Best 4 person all caster/priest group [Archive] - Page 9

Troxx

09-07-2022, 02:05 PM

If I can do 1350 damage solo, what changes when I deal 1350 damage in a group?.

Because shamans do their best damage with dots. You know that. I know that. We all know it.

In a fast paced group your dots won’t have time to do anything substantial. I know that. You SHOULD know that. We all already know this.

In a fast paced group your only bet is to do your best nuke. Shaman’s best nuke is lower damage, longer cast time, and far less efficient than a mages nukes. Yes you can canni but that takes time away from your casting of said nukes and obligates you to spend even more time torporing yourself. All that time spent casting stuff other than your nuke is meditation time lost and nuke time lost - dps doesn’t happen when you are canni’ing or torporing. While you ARE doing that the mage pet is putting out a respectable sustained 60dps (+/-) as well. Can you lay down more total nuke damage over a sustained period of time than a mage? Probably yeah, assuming the group never runs out of mobs and has no down time. Even though your nuke sucks, has a long cast time and is mana-inefficient, shamans do have excellent mana recovery. I’ll give you that. But your pet is garbage dps compared to a 60 water pet backstabbing and nuking (frequently these days) for 116 dmg a pop.

What you can do solo is irrelevant. I hopped on my shaman last night and solo’d NG for a while. Epic click, bane, pox etc. max summon pet with str/focus stack and haste. Pet averaged about 18dps. It was easy but there was a hell of a lot of time spent canni’ing and torporing just to keep up.

Point is I know precisely what you are capable of DSM. I have a 60 shaman. I HAVE done what I have asked you to do. I already know the answer. I encourage you to actually try it so you can see it for yourself … otherwise you’ll just accuse me of photoshopping parse screenshots or cherry picking data to fit my agenda.

Shamans are not a group dps class. If a group a shaman is in sees the shaman doing respectable dps … it’s only because the groups dps is craptastic and mobs are living long enough for dots to run their full course.

I also have a 60 necro. In groups I don’t bother with dots even though they are better than shaman dots. Why? Shit doesn’t live long enough or them to be effective. Better to fucking lifetap than try to splurt/pyro/cessation stuff.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 02:10 PM

Because shamans do their best damage with dots. You know that. I know that. We all know it.

In a fast paced group your dots won’t have time to do anything substantial. I know that. You SHOULD know that. We all already know this.

In a fast paced group your only bet is to do your best nuke. Shaman’s best nuke is lower damage, longer cast time, and far less efficient than a mages nukes. Yes you can canni but that takes time away from your casting of said nukes and obligates you to spend even more time torporing yourself. All that time spent casting stuff other than your nuke is meditation time lost and nuke time lost - dps doesn’t happen when you are canni’ing or torporing. While you ARE doing that the mage pet is putting out a respectable sustained 60dps (+/-) as well. Can you lay down more total nuke damage over a sustained period of time than a mage? Probably yeah, assuming the group never runs out of mobs and has no down time. Even though your nuke sucks, has a long cast time and is mana-inefficient, shamans do have excellent mana recovery. I’ll give you that. But your pet is garbage dps compared to a 60 water pet backstabbing and nuking (frequently these days) for 116 dmg a pop.

What you can do solo is irrelevant. I hopped on my shaman last night and solo’d NG for a while. Epic click, bane, pox etc. max summon pet with str/focus stack and haste. Pet averaged about 18dps. It was easy but there was a hell of a lot of time spent canni’ing and torporing just to keep up.

Point is I know precisely what you are capable of DSM. I have a 60 shaman. I HAVE done what I have asked you to do. I already know the answer. I encourage you to actually try it so you can see it for yourself … otherwise you’ll just accuse me of photoshopping parse screenshots or cherry picking data to fit my agenda.

Shamans are not a group dps class. If a group a shaman is in sees the shaman doing respectable dps … it’s only because the groups dps is craptastic and mobs are living long enough for dots to run their full course.

I also have a 60 necro. In groups I don’t bother with dots even though they are better than shaman dots. Why? Shit doesn’t live long enough or them to be effective. Better to fucking lifetap than try to splurt/pyro/cessation stuff.

As I said before, my intent isn't to accuse you of photoshopping your data. My point about photoshopping is simply that asking me to prove a negative is a two way street. If you ask me to prove that my data is valid, I can ask you the same thing, and we would be at an impasse. If you want to make the claim that my data isn't valid for this situation, it is up to YOU to prove it.

I know what a Shaman is capable of too. If you did DPS testing on your Mage, please show it.

The assumption you are making is the only thing people do are fast paced groups, killing trivial content. That has been where this discussion has been stuck at, because it makes a Mage look a bit better (that is the highest DPS gap between Shamans and Mages).

Any fight that matters (which is what level 60s would be doing) will take longer than 30 seconds, and then you can use your DoTs.

If you can chain pull mobs that die in 30 seconds, you can also root/rot to assist in killing stuff faster.

On a mob with 15000 HP or more, a group with 2x Enchanters cannot actually kill the mob in 30 seconds. You would need to hit 500 DPS to kill it in 30 seconds, which 2x Enchanters cannot do mathematically as far as I am aware. Your current data shows a level 47 mob with dual wield capabilities doing 86 DPS, so the Enchanters could do around 200 DPS total between them. We would need to see parse data of really good pets to see what the top-end DPS of charmable pets are. I would love to see that. In that situation the fight is taking long enough with the two Enchanters for a Shaman to DoT successfully. Bane and E-Bolt take less than a minute to finish each. Casting both spells takes a total of 2 ticks, and Bane is 7 ticks, E-bolt is 8 ticks. In one minute, that is already doing 48 DPS, assuming you aren't doing other DoTs/DD's.

cyxthryth

09-07-2022, 02:26 PM

I know what a Shaman is capable of too. If you did DPS testing on your Mage, please show it.

Relevant data has been presented to you time and again, it is not our responsibility to ensure you do not ignore it, misunderstand it or misconstrue your true understanding of it hehe. :)

The assumption you are making is the only thing people do are fast paced groups, killing trivial content. That has been where this discussion has been stuck at, because it makes a Mage look a bit better (that is the highest DPS gap between Shamans and Mages).

No. The (incorrect) assumption you are making is that others have assumed the only thing people do are fast paced groups, killing trivial content. Nobody has stated this is the case that I am aware of, and you have provided no evidence for this, so I am not sure what point you think you are making or refuting hehe. :)

Any fight that matters (which is what level 60s would be doing) will take longer than 30 seconds, and then you can use your DoTs.

You have provided zero evidence for this, so it remains an unsubstantiated claim hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

If you can chain pull mobs that die in 30 seconds, you can also root/rot to assist in killing stuff faster.

You can also call the sky red or continue to post irrelevant solo root rotting data, but that would (continue to) be wholly irrelevant, so I am not sure what point you think you are making or refuting hehe. :)

I am not sure why any of this is difficult.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe others are having difficulty of some kind hehe. :)

On a mob with 15000 HP or more, a group with 2x Enchanters cannot actually kill the mob in 30 seconds. You would need to hit 500 DPS to kill it in 30 seconds, which 2x Enchanters and a Mage cannot possibly do mathematically. A Shaman could use their DoTs here.

I am not sure what point you think you are making or refuting hehe. :)

Irrelevant statements, irrelevant math & irrelevant hypotheticals are simply that - irrelevant. :)

Toxigen

09-07-2022, 02:33 PM

https://www.autismspeaks.org/

Troxx

09-07-2022, 02:53 PM

https://www.autismspeaks.org/

https://c.tenor.com/72k3bUCOO3UAAAAC/autism-autistic.gif

Troxx

09-07-2022, 03:15 PM

. Bane and E-Bolt take less than a minute to finish each. Casting both spells takes a total of 2 ticks, and Bane is 7 ticks, E-bolt is 8 ticks. In one minute, that is already doing 48 DPS, assuming you aren't doing other DoTs/DD's.

A) with 2 charmed chanter pets mobs will not be alive long enough for 2 ticks of cast time and 7/8 additional ticks to get full return on mana. You are wasting mana and better off casting 2 ice strikes for less mana and more actual damage delivered on target before it dies.

B) you’re spending 745 mana per fight to do “48 dps” which, when paired with your pet is just barely more dps than a 60 water pet by itself, not factoring in mage nukes or DS.

C) you just dumped 745 mana PER FIGHT, spending 2 ticks just to get them loaded, on a mob that’s going to live 15-20 seconds (30 at most). So yeah you get 1-2 ticks (3 at most but nah it’ll be almost dead before you’re done casting) of total damage for 745 mana and barely better damage on a fast paced group fight than a mage could have accomplished in 1 nuke for 240 mana. This effectively puts you at a 500 HUNDRED MANA DEFICIT (per fight!!) relative to the mage. Yeah you can make that up with canni, but that’s gonna take you 6 canni IVs just yo break even. But wait, now you gotta torpor yourself to cover the difference. While you are doing all of the above the lazy mage is meditating and ready to drop more bombs while you self recover mana and juggle your health. That mage is also ready to engage and nuke the next mob while you try to cannibalize your 500 mana deficit back.

D) congrats. those 2 spells are massive aggro and you WILL rip aggro from the charm pets if you cast at the start of the fight. Now the cleric has to spend time/mana healing your ass OR you have to spend even more time torporing yourself.

Net result? You’re being super busy, ripping aggro, generating unnecessary cleric mana deficit from healing you instead of complete healing the 6-8k hp pet … all while actually doing maybe the same but probably less total damage than the mage pet by itself.

Vs the mage who is just sitting on their ass, pet attacking and lazily lobbing nukes … the sum total of which will blow your actual damage output out of the water.

But please. Join a fast moving HIGH DPS (remember this theoretical group is rocking 2 charm pets) and prove us otherwise.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 03:26 PM

A) with 2 charmed chanter pets mobs will not be alive long enough for 2 ticks of cast time and 7/8 additional ticks to get full return on mana. You are wasting mana and better off casting 2 ice strikes for less mana and more actual damage delivered on target before it dies.

B) you’re spending 745 mana per fight to do “48 dps” which, when paired with your pet is just barely more dps than a 60 water pet by itself, not factoring in mage nukes or DS.

C) you just dumped 745 mana PER FIGHT, spending 2 ticks just to get them loaded, on a mob that’s going to live 15-20 seconds (30 at most). So yeah you get 1-2 ticks (3 at most but nah it’ll be almost dead before you’re done casting) of total damage for 745 mana and barely better damage on a fast paced group fight than a mage could have accomplished in 1 nuke for 240 mana. This effectively puts you at a 500 HUNDRED MANA DEFICIT (per fight!!) relative to the mage. Yeah you can make that up with canni, but that’s gonna take you 6 canni IVs just yo break even. But wait, now you gotta torpor yourself to cover the difference. While you are doing all of the above the lazy mage is meditating and ready to drop more bombs while you self recover mana and juggle your health. That mage is also ready to engage and nuke the next mob while you try to cannibalize your 500 mana deficit back.

D) congrats. those 2 spells are massive aggro and you WILL rip aggro from the charm pets if you cast at the start of the fight. Now the cleric has to spend time/mana healing your ass OR you have to spend even more time torporing yourself.

Net result? You’re being super busy, ripping aggro, generating unnecessary cleric mana deficit from healing you instead of complete healing the 6-8k hp pet … all while actually doing maybe the same but probably less total damage than the mage pet by itself.

Vs the mage who is just sitting on their ass, pet attacking and lazily lobbing nukes … the sum total of which will blow your actual damage output out of the water.

But please. Join a fast moving HIGH DPS (remember this theoretical group is rocking 2 charm pets) and prove us otherwise.

A) It depends on the mob. A mob with 15000 HP or more will not die in 30 seconds. The DPS your Enchanter's pet was doing is 86, with haste and dual wield. That means 2x Enchanters is only dealing around 170 DPS. It will take 88 seconds to kill a mob at that speed, which is more than enough for DoTs to be ticking for their full duration, or close to it. A Shaman adding 80 DPS will still cause the mob to die in 60 seconds instead of 88, so again, full tick time.

B) Yes, and Shamans can recover mana a lot faster than a Mage. If you cast 2x Shock of Steel, that is 500 mana that can only be recovered while meditating.

C) We aren't talking about mobs that die fast when using DoTs. Why do you keep bringing this up? You would use DDs, as shown in my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E

D) There is something called root. If the mob summons AND dies in 30 seconds, you wouldn't be DoTing a mob that dies this fast. If the mob summons and takes a long time to die, the Shaman is probably slow tanking it anyway.

Please provide Mage DPS data similar to mine first.

A fast paced group killing mobs in 30 seconds or less with just 2 Enchanters doesn't need extra DPS to begin with. You get diminishing returns on DPS increases. You only need 200 DPS to kill a mob in 40 seconds, and the 2x Enchanters are already covering that. An extra 30 DPS will only save you 5 seconds per kill.

Troxx

09-07-2022, 03:35 PM

A fast paced group killing mobs in 30 seconds or less with just 2 Enchanters doesn't need extra DPS to begin with.

No argument there, but they also do not need a shaman’s worse dps, their slow, heals, roots, or really anything else.

Option 1: take the mage doing considerably more dps, can haste mask pets, can DS, can give mod rods, can situationally CoTH as needed, has a pet that can tank as well as most “tanks” with bad oh shit moments and pet breaks, and who won’t be ripping aggro and siphoning cleric mana.

Option 2: take the shaman who does considerably less dps, has redundant heals/utility you won’t need, will gank aggro like a magnet if played the way you previously described.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 03:36 PM

No argument there, but they also do not need a shaman’s worse dps, their slow, heals, roots, or really anything else.

Option 1: take the mage doing considerably more dps, can haste mask pets, can DS, can give mod rods, can situationally CoTH as needed, has a pet that can tank as well as most “tanks” with bad oh shit moments and pet breaks, and who won’t be ripping aggro and siphoning cleric mana.

Option 2: take the shaman who does considerably less dps, has redundant heals/utility you won’t need, will gank aggro like a magnet if played the way you previously described.

I am not sure what the problem is then.

We both agree the DPS is irrelevant, which means the argument for Mage DPS is off the table.

When talking about the other two points that were brought up way earlier in the discussion, Charm Break Safety and Malo, the Shaman wins in those departments.

Shamans can also tank and save the group mana. You would use Tola robes on pets, not masks. Damage shield is part of the DPS argument, which we agree is irrelevant.

You would only pick Mage over Shaman if you need CoTH, which everybody including myself already agrees upon.

Chortles Snortles

09-07-2022, 03:37 PM

guys i can root
(lol)

Troxx

09-07-2022, 03:38 PM

From page 3 of this dumpster fire:

Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.

So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.

I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

I stand by my first post in this thread … back before we got side tracked with you saying shamans can dps like mages and warriors can solo better than enchanters

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 03:43 PM

warriors can solo better than enchanters

Why do people keep straw manning my arguments? I said a Warrior can do more DPS than an Enchanter pet levels 1-30, and I backed this up with data. I didn't say they could do it after level 30, as you seem to be implying.

You agree that the Mage DPS is irrelevant in a group with 2x Enchanters, so again I am not sure what the problem here is. With DPS off the table (including damage shields), the Shaman is superior in everything else you mentioned besides CoTH.

They can deal with charm breaks better.
They can Malo better.
They can tank better.
They can save the group mana.
Summoned Mage haste items are irrelevant when level 60s use Tola Robes for the Enchanter pets.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 03:52 PM

They can deal with charm breaks better.
They can Malo better.
They can tank better.
They can save the group mana.
Summoned Mage haste items are irrelevant when level 60s use Tola Robes for the Enchanter pets.

1: Decent enchanters don't need help with this

2: Very slightly better malo. Largely irrelevant. Can speak from experience playing enc on p99 with both malo versions.

3: A tank isn't needed in this group

4: Not needed. Nobody is going oom in this group if played correctly.

5: Tola robes are certainly better. In the event they are not available a mage summoned haste item is a nice perk.

As has been pointed out countless times. Shamans are very powerful and have great utility. It's just not utility that is useful or needed for this particular group setup. You seem to be assuming the enc/clr are bad and/or will make frequent mistakes that a shaman will be useful to correct. Again we're assuming good players that very infrequently make mistakes. They're more than capable of chugging along without extra heals or a very slightly better resist debuff. All shamans bring to this group is mediocre DPS that (even by your own admission) a mage can do better. YES WE ALL KNOW DPS ISN'T SUPER IMPORTANT WITH 2 CHARMS YOU DENSE FUCK. Slightly more DPS is still better than less DPS with unnecessary utility.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 03:54 PM

1: Decent enchanters don't need help with this

2: Very slightly better malo. Largely irrelevant. Can speak from experience playing enc on p99 with both malo versions.

3: A tank isn't needed in this group

4: Not needed. Nobody is going oom in this group if played correctly.

5: Tola robes are certainly better. In the event they are not available a mage summoned haste item is a nice perk.

As has been pointed out countless times. Shamans are very powerful and have great utility. It's just not utility that is useful or needed for this particular group setup. All they bring to the group is mediocre DPS that (even by your own admission) a mage can do better.

Again, I am not sure what the disagreement here is then.

Even if we say the Malos are equal, that just nullifies the benefit.

If tanks aren't needed, that nullifies the Mage Pet tanking benefit.

If nobody is going oom, Mod Rods aren't needed.

If the group has Tola Robes, Muzzle isn't needed.

If The DPS is irrelevant for both a Mage and a Shaman, then you might as well bring the class that has a broader toolkit. If you need DPS the Shaman can provide it, but they offer a lot of other benefits as well. The only exception here is CoTH, which we all agree upon.

The difference is slightly better DPS vs. better safety. Safety is better when dealing with harder content, which is what level 60s do.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 03:55 PM

Again, I am not sure what the disagreement here is then.

Even if we say the Malos are equal, that just nullifies the benefit.

If tanks aren't needed, that nullifies the Mage Pet tanking benefit.

If nobody is going oom, Mod Rods aren't needed.

If the group has Tola Robes, Muzzle isn't needed.

If The DPS is irrelevant for both a Mage and a Shaman, then you might as well bring the class that has a broader toolkit. If you need DPS the Shaman can provide it, but they offer a lot of other benefits as well. The only exception here is CoTH, which we all agree upon.

Perhaps the disagreement lies in you believing your unneeded utility is more important than extra DPS. I disagree heavily. Redundant utility has 0 value. Extra DPS (even if not needed) is more valuable.

Troxx

09-07-2022, 03:59 PM

We both agree the DPS is irrelevant.

If your goal is to kill things, dps is never irrelevant. Whether or not you “need” more is debatable. But remember the title of this thread is best FOUR person all caster group.

Something’s gotta fill the 4th.

1. Stack a third enchanter? Great dps but risk does increase. Never a bad choice.

2. Add a mage? Very solid dps plus some added side perks (a great backup tank that won’t “break” and cause mayhem, mod rods, malo etc)

3. Add a necro? Respectable but not great dps when not charming but has a massive toolkit to include backup rez and twitches and will still do more dps than the next choice.

4. Add a shaman? Meh dps. Has utility but is anything actually contributory other than malo? Not really. Pet sucks for dps but can take some punches if buffed (and the mob is slowed) so there is some minor value there.

None of the above are bad to add mind you but I there is a strong case to be made that option 2 would be ideal (balance of dps/utility, no added risk and stacking a malo). 1 is mega dps but you lose the extra pet debuffs and risk does go up. 3 very solid as well for reasons discussed above.

4? Not a bad pick but little actual additional value added.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 04:03 PM

If your goal is to kill things, dps is never irrelevant. Whether or not you “need” more is debatable. But remember the title of this thread is best FOUR person all caster group.

Something’s gotta fill the 4th.

1. Stack a third enchanter? Great dps but risk does increase. Never a bad choice.

2. Add a mage? Very solid dps plus some added side perks (a great backup tank that won’t “break” and cause mayhem, mod rods, malo etc)

3. Add a necro? Respectable but not great dps when not charming but has a massive toolkit to include backup rez and twitches and will still do more dps than the next choice.

4. Add a shaman? Meh dps. Has utility but is anything actually contributory other than malo? Not really. Pet sucks for dps but can take some punches if buffed (and the mob is slowed) so there is some minor value there.

None of the above are bad to add mind you but I there is a strong case to be made that option 2 would be ideal (balance of dps/utility, no added risk and stacking a malo). 1 is mega dps but you lose the extra pet debuffs and risk does go up. 3 very solid as well for reasons discussed above.

4? Not a bad pick but little actual additional value added.

Agree 100% with all of this. I've said since the beginning that the BEST option is more enchanters. It's always more enchanters. They're a completely broken class by any reasonable metric. Mage and Necro both bring more value to this setup than a shaman. Hell even a druid would be more valuable if grouping in an area with animal charm available. Besides a 2nd cleric or maybe wizard? shaman might be the least value of the casters with this group makeup.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 04:06 PM

If your goal is to kill things, dps is never irrelevant.

DPS does have diminishing returns, which is why it isn't always the best choice in group scenarios.

If your group has 100 DPS, it will take 80 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP.

If your group has 200 DPS, it will take 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP.

if your group has 400 DPS, it will take 20 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP.

A group of 4x Enchanters could do 400 DPS. However, everybody seems to agree Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric is a better option. This is because adding 2 more Enchanters to an Enchanter duo only saves 20 seconds per kill (half of what the first two Enchanters are bringing), but increases the chance of your group wiping significantly. In that case, safety wins over DPS, which is why you pick a Cleric as the fourth member.

Perhaps the disagreement lies in you believing your unneeded utility is more important than extra DPS. I disagree heavily. Redundant utility has 0 value. Extra DPS (even if not needed) is more valuable.

I think so. From my years of experience I find safety to be better than a bit of extra DPS, because group wipes tend to cut play time short. This could end up costing you more time than what you saved with faster DPS. If your group was planning on playing for 4 hours, and quits after 2 due to a wipe, you lost 2 hours of play time. Perhaps you have played in groups where that doesn't happen as often. I think this is a good place to end the discussion. At this point we end up arguing about preference, and that is just a matter of opinion.

Toxigen

09-07-2022, 04:10 PM

muh "data"

Ripqozko

09-07-2022, 04:12 PM

muh "data"

hes your guildy too, oof

Crede

09-07-2022, 04:20 PM

From my years of experience I find safety to be better than a bit of extra DPS, because group wipes tend to cut play time short. This could end up costing you more time than what you saved with faster DPS. If your group was planning on playing for 4 hours, and quits after 2 due to a wipe, you lost 2 hours of play time. Perhaps you have played in groups where that doesn't happen as often. I think this is a good place to end the discussion. At this point the discussion becomes more about preference.

I think you slightly overvalue utility. That very well may be your experience, but I think on average most people want to level/kill as fast as possible and they will likely take more dps with a small chance of dying over more utility with almost no chance of dying. This is because this game isn't that hard, most of us have put in the hours to master it by now, and people just want to be efficient with their time. Having potentially wasted utility is not efficient. Having more dps is always efficient if you can avoid death, which generally you can. CRs also are relatively pretty easy on this server. Almost everybody has access to a rogue/necro/sk to help retrieve their corpse or if not people are usually pretty friendly and willing to help out.

We are back to where we were on page 52. It is clear you place a high value on utility. But I'm confident that most would prefer the extra DPS once minimum utility has been met.

There's no need to continue this discussion any further.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 04:21 PM

I think so. From my years of experience I find safety to be better, since group wipes tend to cut play time short. This could end up costing you more time than what you saved with faster DPS. If your group was planning on playing for 4 hours, and quits after 2 due to a wipe, you lost 2 hours of play time. Perhaps you have played in groups where that doesn't happen as often. I think this is a good place to end the discussion. At this point the discussion becomes more about preference.

When I said my assumption is the group is good players that know how to play their class it was assumed there would be very very little to no wiping happening. I've run 2 charms in groups for 8+ hours multiple times with no singular deaths let alone full group wipes. You apparently have had groups with less skilled players overall and have experienced more wipes than I have. In this situation I can perhaps understand why you'd want extra safety to account for people fucking up. This is a different conversation than the one I was having. If you're playing in a group with people fucking up on a semi regular basis a shaman is probably better. But in that case I'd probably prefer a necro for emergency FD/rez recovery. If someone fucks up royally a shaman isn't gonna be able to save a wipe and your best option will be FDing a necro and EE rezzing the cleric.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 04:24 PM

When I said my assumption is the group is good players that know how to play their class it was assumed there would be very very little to no wiping happening. I've run 2 charms in groups for 8+ hours multiple times with no singular deaths let alone full group wipes. You apparently have had groups with less skilled players overall and have experienced more wipes than I have. In this situation I can perhaps understand why you'd want extra safety to account for people fucking up. This is a different conversation than the one I was having. If you're playing in a group with people fucking up on a semi regular basis a shaman is probably better. But in that case I'd probably prefer a necro for emergency FD/rez recovery. If someone fucks up royally a shaman isn't gonna be able to save a wipe and your best option will be FDing a necro and EE rezzing the cleric.

That is the other disagreement we have. I have been assuming the group is full of good players too. We are on the same page there. Obviously neither of us can prove which groups had "better" players, so there's not real point in going there.

I have played with highly skilled players and still wiped. In a game with random number generators, you can get unlucky. If you wipe at Fungi King due to a bad string of resists, there is a good chance another group comes in, or your group decides that is a good stopping point.

Ripqozko

09-07-2022, 04:24 PM

When I said my assumption is the group is good players that know how to play their class it was assumed there would be very very little to no wiping happening. I've run 2 charms in groups for 8+ hours multiple times with no singular deaths let alone full group wipes. You apparently have had groups with less skilled players overall and have experienced more wipes than I have. In this situation I can perhaps understand why you'd want extra safety to account for people fucking up. This is a different conversation than the one I was having. If you're playing in a group with people fucking up on a semi regular basis a shaman is probably better. But in that case I'd probably prefer a necro for emergency FD/rez recovery. If someone fucks up royally a shaman isn't gonna be able to save a wipe and your best option will be FDing a necro and EE rezzing the cleric.

a good cleric can make up for bad enchanters anyways, shaman would be almost irrelevant when you have a good cleric that can root/stun and let enchanters do their thing.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 04:26 PM

That is the other disagreement we have. I have been assuming the group is full of good players too.

I have played with highly skilled players and still wiped. In a game with random number generators, you can get unlucky. If you wipe at Fungi King due to a bad string of resists, there is a good chance another group comes in, or your group decides that is a good stopping point.

A good group with 2 enchanters a cleric and a mage or necro isn't wiping at fungi king. Your definition of good is much lower than mine apparently. We have very different thresholds for what qualifies as a good player.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 04:27 PM

A good group with 2 enchanters a cleric and a mage or necro isn't wiping at fungi king. Your definition of good is much lower than mine apparently. We have very different thresholds for what qualifies as a good player.

That is something neither of us can prove without data such as video evidence of how the encounters played out. I am not going to simply assume I am a better player than you to try and win a preference discussion. You should provide me the same courtesy.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 04:30 PM

That is something neither of us can prove without data such as video evidence of how the encounters played out. I am not going to simply assume I am a better player than you to try and win a preference discussion.

I have no interest in proving it to you. I've been there and done it. A good cleric with 2 good encs and a decent/good mage or necro isn't wiping at fungi king or many other lvl 60 camps. Extra safety isn't relevant cause they aren't in danger. If they aren't as good at the game as I was assuming they would be then bringing extra heals might have some value.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 04:31 PM

I have no interest in proving it to you. I've been there and done it. A good cleric with 2 good encs and a decent/good mage or necro isn't wiping at fungi king or many other lvl 60 camps. Extra safety isn't relevant cause they aren't in danger. If they aren't as good at the game as I was assuming they would be then bringing extra heals might have some value.

Agree to disagree. I have been there and done it too, and DPS was never an issue. Nobody can prove who's groups were better without actual evidence, so I don't see any point in going there.

Ripqozko

09-07-2022, 04:44 PM

there hasnt been a point in 700 posts of yours, so we agree there.

Chortles Snortles

09-07-2022, 04:54 PM

https://i.imgur.com/K6edoGT.gif

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 05:54 PM

Agree to disagree. I have been there and done it too, and DPS was never an issue. Nobody can prove who's groups were better without actual evidence, so I don't see any point in going there.

Like I said I have no interest in convincing you or care what you may or may not think. I've experienced it first hand and that's good enough for me. If you've experienced lots of danger and wipes with that group comp then those players weren't at the same level as the players in the groups I've done. It's as simple as that. Lower skill level of players in the group will require more "safety nets" in the form of extra healers/cc.etc

Very simple stuff

Ooloo

09-07-2022, 06:15 PM

Predictable system is sometimes thrown into chaos by RNG; news at 11 yall

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 06:33 PM

Like I said I have no interest in convincing you or care what you may or may not think. I've experienced it first hand and that's good enough for me. If you've experienced lots of danger and wipes with that group comp then those players weren't at the same level as the players in the groups I've done. It's as simple as that. Lower skill level of players in the group will require more "safety nets" in the form of extra healers/cc.etc

Very simple stuff

I disagree, and neither of us have the evidence to definitively prove it. Your word is just as good as mine. Pro players screw up or become victims of RNG too, which I have experienced first hand.

Predictable system is sometimes thrown into chaos by RNG; news at 11 yall

Exactly.

Chortles Snortles

09-07-2022, 06:38 PM

https://i.imgur.com/K6edoGT.gif

cd288

09-07-2022, 07:23 PM

Lmao he’s over 700 posts now pathetic kinda tbh

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 07:24 PM

Lmao he’s over 700 posts now pathetic kinda tbh

You always forget to mention the 800 posts that are just insults and memes which have been accumulated across multiple users. Those are pathetic.

cyxthryth

09-07-2022, 07:43 PM

You always forget to mention the 800 posts that are just insults and memes which have been accumulated across multiple users. Those are pathetic.

The problem that you simply don't seem to understand about you claiming other posters' posts "are just insults and memes" is that you (repeatedly) claiming that it is true simply does not mean that it is true hehe. :) It would have to actually be true, otherwise it is simply an unsubstantiated - and false - claim. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

For one quick example just for discussion's sake: You have provided zero evidence of me trolling yet you have repeatedly called me a troll, while simultaneously ignoring irrefutable facts that I have stated in a civil manner and dodging questions that I have posed directly to you in a civil manner. I submit the post history as evidence, and you have provided zero counter-evidence (and cannot provide any).

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 07:53 PM

If there was one constant in this thread, it was Cyxthryth. All 152 of his posts are literal nonsense. It's fascinating to see him still trying, while being completely ignored by everyone.

cyxthryth

09-07-2022, 08:04 PM

If there was one constant in this thread, it was Cyxthryth. All 152 of his posts are literal nonsense. It's fascinating to see him still trying, while being completely ignored by everyone.

I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting, but "everyone" did not completely ignore me, this would include yourself, as evidenced by multiple posts which you selectively replied to. Despite this, the irrefutable fact (which you cannot refute) is that you have ignored factual statements made by multiple posters - not just myself - as I (and other posters) have pointed out to you multiple times. You have also dodged multiple questions directly posed to you. I present this thread as evidence, and you have not provided (and cannot provide) any counter-evidence.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 08:21 PM

800 posts...across multiple users. Those are pathetic.

Ahhh yes. 800 combined posts between every other poster in the entire thread is VERY PATHETIC. But 700+ posts by 1 stubborn moron is not at all pathetic. Your logic is brilliant as usual.

Pro players screw up...which I have experienced first hand.

Did you just call yourself a pro player? Rofl. You're struggling to believe a group of experienced players consisting of 2 encs 1 clr and 1 nec/mag would have issues killing at fungi king without wiping. Demanding I provide evidence for something that a "pro player" would just intuitively know and would have no need for evidence or testing cause they've done it or something similar dozens of times without breaking a sweat. Is that really some pro player shit to you? Wiping at fungi king? Fucking LOL. That's all the evidence I need my friend. Have fun being the "extra safety utility" in mediocre groups. Those are the only ones that need you.

Protip: Being in a "top guild" doesn't make you a top player. Everyone knows top guilds are jam packed with warmbodies that couldn't play this game well if their life depended on it. They get carried day in and day out by a small handful of actual good players.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 08:32 PM

Ahhh yes. 800 combined posts between every other poster in the entire thread is VERY PATHETIC. But 700+ posts by 1 stubborn moron is not at all pathetic. Your logic is brilliant as usual.

Did you just call yourself a pro player? Rofl. You're struggling to believe a group of experienced players consisting of 2 encs 1 clr and 1 nec/mag would have issues killing at fungi king without wiping. Demanding I provide evidence for something that a "pro player" would just intuitively know and would have no need for evidence or testing cause they've done it or something similar dozens of times without breaking a sweat. Is that really some pro player shit to you? Wiping at fungi king? Fucking LOL. That's all the evidence I need my friend. Have fun being the "extra safety utility" in mediocre groups. Those are the only ones that need you.

Protip: Being in a "top guild" doesn't make you a top player. Everyone knows top guilds are jam packed with warmbodies that couldn't play this game well if their life depended on it. They get carried day in and day out by a small handful of actual good players.

Mega yikes, bragging about how pro you think you are at P99 lol. Nobody cares, and you can't even prove it. Talk is cheap.

I know you want to have the last post because it will make you feel better. I'll let you have it.

cyxthryth

09-07-2022, 08:42 PM

Talk is cheap.

Says the one who single-handedly posted 700+ (irrelevant) replies hehe. :)

Ripqozko

09-07-2022, 08:42 PM

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 09:03 PM

Mega yikes, bragging about how pro you think you are at P99 lol. Nobody cares, and you can't even prove it. Talk is cheap.

I know you want to have the last post because it will make you feel better. I'll let you have it.

I would never call myself a pro player or insinuate that I am as you did. I agree that is mega yikes and cringe. I would say I'm pretty good at everquest? Above average? Not the best or anything but certainly good enough that I'm not worried about wiping at fungi king with a clr+enc+enc+mag/nec. I could (and have) run all day long with no problems in a group like that. It's not even particularly hard or impressive. I'm confused as to why you think this is such a difficult feat to achieve. If that's difficult for you then I understand wanting to bring a shaman instead. It's certainly nowhere near necessary if everyone knows what they're doing though.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 09:24 PM

you do the same, hope that helps.

I didn't say I was pro. Again, people need to read more carefully. I said "pro players make mistakes", and that I have played with highly experienced players. I was saying I have seen highly experienced players screw up firsthand.

Ripqozko

09-07-2022, 09:33 PM

I didn't say I was pro. Again, people need to read more carefully. I said "pro players make mistakes", and that I have played with highly experienced players. I was saying I have seen highly experienced players screw up firsthand.

the data speaks for itself

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 10:03 PM

the data speaks for itself

The post history is clear

DeathsSilkyMist

09-07-2022, 10:03 PM

The post history is clear

It is indeed lol.

PlsNoBan

09-07-2022, 10:04 PM

Please stop calling me names

Chortles Snortles

09-07-2022, 11:59 PM

https://i.imgur.com/gGHFJmu.gif

Jimjam

09-08-2022, 04:14 AM

Pop an ad (paid per view) in that sig and become a pro poster imo.

Toxigen

09-08-2022, 06:07 AM

hes your guildy too, oof

sorry i dont got guild, hope this helps?

Karanis

09-08-2022, 06:12 AM

18698

cd288

09-08-2022, 12:50 PM

It is indeed lol.

Thought you said you were going to let him have the last post and stop replying? Or are you now contradicting yourself over one of your prior statements yet again

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 01:12 PM

Thought you said you were going to let him have the last post and stop replying? Or are you now contradicting yourself over one of your prior statements yet again

I haven't contradicted myself at all. I gave him the last word on his nonsense about him claiming to be a pro P99 player, which is why he believes anybody who group wipes is a noob or something. It's a very silly idea.

You just don't read things, and make up strawmen because you are angry about what I have shown. If you read through the thread I have been consistent. The various strawmen people make and then attack are not what I wrote.

I am not sure where you saw I said I would stop replying to everybody in the thread.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 01:14 PM

I haven't contradicted myself at all. I gave him the last word on his nonsense about him claiming to be a pro P99 player

Weird. He found a loophole to keep posting.

Toxigen

09-08-2022, 01:15 PM

short circuit inc

cd288

09-08-2022, 01:34 PM

Weird. He found a loophole to keep posting.

Lmao

Chortles Snortles

09-08-2022, 01:35 PM

(LOL)

Ripqozko

09-08-2022, 01:44 PM

He will never let anyone get the last word, he wants to win the forums

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 01:45 PM

There's hundreds or perhaps thousands of silent readers DSM has to teach things. The rest of us are trolls so he has an obligation to teach everybody. Don't you guys understand?

Gloomlord

09-08-2022, 02:28 PM

He will never let anyone get the last word, he wants to win the forums

He's only won in his mind.

Objective reality completely disagrees with him.

eqravenprince

09-08-2022, 02:39 PM

Ripqozko

09-08-2022, 02:40 PM

Kich867

09-08-2022, 02:42 PM

Found the VQ guildy

I've been in EC tunnels for the past several days and never saw a guild with the abbreviation VQ, is this a meme or am I missing something?

Toxigen

09-08-2022, 02:42 PM

I've been in EC tunnels for the past several days and never saw a guild with the abbreviation VQ, is this a meme or am I missing something?

Vanquish

(blue)

Ripqozko

09-08-2022, 02:43 PM

I've been in EC tunnels for the past several days and never saw a guild with the abbreviation VQ, is this a meme or am I missing something?

Vanquish, the guild dsm is in, not on green

Kich867

09-08-2022, 02:46 PM

Vanquish, the guild dsm is in, not on green

Ah, gotcha.

Gloomlord

09-08-2022, 02:47 PM

Why don't you people like DSM?

Does this even need to be said at this point?

The man thinks shaman is a better group DPS than mage. He thinks root rotting what his other group members do in a group is logical, and data collected about a solo situation would play out the same as a group situation.

Don't need to be a genius at EverQuest to see how absurd that is.

cd288

09-08-2022, 02:50 PM

Does this even need to be said at this point?

The man thinks shaman is a better group DPS than mage. He thinks root rotting what his other group members do in a group is logical, and data collected about a solo situation would play out the same as a group situation.

Don't need to be a genius at EverQuest to see how absurd that is.

he's also just a generally rude and hypocritical individual who tries to act holier than thou while acting the same way he criticizes others for acting

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 02:53 PM

he's also just a generally rude and hypocritical individual who tries to act holier than thou while acting the same way he criticizes others for acting

This pisses me off so much. He constantly plays the "I'm just posting data gais. Want an honest conversation" card while very very obviously not wanting an honest conversation and not arguing honestly. He's a bigger troll than the rest of us combined.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 03:07 PM

Why don't you people like DSM? From what I've seen his posts are well thought out. Lot of times he posts evidence/logs. And he rarely if ever resorts to insults. A lot of negativity towards him, makes me lose a little faith in humanity.

Thanks for the support.

I can only assume people are angry because they like to have a bit of mystery in Everquest, and when I provide data, it removes said mystery. I understand why that would make people upset. That is not my intent, I just want the truth.

It is much easier to simply claim a Mage has great DPS than to look at the data and realize that isn't really the case. Mages are basically Wizards with a 45 DPS pet instead of ports and CC. A rogue will out DPS them any day of the week, just like they out DPS Wizards. Knowing this probably sucks some of the fun out of the Mage class, so again I understand why people would get upset.

It is the same issue with Shaman DPS. They will continue to claim my data isn't accurate, but they have yet to provide any evidence for this claim. Nor can they, because the videos I provided are how you compare DPS across classes. They don't realize that if you are going off of group data, the data may be skewed. You could easily parse a Shaman's DPS higher than a Mage's DPS in a group where the Mage pet keeps dying due to player mistakes.

he's also just a generally rude and hypocritical individual who tries to act holier than thou while acting the same way he criticizes others for acting

This is unfounded and not supported by my post history. The only time I am rude is after someone starts attacking me. I am allowed to defend myself. I am not hypocritical either. People typically just read my comments incorrectly (on accident or on purpose), and think I said something else. I will 100% admit that I am not perfect, and my posts are not always written in the best manner. But neither are the posts from other people.

You are giving the people who just insult/meme/troll for 800+ posts a pass, while only targeting me. It is obvious you just don't like me specifically for whatever reason. Otherwise you would be criticizing the other posters too.

This pisses me off so much. He constantly plays the "I'm just posting data gais. Want an honest conversation" card while very very obviously not wanting an honest conversation and not arguing honestly. He's a bigger troll than the rest of us combined.

This is a very bad attempt at trying to hide the fact that over half of your total posts on this forum are just posts insulting/memeing me. You are the troll, I am not.

He's only won in his mind.

Objective reality completely disagrees with him.

Finally, I am not sure why you think this. Troxx and PlsNoBan, two people who have been against me from the start, have agreed with what I said on page 2:

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much.

That has been the entire point of my argument. The DPS of the fourth member is irrelevant, and you are simply picking Mage due to preference, not objective fact. The reason why I started looking into DPS data was to show the gap between Mages and Shamans isn't as high as you think in support of this argument. This is still true based on the data given so far. Again, nobody in this thread has provided evidence to prove the videos/logs/math I have provided are incorrect.

Gloomlord

09-08-2022, 03:13 PM

You believe your own sanctimonious hypocrisy, do you?

You're here to cover for your own insecurities as a player, I think.

cd288

09-08-2022, 03:18 PM

You are giving the people who just insult/meme/troll for 800+ posts a pass, while only targeting me. It is obvious you just don't like me specifically for whatever reason. Otherwise you would be criticizing the other posters too.

Who else has nearly 800 posts in this thread? You're literally the only person even close to that number.

Plenty of people have proven you wrong. When they start trolling you is when you refuse to admit that they proved you wrong and then act all sanctimonious toward them. If someone wanted to take the immense amount of time required to go back through your nearly 800 posts in this thread they would see this theme play out: Someone proves you wrong, you refuse to admit it, and when you do that long enough the person starts trolling you because you're being absurd and then you go "see!?!?!?!?! they're just a troll they're irrelevant!!!!!!"

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:19 PM

He's already admitted his preference for shaman is because of "safety" which isn't needed with a group with 2 encs and a cleric that knows what they're doing. He's entitled to his preferences and opinions. Mage (or necro) is objectively a better choice if you're playing with a high quality group of players that has no need for a shaman to correct their mistakes and prevent what otherwise would have been a wipe.

cd288

09-08-2022, 03:19 PM

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:21 PM

Any group with an Ench and a Cleric doesn't need a Shaman. Plain and simple.

They might if the enc and/or cleric aren't super good at the game. It can be helpful if they're prone to fucking up or playing sub-optimally. Which I assume is the case for many of DSM's groups cause he seems hell-bent that his extra safety is needed and super beneficial. That might be his experience. It certainly isn't mine.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 03:23 PM

Who else has nearly 800 posts in this thread? You're literally the only person even close to that number.

Plenty of people have proven you wrong. When they start trolling you is when you refuse to admit that they proved you wrong and then act all sanctimonious toward them. If someone wanted to take the immense amount of time required to go back through your nearly 800 posts in this thread they would see this theme play out: Someone proves you wrong, you refuse to admit it, and when you do that long enough the person starts trolling you because you're being absurd and then you go "see!?!?!?!?! they're just a troll they're irrelevant!!!!!!"

PlsNoBan has 319 posts so far, the vast majority of them are literally just insults and memes.

Troxx has 261 posts so far, the vast majority of them are literally just insults and memes.

Cyxthryth has 151 posts so far, all of them are copy/paste nonsense.

That means the top 3 posters by themselves have around 700 posts that have nothing to do with the conversation, other than trolling. This isn't counting the lower post count people who have been trolling too. That easily makes their numbers over 800. Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better.

Just saying "Plenty of people have proven you wrong" doesn't make that correct. Please show me where you think they did prove me wrong.

I do not concede to trolls and fallacious arguments. That does not make me a troll. The people who have accumulated 800+ posts that are simply insults and memes are. If insults and memes with no context to the discussion aren't in your definition of trolling, you have a strange definition of trolling.

He's already admitted his preference for shaman is because of "safety" which isn't needed with a group with 2 encs and a cleric that knows what they're doing. He's entitled to his preferences and opinions. Mage (or necro) is objectively a better choice if you're playing with a high quality group of players that has no need for a shaman to correct their mistakes and prevent what otherwise would have been a wipe.

They are not objectively better, because you can see the DPS breakpoints with simple math. You prefer to kill things a tiny bit faster, but unless you are playing for extremely long sessions, you won't benefit from the slightly faster kill speeds. You will benefit from having better security when something unexpected happens.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:29 PM

PlsNoBan has 319 posts so far, the vast majority of them are literally just insults and memes.

Troxx has 261 posts so far, the vast majority of them are literally just insults and memes.

Cyxthryth has 151 posts so far, all of them are copy/paste nonsense.

That means the top 3 posters by themselves have around 700 posts that have nothing to do with the conversation, other than trolling. This isn't counting the lower post count people who have been trolling too. That easily makes their numbers over 800. Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better.

Just saying "Plenty of people have proven you wrong" doesn't make that correct. Please show me where you think they did prove me wrong.

I do not concede to trolls and fallacious arguments. That does not make me a troll. The people who have accumulated 800+ posts that are simply insults and memes are. If insults and memes with no context to the discussion aren't in your definition of trolling, you have a strange definition of trolling.

Way way more than 50% of my posts in this thread are not trolling. I'm making legitimate counter points to your nonsense. I may call you names out of frustration but you can't discount the entire post cause I called you a moron in the middle of making a counter point. I fully admit that some of my posts were pure trolling/meme. That was also out of frustration with your density and stubborn headedness and what seems like dishonest arguments and bullshit. Which you have posted 700+ times now as a single user. You have to clump 3+ posters together to match your count. None of which have a "vast majority" of trolling posts. All of them (including myself) have made low effort insult/meme posts here and there. But all of them have and continue to make legit counter points in their posts.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 03:29 PM

Way way more than 50% of my posts in this thread are not trolling. I'm making legitimate counter points to your nonsense. I may call you names out of frustration but you can't discount the entire post cause I called you a moron in the middle of making a counter point. I fully admit that some of my posts were pure trolling/meme. That was also out of frustration with your density and stubborn headedness and what seems like dishonest arguments and bullshit. Which you have posted nearly 800 times now as a single user. You have to clump 3+ posters together to match your count. None of which have a "vast majority" of trolling posts. All of them (including myself) have made low effort insult/meme posts here and there. But all of them have and continue to make legit counter points in their posts.

You should really look back into your post history. Most of your posts are just insults or memes, and have no context to the discussion. Being mad because someone disagrees with you is not justification for mass trolling in a thread that isn't in RnF.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:30 PM

THE POST HISTORY IS CLEAR

Another high quality DSM post that isn't trolling at all

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 03:32 PM

THE POST HISTORY IS CLEAR

Another high quality DSM post that isn't trolling at all

It is true though. You can't hide your post history, which is 300+ posts of insults/memes/trolling, with a small sprinkle of posts that actually address the conversation directly.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:34 PM

It is true though. You can't hide your post history, which is 300+ posts of insults/memes/trolling, with a small sprinkle of posts that actually address the conversation directly.

Disagree. People can see my multitude of posts clearly describing my points and why I think you were wrong and continue to be wrong. Post history is clear. I'm not ashamed of mixing in some memes and name calling here and there when I felt it appropriate. At least I can admit it instead of acting self righteous and pretending I don't like some of us :)

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 03:35 PM

Disagree. People can see my multitude of posts clearly describing my points and why I think you were wrong and continue to be wrong. Post history is clear. I'm not ashamed of mixing in some memes and name calling here and there when I felt it appropriate.

Just looking through your post history and searching for "aut", you have used the word "autism" or "autistic" in 50 out of your last 300 posts in your first sentence as a derogatory remark. That means at least 1 out of 6 posts you have done in this thread are simply insults by doing a 2 minute search. The only reason why this number isn't higher is because you switched to different insults after I called you out on it. You don't even need to dig very far to see how bad your post history is.

If people looked through all of the posts individually instead of just doing a cursory glance, they would see well over half of your posts are just insults and memes.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:46 PM

Just looking through your post history and searching for "aut", you have used the word "autism" or "autistic" in 50 out of your last 300 posts in your first sentence as a derogatory remark. That means at least 1 out of 6 posts you have done in this thread are simply insults by doing a 2 minute search. The only reason why this number isn't higher is because you switched to different insults after I called you out on it. You don't even need to dig very far to see how bad your post history is.

If people looked through all of the posts individually instead of just doing a cursory glance, they would see well over half of your posts are just insults and memes.

I may call you names out of frustration but you can't discount the entire post cause I called you a moron in the middle of making a counter point.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 03:48 PM

If you ended every single post you made with "PlsNoBan is an idiot" it wouldn't invalidate your posts or your points (anymore than you already do anyways). This is an idiotic point your trying to make.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 03:51 PM

The post history is there for anybody who want to take a look. Most of your posts are just memes/insults without any context to the discussion. Insulting me via sarcasm doesn't count as being on topic either.

Being frustrated does not justify trolling for literally hundreds of posts (over half of all posts you have ever posted here).

I do not hold a grudge against you. Please just stick to the conversation at hand next time when you are not in the Rants and Flames section. You will not be called a troll if you don't troll.

cd288

09-08-2022, 03:59 PM

PlsNoBan has 319 posts so far, the vast majority of them are literally just insults and memes.

Troxx has 261 posts so far, the vast majority of them are literally just insults and memes.

Cyxthryth has 151 posts so far, all of them are copy/paste nonsense.

That means the top 3 posters by themselves have around 700 posts that have nothing to do with the conversation, other than trolling. This isn't counting the lower post count people who have been trolling too. That easily makes their numbers over 800. Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better.

Just saying "Plenty of people have proven you wrong" doesn't make that correct. Please show me where you think they did prove me wrong.

I do not concede to trolls and fallacious arguments. That does not make me a troll. The people who have accumulated 800+ posts that are simply insults and memes are. If insults and memes with no context to the discussion aren't in your definition of trolling, you have a strange definition of trolling.

Ok so, just to re-confirm, you can't point to a single solo poster who has 800 posts in a single thread the way you do? Got it. Thank you for confirming.

There were plenty of posts in the early days of the thread proving you wrong. And thank you again for proving my whole point here: When people prove you wrong and eventually just start trolling you because you refuse to admit it, you just start going "see!?!?! they're trolls". And this is a trend in other threads you're involved in; with all do respect you seem immature, you get obsessive about admitting you were incorrect about something...you just can never do it and you will die on the hill just to avoid admitting you were incorrect about something (that's like something my 6 year old cousin would do).

You can't really complain about trolling when those same people proved you wrong plenty of times and ONLY started trolling you once you just relentlessly refused to accept you are incorrect.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 04:02 PM

Ok so, just to re-confirm, you can't point to a single solo poster who has 800 posts in a single thread the way you do? Got it. Thank you for confirming.

There were plenty of posts in the early days of the thread proving you wrong. And thank you again for proving my whole point here: When people prove you wrong and eventually just start trolling you because you refuse to admit it, you just start going "see!?!?! they're trolls". And this is a trend in other threads you're involved in; with all do respect you seem immature, you get obsessive about admitting you were incorrect about something...you just can never do it and you will die on the hill just to avoid admitting you were incorrect about something (that's like something my 6 year old cousin would do).

You can't really complain about trolling when those same people proved you wrong plenty of times and ONLY started trolling you once you just relentlessly refused to accept you are incorrect.

200+ posts of just memes/insults on a single user is not immature and obsessive? This is why you clearly have a double standard.

You need to show where you think I have been proven wrong. Otherwise I could say you were proven wrong and we would be at an impasse.

The problem here is you assume that you are correct, and thus I should admit to being wrong. That isn't how this works. I am not going to concede simply because people keep yelling for me to do it. You need to prove I am wrong. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums.

cd288

09-08-2022, 04:06 PM

200+ posts of just memes/insults on a single user is not immature and obsessive about admitting they were incorrect? This is why you clearly have a double standard.

You need to show where you think I have been proven wrong. Otherwise I could say the same thing and we would be at an impasse.

Once again for the people in the back: They aren't incorrect. They proved you wrong. You refused to admit it so the people who proved you wrong started trolling you over your immature stubbornness.

You then used that as a way to try to discredit them and basically render anything they've said meaningless because "see they're trolls". And like I said before, you never admit you're incorrect. It's a theme with you.

Lmao and now the guy who never admits when he's wrong is going "show me where I've been proven wrong" as though it will work to show him the countless posts in the thread where he was proven wrong. If that was capable of working we wouldn't be here in the first place because you would have admitted you're wrong, which you're unable to ever do. The fact that I just had to explain that is simply astounding lol.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 04:08 PM

Once again for the people in the back: They aren't incorrect. They proved you wrong. You refused to admit it so the people who proved you wrong started trolling you over your immature stubbornness.

You then used that as a way to try to discredit them and basically render anything they've said meaningless because "see they're trolls". And like I said before, you never admit you're incorrect. It's a theme with you.

Lmao and now the guy who never admits when he's wrong is going "show me where I've been proven wrong" as though it will work to show him the countless posts in the thread where he was proven wrong. If that was capable of working we wouldn't be here in the first place because you would have admitted you're wrong, which you're unable to ever do. The fact that I just had to explain that is simply astounding lol.

I didn't discredit anyone. They did it themselves by posting nothing but insults and memes for 200+ posts per user. That is trolling, and I am simply pointing it out.

You can keep saying I am wrong, but "I am right and you are wrong" is not a valid argument. Yelling it over and over again isn't going to prove that I am wrong.

I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums. You just conveniently ignore that to further your narrative.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 04:09 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 04:11 PM

Sometimes you say shit that is so shockingly stupid that there isn't a good way to respond without coming off as a troll. Cd288 makes an excellent point. Nobody started out trolling. Your absurd behavior and the way you argue brings it out cause there's no other way to express how ridiculous you're being. You're almost forcing people into trolling with your behavior then going "I can't believe everyone is just trolls!" Rofl. It's a failure of a strategy. People can see right through it.

You can check the post history. I didn't start throwing out insults when I disagreed with posters. I really don't understand why you think this strategy of lying about the post history is going to work, when anybody can look at the first 30 pages of the thread.

That is a really sad excuse to say that I am "forcing" you to write hundreds of troll posts. It is not standard practice to troll people you disagree with.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 04:14 PM

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 04:15 PM

It is not standard practice to troll people you disagree with.

You new to the internet?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 04:19 PM

The post history is clear. Your stupidity and stubbornness forces troll behavior cause nothing else gets through your thick skull.

I'll repeat it just in case it hasn't been said before: The post history is clear.

P.S. The post history is clear

You new to the internet?

Thank you for admitting (yet again) you are a troll, and will resort to trolling when you don't get your way.

I sincerely hope you change this when posting outside of RnF. It will be better for everyone, yourself included.

Gloomlord

09-08-2022, 04:31 PM

No, people don't usually "troll" people they disagree with.

They "troll" some psychotic man-child -- like you...

You think with this many people united against you; you might just start asking yourself: "Am I really correct here?"

You may have had a point by saying "argumentum ad populum", if it weren't for the fact this isn't even controversial. Mage is, and deserves being, a better DPS class than shaman.

Why is this up for debate anymore? Just hang up your hat and leave already.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 04:32 PM

https://i.imgur.com/f9ulUS3.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 04:41 PM

Mage is, and deserves being, a better DPS class than shaman.

I think this is why you disagree with me. You said something similar earlier. It sounds like you feel Mages should out DPS Shamans. Therefore you want to argue against anything that goes against this narrative. I am not trying to ruin your fun of the Mage class. I just want people to know how P99 works as of today. Wizards are also supposed to be a DPS class, but everybody agrees they don't end up fulfilling that role very well, due to mana issues. They are still great when you need to burst something down quickly, such as bosses on a raid, but their sustained DPS in a group setting over an hour is low.

Gloomlord

09-08-2022, 05:19 PM

Notice how I said "Mage is"?

They are a better DPS class. End of story.

The fact I said they "deserve being better" is just me reiterating just how utterly insane you are.

Forget insults. You deserve to be slapped in the face for your stupidity.

Gloomlord

09-08-2022, 05:25 PM

I don't even play mage. They're just a boring version of necromancer, to me.

That doesn't mean they aren't DPS machines, though.

Karanis

09-08-2022, 06:10 PM

18704

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 08:24 PM

For all the silent readers that don't want to review the very clear post history and haven't kept caught up on this thread here's a summary:

DSM plays in bad groups that wipe a lot so he thinks a group with 2 encs and a cleric needs a shaman for "safety" to help correct mistakes and prevent wipes. Everyone else knows this group played correctly doesn't need extra heals or shaman utility and just intuitively knows mage is a better filler for the last slot of the group. No amount of data or posting the same thing over and over again changes this. Nor any amount of pretending you are and/or play with "pro players" that make mistakes and wipe all the time. The post history is clear. DSM is wrong and everyone knows it except DSM. Now he's playing the "you guys are just big meanies that call me names and troll" card repeatedly. While hilariously trying to group 3-8 posters together to get anywhere near his personal post count in this thread and try to discredit them for posting a lot and not acknowledging that he's posted more than 2x anybody else. The last resort of a desperate clown that knows he lost the argument and has nothing better to say but refuses to admit defeat. He could've ended this days ago if he went and got relevant data to back his claims but the problem is he can't do that because that relevant data would disprove his claims. So he'll just keep restating irrelevant data and napkin math to try to prove a point with shoddy evidence. Also not that it has to be said but just in case anyone was confused by the ravings of a lunatic: Enchanters solo better than non heavily twinked warriors starting at lvl 12 and forever beyond that.

Post history is clear. DSM loses and he loses no matter how many times anybody calls him names. The post history is very clear on this.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 08:27 PM

For all the silent readers that don't want to review the very clear post history and haven't kept caught up on this thread here's a summary:

DSM plays in bad groups that wipe a lot so he thinks a group with 2 encs and a cleric needs a shaman for "safety" to help correct mistakes and prevent wipes. Everyone else knows this group played correctly doesn't need extra heals or shaman utility and just intuitively knows mage is a better filler for the last slot of the group. No amount of data or posting the same thing over and over again changes this. Nor any amount of pretending you are and/or play with "pro players" that make mistakes and wipe all the time. The post history is clear. DSM is wrong and everyone knows it except DSM. Now he's playing the "you guys are just big meanies that call me names and troll" card repeatedly. While hilariously trying to group 3-8 posters together to get anywhere near his personal post count in this thread and try to discredit them for posting a lot and not acknowledging that he's posted more than 2x anybody else. The last resort of a desperate clown that knows he lost the argument and has nothing better to say. He could've ended this days ago if he went and got relevant data to back his claims but the problem is he can't do that because that relevant data would disprove his claims. So he'll just keep restating irrelevant data and napkin math to try to prove a point with shoddy evidence. Also not that it has to be said but just in case anyone was confused by the ravings of a lunatic: Enchanters solo better than non heavily twinked warriors starting at lvl 12 and forever beyond that.

Post history is clear. DSM loses and he loses no matter how many times anybody calls him names. The post history is very clear on this.

You have already admitted to being a troll, and this nonsense is simply more trolling.

The post history is clear. Your stupidity and stubbornness forces troll behavior cause nothing else gets through your thick skull.

I'll repeat it just in case it hasn't been said before: The post history is clear.

P.S. The post history is clear

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 08:29 PM

You have already admitted to being a troll, and this nonsense is simply more trolling.

Another false allegation. I'm simply teaching the mass crowd of silent readers the history of this thread. The post history is very clear.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 08:31 PM

Another false allegation. I'm simply teaching the mass crowd of silent readers the history of this thread. The post history is very clear.

Careful, you are getting dangerously close to Cyxthryth levels of nonsense posting. A clear sign of desperation.

PlsNoBan

09-08-2022, 08:32 PM

Now he's playing the "you guys are just big meanies that call me names and troll" card repeatedly....The last resort of a desperate clown that knows he lost the argument and has nothing better to say but refuses to admit defeat.

Chortles Snortles

09-08-2022, 08:50 PM

https://i.imgur.com/O9NQ5dz.gif

Karanis

09-08-2022, 09:20 PM

18706

Cen

09-08-2022, 10:52 PM

Shaman, Necromancer, Mage, Enchanter would be so comfy with big heals, lots of pets, only need 1 charm slot from mob pulls, and nobody's skills steps on each other in terms of overwrites, etc

DeathsSilkyMist

09-08-2022, 11:04 PM

Chortles Snortles

09-08-2022, 11:40 PM

https://i.imgur.com/O9NQ5dz.gif

Gloomlord

09-09-2022, 12:51 AM

Shaman, Necromancer, Mage, Enchanter would be so comfy with big heals, lots of pets, only need 1 charm slot from mob pulls, and nobody's skills steps on each other in terms of overwrites, etc

But we're talking the best of the best, here.

The group you described is the ultimate lazy man comp.

2-3 enchanter and/or 1 mage and 1 cleric is the ultimate sweaty tryhard comp.

cd288

09-09-2022, 11:11 AM

Toxigen

09-09-2022, 11:30 AM

how the fuck is this thread still going?

blistig pls nuke this thing from orbit

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 11:39 AM

Thank you for the succinct and helpful summary

I think maybe we should all just add DSM to our ignore list and carry on discussing without him lol. Although the dude might go insane if he knows that no one is reading his novel length posts about how he's the only one who is right

Someone is really salty they lost the debate. Agreeing with nonsense is silly.

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 11:49 AM

Someone is really salty they lost the debate. Agreeing with nonsense is silly.

You lost posting 700 times and refusing to stop until you have last word, hope that helps

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 11:55 AM

You lost posting 700 times and refusing to stop until you have last word, hope that helps

There are 800+ posts of just insults and memes from other users because people can't admit to being wrong, or have a civil conversation. Your own posts are included in this count. Hope this helps.

The real summary of the thread is everybody has agreed that in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, the DPS of the fourth member is irrelevant.

When comparing Mages to Shamans, everybody has agreed the only benefit you get from a Mage is a little more DPS and CoTH if you need it.

At this point it is simply preference whether you prefer a small boost in DPS and CoTH over a Shamans broad toolkit that increases safety and opens up more camps. When looking at DPS break points, the extra DPS a Mage provides over a Shaman isn't really enough to get you additional spawns unless you play for long sessions. The difference in kill speed between 200 DPS and 230 DPS on Fungi King is 89 seconds vs. 77 seconds. For 12 seconds to actually give you another Fungi King spawn, you would need to kill Fungi King/PH 150 times in a single session.

eqravenprince

09-09-2022, 12:18 PM

I don't even know why people want a cleric in the group. Isn't a shaman's healing good enough in an all caster group?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 12:21 PM

I don't even know why people want a cleric in the group. Isn't a shaman's healing good enough in an all caster group?

The main reason why you would want a Cleric is because charmed pets have a lot of HP in later levels. The level 49 Sebilis mob I was testing DPS on has at least 8000 HP. Having CH is really convenient for healing a pet quickly. Also, Torporing a pet will slow the pet, so they deal less damage. Torpor does work fine on healing the casters, since they do not melee the mobs anyway. The slow is irrelevant.

I agree with you though, you could probably just have a pocket cleric sitting around for Res and CH when needed. Just have the Shaman swap to the Cleric so the Enchanters don't lose their pets.

OP doesn't have a cleric in his group, he has a Necro and a Shaman. That will be good enough for any normal healing situation. It doesn't take long to heal a pet with Torpor or Necro heals in-between pulls, or waiting for respawns. If you are close to the mobs respawn point, you could also just break charm, lull, mem blur, and let the pet heal itself.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 12:28 PM

There are 800+ posts of just insults and memes from other users

Lol he's lumping posters together and attacking their post count again while ignoring his own being over 2x anyone else

https://i.imgur.com/pSnsX6N.gif

cd288

09-09-2022, 12:30 PM

Someone is really salty they lost the debate. Agreeing with nonsense is silly.

Do you like Trump? Because the only other person I know who like yourself can absolutely never admit when he's wrong is him.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 12:30 PM

Lol he's lumping posters together and attacking their post count again while ignoring his own being over 2x anyone else

I would much rather have 800 posts trying to have a civil discussion than 300 posts of just insults and memes. Throwing a temper tantrum because someone disagrees with you is just silly.

cd288

09-09-2022, 12:31 PM

Lol he's lumping posters together and attacking their post count again while ignoring his own being over 2x anyone else

https://i.imgur.com/pSnsX6N.gif

Yup that's the most absurd thing in this whole thread lol

"I have no life and posted 800 times because I'm too immature to admit when I'm wrong, but look if I add up the posts of like 5 other people they have the same number of posts as I do in this thread!"

cd288

09-09-2022, 12:31 PM

I would much rather have 800 posts trying to have a civil discussion than 300 posts of just insults and memes. Throwing a temper tantrum because someone disagrees with you is just silly.

Says the guy who posted 800 times because he doesn't like being wrong? That sounds like a pretty big temper tantrum to me....

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 12:32 PM

Yup that's the most absurd thing in this whole thread lol

"I have no life and posted 800 times because I'm too immature to admit when I'm wrong, but look if I add up the posts of like 5 other people they have the same number of posts as I do in this thread!"

Says the guy who posted 800 times because he doesn't like being wrong? That sounds like a pretty big temper tantrum to me....

You have over 300 posts yourself of just insults and memes. I know you want to try and hide this, but you can't. You look much worse. Trolling people who disagree with you is not how you have a conversation.

You forget that I am conversing with multiple people at the same time, so of course my post count is relative to the top posters. The top posters who are directly talking to me have a larger combined post count than myself, and the vast majority of said posts are just memes and insults.

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 12:35 PM

We are definitely making it to 300

cd288

09-09-2022, 12:35 PM

You have over 300 posts yourself of just insults and memes. I know you want to try and hide this, but you can't. You look much worse. Trolling people who disagree with you is not how you have a conversation.

I have 48 posts in this thread...

Now 49 including this one.

Misinformation/exaggeration and incorrect statements from DSM of all people!?!? Color me shocked!!!

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 12:35 PM

"Look at these 7 posters that combined posted a bunch of times. What a bunch of assholes!" - Guy who posted 2x more than any other poster

Just shut the fuck up already DSM. You are and continue to be the biggest troll here and act like you aren't. How any fucking guild on this server could stomach having your name wear their tag blows my mind.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 12:36 PM

There are 800+ posts of just insults and memes from other users because people can't admit to being wrong, or have a civil conversation. Your own posts are included in this count. Hope this helps.

The real summary of the thread is everybody has agreed that in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, the DPS of the fourth member is irrelevant.

When comparing Mages to Shamans, everybody has agreed the only benefit you get from a Mage is a little more DPS and CoTH if you need it.

At this point it is simply preference whether you prefer a small boost in DPS and CoTH over a Shamans broad toolkit that increases safety and opens up more camps. When looking at DPS break points, the extra DPS a Mage provides over a Shaman isn't really enough to get you additional spawns unless you play for long sessions. The difference in kill speed between 200 DPS and 230 DPS on Fungi King is 89 seconds vs. 77 seconds. For 12 seconds to actually give you another Fungi King spawn, you would need to kill Fungi King/PH 150 times in a single session.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 12:37 PM

Just shut the fuck up already DSM. You are and continue to be the biggest troll here and act like you aren't. How any fucking guild on this server could stomach having your name wear their tag blows my mind.

cd288

09-09-2022, 12:38 PM

A third Ench or second cleric always better than Shaman. Sorry you're obsessed with Shamans

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 12:39 PM

1: Mage is a better group DPS class than Shaman
2: Enchanters solo better than Warriors

These statements are not up for debate amongst sane human beings
Why does <Vanquish> allow DSM to be a member?

Imagine being so salty at a conversation on elf forums, you actually change your signature to include the straw men you created in a desperate effort to win a debate (but lost anyway).

There are 800+ posts of just insults and memes from other users because people can't admit to being wrong, or have a civil conversation. Your own posts are included in this count. Hope this helps.

The real summary of the thread is everybody has agreed that in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, the DPS of the fourth member is irrelevant.

When comparing Mages to Shamans, everybody has agreed the only benefit you get from a Mage is a little more DPS and CoTH if you need it.

At this point it is simply preference whether you prefer a small boost in DPS and CoTH over a Shamans broad toolkit that increases safety and opens up more camps. When looking at DPS break points, the extra DPS a Mage provides over a Shaman isn't really enough to get you additional spawns unless you play for long sessions. The difference in kill speed between 200 DPS and 230 DPS on Fungi King is 89 seconds vs. 77 seconds. For 12 seconds to actually give you another Fungi King spawn, you would need to kill Fungi King/PH 150 times in a single session.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 12:44 PM

Imagine being so salty at a conversation on elf forums, you actually change your signature to include the straw men you created in a desperate effort to win a debate (but lost anyway).

Imagine being an enormous troll posting 700+ times and attacking the combined post count of multiple people. I'm not gonna say the A word or the R word but you gotta have some mental issues to make this one of your talking points. It honestly makes you look fucking insane. It's almost as dumb as me saying if I took the username of every other poster here I could prolly spell PlsNoBan and everyone named PlsNoBan is an idiot but completely ignoring the fact that my username is also PlsNoBan. You can't attack people for something then do it (more than 2x more) than anyone else. You fucking baboon.

What's the barrier to entry for <Vanquish> these days? They really taking anyone with a pulse eh?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 12:47 PM

Imagine being an enormous troll posting 700+ times and attacking the combined post count of multiple people. I'm not gonna say the A word or the R word but you gotta have some mental issues to make this one of your talking points. It honestly makes you look fucking insane. It's almost as dumb as me saying if I took the username of every other poster here I could prolly spell PlsNoBan and everyone named PlsNoBan is an idiot but completely ignoring the fact that my username is also PlsNoBan. You can't attack people for something then do it (more than 2x more) than anyone else. You fucking baboon.

What's the barrier to entry for <Vanquish> these days? They really taking anyone with a pulse eh?

Yikes.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 12:57 PM

Yikes.

Couldn't agree more. This thread and every one of your posts in it is a huge yikes.

Still waiting on you to give me the last word as promised.

cd288

09-09-2022, 01:16 PM

Seems he's also starting to shift to the same thing he criticized and ignored Cyx for doing, i.e., copying and pasting the same reply into multiple replies over and over. What a shock

Allishia

09-09-2022, 01:22 PM

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 01:30 PM

cd288

09-09-2022, 01:38 PM

Mages do way more dps then shaman, sorry I didn't read all the 200 pages but I saw somewhere someone said a mage only does a little more dps then shaman... crazy, fluffy alone can wreck rog dps in some areas, combine chain nukes and look out!

Lmao oh man here we go again! A new victim for DSM!

But yeah you are correct. Even just looking at the damage for a water pet (think that's the BS one right?) vs. Shaman pet; then consider that you're churning through mobs so a Shaman's DOTs aren't really useful because they're never running the full damage meanwhile a top level Mage is nuking for 1,024 HP or so plus it's pet destroying (even general pet DPS is higher than a shaman pet at that level I believe, not even considering the big boost for the Mage pet from its backstabs too). Of course, every now and then a class can out-DPS another because it's RNG (that's why DSM has cherry-picked parses), but not consistently.

But again you're dealing with a guy who has like a mental block over admitting when he's been proven wrong multiple times.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 01:40 PM

The current DPS data still shows otherwise. I know people like the idea of the Mage having much higher DPS, but the current difference is 7-30DPS when comparing Mages and Shamans.

Wizards should also be able to out DPS other classes, but they don't.

Allishia

09-09-2022, 01:41 PM

Rofl

Hey rogues have said my pet makes them feel 2nd rate cause lot of times I'll let him off tank andhis innate dmg sheild the mob he is on usually dies before the one that has 3 melee on it :p

I have a 60 shaman too but I've never considered her to be dps...the dots are fun but...mob dead before they even land sometimes lol + I really hate they took away dot messages, it's just not the same without seeing the dmg...

Allishia

09-09-2022, 01:42 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 01:43 PM

Have you met fluffy? He would disagree Mr :)

I have. Troxx's data (and another poster's data) Shows Mage pet DPS with backstab at around 45-50 DPS. Nobody has yet to provide DPS data showing the pet's DPS significantly higher or lower. Shaman pet DPS is around 18, both myself and Troxx have shown this. So the pet difference in DPS is basically 30.

A Rogue with Epic and a good Offhand is doing around 133 DPS.

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 01:44 PM

Yea we def making 300 pages

Allishia

09-09-2022, 01:47 PM

I have. Troxx's data (and another poster's data) Shows Mage pet DPS with backstab at around 45-50 DPS. Nobody has yet to provide DPS data showing the pet's DPS significantly higher or lower. Shaman pet DPS is around 18, both myself and Troxx have shown this. So the pet difference in DPS is basically 30.

A Rogue with Epic and a good Offhand is doing around 133 DPS.

I will parse this tonight Mr, fluffy ain't no joke ok :p

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 01:47 PM

I will parse this tonight Mr, fluffy ain't no joke ok :p

Please do! I have been asking for data for 200+ pages now, and the only thing we get is trolling and memes.

Allishia

09-09-2022, 01:48 PM

I have. Troxx's data (and another poster's data) Shows Mage pet DPS with backstab at around 45-50 DPS. Nobody has yet to provide DPS data showing the pet's DPS significantly higher or lower. Shaman pet DPS is around 18, both myself and Troxx have shown this. So the pet difference in DPS is basically 30.

A Rogue with Epic and a good Offhand is doing around 133 DPS.

133 dps? Wth my rogue has epic and eashen claw, only pulls those numbers with avatar!

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 01:48 PM

133 dps? Wth my rogue has epic and eashen claw, only pulls those numbers with avatar!

I parsed a rogue in Sebilis a week ago or so with Epic and a good offhand. Average DPS was 133.

DPS parsing is going to be a bit lower on raid bosses since they have a lot more defense.

Chortles Snortles

09-09-2022, 01:49 PM

everyone but me is wrong
the thread
(LOL)

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 01:51 PM

everyone but me is wrong
the thread
(LOL)

Please prove me wrong. If you can provide evidence, I will happily say I am wrong. This thread is 200+ pages because people prefer insults and memes over providing data.

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 01:52 PM

Please prove me wrong. If you can provide evidence, I will happily say I am wrong. This thread is 200+ pages because people prefer insults and memes over providing data.

Remember when ya said you'd give someone the last word, how did that work out

Chortles Snortles

09-09-2022, 01:52 PM

https://i.imgur.com/K7EQ9dz.jpg

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:02 PM

Remember when ya said you'd give someone the last word, how did thar work out

When you can't win a debate with facts and logic, you cling to silly things like this.

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 02:03 PM

When you can't win a debate with facts and logic, you cling to silly things like this.

And you lie, got it

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 02:03 PM

133 dps? Wth my rogue has epic and eashen claw, only pulls those numbers with avatar!

DSM posting questionable information? I'm absolutely shocked tbh. It's funny how people that have lvl 60 mages AND lvl 60 shamans are saying mages are significantly better group DPS and somehow DSM's "data" always says something else. The same DSM that doesn't have a lvl 60 mage.

Is anyone in Vanquish leadership aware of this thread out of curiosity?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:04 PM

And you lie, got it

Reading my post out of context and creating a straw man is not me lying, that is you being silly.

I said I would give PlsNoBan the last word on his silly idea that he is a pro player, and anybody who wipes in a group is a noob. So far I haven't gone back to that point, since it is indeed nonsense.

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 02:06 PM

Reading my post out of context and creating a straw man is not me lying, that is you being silly.

I said I would give PlsNoBan the last word on his silly idea that anybody who wipes in a group is a noob. So far I haven't gone back to that point, since it is indeed nonsense.

Surely in the next 800 posts you will convince everyone

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 02:10 PM

I said I would give PlsNoBan the last word on his silly idea that he is a pro player, and anybody who wipes in a group is a noob. So far I haven't gone back to that point, since it is indeed nonsense.

I know you want to have the last post because it will make you feel better. I'll let you have it.

Strange. You didn't specify that it was the last word on a specific idea in your original post. The post history is clear on this. Your exact quote is above. I suggest you stop posting as to honor your word and give me the last post. This will be best for everyone involved I think.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:16 PM

Strange. You didn't specify that it was the last word on a specific idea in your original post. The post history is clear on this. Your exact quote is above. I suggest you stop posting as to honor your word and give me the last post. This will be best for everyone involved I think.

Lol you didn't quote your own post too, which my post was in direct context to. I know you are desperate to win, so playing semantics with what I said is all you have. This is just desperation, since you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims.

Nobody is 100% perfect on what they post. I didn't include the specifications because I didn't think it was needed. Clearly I was wrong.

cd288

09-09-2022, 02:19 PM

I have. Troxx's data (and another poster's data) Shows Mage pet DPS with backstab at around 45-50 DPS. Nobody has yet to provide DPS data showing the pet's DPS significantly higher or lower. Shaman pet DPS is around 18, both myself and Troxx have shown this. So the pet difference in DPS is basically 30.

A Rogue with Epic and a good Offhand is doing around 133 DPS.

TIL the only DPS that matters between two classes is the DPS their pets do. Got it.

cd288

09-09-2022, 02:20 PM

Surely in the next 800 posts you will convince everyone

I'm not going to lie I almost just spit out my drink when I read this. Well done

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:20 PM

TIL the only DPS that matters between two classes is the DPS their pets do. Got it.

I didn't say that at all. Again, this post was in context to what Allishia said. She was saying Rogues were commenting on how much DPS the pet did. She didn't mention the Mage nuking in the Rogue's comments.

These straw men you create are why this thread is so long. You can't even be bothered to read.

cd288

09-09-2022, 02:24 PM

I didn't say that at all. Again, this post was in context to what Allishia said. She was saying Rogues were commenting on how much DPS the pet did. She didn't mention the Mage nuking in the Rogue's comments.

These straw men you create are why this thread is so long. You can't even be bothered to read.

Sigh. Yeah man but the whole freaking point is that you've been saying Shamans are better DPS than Mages. They are not because it's not just pet DPS that factors into the equation. The thickness of your skull is unreal lol

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:26 PM

Sigh. Yeah man but the whole freaking point is that you've been saying Shamans are better DPS than Mages. They are not because it's not just pet DPS that factors into the equation. The thickness of your skull is unreal lol

The current data says otherwise. The data is not a strawman. If you can provide better data, then the debate would end, one way or another.

I never ignored Mage nuke DPS when looking at the data. I was talking to Allishia's specific point about Pet DPS, not Pet + Mage DPS.

I didn't say better either lol, I said the difference between Shaman DPS and Mage DPS isn't that big. Shamans can match Mage DPS when root/rotting, but that wasn't the primary discussion we were having with the data.

I am simply astounded by how incorrect you are about my argument.

cd288

09-09-2022, 02:34 PM

Dude you provided a parse of you root rotting a single mob solo. It's completely irrelevant to the topic of the thread. Your highest DOT does like 2k damage over 1.8 minutes. You will never hit 2k damage in a 4 person rapidly killing group, especially not if they have two enchanters with charmed mobs mowing stuff down. For the sake of easy math, that fight lasts 30 seconds right...so you do like 600 damage or so with your max DOT plus your mediocre pet DPS.

In that span of time the Mage has probably out DPSed you with just a single 1,024 damage nuke, not to mention the great DPS from its pet.

Not rocket science here man (although maybe it is for you, who knows). Move on.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:35 PM

Toxigen

09-09-2022, 02:49 PM

You just activated DSMs trap card

lmfao

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 02:56 PM

My data says DSM's data is shit

Checkmate

We are at an impasse

The post history is clear

Allishia

09-09-2022, 02:56 PM

I can't wait to get off work, fluffy and I are heading to KC :D

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 02:57 PM

I can't wait to get off work, fluffy and I are heading to KC :D

I am excited too. It is a breath of fresh air to see somebody else willing to back up their point with data.

PatChapp

09-09-2022, 02:58 PM

If I want more dps in a group I would take the mage
If I wanted a useful class overall and didn't care about DPS I would take the shaman.
Hope this helps.

cd288

09-09-2022, 02:59 PM

I did not. You just haven't read anything, and are making stuff up lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E

Where is the root rotting?

Lol so if the group is killing fast you maybe have a chance to get like 3 of your 600ish nukes off. In that time the Mage has out DPSed you with two nukes for over 2k damage, plus their pet doing more DPS than yours.

And again that's assuming you're literally sitting there doing only DPS. Which destroys your whole argument that a Shaman is more beneficial to the group because of all the non-DPS things it does. You can't do more DPS than the Mage regardless, but you can't even come close unless you're burning all your mana to chain nuke instead of any other spells that you claim are so much more valuable to, say, an Ench/Ench/Cleric group than just having a Mage's great DPS would be.

So basically, to summarize everything here, the overall argument ends up being "On a Shaman I can do close to the DPS a Mage can as long as I'm just chain nuking with my Ice Strike and not doing anything else."

Good job!

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:00 PM

I can't wait to get off work, fluffy and I are heading to KC :D

Can you provide the raw log data too?

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:03 PM

I am excited

Careful DSM might get erect if you post too many lines of a log for him to napkin math and try to mental gymnastics it into somehow proving his point

Allishia

09-09-2022, 03:05 PM

Can you provide the raw log data too?

Yes I can

Also I don't think any mages use the 59 nuke. It's too slow cast. I use the fast cast firebolt that's 450 dd. You can chain nukes that Soo fast!

Scars of Sigil and I usually alternate it with velk boot clicky for easy sustainable dps. Velk boot, them scars, then velk etc

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:08 PM

DSM why don't you to go KC and group with Allishya for an hour? Parse it and report back. That way we can have ACTUAL data about what works better in a real world situation. Instead of sitting here like a moron napkin mathing hypothetical scenarios which always tend to favor your argument? No root rotting just sit there and DD nuke stuff thats going to die too fast for DoTs. Put your money where your enormous mouth is. Let us know how it goes buddy.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:11 PM

Lol so if the group is killing fast you maybe have a chance to get like 3 of your 600ish nukes off. In that time the Mage has out DPSed you with two nukes for over 2k damage, plus their pet doing more DPS than yours.

3x Ice Strike would be 2025 damage by themselves, not including pet DPS.

2x Shock of Steel would be 1650 damage. You wouldn't use your 1k damage nuke. It is less mana efficient, and Mages can't Torpor back their mana.

And again that's assuming you're literally sitting there doing only DPS. Which destroys your whole argument that a Shaman is more beneficial to the group because of all the non-DPS things it does. You can't do more DPS than the Mage regardless, but you can't even come close unless you're burning all your mana to chain nuke instead of any other spells that you claim are so much more valuable to, say, an Ench/Ench/Cleric group than just having a Mage's great DPS would be.

So basically, to summarize everything here, the overall argument ends up being "On a Shaman I can do close to the DPS a Mage can as long as I'm just chain nuking with my Ice Strike and not doing anything else."

I am glad you figured out the point.

If your group needs more DPS in a specific situation, the Shaman can switch to DPS mode and provide DPS that isn't too far off from a Mage.

When your group needs safety and utility, the Shaman can switch into that mode and provide it too.

The Mage only has a DPS mode, which isn't leaps and bounds ahead of a Mage, according to the current data.

The thing people don't realize is DPS has breakpoints. A group with 2x Enchanter pets is doing 170 DPS according to Troxx's data. These are level 47 mobs with haste, a torch, and dual wield capabilities. If a Shaman is providing 220 DPS, and a Mage is providing 250 DPS, the difference is 30 DPS. When fighting Fungi King, the difference between those two DPS numbers are 17750 / 220 = 80 seconds, and 17750 / 250 = 71 seconds. You are saving 9 seconds on the kill. To get an extra Fungi King spawn at that rate, you would need to kill him or the PH 1800 seconds (30 minutes) / 9 seconds = 200 times. I don't think anybody is going to sit at Fungi King camp for 100 hours just to get an extra spawn due to their Mage.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:12 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:14 PM

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:15 PM

I can't tonight. But I certainly wouldn't mind doing a separate session another time with Allishia if we can coordinate it!

Convenient. I'm sure you have very important plans tonight and won't be chainposting in this thread all night long.

Toxigen

09-09-2022, 03:15 PM

this is sad

Ripqozko

09-09-2022, 03:16 PM

Convenient. I'm sure you have very important plans tonight and won't be chainposting in this thread all night long.

He will never be available during her times

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:16 PM

Convenient. I'm sure you have very important plans tonight and won't be chainposting in this thread all night long.

I am not going to change my plans just to play Everquest. It isn't like we planned this out ahead of time, it was brought up today.

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:17 PM

Well you forget though, the other day he said anything but solo DPS is irrelevant as data because there's too many variables to account for otherwise

Toxigen

09-09-2022, 03:17 PM

this fuckin guy acting like dps doesnt matter because you wont get an extra fungi king for 100 hours

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:18 PM

this fuckin guy acting like dps doesnt matter because you wont get an extra fungi king for 100 hours

What benefit are you getting from killing the mob 9 seconds faster if your group is good enough to not wipe anyway? The benefit to heavily increasing DPS would be to get more kills in the same session. If you aren't achieving that goal, a DPS increase is irrelevant.

Toxigen

09-09-2022, 03:22 PM

What benefit are you getting from killing the mob 9 seconds faster if your group is good enough to not wipe anyway? The benefit to heavily increasing DPS would be to get more kills in the same session. If you aren't achieving that goal, a DPS increase is irrelevant.

9 seconds is awfully close to the time of a complete heal cast

you're not considering the myriad of variables that happen during any given group....and you cannot paper napkin math your way out of it

you're so fucking obtuse its ridiculous

the fact of the matter is: a mage is a far better 4th to an enc / enc / cleric group than a shaman....you could go on for another 500 replies you aren't convincing anyone otherwise

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:22 PM

If your group is good enough to not wipe and just keep chain killing then DPS will always be better.

If your group is not that good and you want less DPS and more buffs and things then you would take the Shaman. But as I said above if your group is totally fine to not wipe then the only real benefit to bringing someone else on is to maximize DPS even further...so it's basically DPS class or nothing, not Shaman vs DPS class lol

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:23 PM

9 seconds is awfully close to the time of a complete heal cast

you're not considering the myriad of variables that happen during any given group....and you cannot paper napkin math your way out of it

you're so fucking obtuse its ridiculous

And you are not considering a Shaman is a healer and a slower, so you are getting more heals and a faster slower lol. It isn't like this stuff is happening in a vaccum. The Shaman can Malo -> Malosini to land slow faster (which saves on damage), and it also allows the Enchanters to focus on keeping their pets under control during the fight. A Shaman can also do healing if necessary.

If your group is good enough to not wipe and just keep chain killing then DPS will always be better.

If your group is not that good and you want less DPS and more buffs and things then you would take the Shaman. But as I said above if your group is totally fine to not wipe then the only real benefit to bringing someone else on is to maximize DPS even further...so it's basically DPS class or nothing, not Shaman vs DPS class lol

Not unless you can get more spawns out of it. Everquest doesn't have fast spawning mobs, you are restricted by respawn times. DPS would indeed matter more if Everquest was a game where mobs respawned every minute.

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:31 PM

And you are not considering a Shaman is a healer and a slower, so you are getting more heals and a faster slower lol. It isn't like this stuff is happening in a vaccum. The Shaman can Malo -> Malosini to land slow faster (which saves on damage), and it also allows the Enchanters to focus on keeping their pets under control during the fight. A Shaman can also do healing if necessary.

Not unless you can get more spawns out of it. Everquest doesn't have infinitely spawning mobs, you are restricted by respawn times.

How many of the high level dungeons do you see where finding spawns is ever an issue? Lol. I'll answer that for you: 1. KC. Everywhere else is basically dead except in some dungeons you'll find a couple camps here and there with a couple mobs in them that someone is grinding on. Occasionally Seb and Velks get some pugs going that make a dent in mob availability, but rarely.

Your argument is just inapplicable to P99.

Your argument is further inapplicable because, again, if the group is good enough to not wipe without the Shaman then, again, DPS is the only thing that you should consider taking on. The Shaman brings nothing to the table for a group that is already completely good enough to chain kill and never wipe...the only possible benefit to the 4th member is to get as much additional DPS as possible.

To address your response to Toxigen, you don't need Shaman slows you already have two Enchanters. You don't need Shaman root, you already have Mez and root covered. You don't need Shaman's extra healing, the Cleric with max mana regen buff on is sufficient and if they were ever a little low just break charm and memblur and let that mob heal to full in like 3 seconds. Your Shaman is useless for a chain killing group that is good enough to not wipe.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:33 PM

How many of the high level dungeons do you see where finding spawns is ever an issue? Lol. I'll answer that for you: 1. KC. Everywhere else is basically dead except in some dungeons you'll find a couple camps here and there with a couple mobs in them that someone is grinding on. Occasionally Seb and Velks get some pugs going that make a dent in mob availability, but rarely.

Your argument is just inapplicable to P99.

Your argument is further inapplicable because, again, if the group is good enough to not wipe without the Shaman then, again, DPS is the only thing that you should consider taking on. The Shaman brings nothing to the table for a group that is already completely good enough to chain kill and never wipe...the only possible benefit to the 4th member is to get as much additional DPS as possible.

You do realize higher level camps generally don't chain pull mobs, right? You aren't chain pulling mobs while doing Fungi King, for example. Saving 9 seconds on killing Fungi King/PH is irrelevant.

If you are claiming that a group of four level 60s is just killing trash in Sebilis Disco or something, then that is easy enough for the Shaman to root/rot while the Enchanters are killing something else, for higher DPS if that's what the group wants. If the group is good enough to never wipe, the Shaman can easily handle root/rotting.

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:35 PM

You do realize higher level camps generally don't chain pull mobs, right? You aren't chain pulling mobs while doing Fungi King, for example.

If you are claiming that a group of four level 60s is just killing trash in Sebilis Disco or something, then that is easy enough for the Shaman to root/rot while the Enchanters are killing something else, for higher DPS if that's what the group wants. If the group is good enough to never wipe, the Shaman can easily handle root/rotting.

Lmao dude the excuses you make up and the ways you change your argument whenever someone proves you wrong are insane. You are the king of moving goalposts and shifting narrative...you should go be a politician

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:37 PM

Lmao dude the excuses you make up and the ways you change your argument whenever someone proves you wrong are insane. You are the king of moving goalposts and shifting narrative...you should go be a politician

It's not excuses at all lol. The only people who keep changing their arguments are people like you.

You can't have it every single way at the same time. You aren't chain pulling mobs while doing Fungi King camp. If you are chain pulling mobs, you are in a place like Velks or Sebilis, where a Shaman can solo a good chunk of the zone themselves with just root/rotting.

If a group cares about DPS, why wouldn't they let a Shaman deal more DPS via root rotting when chain pulling? They never wipe right?

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:42 PM

It's not excuses at all lol. The only people who keep changing their arguments are people like you.

You can't have it every single way at the same time. You aren't chain pulling mobs while doing Fungi King camp. If you are chain pulling mobs, you are in a place like Velks or Sebilis, where a Shaman can solo a good chunk of the zone themselves with just root/rotting.

If a group cares about DPS, why wouldn't they let a Shaman deal more DPS via root rotting when chain pulling? They never wipe right?

When the hell did I bring up Fungi camp in the discussion we're having right now? Yet again, do you see how you change the narrative?

If you have Ench/Ench/Cleric EXPing and they are doing just fine and won't wipe and they're chain killing mobs, and you said hey do we want max DPS or do we want someone who will do less DPS but has utility to keep us from wiping? The only answer that makes sense is DPS. The Shaman brings no value to the table there because it can't match the DPS of a Mage (or another Enchanter); the only value the Shaman would bring is if you think the group could wipe and therefore the extra healing might be helpful.

If you're not gonna wipe in this scenario the only benefit at all to a 4th group member is getting the most DPS possible to kill even quicker, because you don't need anything else. You technically don't even need that 4th group member, but if you absolutely were required to take one then it's max DPS all the way.

Also, did you really just propose having the Shaman sit in the group and root rot? So it kills a mob on it's own like every 5 minutes or so after its DOTS burn all its HP away? Wow man! That would be such a huge benefit to a chain pulling EXP group!

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:44 PM

"Hurrdurr extra dps isn't important but a redundant slow and redundant heals are VERY IMPORTANT. Also let me spend 700+ posts trying to convince you why my dps is almost or as good as a mage. BUT DPS ISN'T IMPORTANT"

Who am I?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:47 PM

When the hell did I bring up Fungi camp in the discussion we're having right now? Yet again, do you see how you change the narrative?

If you have Ench/Ench/Cleric EXPing and they are doing just fine and won't wipe and they're chain killing mobs, and you said hey do we want max DPS or do we want someone who will do less DPS but has utility to keep us from wiping? The only answer that makes sense is DPS. The Shaman brings no value to the table there because it can't match the DPS of a Mage (or another Enchanter); the only value the Shaman would bring is if you think the group could wipe and therefore the extra healing might be helpful.

If you're not gonna wipe in this scenario the only benefit at all to a 4th group member is getting the most DPS possible to kill even quicker, because you don't need anything else.

I didn't say you did. But Fungi King has been part of the discussion for over 100 pages now, and you haven't been reading. It isn't my fault you are lacking in context.

Under this logic, why wouldn't you just bring 4x Enchanters? The reason is simple: because everybody agrees 4x Enchanters would be too hard to play. DPS has diminishing returns.

If your group has 100 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP dies in 80 seconds.

If your group has 200 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP dies in 40 seconds.

If your group has 400 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP dies in 20 seconds.

Bringing 2x Enchanters will get your group to 200 DPS already. Bringing 2 more Enchanters gets you to 400 DPS, but only gives you half the benefit you got from the first two (20 seconds vs. 40 seconds), and your chances of wiping increases significantly. This is why people pick the Cleric over the 4th Enchanter. Even though you are losing about 10 seconds per kill by doing this, everybody understands the safety matters more than the 10 seconds. People already understand this subconsciously, which is why they are picking Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:51 PM

DPS has diminishing returns but safety doesn't. Best grp 3 clerics 3 shamans. Very safe DSM logic.

News at 11

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:52 PM

DPS has diminishing returns but safety doesn't. Best grp 3 clerics 3 shamans. Very safe DSM logic.

News at 11

Again, you forget having 2 healers means you can heal two players/pets at the same time. Having the Shaman focus on slowing means the Enchanters can focus on keeping their pets under control and can recover from charm breaks faster if they occur while they are attempting to slow the mob.

DPS has breakpoints. Once you hit the optimal breakpoint, DPS has heavy diminishing returns.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:54 PM

Yes and having 3 clerics and 3 shamans means you can heal even more players/pets at the same time! It's super safe and makes a lot of sense if you use DSM logic.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:56 PM

Yes and having 3 clerics and 3 shamans means you can heal even more players/pets at the same time! It's super safe and makes a lot of sense if you use DSM logic.

No, that is another strawman. You want a balanced group that hits the DPS breakpoint necessary for the content at hand, while having good safety too.

Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric has already hit the 200 DPS breakpoint, which is honestly good enough for any content a 4 man group can do. It's easy to run the numbers and see how much time you save after that. It isn't much.

The fourth member is best served as someone who can provide safety, utility, and increased camp options.

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:57 PM

I didn't say you did. But Fungi King has been part of the discussion for over 100 pages now, and you haven't been reading. It isn't my fault you are lacking in context.

Under this logic, why wouldn't you just bring 4x Enchanters? The reason is simple: because everybody agrees 4x Enchanters would be too hard to play. DPS has diminishing returns.

If your group has 100 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP dies in 80 seconds.

If your group has 200 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP dies in 40 seconds.

If your group has 400 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP dies in 20 seconds.

Bringing 2x Enchanters will get your group to 200 DPS already. Bringing 2 more Enchanters gets you to 400 DPS, but only gives you half the benefit you got from the first two (20 seconds vs. 40 seconds), and your chances of wiping increases significantly. This is why people pick the Cleric over the 4th Enchanter. Even though you are losing about 10 seconds per kill by doing this, everybody understands the safety matters more than the 10 seconds. People already understand this subconsciously, which is why they are picking Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric.

You literally just proved my point. The best 4 person group would be ench ench ench cleric. You don’t need a shaman as the 4th because it’s redundant healing and lesser dps is not needed for a group that’s not going to wipe.

We spent all this time just for you to admit that the shaman is not the best choice for the 4th group member lol

cd288

09-09-2022, 03:58 PM

No, that is another strawman. You want a balanced group that hits the DPS breakpoint necessary for the content at hand, while having good safety too.

Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric has already hit the 200 DPS breakpoint, which is honestly good enough for any content a 4 man group can do. It's easy to run the numbers and see how much time you save after that. It isn't much.

The fourth member is best served as someone who can provide safety, utility, and increased camp options.

But you invented a scenario where the group isn’t gonna wipe. Now you’re switching the scenario again because you were wrong lmao

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 03:59 PM

You literally just proved my point. The best 4 person group would be ench ench ench cleric. You don’t need a shaman as the 4th because it’s redundant healing and lesser dps is not needed for a group that’s not going to wipe.

We spent all this time just for you to admit that the shaman is not the best choice for the 4th group member lol

Oh don't worry he'll have some very solid logical data driven reason for why he's still correct

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 03:59 PM

But you invented a scenario where the group isn’t gonna wipe. Now you’re switching the scenario again because you were wrong lmao

Lack of reading. Again. I didn't invent this scenario. PlsNoBan is the guy who keeps claiming a group never wipes lol.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:01 PM

Lack of reading. Again. I didn't invent this scenario. PlsNoBan is the guy who keeps claiming a group never wipes lol.

But surely any further discussion is irrelevant because you already agreed above that the best group is three enchanters and a cleric

So the shaman is irrelevant here. Glad we resolved that!

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:10 PM

The fourth member is best served as someone who can provide safety, utility, and increased camp options.

So... Necromancer? Provides greater safety than you in the form of FD/EE Rez if playing in a bad group that wipes. Can also easily get you to camps not easily reachable via having the whole group die and flop drag them to a camp and rezzing the cleric. If you wipe with a shaman you're still running back from bind. Can also heal and do similar DPS. Provides utility that isn't redundant. Can bring enchanter level additional DPS to the group if undead mobs are available. Not to mention root, mez, twitches, better mana regen without having to canni (and therefore not cast other spells), fear, snare, better pet dps than shaman. List goes on.

If your group with 2 encs and a cleric is in danger of wiping (lol) and safety is actually your concern then necromancer is clearly superior and should be the obvious choice. Yet somehow it still seems to be shaman in your head. I wonder why that is? Maybe something to do with your completely ridiculous and illogical preference for the shaman class in every situation?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:15 PM

So... Necromancer? Provides greater safety than you in the form of FD/EE Rez if playing in a bad group that wipes. Can also easily get you to camps not easily reachable via having the whole group die and flop drag them to a camp and rezzing the cleric. If you wipe with a shaman you're still running back from bind. Can also heal and do similar DPS. Provides utility that isn't redundant. Can bring enchanter level additional DPS to the group if undead mobs are available.

If your group with 2 encs and a cleric is in danger of wiping (lol) and safety is actually your concern then necromancer is clearly superior and should be the obvious choice. Yet somehow it still seems to be shaman in your head. I wonder why that is? Maybe something to do with your completely ridiculous and illogical preference for the shaman class in every situation?

Honestly it depends on the camp at that point. If you want to do Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/X, it would depend on what you want to do. Mage would be better for something like Chardok Royals, where CoTH is necessary. Necro would be better for pulling at Fungi King Camp. Shaman would be better at Ixiblat Fer for the better Malo -> Malosini -> Slow.

If you want everything at once, Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Mage + pocket cleric would be the best. You hit the 200 DPS breakpoint, you have enough utility/safety to do every camp, and the Shaman can swap to the Cleric for res or occasional CH to save the Necro/Mage spell reagents. That is what OP ended up picking, possibly minus the pocket cleric.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:20 PM

No pocket cleric you’re just inventing variables at this point. It’s a 4 person caster only group, if you want a cleric it has to be one of the 4. As you said above the best would be three enchanters and a cleric, zero need for shaman in your own words

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:21 PM

Honestly it depends on the camp at that point. If you want to do Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/X, it would depend on what you want to do. Mage would be better for something like Chardok Royals, where CoTH is necessary. Necro would be better for pulling at Fungi King Camp. Shaman would be better at Ixiblat Fer for the better Malo -> Malosini -> Slow.

If you want everything at once, Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Mage + pocket cleric would be the best. You hit the 200 DPS breakpoint, you have enough utility/safety to do every camp, and the Shaman can swap to the Cleric for res or occasional CH to save the Necro/Mage spell reagents.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:21 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:22 PM

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

Lol this is a very poor representation of what I said.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:22 PM

Nobody said you can't have a pocket Cleric. Please stop making stuff up.

The whole topic of the thread is best 4 person caster group. Now you’re just making up reasons to take the shaman “well you could have a pocket cleric”. If no pocket cleric best group is three enchanters and a cleric, that’s what you said…or should I quote it for you?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:23 PM

The whole topic of the thread is best 4 person caster group. Now you’re just making up reasons to take the shaman “well you could have a pocket cleric”. If no pocket cleric best group is three enchanters and a cleric, that’s what you said…or should I quote it for you?

Where does it say "Best 4 person all caster/priest group without a pocket cleric"?

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:24 PM

Lol this is a very poor representation of what I said.

It's the corner you've backed yourself into. Shaman only makes sense in this group in a very very small group of niche encounters/camps. Sorry this hurts your feelings so badly. Shaman is a GOOD CLASS. You don't have to be so fucking defensive that it's not the best choice for this hypothetical. It'll be okay friend. You can put your head on your pillow tonight and rest easy knowing that shamans are the best ever. Just not for this particular situation.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:24 PM

Where does it say "Best 4 person all caster/priest group without a pocket cleric"?

Holy fucking shit :rolleyes:

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:25 PM

It's the corner you've backed yourself into. Shaman only makes sense in this group in a very very small group of niche encounters/camps. Sorry this hurts your feelings so badly. Shaman is a GOOD CLASS. You don't have to be so fucking defensive that it's not the best choice for this hypothetical. It'll be okay friend. You can put your head on your pillow tonight and rest easy knowing that shamans are the best ever. Just not for this particular situation.

It doesn't hurt me at all. I am not the one with hundreds of meme/insult posts under my belt. That is yourself. I am sorry you don't like the truth about Mage DPS and DPS breakpoints.

Crede

09-09-2022, 04:25 PM

If you want everything at once, Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Mage + pocket cleric would be the best. You hit the 200 DPS breakpoint, you have enough utility/safety to do every camp, and the Shaman can swap to the Cleric for res or occasional CH to save the Necro/Mage spell reagents.

Or just do Cleric/Necro/Enchanter/Mage, as I said on Page 1.

You can hit 200 dps, you have every bit of utility covered. If you need a 2nd slower, give a pet a swarmcaller or a Di`zok Oracle Shillelagh(if it's high enough). The necro can handle backup heals, but in reality the cleric will probably be nuking most of the time.

There's simply no need for a shaman, unless you can name some 4 mannable camp that requires Torpor to be rolling alongside Cheal, which I said on Page 2.

Nothing has changed 200+ posts later hehe.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:25 PM

Where does it say "Best 4 person all caster/priest group without a pocket cleric"?

Ok so assuming no pocket cleric then the best four person group is 3 enchanters and cleric (your words)

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:25 PM

Holy fucking shit :rolleyes:

It’s amazing I got him to make my argument for me so he invents a new variable “WELL IF YOU HAD A POCKET CLERIC” lol

Karanis

09-09-2022, 04:26 PM

Where does it say "Best 4 person all caster/priest group without a pocket cleric"?

18716

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:26 PM

It doesn't hurt me at all.

https://i.imgur.com/UGaxKYm.gif

Karanis

09-09-2022, 04:28 PM

4 person group, the cleric is either in the group as 1 of the 4, or doesn't exist. Where does it say Best 4 person caster/priest group with pocket alts?

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:28 PM

Ok so assuming no pocket cleric then the best four person group is 3 enchanters and cleric (your words)

Honestly my vote is with OP's decision. Necro/Shaman/Enchanter/Mage is the most dynamic group you could make with four players. It allows you to do all the camps a four man group can do while hitting the 200 DPS breakpoint, even without a pocket cleric. The Necromancer can res, and the Shaman/Necro can combat heal the pets. Out of combat you can charm break/lull/memblur to get the mob to fast regen instead of CHing.

Allishia

09-09-2022, 04:29 PM

Lmao y'all are too funny

Karanis

09-09-2022, 04:29 PM

By that logic, one of the members can literally have a geared 60 of every single class to swap in, and at that point it doesn't fucking matter what comp the group has because they can change it.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:30 PM

People already understand this subconsciously, which is why they are picking Enchanter/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:30 PM

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:31 PM

By that logic, one of the members can literally have a geared 60 of every single class to swap in, and at that point it doesn't fucking matter what comp the group has because they can change it.

Yup, because obviously pocket clerics are just as common as having level 60 characters lol. /sarcasm.

I don't think you realize you can have a pocket cleric that is level 49 for the 90% res and Complete Heal. Between four people it wouldn't be tough to level one up during the downtime between groups.

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases?

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Vexenu

09-09-2022, 04:34 PM

DSM, it's over for you, my friend. You've been thoroughly defeated in this thread. Your fat, Ogre corpse lies here disgraced on page 224. Luckily for you, however, I am able to rez you back to the forum index with my pocket Cleric.

Tips appreciated.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:34 PM

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we're in agreement with my previous post then?

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

Karanis

09-09-2022, 04:34 PM

18717

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:35 PM

Okay so we're in agreement with my previous post then?

No, because you didn't read my other points either lol. At least you agree you haven't been reading.

Necro/Enchanter/Mage/Shaman would allow you to do every camp imaginable, while hitting the 200 DPS breakpoint. It is really that simple. I would swap the Mage for another Enchanter if we weren't planning on doing Royals.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:36 PM

DSM let me give you a run down on what happened here once I decided to put in a modicum of effort here (pro tip don’t expose your personality to an experienced attorney it will be used to manipulate you in the argument).

I’ve always though three ench plus cleric is the best. However I know you so I knew I couldn’t jump right to that because you’ll just refuse and it’s like talking to a wall.

So what I did instead was get you embroiled in the debate of mage vs shaman. For the record I still think mage is higher dps than shaman but that wasn’t the main goal of bringing it up today. You’ve shown your personality well enough that it’s easy to manipulate you into making my own argument for me because I know you can’t bear to be wrong so all I had to do was make a slightly wrong argument about the best choice for the 4th char and you would jump all over it and make my argument for me, which is exactly what you did.

I got you embroiled in the mage vs shaman debate so much that you just COULDNT WAIT TO PROVE ME WRONG by jumping in and saying three enchanters and a cleric are the best choice not mage enchanter enchanter cleric. What’s the phrase about winning the battle but losing the war?

I just got you to put my own argument into your mouth and adopt it as your own and admit that the shaman isn’t the best fourth group member option.

This was way too easy lol

Edit: and once you realized your mistake you started introducing this pocket cleric variable to try to save your own ass

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:37 PM

No, because you didn't read my other points either lol. At least you agree you haven't been reading.

Necro/Enchanter/Mage/Shaman would allow you to do every camp imaginable, while hitting the 200 DPS breakpoint. It is really that simple.

You're excluding a cleric to heal the charm pet which would be tanking. You're going to heal it with torpor and slow the biggest source of your DPS? This is even dumber than your enc/enc/shm/clr argument you've been making for 700 posts.

Just fucking give it up already. You fucking lost. Get over it.

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:39 PM

DSM let me give you a run down on what happened here once I decided to put in a modicum of effort here (pro tip don’t expose your personality to an experienced attorney it will be used to manipulate you in the argument).

I’ve always though three ench plus cleric is the best. However I know you so I knew I couldn’t jump right to that because you’ll just refuse and it’s like talking to a wall.

So what I did instead was get you embroiled in the debate of mage vs shaman. For the record I still think mage is higher dps than shaman but that wasn’t the main goal of bringing it up today. You’ve shown your personality well enough that it’s easy to manipulate you into making my own argument for me because I know you can’t bear to be wrong so all I had to do was make a slightly wrong argument about the best choice for the 4th char and you would jump all over it and make my argument for me, which is exactly what you did.

I got you embroiled in the mage vs shaman debate so much that you just COULDNT WAIT TO PROVE ME WRONG by jumping in and saying three enchanters and a cleric are the best choice not mage enchanter enchanter cleric. What’s the phrase about winning the battle but losing the war?

I just got you to put my own argument into your mouth and adopt it as your own and admit that the shaman isn’t the best fourth group member option.

This was way too easy lol

This is just nonsense lol.

Because so many people are talking, I have to have conversations with multiple people at the same time.

If you want to go back to the Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric example, I still say Shaman would be superior over Mage. The Mage allows you to maybe do Chardok Royals with CoTH. The Shaman allows you to do at least Ixiblat Fer + WW Dragons. So far the Shaman wins on camps, wins on utility, and you aren't losing a lot of DPS.

Please just read instead of making these long comments about nothing.

PlsNoBan

09-09-2022, 04:41 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

09-09-2022, 04:42 PM

He's so obsessed with shamans he's suggesting they be part of the best overall 4 man caster group (including 1-60) solely for ixiblat and ww dragons lol.

How can you reason with someone this detached from reality?

I am not. You are simply obsessed with "winning" against me, so you throw out reason and logic. You just want to try and "gotcha" me, and you can't even do that.

cd288

09-09-2022, 04:42 PM

This is just nonsense lol.

Because so many people are talking, I have to have conversations with multiple people at the same time.

If you want to go back to the Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric example, I still say Shaman would be superior over Mage. The Mage allows you to maybe do Chardok Royals with CoTH. The Shaman allows you to do at least Ixiblat Fer + WW Dragons. So far the Shaman wins on camps, wins on utility, and you aren't losing a lot of DPS.

Please just read instead of making these long comments about nothing.

But again I don’t want to go back to that argument. Because that’s not the correct answer. The correct answer is enchanter enchanter enchanter cleric. I just used mage to manipulate you into making the argument about how a third enchanter would be best for me. Which you did.

You said best four person group is 3 enchanters and cleric, which exactly aligns with my true opinion and shows shaman is irrelevant