs shaman dps, and people engaged with him seriously, which as we've seen over the past few weeks is futile.

The mage is there to malo and provide a beefy pet to tank when charm breaks, which with 2 enchanters is doubly valuable. The utility is also non-trivial while overall DPS is not significantly lower than 3x chanter.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They are arguing about DPS, because DSM made some inflammatory claims about mage vs shaman dps, and people engaged with him seriously, which as we've seen over the past few weeks is futile.

The mage is there to malo and provide a beefy pet to tank when charm breaks, which with 2 enchanters is doubly valuable. The utility is also non-trivial while overall DPS is not significantly lower than 3x chanter.

Lol you think factual math is inflammatory. Sorry reality isn't good enough for you. Mages just aren't that special, I am sorry.

[PatChapp]

Mage offers much less than a shaman here. But shaman offers much less than a cleric or necro. Stuns/screaming terror more utility than Malo.
Multiple charm breaks will happen simultaneously, more assistance is better than a bit of dps

[Ripqozko]

DSM is basically UCF

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is basically UCF

Ripqozko is basically UCF. Isn't that hilarious? It continues to be true that nobody cares about your bad Warder loot that can all be replaced with better ToV items.

[Ripqozko]

Ripqozko is basically UCF. Isn't that hilarious? It continues to be true that nobody cares about your bad Warder loot that can all be replaced with better ToV items.

imagine if you competed and got some, sorry you never did.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

imagine if you competed and got some, sorry you never did.

Ah now the terrible joke drops. Looks like I hit a nerve. Sorry nobody cares about low tier Warder loot. Get real Warder loot next time so people care.

[PlsNoBan]

DSM seriously making the argument that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage because he root rots four mobs at a time is one of the most breathtaking displays of autism ever seen on these boards.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again, when you can't win with logic and facts, you resort to name calling. I am sorry a Mages DPS numbers are not great, and a Shaman can match their high end in an XP group. As mentioned before though, 2x Enchanters are DPS enough. Mages just aren't really needed outside of CoTHing most of the time.

[plzrelax]

Can you post a video of you root rotting 4 mobs while in a group with three other people?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can you post a video of you root rotting 4 mobs while in a group with three other people?

Honestly I am the only one posting videos, and people still don't believe them because they don't want to.

Please post a video of an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, and then add a Mage. Then we can see how much they actually contribute.

[Karanis]

Can you post a video of you root rotting 3+ mobs while in a group with other people at Fungi King?

[PlsNoBan]

breathtaking autism

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can you post a video of you root rotting 3+ mobs while in a group with other people at Fungi King?

You didn't read the part where nobody brings Mages to Fungi King camp lol. A Mage's DPS is irrelevant there, you would use a Shaman for utility. Typically a Fungi King group looks like Shaman/Enchanter/Monk or SK and a Cleric (alt or player).

That is just a bad example because you can't bring actual evidence or logic. It's a really bad attempt at a gotcha.

We were discussing other parts of Sebilis, not Fungi King specifically. But again, Mage isn't used there, so not sure why you think it's a good example.

breathtaking autism

Still no evidence, only insults. The only autism here is you would prefer to believe something that isn't true because you like Mages.

[PlsNoBan]

Still no evidence, only insults. The only autism here is you would prefer to believe something that isn't true because you like Mages.

Evidence isn't required for something that is extremely obvious to anyone with a mediocre or better understanding of this game. I don't have a 60 mage I can go parse to shut you up but everyone else on this forum besides you is well aware that what you're saying is nonsense. You're spewing this hypothetical situation that isn't realistic 99.9% of the time as a reason why your beloved shaman is as good/better than a mage for this hypothetical 4 man caster group.

If you can keep 4 mobs perma rooted in camp at all times in addition to whatever mob the rest of the group is fighting and you can ensure all 4 of those mobs die in increments of exactly 1.5 minutes then you probably are better dps than a mage with less gear than you (no epic). Congratulations buddy. If you can pull this off for a single hour straight I will tattoo your name on my forehead. Your hypothetical circumstance where shaman > mage is so unbelievably unrealistic I have no good words to accurately describe how ridiculous it is. Even if you are somehow gods gift to everquest shamans and can somehow pull this off I assure you 99.999999% of shamans cannot and thus I can safely conclude that mage > shaman for literally every case except you in this 4 man caster group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Evidence isn't required for something that is extremely obvious to anyone with a mediocre or better understanding of this game. I don't have a 60 mage I can go parse to shut you up but everyone else on this forum besides you is well aware that what you're saying is nonsense. You're spewing this hypothetical situation that isn't realistic 99.9% of the time as a reason why your beloved shaman is as good/better than a mage for this hypothetical 4 man caster group.

If you can keep 4 mobs perma rooted in camp at all times in addition to whatever mob the rest of the group is fighting and you can ensure all 4 of those mobs die in increments of exactly 1.5 minutes then you probably are better dps than a mage with less gear than you (no epic). Congratulations buddy. If you can pull this off for a single hour straight I will tattoo your name on my forehead. Your hypothetical circumstance where shaman > mage is so unbelievably unrealistic I have no good words to accurately describe how ridiculous it is. Even if you are somehow gods gift to everquest shamans and can somehow pull this off I assure you 99.999999% of shamans cannot and thus I can safely conclude that mage > shaman for literally every case except you in this 4 man caster group.

The math is still true regardless of your protesting. I am not speaking nonsense, you are simply not happy with what I am saying because you have a Mage. I am not saying you shouldn't play a Mage. Mages are fine. I am simply showing the truth. If DPS was your primary concern, you wouldn't need to bring a Mage.

Necro or Shaman would DPS just fine on top of all the other stuff they can do. The reality is with two Enchanters you have enough DPS as it is, so I am not sure why you think a Mage would be good here anyway. Their DPS really isn't that impressive or necessary, especially for clearing Sebilis.

[Crede]

DSM just likes to play p99forum chess but when he’s checkmated after the first few moves and the person moves on he flips his king back up and attempts to keep playing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM just likes to play p99forum chess but when he’s checkmated after the first few moves and the person moves on he flips his king back up and attempts to keep playing.

It's the opposite:) This discussion was checkmated a while ago, but people just can't admit Mages are not very good. Math trumps your feelings. It is factual reality.

[Crede]

It's the opposite:) This discussion was checkmated a while ago, but people just can't admit Mages are not very good. Math trumps your feelings. It is factual reality.

Your math shows your shaman feelings, nothing else, lol. It doesn't apply to reality. While that may be true in your own little mind, you haven't convinced anyone else, hehe.

Basically what happened is you recommended a shaman, then people made you realize their utility is useless if you swap in a mage for more dps. So now you're attempting to prove shaman's are better group dps over a group dps class, lol. And we haven't even talked about epic mages.

Seriously, it's ok, just accept defeat for once, you lost this debate a long time ago, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your math shows your shaman feelings, nothing else, lol. It doesn't apply to reality. While that may be true in your own little mind, you haven't convinced anyone else, hehe.

Basically what happened is you recommended a shaman, then people made you realize their utility is useless if you swap in a mage for more dps. So now you're attempting to prove shaman's are better group dps over a group dps class, lol. And we haven't even talked about epic mages.

Seriously, it's ok, just accept defeat for once, you lost this debate a long time ago, lol.

Just because people aren't convinced, doesn't make it false lol. The strategy I described would work perfectly if you cared about max DPS. But with 2x Enchanters you don't really need the extra DPS to begin with. Epic mage is irrelevant due to it's rarity.

I have no problem accepting defeat in any debate, I have done so before. But if you are wrong why would I?

[Ripqozko]

Just because people aren't convinced, doesn't make it false lol. The strategy I described would work perfectly if you cared about max DPS. But with 2x Enchanters you don't really need the extra DPS to begin with. Epic mage is irrelevant due to it's rarity.

I have no problem accepting defeat in any debate, I have done so before. But if you are wrong why would I?

You are never wrong in your mind so you keep posting for 15 pages, basically UCF

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are never wrong in your mind so you keep posting for 15 pages, basically UCF

That is your projection, not the truth. You can look through my post history. I have admitted I am wrong plenty of times:) The simple truth is when people can't win a debate with facts and logic, they resort to name calling or character attacks.

That is the sign you have lost the debate. The only thing you can do is insult:) If I am wrong, please bring the evidence.

Troxx gave us the DPS numbers for his Mage, and I gave you the DPS numbers for my Shaman. It's really that simple.

[Crede]

That is your projection, not the truth. You can look through my post history. I have admitted I am wrong plenty of times:) The simple truth is when people can't win a debate with facts and logic, they resort to name calling or character attacks.

That is the sign you have lost the debate. The only thing you can do is insult:) If I am wrong, please bring the evidence.

Troxx gave us the DPS numbers for his Mage, and I gave you the DPS numbers for my Shaman. It's really that simple.

Your DPS numbers would never hold up in reality, lol. A mage can consistently put that out. A shaman will never have enough mobs in the camp to do that. It's simply not sustainable. Eventually the camp will be split, and you'll be sniping one at a time, in which a mage would be even better for.

You should really reconstruct your arguments. Instead of thinking "how am i going to convince people that shamans are better group dps than a group dps class" you should be thinking "how am i going to convince people that shamans utility would outweigh what a mage would bring". People might actually take you seriously then hehe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your DPS numbers would never hold up in reality, lol. A mage can consistently put that out. A shaman will never have enough mobs in the camp to do that. It's simply not sustainable. Eventually the camp will be split, and you'll be sniping one at a time, in which a mage would be even better for.

You should really reconstruct your arguments. Instead of thinking "how am i going to convince people that shamans are better group dps than a group dps class" you should be thinking "how am i going to convince people that shamans utility would outweigh what a mage would bring". People might actually take you seriously then hehe.

You easily can, especially in Sebilis. Take Disco, for example. The Shaman can literally start root/rotting Frenzied Pox Scarab room while the Enchanters start clearing Disco 1. I am not sure why people think you can't multi-task in a group if you want faster clears. Just because people don't do it, doesn't mean you can't lol.

Shaman utility easily outweighs Mage utility. Assuming you aren't doing something like Royals that needs CoTH, a Shaman has more useful spells on top of decent DPS if called for. You have Malo, Slow, AoE slow, Torpor, Shaman Pet (which can tank just fine), and buffs.

There is a reason why hard camps like Fungi King don't use a Mage. The DPS isn't going to help. You want utility and consistency so you don't lose the camp due to back luck.

The problem is you don't take your own advice, and instead just insult me when you can't win the debate. It is just silly, and you aren't convincing anyone of anything other than you are an asshole when you don't get your way.

[Crede]

You easily can, especially in Sebilis. Take Disco, for example. The Shaman can literally start root/rotting Frenzied Pox Scarab room while the Enchanters start clearing Disco 1. I am not sure why people think you can't multi-task in a group if you want faster clears. Just because people don't do it, doesn't mean you can't lol.

Shaman utility easily outweighs Mage utility. Assuming you aren't doing something like Royals that needs CoTH, a Shaman has more useful spells on top of decent DPS if called for. You have Malo, Slow, AoE slow, Torpor, Shaman Pet (which can tank just fine), and buffs.

There is a reason why hard camps like Fungi King don't use a Mage. The DPS isn't going to help. You want utility and consistency so you don't lose the camp due to back luck.

The problem is you don't take your own advice, and instead just insult me when you can't win the debate. It is just silly, and you aren't convincing anyone of anything other than you are an asshole when you don't get your way.

No, you try to make people look stupid claiming you've somehow proved some new point by "math". It's pathetic, and every post you make, people respect you less on these forums. You're not helping anybody by making ridiculous claims, so I don't know why you continue to bother.

Learn to take criticism, and find other ways to provide value here. Perhaps through guides & videos presenting general information, such as how a shaman can pull/kill something. Not ridiculous unrealistic scenario claims.

[Vexenu]

So it's suddenly not about DPS, it's about utility? What utility is a Shaman adding to Enc/Enc/Clr that surpasses what, for example, a Necro could bring?

The Necro adds:
- Snare
- Pulling
- FD/Rez for wipes
- Possibility of 3rd charm pet in undead zones
- 2nd strongest summoned pet
- Twitching mana as needed
- Screaming terror on charm breaks
- Patch healing
- Corpse summons and associated tricks
- Most hilarious of all: with Epic and VP staff, can root rot 4 mobs off to the side of the group even better than a Shaman!!! lol, lmao even

The Shaman adds:

- A better slow, which is largely redundant with 2x Enchanters
- Torpor, which is largely useless with a Cleric CHing charm pets
- A mediocre pet, much worse than the equivalent level Necro pet
- Long durations DoTs also worse than the Necro's
- Patch healing
- Malo. Not really needed in most cases (if you assume Chanters have Tola robes they also have - MR gear for pets)
- Haste? Chanters got it covered
- Buffs? Not needed with charm pets
- SoW. N/A in dungeons where it matters
- Regrowth. Lol
- Shrink?? Lol
- JBB spamming??? <--- pathetically this is probably the most you would actually contribute to the group
- Mostly just standing around being a fat fuck Ogre leeching XP and loot from the actual useful members of the group

Shaman literally adds so little to Enc/Enc/Clr that you'd basically be dead weight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, you try to make people look stupid claiming you've somehow proved some new point by "math". It's pathetic, and every post you make, people respect you less on these forums. You're not helping anybody by making ridiculous claims, so I don't know why you continue to bother.

Learn to take criticism, and find other ways to provide value here. Perhaps through guides & videos presenting general information, such as how a shaman can pull/kill something. Not ridiculous unrealistic scenario claims.

I don't try to make people look stupid. You are doing that yourself by insulting me when you have nothing to contribute:)

I show factual math, and you say "I don't like this example, therefore it doesn't count". I am sorry, but it does count, and you can easily play that way. I am sorry you don't have the imagination to think outside of playing the easy way.

[Danth]

Just because people don't do it, doesn't mean you can't lol.

I do that sort of thing duo'ing sometimes. The main reason larger groups tend not to is because when the inevitable death happens sooner or later you get the "why weren't you helping us??" argument and it sours people on the whole thing. EQ has a way of teaching people to be risk averse. But, yeah, easier camps like disco, it's an option. One area it's beneficial to do that, still an easier area but a high-traffic one, is the outer spiders in Velketor (the frenzies). P99's ruleset officially treats the named like separate camps so if you get some rule-lawyer trying to muscle his way in, a group can split and hold them down individually.

The problem here is the only camps you're going to do that at are all going to be easier areas which kind of fall beneath the needs of "best" composition. If we're talking about "best" anything in Sebilis (for example) I want to be talking about crypt or myconids, not disco or chef.

Danth

[Troxx]

Sorry on the delay with parses. Yesterday was really busy. I’ll get them compiled today from seb crypt.

[Crede]

I don't try to make people look stupid. You are doing that yourself by insulting me when you have nothing to contribute:)

I show factual math, and you say "I don't like this example, therefore it doesn't count". I am sorry, but it does count, and you can easily play that way. I am sorry you don't have the imagination to think outside of playing the easy way.

You’re right I don’t have the imagination you do. I actually play in the reality where mages are better group dps than shamans, lol since you know, they are a group dps class.

Thank you for finally admitting that you’re imaginating, can’t wait for you to convince us next that Druids are better healers than clerics too.

I’ve wasted enough time responding to your ludicrous claims for now, good day.

[PatChapp]

Shaman is second tier in that group compared to a 2nd cleric or necro,but a mage would be last pick. The only thing they offer is Malo and unneeded DPS.
Even a wizard would be preferred, better burn rate and evac.
I have a lvl 60 magician for reference, I do not hate mages they just aren't useful on that group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I do that sort of thing duo'ing sometimes. The main reason larger groups tend not to is because when the inevitable death happens sooner or later you get the "why weren't you helping us??" argument and it sours people on the whole thing. EQ has a way of teaching people to be risk averse. But, yeah, easier camps like disco, it's an option. One area it's beneficial to do that, still an easier area but a high-traffic one, is the outer spiders in Velketor (the frenzies). P99's ruleset officially treats the named like separate camps so if you get some rule-lawyer trying to muscle his way in, a group can split and hold them down individually.

The problem here is the only camps you're going to do that at are all going to be easier areas which kind of fall beneath the needs of "best" composition. If we're talking about "best" anything in Sebilis (for example) I want to be talking about crypt or myconids, not disco or chef.

Danth

I agree with this. But again you wouldn't bring a Mage to the best camps in Seb like Fungi King hehe. I am talking about the parts of Seb you would bring a Mage to, which would be camps like disco. Even Crypt has enough mobs for root/rotting, so the Mage wouldn't be any more beneficial. If people want to try and argue a different camp where Mage would be superior, I am certainly open to hear it. But the current DPS data is from Seb.

You’re right I don’t have the imagination you do. I actually play in the reality where mages are better group dps than shamans, lol since you know, they are a group dps class.

Thank you for finally admitting that you’re imaginating, can’t wait for you to convince us next that Druids are better healers than clerics too.

I’ve wasted enough time responding to your ludicrous claims for now, good day.

Lol again, being silly isn't an argument, or evidence. I am sorry that a group DPS class like mage isn't great at their job in the higher levels. Mage really shines in the lower levels.

Sorry on the delay with parses. Yesterday was really busy. I’ll get them compiled today from seb crypt.

Great!

[Danth]

If people want to try and argue a different camp where Mage would be superior, I am certainly open to hear it.

Juggernaut area probably plays most to the magician's strength since piggybacking the magician on a raid down to later call of the hero everyone in for jugg farms or named kills is how some of the groups down there do actually operate. So between those two classes the magician maybe wins, what, one out of five or six camps? I wouldn't call that a ringing endorsement. For the most part I think we can agree the shaman wins the "battle of the back-ups" for this enchanter-based quad group. For the entirety of the game I still prefer something like a necromancer over either as a 4th for our ench-ench-cler 4-man but that's separate from the magician-vs-shaman sub-debate.

Danth

[PatChapp]

We just use our guilds coth bot on poop mountain. But yes,mage nearly essential to a jugg farm.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Juggernaut area probably plays most to the magician's strength since piggybacking the magician on a raid down to later call of the hero everyone in for jugg farms or named kills is how some of the groups down there do actually operate. So between those two classes the magician maybe wins, what, one out of five or six camps? I wouldn't call that a ringing endorsement. For the most part I think we can agree the shaman wins the "battle of the back-ups" for this enchanter-based quad group. For the entirety of the game I still prefer something like a necromancer over either as a 4th for our ench-ench-cler 4-man but that's separate from the magician-vs-shaman sub-debate.

Danth

Agreed. Necro is a great pick too. There's room to change things about based on what you are doing. For Fungi King you would want Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Cleric. For something like Charasis putting in a Necro would be very nice. I am a bit on the fence as to if you would want 2 Enchanters at that point, since the Necro would probably be charming as well, and most mobs down there aren't terribly difficult. But Necromancer/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric would certainly chew through mobs in Charasis.

Good point about Juggs. As you and PatChapp point out your Mages are going to be on poop mountain anyway. Send 'em in for the Jugg farm.

[Keebz]

People keeping losing the message. The mage is there mainly for malo + pet. The pet is really good on charm breaks and malo helps reduce charm breaks. Because there are 2 chanters, the value of this is doubled. The added utility and DPS are secondary to that.

People have suggested Necro instead, which is a fair argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People keeping losing the message. The mage is there mainly for malo + pet. The pet is really good on charm breaks and malo helps reduce charm breaks. Because there are 2 chanters, the value of this is doubled. The added utility and DPS are secondary to that.

People have suggested Necro instead, which is a fair argument.

I didn't lose the message. Shamans can Malo (a better Malo too), and the Shaman pet can off-tank Charm breaks just fine in Seb. DPS-wise a Shaman can indeed keep up with a Mage if you split your efforts. Even just root/rotting two mobs gets you to the low end DPS of Troxx's Mage. A Mage offers nothing of value over a Shaman in most of Seb. CoTHing to Juggs is a good point, but that is only one camp:)

[Keebz]

I didn't lose the message.

There's 15 pages of DPS arguing that shows otherwise.

I don't know what happened in your life that you feel like have to control every thread on p99 forums, but I wish you the very best in getting it back on track.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's 15 pages of DPS arguing that shows otherwise.

I don't know what happened in your life that you feel like have to control every thread on p99 forums, but I wish you the very best in getting it back on track.

The math is quite clear DPS-wise. 100 pages of people trying to deny it won't change the math.

But you said it yourself: the DPS is secondary. That makes Mages even worse hehe, because a Shaman can offer the exact same Charm break safety, plus they can also slow and heal. If both pets Charm break, having two healers means you can heal both Enchanters at the same time if necessary. Plus Shamans have AoE slow hehe. Just slow the broken mobs if it's an emergency.

EDIT: I may be wrong about Haste overriding Slow. I am thinking of the other way around, where Slow overrides Haste.

You have a strange idea of how forums work if you think I am "controlling threads" lol. I am offering information, and people who don't like me for whatever reason want to chime in to attack me. Stick to the topic and prove me wrong with logic and evidence.

[Troxx]

Point of the parses will be only to DSM that I’m not lying about mage dps. For the record we had a monk with fist of nature (tunare) and priceless velium wraps that I consistently beat the dps of. This doesn’t mean mage is better than that monk … far from it … but in the singular role of dps mages are a top notch choice. And they don’t need raid gear or epic pet to do it. They don’t magically get weaker at 60.

Mages have well known limitations. But for what they do well (killing shit) we do admirably.

Ps unless the ench was nuking a lot that I couldn’t parse I beat the ench charm pet quite on many fights. Again mages are not better than enchanters globally at all. They are good at making shit dead though.

[Troxx]

Mages are A-ok. Not overpowered but they are strong at what they do.

[Troxx]

Gotta mow and weed eater the lawn then I’ll sit down and compile the hours of fights (the good the bad and the ugly)

[Troxx]

Can we get an epic mage with pet focus to post some parses and shut this moron up please?

You don’t need an epic mage to make the point. My 60 water pet (unfocused - I have no staff) and nukes alone with c2 will demonstrate the point.

Parses incoming in a bit. It’ll show you what we already know. Mages are quite good at making things dead.

[Troxx]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Bear in mind that things get weird when you combine fights. Actual dps levels for everyone involved (scaled or otherwise) are below actual real time values parsed.

I have highlighted myself and my 60 water pet unfocused.

Xeff: high level sk well geared; engaged first always
Grandmaster: 60 monk with tunare's fist of tunare and priceless velium wraps 15/20
Konober and Kekab: epic mage pet from another epic. I can only guess he didn't mask it or keep it hasted like it should have been.

Comparatively Ailowen + unfocused 60 water pet is the highlighted above.

See the monk's time engaged and you can see why he was below the SK and lower than me to such a degree; he spent a lot of time not engaged. What you can see is that mage dps is very good. This parse undervalues on the combine by a good 30% as my parse system is not perfect.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Bear in mind that things get weird when you combine fights. Actual dps levels for everyone involved (scaled or otherwise) are below actual real time values parsed.

I have highlighted myself and my 60 water pet unfocused.

Xeff: high level sk well geared; engaged first always
Grandmaster: 60 monk with tunare's fist of tunare and priceless velium wraps 15/20
Konober and Kekab: epic mage pet from another epic. I can only guess he didn't mask it or keep it hasted like it should have been.

Comparatively Ailowen + unfocused 60 water pet is the highlighted above.

See the monk's time engaged and you can see why he was below the SK and lower than me to such a degree; he spent a lot of time not engaged. What you can see is that mage dps is very good. This parse undervalues on the combine by a good 30% as my parse system is not perfect.

Thanks for the parse!

Looking at the data I am confused about how you said you were out-DPSing a Charmed pet in a previous post. The Krup Knight did 86 DPS, you did 79 DPS when combining the pet and your nuking. Even if you want to say a heavy nuking session can temporarily out-DPS the 86 DPS, that isn't going to be all the time, and if you Charmed a better pet in a different zone, they would have even higher DPS.

To be clear, the Monk is out-DPSing your pet. If his engage time was higher, his DPS would be higher too. Considering Nukes take mana, you are going to have med time, so your actual DPS isn't going to be a consistent 40 all the time. It will depend on the fight. How much down time do you take for medding due to Nukes?

I don't think anyone has disputed Epic Mage pet does more DPS. The unfortunate thing is it's pretty rare to find Epic Mages, so in most cases you aren't going to have one in your group. That is why I am not really counting that in this discussion. But let's say you are an Epic Mage. That puts your DPS at 104 if we use Kabekab instead.

I parsed a Rogue in Sebilis today, we were duoing. He was doing 133 DPS roughly, just with Rogue Epic and a good offhand, forgot which one exactly.

As I said before, my Shaman can do 34 DPS per target just with two DoTs. If I was applying 3 DoTs to two mobs in a fight, I would be at 96 DPS consistently. With pet I would be at 107 DPS.

I don't see anything special here that makes Mages amazing. Their pet gets out-DPSed by player classes and Charmed Pets. When they Nuke they can double their DPS, but that is mana dependent. A Shaman or Necromancer could certainly out-DPS a Mage over a long play session with their DoTs and having better mana recovery.

[Troxx]

Like i said it gets weird combining parses. They are really far off the mark. I could cherry pick individual fights but thats not fair. I have fights over 180dps and some under 80dps. Just trying to be honest.

ACTUAL DPS depends a lot on the player and if they are paying attention.

What i can say is most of the time ench pet when on target won by far. A few times i beat it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Like i said it gets weird combining parses. They are really far off the mark. I could cherry pick individual fights but thats not fair. I have fights over 180dps and some under 80dps. Just trying to be honest.

What i can say is most of the time ench pet when on target won by far. A few times i beat it.

You need to show the actual data then:) I can't just take your word that it is better. I am not accusing you of lying at all, but I am not sure why you posted that screenshot at all if it isn't correct.

[Troxx]

what do you want? single parses showing amaze balls or sustained parses of a 60 group geared mage out-dpsing a monk with tunares fist and 15/20 offhand? I'm confused. The numbers fuck up with combined parses but the relative value compared to known variables (ie a raid geared monk) still stands.

[Troxx]

Cause i can cherry pick 200dps parses if thats what you want but it doesnt reflect what to expect from a mage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

what do you want? single parses showing amaze balls or sustained parses of a 60 group geared mage out-dpsing a monk with tunares fist and 15/20 offhand? I'm confused.

Just show the average DPS of you fighting some single mobs in Sebilis hehe. That is how you would calculate DPS. Trying to get a full DPS check over an hour in a group just has too many variables (and chances to miss logs).

As you said, DPS is heavily dependent on a lot of factors, so we need to keep it simple.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do a fight where all you use is your pet, you just need to calculate how many seconds it took to kill the mob vs. their max life. Then do a fight where you nuke as well. Tell us how much mana you spent so we can see how often you can nuke.

[Troxx]

like you said how often i can nuke is math ...

It's not rocket surgery

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

like you said how often i can nuke is math ...

It's not rocket surgery

lol

I don't know which combination of spells you use, and how many:) so I can't just guess out of thin air from wiki data.

[PlsNoBan]

what do you want?

I appreciate what you tried to do and every sane person will look at those numbers and realize what we all knew all along. That mages are much better consistent damage in MOST situations than a shaman will ever be. Unfortunately we're arguing with someone who's lost his marbles and refuses to concede his obviously idiotic argument no matter what anyone says or any amount of data showing otherwise. You can jump through literally every hoop he lays out and show numbers that proves him wrong and he'll just move the goalpost.

I'm disappointed in myself really. Deep down I know this person is a moron and can't be reasoned with and its pointless to try. Yet part of me can't help but try to argue some sense into them. I should know better but I never learn my lesson lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate what you tried to do and every sane person will look at those numbers and realize what we all knew all along. That mages are much better consistent damage in MOST situations than a shaman will ever be. Unfortunately we're arguing with someone who's lost his marbles and refuses to concede his obviously idiotic argument no matter what anyone says or any amount of data showing otherwise. You can jump through literally every hoop he lays out and show numbers that proves him wrong and he'll just move the goalpost.

I'm disappointed in myself really. Deep down I know this person is a moron and can't be reasoned with and its pointless to try. Yet part of me can't help but try to argue some sense into them. I should know better but I never learn my lesson lol

Just saying you are right means nothing. Data please. So far your only data is insulting people lol. I don't know what data you are looking at, but the stuff Troxx posted shows pretty low DPS for a Mage to be honest.

[PlsNoBan]

breathtaking autism

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Still no data I see:) You continue to lose the argument by not participating at all lol.

[PlsNoBan]

Still no data I see:) You continue to lose the argument by not participating at all lol.

What the fuck data do you want? Someone posted a parse and you made 15 posts about how its wrong and they need to redo it and say how many times they nuked and how much mana it costs or some shit. Contrary to what you seem to believe I do not possess a lvl 60 mage. The highest I ever got a mage on P99 is like 8. I have no particular love for the class. I actually mained a shaman as you know on P99 and I enjoy the class way more than mage. Yet somehow I'm able to acknowledge that in this hypothetical 4 caster group a shaman isn't the ideal choice. I have ungodly thousands of hours worth of time spent playing this game and know it as good or better than most. What I and almost everyone else knows for a fact is that a mage will out damage a shaman over an extended period of time in an average xp group 99.999% of the time. If you want to keep clinging on to your fucking asinine claim that you can do as much/more damage by root rotting 4 mobs permanently in your xp groups all the time then so be it dude. It takes about 6 brain cells to understand how fucking dumb and unrealistic that is. But if that's the hill you want to die on be my guest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What the fuck data do you want? Someone posted a parse and you made 15 posts about how its wrong and they need to redo it and say how many times they nuked and how much mana it costs or some shit. Contrary to what you seem to believe I do not possess a lvl 60 mage. The highest I ever got a mage on P99 is like 8. I have no particular love for the class. I actually mained a shaman as you know on P99 and I enjoy the class way more than mage. Yet somehow I'm able to acknowledge that in this hypothetical 4 caster group a shaman isn't the ideal choice. I have ungodly thousands of hours worth of time spent playing this game and know it as good or better than most. What I and almost everyone else knows for a fact is that a mage will out damage a shaman over an extended period of time in an average xp group 99.999% of the time. If you want to keep clinging on to your fucking asinine claim that you can do as much/more damage by root rotting 4 mobs permanently in your xp groups all the time then so be it dude. It takes about 6 brain cells to understand how fucking dumb and unrealistic that is. But if that's the hill you want to die on be my guest.

What do you mean what do I want? I just want basic DPS and mana usage data from a 60 Mage lol. It's really not a big ask, and doesn't take long. It's REALLY easy to math out which class has better average DPS. Let me know which mob(s) you are fighting so I can fight the same ones on my Shaman, so we get equivalent data based on the difficulty of the mob.

People keep arguing that Mages are good in a group because of Malo + Pet Tanking + DPS. A Shaman can provide all three of those, plus extra. If a Mage's DPS is lower than what people assume, then there really is no reason to pick Mage over Shaman unless you need CoTH support. You did read the title of the thread, yes? We are discussing which classes would be better in this group.

I can't prove your "thousands of hours" of playtime, so it's not a valid data point. I am sorry, but you can be wrong and play thousands of hours simultaneously.

I showed I can do 107 DPS when DoTing just two mobs, so the 4 mobs isn't necessary.

According to Troxx's data a Shaman can out DPS a Mage when DoTing two mobs. He didn't mention how often he can do 40 DPS via nuking due to mana usage, so his average may even be lower. If Troxx (the provider of the data) says the data isn't correct, then provide better data. I am not sure why this is hard.

I will happily admit I am wrong if the data shows otherwise.

Also, please remember I am talking about level 60s. Mages are indeed better than Shamans at lower levels because a Shaman without Epic/Torpor is going to be doing a lot less DPS. I have never said otherwise hehe, you can check the post history.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/8n0UgcG.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No data, just silliness. You can't win an argument that way hehe.

[Danth]

but the stuff Troxx posted shows pretty low DPS for a Mage to be honest.

Not really. The overwhelming majority of players over-rate their own damage dealt and typcially only look at or post cherry-picked best-case-scenario parses. Troxx has always been pretty good about trying to keep things grounded to reality. I think you know this, even if you're coming at it from the opposite direction, because you already know the shaman's a better offensive class than most folks fully appreciate.

As for the shaman, your example I expect represents using dual Bane of Nife plus an Envenomed Bolt to get into the mid 90's. That's near 1200 mana per two mobs, for ~45-50 second-odd duration spells, and since it takes a little longer to recover that much mana, plus the offensive spell cast times, you need mobs that are dying at just the right rate then slight gaps between the next pulls if you want to sustain that output. It does not permit the shaman much leeway for using malo (another 350 mana per) or his own slow. Granted Mala costs just as much mana and the magician can't recover mana as quickly as a shaman can so it hurts the magician's mana bar even more.

That's where your opponents are going to pile on: It's doable, but it requires fairly specific circumstances that the group in question has to deliberately maintain while also managing a couple of charm pets and other pulls. The magician achieves effectively its full potential in a brain-dead manner that requires no planning or thought, so in practice it'll tend to reach that level more consistently. But as has been said, I'll prefer the shaman between those two anyway, outside a specific handful of areas, simply because in a group that's already ripping everything to shreds the extra defense offered by the shaman counts for more than a slightly increased killspeed that nobody's even going to notice anyway.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not really. The overwhelming majority of players over-rate their own damage dealt and typcially only look at or post cherry-picked best-case-scenario parses. Troxx has always been pretty good about trying to keep things grounded to reality. I think you know this, even if you're coming at it from the opposite direction, because you already know the shaman's a better offensive class than most folks fully appreciate.

As for the shaman, your example I expect represents using dual Bane of Nife plus an Envenomed Bolt to get into the mid 90's. That's near 1200 mana per two mobs, for ~45-50 second-odd duration spells, and since it takes a little longer to recover that much mana, plus the offensive spell cast times, you need mobs that are dying at just the right rate then slight gaps between the next pulls if you want to sustain that output. It does not permit the shaman much leeway for using malo (another 350 mana per) or his own slow. Granted Mala costs just as much mana and the magician can't recover mana as quickly as a shaman can so it hurts the magician's mana bar even more.

That's where your opponents are going to pile on: It's doable, but it requires fairly specific circumstances that the group in question has to deliberately maintain while also managing a couple of charm pets and other pulls. The magician achieves effectively its full potential in a brain-dead manner that requires no planning or thought, so in practice it'll tend to reach that level more consistently. But as has been said, I'll prefer the shaman between those two anyway, outside a specific handful of areas, simply because in a group that's already ripping everything to shreds the extra defense offered by the shaman counts for more than a slightly increased killspeed that nobody's even going to notice anyway.

Danth

I trust the screenshot he sent, which shows 80 DPS. I have no reason to doubt it. However, I don't know what he means when he says he can do 180 DPS. That is what I am questioning. I could do 180 DPS too if I piled on an additional DoT in one of my previous examples. That doesn't mean I could sustain it hehe.

For the DPS calculation it depends on the situation. Epic Click + Pox on two root/rotted mobs is 65 DPS for 860 mana. With Pet that is basically 75 DPS. This assumes you are having the Shaman root/rotting mobs while the Enchanters are fighting other mobs, which allows the DoTs to fully finish. The math is (1425 + 2088) / 108 seconds = 32.5 DPS per mob, + 11 from pet.

If you want a faster "combat DPS", you would use Bane + Envenomed for 60 DPS, and with a pet that would be 71 DPS. Both end up costing 750 mana. Since there is no change in damage, the math is (214 + 146) / 6 = 60 DPS per mob, + 11 from pet. You don't need full duration here, each tick is 60 DPS. Pet average DPS will obviously vary a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 15 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 17 mana per second. This means you can recover the 800 mana in 47 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets.

Math-wise Mages just don't really offer much in this group, other than maybe a little bit more DPS if you don't want to have the Shaman root rot hehe. As you say, the difference in kill speed is negligible with two Enchanters typically.

[Danth]

As you say, the difference in kill speed is negligible with two Enchanters typically.

Right, we're absolutely on the same page here. I've done the shaman mana recovery rate trials myself awhile back. Even if the magician wins he still loses because he can't win by enough to justify giving up everything he gives up for a killrate difference that'll be measured in mere seconds. They arguably both lose compared to some other options but that's beside the point here.

[Troxx]

DSM … all I gotta say is


LOL

[Troxx]

Nubs be nubs…

And the worst nubs are the pseudointellectual’s who think they be smert

Nubs be nubs

/thread

[PlsNoBan]

No data, just silliness. You can't win an argument that way hehe.

Can't win an argument with a dense brick wall either so might as well meme. Take my word for it.

[Troxx]

I trust the screenshot he sent, which shows 80 DPS.

I already told you it gets weird compiling multiple fights. It undervalues all dps. Use Grandmaster (60 monk with below weapons) as the baseline.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Fist_of_Nature

https://wiki.project1999.com/Priceless_Velium_Fist_Wraps

You really think a 60 monk with that setup is only 48dps? Lol my 60 monk with epic fists and /scepter or mastery is in the 60-70dps range.

Rub your brain cells together and scale it up.

Jesus help me.

[Troxx]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Bear in mind that things get weird when you combine fights. Actual dps levels for everyone involved (scaled or otherwise) are below actual real time values parsed.

I have highlighted myself and my 60 water pet unfocused.

Xeff: high level sk well geared; engaged first always
Grandmaster: 60 monk with tunare's fist of tunare and priceless velium wraps 15/20
Konober and Kekab: epic mage pet from another epic. I can only guess he didn't mask it or keep it hasted like it should have been.

Comparatively Ailowen + unfocused 60 water pet is the highlighted above.

See the monk's time engaged and you can see why he was below the SK and lower than me to such a degree; he spent a lot of time not engaged. What you can see is that mage dps is very good. This parse undervalues on the combine by a good 30% as my parse system is not perfect.

[TomisFeline]

this was a painful thread to read

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why are you blaming me for your inaccurate data then? Lol the only silly person here is you Troxx. You give out data, and then complain that your own data isn't correct when the DPS for your Mage isn't great. Please provide better data if you think it isn't good. You say it undervalues the combine by 30%, but it matters whether most of that 30% is coming from you or the pet, because mana plays a factor in how often you can nuke.

I already told you how to get the DPS data, but you haven't provided it yet. Fight a single mob with pet only. Fight a single mob with pet and nukes. Report mana and spell usage. Report what mob you fought. All you need to do is divide max HP by how many seconds it took to kill the mob. For example, when I was duoing with a Rogue in Sebilis, he could kill a Froglok Dar Knight in 45 seconds. That mob has 6000 HP, so 6000/45 = 133 DPS.

This thread is over until you do, because your own data shows Mage DPS as nothing special:) Another Mage reported 40-50 DPS with their pet, so the numbers are probably closer than you think.

Reposting Shaman DPS.


For the DPS calculation it depends on the situation. Epic Click + Pox on two root/rotted mobs is 65 DPS for 860 mana. With Pet that is basically 75 DPS. This assumes you are having the Shaman root/rotting mobs while the Enchanters are fighting other mobs, which allows the DoTs to fully finish. The math is (1425 + 2088) / 108 seconds = 32.5 DPS per mob, + 11 from pet.

If you want a faster "combat DPS", you would use Bane + Envenomed for 60 DPS, and with a pet that would be 71 DPS. Both end up costing 750 mana. Since there is no change in damage, the math is (214 + 146) / 6 = 60 DPS per mob, + 11 from pet. You don't need full duration here, each tick is 60 DPS. Pet average DPS will obviously vary a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 15 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 17 mana per second. This means you can recover the 800 mana in 47 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets.

Math-wise Mages just don't really offer much in this group, other than maybe a little bit more DPS if you don't want to have the Shaman root rot hehe. As you say, the difference in kill speed is negligible with two Enchanters typically.

Currently Troxx is showing 80DPS for a Mage without Epic, and a 60 Shaman with Epic/Torpor/Bane/Pox can do 70ish DPS with fairly low mana investment for a Shaman. Obviously both Mages and Shamans can do much more if they spam nukes/DoTs, but that is less sustainable. There is no reason to take a Mage over a Shaman for something like a 10-20 DPS increase in a group with 2 Charmed Enchanter pets already. You are saving a few seconds at best per kill. You'll get a few more kills after 5-10 hours hehe. Remember, this is talking about level 60 characters. Before 60 Mages are better than Shamans because Shamans provide less utility and DPS.

[PlsNoBan]

Raise your hand if you want an idiot shaman in your group root rotting adds all over your camp to justify their dps instead of just bringing a mage that can do more on single targets without training the camp and preventing mez


https://i.imgur.com/v8Kdg1w.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Raise your hand if you want an idiot shaman in your group root rotting adds all over your camp to justify their dps instead of just bringing a mage that can do more on single targets without training the camp and preventing mez

Not sure how that would cause a train if the Shaman is nearby. You're understanding of pathing needs work I think. You also didn't read the DPS I showed that doesn't even involve rooting:)

Raise your hand if you would prefer 10-20 DPS over heals, buffs, slows, and a better malo.

[eqravenprince]

Thank you for all the feedback. I think everyone has a lot of great ideas/thoughts on this subject. We went with shaman, enchanter and 2 necros. I'm the one playing the extra necro. I could have gone enchanter or mage, but with kids/wife it's nice to just feign death and afk at a moments notice. But I do agree in theory that possibly either of those classes offered a bit more than an extra necro.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for all the feedback. I think everyone has a lot of great ideas/thoughts on this subject. We went with shaman, enchanter and 2 necros. I'm the one playing the extra necro. I could have gone enchanter or mage, but with kids/wife it's nice to just feign death and afk at a moments notice. But I do agree in theory that possibly either of those classes offered a bit more than an extra necro.

Great combo! You are going to destroy things.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is basically UCF but with a guild tag still.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is basically UCF but with a guild tag still.

Ripqozko is basically UCF but without a guild tag. Also people still don't care about your bad Warder loot. Sorry you think participation trophies are bragging rights.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll post an example so Troxx can follow suit if he wishes to on his Mage:


My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS


This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

[Jibartik]

That's an ok pet name, but....

[Toxigen]

jesus christ i come back from vacation to another 20+ page sperg thread

the answer is enc, enc, enc, cleric and there is no debate otherwise

next.

[PlsNoBan]

jesus christ i come back from vacation to another 20+ page sperg thread

the answer is enc, enc, enc, cleric and there is no debate otherwise

next.

https://i.imgur.com/ElyID3P.gif

[loramin]

jesus christ i come back from vacation to another 20+ page sperg thread

the answer is enc, enc, enc, cleric and there is no debate otherwise

next.

Wrong answer in classic EQ, correct answer for P99.

[PlsNoBan]

Wrong answer in classic EQ, correct answer for P99.

It was probably the correct answer in classic too. People just didn't know any better and/or weren't as good at the game. Competent enchanters can manage charm pets with almost zero or zero issues for extended periods of time these days. But yeah generally I agree with you. Funny how a shaman main can acknowledge that shaman isn't necessarily the best at everything in every situation. Odd concept lol

[Vexenu]

DSM, we've already established that your appeals to "the math" are bullshit. I gave you the example of shotgunning a beer: just because you can drink a beer in five seconds that way does not mean you can extrapolate out and claim you can drink 720 beers per hour. It doesn't matter if you're spamming Canni and Torpor non-stop, with C2, bard song and your Ogre grandma's magical pair of mana-regenerating panties on your head. You are not going to out-DPS a Mage over the length of an average group. You aren't even going to come close. You're going to sit there root rotting mobs for over 800 mana a pop (you conveniently ignore root mana cost in your calc despite claiming you will kill four a time) while the Mage just has to refresh pet haste and DS every few minutes. He can just sit there spamming Burnt Wood Staff/Lord Bob boots for additional mana-free damage. He can do that all day long. Meanwhile you're blowing 800 mana per kill and claiming you can keep up the same kill rate. You're positively demented.

There's a reason literally no one has ever seen the following sentence uttered in the entire history of P1999: "Group looking for Shaman for DPS".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The math is still fact. You didn't even read my post based on how bad your understanding of it is. Your entire post is just nonsensical and a waste of time. Read my posts properly so you don't look like a fool.

I am sorry you are in denial. There is a reason why level 60 groups only look for Mages when they need CoTH:)

[PlsNoBan]

There is a reason why level 60 groups only look for Mages when they need CoTH:)

LOL

[Citation Needed]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just going to repost this in the hopes people actually read it.


My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

Troxx's Mage was averaging 80 DPS based on the data he has given. An Epic Mage could do 104 DPS based on the data he has given.

To set the root/rotting method straight, this example is root/rotting three mobs in one room while the two Enchanters are killing in another room. Epic + Pox + Paralyzing Earth on 3 mobs costs 1600 mana. The DPS is (1425 + 2088) / 108 seconds = 32.5 DPS per mob. I can recover that mana in 100 seconds if you read how quickly a Torpor Shaman can recover mana in the quote above. This means I could do 97.5 DPS, not including my pet. Based on the logs above, the pet is adding another 15 DPS. So a Shaman could do 110 DPS roughly with this method, and recover all of the mana by the time the DoTs expire. This is above Troxx's standard 80 DPS, and the 104 DPS if we use a Mage Epic Pet instead. Again, Epic Mages are quite rare, so I wouldn't be expecting that DPS most of the time when a Mage joins your group.

Sadly Mage DPS isn't anything special at level 60. It is why most Mages end up being CoTH bots.

[cd288]

The math is still fact. You didn't even read my post based on how bad your understanding of it is. Your entire post is just nonsensical and a waste of time. Read my posts properly so you don't look like a fool.

I am sorry you are in denial. There is a reason why level 60 groups only look for Mages when they need CoTH:)

At this point I really assume you’re intentionally trolling. No one could this frequently take terrible positions and then just die on the hill over them.

Either that or you’re just unable to ever accede that you could be wrong about something. Bet you’re fun at cocktail parties

[DeathsSilkyMist]

At this point I really assume you’re intentionally trolling. No one could this frequently take terrible positions and then just die on the hill over them.

Either that or you’re just unable to ever accede that you could be wrong about something. Bet you’re fun at cocktail parties

This isn't how you actually debate or win an argument. "I am right and you are wrong" means nothing. You haven't provided any counter-evidence, probably because you have none. I would love to see it.

I am sorry that you cannot accept actual data. Your inability to accept it doesn't change the facts, regardless of how much you want it to.

[Karanis]

DSM, just because you can drink a beer in five seconds does not mean you can drink 720 beers per hour.

Can we get an hour-long video of you pumping shaman dps to the max in some kind of group?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can we get an hour-long video of you pumping shaman dps to the max in some kind of group?

At this point we really need a video of a level 60 Mage, so we can see what they can do. I have a whole youtube channel full of videos of my Shaman, while all of these posters who don't like the data have yet to even show logs besides Troxx lol. The burden of proof is on the side of people defending Mages. It is pretty one sided right now in terms of evidence. I am providing the vast majority of it, while everybody else is basically trolling. Troxx is the only one to provide data (thank you for that), but the data doesn't show Mages in a great position. If his data is wrong, someone else needs to step up and bring some.

[Vivitron]

Troxx's Mage was averaging 80 DPS based on the data he has given.

That's an aggressively careless interpretation of Troxx's claims. Let me remind you:

Ailowen (60 mage) + pet (water) minus DS so far seb crypt

Low: 72dps
High: 175dps

I'll post screenshots later. busy at the moment

New pets are definitely weaker. I'm a sad panda but still averaging 90-110dps overall per xp group fight

Bear in mind that things get weird when you combine fights. Actual dps levels for everyone involved (scaled or otherwise) are below actual real time values parsed.

Troxx's claim isn't 80 dps; his claims are that he did about 172% of the dps of the well geared sk (about 165% of the dps of the Tunare wielding monk), and that he eyeballed the average (each single fight gives him the real dps number; only the combined fights degrade to relative dps) to be about 90-110 dps.

We can do a sanity check on these relative values by assuming the real dps of one of the characters and calculating what that would imply the real dps of the others to be. If we assume 90 dps for Troxx it puts the sk at 52 dps and the monk at 55. If we assume 110 dps for Troxx it puts the sk at 64 dps and the monk at 67. If we assume 60 melee dps for the sk (plausible to me based on parses I've done in seb), it would put Troxx at ~103 dps.

[Ripqozko]

Need fraps with 7 different angles and assist target macros or these fraps arent viable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's an aggressively careless interpretation of Troxx's claims. Let me remind you:

Troxx's claim isn't 80 dps; his claims are that he did about 172% of the dps of the well geared sk (about 165% of the dps of the Tunare wielding monk), and that he eyeballed the average (each single fight gives him the real dps number; only the combined fights degrade to relative dps) to be about 90-110 dps.

We can do a sanity check on these relative values by assuming the real dps of one of the characters and calculating what that would imply the real dps of the others to be. If we assume 90 dps for Troxx it puts the sk at 52 dps and the monk at 55. If we assume 110 dps for Troxx it puts the sk at 64 dps the monk at 67. If we assume 60 melee dps for the sk (plausible to me based on parses I've done in seb), it would put Troxx at ~103 dps.

It's not a careless interpretation at all. His data shows 80 DPS. He says it is undervalued by 30%, but there is no proof of that. I don't have the data his parser is using to get those values, so he could be wrong. He also hasn't provided his mana usage data, so his personal DPS via nukes could be lower.

His 72-175 DPS claim (which wasn't the screenshot he posted) means very little, because we don't know how he hit 175 DPS. My Shaman can easily hit 175 DPS too, but it wouldn't be sustainable. I doubt his 175 DPS is from anything other than an unsustainable Nuke chain. But if he provides logs, I could easily be proven wrong.

I posted the exact logs of my fight, so you can calculate it yourself if you don't believe it.

Anybody with a 60 Mage can hop on the game and do this:

Fight a single mob with pet only. Fight a single mob with pet and nukes. Report mana and spell usage. Report what mob you fought. All you need to do is divide max HP by how many seconds it took to kill the mob. For example, when I was duoing with a Rogue in Sebilis, he could kill a Froglok Dar Knight in 45 seconds. That mob has 6000 HP, so 6000/45 = 133 DPS.

Post the logs in a similar manner to how I posted mine, and we can get a Mage's average DPS. It's really not hard, but no one is willing to do it.

[Karanis]

I have a whole youtube channel full of short videos of my Shaman, not root rotting in a group, not pumping DPS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And you Karanis have zero videos of anything Mage related:) You don't even have logs, which are much easier to post. I don't know how many times I have to ask for logs before someone will do it. It takes less than 30 minutes to hop on, kill a few things, and copy/paste the logs onto the forums.

[ezigrelnos]

The reality is it matters on the level range and what camps you are doing. OP didn't specify either. 4x Enchanters would be great in Mistmoore, for example. But unless you only play the game to play mid-level dungeons, the "overall average power" needs to take into account higher level camps too.

higher level camps like what are we talking loot, xp, or pp?

any way you cut it sure the cleric is nice but in a perfect world with voice comms and a 100% focused group of 4 enchanters how are you taking damage? please tell me

oh RNG resist my gear ect no, u have 4 aoe stuns like how do you mess this up on paper its literally untouchable but everyone says the "oh my shaman cleric mage with the stuff" you're redundant just admit enchanters are broken and can mitigate all your bonuses while providing substantial DPS

thats why a lot of people say 3enc1cler but people can't play 100% 4ench and require heals because they cant coordinate the stuns/effort required

[DeathsSilkyMist]

higher level camps like what are we talking loot, xp, or pp?

any way you cut it sure the cleric is nice but in a perfect world with voice comms and a 100% focused group of 4 enchanters how are you taking damage? please tell me

oh RNG resist my gear ect no, u have 4 aoe stuns like how do you mess this up on paper its literally untouchable but everyone says the "oh my shaman cleric mage with the stuff" you're redundant just admit enchanters are broken and can mitigate all your bonuses while providing substantial DPS

thats why a lot of people say 3enc1cler but people can't play 100% 4ench and require heals because they cant coordinate the stuns/effort required

I never said Enchanters arent broken hehe. At a high level, safety and utility is preferred over raw kill speed. You want to stay at the camp without wiping so other people don't take it. That is why you bring a cleric and a Shaman to Fungi King, for example.

In an XP group 4 Enchanters is overkill, and as you say most people aren't willing to coordinate at that level. Even when that coordination occurs, accidents still can happen (including things like lag). Saving a minute on clears isn't worth the risk of dying, which negates the saved time. I personally have never seen a 4 man group of Enchanters either hehe.

[Karanis]

I don't recall ever claiming to even have a mage. It's just that I, like most people in this thread, understand that being in this hypothetical caster 4-man with charmed pets, root-rotting off-targets in an attempt to match or surpass mage dps in a proper camp that level 60s actually give a shit about, such as fungi king or anything else remotely high level, where mobs often summon and have higher than average resist rates, is the dumbest take I've ever heard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't recall ever claiming to even have a mage. It's just that I, like most people in this thread, understand that being in this hypothetical caster 4-man with charmed pets, root-rotting off-targets in an attempt to match or surpass mage dps in a proper camp that level 60s actually give a shit about, such as fungi king or anything else remotely high level, where mobs often summon and have higher than average resist rates, is the dumbest take I've ever heard.

You haven't been reading the thread at all. None of what you said is true.

I showed DPS that doesn't need root. A Shaman can do 70 DPS just with Pet + Bane + Envenomed Bolt and recover that mana in 40 seconds.

I never said you would root at Fungi King, and people don't bring mages to Fungi King. I am not sure why people keep using Fungi King for Mages lol. A Fungi King camp usually has a Shaman/Enchanter/Monk (or SK) and a Cleric.

[Karanis]

I've read this entire train wreck of a thread along with a couple others that you've been making braindead takes in actually, but carry on with your delusions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've read this entire train wreck of a thread along with a couple others that you've been making braindead takes in actually, but carry on with your delusions.

No, you didn't, because you think I said you would root/rot at Fungi King. That has never been said anywhere in this thread. Idk what you are reading, but that is the only delusion here:) You can root/rot a large portion of Sebilis since a lot of mobs are 50 or below. Those are the camps where you will find Mages in Sebilis, not Fungi King. Juggs are the one place in Sebilis where Mages are good, because of CoTH:)

A Shaman can do 70 DPS without root/rotting and recover the mana. Troxx is showing a Mage can do 80 DPS. If you think 80 DPS is low for a Mage, convince people to post logs.

[Karanis]

If you think that's what Troxx was showing, then I guess you think Fist of Nature/Primal Wraps pulls a nice 45-50 dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you think that's what Troxx was showing, then I guess you think Fist of Nature/Primal Wraps pulls a nice 45-50 dps.

Thats the only data he has posted. Don't blame me if its bad hehe. His 72-175 data has nothing showing what his average is. My Shaman can do 72-175 DPS too.

[Troxx]

Troxx's Mage was averaging 80 DPS based on the data he has given. An Epic Mage could do 104 DPS based on the data he has given.

The same parse also had a level 60 monk with Raid gear and enchanter haste and a 15/18 and 15/20 weapon parsing 39dps

I swear you’re just being obtuse now. I have already explained to you that it gets weird when you compile fights. Another way to think of it is this … however much dps a raid geared monk can dish out with 15/18 and 15/20 … I was basically doubling that just by sicking the pet and lobbing the same 825dd nuke over and over.

C’mon buddy, enough with the straw man arguments. Rub dem brain cells together

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just post some logs Troxx. I am not sure why its so hard. You could prove me wrong in 30 minutes lol. Please stop blaming me for your own data. If it's wrong, don't post it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fight a single mob with pet only. Fight a single mob with pet and nukes. Report mana and spell usage. Report what mob you fought. All you need to do is divide max HP by how many seconds it took to kill the mob. For example, when I was duoing with a Rogue in Sebilis, he could kill a Froglok Dar Knight in 45 seconds. That mob has 6000 HP, so 6000/45 = 133 DPS.

This is what we need. If you can provide these logs, we can get a good representation of your average DPS. There is no more random obfuscation from you claiming the numbers are higher (which we can't prove with your current screenshot). Same with your 72-175DPS number. My Shaman can hit that too, it doesn't mean you are averaging anywhere near 175 DPS.

[Troxx]

Just got home from work. Want singles broken out not compiled? Heres a few

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

Later on in same group after I had to make a new pet. I call this series "omg the mage out-dps'd the enchanter pet!

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Look man they just go on and on and all mostly look like this except the fights where I had to step away to take a pee or do something for my kid. I never got close to running out of mana the whole time we were down there. I told you it looks goofy and gets all skewed when you just do a mass fight compile.

Mages are excellent group dps.

Shamans ... are not. You don't invite shamans to the group for dps. You invite them for all the lovely things they do so absolutely well. Strong class, but not strong dps in a fast moving group setting. None of these mobs would have lived long enough for you to get any meaningful damage from your dots ... so you'd be left with JBB clicks and otherwise 'meh' nukes and a weakling pet.

#micdrop

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for the single logs!

Your average pet DPS is (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = 55 DPS.

For your self DPS, that varies based on how much you nuke. You still haven't provided that data, but now I know what spell you use based on the damage you gave, so I can calculate the average for you.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. A Mage with C2 and max meditate is regenerating 32 mana per tick. 32 x 10 x 60 = 19,200. That means you could nuke 70 times per hour (19200 / 275 = 70). Since you are casting other things including your pet, that is really closer to basically 1 nuke per minute.

So your average nuke DPS is 825 / 60 seconds = 13.5 DPS.

So your average DPS is 55 + 13.5 = 68.5 DPS. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in terms of RNG and put it back up to 80 DPS for you:) Your parser was actually pretty spot on for yourself at least.

EDIT: The pet numbers are a bit lower, put in his Mage's DPS for a few of them on accident.

[Troxx]

/facepalm

On a fight with a mob with unlimited/infinite hp where there is never a chance for down time and the fight never ever ends and once you’ve run out of mana and assuming you never fizzle or get a resist, and if you ignore it’s a conjuration spell and I’m conjuration spec … but wait! Your cute little exercise in arithmetic forgets that time spent standing and casting are med ticks possibly missed .. so surely my mages personal dps is actually lower than what you calculated despite all the logs you so desperately wanted me to provide.

What part of I never ran out of mana do you not comprehend?

Your ability to do mental gymnastics never ceases to amaze me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

/facepalm

Yup. The data you gave doesn't change your DPS from the first screenshot. It lowers it actually hehe. Thanks for the data, now we can finally put this debate to rest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

/facepalm

On a fight with a mob with unlimited/infinite hp where there is never a chance for down time and the fight never ever ends and once you’ve run out of mana and assuming you never fizzle or get a resist, and if you ignore it’s a conjuration spell and I’m conjuration spec … but wait! Your cute little exercise in arithmetic forgets that time spent standing and casting are med ticks possibly missed .. so surely my mages personal dps is actually lower than what you calculated despite all the logs you so desperately wanted me to provide.

What part of I never ran out of mana do you not comprehend?

Your ability to do mental gymnastics never ceases to amaze me.

How do you not understand basic math? Every character has a maximum amount of mana they get per hour, unless you are getting twitched or something. There is no magical amount of mana you have. If you are regenerating at 32 mana per tick, the best you can do is 70 nukes per hour lol.

You are confusing the idea that you can nuke more in some fights. But if you play for an hour the DPS still averages out because you have a fixed amount of maximum mana you can receive.

[Troxx]

Yes because all groups spend all 60 seconds of all 60 minutes of every hour constantly fighting without breaks, pauses, crawling, waiting on a pull…

Obtuse man …

Do we even play the same game? I provided you real time, real world, actual fights that happened. I never ran out of mana. This is how the fights went. It’s the actual game not some BS theory crafting of a pseudo intellectual who knows how to use a calculator.