Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes because all groups spend all 60 seconds of all 60 minutes of every hour constantly fighting without breaks, pauses, crawling, waiting on a pull…

Obtuse man …

Dude, you aren't getting it. You can only nuke 70 times per hour. It doesn't matter how you break that up. You could nuke 10 times in 1 minute, and you would still only have 60 nukes left for the next 59 minutes lol. You aren't gaining nukes somehow.

The math doesn't change. You are getting 320 mana per minute at 32 mana per tick. Unless you are getting twitched, that doesn't change.

As you said earlier, the only thing you can do is lose nukes due to not meditating:)

[Ripqozko]

Yes because all groups spend all 60 seconds of all 60 minutes of every hour constantly fighting without breaks, pauses, crawling, waiting on a pull…

Obtuse man …

Do we even play the same game? I provided you real time, real world, actual fights that happened. I never ran out of mana. This is how the fights went. It’s the actual game not some BS theory crafting of a pseudo intellectual who knows how to use a calculator.

He's gonna keep going and going that's his shtick, never wrong and he will keep posting over and over. Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He's gonna keep going and going that's his shtick, never wrong and he will keep posting over and over. Hope that helps.

It's not a schtick. Its actual math. Does nobody on these forums know how to do basic math?

[Troxx]

Yes because all groups spend all 60 seconds of all 60 minutes of every hour constantly fighting without breaks, pauses, crawling, waiting on a pull

Are you autistic?

The only thing wrong about your “math” is you failed to factor in conjuration specialization. The problem isn’t your math it’s your absolute ability to divorce your concept of math from the reality of actual game play, actual group dynamics … and how the “math” works out in a real world setting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just going to repost this calculation, because anybody who knows basic math will understand. If you think your average DPS is 175 because you spammed Nukes in a single fight, then you are basically trying to argue Wizards are the best DPS class in the game lol.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times per hour, assuming that is all you cast and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 75 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet while nuking. Troxx's original parse of around 80 DPS was accurate.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

[Troxx]

I never ever claimed 175 dps. The peak dps was 175. The lowest combined was around 72. Most floated in the middling range 90-110 dps … you know … the average.

You are using a solo battle fight where your dots get to fully roll along for max damage. We are talking group dps and most of these fights lasted well under 30 seconds. You would have enough time to cast both spells and get maybe 2 ticks out of one and 1 out of the other.

Or did you forget what this thread was actually about?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never ever claimed 175 dps. The peak dps was 175. The lowest combined was around 72. Most floated in the middling range 90-110 dps … you know … the average.

No, the average is 80 DPS, as the math shows above lol. You can't escape it. Unless you were getting twitched, you don't spontaneously generate additional mana outside of what you can regenerate. In reality your DPS is lower, since you won't actually be able to do 78 nukes per hour, but I will strong man Mages just for the sake of argument.

[Karanis]

/facepalm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Looks like karanis can't math either hehe. If you still think Mages are doing higher DPS after the actual numbers are proven, I don't know what to tell you.

I will even do the same calculation on my DoTs, so you don't think I am using some kind of trick.

A Shaman can regenerate around 16 mana per second. 3600 seconds x 16 mana = 57600. Bane + Envenomed bolt cost 745 combined, so 57600 / 745 = 77. So I can cast this combination around 70 times per hour realistically. The DoTs do NOT have to finish, because they always deal the same damage. (214 + 146) / 6 = 60 DPS flat. My pet does around 13 DPS on average, so you are looking at 73 DPS on average for a Shaman, unless you are killing more than 70 mobs per hour. In higher level zones usually you have lower kills per hour due to camp availabilities and 30 minute respawns. I am not even including clicking Epic.

Realistically speaking a Shaman could indeed keep up with a Mage's DPS if the group wanted it. But in reality having 2x Enchanters is DPS enough. The Mage isn't necessary at all. Better to have a Shaman's additional utility, and ask the Shaman to increase the DPS when needed.

[cd288]

It was probably the correct answer in classic too. People just didn't know any better and/or weren't as good at the game. Competent enchanters can manage charm pets with almost zero or zero issues for extended periods of time these days. But yeah generally I agree with you. Funny how a shaman main can acknowledge that shaman isn't necessarily the best at everything in every situation. Odd concept lol

Not worth discussing that with Loramin lol. His whole basis is “I don’t remember people using enchanters a certain way which means there are non classic mechanics going on because my memory is the most important evidence” (besides channeling)

[Balimon]

One thing to consider is damage shield, which isn't on those parses. The enchanter pets are going to have it, and it's significant. Math that up for us! Also for posterity; got some parses of the epic pet.

They are all taken from Stanos in High pass, muzzle and burnout going obviously.

2658 damage over 76 seconds @ 35 dps
3231 damage over 68 seconds @ 47.5 dps
5063 damage over 102 seconds @ 49.6 dps
3495 damage over 83 seconds @ 42 dps
4838 damage over 109 seconds @ 44.3 dps
4340 damage over 83 seconds @ 52.3 dps
4125 damage over 70 seconds @ 58.9 dps
2901 damage over 61 seconds @ 47.5 dps
Average DPS = 47.13

[PatChapp]

For sure the damage shield is significant,should only count it 19dmg over the enchanter damage shield however. Most enchanters will have the clickie earring
Whether or not they use it,that's questionable.

I try to keep it up,but I'm used to it from playing the mage

[Toxigen]

you can put up all the parses you want

its still 3x enc + 1 cleric

[Troxx]

you can put up all the parses you want

its still 3x enc + 1 cleric

Agreed.

And if you can’t find a 3rd ench it sure as shite isn’t a shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Agreed.

And if you can’t find a 3rd ench it sure as shite isn’t a shaman.

Stop being a sore loser.

Honestly it depends on the camp, which is why 3x Enchanters isn't always best.

Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Cleric would be better at Fungi King.

Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric would be better at Juggs due to CoTH.

Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric would be better at Ixiblat Fer since you need Malo to get him slowed.

Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric would be better in Chardok, and could swap an Enchanter for a Necro since there are plenty of undead. Mage if you were doing Royals for CoTH.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

[PlsNoBan]

Are you autistic?

breathtaking autism

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, PlsNoBan, your autism is preventing you from understanding basic math. I am sorry you have to live with the condition.

[Crede]

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

Shock of steel will be about 10-11% cheaper in mana btw due to the Mage conjure spec. Your data capturing is fairly accurate, it's the arguments behind them that are the waste of time and their actual applicability to how the game plays out in real time. I've told you this many times, you just don't know how to approach any sort of debatable topic, which is why you waste so much time trying to get some point across that doesn't matter.

Your scenarios require a shaman to basically be going bonkers 24/7 to maintain the mana to keep up with what a mage can do pretty lazily. Add in a focused water pet, or an epic pet, and it becomes even harder to keep up. Like why would you even want to try to do that? Most people will probably just get tired after 15 minutes and start clicking their jbb. People tend to be lazy in this game, especially in group settings. I've grouped with rogues who don't always even backstab. I don't think anybody in their right mind would invite a shaman over a mage in a dps role specifically for that reason alone.

I maintain my original stance that this 4 man combo should be Cleric, Enc, Mage, and Necro which is not only a more realistic composition but basically covers every scenario unless there's some insanely long list of mobs that I'm not aware of that needs 3 encs to kill. I don't think I've ever seen 3 enchanters group up in my life.

Edit: We all know shaman's are overall a very powerful class, it was really dumb to even give them Torpor, that should have gone to druids.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shock of steel will be about 10-11% cheaper in mana btw due to the Mage conjure spec. Your data capturing is fairly accurate, it's the arguments behind them that are the waste of time and their actual applicability to how the game plays out in real time. I've told you this many times, you just don't know how to approach any sort of debatable topic, which is why you waste so much time trying to get some point across that doesn't matter.

Your scenarios require a shaman to basically be going bonkers 24/7 to maintain the mana to keep up with what a mage can do pretty lazily. Add in a focused water pet, or an epic pet, and it becomes even harder to keep up. Like why would you even want to try to do that? Most people will probably just get tired after 15 minutes and start clicking their jbb. People tend to be lazy in this game, especially in group settings. I've grouped with rogues who don't always even backstab. I don't think anybody in their right mind would invite a shaman over a mage in a dps role specifically for that reason alone.

I maintain my original stance that this 4 man combo should be Cleric, Enc, Mage, and Necro which is not only a more realistic composition but basically covers every scenario unless there's some insanely long list of mobs that I'm not aware of that needs 3 encs to kill. I don't think I've ever seen 3 enchanters group up in my life.

Specialization would give you maybe 2 DPS since you could do 10% more nukes.

No, the Shaman wouldn't really need to go bonkers. They can keep up the 70 DPS for 70 mobs hehe. In a higher level area you aren't killing 70 mobs per hour due to camp restrictions and 30 minute timers. This means realistically you would have more downtime, no need to constantly cast.

Cleric/Ench/Shaman/Neco would be better. You could do more camps such as Fungi King and again DPS isn't going to be hurt much by using the Shaman instead. I have clearly shown Mage DPS isn't significantly better, and Shamans bring more utility to the table.

Remember this thread is a semi unrealistic scenario to begin with. If you want DPS you would always bring a Rogue over a Mage. The last rogue I parsed in Sebilis was doing 133 DPS, which is much better than a Mage playing their best.

[Crede]

Specialization would give you maybe 2 DPS since you could do 10% more nukes.

No, the Shaman wouldn't really need to go bonkers. They can keep up the 70 DPS for 70 mobs hehe. In a higher level area you aren't killing 70 mobs per hour due to camp restrictions and 30 minute timers. This means realistically you would have more downtime, no need to constantly cast.

Cleric/Ench/Shaman/Neco would be better. You could do more camps such as Fungi King and again DPS isn't going to be hurt much by using the Shaman instead. I have clearly shown Mage DPS isn't significantly better, and Shamans bring more utility to the table.

Remember this thread is a semi unrealistic scenario to begin with. If you want DPS you would always bring a Rogue over a Mage. The last rogue I parsed in Sebilis was doing 133 DPS, which is much better than a Mage playing their best.

How does swapping in a Shaman open up fungi king over a mage? Getting 5% more slow & 10 better malo?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How does swapping in a Shaman open up fungi king over a mage? Getting 5% more slow & 10 better malo?

For a camp like Fungi King you need that, yes. It's a popular camp, so wiping means other players will probably take it. Safety is much preferred over a slightly better kill speed. You are also getting extra heals and buffs with a Shaman, so that means you are less likely to die. Having 2 healers means you can heal 2 people simultaneously instead of 1.

[Crede]

For a camp like Fungi King you need that, yes. It's a popular camp, so wiping means other players will probably take it. Safety is much preferred over a slightly better kill speed.

You have 3 pets for safety, an enchanter, and a cleric who will basically have infinite mana due to C2/Twitch/Mod rods hehe. There's no additional safety needed, shaman's utility is basically useless here as others have noted, I'll take the coth/mod rods over Torpor that will probably never be casted & and a marginally better slow/malo that will likely go unnoticed. The necro can also provide spot heals when needed, they are quite good, I've killed juggs with just my necro healing.

[PlsNoBan]

If a grp with 2 encs and a cleric is in danger at fungi king regardless of what the 4th class is you're probably just bad at everquest. All arguments about whats better for "safety" are null and void unless you're just playing with bads in which case all bets are off anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have 3 pets for safety, an enchanter, and a cleric who will basically have infinite mana due to C2/Twitch/Mod rods hehe. There's no additional safety needed, shaman's utility is basically useless here as others have noted, I'll take the coth/mod rods over Torpor that will probably never be casted & and a marginally better slow/malo that will likely go unnoticed. The necro can also provide spot heals when needed, they are quite good, I've killed juggs with just my necro healing.

Nah. Typical Fungi King group is Shaman/Enchanter/Monk (or SK) with a pocket cleric parked in the area for resing. You could also have a pocket Mage for CoTHing:) That minimizes the number of people who are rolling on a Tunic.

Mage is 100% unnecessary at Fungi King camp. The slight DPS increase they bring adds very little compared to the safety you get from a Shaman. The point of camping Fungi King is to get Tunics, not die and lose the camp.

[PlsNoBan]

Lol safety

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol safety

Yes. In reality, mistakes happen hehe. We aren't assuming people play perfectly. In a place like Fungi King things can go wrong very quickly. Sorry you haven't played down there apparently.

[Crede]

Nah. Typical Fungi King group is Shaman/Enchanter/Monk with a pocket cleric parked in the area for resing. That minimizes the number of people who are rolling on a Tunic.

Mage is 100% unnecessary at Fungi King camp. The slight DPS increase they bring adds very little compared to the safety you get from a Shaman.

We're not talking about Typical Fungi groups/trios trying to maximize fungi potential hehe, we are talking about a 4 man caster only composition where a shaman is also 100% unnecessary at Fungi king camp.

So yea, it's a mage with better dps/coth/mod rods over a better slow/malo/torpor in a setting where you already have a mage to mala & an infinite mana cleric and a necro for patch heals if needed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We're not talking about Typical Fungi groups/trios trying to maximize fungi potential hehe, we are talking about a 4 man caster only composition where a shaman is also 100% unnecessary at Fungi king camp.

So yea, it's a mage with better dps/coth/mod rods over a better slow/malo/torpor in a setting where you already have an infinite mana cleric and a necro for patch heals if needed.

Shaman is still better in reality. The added utility is much better than the slight DPS increase. You don't need mod rods when the Shaman is saving you a bunch of mana by casting spells you don't have to, like heals and slows. Remember in your group comp the Enchanter is required to cast slows, and Fungi King has pretty good resists. Mod rod isn't going to make up for the Enchanter needing to cast slow 6 times hehe. The Shaman can do that for them.

You would need 9 mod rods to make up for the slows, which are also hurting the Enchanter, so the cleric would need to heal the Ench. This also assumes your group would be dropping and picking up 9 mod rods every 6 minutes in between pulls of the PH/King.

The other nice thing is because Fungi King can be hard to slow, both the Enchanter and the Shaman can be casting it if you are in trouble and need to get it to land ASAP.

[Crede]

Shaman is still better in reality. The added utility is much better than the slight DPS increase. You don't need mod rods when the Shaman is saving you a bunch of mana by casting spells you don't have to, like heals and slows. Remember in your group comp the Enchanter is required to cast slows, and Fungi King has pretty good resists. Mod rod isn't going to make up for the Enchanter needing to cast slow 6 times hehe. The Shaman can do that for them.

You would need 9 mod rods to make up for the slows, which are also hurting the Enchanter, so the cleric would need to heal the Ench. This also assumes your group would be dropping and picking up 9 mod rods every 6 minutes in between pulls of the PH/King.

The enchanter would also have twitches coming in, and be using ToT & wandering mind on the Fungi king to get more mana in addition to the mod rods hehe. The necro alone could heal the enchanter too so the cleric doesn't even have too. You could even give a charmed pet a swarmcaller. There's so much synergy here, and the more a shaman slows/heals the more dps you are losing and the more mana that just goes unused with the cleric/enchanter. So you see, shamans are just pretty useless in this 4 man comp hehe.

Fungi king really isn't that hard, it has been killed with no healers/slowers hehe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The enchanter would also have twitches coming in, and be using ToT & wandering mind on the Fungi king to get more mana in addition to the mod rods hehe. The necro alone could heal the enchanter too so the cleric doesn't even have too. There's so much synergy here, and the more a shaman slows/heals the more dps you are losing and the more mana that just goes unused with the cleric/enchanter. So you see, shamans are just pretty useless in this 4 man comp hehe.

I am starting to suspect you haven't been to Fungi King before hehe.

Having the Shaman slowing is preferred because then the Enchanter can do other things, such as deal with charm breaks.

If you are in trouble and need to slow the king faster, you have 2 people slowing, and the Enchanter is getting twitched.

Mage offers nothing other than DPS and Mala. Mod rods are irrelevant when the Shaman is saving you the same mana. Shamans can Malo, Slow, heal, buff, and DPS all at the same time. You are grasping at straws here.

Having two healers means the Shaman can Torpor the necro while they are twitching, and the Cleric can heal the pet or a person getting attacked. The necro can focus on things other than healing.

Fungi King camp is about consistency, not kill speed.

[Crede]

I am starting to suspect you haven't been to Fungi King before hehe.

Having the Shaman slowing is preferred because then the Enchanter can do other things, such as deal with charm breaks.

If you are in trouble and need to slow the king faster, you have 2 people slowing, and the Enchanter is getting twitched.

Mage offers nothing other than DPS and Mala. Mod rods are irrelevant when the Shaman is saving you the same mana. Shamans can Malo, Slow, heal, buff, and DPS all at the same time. You are grasping at straws here.

Having two healers means the Shaman can Torpor the necro while they are twitching, and the Cleric can heal the pet or a person getting attacked.

No I'm just seeing your inexperience with enchanter, since you admittedly only have a lvl 28 one. Managing breaks are really easy if you have 2 other pets that will still be on fungi king. You can get a recharm off in < 10 seconds. The mage/necro pets will have no problems tanking for a little while with a cleric/necro on heals.

Fungi king can be killed with no healers/slows. 2 monks can do it. It's not that hard hehe. Shaman is just dead weight, sorry. Coth/mod rods/superior dps prevails. A mage can also dump nukes if needed. This is more helpful for focusing down big nameds than what a shaman can pump out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No I'm just seeing your inexperience with enchanter, since you admittedly only have a lvl 28 one. Managing breaks are really easy if you have 2 other pets that will still be on fungi king. You can get a recharm off in < 10 seconds. The mage/necro pets will have no problems tanking for a little while with a cleric/necro on heals.

Fungi king can be killed with no healers/melee. 2 monks can do it. It's not that hard hehe. Shaman is just dead weight, sorry. Coth/mod rods/superior dps prevails.

Again, you don't understand Fungi King. The point isn't about how fast you can kill him. The point is how long you can stay at the camp without having another group take it.

I have played with plenty of Enchanters at Fungi King lol. I know how it works. Like all casters, you can only cast 1 spell at a time.

Having the Shaman slow frees up the Enchanter to do other things. I have had Fungi King resist slow easily 4 times in a row.

There is a reason why Shaman/Enchanter/Monk (or SK) is the norm:)

[Crede]

Again, you don't understand Fungi King. The point isn't about how fast you can kill him. The point is how long you can stay at the camp without having another group take it.

I have played with plenty of Enchanters at Fungi King lol. I know how it works. Like all casters, you can only cast 1 spell at a time.

Having the Shaman slow frees up the Enchanter to do other things. I have had Fungi King resist slow easily 4 times in a row.

Having a 6k hp pet & a cleric to CH is plenty. Slow isn't even needed honestly. It will eventually get slowed, and you have 2 other beefy pets for backup if needed.

You're picking straws at 1 camp. A shaman is not needed to kill this. Mage just brings more uniqueness to this composition.

Sorry, your shaman just is dead weight here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Having a 6k hp pet & a cleric to CH is plenty. Slow isn't even needed honestly. It will eventually get slowed, and you have 2 other beefy pets for backup if needed.

You're picking straws at 1 camp. A shaman is not needed to kill this. Mage just brings more uniqueness to this composition.

Sorry, your shaman just is dead weight here.

The normal trio being Shaman/Enchanter/Monk (or SK) says otherwise. I don't see Mage here:)

[Crede]

The normal trio being Shaman/Enchanter/Monk (or SK) says otherwise. I don't see Mage here:)

Hehe you're changing the group composition again to favor shamans. We aren't talking about trios :D.

This is a 4 man caster composition, so we get to pick more optimal classes :D If we were talking about just best trios, then yea I'd probably go with sk/shaman/enc if superior monk dps wasn't needed. or monk/enc/cleric if more dps/ch is needed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hehe you're changing the group composition again to favor shamans. We aren't talking about trios :D.

This is a 4 man caster composition, so we get to pick more optimal classes :D

You are missing the point entirely. If Shaman was dead weight, why wouldn't the comp be Cleric/Enchanter/Monk (or SK)?

The Shaman's ability to Slow, Heal, DPS, Buff, and Malo gives them a huge leg up over a Cleric, which is why you end up just parking an alt for reses.

In the four man composition you already have plenty of DPS with the Necro and Enchanter, so the Mage's DPS is the only thing that is redundant, and again the Shaman can output the same DPS if necessary. The Mage offers nothing. You already admitted you agree with the DPS data hehe.

[Crede]

You are missing the point entirely. If Shaman was dead weight, why wouldn't the comp be Cleric/Enchanter/Monk (or SK)?

The Shaman's ability to Slow, Heal, DPS, Buff, and Malo gives them a huge leg up over a Cleric, which is why you end up just parking an alt for reses.

In the four man composition you already have plenty of DPS with the Necro and Enchanter, so the Mage's DPS is the only thing that is redundant, and again the Shaman can output the same DPS if necessary. The Mage offers nothing. You already admitted you agree with the DPS data hehe.

Again, why are you still talking about trios and now even adding in melee? Lol, this has nothing to do with this thread. You're not making any points, other than why a shaman excels better with low numbers, which we already know.

You don't understand group composition dynamics, and how much changes adding a 4th man in. With enc/cleric/mage/necro, you have superior healing, dps, and utility, while only losing out on torpor and a marginally better slow/mala. You don't need to prioritize 2 slows when you have 3 tanks and a 6k-8k hp pet being chealed hehe. Fungi king has been killed with 1 to 0 slowers many, many times hehe.

So sorry, the shaman really just offers nothing, except the excuse for the enc/cleric/necro to just slack off and enjoy their full mana pool. Which is why shamans do so well in low man settings, but not in this composition.

[PlsNoBan]

It's honestly painful to read with how dense this guy is

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again, why are you still talking about trios and now even adding in melee? Lol, this has nothing to do with this thread. You're not making any points, other than why a shaman excels better with low numbers, which we already know.

You don't understand group composition dynamics, and how much changes adding a 4th man in. With enc/cleric/mage/necro, you have superior healing, dps, and utility, while only losing out on torpor and a marginally better slow/mala. You don't need to prioritize 2 slows when you have 3 tanks and a 6k-8k hp pet being chealed hehe. Fungi king has been killed with 1 to 0 slowers many, many times hehe.

So sorry, the shaman really just offers nothing, except the excuse for the enc/cleric/necro to just slack off and enjoy their full mana pool. Which is why shamans do so well in low man settings, but not in this composition.

It's really simple. It is a fact a Shaman can output the same DPS as a Mage. Unless you need CoTH, there really is no reason not to bring a Shaman instead to benefit from the utility. Any slowed mob can be face tanked by the Shaman too if you really care about another tank:) Torpor is a powerful tanking tool, plus a Shaman can generate agro really well with spamming slow.

It's honestly painful to read with how dense this guy is

It's honestly painful to see how poorly you take losing an argument. Insults are not how you prove your points.

[Danth]

Lol, this has nothing to do with this thread.

Original poster already said his group decided on shaman/necromancer x2/enchanter so the thread's completed its purpose. Nothing left to do but shoot the breeze.

With respect to single target damage dealt, the magician wants the constant-activity group Shamwowi is using in his hypothetical comparison. Groups that stop for downtime lose a lot of value from the damage shield, the pet won't be quite as strong proportionally, and periodic burst will tend to favor the shaman in this group because the shaman's a near-tank who doesn't care if he rips aggro while the magician's a squishy who doesn't want to rip aggro off the pets so the mage has to hold back more. The magician can readily out-burst the shaman when he has perfect front-loaded aggro generation from something like a shadowknight but they don't have that here.

I recollect Shamwowi said he considers the magician better for experience grinds where constant-activity chain pulls have the most relevance. I don't know the gulf here is as wide as the arguing outwardly suggests.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Original poster already said his group decided on shaman/necromancer x2/enchanter so the thread's completed its purpose. Nothing left to do but shoot the breeze.

With respect to single target damage dealt, the magician wants the constant-activity group Shamwowi is using in his hypothetical comparison. Groups that stop for downtime lose a lot of value from the damage shield, the pet won't be quite as strong proportionally, and periodic burst will tend to favor the shaman in this group because the shaman's a near-tank who doesn't care if he rips aggro while the magician's a squishy who doesn't want to rip aggro off the pets so the mage has to hold back more. The magician can readily out-burst the shaman when he has perfect front-loaded aggro generation from something like a shadowknight but they don't have that here.

I do recollect Shamwowi said he considers the magician better for experience grinds where constant-activity chain pulls have the most relevance. I don't know the gulf here is as wide as the arguing outwardly suggests.

Well said.

And yes, a Mage can out DPS a Shaman for very short periods of time by just spamming their nuke spell, but that is tough to do with agro, as Danth points out, and will drain your mana, as I have pointed out.

Mages are better before level 60, because Torpor is what propels a Shaman far ahead of a Mage. I have said this repeatedly. But since OP never mentioned the level range for his scenario, I am assuming a group composition that wants to play at all level ranges, including 60. If it is a static group you would have to decide on whether you want a Mage for easier leveling 1-59, or a Shaman for level 60 camps. That will depend on what you want to do with the group. For me I would prefer a group that could do level 60 camps, so you can experience more of the game and get really good items. With a 4 man static the leveling experience will be great no matter what. It will fly by. I think it would be a waste to use the Mage to level the group a bit faster, at the cost of them basically being dead weight for the most part at 60.

[Danth]

Magician would fare best for a player who's either innately limited (say, a little kid or a non-gamer), or a player who has no intention of putting all that much work into his character. Magician would work fine if it's topping out at level 55-57 or some such and wearing rags, heck gearless if it wants, while the shaman's going to be a downer if played by the same individual, not useless, but always haunted by the knowledge of how far it is from its potential. Shamans require a lot of investment to get the most out of them, both time and platinum, it's probably the class's largest drawback.

The shaman's single target damage dealt is lower than the magician's on average, but not by so much as most folks typically expect. Part of the reason for the larger gulf, in usual practice, is because damage isn't everything and the shaman can usually find other better things to do to make the group more comfortable and the game session more pleasant while the magician has no choice but to deal damage since it's all he can do. Power gamers tend to ignore things like convenience or mental fatigue but such factors, with real people involved, are quite often the difference between having say a 2 hour session versus going three or four hours.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Magician would fare best for a player who's either innately limited (say, a little kid or a non-gamer), or a player who has no intention of putting all that much work into his character. Magician would work fine if it's topping out at level 55-57 or some such and wearing rags, heck gearless if it wants, while the shaman's going to be a downer if played by the same individual, not useless, but always haunted by the knowledge of how far it is from its potential. Shamans do require a lot of investment to get the most out of them, both time and platinum, it's probably the class's largest drawback.

100% agree. Other circumstances change the equation, such as the player's ability or time. You aren't going to be asking an 8 year old to play an Enchanter hehe.

A Shaman has a huge investment for sure. With a 4 man static you could farm plat pretty well to get your Shaman Torpor, and then your static would be in a great spot.


The shaman's single target damage dealt is lower than the magician's on average, but not by so much as most folks typically expect. Part of the reason for the larger gulf, in usual practice, is because damage isn't everything and the shaman can usually find other better things to do to make the group more comfortable and the game session more pleasant while the magician has no choice but to deal damage since it's all he can do. Power gamers tend to ignore things like convenience or mental fatigue but such factors, with real people involved, are quite often the difference between having say a 2 hour session versus going three or four hours.

Agreed.

[Crede]

It's really simple. It is a fact a Shaman can output the same DPS as a Mage. Unless you need CoTH, there really is no reason not to bring a Shaman instead to benefit from the utility. Any slowed mob can be face tanked by the Shaman too if you really care about another tank:) Torpor is a powerful tanking tool, plus a Shaman can generate agro really well with spamming slow.

Lol, it's not a fact. You've proved nothing to any of us, nothing real, except 1-2 shaman fights where you're specifically trying to make a point vs actual real sustained mage dps with no focus/epic over an extended period of time. And if we can cherry pick 1-2 fights, then a mage can burst for far more dps.

Sorry, continually repeating something, doesn't make it true, real, or factual :D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol, it's not a fact. You've proved nothing to any of us, nothing real, except 1-2 shaman fights where you're specifically trying to make a point vs actual real sustained mage dps with no focus/epic over an extended period of time. And if we can cherry pick 1-2 fights, then a mage can burst for far more dps.

Sorry, continually repeating something, doesn't make it true, real, or factual :D

The math is factual. If you think a Mage's Pet DPS wasn't represented correctly with Troxx's parses, do your own and share it.

You should take your own advice. Repeating "the factual math isn't true" doesn't make it so.

I am sorry Mage DPS isn't great on P99. I didn't balance the classes hehe.

Mage Epic is pretty rare, so I wouldn't count on having a Mage with an Epic.

Nobody is debating that a Mage can out DPS a shaman via burst. But a Wizard can out DPS a mage with burst. I don't see you arguing for Wizard in this comp:) The problem is when you are bursting you either run out of mana, or get agro. Then your DPS will be lower for the next few fights. It averages out in the end.

[PatChapp]

DPS isn't an issue in a group with multiple charm pets, is the most worthless part of this argument.
You want utility. Mage pet to backup tank on breaks os somewhat useful,but a big dumb bear with torpor can do it better.
Neither is optimal, both would work.
Continue flinging poo from your cages

A hasted and torched illis frog will clock near 200dps. Two of them don't need help to kill things

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DPS isn't an issue in a group with multiple charm pets, is the most worthless part of this argument.
You want utility. Mage pet to backup tank on breaks os somewhat useful,but a big dumb bear with torpor can do it better.
Neither is optimal, both would work.
Continue flinging poo from your cages

Shaman is much more optimal than a Mage, unless you need CoTH. I agree with the rest of this.

[Crede]

The math is factual. If you think a Mage's Pet DPS wasn't represented correctly with Troxx's parses, do your own and share it.

You should take your own advice. Repeating "the factual math isn't true" doesn't make it so.

I am sorry Mage DPS isn't great on P99. I didn't balance the classes hehe.

Mage Epic is pretty rare, so I wouldn't count on having a Mage with an Epic.

Nobody is debating that a Mage can out DPS a shaman via burst. But a Wizard can out DPS a mage with burst. I don't see you arguing for Wizard in this comp:) The problem is when you are bursting you either run out of mana, or get agro. Then your DPS will be lower for the next few fights. It averages out in the end.

Troxx's math was fine. It would have been even better if he had a focused/epic pet.

Your shaman math isn't factual. It's just numbers on a screen. You haven't provided any real time numbers. 1-2 fights doesn't count. Shamans on average will not dps like a mage.

I am sorry you proved nothing and used all that time trying to post numbers. Please come back when you actually have real data, not just shamans trying to flex their dps to win a lost debate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx's math was fine. It would have been even better if he had a focused/epic pet.

Your shaman math isn't factual. It's just numbers on a screen. You haven't provided any real time numbers. 1-2 fights doesn't count. Shamans on average will not dps like a mage.

I am sorry you proved nothing and used all that time trying to post numbers. Please come back when you actually have real data, not just shamans trying to flex their dps to win a lost debate.

My Shaman data is factual "real time numbers". Troxx brought single encounters, and so did I lol. How many fights do you want? I'll post a few more logs. It doesn't change.

My data is better than Troxx's because it's an actual log lol. With Troxx's data we have to assume his parser is correct.

You can parse my data right now if you don't believe it. I am even showing what mob I fought, so you can do the same and post your own logs with a Mage. We don't know what mobs Troxx was fighting.

My base DPS is going to be 60 with Bane + Envenomed Bolt. The only thing that is going to vary is my pet DPS, but that is true of a Mage as well.

[Crede]

My Shaman data is factual "real time numbers". Troxx brought single encounters, and so did I lol. How many fights do you want? I'll post a few more logs. It doesn't change.

My data is better than Troxx's because it's an actual log lol. With Troxx's data we have to assume his parser is correct.

You can parse my data right now if you don't believe it. I am even showing what mob I fought, so you can do the same and post your own logs with a Mage. We don't know what mobs Troxx was fighting.

Please post data for sustained xp group situations, as Troxx has, as others have requested. We don't care about 1-2 fights. And bring multiple shamans into the picture, not just one trying to win this argument. A shaman will on average be lower dps than a mage, this is factual, even at 60. The gap will continue to increase as mages acquire things like focus item/epic.

Until then, sorry, you've provided nothing of value.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please post data for sustained xp group situations, as Troxx has, as others have requested. We don't care about 1-2 fights. And bring multiple shamans into the picture, not just one trying to win this argument. A shaman will on average be lower dps than a mage, this is factual, even at 60. The gap will continue to increase as mages acquire things like focus item/epic.

Until then, sorry, you've provided nothing of value.

You are just being silly because you don't want to accept it. You are also trying to win the argument:)

Mage DPS is going to be around 80 on average, as the math clearly proves.

Shaman DPS is going to be around 70 on average, as the math clearly proves.

Nobody is going to use a Mage over a Shaman for 10 DPS, with occasional increases in DPS via burst lol.

Mage Epic is very rare, so you can't count on your group having one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just going to repost the math. If you know basic math, you will understand.

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

[Crede]

You are just being silly because you don't want to accept it. You are also trying to win the argument:)

Mage DPS is going to be around 80 on average, as the math clearly proves.

Shaman DPS is going to be around 70 on average, as the math clearly proves.

Nobody is going to use a Mage over a Shaman for 10 DPS, with occasional increases in DPS via burst lol.

Mage Epic is very rare, so you can't count on your group having one.

Shaman DPS is not 70 on average. That's your attempt to flex to win this argument, lol. In reality, they will get lazy, stop spamming dots/canni/torpor just to try to keep up, and end up spamming their jbb because they are not trying to win an argument in a thread. I've seen this time and time again. That's the beauty of mages, they don't really have to try that hard to do it. People tend to be lazy, like rogues not even bothering clicking backstab.

Your math is not real, lol. Just inflated to win an argument. Sorry, you've provided numbers that nobody takes seriously.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman DPS is not 70 on average. That's your attempt to flex to win this argument, lol. In reality, they will get lazy, stop spamming dots/canni/torpor just to try to keep up, and end up spamming their jbb because they are not trying to win an argument in a thread. I've seen this time and time again. That's the beauty of mages, they don't really have to try that hard to do it. People tend to be lazy, like rogues not even bothering clicking backstab.

Your math is not real, lol. Just inflated to win an argument. Sorry, you've provided numbers that nobody takes seriously.

The math is factual, a Shaman can easily output 70 DPS over 70 mobs. You can't escape it, and can do the math yourself! A Shaman would just need to click 3 buttons (pet attack, Bane, Envenomed Bolt).

You really can't use the "lazy" player argument. If that was the case then Mage DPS is also lower lol. They would forget to use their pet at times when they got lazy because the two Enchanter pets are already destroying the mob. They also wouldn't nuke.

Saying the math isn't real means nothing, because it's factually real. You are just making stuff up because you can't admit defeat.

[Crede]

The math is factual, a Shaman can easily output 70 DPS over 70 mobs. You can't escape it, and can do the math yourself! A Shaman would just need to click 3 buttons (pet attack, Bane, Envenomed Bolt).

You really can't use the "lazy" player argument. If that was the case then Mage DPS is also lower lol. They would forget to use their pet at times when they got lazy because the two Enchanter pets are already destroying the mob. They also wouldn't nuke.

No they wouldn't. They'd need to be clicking Pet Attack, Bane, Envenomed Bolt, and Canni/Torpor constantly to maintain that heavy mana cost. You're just honing in on 1-2 fights, nobody cares about that.

Lazy is perfectly valid, that's what makes mage's so special. They can send in a pet, drop 1 nuke, and sit, and be out dpsing the whole group basically. The shaman would have to sit there like a madman, foot on the gas 24/7, to maintain the insane mana cost of trying to dps with dots.

People in this thread have already said "show me an hour video of this". The only shamans that would actually keep this up, would be people like you trying to win an argument. A shaman is not holding 70 dps in a sustained xp group. They are clicking their jbb, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No they wouldn't. They'd need to be clicking Pet Attack, Bane, Envenomed Bolt, and Canni/Torpor constantly to maintain that heavy mana cost. You're just honing in on 1-2 fights, nobody cares about that.

Lazy is perfectly valid, that's what makes mage's so special. They can send in a pet, drop 1 nuke, and sit, and be out dpsing the whole group basically. The shaman would have to sit there like a madman, foot on the gas 24/7, to maintain the insane mana cost of trying to dps with dots.

People in this thread have already said "show me an hour video of this". The only shamans that would actually keep this up, would be people like you trying to win an argument. A shaman is not holding 70 dps in a sustained xp group. They are clicking their jbb, lol.

A Shaman is always Canni/Torporing. If they aren't they are a bad Shaman. Your whole argument is "bad players DPS lower". That is true of a mage too.

It's a dumb argument to say "DPS matters, therefore bring a mage" while at the same time saying "I am fine with bringing a lazy player who is going to be DPSing extremely poorly because they can't be bothered to play right". If you are fine with bringing that lazy player, then DPS doesn't matter to you lol.

[Danth]

DPS isn't an issue in a group with multiple charm pets, is the most worthless part of this argument.

No kidding. Group might be doing 415 DPS with a shaman or 435 with a magician and they can't tell the difference. It's not shaman vs magician, it's group vs group and the magician isn't offering enough of a boost to justify giving up 500+ HP per player let alone everything else the shaman offers. The magician only wins when it offers something specific that the group needs other than damage, be it call of the hero, an easy class for a limited player, whatever.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No kidding. Group might be doing 415 DPS with a shaman or 435 with a magician and they can't tell the difference. It's not shaman vs magician, it's group vs group and the magician isn't offering enough of a boost to justify giving up 500+ HP per player let alone everything else the shaman offers. The magician only wins when it offers something specific that the group needs other than damage, be it call of the hero, an easy class for a limited player, whatever.

Exactly.

[Zuranthium]

Your DoTs are not going to tick full duration the majority of the time. WTF do you not understand.

Manarobe and DPS clickies also exist for Mage. Your numbers are not accurate at all.

[Danth]

They are clicking their jbb, lol.

My wife wouldn't. She doesn't have one and refuses to get one every time I offer to pick one up for her. Shaman players are funny like that, they have a tendency to be slightly manic....probably why so many of them make monk alts, another kind of manic-appealing class. Most the time the shaman's doing kind of poor damage because he's busy with something else, but ask him to fill a damage role and nothing else and the class gives a decent accounting of itself, not quite equalling a magician against single-pulls, but it'll give it a run for its money.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your DoTs are not going to tick full duration the majority of the time. WTF do you not understand.

Manarobe and DPS clickies also exist for Mage. Your numbers are not accurate at all.

What you don't understand is you don't need the DoTs to tick for the full duration. Each tick is 214 damage + 146 damage = 360. 360 / 6 = 60 DPS.

Add in the pet and you are getting somewhere around 10-15 DPS. It would be higher in an Enchanter group since they could give it a better haste. The mob is not dying in 6 seconds, so you just need to apply the DoTs in the beginning of the fight for most of the ticks to get through. Envenomed Bolt and Bane only last for 7 or 8 ticks, so you will get most of them on a mob that dies in 40 seconds.

My DPS calculations did not include Shaman clickies either, so if you want to play that game we can:)

[Zuranthium]

What you don't understand is you don't need the DoTs to tick for the full duration. Each tick is 214 damage + 146 damage = 360. 360 / 6 = 60 DPS.

You don't have the mana to cast both of those on every single MOB. Your premise is still incorrect to begin with, as it takes a significant amount of TIME to cast both of those, they aren't just ticking right away. You are truly an idiot.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't have the mana to cast both of those on every single MOB. Your premise is still incorrect to begin with, as it takes a significant amount of TIME to cast both of those, they aren't just ticking right away. You are truly an idiot.

No, you simply cannot read, yet again lol. Let me repost this.

A Shaman can regenerate around 16 mana per second. 3600 seconds x 16 mana = 57600. Bane + Envenomed bolt cost 745 combined, so 57600 / 745 = 77. So I can cast this combination around 70 times per hour realistically. The DoTs do NOT have to finish, because they always deal the same damage. (214 + 146) / 6 = 60 DPS flat. My pet does around 13 DPS on average, so you are looking at 73 DPS on average for a Shaman, unless you are killing more than 70 mobs per hour. In higher level zones usually you have lower kills per hour due to camp availabilities and 30 minute respawns. I am not even including clicking Epic.

It only takes about 40 seconds to recover the entire mana cost of Bane + Envenomed Bolt. I am not even including the mana reduction from specialization, so it may be a bit faster.

Also the DoTs do have a initial hit as well, which I didn't include:) If you are looking at the initial hit, that is 110 + 150 = 260/6 = 43 DPS roughly, so yes you are getting something even if the mob dies in 6 seconds.

[Troxx]

Please post data for sustained xp group situations, as Troxx has, as others have requested. We don't care about 1-2 fights. And bring multiple shamans into the picture, not just one trying to win this argument. A shaman will on average be lower dps than a mage, this is factual, even at 60. The gap will continue to increase as mages acquire things like focus item/epic.

Until then, sorry, you've provided nothing of value.

Quoted for emphasis.

[PatChapp]

If we're still arguing about fungi king camp, you really don't kill that many mobs. I think the minimum is keeping 8? Spawns cleared. Been a while since I've been down there,feel free to tell me you need to kill 5mobs a minute minimum

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Quoted for emphasis.

I know you are desperate, but this won't change the math.

[Danth]

so yes you are getting something even if the mob dies in 6 seconds.

If the mob's dying that fast you're farming greens in sol A or blackburrow or someplace, haha. I'll grant the magician's superior for that task. The shaman does have a bit of a ramp-up time that shouldn't be wholly ignored; chain-killing greens does play against it. Now, why our hypothetical 4-man of 60's is hanging out in SolA, you tell me.......

[Troxx]

I’m not the desperate one here.

How many times have you quoted the same wall of text with your broken rationale trying to make a point that thus far zero people have agreed with?

I’ve got a 60 shaman with a full spell book/torpor. I know how much damage shamans actually can manage and in a fast paced group even going full manic-casting canni mode still can’t keep up with the very easy, very lazy … very potent dps of the mage.

Mage is easy-mode superior dps with minimal effort.

Quit smoking crack.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If the mob's dying that fast you're farming greens in sol A or blackburrow or someplace, haha. I'll grant the magician's superior for that task. The shaman does have a bit of a ramp-up time that shouldn't be wholly ignored; chain-killing greens does play against it. Now, why our hypothetical 4-man of 60's is hanging out in SolA, you tell me.......

Of course. As I said before a Mage is fine clearing easy greens somewhere. But you aren't going to be doing that in a 4 man static at 60:) I have said many times before Mage's are better before 60, because Torpor is the key here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m not the desperate one here.

How many times have you quoted the same wall of text with your broken rationale trying to make a point that thus far zero people have agreed with?

I’ve got a 60 shaman with a full spell book/torpor. I know how much damage shamans actually can managed.

Quit smoking crack.

Just because you disagree, it doesn't mean it's wrong lol. Truth does not require your agreement to be true.

I am not desperate at all. The math definitively proves my point. People are simply in denial.

[Ripqozko]

Sorry to UCF, DSM is worse.

[Troxx]

It’s telling when one person insists that everyone else is wrong and in denial.

It ain’t just a river in Egypt muchacho.

I do find it funny that you took the effort to parse my average pet dps and then neglected at acknowledge how much dps my mage was ACTUALLY spell slinging … instead falling back on theoryquest of maximum sustainable damage based on spell cost and med ticks. It doesn’t work that way. Groups have to move. Mobs have to be pulled. Kill fast enough and mobs have to respawn.

I started the group full mana and never got close to zero (lowest maybe 20% mana finishing of a crypt cycle.

That’s how real life works. You begged for my parses. I gave them. You mostly ignored them and reverted to mental gymnastics to prove to the universe that you were right and ignored the hard numbers slapping you in the face.

By the way if you bothered to notice these fights were 20-35 seconds on average. That’s enough time for you to load 2 dots .. but the mob will be basically dead by then. You would be better off nuking with a kill rate that fast.

[Danth]

Realistically, most groups are used to seeing the shaman doing 1/4 of a mage's damage because the shaman's healing/slowing/buffing/etc. Ask one to operate in damage mode he's going to be more like 80% of the magician. It's more work, admittedly, but in truth the shaman's probably doing that much work anyway most the time, just using the mana for other tasks. I'm not suggesting the shaman will rival the magician, just get close enough that the magician is going to have a tough time justifying himself based on the difference. That should be a fairly less objectionable argument.

[PlsNoBan]

It's kind of impressive to be this staggeringly wrong and hold your ground for 33 pages posting 4-5 times per page

[Troxx]

It is indeed less objectionable Danth. I would disagree on how close the shaman can get to the mage. A lot of that depends on circumstances. The lower the number of people in the group and the higher the hp of the mob skews favor to shaman (dots are beautiful like that). The faster the kill rate, lower the hp of the mob and the more downtime a group has favors the magician.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's kind of impressive to be this staggeringly wrong and hold your ground for 33 pages posting 4-5 times per page

I agree. You, Troxx, Ripqozko, Crede, Z, etc. are either unable to do basic math, or are in extreme denial. It is not my fault you cannot understand or accept basic math:)

Realistically, most groups are used to seeing the shaman doing 1/4 of a mage's damage because the shaman's healing/slowing/buffing/etc. Ask one to operate in damage mode he's going to be more like 80% of the magician. It's more work, admittedly, but in truth the shaman's probably doing that much work anyway most the time, just using the mana for other tasks. I'm not suggesting the shaman will rival the magician, just get close enough that the magician is going to have a tough time justifying himself based on the difference. That should be a fairly less objectionable argument.

Agreed.

[Keebz]

Let's see those Stanos parses DSM. Go root rot 4 Stanos. How about Seb protector? You've been arguing about best 4 casters at lvl 60 (you conceded shaman wasn't good enough below 60), yet you're showing parses of you root rotting lvl 40 mobs. Pick a real target.

[Danth]

I would disagree on how close the shaman can get to the mage. A lot of that depends on circumstances.

No disagreement needed--or I'd disagree with myself, even, depending on the situation. That's why I try not to get into napkin math too much, this game has so many variables that trying to use one hard number for anything almost always falls flat.

The 4-man group is about the pefect storm for this type of argument because it's just large enough where it's not quite so small a smallman and the shaman's utility, while nice, isn't quite as dominant as it is in say a duo. Far from complaining I think it's a fun exercise...I like this hobby and don't mind the banter.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let's see those Stanos parses DSM. Go root rot 4 Stanos. How about Seb protector? You've been arguing about best 4 casters at lvl 60 (you conceded shaman wasn't good enough below 60), yet you're showing parses of you root rotting lvl 40 mobs. Pick a real target.

You missed the discussion. Please read. We were talking about Sebilis, so I am using mobs that a Mage would typically be fighting. You aren't bringing a Mage to Fungi King, you are bringing them to disco. The only difficult camp a Mage would be used for in Seb is Juggs for CoTH.

I have plenty of videos showing me fighting tougher mobs on my youtube channel if you want to parse those hehe. Remember though that my DPS will be lower because I also need to face tank the mob. In a group I don't need to do that typically, so I can focus on DPS.

[Danth]

You aren't bringing a Mage to Fungi King

I will argue this one even though we're more broadly in agreement: If the guy plays a mage, it happens to be what he has, his buddies aren't going to tell him to stuff it and stay home if they happen to want to do myconids sometime. So this time, he goes to Fungus King, ideal or not. The wife and I have had friends on unusual-for-the-zone characters tag along with us any number of times. So for this specific discussion, I think we shouldn't discount it. The group's going to make do with what they have.


Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will argue this one even though we're more broadly in agreement: If the guy plays a mage, it happens to be what he has, his buddies aren't going to tell him to stuff it and stay home if they happen to want to do myconids sometime. So this time, he goes to Fungus King, ideal or not. The wife and I have had friends on unusual-for-the-zone characters tag along with us any number of times. So for this specific discussion, I think we shouldn't discount it. The group's going to make do with what they have.


Danth

Of course, but this discussion is about ideal classes. Obviously a group of friends will do what they want with what they have. You could do Fungi King with a lot of class combinations, but that doesn't mean Mage is better than Shaman if you had to pick one.

[Keebz]

The thread is "Best 4 person all caster/priest group", not "best at disco group".

I also bring mages to Fungi King all the time, even though I can do duo it. Mages are also great for Tola/Prot. You clearly don't understand how abusable chain summoning pets is.

[Danth]

Of course, but this discussion is about ideal classes.

Sort of: It was about an ideal group, but for use overall, including taking said group to places where their characters might be individually unsuited. If you're stuck with a magician at fungus king, even if you'd prefer something else, it's an interesting discussion in its own right to see what it can do and how to make the best of it.

It's a big game. None but the most determined magician advocates aren't going to concede the shaman's going to be better when this same group heads over to West Wastes to fight some dragons.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The thread is "Best 4 person all caster/priest group", not "best at disco group".

I also bring mages to Fungi King all the time, even though I can do duo it. Mages are also great for Tola/Prot. You clearly don't understand how abusable chain summoning pets is.

Troxx didn't bring Fungi King parse data. I am using similar mobs to what he was parsing. Mob level will affect the parses, so I want to be as equal as possible.

I am not saying you can't bring Mages to Fungi King. But you don't need them there. That's the point. You could bring a Wizard to Fungi King too and they could burst some things down. But you would probably prefer a Mage over a Wizard:)

I understand chain pets just fine. Chaining pets isn't increasing your DPS, it is keeping it steady.

[Keebz]

There's a stanos parse from Balimon. Go parse a real mob.

We are either talking about leveling, in which case you've admitted shaman isn't ideal, or we are talking about big game hunting at lvl 60 and so far all your rhetoric is about killing some lvl 40 trash around disco.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's a stanos parse from Balimon. Go parse a real mob.

We are either talking about leveling, in which case you've admitted shaman isn't ideal, or we are talking about big game hunting at lvl 60 and so far all your rhetoric is about killing some lvl 40 trash around disco.

Parse the videos on my youtube channel. Those mobs are plenty tough:) But again, my DPS will be lower because I am also tanking the mob. Remember that a Shaman can kill a lot of mobs that a Mage cannot, so that should also be taken into account. Half DPS due to tanking is better than 0 DPS because you died to the mob lol.

[Raj]

Sorry to UCF, DSM is worse.

Lol :o

[Raj]

It's kind of impressive to be this staggeringly wrong and hold your ground for 33 pages posting 4-5 times per page

[Vexenu]

Burnt Wood Staff = 25 DPS clickie nuke, OR
Boots of Bladecalling = 35 DPS clickie nuke
Mage Velious Robe = clickie Shield of Lava (25 point DS)
Mage Velious Pants = clickie Burnout III (pet haste)

A Mage can pump out massive sustained DPS for hours on end using literally no mana and by pressing two buttons per mob. Throw in C2 and downtime medding and the Mage can also toss in regular nukes for even higher DPS. A focused 60 water pet positioned for backstabbing is very close if not greater than epic pet DPS and is very attainable for every Mage main.

The Mage is easily maintaining over 100 DPS while day trading, doing laundry, gardening and lifting weights. Meanwhile DSM's keyboard is catching on fire from pressing buttons so fast trying to Canni/Torpor back the 800 mana he is blowing each kill. StarCraft world champions literally salivating over this man's sustained APM and click speed. Korean teenagers making pilgrimages to his house to learn his secrets (he tells them nothing, he just whispers "I did it all for the Fungi"). Even still, despite his best efforts, he is easily smoked by the Mage's DPS in real world scenarios.But his quixotic crusade persists. He must spread the gospel of Bane and Pox. It's worth it to him to be recognized as the only DPS Shaman in the history of EverQuest (in his delusional mind at least).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only impressive thing is how Raj has almost 100 posts and not 1 of them actually contributes to the thread he is posting on. It's easy to be a troll account:)

[Raj]

The only impressive thing is how Raj has almost 100 posts and not 1 of them actually contributes to the thread he is posting on. It's easy to be a troll account:)

More posts please like this my friend! Finally we are in agreement on something. :cool:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Burnt Wood Staff = 25 DPS clickie nuke, OR
Boots of Bladecalling = 35 DPS clickie nuke
Mage Velious Robe = clickie Shield of Lava (25 point DS)
Mage Velious Pants = clickie Burnout III (pet haste)

A Mage can pump out massive sustained DPS for hours on end using literally no mana and by pressing two buttons per mob. Throw in C2 and downtime medding and the Mage can also toss in regular nukes for even higher DPS. A focused 60 water pet positioned for backstabbing is very close if not greater than epic pet DPS and is very attainable for every Mage main.

The Mage is easily maintaining over 100 DPS while day trading, doing laundry, gardening and lifting weights. Meanwhile DSM's keyboard is catching on fire from pressing buttons so fast trying to Canni/Torpor back the 800 mana he is blowing each kill. StarCraft world champions literally salivating over this man's sustained APM and click speed. Korean teenagers making pilgrimages to his house to learn his secrets (he tells them nothing, he just whispers "I did it all for the Fungi"). Even still, despite his best efforts, he is easily smoked by the Mage's DPS in real world scenarios.But his quixotic crusade persists. He must spread the gospel of Bane and Pox. It's worth it to him to be recognized as the only DPS Shaman in the history of EverQuest (in his delusional mind at least).

You do know that Mages can only cast 1 spell at a time right?

At best you are adding 17 DPS because you are using Boots of Bladecalling instead of Shock of Steel. So you could do 105 DPS tops. A Shaman could also do well over 100 DPS any time there are multiple mobs in camp to DoT. A Shaman can also deal damage or do other things while their DoTs are ticking, while a Mage is basically stuck with the casting window if they are spamming their clickies.

The only silly thing here is you think ~30 DPS is worth losing all of the other things a Shaman can do. A group with 2 Enchanters is already doing plenty of DPS, you aren't going to notice the 30 extra DPS the Mage is doing.

[Crede]

Burnt Wood Staff = 25 DPS clickie nuke, OR
Boots of Bladecalling = 35 DPS clickie nuke
Mage Velious Robe = clickie Shield of Lava (25 point DS)
Mage Velious Pants = clickie Burnout III (pet haste)

A Mage can pump out massive sustained DPS for hours on end using literally no mana and by pressing two buttons per mob. Throw in C2 and downtime medding and the Mage can also toss in regular nukes for even higher DPS. A focused 60 water pet positioned for backstabbing is very close if not greater than epic pet DPS and is very attainable for every Mage main.

The Mage is easily maintaining over 100 DPS while day trading, doing laundry, gardening and lifting weights. Meanwhile DSM's keyboard is catching on fire from pressing buttons so fast trying to Canni/Torpor back the 800 mana he is blowing each kill. StarCraft world champions literally salivating over this man's sustained APM and click speed. Korean teenagers making pilgrimages to his house to learn his secrets (he tells them nothing, he just whispers "I did it all for the Fungi"). Even still, despite his best efforts, he is easily smoked by the Mage's DPS in real world scenarios.But his quixotic crusade persists. He must spread the gospel of Bane and Pox. It's worth it to him to be recognized as the only DPS Shaman in the history of EverQuest (in his delusional mind at least).

Best post in this thread. /clap

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best post in this thread. /clap

It's really not. With Boots he is doing 105 DPS. With Epic DoT a Shaman is doing an extra 7-15 DPS per mob depending on tick time, plus at least 5-10 DPS with JBB. A Shaman can increase their DPS by roughly the same amount if we add clickies to the equation, so you aren't gaining any ground. Plus Epic DoT is not limited to a single target, so you can root/rot multiple mobs in any area that supports it.

[Zuranthium]

A Shaman can regenerate around 16 mana per second.

You require the Cleric to constantly spend mana healing you in order to theoretically be able to canni that much, or you would need to spend your own time and mana on Torpor, which inherently is slowing you down and means that's not your actual mana regen rate.

It only takes about 40 seconds to recover the entire mana cost of Bane + Envenomed Bolt.

Even if you theoretically had enough mana, that can still be too slow. Go to Kael plate cycle. It's an infinite number of MOBs to kill. Being able to DoT every 40 seconds isn't good enough.

But even beyond that, your numbers are STILL very wrong. Your DPS only starts working after spells actually land, and the DoT's need to fully tick (which they frequently don't, as the target dies before the next tick comes). Here is what the numbers actually look like in a group scenario like this:

Spend 5 seconds casting Bane --> 150 damage and will hit 3 ticks = 792 damage
7 seconds later E-bolt hits ---> 110 damage and will hit 2 ticks = 402 damage

That is only 30 DPS. This also assumes you never get resisted, which won't be the case. In actuality the DPS is much lower.

I will help you out though: using E-bolt is pointless, "Blast of Poison" is going to be better instead, as it costs much less mana. You can do a Bane + Blast cycle more frequently (every 30 seconds), and let's say this is sufficient to match the pace of the group. Assuming 70% effectiveness of your spells because of resists, that means the actual realistic DPS is 28. If the Cleric has the mana to always heal you.

[Vexenu]

Wait, are you conceding that a Shaman cannot in fact out-DPS a Mage in realistic scenarios (aka actual EQ not theoretical forumquest)

Because that's been the entire argument. No one has suggested that Shamans don't have utility. Just that their utility is largely wasted with two Enchanters and a Cleric. And it's true the Mage DPS wouldn't be needed either, which is why Necro makes the best fourth wheel, since they add much more utility than either the Shaman or Mage.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/ZFc20z8DItkAAAAM/facepalm-really.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait, are you conceding that a Shaman cannot in fact out-DPS a Mage in realistic scenarios (aka actual EQ not theoretical forumquest)

Because that's been the entire argument. No one has suggested that Shamans don't have utility. Just that their utility is largely wasted with two Enchanters and a Cleric. And it's true the Mage DPS wouldn't be needed either, which is why Necro makes the best fourth wheel, since they add much more utility than either the Shaman or Mage.

Lol You didn't read. Again.

Remember when I did the DPS calculation, and Shamans were at 70 and Mages were at 80? Last time I checked 70 isn't greater than 80:)

I did not say that Shamans are out-DPSing a Mage. I am saying a small difference in DPS (10-30 as the math shows) is not enough to justify bringing a Mage over a Shaman. It's really that simple. You are getting a lot more out of a Shaman's utility than 10-30 DPS in a group with 2 Enchanters.

You are probably thinking about when we were talking about maximum DPS numbers. A Shaman can out-DPS a Mage if they are root/rotting mobs due to how many DoTs you can stack. That doesn't mean it is sustainable, but Troxx at one point was claiming 175 DPS on his Mage, which is obviously him nuke spamming. Shamans can also deal a lot of damage in a less sustainable way hehe.

[Jibartik]

I say we see which group can kill a named mob faster..

lets pick one out of a hat.... Phinigel.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You require the Cleric to constantly spend mana healing you in order to theoretically be able to canni that much, or you would need to spend your own time and mana on Torpor, which inherently is slowing you down and means that's not your actual mana regen rate.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc Nope, I can regenerate that myself with just Torpor:)


Even if you theoretically had enough mana, that can still be too slow. Go to Kael plate cycle. It's an infinite number of MOBs to kill. Being able to DoT every 40 seconds isn't good enough.

But even beyond that, your numbers are STILL very wrong. Your DPS only starts working after spells actually land, and the DoT's need to fully tick (which they frequently don't, as the target dies before the next tick comes). Here is what the numbers actually look like in a group scenario like this:

Spend 5 seconds casting Bane --> 150 damage and will hit 3 ticks = 792 damage
7 seconds later E-bolt hits ---> 110 damage and will hit 2 ticks = 402 damage

That is only 30 DPS. This also assumes you never get resisted, which won't be the case. In actuality the DPS is much lower.

I will help you out though: using E-bolt is pointless, "Blast of Poison" is going to be better instead, as it costs much less mana. You can do a Bane + Blast cycle more frequently (every 30 seconds), and let's say this is sufficient to match the pace of the group. Assuming 70% effectiveness of your spells because of resists, that means the actual realistic DPS is 28. If the Cleric has the mana to always heal you.

You can't math. Let's say a mob dies in 30 seconds.

You Bane first. That is 150 + 214 x 4 ticks = 1006
You E-Bolt second. That is 110 + 146 x 3 ticks = 548

1548 / 30 = 50 DPS lol. Obviously cast times effect DPS a little bit on a per mob basis. The same is true when a Mage is nuke spamming mobs. They could also land the nuke while the mob is at low life and lose DPS that way. They could also use /pet attack late.

The reason why we use average DPS is because not all mobs are going to die in exactly 30 seconds. Sometimes your DPS will be higher, sometimes it will be lower.

Resists can occur on a Mage too, so they are losing DPS as well lol.

[Zuranthium]

No, you don't do that on your own with Torpor. Once again, you do not have the TIME to perma sit there spamming Torpor + Canni. You have to actually cast your damage spells if you want to do DPS. You need the Cleric to heal you if you want to do theoretical maximum DPS.

Interesting how you ignored the other part of the post too, detailing how Shaman spell DPS in this group is actually only going to be about 28.

[Troxx]

but Troxx at one point was claiming 175 DPS on his Mage, which is obviously him nuke spamming. Shamans can also deal a lot of damage in a less sustainable way hehe.

I really wish you would stop putting words in my mouth. I actually said that before the nerf I would average 100-120 dps with lows as low as 80ish and burns as high as 200+.

From parses linked last night (post nerf) I said my highest burn (not sure if I even included it) was 175dps and lowest was 72. Average of averages floated soundly right around 100-105 post nerf and with an unfocused water pet. Averages of averages did not capture dmg shield at all which was kept up on the tank 100% of the time.

Quit being disingenuous and quit quoting average dps of 80 from your retarded napkin math exercises. It wasn’t 80, it was considerably higher.

Disingenuous much?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I really wish you would stop putting words in my mouth. I actually said that before the nerf I would average 100-120 dps with lows as low as 80ish and burns as high as 200+.

From parses linked last night (post nerf) I said my highest burn (not sure if I even included it) was 175dps and lowest was 72. Average of averages floated soundly right around 100-105 post nerf and with an unfocused water pet. Averages of averages did not capture dmg shield at all which was kept up on the tank 100% of the time.

Quit being disingenuous and quit quoting average dps of 80 from your retarded napkin math exercises. It wasn’t 80, it was considerably higher.

Disingenuous much?

No, you're the one putting words in my mouth:) You indeed claim 175 DPS. I didn't say you claimed it as an average.

You were using 175 DPS at the high end, and I haven't said otherwise. But if we want to get into the "What is the max damage you can do" territory, a Shaman can hit 175 too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, you don't do that on your own with Torpor. Once again, you do not have the TIME to perma sit there spamming Torpor + Canni. You have to actually cast your damage spells if you want to do DPS. You need the Cleric to heal you if you want to do theoretical maximum DPS.

Interesting how you ignored the other part of the post too, detailing how Shaman spell DPS in this group is actually only going to be about 28.

You missed the edit. Your math is just wrong, both on Torpor and DPS lol.


You can't math. Let's say a mob dies in 30 seconds.

You Bane first. That is 150 + 214 x 4 ticks = 1006
You E-Bolt second. That is 110 + 146 x 3 ticks = 548

1548 / 30 = 50 DPS lol. Obviously cast times effect DPS a little bit on a per mob basis. The same is true when a Mage is nuke spamming mobs. They could also land the nuke while the mob is at low life and lose DPS that way. They could also use /pet attack late.

The reason why we use average DPS is because not all mobs are going to die in exactly 30 seconds. Sometimes your DPS will be higher, sometimes it will be lower.

Resists can occur on a Mage too, so they are losing DPS as well lol.


Your Blast of Poison idea is silly too. You would deal 800 damage for 400 mana, but you have double the resist chance because you are casting the spell twice. Conversely, if you want to hit 800 damage in the same 30 seconds, you would Bane, then E-Bolt, then use a single JBB cast. That would be 1006 + 548 + 263 = 1817, which is the same damage but you are spending 55 less mana. DPS would be 1817 / 30 = 60 DPS.

Blast of poison would start getting good if you are killing mobs really fast, but at that point why would you need a Mage if your Enchanters are killing mobs in like 10 seconds lol?

[Toxigen]

tee hee

[Danth]

Why would I use Blast of Poison and not Ice Strike if I wanted to blast something as a shaman? Blast is a mediocre mid-level spell, am I missing something?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why would I use Blast of Poison and not Ice Strike if I wanted to blast something as a shaman? It's a mediocre mid-level spell, am I missing something?

Z is just being silly. He can't even math right.

My guess is he is using Blast of Poison due to it's lower cast time. If you were killing mobs every 8 seconds or so it's not a bad choice because Ice Strike's cast time is 7 seconds vs. Blast of Poison's 4.5 second cast time. Ice Strike would be harder to land with such a short window.

[Crede]

We should test, and stream this live.

I can play my enc, DSM can play his shaman, Troxx can play his cleric, and we just need a focused mage/epic mage

Do a seb grind for a few hours with parses/logs running the whole time.

Name a time/place and I'll be there.

Edit: Add in a second enc as well, since we pretty much assumed we had at minimum 2 enc at all times here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We should test, and stream this live.

I can play my enc, DSM can play his shaman, Troxx can play his cleric, and we just need a focused mage/epic mage

Do a seb grind for a few hours with parses/logs running the whole time.

Name a time/place and I'll be there.

Yeah that would be fun! It would need to be on a weekend. Troxx could be on his Mage if we can't find another.

[Zuranthium]

My math is not wrong at all DSM, yours is:

1.) You try to add an extra tick duration to the DoT's when that's not going to happen much of the time with how fast the group is killing single targets.

2.) You suddenly say you can do Bane + Ebolt every 30 seconds, which you can not. You don't have the mana.

3.) You ignore resists.

4.) You don't understand time expenditure. In your latest post you now claim you can throw in JBB, when that does nothing. If you are using JBB then you aren't doing Canni spam in that time allotment, which means you are losing mana.

Resists can occur on a Mage too, so they are losing DPS as well lol.

Most of a Mage's DPS is from pet + unresistible damage shield.

If you compare their ideal direct-damage spell DPS, the Shaman is barely better than the Mage anyway in a group like this. Mage damage spells are more efficient on their own and they can use Manarobe between med ticks when they have free time for a bit of extra mana.

Your Blast of Poison idea is silly too. You would deal 800 damage for 400 mana, but you have double the resist chance because you are casting the spell twice.

You don't have "double the resist chance" you idiot. Blast of Poison is simply flat-out better than Ebolt here. E-bolt is going to do the same amount of damage, since it doesn't have time to actually work fully, and cost you 320 mana rather than 200.

Why would I use Blast of Poison and not Ice Strike if I wanted to blast something as a shaman? Blast is a mediocre mid-level spell, am I missing something?

Ice Strike gets completely resisted by Velious giants.

The cast time also means you are losing a cast of Canni, which in the end means Ice Strike only has a 2.03 damage-to-mana efficiency, hardly better than the 2.0 of Blast. If you factor in Ice Strike fizzling more because of being higher level, then it's not more efficient at all.

[Ripqozko]

Ah shit , here we go again.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My math is not wrong at all DSM, yours is:

1.) You try to add an extra tick duration to the DoT's when that's not going to happen much of the time with how fast the group is killing single targets.

2.) You suddenly say you can do Bane + Ebolt every 30 seconds, which you can not. You don't have the mana.

3.) You ignore resists.

4.) You don't understand time expenditure. In your latest post you now claim you can throw in JBB, when that does nothing. If you are using JBB then you aren't doing Canni spam in that time allotment, which means you are losing mana.



Most of a Mage's DPS is from pet + unresistible damage shield.

If you compare their ideal direct-damage spell DPS, the Shaman is barely better than the Mage anyway in a group like this. Mage damage spells are more efficient on their own and they can use Manarobe between med ticks when they have free time for a bit of extra mana.



You don't have "double the resist chance" you idiot. Blast of Poison is simply flat-out better than Ebolt here. E-bolt is going to do the same amount of damage, since it doesn't have time to actually work fully, and cost you 320 mana rather than 200.



Ice Strike gets completely resisted by Velious giants.

You need to just stop embarrassing yourself.

If you are killing a mob at roughly 30 seconds, you will get the DoT ticks most of the time. If think the group is killing considerably faster than 30 seconds, name the time so I can adjust the spells accordingly hehe.

I am not ignoring resists. You simply don't seem to realize it would affect a Mage too. And since a Shaman can regenerate mana faster, it's less of an issue.

Bane cast is 5 seconds, E-Bolt cast is 6 seconds, JBB is 8 seconds. 20 seconds easily fits into 30 seconds lol. I do have the mana, it is not my fault you can't math.

We aren't talking about Velious giants lol. Ice immunity isn't really an issue in Seb, and your DoTs are generally more mana efficient than Blast of Poison unless you are killing really fast.

The problem here is you are assuming the group is always pulling mobs non-stop. The Shaman has time to recover during fights and in-between pulls. If you insist the group can pull that fast, the mobs must be really easy. The Shaman can simply root/rot mobs while waiting for the Enchanters to kill other mobs in that case. It would be more efficient to split up your efforts if you are killing that fast, and in that case a Shaman could do a lot more DPS for less mana with Epic clicks.

Other nukes are more efficient, so I have no idea what your Blast of Poison scenario would look like. You could Bane and then Ice Strike if you wanted to nuke instead. Ice Strike does 675 damage for 250 mana lol. Also, Ice Strike is 2.7 Damage per mana, not 2.03 lol. You are thinking of the wrong spell, probably Blizzard Blast.

For example, let's say your group only takes 20 seconds to kill a mob. 2x Ice Strikes (1350 / 20) is 67.5 DPS for 500 mana. That is even easier to canni back, and fits within the shorter time frame you are taking about.

You want to Bane + E-Bolt on a mob that is going to die in 30ish seconds so you have more recovery time while the mob is dying. It only takes 12 seconds for both casts, and you get at least 50 DPS out of it. You could 3x Ice Strike for 750 mana and get better DPS, but you would have less recovery time.

[PatChapp]

Wheres the spot in seb with a mob every 20 seconds,would needs to do king+ reet caves + every pather lol

[Danth]

Magician with a 175K manna robe, 800K epic, raid loot click boots, etc had better be pretty flippin good. Sheesh, at pushing near to a cool million plat value not even counting any other spells or slots that makes a shaman look cheap. I think Troxx's more modest character is a much better representation of what we can consider baseline.

Wheres the spot in seb with a mob every 20 seconds,would needs to do king+ reet caves + every pather lol

Think a lot of folks are so used to "grind up levels, hit 60, retire and start new alt" that they perhaps aren't as used to doing stuff the way 60 smallmans usually do. Chain-killing is usually not needed and even fairly busy areas like Velketor Broodmother, a high-damage quad-man like this one is going to run out of mobs before the cycle starts anew. If you're more constantly in combat it's usually going to be something that's living for awhile.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wheres the spot in seb with a mob every 20 seconds,would needs to do king+ reet caves + every pather lol

Exactly. Z is somehow thinking the group is just going to be running through Seb at bard speed slaughtering mobs.

The Shaman will have time to Canni/Torpor in Seb lol.

Magician with a 175K manna robe, 800K epic, raid loot click boots, etc had better be pretty flippin good. Sheesh, at pushing near to a cool million plat value not even counting any other spells or slots that makes a shaman look cheap. I think Troxx's more modest character is a much better representation of what we can consider baseline.



Think a lot of folks are so used to "grind up levels, hit 60, retire and start new alt" that they perhaps aren't as used to doing stuff the way 60 smallmans usually do. Chain-killing is usually not needed and even fairly busy areas like Velketor Broodmother, a high-damage quad-man like this one is going to run out of mobs before the cycle starts anew. If you're more constantly in combat it's usually going to be something that's living for awhile.

Danth

Agreed.

[Zuranthium]

If you are killing a mob at roughly 30 seconds, you will get the DoT ticks most of the time. If think the group is killing considerably faster than 30 seconds, name the time so I can adjust the spells accordingly hehe.

I already listed the accurate uptime of the DoT's. Single targets are generally dying faster than 30 seconds. E-bolt with 1 extra tick is still worse than Shock of Poison anyway.

I am not ignoring resists. You simply don't seem to realize it would affect a Mage too. And since a Shaman can regenerate mana faster, it's less of an issue.

You ARE ignoring resists. You keep claiming a certain DPS number when that is not accurate. Shaman "regenerating mana faster" is irrelevant. That's already factored into the equation of what the Shaman and Mage can do.

The accurate number is about 28 DPS from Shaman direct-damage spellcasting vs 25 for Mage. Then on top of that the Mage has their pet (60 DPS) + damage shield (15 DPS), compared to Shaman pet (12 DPS). That is 100 DPS for the Mage and 40 for the Shaman.

Bane cast is 5 seconds, E-Bolt cast is 6 seconds, JBB is 8 seconds. 20 seconds easily fits into 30 seconds lol. I do have the mana, it is not my fault you can't math.

You are so fucking dumb.

1.) YOU YOURSELF ALREADY SAID YOU ONLY HAVE MANA TO DO BANE + E-BOLT EVERY 40 SECONDS.

2.) The amount of mana you have as a Shaman is dependent on your ability to spam Canni. If you are using JBB, then you are NOT using Canni spam in that time, thus losing a large amount of mana.

As I already said, the best DPS you're going to do is Bane (lasting 3 ticks) + Blast of Poison every 30 seconds.

We aren't talking about Velious giants lol.

Yes we were. I said Kael plate house when you said "there aren't enough MOBs to kill that frequently anyway". Although there is enough to kill in Seb basement anyway if you want to farm the entire thing.

The cold resist thing is irrelevant anyway though, because as I already showed the math for, Shock of Poison is already the top DPS a Shaman can create with direct damage spells. Their cold DD's are slower and thus effectively cost more mana since it's taking away from Canni usage time.

[Keebz]

The fact that you guys think kill speed in Seb is the metric that defines "best" is telling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You were talking about Kael plate house. I never talked about it lol.

Blast of Poison is only useful if you want a nuke against ice immune mobs. In Kael your DoTs will tick longer because the mobs have more HP. I have done plenty of platehouse on my Shaman hehe.

Again, you are assuming the group is pulling mobs non-stop. That is not going to be the case in a higher level area. A Shaman will have time in-between encounters to recover mana lol. You are not going to be killing 70 mobs in an hour in Sebilis with a group, unless you are running from camp to camp and the zone is completely empty.

Your idea of resistances doesn't make sense. If the group is fighting a bunch of mobs with heavy resistances, then your Enchanters may not have any mobs to charm lol. What zone/camp are you thinking of where the Enchanters are able to charm good pets, while the other casters are unable to land any damage spells consistently, while they are killing mobs every 20 seconds?:)

Your DPS number is NOT accurate lol. You need to learn how to do basic DPS calculations.

If you are killing a mob in 24 seconds, you would use 2x Ice Strikes. That is 1350 / 24 = 56.25 DPS for 500 mana. 14 second cast time.

If you are killing a mob in 40 seconds, you would use Bane + E-Bolt. That is 5 ticks from Bane and 4 ticks from E-Bolt for a total of 150 + 110 + 1070 + 584 = 1914 /40 = 48 DPS for 750 mana. 12 second cast time.

The Shaman Pet is doing around 10-15 DPS. A Shaman is easily putting out 60-70 DPS against single targets, and has better mana sustainability than a Mage.

Remember, a Mage is putting out 80 DPS assuming perfect conditions (using nothing but nukes). The real DPS number is closer to the 70s.

If you want to include clickies, a mage is increasing their DPS by 18 if they get Boots of the Bladecaller. A Shaman can easily output that much DPS with JBB/Epic if necessary. There really is only about a 30 DPS gap between Shamans and Mages at best, and at worst it's around 10.

[Karanis]

breathtaking display of autism

Are you autistic?

Yes.

It's easy to be a troll account:)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Karanis still has no evidence, and just likes to insult people when his side loses:)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fact that you guys think kill speed in Seb is the metric that defines "best" is telling.

I don't think this at all. Sadly people are unwilling to provide Mage data, so the only data I have is from Troxx in Seb hehe. I am comparing apples to apples.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/K1kc8Pd.png

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All I can do is repost the actual math. I can't help anybody who doesn't understand it. I am tired of arguing with people who can't add a few numbers together. I am not going to be replying to trolls who cannot do simple math:)

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

If you use https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling you will increase your DPS by a further 17, to end up at around 100 DPS, assuming you do nothing but spam the boots.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

If you are fighting mobs that die faster (under 30 seconds), you can use 2x Ice Strikes for 1350 damage. 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS minimum, plus pet DPS to get you around 60 DPS. But if you are in an area where mobs are dying this fast, you can increase your DPS by root/rotting mobs in one area while the Enchanters clear another. Root/Rotting 3 mobs with Epic Dot + Pox is ((1425 + 2088) x 3) / 108 second = 97 DPS. The mana cost is 1300, which is recoverable in 108 seconds based on the video above.

Best case scenario the difference between a Mage and a Shaman is about 30 DPS on average. Depending on how often the Shaman will be able to use Epic/JBB, that gap shrinks to 10 or less.

[Danth]

...

Funny enough you're under-valuing your own pet somewhat. You had a terrible one (1 above minimum level) and in our hypothetical group it'll always have much better enchanter haste.

Damage shield in a group like this one is almost as bad to figure as shaman root-dotting. First off you have to cut the magician DS effectively by a third because enchanter has its own weaker one. Second, frequent slow usage cripples those things and a lot of groups are going to do that, certainly against anything hard. Third, ping-ponging charm pet aggro means upkeep cost is higher than average due to having to cast it on more than one recipient. Opposite way, a group that *really* wants to use their damage shields can try to constaintly pull pairs, keep everything active and unslowed, apologize to their cleric for severely over-working him, and gain probably over 20 net DPS from it at the cost of an agitated cleric and more frequent average death rate. Pain in the neck to figure its true value.

Frankly for the DS we probably need to accept a standardized value similar to how aircraft performance charts correct to agreed-upon standardized atmospheric conditions. Discussion falls apart otherwise due to too many variables in stuff like that.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Funny enough you're under-valuing your own pet somewhat. You had a terrible one (1 above minimum level) and in our hypothetical group it'll always have much better enchanter haste.

Damage shield in a group like this one is almost as bad to figure as shaman root-dotting. First off you have to cut the magician DS effectively by a third because enchanter has its own weaker one. Second, frequent slow usage cripples those things and a lot of groups are going to do that, certainly against anything hard. Third, ping-ponging charm pet aggro means upkeep cost is higher than average due to having to cast it on more than one recipient. Opposite way, a group that *really* wants to use their damage shields can try to constaintly pull pairs, keep everything active and unslowed, apologize to their cleric for severely over-working him, and gain probably over 20 net DPS from it at the cost of an agitated cleric and more frequent average death rate. Pain in the neck to figure that thing.

Frankly for the DS we probably need to accept a standardized value similar to how aircraft performance charts correct to agreed-upon standardized atmospheric conditions. Discussion falls apart otherwise due to too many variables in stuff like that.

Danth

Yes. Realistically I am undervaluing Shaman's a bit, while strong-manning the Mages. Even then the gap is 30 DPS or less hehe.

[Zuranthium]

Blast of Poison is only useful if you want a nuke against ice immune mobs. In Kael your DoTs will tick longer because the mobs have more HP.

No your DoT's won't tick longer most of the time. The number I gave is already for fighting a 12k HP mob. It dies faster than 30 seconds. And again, even with an extra tick, E-bolt is worse than Blast of Poison. How long will it take you to understand?

Again, you are assuming the group is pulling mobs non-stop. That is not going to be the case in a higher level area.

Yes it is going to be the case, in a group that wants to achieve the most. Aka, "the best 4 person group". There are plenty of zones that have enough content to support continuous killing with high DPS. I suppose it depends a bit on server population, but there are generally underutilized areas anyway.

It's not only about continuous killing, but also factoring in the time that it takes to move around a bit and loot corpses. You're not casting during those times, so it's the same thing of not being able to Canni in those time periods.

Your idea of resistances doesn't make sense. If the group is fighting a bunch of mobs with heavy resistances, then your Enchanters may not have any mobs to charm lol. What zone/camp are you thinking of where the Enchanters are able to charm good pets, while the other casters are unable to land any damage spells consistently?

Resists happen regardless vs this level of MOBs, it doesn't need to be "heavy resists" to be a factor, you're talking complete nonsense. And in EVERY zone there are lower level things to Charm that you then bring over to another area; why do you constantly say such clueless things like this? Either way, Enchanters can still Charm, particularly with Malosini there. A pet that's a few levels higher will break a bit more frequently, but that is simply something the Enchanter is going to be managing away and is irrelevant to the discussion about Direct Damage resist rates.

Your DPS number is NOT accurate lol. You need to learn how to do basic DPS calculations.

If you are killing a mob in 24 seconds, you would use 2x Ice Strikes. That is 1350 / 24 = 56.25 DPS for 500 mana. 14 second cast time.

My DPS number is very accurate, you're the one who is clueless and throwing around idiotic numbers like this.

You DO NOT HAVE THE MANA to do Ice Strike x2 every 24 seconds. In that period of time, you'd be able to Canni 3 times. When combined with C2, that's 300 mana you're able to generate every 24 seconds while trying to spam Ice Strikes. It wouldn't be 56 DPS regardless even if you could spam like that, because again, resists.

I will once again state, the best you can do is Bane of Nife + Blast of Poison every 30 seconds.

---

The fact that you guys think kill speed in Seb is the metric that defines "best" is telling.

When your group already has the tools to CC and stay alive, then of course kill speed is the metric that defines doing something better or not. Kill speed is inherently a form of defense too. When something dies faster, that means you're taking less damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All I can do is repost the actual math. I can't help anybody who doesn't understand it. I am tired of arguing with people who can't add a few numbers together. I am not going to be replying to trolls who cannot do simple math:) Zuranthium yet again is just trying and failing to be smart.

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

If you use https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling you will increase your DPS by a further 17, to end up at around 100 DPS, assuming you do nothing but spam the boots.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

If you are fighting mobs that die faster (under 30 seconds), you can use 2x Ice Strikes for 1350 damage. 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS minimum, plus pet DPS to get you around 60 DPS. But if you are in an area where mobs are dying this fast, you can increase your DPS by root/rotting mobs in one area while the Enchanters clear another. Root/Rotting 3 mobs with Epic Dot + Pox is ((1425 + 2088) x 3) / 108 second = 97 DPS. The mana cost is 1300, which is recoverable in 108 seconds based on the video above.

Best case scenario the difference between a Mage and a Shaman is about 30 DPS on average. Depending on how often the Shaman will be able to use Epic/JBB, that gap shrinks to 10 or less.

[Zuranthium]

Your numbers are not accurate, stop spamming the idiocy.

A Mage can do 100 DPS, whereas a Shaman can 40 DPS in full offense mode in a group like this, and while receiving Cleric heals in order to Canni enough.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All I can do is repost the actual math. I can't help anybody who doesn't understand it. I am tired of arguing with people who can't add a few numbers together. I am not going to be replying to trolls who cannot do simple math:) Zuranthium yet again is just trying and failing to be smart.

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

If you use https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling you will increase your DPS by a further 17, to end up at around 100 DPS, assuming you do nothing but spam the boots.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

If you are fighting mobs that die faster (under 30 seconds), you can use 2x Ice Strikes for 1350 damage. 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS minimum, plus pet DPS to get you around 60 DPS. But if you are in an area where mobs are dying this fast, you can increase your DPS by root/rotting mobs in one area while the Enchanters clear another. Root/Rotting 3 mobs with Epic Dot + Pox is ((1425 + 2088) x 3) / 108 second = 97 DPS. The mana cost is 1300, which is recoverable in 108 seconds based on the video above.

Best case scenario the difference between a Mage and a Shaman is about 30 DPS on average. Depending on how often the Shaman will be able to use Epic/JBB, that gap shrinks to 10 or less.

[Danth]

That reposting isn't needed, I suggest editing it out.

--------------------------------------------------

As for chainpulls, that should not be regarded as a fulltime activity because it heavily depends on where a group's at and they're not going to be in the same place every night. Shouldn't be ignored either though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That reposting isn't needed, I suggest editing it out.

--------------------------------------------------

As for chainpulls, that should not be regarded as a fulltime activity because it heavily depends on where a group's at and they're not going to be in the same place every night. Shouldn't be ignored either though.

All I can do is try to get people to read it. Z is literally doing nonsensical math and trying to tell people it's true.

If you are in an area where the mobs are easy enough to chain pull, you can root/rot. I don't know which area they are talking about where level 60s are chain pulling mobs, killing them in 20 seconds, but you couldn't have a Shaman root/rot mobs because it's too risky, resists are too high, etc.

[Toxigen]

the FIA is doing away w/ Spa Francorchamps for the F1 schedule at the end of this year because oil money and woke jew money don't see the greatest F1 track to ever exist as a money making opportunity anymore

enjoy:

SnOOqY8huvA

[Vexenu]

I'm proposing the following experiment:

A 60 Warrior
A 60 Cleric
DSM's 60 Shaman casting only damage spells, Canni and Torpor (to keep the DPS comparison as even as possible by eliminating variables like slow, buffs and haste on Warrior, etc...)

vs.

The same 60 Warrior
The same 60 Cleric
A 60 Mage (non-Epic is fine, but should have max level water pet, water staff focus, Burnt Wood Staff/Boots of Bladecalling and Velious robe/legs)

An out of group puller is chain pulling as fast as the group can kill. The group who kills the most mobs over the course of xxx time (1 hour? 2 hours?) is the winner, and either DSM's Shaman or the Mage will be declared the master of deeps.

Anyone have a suggested location for this?

[Karanis]

Sure, Fungi King camp :)

[Troxx]

Ah shit , here we go again.jpg

[Danth]

F1

No thanks. Once upon a time they drove turbo V10's and weren't afraid of rubbing wheel to wheel and it was good. Now they drive wussy scared-man cars with safety bars around the top because they're afraid they might break a nail and forget about muscling slow cars out of the way or doing anything else that actually resembles racing because that's too mean. Yuck. They're in a race to the bottom with nascar to see who can most effectively destroy their own sport, right now it's a toss-up as to who's winning that race.

--------------------------------------------

...

Velketor outer spiders are a pretty good DPS race if you can get the zone open...high HP, not too resistant, mostly don't summon. Myconids--doesn't even have to be killing King specifically--or DN Chetari rats are better if you want a good supply of tougher, more resistant opponents that often summon. Something like BM in Velk would be middle-tier in per-mob difficulty. Charasis has variable difficulty available due to scaling levels per wing and offers relatively high density and fairly fast spawn rate with the option of letting the group in question crawl rather than having to necessarily pull to them.

[Troxx]

Your numbers are not accurate, stop spamming the idiocy.

A Mage can do 100 DPS, whereas a Shaman can 40 DPS in full offense mode in a group like this, and while receiving Cleric heals in order to Canni enough.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/ljoB50Kfk3ubm/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bp2g9a2lfr35owz2ccpe84ik1jci0f 3jvrb88799r&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

[Toxigen]

No thanks. Once upon a time they drove turbo V10's and weren't afraid of rubbing wheel to wheel and it was good.


agreed

zfoVqAt0lIM

[Troxx]

Ps please stop respamming my parses tethered to your idiocy.

Don’t make me spam GIFs in response … cause I will

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ps please stop respamming my parses tethered to your idiocy.

Don’t make me spam GIFs in response … cause I will

I am sorry your parses aren't showing what you hoped for, but the math is still true:)

[Toxigen]

Ps please stop respamming my parses tethered to your idiocy.

Don’t make me spam GIFs in response … cause I will

troxx is about to hike a 14'er w/ a sign that says "DSM suck my balls on the top of continental US"

[Troxx]

I am sorry your parses aren't showing what you hoped for, but the math is still true:)

https://c.tenor.com/-zRUM3RMM64AAAAd/big-chungus.gif

[Troxx]

Toxigen you are my man crush. This must be known.

[Zuranthium]

Z is literally doing nonsensical math

I am doing correct math. You are a clueless person that doesn't understand the math, nor time expenditure and spell efficiency.

The max a Shaman can do for this group is Bane of Nife (with 3 ticks triggering) + Blast of Poison every 30 seconds. In addition to casting those spells during that time period you can Canni 6 times. When combined with C2 you're generating 557 mana, while spending 620 mana. So we're actually over the allotted mana amount, but I am being nice saying it's sustainable. The Cleric needs to heal that health you are losing from Canni though, which they could have put into their own damage spell instead.

When properly estimating resist rates, you are doing 40 DPS with spells + pet if the Cleric funnels their own mana into you, as compared to a Mage doing 100 + the Cleric generating like 6 DPS with their own DD. Thus, the Mage is generating 66 more DPS than the Shaman. Deal with it.

[Toxigen]

Toxigen you are my man crush. This must be known.

i cant wait to go back to CO to see ouray and knock out sneffles, handies, and maybe uncompahgre/wetterhorn...i did the leadville 14ers last trip and it was glorious

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am doing correct math. You are a clueless person that doesn't understand the math, nor time expenditure and spell efficiency.

The max a Shaman can do for this group is Bane of Nife (with 3 ticks triggering) + Blast of Poison every 30 seconds. In addition to casting those spells during that time period you can Canni 6 times. When combined with C2 you're generating 557 mana, while spending 620 mana. So we're actually over the allotted mana amount, but I am being nice saying it's sustainable. The Cleric needs to heal that health you are losing from Canni though, which they could have put into their own damage spell instead.

When properly estimating resist rates, you are doing 40 DPS with spells + pet if the Cleric funnels their own mana into you, as compared to a Mage doing 100 + the Cleric generating like 6 DPS with their own DD. Thus, the Mage is generating 66 more DPS than the Shaman. Deal with it.

Blast of Poison isn't as efficient as Ice Strike. Right off the bat you are using a bad spell lol. And you think you are doing the rest of the math right?:)

Blast of Poison does 400 damage for 200 mana. Ice Strike does 675 damage for 250 mana lol.

[Troxx]

…

https://c.tenor.com/xKO1CpkEuxMAAAAC/surprised-sorprendido.gif

[Zuranthium]

Blast of Poison isn't as efficient as Ice Strike

Yes it is, when accounting for the fact that you lose a cast of Canni to use Ice Strike in comparison, and Ice Strike fizzling more. You yet again don't get it. Bring your dumb "conjuration specialization" into the equation and you're even more wrong. Fool.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes it is, when accounting for the fact that you lose a cast of Canni to use Ice Strike in comparison, and Ice Strike fizzling more. You yet again don't get it. Bring your dumb "conjuration specialization" into the equation and you're even more wrong. Fool.

You don't know fizzle rates then lol. Are you just a low level player who is pretending to be max level? Fizzling does occur more often when you aren't 60. I am not using Conjuration specialization either hehe.

[Troxx]

……….

https://c.tenor.com/6JBi7dQPxqoAAAAC/chewing-eating.gif

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/VMTteNp.gif

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/VHHy_xIBWY4AAAAd/shaq.gif

For you, boo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't know what to tell you Zuranthium.

I post a log you can parse yourself that shows 70 DPS. You say it's 40 for some reason.

I posted a video of how fast a Shaman can regenerate mana. You just assume a level 60 group is going to be pulling 50 mobs an hour, but have yet to specify which zone/camp would allow this, which is why you think a Shaman can't get the mana back lol.

And for easier camps where you could easily root rot because your group is killing mobs in 20 seconds, you say a Shaman can't root rot mobs in another area. You are just trying your hardest (and failing) to make any argument that you think will stick.

You think higher level spells fizzle so much you should never use them or something lol. You do know Bane of Nife is higher level than Ice Strike right? Aren't you worried about fizzles?:) Oh Torpor is higher level too. Can't use it because of fizzles.

[Troxx]

…………..

https://c.tenor.com/__6ba8phNC0AAAAC/thirsty-drinking-milk.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And when you have no evidence and your own logs betray you, post funny gifs instead. Sorry you lost.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/bBz9ceRDWSgAAAAd/beard-shaq.gif

[Zuranthium]

You don't know fizzle rates then lol. Fizzling does occur more often when you aren't 60.

Fizzling happens at Level 60, and the higher level a spell is, the more it fizzles. That's a fact and needs to be accounted for, even if it's a small difference.

As I already described, Ice Strike is only a 2.03 damage-to-mana spell when accounting for the lost Canni time. Blast of Poison is 2.0 and the difference in fizzle rate between the two covers that small difference and makes them essentially even. And you have to use the poison spell over the cold spell regardless for Velious giants, which is very relevant.

I posted a video of how fast a Shaman can regenerate mana.

Anyone with a brain already knows how fast a Shaman can regenerate mana. It's factual math.

You factually can not stand around spamming Canni non-stop. You have to actually cast other spells to do damage, which reduces your Canni time. Your "video example" is idiotic, as always.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fizzling happens at Level 60, and the higher level a spell is, the more it fizzles. That's a fact and needs to be accounted for, even if it's a small difference.

As I already described, Ice Strike is only a 2.03 damage-to-mana spell when accounting for the lost Canni time. Blast of Poison is 2.0 and the difference in fizzle rate between the two covers that small difference and makes them essentially even. And you have to use the poison spell over the cold spell regardless for Velious giants, which is very relevant.



Anyone with a brain already knows how fast a Shaman can regenerate mana. It's factual math.

You factually can not stand around spamming Canni non-stop. You have to actually cast other spells to do damage, which reduces your Canni time. Your "video example" is idiotic, as always.

You keep missing the part where I am telling you that you aren't going to be cannibalizing the entire time, because a group isn't going to be pulling 77 mobs an hour. There will be breaks in between.

Your 2.03 damage-to-mana ratio idea is nonsense. Again, you are assuming the group is pulling 77 mob an hour, therefore the Shaman cannot do anything but canni.

Any camp where you could pull 77 mobs an hour, the Shaman can simply go to another area and root rot while the main group is killing just fine. Nobody cares about your Velious Giants example. In Kael your DoTs will last the full time. You are not killing plate house mobs in 20 seconds lol.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/YhSfew6nzqUAAAAM/shaq-tikotk.gif

[Troxx]

I am now contributing more to this thread than DSM by a factor of 10

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is the opposite:) Sorry you lost so bad you have to resort to memes.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/2WHFdbd5mdcAAAAC/freddy-enano.gif

[Troxx]

We’ll be at page 64 by this time tomorrow with the one enlightened one .. the p99 Jesus … lecturing the rest of us all how we are all in denial and none of us understand math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We’ll be at page 64 by this time tomorrow with the one enlightened one .. the p99 Jesus … lecturing the rest of us all how we are all in denial and none of us understand math.

It would be much easier if people didn't act like children when they didn't like the outcome of a discussion:) You could just take a look at the math and either agree with it or try and discuss the math you are using.

Instead you use memes because you have nothing to rebut the math.

[Troxx]

… ……. …….

https://c.tenor.com/xOADayJR40kAAAAM/pet-tiger.gif

[Troxx]

So glad to be back after a 2 year hiatus.

This is a hoot!

Can’t argue with stupid so Shaq gifs will tally ho!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So glad to be back after a 2 year hiatus.

This is a hoot!

It is sad you come back just to troll and give out bad information because you can't admit Mages aren't as good as you thought.

[Troxx]

… …. …...

https://c.tenor.com/K3MVVwcJpkcAAAAC/shaquille-oneal-shaq.gif

[Troxx]

It’s funny because he lacks the testicular fortitude to not have the last post.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s funny because he lacks the testicular fortitude to not have the last post.

It is sad you come back just to troll and give out bad information because you can't admit Mages aren't as good as you thought.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/e3aAWp0HmWcAAAAM/hair-shaq.gif

You lost. You’re wrong … and too ignorant to know when to quit.

Sorry man.

[Troxx]

Post again and prove me right. You can’t not have the last say on any topic.

[Troxx]

Do it. Post again when nobody agrees.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oof, double posting a posting taunt:) Someone's mad.

Here is yet another problem with Zuranthium odd understanding of math.

If you are killing a mob in 30 seconds, using 2x Ice Strikes would be better. You are getting 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS for 500 mana. Your "optimal" example is doing (150 + 214 + 214 + 214 + 400)/ 30 = 40 DPS for 630 mana. Not sure how this is saving anything.

2x Ice Strike takes 14 seconds to cast but costs 130 less mana. Bane + Blast takes 10 seconds.

Cannibalize 4 only gives you 80 mana, so you are still down 50 mana after the extra cannibalize lol.

None of this is taking into account Shaman pet DPS either. The Shaman pet can do around 15 DPS, so you are getting 60 DPS from 2x Ice Strikes and a pet for 500 mana in 30 seconds.

Ice Strike is lower level than Bane too, so less fizzles:)

[Zuranthium]

You keep missing the part where I am telling you that you aren't going to be cannibalizing the entire time, because a group isn't going to be pulling 77 mobs an hour. There will be breaks in between.

A group can certainly pull 77+ mobs an hour if they are good and want to progress the most. And the "breaks" should be for movement, looting, or general afk needs, which means you aren't able to cast during that time anyway. Regarding movement in general, you don't need to kill 77 mobs per hour to achieve maximum efficiency if the area dictates needing to move around to farm (such as running between different areas of PoM). The amount you can kill is still dictated by the DPS though; you want to be doing the most when not moving, otherwise you're killing less. You don't get it.

Nobody cares about your Velious Giants example. In Kael your DoTs will last the full time.

Anyone who wants to hunt Velious giants cares. And no your DoT's are not lasting full time. Like I already said before, a 12k HP target is dying in less than 30 seconds. Just keep being wrong.

[Troxx]

…. ….. ….

https://c.tenor.com/xgStjbyCpgYAAAAM/shaq.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A group can certainly pull 77+ mobs an hour if they are good and want to progress the most. And the "breaks" should be for movement, looting, or general afk needs, which means you aren't able to cast during that time anyway. Regarding movement in general, you don't need to kill 77 mobs per hour to achieve maximum efficiency if the area dictates needing to move around to farm (such as running between different areas of PoM). The amount you can kill is still dictated by the DPS though; you want to be doing the most when not moving, otherwise you're killing less. You don't get it.



Anyone who wants to hunt Velious giants cares. And no your DoT's are not lasting full time. Like I already said before, a 12k HP target is dying in less than 30 seconds. Just keep being wrong.

Please show me the level 60 camp where they are pulling 77 mobs per hour. High level dungeons have a 30 min respawn time.

https://youtu.be/QjJZgbTUoLk?t=850 Those giants aren't dying in 30 seconds with a 6 man group lol. Sorry you are wrong yet again.

https://youtu.be/evvWDdkh6Xk?t=13968 another video, giants aren't dying in 30 seconds with an Ench pet.

I am pretty sure you are just a low level player that seems to think all zones are like the low level zones you can chain pull.

But I am sure you will say something like "I could play way better!", while you have yet to show anything lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Zuranthium is clearly just a troll, or cannot admit he is wrong.

For the record, he believes 500 mana for more damage is worse than 550 mana (after cannibalize) for less damage because of... fizzles at level 60. I rarely get fizzles even on Torpor.

I am done engaging with him in this thread. He won't admit he is wrong, and he won't do math correctly lol.

[Zuranthium]

If you are killing a mob in 30 seconds, using 2x Ice Strikes would be better. You are getting 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS for 500 mana. Your "optimal" example is doing (150 + 214 + 214 + 214 + 400)/ 30 = 40 DPS for 630 mana. Not sure how this is saving anything.

2x Ice Strike takes 14 seconds to cast but costs 130 less mana. Bane + Blast takes 10 seconds. Cannibalize 4 only gives you 80 mana, so you are still down 50 mana after the extra cannibalize lol.

Cannibalize is 82 mana, and it's 625 mana and 9.5 second cast time for the other spells. You can Cannibalize 1.5 times in the extra amount of time, which covers the mana difference, and the reason you use Bane is because there's no partial resist like there is for DD's. It does the most damage on average as such.

https://youtu.be/QjJZgbTUoLk?t=850 Those giants aren't dying in 30 seconds with a 6 man group lol.

That group is clearly doing far less DPS than a dual Enchanter fully-buffed charm pet group. Yet another trash strawman from you. In the other video you link, the one pet being used isn't dual-wielding.

The HP's of the MOB's are 100% verifiable to begin with. They don't have over 12k HP. Enchanter pet group is factually going to be killing them faster than 30 seconds.

If you go to Kael arena and pull higher level things with more HP, that doesn't help the Shaman anyway, because you are just going have higher resist rates. The Mage with their far better pet and unresistible damage shield is keeping their DPS high.

I am pretty sure you are just a low level player

Indeed, that is what you are. The lack of comprehension is staggering.

[PlsNoBan]

I think someone else said it before but the autism really do be breathtaking

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Cannibalize is 82 mana, and it's 625 mana and 9.5 second cast time for the other spells. You can Cannibalize 1.5 times in the extra amount of time, which covers the mana difference, and the reason you use Bane is because there's no partial resist like there is for DD's. It does the most damage on average as such.

That group is clearly doing far less DPS than a dual Enchanter fully-buffed charm pet group. Yet another trash strawman from you. In the other video you link, the one pet being used isn't dual-wielding.

The HP's of the MOB's are 100% verifiable to begin with. They don't have over 12k HP. Enchanter pet group is factually going to be killing them faster than 30 seconds.

If you go to Kael arena and pull higher level things with more HP, that doesn't help the Shaman anyway, because you are just going have higher resist rates. The Mage with their far better pet and unresistible damage shield is keeping their DPS high.

Indeed, that is what you are. The lack of comprehension is staggering.

I just can't let such blatantly false information slide.

1. When you cannibalize 1.5 times, you are losing 225 HP. If you Ice Strike 2x, you save 225 HP by not having to cannibalize at all, and you spend the same mana. This means you save an additional 120 mana or so because you still have that HP to cannibalize later.

2. If you are going to consider partial resists for DDs, you have to apply the penalty to Mages too lol. I notced you kept Mage DPS the same while only penalizing Shamans. If a Shaman loses 5DPS due to partial resists, so does a Mage. The DPS difference remains the same between the two classes. If a Shaman is putting out 60 DPS and a Mage is putting out 100 DPS, partial resists would reduce a Shaman to 55 and a Mage to 95, for example.

3. You are trying really hard to force all encounters to be 30 seconds to try and reduce DoT effectiveness. You have no evidence to suggest every fight is 30 seconds. As usual, any video evidence we show you isn't good enough. You refuse to show any videos yourself to provide evidence of your claims. Platehouse mobs take longer to kill, which means a Shaman can DoT hehe. No Blast of Poison needed.

4. In Kael arena and plate house your group will slow the mobs. So you are losing around 10 DPS due to the 70% slow. Your damage shield is just procing a lot less.

5. Even if we assume your 30 second idea is true, its bad for a Mage. For a group to kill a 12k mob in 30 seconds, you need 400 DPS. The difference in DPS between a Shaman and a Mage is around 30 DPS. That extra 30 DPS is only shaving 2 seconds off of that fight. It isn't worth saving 2 seconds for how much utility you lose vs. a Shaman.

[Troxx]

I think someone else said it before but the autism really do be breathtaking

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/KqhmCKIYAFYAAAAC/shaq-pointing.gif

[Troxx]

20 more pages by the time I have time during work tomorrow… that’s my bet

Walls of the same text from DSM

[Troxx]

Bad shaman be mad shaman be incoherent shaman be … mad/bad/sad.

Nighty night I’ll check in in 12-18 hours more or less. Some of us leet mathematicians have jobs and such (sorry to all you unemployed plebs).

#calculators

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/1FzZvWpmltoAAAAd/shaquille-shaq-kiss.gif

[Toxigen]

I am done

49Z2vtTUWok

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll just keep reposting the facts until the trolls get bored:)

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

If you use https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling you will increase your DPS by a further 17, to end up at around 100 DPS, assuming you do nothing but spam the boots.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

If you are fighting mobs that die faster (under 30 seconds), you can use 2x Ice Strikes for 1350 damage. 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS minimum, plus pet DPS to get you around 60 DPS. But if you are in an area where mobs are dying this fast, you can increase your DPS by root/rotting mobs in one area while the Enchanters clear another. Root/Rotting 3 mobs with Epic Dot + Pox is ((1425 + 2088) x 3) / 108 second = 97 DPS. The mana cost is 1300, which is recoverable in 108 seconds based on the video above.

Best case scenario the difference between a Mage and a Shaman is about 30 DPS on average. Depending on how often the Shaman will be able to use Epic/JBB, that gap shrinks to 10 or less.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/yMCyIJeSRjsAAAAC/stay-cool-drink-water.gif

First it was a 10dps difference. Now it’s a 30dps difference. You’re moving in the right direction!

I’m so proud of you. Keep going!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll just keep reposting the facts until the trolls get bored:)

This post shows a level 60 Mage's average DPS. I will take into account damage shield since it was asked for.

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

Average pet DPS: (46 + 60 + 56 + 52 + 75 + 57 + 50 + 55 + 52) / 9 = ~56 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana, so that means you can cast it a maximum of 78 times, assuming that is all you do and you meditate every tick.

Best possible player DPS: (825 damage x 78 nukes) / 3600 seconds = ~18 DPS.

For damage shield calculations it varies wildly based on what you are fighting, if you are using slow, etc.

I let a froglok jin wizard drain all of it's mana and then beat on me for a minute:

[Tue Aug 23 07:04:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:03 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:06 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:13 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:15 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:22 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:27 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:29 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:31 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:38 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:43 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:45 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:47 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:51 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:54 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:56 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:04:58 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 23 07:05:01 2022] froglok jin wizard was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.

That is 25 hits. A Mage's DS is 33, so that would be (33 x 25) / 60 = ~14 DPS. Basically an extra nuke.

This means a Mage is going to be doing around 88 DPS with an unfocused level 60 Water pet, with Clarity 2, with Damage Shield, while nuking at the absolute best. The real number is going to be lower, since a Mage is not realistically going to be using the maximum number of nukes per hour. They need to use mana for other things. The DS damage will probably be lower in a group too, since mobs may die faster than a minute, get slowed, etc. My guess is the real number is closer to 80 DPS.

If you use https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling you will increase your DPS by a further 17, to end up at around 100 DPS, assuming you do nothing but spam the boots.

================================================== ================================================== =========

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

This is 70.5 DPS to a froglok jin shaman in Sebilis just using a 50% hasted Spirit of the Howler pet and Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt. The pet is not max level. He is hitting for 47, so that is a lower end pet (max is 52, each level increases damage by 2). No need to root/rot with this setup in a group, and the DoTs only last 7 or 8 ticks.

A single set of Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt costs 745 mana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc using this video, it looks like you can Torpor recover mana at around 14 mana per second. If you include C2, it is more like 16 mana per second. This means you can recover the 745 mana in 46 seconds. That is easily the length of a fight if Enchanters are fighting 2 mobs with charmed pets. This means the DPS is generally sustainable too.

If you are fighting mobs that die faster (under 30 seconds), you can use 2x Ice Strikes for 1350 damage. 1350 / 30 = 45 DPS minimum, plus pet DPS to get you around 60 DPS. But if you are in an area where mobs are dying this fast, you can increase your DPS by root/rotting mobs in one area while the Enchanters clear another. Root/Rotting 3 mobs with Epic Dot + Pox is ((1425 + 2088) x 3) / 108 second = 97 DPS. The mana cost is 1300, which is recoverable in 108 seconds based on the video above.

Best case scenario the difference between a Mage and a Shaman is about 30 DPS on average. Depending on how often the Shaman will be able to use Epic/JBB, that gap shrinks to 10 or less.

[PatChapp]

Move to rnf, continue discussion.
Tl;Dr
Mage bad. Shaman better. Opinion 1
Shaman bad,mage better Opinion 2

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Move to rnf, continue discussion.
Tl;Dr
Mage bad. Shaman better. Opinion 1
Shaman bad,mage better Opinion 2

Yeah people are just trolling at this point. It is really sad. They can't stay out of RnF apparently, and have to troll here.

[Crede]

There's really no point to continue to discuss numbers anymore. We've agreed the mage will most likely out dps a shaman who is actually trying to only dps at 60. The question though is by how much.

The best we can do is just go out and test it. It would be best to try a few different zones. We'd need 2 enchanters, a cleric, a mage, and a shaman. I'm willing to play my enchanter as one of them.

I think it's fair to allow the mage to have at minimum focused water pet, and the velk boots, and a manna robe as these items really aren't that hard to obtain, considering a shamans epic mq/torpor/pox/bane and the rest of their spells boast a similar monetary value. Additionally, the enchanters should at minimum have a tola robe on their pets, as those are also really easy to obtain.

Regardless of the results, should make for a good time!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's really no point to continue to discuss numbers anymore. We've agreed the mage will most likely out dps a shaman who is actually trying to only dps at 60. The question though is by how much.

The best we can do is just go out and test it. It would be best to try a few different zones. We'd need 2 enchanters, a cleric, a mage, and a shaman. I'm willing to play my enchanter as one of them.

I think it's fair to allow the mage to have at minimum focused water pet, and the velk boots, and a manna robe as these items really aren't that hard to obtain, considering a shamans epic mq/torpor/pox/bane and the rest of their spells boast a similar monetary value. Additionally, the enchanters should at minimum have a tola robe on their pets, as those are also really easy to obtain.

Regardless of the results, should make for a good time!

Agreed, a test would be great! Shaman DPS changes based on the area/test. If you can root/rot ahead of the Enchanters, you will do much higher DPS, over 100.

[PatChapp]

If your on green, I can provide a 60 mage or enchanter.
No clickies on mage,but phinny staff/60 pet.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If your on green, I can provide a 60 mage or enchanter.
No clickies on mage,but phinny staff/60 pet.

I am on blue unfortunately, otherwise that would be great.

[Troxx]

So your plan now is to continue copying and pasting the same post? It’s like the 12th time you’ve done it so far.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So your plan now is to continue copying and pasting the same post? It’s like the 12th time you’ve done it so far.

It is more productive than your trolling:) It is not my fault you don't like the data.

[Ripqozko]

It is more productive than your trolling:) It is not my fault you don't like the data.

Straight up autism if you think somehow spamming something 12 times is better then trolling.

[Troxx]

It is more productive than your trolling:).

Is it though?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is it though?

Yes, posting gifs instead of trying to provide data that counters mine is trolling. If you really think the numbers are off, post some videos and logs. Those will be much more definitive than your aggregated parses. Then we have the raw data.

As of right now you are just trolling and making yourself look really silly.

[PatChapp]

So your plan now is to continue copying and pasting the same post? It’s like the 12th time you’ve done it so far.

How is what your doing different? You make the same points repeatedly,yet provide no logs or actual evidence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How is what your doing different? You make the same points repeatedly,yet provide no logs or actual evidence.

Exactly.

[Troxx]

Yes that’s what this thread needs … some YouTube videos.

[Troxx]

How is what your doing different? You make the same points repeatedly,yet provide no logs or actual evidence.

Yeah scroll back to pages 20-24 and see where I actually contributed some actual data, not napkin math. Those parses he keeps reposting at the top of his forum-diarrhea were mine … shamefully misrepresented by DSM unfortunately.

[PlsNoBan]

Your data is trash. You continually post numbers and math and completely disregard the fact that nobody plays perfectly optimally all the time. Especially during extended grind sessions. Shit doesn't always work out exactly like you calculated on your spreadsheet. Playing a shaman optimally for long periods is an exhausting button mashing clusterfuck. I know from experience. Mages can really completely phone it in and still be like 90% effective with almost zero effort. You can't math this factor no matter how hard you try. There's a number of other factors you also can't really account for with your compulsive need to math everything out. You have the most astounding bias and hardheadedness of anyone I've ever seen on this forum and that is TRULY an impressive feat. Like I'm not even trolling when I say that. I've had plenty of arguments on these forums with shit for brains people with idiotic ideas but you absolutely take the cake sir.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah scroll back to pages 20-24 and see where I actually contributed some actual data, not napkin math.

This is not napkin math. In Everquest players have a fixed amount of Mana/time to do things. The numbers I showed are indeed the average based on those numbers, if you don't get twitched. You can easily math out maximum average DPS assuming perfect conditions. In reality the numbers are lower for both classes due to other factors, but you can see the average difference.

I also showed real data by the way. But for some reason you think your data is somehow real while mine isn't. I still haven't figured out the logic there:)

Your data is trash. You continually post numbers and math and completely disregard the fact that nobody plays perfectly optimally all the time. Especially during extended grind sessions. Shit doesn't always work out exactly like you calculated on your spreadsheet. Playing a shaman optimally for long periods is an exhausting button mashing clusterfuck. I know from experience. Mages can really completely phone it in and still be like 90% effective with almost zero effort. You can't math this factor no matter how hard you try. There's a number of other factors you also can't really account for with your compulsive need to math everything out. You have the most astounding bias and hardheadedness of anyone I've ever seen on this forum and that is TRULY an impressive feat. Like I'm not even trolling when I say that. I've had plenty of arguments on these forums with shit for brains people with idiotic ideas but you absolutely take the cake sir.

Using the lazy player argument works against Mages too. If a Mage is being lazy, they will forget to /pet attack, forget to re-apply DS, forget to nuke, etc. Of course lazy players will DPS lower, but that is irrelevant to what the classes can do when played normally hehe.

[PlsNoBan]

Using the lazy player argument works against Mages too. If a Mage is being lazy, they will forget to /pet attack, forget to re-apply DS, forget to nuke, etc. Of course lazy players will DPS lower, but that is irrelevant to what the classes can do when played normally hehe.

Implying it takes the same amount of effort to play a mage as it does to play a shaman optimally in an avg xp group situation might be the most idiotic thing you've said so far. Mages have 1 buff every 15 min to worry about and it only needs to be applied to 1 target. You can literally macro /pet attack and a couple nukes (with pauses) to 1 literal button press. Depending on the group DPS output and mob HP you can probably often get away with 1 button press per mob. 2-3 at worst. Meanwhile your shaman has 3+ buffs that should be applied to the entire group at all times. You're talking about pox/bane/epic click/jbb just to do less damage than the 1 button mage. This isn't even accounting for canni dance spam to recover the mana for the next mob as you have repeated like 400 times in this thread. You also have 2 debuffs to the mage's 1.

You're fucking high if you think a lazy mage and a lazy shaman will be equally affected by laziness

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Implying it takes the same amount of effort to play a mage as it does to play a shaman optimally in an avg xp group situation might be the most idiotic thing you've said so far. Mages have 1 buff every 15 min to worry about and it only needs to be applied to 1 target. You can literally macro /pet attack and a couple nukes (with pauses) to 1 literal button press. Depending on the group DPS output and mob HP you can probably often get away with 1 button press per mob. 2-3 at worst. Meanwhile your shaman has 3+ buffs that should be applied to the entire group at all times. You're talking about pox/bane/epic click/jbb just to do less damage than the 1 button mage. This isn't even accounting for canni dance spam to recover the mana for the next mob as you have repeated like 400 times in this thread. You also have 2 debuffs to the mage's 1.

You're fucking high if you think a lazy mage and a lazy shaman will be equally affected by laziness

The problem here is you are basically assuming a lazy mage will always do X, and a lazy shaman will always do Y. It's on a per player basis, so you can't get any data on what percentage of players play their class normally. For all you know most Mages just afk and leech XP:)

The only thing you can do is look at how the classes are played normally. Torpor Shamans are going to be doing their job, because anybody who hates Canni/Torporing would have stopped playing their Shaman. It's the same logic with bards. If you don't like a class that requires more effort, you don't play it.

[PlsNoBan]

The problem here is you are basically assuming a lazy mage will always do X, and a lazy shaman will always do Y. It's on a per player basis, so you can't get any data on what percentage of players play their class normally. For all you know most Mages just afk and leech XP:)

The only thing you can do is look at how the classes are played normally. Torpor Shamans are going to be doing their job, because anybody who hates Canni/Torporing would have stopped playing their Shaman. It's the same logic with bards. If you don't like a class that requires more effort, you don't play it.

You're out of your mind. Literally out of your mind. When I played my shaman in groups I would start out keeping every buff on everyone and busting my ass to be canni'ing constantly if I wasn't FM or doing something else. I'd be throwing dots and rooting and keeping my pet up/hasted.etc but after about 2-3 hours my ambition inevitably fades. I'd start doing less and less cause shaman is so much fucking busywork to play optimally. If I hit 4+ hours on an extended grind session I was 100% phoning it in. I stopped worrying about buffs on non-tanks other than like haste. Often I stopped really caring about doing DPS and just making sure nobody died and mobs were slowed. If I had nothing that needed to be done I'd sit instead of canni so I could just not have to pay attention and button mash and just watch netflix on other monitor for a second or something.

Mage is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to play lazily and not lose much or any effectiveness. It's not even a contest. There is no possible argument you can make otherwise. Mage is literally the lazy class. It's had that reputation since 1999 for a reason.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're out of your mind. Literally out of your mind. When I played my shaman in groups I would start out keeping every buff on everyone and busting my ass to be canni'ing constantly if I wasn't FM or doing something else. I'd be throwing dots and rooting and keeping my pet up/hasted.etc but after about 2-3 hours my ambition inevitably fades. I'd start doing less and less cause shaman is so much fucking busywork to play optimally. If I hit 4+ hours on an extended grind session I was 100% phoning it in. I stopped worrying about buffs on non-tanks other than like haste. Often I stopped really caring about doing DPS and just making sure nobody died and mobs were slowed. If I had nothing that needed to be done I'd sit instead of canni so I could just not have to pay attention and button mash and just watch netflix on other monitor for a second or something.

Mage is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to play lazily and not lose much or any effectiveness. It's not even a contest. There is no possible argument you can make otherwise. Mage is literally the lazy class. It's had that reputation since 1999 for a reason.

Just because you get lazy doesn't mean that's how everybody plays. I am sorry, but you are not the only Shaman on P99. Don't blame the class because you can't handle it.

[Troxx]

Mage is by far the laziest class I’ve played in eq. It’s so relaxing after 60 levels of bard, shaman, necro, etc. Heck it’s even easier than warrior (cause they actually do have to move around).

It’s pet attack and click the same nuke as often as mana allows. Oh … and every 15 minutes you re-haste your pet and periodically cast a damage shield.

It takes about as close to zero effort to maximize your potential compared to any other class … all while putting out top tier dps in groups.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage is by far the laziest class I’ve played in eq. It’s so relaxing after 60 levels of bard, shaman, necro, etc. Heck it’s even easier than warrior (cause they actually do have to move around).

It’s pet attack and click the same nuke as often as mana allows. Oh … and every 15 minutes you re-haste your pet and periodically cast a damage shield.

It takes about as close to zero effort to maximize your potential compared to any other class.

That's irrelevant to the topic at hand. It doesn't matter which class is easier or harder.

The logic doesn't make sense. Group A wants to get a Mage because they care about DPS (kill speed efficiency). At the same time, Group A is fine with their players being lazy and not DPSing well (which lowers kill speed efficiency).

You can't have it both ways. You can't argue that a group wants a Mage for DPS, but doesn't mind the Mage and other group members slacking off and lowering DPS lol.

Better to get a Shaman at that point, because they need to pay attention more. They aren't AFKing and not /pet attacking, nuking, or buffing because they are watching Netflix.

[Troxx]

Mage puts out top tier dps while slacking off. Their BASELINE is slacking off and being lazy. It’s not like trying harder and being more busy increases mage potential. Once you have your max summon pet up, you’re literally just clicking pet attack, your best nuke, and managing 2 medium duration buffs on 2 targets (your pet and the tank).

Difference between a lazy mage doing the bare minimum and a “omg trying so hard mage”?

Practically zero unless you’re gonna be doing fancy shit that requires CoTH tricks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage puts out top tier dps while slacking off. Their BASELINE is slacking off and being lazy. It’s not like trying harder and being more busy increases mage potential. Once you have your max summon pet up, you’re literally just clicking pet attack, your best nuke, and managing 2 medium duration buffs on 2 targets (your pet and the tank).

Difference between a lazy mage doing the bare minimum and a “omg trying so hard mage”?

Practically zero.

It's irrelevant, because the Shaman will be playing normally too.

If you are going to say the Mage is lazy, that means they are not /pet attacking, nuking, and/or buffing at the normal rate. You don't get to tilt the scales just because you like Mages hehe.

[Troxx]

It’s cool though. Enjoy your nonstop click fest trying to pretend a shaman is good dps. The mage will sit back giggling and doing twice your damage while checking their Facebook page.

Shamans aren’t a group dps class. Excellent healers/support. Excellent soloers (and capable of plowing down some damage in that role. Fantastic duo/trio toons.

But they aren’t an effective choice for doing dps in fast paced groups. They are mediocre at best and outclasses by every melee. Hell my paladin with NToV spear will be doing measurably more dps than your shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s cool though. Enjoy your nonstop click fest trying to pretend a shaman is good dps. The mage will sit back giggling and doing twice your damage while checking their Facebook page.

Shamans aren’t a group dps class. Excellent healers/support. Excellent soloers (and capable of plowing down some damage in that role. Fantastic duo/trio toons.

But they aren’t an effective choice for doing dps in groups.

The data shows otherwise. They can do both. As stated many times before, a Mages DPS isn't necessary in a 2x Enchanter group to begin with, which is why a Shaman's utility is preferred. If your Enchanters are doing 400 DPS, you are killing a mob with 12k HP in 30 seconds. A Mages 30 DPS difference compared to a Shaman would increase the kill speed by 2 seconds. That's not worth losing all of the utility a Shaman has to offer.

[PlsNoBan]

It’s cool though. Enjoy your nonstop click fest trying to pretend a shaman is good dps. The mage will sit back giggling and doing twice your damage while checking their Facebook page.

Shamans aren’t a group dps class. Excellent healers/support. Excellent soloers (and capable of plowing down some damage in that role. Fantastic duo/trio toons.

But they aren’t an effective choice for doing dps in groups.

You know it and I know it and every seasoned EQ player knows it.

DSM is braindead unfortunately.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You know it and I know it and every seasoned EQ player knows it.

DSM is braindead unfortunately.

No. People are just sentimental to this game because they are willing to play it 20 years later. If you like a Mage, you will defend it because you have an emotional attachment to the class. It doesn't make the class any better than it is on P99.

[PlsNoBan]

No. People are just sentimental to this game because they are willing to play it 20 years later. If you like a Mage, you will defend it because you have an emotional attachment to the class. It doesn't make the class any better than it is on P99.

I have zero sentiment for the mage class in particular. I don't have a raging hardon for shamans either though. I'm able to be objective in regards to what classes excel at what roles. If I have any bias it's probably against druid. I've always felt druid is a shit tier class. Only thing its halfway decent at is PLing and porting. At least I can admit my biases tho :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have zero sentiment for the mage class in particular. I don't have a raging hardon for shamans either though. I'm able to be objective in regards to what classes excel at what roles. If I have any bias it's probably against druid. I've always felt druid is a shit tier class. Only thing its halfway decent at is PLing and porting. At least I can admit my biases tho :)

You are assuming I have a bias. I don't have any more bias than you to be honest. I am just looking at the game objectively based on the math and my years of play experience. I know it is an easy argument to try and assign bias to me, but I am literally showing mathematical truths based on real data.

Mages are good in lower level chain pulling groups for sure. But sadly they just peter out at level 60. A rogue with Epic and a decent offhand will out DPS a Mages top DPS with all of the clickies and probably Epic pet too. The last rogue I parsed in Seb was doing 133 DPS, and that isn't including the assassin procs which instant-kill enemies.

[Vexenu]

This needs to be settled with an actual demonstration where DSM tries to keep up with Mage DPS for a couple hours straight. It will quickly become apparent that he is wildly overestimating his ability to sustain respectable DPS for more than a few minutes at a time, despite what his "math" says.

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This needs to be settled with an actual demonstration where DSM tries to keep up with Mage DPS for a couple hours straight. It will quickly become apparent that he is wildly overestimating his ability to sustain respectable DPS for more than a few minutes at a time, despite what his "math" says.

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

Lol the difference there is there are more variables to that equation:) Your Everquest character never tires, they always have the exact same performance. And the player behind the keyboard isn't running a marathon, so they aren't expending energy that fast either.

This is a terrible straw man.

[PlsNoBan]

This needs to be settled with an actual demonstration where DSM tries to keep up with Mage DPS for a couple hours straight. It will quickly become apparent that he is wildly overestimating his ability to sustain respectable DPS for more than a few minutes at a time, despite what his "math" says.

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

I lol'd

Super accurate

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol the difference there is there are more variables to that equation:) Your Everquest character never tires, they always have the exact same performance. And the player behind the keyboard isn't running a marathon, so they aren't expending energy that fast either.

This is a terrible straw man.

[PlsNoBan]

Lol the difference there is there are more variables to that equation:) Your Everquest character never tires, they always have the exact same performance. And the player behind the keyboard isn't running a marathon, so they aren't expending energy that fast either.

This is a terrible straw man.

People experience fatigue when gaming and get lazier during extended sessions. It's not a straw man lol. Everyone I know experiences this. Nobody plays 100% optimally every second for 12 hours at a camp like you imply in your amazing math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People experience fatigue when gaming and get lazier during extended sessions. It's not a straw man lol. Everyone I know experiences this. Nobody plays 100% optimally every second for 12 hours at a camp like you imply in your amazing math.

Lol you think pressing buttons on a keyboard is expending the same energy as a marathon:)

Sorry you can't click buttons for a few hours.

[PlsNoBan]

Lol you think pressing buttons on a keyboard is expending the same energy as a marathon:)

Sorry you can't click buttons for a few hours.

It's mental not physical you moron

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's mental not physical you moron

Lol you think clicking buttons for a few hours costs more mental energy than running a marathon.

Sorry you can't play games for more than an hour.

If you're that bad at Everquest, your Mage DPS is going to suck too. If people still let you into their groups, they are fine with you doing bad DPS. It's really that simple. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim a group is looking to maximize DPS (and therefore are looking for a Mage) while simultaneously allowing you to slack off and be lazy at your DPS job.

[Troxx]

This needs to be settled with an actual demonstration where DSM tries to keep up with Mage DPS for a couple hours straight. It will quickly become apparent that he is wildly overestimating his ability to sustain respectable DPS for more than a few minutes at a time, despite what his "math" says.

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

Omg I just died laughing

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Omg I just died laughing

It's sad that you did, because the example is horribly wrong. It is such an obvious strawman that it just makes you and Vexenu look silly:)

It's a good thing though. It shows everybody that you don't understand math problems, because you think a real life situation such as a runner running towards a specific location is the exact same thing as a video game where the math never changes, the rules are fixed, and it is a much simpler world. You are also expending a lot less energy as a whole.

Running long distances is much harder and more complex than playing a video game for a few hours lol.

When you can't win with evidence, you got back to trolling.

[PlsNoBan]

I think someone else said it before but the autism really do be breathtaking

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes PlsNoBan, your autism is preventing you from understanding basic math, or being able to play a video game for more than an hour.

You have my sympathies. Playing a Mage and pressing a few buttons an hour is more your speed for sure.

[Ripqozko]

Join VQ and be guilded with DSM

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Join VQ and be guilded with DSM

I am not the one who looks bad here. Keep trolling along with Troxx, PlsNoBan, etc. You look really bad when you just post memes and nonsense when discussing game mechanics because the outcome isn't what you wanted. Similar to a child having a tantrum. Please leave the trolling in RnF so you don't continue to embarrass yourself.

[Ripqozko]

I am not the one who looks bad here. Keep trolling along with Troxx, PlsNoBan, etc. You look really bad when you just post memes and nonsense when discussing game mechanics because the outcome isn't what you wanted. Similar to a child having a tantrum. Please leave the trolling in RnF so you don't continue to embarrass yourself.

Join VQ today, wouldn’t you want to hear him everyday

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Join VQ today, wouldn’t you want to hear him everyday

Again, this is such a silly thing to say. I am not the one who started acting like an asshole, you can check the post history:)

I am only responding in kind to the people who would use insults and trolling when they don't get their way. I am allowed to defend myself.

I am sorry all you can contribute to this forum is trolling.

[Crede]

It's sad that you did, because the example is horribly wrong. It is such an obvious strawman that it just makes you and Vexenu look silly:)

It's a good thing though. It shows everybody that you don't understand math problems, because you think a real life situation such as a runner running towards a specific location is the exact same thing as a video game where the math never changes, the rules are fixed, and it is a much simpler world. You are also expending a lot less energy as a whole.

Running long distances is much harder and more complex than playing a video game for a few hours lol.

When you can't win with evidence, you got back to trolling.

It's really not a strawman point. I brought this up many pages ago when I said a shaman would have to go "bonkers" to keep up with a mage, even at 60. This makes sense, because a mage was designed specifically as a group dps class.

People are lazy, especially who play this game hehe. We look for the most efficient, laziest way to do something. That pretty much sums up human behavior in general. Why would I want to do an action every X seconds when I could be more lazy and do an action slower every Y seconds and still end up doing superior dps, even if the difference isn't gamebreaking? We also aren't all 14 years old anymore, we have jobs/lives/families and sometimes need to be semi-afk along with more distractions these days technologywise to be doing at the same time. Hell, I bet a lot of people are probably playing blue/green both at once, which results in even more lazy play when evaluated in isolation.

For me, utility has extremely diminishing returns. DPS doesn't, because more DPS just means more kills/xp/loot. If I already have an enc/cleric, I'm taking a mage 100% of the time over a shaman if I don't need Torpor and I'd bet that if you took a fairly sizable sample of players, most shaman's will lose even more ground on dps compared to a mage as time went on due to the shaman needing to play at such a higher level for longer.

You think that because this game is built on math/logic, that everything can be explained with math/logic. This is your biggest fallacy, because everything changes in application given how diverse humans are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's really not a strawman point. I brought this up many pages ago when I said a shaman would have to go "bonkers" to keep up with a mage, even at 60. This makes sense, because a mage was designed specifically as a group dps class.

People are lazy, especially who play this game hehe. We look for the most efficient, laziest way to do something. That pretty much sums up human behavior in general. Why would I want to do an action every X seconds when I could be more lazy and do an action slower every Y seconds and still end up doing superior dps, even if the difference isn't gamebreaking? We also aren't all 14 years old anymore, we have jobs/lives/families and sometimes need to be semi-afk along with more distractions these days technologywise to be doing at the same time. Hell, I bet a lot of people are probably playing blue/green both at once, which results in even more lazy play when evaluated in isolation.

For me, utility has extremely diminishing returns. DPS doesn't, because more DPS just means more kills/xp/loot. If I already have an enc/cleric, I'm taking a mage 100% of the time over a shaman if I don't need Torpor and I'd bet that if you took a fairly sizable sample of players, most shaman's will lose even more ground on dps compared to a mage as time went on due to the shaman needing to play at such a higher level for longer.

You think that because this game is built on math/logic, that everything can be explained with math/logic. This is your biggest fallacy, because everything changes in application given how diverse humans are.

Except it simply isn't true that you would need to go "bonkers". That is the point you are missing.

A level 60 group is not pulling 70+ mobs an hour in most camps. A Shaman will have plenty of time between pulls to recover mana, go AFK, etc.

If a level 60 group is pulling 70+ mobs an hour, that means you are in an easier zone like Velks, Seb, etc., where the Shaman can go off and root/rot mobs to deal good DPS if that's what the group needs. A Shaman can easily do over 100 DPS in this scenario.

Utility does not have diminishing returns at all. If you don't have CC, Heals, etc., you die in a lot of areas hehe. Any area where you don't need CC, Heals, etc., the content is already so trivial your Mage could probably face tank the mobs themselves just fine. At that point we are talking about farming greens or something. A Shaman could again just go around root/rotting everything hehe.

It is a fact that games are built on Math and Logic. It is not a fallacy at all. It is quite easy to figure the math out if you know the variables.

The only fallacy here is people are trying to use the "people are lazy argument" to lower the DPS of a Shaman, while keeping a Mage's DPS the same. That just isn't a good argument, because a lazy Mage is going to be doing less DPS too. Whether you are intentionally doing it or not, you are trying to find a way to increase the DPS gap between a Mage and a Shaman without using actual data. You just have some fuzzy concept about what you think players do. This isn't an insult, it is simply what you are doing when you field this kind of argument. It isn't a valid argument at all, so it is not relevant to the topic at hand.

When determining a classes power, you always assume the class is being played correctly. Otherwise, you could just say Mages are bad because all they do is summon items and then AFK. That isn't what people do, but you don't actually have the data to prove this isn't the case.

[Danth]

For me, utility has extremely diminishing returns.

This is always going to make this type of debate unending because utility doesn't have a set value and doesn't show up on a convenient log parser. Different folks value it differently. I've had that argument before in game with couple of friends who had a monk and shaman duo. After a friendly competition we were all slightly surprised to see the wife and I (sk/shaman) had more kills over a 5 hour period than they did because they died a couple times and we did not. Even that could've gone the other way. At the end of the game EQ's a fairly loosely-tuned game and offers different ways of achieving success. That success *is* a finite end point: There reaches a point in any player's career where there is no more loot he cares about, where platinum no longer matters. Nearly any group discussed in this thread could reach such a point and in truth there won't be THAT much difference in how long it takes them to get there given equal effort.

(edit--for the post below)
... but I do believe most people have an "APM bucket".

Maybe....but equally as maybe the shaman player's already a bit manic and can simply go longer than the lazier dude who picks a magician. I definitely know shamans who are very much capable of maintaining their constant activity for hours on end, and keeping it up for years. I'm married to one such EQ'er. I sure as heck wouldn't do that, I hate shaman mechanics, I'll stick with my SK, thanks. The wife's far enough to the other end that as her health has declined and she's less physically able to play the shaman consistently anymore, she'd mostly rather not play at all than play a lower-activity character like her druid or cleric. Some people are funny like that--and because of that, for the sake of this type of discussion we might as well assume that the characters in question are being played similarly for similar lengths of time. That's really all we can control for. Likewise the magician is WAY better for limited players (kids, non-gamers, etc), dramatically better, but we can't really control for player ability either other than to passingly aknowledge that advantage.

Danth

[Crede]

Except it simply isn't true that you would need to go "bonkers". That is the point you are missing.

A level 60 group is not pulling 70+ mobs an hour in most camps. A Shaman will have plenty of time between pulls to recover mana in most cases.

If a level 60 group is pulling 70+ mobs an hour, that means you are in an easier zone like Velks, Seb, etc., where the Shaman can go off and root/rot mobs to deal good DPS if that's what the group needs.

Utility does not have diminishing returns at all. If you don't have CC, Heals, etc., you die in a lot of areas hehe. Any area where you don't need CC, Heals, etc., the content is already so trivial your Mage could probably face tank the mobs themselves just fine. At that point we are talking about farming greens or something. At that point a Shaman could again just go around root/rotting everything hehe.

It is a fact that games are built on Math and Logic. It is not a fallacy at all. It is quite easy to figure the math out if you know the variables.

The only fallacy here is people are trying to use the "people are lazy argument" to lower the DPS of a Shaman, while keeping a Mage's DPS the same. That just isn't a good argument, because a lazy Mage is going to be doing less DPS too. Whether you are intentionally doing it or not, you are trying to find a way to increase the DPS gap between a Mage and a Shaman without using actual data. You just have some fuzzy concept about what you think players do. This isn't an insult, it is simply what you are doing when you field this kind of argument.

Yes but as a shaman is recovering the mana, so will the mage. It favors them even more because they can start nuking more heavily if you're just waiting on mobs. Going off and root rotting a bunch of mobs to increase your dps requires more actions still, and most shamans dont do this hehe.

You're not understanding diminishing returns. Saying "healing/cc is needed or you die" has nothing to do with diminishing returns. You don't need 3 healers to beat fungi king. It has a minimum amount needed then after that it becomes more and more useless.

You missed my point about Math/Logic. I never said the game wasn't built on it. I'm saying it doesn't always play out as you predict it will, because humans/users are random. Math doesn't account for a human who decides to watch netflix on the other screen in your xp group.

A lazy mage can basically dps what a non-lazy shaman is doing. Even slightly beat it. A lazy mage can send in the pet, and click velk boots. And probably put out around 80 dps on average. A shaman who decides to be just as lazy with their APM is probably doing like 30-40 dps. This is factual, because mages were designed to be a group dps class, shamans were not.

And yea, I agree, the data doesn't technically exist, but I do believe most people have an "APM bucket". If you've ever played Starcraft competitively at a high level, usually after X amount of games you're just done. It just gets tiring. EQ is definitely less APM than Starcraft, but the same point still applies. A shaman will likely hit their point of laziness sooner that a mage. And I'd bet money if we could get a sample of lets say 100 mages/shamans and record their dps over time, the shaman will lose even more ground simply due to that fact.

We aren't all robots hehe, humans are quiet lazy beings.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is always going to make this type of debate unending because utility doesn't have a set value and doesn't show up on a convenient log parser. Different folks value it differently. I've had that argument before in game with couple of friends who had a monk and shaman duo. After a friendly competition we were all slightly surprised to see the wife and I (sk/shaman) had more kills over a 5 hour period than they did because they died a couple times and we did not. Even that could've gone the other way. At the end of the game EQ's a fairly loosely-tuned game and offers different ways of achieving success. That success *is* a finite end point: There reaches a point in any player's career where there is no more loot he cares about, where platinum no longer matters. Nearly any group discussed in this thread could reach such a point and in truth there won't be THAT much difference in how long it takes them to get there given equal effort.

Danth

Agreed.

Yes but as a shaman is recovering the mana, so will the mage. It favors them even more because they can start nuking more heavily if you're just waiting on mobs. Going off and root rotting a bunch of mobs to increase your dps requires more actions still, and most shamans dont do this hehe.

You're not understanding diminishing returns. Saying "healing/cc is needed or you die" has nothing to do with diminishing returns. You don't need 3 healers to beat fungi king. It has a minimum amount needed then after that it becomes more and more useless.

You missed my point about Math/Logic. I never said the game wasn't built on it. I'm saying it doesn't always play out as you predict it will, because humans/users are random. Math doesn't account for a human who decides to watch netflix on the other screen in your xp group.

A lazy mage can basically dps what a non-lazy shaman is doing. Even slightly beat it. A lazy mage can send in the pet, and click velk boots. And probably put out around 80 dps on average. A shaman who decides to be just as lazy with their APM is probably doing like 30-40 dps. This is factual, because mages were designed to be a group dps class, shamans were not.

And yea, I agree, the data doesn't technically exist, but I do believe most people have an "APM bucket". If you've ever played Starcraft competitively at a high level, usually after X amount of games you're just done. It just gets tiring. EQ is definitely less APM than Starcraft, but the same point still applies. A shaman will likely hit their point of laziness sooner that a mage. And I'd bet money if we could get a sample of lets say 100 mages/shamans and record their dps over time, the shaman will lose even more ground simply due to that fact.

We aren't all robots hehe, humans are quiet lazy beings.

The Shaman is recovering mana much faster. It's really on a different level from the Mage. I am not sure why it is difficult to press "root" and "Epic" a few times, while running around. That is pretty simple, and most classes do it when they are soloing.

The interesting thing is you are using the "lazy player" argument (people are semi AFK watching Netflix), but you don't understand that redundancy in utility is even better in this case. If you only have one healer (a cleric), they may miss the first few seconds of a 2 pet charm break. That could easily be the difference between life and death. Having multiple healers means you have less chance that both the Shaman and the Cleric are watching Netflix at the same time. That is one place where the redundancy really shines, because even one group wipe is going to destroy whatever slight DPS lead a Mage is giving you. The other benefit to redundancy is people can only cast one spell at a time. Having the Shaman spamming slow on Fungi King means the enchanters can focus on other things like double stunning.

[Crede]

Agreed.



The Shaman is recovering mana much faster. It's really on a different level from the Mage. I am not sure why it is difficult to press "root" and "Epic" a few times, while running around. That is pretty simple, and most classes do it when they are soloing.

The funny thing is you are using the "lazy player" argument (people are semi AFK watching Netflix), but you don't understand that redundancy in utility is even better in this case. If you only have one healer (a cleric), they may miss the first few seconds of a 2 pet charm break. That could easily be the difference between life and death. Having multiple healers means you have less chance that both the Shaman and the Cleric are watching Netflix. That is one place where the redundancy really shines, because even one group wipe is going to destroy whatever slight DPS lead a Mage is giving you.

Yea but then you have a strong mage pet to pick up the break, one that is stronger than a shaman's pet, and more dps. And moving around/rooting/rotting/positioning/canni/etc. is a lot more work than just sitting there, nuking, and sit/stand hehe.

This is a game of centimeters & milliseconds. Most are taking the DPS edge if they can get it. To most it's worth the risk of not having that double healer if it means they can get a few more DPS.

If you value this Safety utility differently, that is fine, but I don't think this applies to the majority of players. I think most would agree that 100% Necessary Utility > DPS > "Safety" Utility. I'm not claiming I'm right about this, but it's my opinion from the experiences I've had.

[Toxigen]

this is the dumbest fucking shit ive ever seen how the fuck did you spergs take this all the way to 50 pages

fuck.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

this is the dumbest fucking shit ive ever seen how the fuck did you spergs take this all the way to 50 pages

fuck.

Right back at you:) Stop sperging in this thread with nonsense.

[Danth]

I think most would agree that 100% Necessary Utility > DPS > "Safety" Utility. I'm not claiming I'm right about this, but it's my opinion from the experiences I've had.

No argument; my experience agrees. Most folks tend to downplay deaths/setbacks/etc as "doesn't count." A lot of folks simply LIKE faster killspeed even if it comes with more setbacks/etc, and it's also hard to put a value on plain old fun. I'm not even calling 'em right or wrong, just it is what it is and the general preference for offense in-game is indeed noticeable. The wife and I have quite often felt like the proverbial tortise in a world of hares: Slow but consistent, getting to the end in a similar length of time because our fastest isn't as fast but we don't have as many setbacks either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea but then you have a strong mage pet to pick up the break, one that is stronger than a shaman's pet, and more dps. And moving around/rooting/rotting/positioning/canni/etc. is a lot more work than just sitting there, nuking, and sit/stand hehe.

This is a game of centimeters & milliseconds. Most are taking the DPS edge if they can get it. To most it's worth the risk of not having that double healer if it means they can get a few more DPS.

If you value this Safety utility differently, that is fine, but I don't think this applies to the majority of players. I think most would agree that 100% Necessary Utility > DPS > "Safety" Utility. I'm not claiming I'm right about this, but it's my opinion from the experiences I've had.

That's where most people probably differ in this thread.

From my years of experience a bit of extra DPS isn't worth the extra risk. Most mobs have pretty low HP in this game, so kill speeds are generally fine unless you are purposely trying to make the slowest group comp you possibly could.

Even one group wipe destroys the DPS advantage of a Mage vs. a Shaman. At best you are set back 10-30 minutes (if you are lucky), at worst your group disbands hehe.

Adding 30 DPS to a group with 2x Enchanter pets is going to give you a lot less benefit than the extra utility and safety a Shaman has to offer. Never wiping is a good way to out-perform a high DPS group that is wiping.

[Toxigen]

This is a game of centimeters & milliseconds.


Nah. Don't confuse 25 year old elf sim with modern competitive online games.

EQ is a game of doing the same thing over and over and over again in the proper order.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/W5EYcLh.jpg

Hyperfocus is the perpetual and unrelenting state of intense single-minded concentration fixated on one thought pattern at a time, to the exclusion of everything else. (Journal of Neurology & Neurophysiology 2020)

Autistic players probably have less issues being hyper focused on mashing buttons in the proper sequence sitting at their desk for 18 hrs straight than regular players. Maybe this is why DSM is confused at the concept of mental fatigue and not being able to play 100% perfectly all day long without losing focus and doesn't understand that playing a shaman to the level he's talking about requires significantly more focus and attention than hitting 1-2 buttons and sitting as a mage.

All jokes aside having autism kinda seems like having video game superpowers and I'm a little jealous