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Duik
07-15-2024, 09:04 PM
So the sham is torp tanking and either/both/all of the following... spot healing any chanter, malo, root, sunbeam, rotting 3-4 other mobs with epic, AndAnythingElseIHaventThoughtOf.

Chanelling must really be broken if we can be certain of not eating an interupt at an inopportune moment at some point.
With such a central and important group roll what with tanking and dpsing and healing and rooting etc being "ready" could pose a problem.

Is this what dsm is suggesting is the best?

bcbrown
07-15-2024, 09:23 PM
Troxx in your re-read has anyone been receptive towards or in agreement with DSM's pocket thoughts?

Troxx
07-15-2024, 09:32 PM
Troxx in your re-read has anyone been receptive towards or in agreement with DSM's pocket thoughts?

Towards pockets?

Not yet but I’m only on page 250.

Towards shamans being capable of doing any kind of dps remotely resembling mages?

No - none. Not one.

Page 251:

Lmao this is still so amazing. This guy freaked out at everyone about how Shaman does better DPS than Mage. Spent weeks going like "I provided data that Shaman does better DPS than Mage"

Then when Allyshia parsed and her Mage did better DPS, DSM changes the argument to "better DPS is meaningless" and is now pretending like he never argued that Shaman's DPS was better than mage

This is awesome to watch lmao

Here's a brief summary of the past 250 pages:

18760

Awww bless her heart:

I won the parse! :p

DeathsSilkyMist
07-15-2024, 09:50 PM
Troxx in your re-read has anyone been receptive towards or in agreement with DSM's pocket thoughts?

The arguments against pocket characters were based on a false claim that there was a rule stating pocket characters could not be used. Even Troxx has admitted there was no rule stating pocket characters could not be used. He made it up.

This invalidates the arguments against pocket characters.

It also shows people were willing to make stuff up to try and change the debate.

bcbrown
07-15-2024, 10:03 PM
DSM, I don't think you've convinced a single person over pocket characters. Who agrees with you? I believe there's a broad consensus amongst everyone who's shared an opinion on the matter that it's not relevant.

Troxx
07-15-2024, 10:04 PM
Page 266 and we are back to talking’ bout our pockets …

A Shaman would NOT be able to rez & recover one of the Encs if they died, and the evidence betrays that you DO in fact realize this, because your post laughably tries to account for this by yet again moving goalposts. Remember, this is a discussion of a 4-man caster/priest group, which means "pocket clerics" have no place in this discussion and you bringing them up is wholly irrelevant (and disingenuous).

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Since you haven't been in the discussion, you missed the part where you can level a pocket cleric to CH a pet if you really want that in-between pulls. You only need a level 39 cleric for CH.

So now our 4 man caster group has a pocket cleric to swap in between pulls to heal the pet …

https://c.tenor.com/EfIzNXUD22oAAAAd/moving-goal-posts-field.gif

#movethegoalposts

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

https://c.tenor.com/HACqTtaXr_4AAAAC/bob-dumb.gif

Yup. He’s now clinging to the “this was general” comment after literally moving the goalposts multiple times creating very specific scenarios that he argued endlessly about. When he was proven wrong he created new scenarios. When he was proven wrong again he shifted to his current stance. It’s the funniest thing I’ve watched on these forums ever I think.

Keep it up boys … 300 is on the horizon!

https://c.tenor.com/-xd2i1TKJC8AAAAC/nosleepgang-squad.gif

https://i.imgur.com/LckUyX8.png

So did DSM give up trying to prove shamans are good dps (within spitting distance of mages) in fast paced, high dps groups? Is this why we are now talking about kicking out the cleric in lieu of having a shaman … but saying “that’s ok because you can just have a pocket cleric and to log in for pet cheals, buffs and rezzes”?

Or did we just get on another stupid side tangent like when he stated warriors solo better than enchanters at lower levels (enchanters who can charm no less)?

I would have said this entire situation was unfathomable … but DSM proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that anything is possible if you do enough drugs.

https://c.tenor.com/UIwmZgWJbh8AAAAC/tori-toys.gif

For those who need a refresher of the discussion, the current data is as follows.



DSM attempted to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion.

Of course - speaking strictly mathematically - 4=/=5, so it is unclear why DSM has attempted to bring this 5th character into the equation or why he believes doing so is not an example of moving goalposts - when it objectively is - hehe. :)

(Lol)

Why bring a "pocket cleric" into this?

How is not an admission of defeat right here?

Troxx
07-15-2024, 10:07 PM
A walk down memory lane …

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923&page=270

I am proud of my first few posts on this page. I had been out on vacation and was catching up on the previous 40-60 pages

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread.

Oh … and cd288 is now added to the list of people who should be ignored as of page 271

The 2 goalpost shifts by DSM(5th pocket cleric & DPS breakpoint) pretty much confirms the fact that shamans are useless(they can't cheal/rez & you can hit the dps breakpoint without them. They really bring nothing to the table, this is why you don't really see enchanter/cleric/shaman trios, the enchanter/cleric knows they just don't need a shaman.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-15-2024, 10:08 PM
DSM, I don't think you've convinced a single person over pocket characters. Who agrees with you? I believe there's a broad consensus amongst everyone who's shared an opinion on the matter that it's not relevant.

The disagreement comes from a false claim about pocket characters not being allowed. A consensus based on a false claim is meaningless.

The people who agree with me is the P99 player base. Plenty of people use pocket characters and mules on P99. This is seemigly forgetten in this thread.

Why do you think players will stop using pocket characters in a static group? Nothing is stopping them from using pocket characters, and many people do so already.

Duik
07-15-2024, 10:31 PM
Dresses generally dont have pockets.

Whats's does one have in ones pocketses?

Duik
07-15-2024, 10:31 PM
I dunno if i got 449 pages of this left in me to be honest.

Troxx
07-15-2024, 10:36 PM
Page 273 I provide some summaries:

More or less this.

All the good information and discussion can be found in the first few pages of this thread. It really boiled down to whether or not a group wanted redundant utility or whether they wanted to just kill things faster. DSM tried to make the case that shamans were perfectly good dps. His napkin math showed they were just as good or close but over time were actually better or equal while also bringing utility thusly implying shamans are the clear cut 4th spot winner.

The great dps “debate”:

-We were presented logs of him soloing a level 40 Jin shaman frog (literally the weakest mob in the zone). This was not relevant to the topic.
-then we got some napkin math about med rates, nukes per hour … you name it …
-We were later gifted yet another solo rot/dot fight of him and his pet on a zone in golem. Again … not relevant to the discussion.
-we watched him misinterpret parses given to him. Claiming I was nuking 4-8 times (lol) for 825 per pop per fight assuming that all “hits” from my mage were nukes and not remembering my pet nukes.
-we watched him ignore breakout fights showing a LOW of high 70s dps and a HIGH of over 175dps with the average floating 100-120 which was right where I said my non-epic, non-focus, no clicky boots mage would be in a fast moving group.
-we later saw Ally’s 58 mage put up similar numbers (granted we don’t know what kind of group she was in but I digress…)
-WE NEVER SAW DSM ONCE JOIN A FAST MOVING, HIGH DPS GROUP TO SHOW HOW HIS SHAMAN COULD PERFORM … only napkin math.

Side tangents we saw:

-a couple of dozen pages of him talking about how enchanters can’t really solo effectively until level 32, going so far as to say his no regen mildly twinked warrior at 27ish could do more dps than an unhasted level 17-18 charm pet as evidence that enchanters don’t solo well after they get charm (lol). We were given single fights for each. We pointed out that the charm pet was 10ish levels lower than his warrior, unhasted, and ignored the fact that done properly an enchanter can chain solo with no down time while the warrior will eventually have to stop. It’s a shame he felt the need to stack odds so aggressively to try and prove something we all know is BS. Ironically this side tangent dozens of pages in length was not even relevant.
-several more dozen pages involving this theoretical group having a pocket cleric to log in as needed to rationalize having the shaman in the group (lol wtf?)

The focus of discussion has flipped so often it’s hard to keep track. Goalposts are constantly moving and any time hard reality slaps an autist in the face there is shameless redirection or attempts to flat out ignore data not consistent with an autist’s agenda. In 23 years of playing this game and haunting forums I have NEVER seen anything as hilariously obtuse as this thread.

This really is simple. Any 4 man best caster group will have at a minimum a cleric and an enchanter. Charm is so overpowered that the obvious 3rd choice is another enchanter. This leaves one spot left with 4 possible choices.

A). Choice A is a 4th enchanter. Most dps. Some added risk. No additional anything but yes the most dps. As a cleric in this group I might go a little nutty having 3 potential targets to blast heal and 3 pets that will also eventually need a heal but if played well the enchanters should have any pet break on lockdown immediately.

B). Choice B is a mage who brings additional value of malo debuffs for pets, CoTH, pet haste masks, DS, a beefy pet to stand in the event charms break or simply to do great dps and nuke dps potential which is always welcome and never wasted because it isn’t a dot. As has been shown already, a good mage is a respectable 100-120 dps at the high end (more with pet focus, epic, and/or Velk boots). That is strong dps and honestly not far behind a high end quadding, hasted pet. It’s as strong or close to as strong as a standard “safe” xp group pet hasted or quadding. Strong dps, no added risk, additional perks added (malo likely the best of them)

C). Choice C is a necromancer who brings additional value of FD, backup rez, undead charm potential, additional pet which isn’t bad for the same reasons mage pet isn’t bad, ok-ish nukes and personal dps (they aren’t efficient but lich is some awesome mana regen). On top of that they bring some redundancy in that they have a good Cc tool kit and can heal pretty well (but the group doesn’t need it). On the whole a decent add for dps alone with summon pet and personal nukes but with utility that ISNT redundant and adds palpable value.

D). Choice D is a shaman. Shamans add value with malo. They have the worst pet option with low dps but it can take a few hits. They can nuke to add some dps but not efficient, lower impact hits and longer cast times. Mediocre dps when trying hard. They do have an expansive toolkit but this is where the redundancy kicks in. You won’t need the heals, slows, roots. Dots are worthless as stuff will die to fast. They do bring a measure of increased safety but with a cleric and TWO enchanters … how much safer can you get?? So yeah. Poor to mediocre dps. Maybe good in short burst of chain nuking but that still falls behind B or C. Tons of utility that unfortunately … is not unique to what the group already has other than malo.

I will close by quoting my very first post in this thread below. I still stand by it.

Great summary, and an accurate presentation of options available to anybody in this situation. Thanks for not muddying up the thread trying to suggest leveling a 5th alt either, since this thread is specifically about 4s.

I'd personally choose Cleric/Enchanter/Mage/Necro, which covers everything. It might not have the same amount of dps as multiple enc's, but I like that it gives you basically everything, while still being able to obliterate 99.9% of content. To me repeating classes is just boring.

Shamans are a fan-fucking-tastic class. By heads and shoulders one of the strongest. They are god-mode. But … the scope of this thread was very specific. Given the constraints of the question … they are not the best choice unless your group mates are incompetent and you expect there to be oh shit moments a lot that would threaten a wipe. If we are making that assumption and that players are inattentive and suck, however, we shouldn’t have 2 enchanters in the group to start with.

Best “safety” group?

Cleric ench mage necro would be my vote. You’ve got 3 classes with CC. 3 tanks (2 summon and a charm). 2 rezzers. 3 classes that can give mana to the cleric (clarity, mod rods and twitches), 2 classes that can rez, 2 classes that can heal, both malo and tash, and slows. And you have plenty of dps to do anything. Shaman still doesn’t fit the bill as the most ideal.

But assuming players don’t suck it’s one of the following;

Clr/ench/ench/nec
Clr/ench/ench/ench
Clr/ench/ench/mage

Page 278 … anticipation is building …

I’ll admit it. I told DSM about 200 pages ago I would take him seriously when he actually went out and gathered him some actual data with him in an actual group. Since then I have probably contributed a healthy 80:20 mix of trolling his eclectic ramble of nonsense vs actual active engagement in the false hope he will have an epiphany.

It has been enjoyable.

We celebrated page 100 with many good times and laughter

We rolled our eyes and got slightly nauseated with page 200

Maybe a party at 300?

https://c.tenor.com/1YT3z5FDE7gAAAAM/rally-300.gif

The pocket cleric logic, is like saying in a boxing match you have a gun and are allowed to use that. Like in the rules it doesn't say you cant use a gun, but obviously you cant.

And you only need to level a druid to like, 44 to get most teleports, necros get twitch at 44. If leveling a cleric to 49 is considered low enough effort surely we can also include these other classes who are way, way better at leveling than clerics are? We can also bring a pocket bard along to join the group between pulls for mana and regen song.

Pocket characters should be off the table for the discussion.

Troxx
07-15-2024, 11:17 PM
Page 288-289 … I had completely forgotten about this! One of the funnier tangents that actually did change the direction of discussion

Honestly, I may even take a druid over a shaman for 1-60 leveling in that enc / enc / cleric / XXX 4 man. If you did Warrens --> Perma --> CT --> Kedge --> Chardok you could always have an animal to charm, and this is also an insanely high ZEM pathway. Certainly not as good as mage / necro, but hell...it really isn't that far behind either.

Plenty of other dungeon options with animals too...plus the luxury of porting around...especially nice for an all caster group that needs to go get their spells!

Can't wait to watch DSM go through the roof when he reads this hot take.

Then you wouldn't have a very useful class at 60. A lot of combinations work well in the leveling process, but then you have a 60 druid that isn't offering as much as another class.

Case could be made it’s about as useful at 60 as a shaman in this theoretical group. POTG, free clicky group regen, ports/evacs and some half decent druid nukes and DS vs a whopping 55dps with of shaman.

Maybe tox has a point?!

https://c.tenor.com/xhQh9kx3eB4AAAAC/giggle.gif

Ok DSM we have established shamans are less than half as good as a mage. I now vote we redirect this discussion.

DSM now you gotta make the case why 55 dps worth of shaman is so much better than all the extra stacking utility Druids have compared to shamans in this theoretical group makeup!

….. and go!

You didn't read the data, which is why you are sticking to the lowest DPS number possible. You are basically saying Mage DPS is bad because you won't let the Mage use their pet. Great argument.

55 DPS is assuming you aren't letting your Shaman root/rot in a group chain pulling easy mobs. Again, that is like telling the Mage they can't use their pet. Nobody cares that you don't like root/rotting in a group.

DSM now realizing that in using his own backwards logic (dps is irrelevant since you already hit your soft cap) he now realizes he has to compete with Druids for a spot.

https://c.tenor.com/QdAU5GjF5wsAAAAC/brain-explosion.gif

-1-59 druid might just be flat out better everywhere. If you have animals to charm it’s no contest.
-at 60 the shaman is only 55 dps. Druid isn’t far behind that but has actual utility that isn’t redundant unlike the shaman.

https://c.tenor.com/6vaoYZcGakkAAAAC/shocked-face.gif

Ok DSM. Make your case. We will be the judge and jury. Why is a shaman better than a druid?

…. and go!

I made the druid argument earlier in this thread somewhere. Don't care to dig for it. Druid is a WAY better option than shaman if animals are available to charm. It's not even a contest in a zone like Chardok. Likely better even without charm. In the EXTREMELY unlikely event that "safety" is needed beyond 2 encs and a cleric. Druid direct healing is as good/better? Torpor isn't an emergency heal for when shit hits the fan. Druid also has the option of evac. Their utility has less overlap with the existing group and their buffs are better for casters than shaman buffs. I said this before somewhere but the only caster/priest class that is potentially WORSE for this group is Wizard. I honestly think literally every other caster/priest would be preferable to shaman for this specific group makeup.

This thread is so much more interesting when you glaze over the hundreds of “you … no you … no I said you … but I you …. But YOU YOU … no you you’d me!” posts and just skip to the quick bursts of interesting back and forths.

Troxx
07-15-2024, 11:25 PM
Ok … at page 300. We had a celebration:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923&page=300

300 pages and DSM still copy pasting dumb shit

For my boy Troxx:

https://i.imgur.com/XglamKs.gif

https://i.imgur.com/aqy96nU.gif

woohoo grats on 300 pages, good job everyone =P

https://c.tenor.com/6IZKGSu4bSoAAAAC/accomplishment.gif

https://c.tenor.com/ozBZkSgaDEUAAAAC/awesome-thumbs-up.gif

https://c.tenor.com/5S_UqI9MktAAAAAC/rosy-modelo.gif


I’m off to bed. Gotta be up at 0500 for work tomorrow

DeathsSilkyMist
07-15-2024, 11:51 PM
Troxx has been broken. He is posting a completely biased and delusional summary of the thread. The post history has not changed. His delusions will not change reality, even if he continues.

He is just showing everybody that he would rather do this than answer simple questions. 70+ pages of dodging and trolling.

In a different thread, the question of "which camps are better with a cleric?" was answered immediately, without 70+ pages of bloat. Troxx clearly didn't know the answer, or he would have said it. There is nothing wrong with admitting he was wrong or didn't know. But he can't do this, so he spams instead.

Troxx is clowning himself in a spectacular fashion right now. There is no logical reason why Troxx would think this makes him look good, and me look bad.

Penish
07-16-2024, 12:32 AM
i found dsm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kav7tifmyTg

bcbrown
07-16-2024, 03:28 AM
I asked Troxx if he could name a camp where a Cleric would be better than a Shaman at least 60 pages ago. He couldn't answer. In a different thread PatChapp could name Chardok Royals right off the bat. I have been waiting for Troxx to say "Chardok Royals" for 60+ pages now, but he couldn't do it.

The big lvl 60 cash camp that requires enchanters/cleric is chardok royals.

It sounds like we're in agreement now that there exist camps that need (as in require) clerics, while DSM has not been able to name any camp that needs (as in require) a shaman for this 4-man caster group.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 08:32 AM
It sounds like we're in agreement now that there exist camps that need (as in require) clerics, while DSM has not been able to name any camp that needs (as in require) a shaman for this 4-man caster group.

You forgot the second quote:

The lowest we've used is 52 and mana was very tight. If queen has a shield 52cleric is really hairy

This camp can be done with a 52 cleric, which is a pocket cleric. I am glad we are in agreement that Chardok Royals does not need a level 60 main Cleric to do it. We are also in agreement that no objective rule exists in this thread preventing pocket characters from being used.

Vaniki is a camp already named where slowing would be difficult without a Shaman using Malo, and a single Cleric would run out of mana before the fight was over. This means the Cleric is getting support from the Shaman for healing and extending the time between CH.

Fungi King and West Waste Dragons are two camps where a Shaman is better than a Cleric.

This means you have 3 camps where you'd want a 60 Torpor Shaman thus far, and two camps for Cleric, at least one of which can be done with a pocket Cleric.

Chardok Royals were already discussed earlier in the thread. Troxx spent 70+ pages trolling and dodging instead of providing such an easy answer. I wonder why.

Jimjam
07-16-2024, 09:13 AM
I don’t think I could give a definition to the term ‘pocket character’ that fully describes what is being talked about.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 09:19 AM
BUT MUH POCKET CLERIC

Troxx
07-16-2024, 10:21 AM
It sounds like we're in agreement now that there exist camps that need (as in require) clerics, while DSM has not been able to name any camp that needs (as in require) a shaman for this 4-man caster group.

CorrectBUT MUH POCKET CLERIC

https://media2.giphy.com/media/uQfBWEE6P3K3yeMuRu/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952r08bzs3cdsm5df6fajbsgskr49o6 6k2gqioo33cv&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

At work. Will continue my read-through when I find the time. Currently page 307 and literally 98% of it so far is DSM arguing the same thing to the same people without saying new things

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 10:51 AM
I don’t think I could give a definition to the term ‘pocket character’ that fully describes what is being talked about.

Oh that is easy. It was defined before, and the definition is supported by people doing this same pattern of behavior for years.

Pocket characters are characters that are purposely created to be shared between players. They are minimally geared and leveled to provide the utility needed. You typically do not share account information for your main/alt characters, because you don't want people masquerading as you main characters, or destroying/stealing your items.

A level 55 coth mage, 49 cleric, 44 Duid/Wizard are all examples of pocket characters. Dial a port has quite a few pocket druids/wizards. Plenty of guilds have pocket clerics and mages.

In the words of Crede:

Level a cleric and have people log it in as needed. I have an epic cleric that’s been 54 since 2014 and he has done countless rezzes. Just a phenomenal class that everyone should have at least one of.

---

Correct

At work. Will continue my read-through when I find the time. Currently page 307 and literally 98% of it so far is DSM arguing the same thing to the same people without saying new things

Troxx didn't read this last post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3692644&postcount=5517

It is part of a clear pattern of behavior where he ignores posts that disproves what he's said. His delusional summary is further proof of this. He would rather spam the thread with nonsense than address the arguments. He will waste his time summarizing the whole thread incorrectly, and have nothing to show for it. He'll just be adding more evidence to the post history that he is a troll.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 11:00 AM
MUH

POCKET

CLERIC

Troxx
07-16-2024, 11:05 AM
https://media3.giphy.com/media/Xcuh3tU8ShkGzY37ee/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952cm41azbv48opjaaz5iuznds7nn8fc w9hfy1hsz01&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Level a cleric and have people log it in as needed. I have an epic cleric that’s been 54 since 2014 and he has done countless rezzes. Just a phenomenal class that everyone should have at least one of.

Said Crede … not in the context of this thread.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 11:08 AM
Said Crede … not in the context of this thread.

The context of this thread allows pocket characters. You admitted you have no objective evidence that supports the no pocket character restriction. You admitted you made it up.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 11:28 AM
The context of this thread allows pocket characters. You admitted you have no objective evidence that supports the no pocket character restriction. You admitted you made it up.

did you just assume my pocket allowance?

cyxthryth
07-16-2024, 11:46 AM
ignores posts that disproves what he's said

I wonder where I've seen that behavior before... hehe. :)

Keebz
07-16-2024, 12:03 PM
How about a pocket shaman to malo, because that's about the only useful spell they cast for an all caster group?

Then you get to keep the cleric that can cast useful spells around.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 12:09 PM
got er'thang pocketed so bigly i just swap chars the entire time im playing with my hypothetical all caster group

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 12:12 PM
How about a pocket shaman to malo, because that's about the only useful spell they cast for an all caster group?

Then you get to keep the cleric that can cast useful spells around.

That's easy. You'd need to level the Shaman to 60 to get Malo. You don't need to level the Cleric to 60 for res and CH. You only need to get to 49.

If something happens to a level 49 Cleric in a shared account, you lose a lot less than a shared account with a 60 Torpor shaman. Especially now with the slow reimbursements.

You are also incorrect about Malo being just about a Shaman's only useful spell.

Troxx
07-16-2024, 12:26 PM
Mmmm pocket

https://media3.giphy.com/media/llrvT48Dq9AZc8ueFU/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952ufx25z8ohkkrasam2tsfyof8xxn4 t5gvjqfa3izj&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 12:43 PM
Said Crede … not in the context of this thread.

Let's explore that specific thread, to see if we can figure out Troxx's logic.

Here is the thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418868

The title is "How do solo enchanters deal with death?"

Both this thread and the thread Crede replied to specifies the number of main characters being played. Crede's thread is 1, and this thread is 4.

The titles of both threads do not say "pocket characters are not allowed". Nor does the OP say "pocket characters are not allowed" in both threads.


From the god damn title of this thread along with the first 100+ pages of the thread.


This is Troxx's answer as to why pocket characters are not allowed in this thead.

Why is Crede able to bring up pocket characters in that thread, but we can't do it in this thread? Both threads are set up the same logically. Either pocket characters are allowed in both, or they are allowed in neither.

As a reminder, this is Crede's post:

Level a cleric and have people log it in as needed. I have an epic cleric that’s been 54 since 2014 and he has done countless rezzes. Just a phenomenal class that everyone should have at least one of.

Keebz
07-16-2024, 12:47 PM
Most people in this thread arguing with you, have their own 60 pocket shaman or access to one. Nice try.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 12:50 PM
Most people in this thread arguing with you, have their own 60 pocket shaman or access to one. Nice try.

Having a level 60 main/alt is not the same as having a pocket character by definition. Trying to pretend a main/alt character is the same as a pocket character is silly.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3692660&postcount=5521 - read this post for the definition of pocket character.

bcbrown
07-16-2024, 01:39 PM
I don’t think I could give a definition to the term ‘pocket character’ that fully describes what is being talked about.

I think I would define a pocket character as one that is used for non-combat utility. Buffs, ports, rezzes, coth, corpse dragging.

A cleric that is necessary for complete healing a charm pet throughout an encounter is not in your pocket.

Zuranthium
07-16-2024, 01:42 PM
Pocket. Characters. Are. Not. Allowed. Here. WTF do you not understand, DSM. The topic is 4 characters only working together. Stop trying to strawman with "the OP never said it". EVERYONE in the thread is telling you the subject of the discussion is without a pocket characters. Stop trying to change what people are talking about and stop trying to act like you are the arbiter of what a "pocket character" means, you are not the arbiter of ANYTHING. Including having an understanding of the Shaman class. There's absolutely nothing you understand about it that others here don't understand equally/better.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 01:43 PM
the 4th players role is to constantly swap between all the pocket characters for max buffs

Troxx
07-16-2024, 01:50 PM
the 4th players role is to constantly swap between all the pocket characters for max buffs

And distribute hot pockets … and bring bed pans so they don’t have to interrupt their game play.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l2SpTE1ye4ASsDGU0/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952xpnepy8ds10i0b3w9tet5n5ldw9px pijfjn541kl&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 01:52 PM
And distribute hot pockets … and bring bed pans so they don’t have to interrupt their game play.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l2SpTE1ye4ASsDGU0/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952xpnepy8ds10i0b3w9tet5n5ldw9px pijfjn541kl&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

DSM's potty bitch.

Troxx
07-16-2024, 02:04 PM
Pocket potty

Elizondo
07-16-2024, 02:14 PM
DSM trying to distract from the fact he plays shaman so badly

Video Evidence leaves no doubt

Keebz
07-16-2024, 02:27 PM
Your definition of pocket character not agreed upon by anyone. But for arguments sake I have personally leveled multiple shaman bots to 60, so you are also wrong there.

But yes, pocket characters are irrelevant to this discussion.

Zuranthium
07-16-2024, 02:28 PM
Someone please buy a pocket pussy (mini size) for DSM so he can finally have something else to do. There have to be more interesting threads to create after 2 years.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 02:40 PM
Your definition of pocket character not agreed upon by anyone. But for arguments sake I have personally leveled multiple shaman bots to 60, so you are also wrong there.

But yes, pocket characters are irrelevant to this discussion.

Guild bots are a bit different from pocket characters, as you have DKP incentives to level them. The community agrees with my definition of pocket character, as my definition describes the practice of pocket characters. It has been this way for years.

Are you claiming people don't make level 55 mages for cothing, as an example? They are all leveled to 60?

If you want to claim pocket characters are irrelevant to the topic, rebut this post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3692680&postcount=5531

Troxx
07-16-2024, 03:14 PM
DSM’s rationale is clear. Shamans need pocket clerics so pocket clerics should be allowed even though everyone else disagrees with respect to this thought experiment.

Meanwhile clerics don’t need pocket shamans at all to be successful in all environments within the scope of this thought experiment.

Very sound logic.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 03:29 PM
DSM’s rationale is clear. Shamans need pocket clerics so pocket clerics should be allowed even though everyone else disagrees with respect to this thought experiment.

Meanwhile clerics don’t need pocket shamans at all to be successful in all environments within the scope of this thought experiment.

Very sound logic.

Troxx continues to troll by strawmanning what I've said.

Troxx is ignoring Vaniki, where a lone Cleric would not work, and Malo/Shaman Slow/Torpor would help more than a second Cleric.

Troxx continues to dodge this post, which disproves his claim that pocket characters are not allowed in this thread, using his own logic:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3692680&postcount=5531

Troxx is also denying reality, as people make and use pocket characters regularly.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 03:48 PM
Troxx will you please stop denying reality on elfsim forums?

thanks

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 03:52 PM
Troxx will you please stop denying reality on elfsim forums?

thanks

Thank you. These forums are designed for people to get answers to questions about the game. Troxx can go to RnF when we wants to spam threads with nonsense. This is not the place for that.

Toxigen
07-16-2024, 03:55 PM
pot, meet kettle

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 04:16 PM
pot, meet kettle

Yourself and Troxx are the ones who necro this thread to spout more nonsense. As I said, I never start this.

Trox, meet Tox indeed.

Snaggles
07-16-2024, 04:31 PM
Troxx is ignoring Vaniki, where a lone Cleric would not work, and Malo/Shaman Slow/Torpor would help more than a second Cleric.


Done a lot of 4-person Vaniki kills?

500+ pages later these four friends are being signed up for the death row of p99 camps…

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 04:56 PM
Done a lot of 4-person Vaniki kills?

500+ pages later these four friends are being signed up for the death row of p99 camps…

I bet you've seen people use pocket characters in the past. 500+ pages later and people still pretend they wouldn't be used in a static grpup.

Troxx
07-16-2024, 05:45 PM
Done a lot of 4-person Vaniki kills?

500+ pages later these four friends are being signed up for the death row of p99 camps…

I’m not convinced 4 casters can do Vaniki. I’ve tanked him on my warrior and healed him on my cleric.

-Even if you could get him pulled to the zone line
-Even if you could kite him around and get him preslowed without getting rooted and killed
-Even if you could compete with all the guilds that you will be competing with
-even if you didn’t suffer a catastrophically timed charm break

Even if you succeeded in all 3 of the above without problems (and you won’t) and you managed to have the correct type of charm pets (the rats from a down deep)

I don’t think you could keep the pets alive and get vaniki dead without running out of mana. Both pets will end up Willsapper slowed in short order. Pet dps will be gutted. Cleric will be chain casting complete heal even with torpor.

If the stars and planets aligned and you did manage it all - for why? Sell loot rights? For all the hassle you would be better of farming something else.

Troxx will you please stop denying reality on elfsim forums?

thanks

It’s funny how he thanked you lol

Sarcasm eludes him

Keebz
07-16-2024, 05:57 PM
I think you gotta just chuck pets at him.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 07:02 PM
Troxx was so close to writing a normal message without any trolling. How he interpreted my post is just more evidence his brain has been twisted by his never ending lies about other posters. If you keep lying, you'll believe the lie.

I do agree that some camps may not be worth the effort. I'd say Vindi falls into that category. He's on a 9 hour respawn timer, and his items are not that expensive DKP-wise. With his respawn frequency just about any guild can get kills too. It's easier for a lot of people to farm DKP for Vindi loot, and you won't wait too long for a drop.

Vaniki loot rights would sell well I think. Vaniki has a much longer respawn timer, and a lot of people want Willsapper. It's more expensive DKP-wise too.

Troxx
07-16-2024, 08:04 PM
I think you gotta just chuck pets at him.

That is, I think, the only strategy that would work. Remember though that the only pets that will be effective will be deep down in there. Do you pull them (the pets) to zone in? And then pull? Try to do it all in rat city?

Vaniki is a high value target. Guilds plan for it when in window and on quakes. My warrior is parked there specifically for it. I play my cleric alt otherwise to help until I have scored one.

A 4 man caster group isn’t going to be competitive here. I don’t think 4 casters are capable of killing Vaniki. I admit I could be wrong but I won’t believe it until I see it. If it WERE possible these 4 casters would need to bind outside DN in WW to be competitive- severely hampering all other endeavors.

_________________

Massive iPhone thoughts (pardon spelling and autocorrect)

For this exercise in theoryquest I have always had, in my minds eye, the following:

What are the 4 best casters for a group that:

-have no bots (violates the purpose of this exercise)
-have no pockets (why? Violates the purpose as above)
-can use the economy but is starting from either scratch or modest twinking
-can level the most effectively 1-60
-can experience the most CONTENT from 1-60 (no limits, no restriction)
-has the most fun (least grumpy/annoying aspects)
-can farm their own spells/gear and their own coin
-can GET their important spells, or farm coin to finance it
-has room for growth at level 60 under their own muscle… spells and gear they need or want
-can (piggy-backing on the above) accomplish and acquire the most for these 4 specific casters by either killing themselves or financing upgrades beyond their capabilities

Anything that CAN be bought on the economy is fair game- Epics, MQs etc

I always considered that to be the question. Not simply which group composition can tackle the highest value or hardest trophy (raid) kill.

There is no situation when examining the totality of the above that I would ever, for one minute, recommend not having a cleric. Enchanters? OP with charm … you want at least one for charm and clarity. The other 2? No third adds more umph than a second enchanter knowing you have a 4th.

The 4th is up for debate.

Enchanter: silver star. Superior dps and extra eyes on cc/emergency. Highest dps but not much to add beyond that

Necro: gold star for all around utility and the ability to do camps that REQUIRE FD

Mage: silver star+ considering everything… gold star for excluding content requiring FD. Platinum star for only mundane content where extra necro utility not ROUTINELY helpful

Druid: gold star for all around creature comforts, mobility and utility. Less potent than the above but you already have to charms so why not? Globally? Silver star (high or low)

Wizard: silver/bronze star. Opens hate and sky but will this group strive to ever do it? Can always hire a porter otherwise .. I don’t know.

Shaman: solid silver star. They can dps but it is not good. They can heal but you probably won’t need it. They have other utility but you shouldn’t need it. Certainly not dead weight but nothing that stands it apart. In MY opinion is absolutely better than wiz. Most of the time better than druid. For the rest it just falls short. For content that is actually meaningful and requires torpor + cleric healing? Platinum star. Thus far no content has been described that fits this bill and is worth this groups time.

If DaP or external ports are not allowed- grab the Druid.
If you really want sky/hate - you have to take the wizard
If you are determined to eventually do things that NEED FD to pull - you have to take the necro

For the rest? Strong debates can be made for mage/nec/ench. I favor the mage for the type of content most people will be doing. Necro is undeniably more potent but good necros are few and far between and you probably don’t need their toolkit. Bad necros are bad. Mediocre necro? Bring a mediocre mage instead. Good necro? Well that’s a gem!

Most impressive potential on content not needing FD? Enchx3 and a cleric (assuming everyone is good).


Caveat for WW dragons: yes these characters will want it. Yes shamans can solo 7/6’s. Yes I have done this on my shaman. Yes enchanters CAN solo it. So can a cleric and ench duo it? Even more yes. Different tactics but trivial when you add a cleric to an encounter that an ench can solo. Add another ench? Exponentially easier. Add a mage or necro whose pet can be dispell charm broken? Absolutely trivial. When you bring 4 players to a situation where one can solo it - not hard. I would argue that a shaman trying to solo it the way they do AND balance the needs of a group is harder than just changing strategy altogether and playing it differently with what ya got.

Caveat for fungi king: the only hard part is the pull - which doesn’t involve the shaman really at all. If your pull team can manage the pull- cleric does not make the encounter harder than the shaman. They accomplish it differently.


————————

In summary I think that if you are allowing for hiring ports, players will be:

1. MOST CAPABLE (globally, all camps best untility): cleric ench ench necro
2. MOST EFFECTIVE (globally, doesn’t hunt that which needs FD): cleric ench ench mage
3. MOST RELAXED (globally can do it all if not best but has all): cleric ench necro mage

If hiring ports violates the rules;

1. Cleric ench necro Druid
2. Cleric ench necro Druid
3. Cleric ench necro Druid.

Druid here, if ports are otherwise not available is more important than a 2nd cleric, any mage, absolutely any shaman

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 08:09 PM
I do appreciate the civil post! Thank you. This is not sarcastic.

However, Troxx keeps claiming pocket characters are not allowed, but this is false.

He has yet to rebut this post showing the inconsistency in his logic regarding why he thinks pocket characters are restricted:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3692680&postcount=5531

Some of his logic in his previous post is predicated on the false claim pocket characters are not allowed.

If he admits pocket characters are allowed, and he simply wants to make a list without them, that is perfectly fine.

He just shouldn't be shutting down conversations with pocket characters via a false claim.

Penish
07-16-2024, 08:49 PM
yeah i got my pocket wiz, dru, shm, ench, nec, clr, mag, bard

i can make any gr00p i want now forever

Troxx
07-16-2024, 09:07 PM
Shush now DSM. Nobody wants to consider play pockets but you. You only want to consider pockets so a shaman will be added (they will need it).

Be an adult and just drop the damn pockets.

Duik
07-16-2024, 09:25 PM
Listen fuckers. DSM makes the rules here.

Pockets? Allowed.
Napkin math? Mandatory.
Inherant Shaman Superiority? Duh.
Being mean and trolling? DSMs mom said nopety nope nope.

Chant Necro Druid Cleric.

As an aside in a whole party wipe this pocket cleric rezzes 3 out of 4 chars. So someone logs out of a recently rezzed, logs into the pocket to rez the original rezzer? So as to not 2 box. Is this what you guys really do?
Sounds awfully convoluted and anally retentive

Troxx
07-16-2024, 09:29 PM
Sorry I did not have the time to write the above dissertation and read through more of the thread. I will pick up where I left off tomorrow

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 09:46 PM
Shush now DSM. Nobody wants to consider play pockets but you. You only want to consider pockets so a shaman will be added (they will need it).

Be an adult and just drop the damn pockets.

You need to be the adult and admit you made up the pocket character restriction. Adults tell the truth and admit when they are wrong.

Your logical inconsistency is shown clearly in this post, which you have yet to rebut:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3692680&postcount=5531

Shutting down conversation because it hurts your argument is childish.

Duik
07-16-2024, 10:02 PM
Quote by dsm

Shutting down conversation because it hurts your argument (with me) is impossible

There I fixed it for you.

Troxx
07-16-2024, 10:19 PM
Nobody made up a pocket restriction OR admission except you. Nobody else thinks pockets are relevant. Only you think they should be included … and the rationale is obvious. Adults do not ignore all the other adults around them and make up their own rules. We get it. If you can’t have a pocket cleric you lose. That sucks. We get it.

I am sorry you never got help for your neurodevelopmental disability.

Do not take it out on the rest of us who are neurotypical.





Be at peace.









Deep breaths.













(Ignore everything below if you are fragile and need a safe space)











DSM … stop reading now!








No really. You lack the mental maturity or acuity to handle it…







I warned you … stop now ….







Ps: Fuck yo’ pockets and your half-wit arguments that require pocket clerics because shamans need pocket clerics but clerics do not want or need pocket shamans. Your raging pussy-bitch self is too cowardly to rebut this simple fact. You do not answer basic questions cause you’d a basic bitch of mediocre or worse intelligence. You are … literally … the worst.

Pps: thank you for existing. Without you these forums would be boring. Please, by all means, keep being stupid. Your idiocy enriches an otherwise boring and dying forum.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 10:57 PM
Thank you for admitting there is no pocket cleric restriction finally. You agree nobody made a pocket cleric restriction.

Every legal action is enabled by default in every discussion when there is no restriction against it. That is why Crede was able to mention pocket characters in the other thread. There was no explicit enabling or disabling of pocket characters in that thread.

You do not need to explicitly enable legal actions. Otherwise op would have to make a list like this:
1. Mules are enabled
2. Pulling is enabled
3. Meditating is enabled
4. Casting spells is enabled
etc.

No thread does this, and this thread is not an exception.

That admission of being wrong took a lot of effort I can tell. That's why it looks so silly. But I am glad you did it.

Moving forward, you cannot shut down discussions of pocket characters, as you agree there is no restrictions.

Thank you!

Troxx
07-16-2024, 10:58 PM
Why do you always thank people for things they didn’t do or say … or things that didn’t happen.

It doesn’t make sense man

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 11:11 PM
Why do you always thank people for things they didn’t do or say … or things that didn’t happen.

It doesn’t make sense man

The only thing that doesn't make sense is you admit you are wrong, and then say you didn't. Why is it so hard for you to say you are wrong?

You agreed nobody made a pocket character restriction. You simply tried to hide it by claiming that a thread needs to explicitly enable pocket characters.

This clearly isn't the case, as Crede mentioned a pocket cleric in a thread thay doesn't explicitly enable or disable them.

Elizondo
07-16-2024, 11:29 PM
DSM needs a pocket cleric because he plays shaman so badly

DeathsSilkyMist
07-16-2024, 11:48 PM
I'll make this as simple as possible.


Adults do not ignore all the other adults around them and make up their own rules.


Agreed. That has been my point the entire time. This includes yourself. Remember that consensus by itself is not a rule.


Nobody made up a pocket restriction


Correct. This is what I have been telling you for 80+ pages now. OP did not post a pocket character restriction. The title of the thread does not have a pocket character restriction.


OR admission


There is no rule on these forums stating pocket characters must be admitted into a thread before they can be discussed. The proof of this is the thread with Crede:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418868

Level a cleric and have people log it in as needed. I have an epic cleric that’s been 54 since 2014 and he has done countless rezzes. Just a phenomenal class that everyone should have at least one of.

That thread does not have an explicit rule stating pocket characters are allowed, or not allowed. Crede posted about a pocket cleric anyway, and nobody said "pocket characters are not allowed".

If you still want to claim you haven't admitted you are wrong after you literally said there is no pocket character restriction, that just doesn't make sense.

Keebz
07-16-2024, 11:53 PM
What I don't get is what DSM things the pocket cleric is even for. This group wants the cleric logged in and playing. You can't CH my pet from character select.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 12:01 AM
What I don't get is what DSM things the pocket cleric is even for. This group wants the cleric logged in and playing. You can't CH my pet from character select.

Almost all fights this group can do can be Torpor tanked. This means you do not need to CH the pets.

The poclet Cleric is used for Chardok Royals and the occasional res when you need it.

Keebz
07-17-2024, 12:24 AM
If you can torpor tank something an enchanter can probably just solo it. That's a pretty low bar.

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 12:41 AM
There is no rule on these forums stating pocket characters must be admitted into a thread before they can be discussed. The proof of this is the thread with Crede. That thread does not have an explicit rule stating pocket characters are allowed, or not allowed. Crede posted about a pocket cleric anyway, and nobody said "pocket characters are not allowed".

If you still want to claim you haven't admitted you are wrong after you literally said there is no pocket character restriction, that just doesn't make sense.

Of course there's no rule about when pocket characters can be discussed. You're always free to bring up pockets in your arguments. But, crucially, anyone (or everyone) else is free to disregard any argument that relies upon pocket characters. No one else agrees with you, as far as I can tell. You haven't convinced anyone. Sorry.

Elizondo
07-17-2024, 12:52 AM
So apparently the shaman is torpor tanking, heaiing enchanters during bad charm breaks, rooting 5 mobs to dot at the same time and maloing on charm breaks too

Not to mention keeping buffs up

Did I forget anything?

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 02:13 AM
Of course there's no rule about when pocket characters can be discussed. You're always free to bring up pockets in your arguments. But, crucially, anyone (or everyone) else is free to disregard any argument that relies upon pocket characters. No one else agrees with you, as far as I can tell. You haven't convinced anyone. Sorry.

Glad we agree there is no rule against pocket characters. This means all arguments claiming there was a rule are irrelevant, and are no longer part of the discussion.

More people on P99 play with pocket characters than people who disagree with me in this thread. Crede included, who's had a pocket cleric since 2014. This means more people agree with me via their actions than you. That is reality.

If you want to close your eyes to the world and claim you've won via consensus, you are free to do so. But you haven't convinced anyone to stop using pocket characters. They will still do so. The illusion of consensus is all you have.

Duik
07-17-2024, 03:43 AM
So apparently the shaman is torpor tanking, heaiing enchanters during bad charm breaks, rooting 5 mobs to dot at the same time and maloing on charm breaks too

Not to mention keeping buffs up

Did I forget anything?

I postured the same question god knows how many pages back.

I bet you dont get an answer either.

Vear99
07-17-2024, 09:27 AM
This clearly isn't the case, as Crede mentioned a pocket cleric in a thread thay doesn't explicitly enable or disable them.

A thread about class selection implicitly disables pocket characters because the question has no meaning otherwise. Otherwise the answer is always 'you'll be most effective with a BIS monk, shaman, cleric, enchanter, warrior, rogue, and maybe wizard' like Toxigen's sig. I don't think your overall statements in this thread are bad, but you are so focused on winning every argument that you are churning out some absolutely ridiculous rationalizations and that is why people are getting frustrated and slinging mud at you.

Since the pocket theme is silly, let me say that although I don't think ENC/ENC/CLR ever really needs a 4th wheel, I feel like the only real reason to choose MAG is COH pull shenanigans and when I played COH had been broken here for years. Everything else Shaman does better: more DPS (avatar on both pets alone is +50, especially if you give them big proccing weapons), better pulls (higher HP/AC and breaking rooms with Tigir's), and more help on charm breaks (chloroblast is better than mod rods).

However, if I were picking a 4th I would almost exclusively focus on pulls because you have so much dps and cc anyway. So I think the best is probably Necro or a 2nd cleric (especially HIE) with the dark horse being Wizard who can pull rooms with AE snare and heal themselves with the epic rune. Which I think is pretty much what most people have been saying. If you want to prove them wrong, whip up a group and measure.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 09:48 AM
lol im nowhere near bis

i always went for the budget items spread across alts with my 5% RA

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 10:16 AM
A thread about class selection implicitly disables pocket characters because the question has no meaning otherwise. Otherwise the answer is always 'you'll be most effective with a BIS monk, shaman, cleric, enchanter, warrior, rogue, and maybe wizard' like Toxigen's sig. I don't think your overall statements in this thread are bad, but you are so focused on winning every argument that you are churning out some absolutely ridiculous rationalizations and that is why people are getting frustrated and slinging mud at you.


This is just a slippery slope argument, and has already been debunked multiple times. Creating a new pocket Cleric in a group purposely starting new characters together is clearly not the same thing as using a stable of existing BiS mains/alts. Those characters already exist. A new pocket cleric is made by this group and they level it up together.

No, a thread about class selection does not implicitly disable pocket characters. It doesn't implicitly disable mules either. Mules are also characters that exist outside of the picked class to provide utility. Same with pocket characters. Plenty of people use pocket characters in static groups, and will continue to do so regardless of this thread.

You seem to be ignoring the other posters like Troxx who is so hell bent on winning he will spam the thread, troll, and lie about what other people have said. It is always amazing that people ignore this bad behavior and think it is ok. This thread would have been over long ago without this kind of nonsense.

You say I need to provide evidence. I have done a lot more of that than the opposition. Why don't you do this yourself, or ask someone else to do so? Evidence would be great, but it's mostly coming from me and nobody else. This seems one sided don't you think?

I postured the same question god knows how many pages back.

I bet you dont get an answer either.

I've answered this question many times. You can Torpor Tank and do other things. Just watch one of my many videos:

https://youtu.be/KPs_VghU-v4?feature=shared

You can Torpor tank and deal with a charm break, I've done it before.

The root/rotting scenario has always been a DPS focused Shaman, doing that instead of normal Shaman duties. I didn't say you would be Torpor Tanking and root/rotting 5 mobs at the same time anywhere in this thread. It is just another straw man.

If you can torpor tank something an enchanter can probably just solo it. That's a pretty low bar.

Yes, most content this group can do is Torpor Tankable and/or Enchanter soloable. That is why a Cleric main is generally not going to be at their best in this group. There is no Warrior to be CHed. The Enchanter can handle most charm breaks solo. You'll be using things like Shaman Slow and Malo more often than Cleric Stun and blast heals. You won't need to CH the pets with Torpor tanking.

Pocket the Cleric for Chardok Royals and the occasional Res. People already do this.

Duik
07-17-2024, 10:54 AM
Posted by YouKnowWho...

I've answered this question many times. You can Torpor Tank and do other things. Just watch one of my many videos:

Only the dumbest of fucks watches videos of others playing video games. Or children. Like my 10yr old does to find out how to progress in various games.
Only you seem to value the videos you have in your (fully ignorable) worthless and easily forgettable sig (lolocaust).

At the risk of being blodgened to death with boredom, I did check out the video that Troxxigen (one of those two) mentioned at 1:50 where you 3%ed one chanter. Good work no one.
So no thanks. Your videos suck, sorry but you needed to hear that. I'd rather stand in front of a fast moving train.

Troxx
07-17-2024, 10:59 AM
Of course there's no rule about when pocket characters can be discussed. You're always free to bring up pockets in your arguments. But, crucially, anyone (or everyone) else is free to disregard any argument that relies upon pocket characters. No one else agrees with you, as far as I can tell. You haven't convinced anyone. Sorry.

Bolder and highlighted that for DSM. He seems to have stopped reading after the first sentence. DSMs case for shaman is so un-compelling and weak that that the only way viability is possible is if pockets are allowed.

Funny how shamans will need a pocket cleric but clerics do not need (or want pocket shamans).

This entire side debate is even more straightforward than the early arguments where the clerics was guaranteed a spot and we were bickering/dickering about who should be 4th

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:07 AM
Bolder and highlighted that for DSM. He seems to have stopped reading after the first sentence. DSMs case for shaman is so un-compelling and weak that that the only way viability is possible is if pockets are allowed.

Funny how shamans will need a pocket cleric but clerics do not need (or want pocket shamans).

This entire side debate is even more straightforward than the early arguments where the clerics was guaranteed a spot and we were bickering/dickering about who should be 4th

Troxx didn't read the first sentence, where Bcbrown agrees that no rule exists against pocket characters.

Of course there's no rule about when pocket characters can be discussed.

Troxx forgets that his entire argument against pocket characters was based on an imaginary rule agsinst them.

He can discuss groups without pocket characters freely. But he cannot shut down other peoples discussions of groups with pocket characters via an imaginary rule and trolling.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 11:10 AM
maybe if DSM posts 2000 times in this thread someone will be convinced

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:12 AM
maybe if DSM posts 2000 times in this thread someone will be convinced

More people play with pocket characters on P99 than disagree with me in the thread. The side against pocket characters is in the minority, and will promote pocket characters in other threads.

Vear99
07-17-2024, 11:15 AM
lol im nowhere near bis

i always went for the budget items spread across alts with my 5% RA

I know, but I always thought you managed to get close enough!

This is just a slippery slope argument, and has already been debunked multiple times. Creating a new pocket Cleric in a group purposely starting new characters together is clearly not the same thing as using a stable of existing BiS mains/alts. Those characters already exist. A new pocket cleric is made by this group and they level it up together.

The slippery slope is not a logical fallacy per se; it depends on the probability of the implied events. For example, the wikipedia page for the slippery slope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope) shows a cartoon from 1895 about how weddings would look in 2001 if women got the right to vote with an extremely large woman in a tux and a tiny, feminine man. They are clearly intending to mock the cartoonist - but in our age of 2SLGBTQI+ was he wrong?

In this case the probability of additional steps is extremely high. If you are willing to to add a pocket cleric to a 4 man group, there is no reason not to add a pocket druid for ports, or a pocket necro for corpse summon, and then you might as well get them a little gear so that they can help 'with key encounters'. The probability of these steps is even higher on the forums where no actual effort is involved and the egos of the debaters are on the line!

You seem to be ignoring the other posters like Troxx who is so hell bent on winning he will spam the thread, troll, and lie about what other people have said. It is always amazing that people ignore this bad behavior and think it is ok. This thread would have been over long ago without this kind of nonsense.

I don't think Troxx has covered himself in glory in this thread, and he knows it. But you should ask yourself why you are triggering so quite many people.


You say I need to provide evidence. I have done a lot more of that than the opposition. Why don't you do this yourself, or ask someone else to do so? Evidence would be great, but it's mostly coming from me and nobody else. This seems one sided don't you think?

When you want to prove X empirically, the best thing to do is to measure X, not measure Y and then claim that Y implies X using Z logic. If you can setup ENC/ENC/CLR/SHM vs ENC/ENC/CLR/MAG groups, even in something like like the Chef/Bar camp and prove that SHM kills more frogs, you will put Troxx & co in a very difficult place. Alternatively, you can type out another 1800 posts.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 11:26 AM
DSM has been staring into walls soaking DKP for too long.

While there were no "rules" stated as no pocket characters, the spirit of the question is surely based on 4 casters with no outside assistance.

Troxx summed it up nicely a few pages ago.

Keebz
07-17-2024, 11:27 AM
Pocket characters are not part of this discussion, but if they were, a pocket shaman for the once in a blue moon Malo + pre slow makes the most sense. Them being 60 doesn't mean they can't be "pocketed". The cleric provides its value while logged in and actively piloted.

As for Torpor tanking, you're not doing that for anything actually difficult and in general are better off letting the pets do the work. For example, if you find yourself in a group with 3 charm pets, your job as the shaman is not "tank" and you're just complicating things by forcing yourself into the situtation. If you want to prove us all wrong, upload the torpor tank videos of something mildly challenging. Chardok Royals or epic mobs at least.

Until then you sound like a child shamelessly paraphrasing what Jayya said.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:27 AM
...


Yes, people do create multiple pocket characters. This group can create a new 55 Mage for CoTH, a new 49 Cleric for CH, and a new 44 Druid for ports. None of these are existing level 60 BiS characters that already exist. Making all three would take less time and money than one BiS level 60 character.

We agree Troxx has been silly. If you've read the forums, there are some posters who attack me in every thread. The pattern of bullying is quite clear. Blaming the person being bullied is silly. You don't have to agree with me, but that isn't an excuse to attack other posters.

I've provided quite a bit of evidence for why a Shaman is great in this scenario. You can check the post history. Follow your own advice and provide something yourself. You are new to these forums and this thread.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:28 AM
While there were no "rules" stated as no pocket characters, the spirit of the question is surely based on 4 casters with no outside assistance.

Are you suggesting this group can't use mules?

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 11:30 AM
The fact that hes even throwing in time considerations to get BiS vs. leveling a bunch of pocket characters for a hypothetical 4 man caster group is a pretty good indicator of how dry his tongue is from licking walls.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 11:33 AM
Are you suggesting this group can't use mules?

There's a massive difference between having a mule to hold items in EC vs. actively parking a 5th char for a group to aid in combat effectiveness / recovery.

Your inability to make that distinction is mind boggling.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:34 AM
There's a massive difference between having a mule to hold items in EC vs. actively parking a 5th char for a group to aid in combat effectiveness / recovery.

So you agree the group can have outside assistance now? Mules are characters that are not the four man characters, and provide outside assistance.


Your inability to make that distinction is mind boggling.

I understand the difference just fine. I even provided definitions earlier in the thread. You are the one who claimed "no outside assistance". Mules are outside assistance. We were not discussing the differences between the two.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 11:35 AM
So you agree the group can have outside assistance now?

jesus fucking christ bro

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:38 AM
jesus fucking christ bro

Indeed. First you claim zero outside assistance, then you backtrack and claim mules are ok.

All while forgetting more people on p99 play with pocket characters than disagree about pocket characters in this thread.

You'll support pocket characters outside this thread too.

The reality is people interested in this thread will just make the four man group they were convinced by, and create mules/pocket characters. They do that already.

Vear99
07-17-2024, 11:43 AM
Follow your own advice and provide something yourself. You are new to these forums and this thread.

I have actually been checking this thread off and on for some time; it's been interesting and entertaining. I only posted because it seemed like you and Troxx might have finally resolved to settle your differences a few days ago, and test groups seems like the obvious way to do so. But if you are enjoying sparring on the forums, I am not going to stand in your way. Godspeed sir!

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 11:54 AM
I have actually been checking this thread off and on for some time; it's been interesting and entertaining. I only posted because it seemed like you and Troxx might have finally resolved to settle your differences a few days ago, and test groups seems like the obvious way to do so. But if you are enjoying sparring on the forums, I am not going to stand in your way. Godspeed sir!

I agree that the side supporting Clerics should provide some evidence for once. Thus far I have provided most of the evidence in this thread. Troxx with a test group would be a great start.

Troxx
07-17-2024, 12:05 PM
maybe if DSM posts 2000 times in this thread someone will be convinced

He is above 1800 posts now … won’t be too long at this point

Zuranthium
07-17-2024, 12:14 PM
What 4-person group with a "pocket Cleric" is DSM even trying to argue as the best? Enchanter, Enchanter, Shaman, and....???

Penish
07-17-2024, 12:18 PM
I would like to point DSM to the DSM-5, please look under; Disruptive, Impulse-Control, and Conduct Disorders

also lol

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 12:22 PM
everything in absolutes with this spergonaut

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 12:36 PM
What 4-person group with a "pocket Cleric" is DSM even trying to argue as the best? Enchanter, Enchanter, Shaman, and....???

Yeah, I'd like to hear him restate his opinion on the group composition. I'm still at enc/enc/clr, with either a druid if it's a new server or the group wants self-sufficient mobility, or a necro if not.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 12:40 PM
everything in absolutes with this spergonaut

You are just describing yourself. "No pocket characters" and "No outside assistance" is pretty absolutist lol, especially considering OP did not explicitly make this rule.

You are the one subjectively interpreting the title of the thread in absolutist terms in an attempt to dismiss other people's arguments.

Vexenu
07-17-2024, 12:55 PM
DSM's argument for the pocket cleric is a red herring, and rests on the entirely fallacious assumption that the only value the Cleric provides is rez. But this is simply not the case. In a group with two permanent charm pets (possibly three with a Dru/Nec 4th man), you are going to have charm breaks occuring on a very routine basis. And not only will charm breaks be frequent, but they represent the biggest danger of wiping the group.

For a group that is entirely reliant on charm, it is thus imperative that you have the best protection against charm breaks built into the group composition. And with a line of fast casting stuns, the Cleric is much better equipped to help his group mates weather a bad charm break than a Shaman. The Cleric also provides substantially better HP buffs, blast healing and CH from lvl 39 for 20pp versus Torpor at lvl 60 for $$$$$. The Cleric also has DA to assist the Enchanters with pulling. In short, the cleric is bringing a LOT of value to the group besides rez, and is doing so from 1-60, whereas basically the entirety of the shaman's already questionable value rests on Torpor at 60.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 01:00 PM
And Torpor is really only being cast on the shaman who now has to tank instead of 2 pets being CH'd. Meanwhile the cleric based team hit 60 long before the shaman becomes even remotely impactful due to the enchanters being able to keep dedicated (weaponized) pets chewing through mobs constantly.

He's just a mediocre shaman player hell-bent on convincing people that shaman is better than cleric for 2x enc, which is laughable and why the rest of us have strung him along for almost 600 pages.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 01:02 PM
What 4-person group with a "pocket Cleric" is DSM even trying to argue as the best? Enchanter, Enchanter, Shaman, and....???

If I were to make this group, i'd go with Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer.

Pocket characters would be a 49 Cleric, 55 Mage, and a 46 wizard. This is looking at reality, where people make pocket characters. This has been going on for years. Crede has had a pocket Cleric since 2014. They are a great way to min/max your group.

This group would allow you to do any camp I can think of using the restriction of caster/priest only. The four players will have level 60 mains that are all great at soloing.

This is good for when the group is not together. The group may want to solo farm other camps while you are waiting for bigger targets if you end up farm crewing. Some people may just want to play their character while the group is not together. When the group eventually splits up, you won't be the one stuck with a 60 Wizard instead of a 60 Enchanter or Shaman.

DSM's argument for the pocket cleric is a red herring, and rests on the entirely fallacious assumption that the only value the Cleric provides is rez.


Vexenu is straw manning me by claiming I said Clerics are only good for Res. This is the best he can do. The post history disproves this claim.

Penish
07-17-2024, 01:04 PM
Narcissistic Personality Disorder Diagnostic Criteria 301.81 (F60.81)

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack

of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated

by five (or more) of the following:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).

2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.

3. Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).

4. Requires excessive admiration.

5. Has a sense of entitlement (i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations).

6. ls interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends).

7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her.

9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.




hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 01:08 PM
I don't think DSM is a narcissist, definitely on the spectrum though.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 01:09 PM
Penish is pretending to be a psychologist now, without realizing that you can provide examples of the trolls doing many of those points. But you can't diagnose someone over the internet, so it's not really relevant at the end of the day.

I don't think DSM is a narcissist, definitely on the spectrum though.

Toxigen thinks using autism as an insult makes him look good, and the other person bad. I'll never understand why people willingly make such an obvious error.

Penish
07-17-2024, 01:10 PM
can you guys pick out 5 or more? lawl

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 01:38 PM
If I were to make this group, i'd go with Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer.

Pocket characters would be a 49 Cleric, 55 Mage, and a 46 wizard. This is looking at reality, where people make pocket characters. This has been going on for years. Crede has had a pocket Cleric since 2014. They are a great way to min/max your group.

This would be a powerful setup. If I was trying to build this setup, I'd have the group level with the cleric instead of the shaman until at least the low 50s. The cleric is going to have better heals throughout (shaman doesn't get superior healing till 51). Then, in the low 50s, if the group decides they'd prefer a shaman, it shouldn't take long to powerlevel the shaman up.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 01:53 PM
This would be a powerful setup. If I was trying to build this setup, I'd have the group level with the cleric instead of the shaman until at least the low 50s. The cleric is going to have better heals throughout (shaman doesn't get superior healing till 51). Then, in the low 50s, if the group decides they'd prefer a shaman, it shouldn't take long to powerlevel the shaman up.

The difference is pocket characters are specifically on shared accounts. Shared accounts are more prone to getting messed with, like having all of your items deleted. Reimbursements can take a while these days. You also do not want someone masquerading as your main character, saying silly things.

You level the main characters to 60 that work best at 60, and don't share their account information. This group doesn't need Cleric heals to level to 60. You make pocket characters for the other classes. You let people know they are pocket characters, so people do not assume you are the one controlling the character if they are acting odd, and you lose less if the account is messed with.

It's less of a loss to lose a 49 pocket cleric than a 60 Torpor Shaman.

Zuranthium
07-17-2024, 02:03 PM
This is looking at reality, where people make pocket characters.

That is not the reality of starting on a server or simply having a low/medium amount of play time and playing your 1 character with a playgroup.

The difference is pocket characters are specifically on shared accounts.

That is not the definition of a pocket character.

If I were to make this group, i'd go with Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer.

As everyone has said, this group is inferior to having a Cleric. Torpor tanking on the Shaman is very inefficient compared to C-healing the Charm pets.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 02:07 PM
That is not the reality of starting on a server or simply having a low/medium amount of play time and playing your 1 character with a playgroup.



That is not the definition of a pocket character.



As everyone has said, this group is inferior to having a Cleric. Torpor tanking on the Shaman is very inefficient compared to C-healing the Charm pets.

People who have a low amount of playtime probably won't get very far anyway. Class composition doesn't really matter if you are going to get to level 30 and stop.

Yes, pocket characters are on shared accounts. That is why you have a different player log in to the pocket cleric to res you. Other people need to know the username and password.

You are simply claiming the group comp is inferior. You can have that opinion. If you want to claim it as fact, you'll need to be more persuasive.

Troxx
07-17-2024, 02:25 PM
If I were to make this group, i'd go with Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer.

Pocket characters would be a 49 Cleric, 55 Mage, and a 46 wizard.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZXJ3ZDZzM3E1Ymd3czUzYTFxamZ2Zmp yYnhlZ3JhZmp6emRmaGZzcyZlcD12MV92aWRlb3NfcmVsYXRlZ CZjdD12/V8gFgcahc7CObBxZ89/200w.gif

Might as well also have a pocket 60 Druid for PoTG, pocket pally for DS hp buff, pocket raid geared monk to pull the challenging stuff and a pocket 60 BiS raid geared warrior to tank the things that need defensive.

At this point your pockets have pockets

Troxx
07-17-2024, 02:26 PM
If I was any good at photoshop I’d put DSM’s shaman head on a female kangaroo’s head with a bunch of little eq people poking out of his pocket

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 02:28 PM
The difference is pocket characters are specifically on shared accounts. Shared accounts are more prone to getting messed with, like having all of your items deleted. Reimbursements can take a while these days. You also do not want someone masquerading as your main character, saying silly things.

You level the main characters to 60 that work best at 60, and don't share their account information. This group doesn't need Cleric heals to level to 60. You make pocket characters for the other classes. You let people know they are pocket characters, so people do not assume you are the one controlling the character if they are acting odd, and you lose less if the account is messed with.

It's less of a loss to lose a 49 pocket cleric than a 60 Torpor Shaman.

No danger here. Only one person has the password to the cleric while they're all leveling. If in the low 50s the group decides they'd prefer a shaman, you've said it's easy to powerlevel someone up to the 50s. If so, that same person creates a new account for the shaman, transfers over any decent gear, then shares the cleric account password with their three buddies. No one else ever knows the shaman account password, so it can't be lost.

During the leveling process the cleric will be a better healer.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 02:30 PM
Might as well also have a pocket 60 Druid for PoTG, pocket pally for DS hp buff, pocket raid geared monk to pull the challenging stuff and a pocket 60 BiS raid geared warrior to tank the things that need defensive.

At this point your pockets have pockets

Troxx continues to prove he doesn't know what a pocket character is. He doesn't seem to know people make level 49 clerics and share the account info with others. Strange, considering Crede's had a pocket cleric since 2014.

He seems to think a level 49 minimally geared character is equal to a level 60 in BiS gear. He's also bringing in a Monk and a Warrior to a caster/priest only group.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 02:32 PM
No danger here. Only one person has the password to the cleric while they're all leveling. If in the low 50s the group decides they'd prefer a shaman, you've said it's easy to powerlevel someone up to the 50s. If so, that same person creates a new account for the shaman, transfers over any decent gear, then shares the cleric account password with their three buddies. No one else ever knows the shaman account password, so it can't be lost.

During the leveling process the cleric will be a better healer.

You can have that preference if wish. It doesn't change the end composition, or the fact that the Shaman is one of the main characters that is leveled to 60. You are adding the unecessary headache of telling everybody you switched mains. Many people may remember you as the pocket character instead.

The group will level just fine without a Cleric to 60. Shamans and Enchanters can solo to 60 perfectly fine without a Cleric. A group with Enchanters and a Shaman is already going to do great while leveling.

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 02:54 PM
You can have that preference if wish. It doesn't change the end composition, or the fact that the Shaman is one of the main characters that is leveled to 60. You are adding the unecessary headache of telling everybody you switched mains. Many people may remember you as the pocket character instead.

The group will level just fine without a Cleric to 60. Shamans and Enchanters can solo to 60 perfectly fine without a Cleric. A group with Enchanters and a Shaman is already going to do great while leveling.

This is four buddies grouping together. There's no one to tell! There's no "many people"!

It will level faster with a cleric because during the leveling process a cleric is better for enc/enc/necro than a shaman. Better heals means less downtime. Extra stuns means faster recovery on charm breaks. Better HP buffs means fewer deaths. From 29-50s you'll have rez available, while if you level with a shaman you won't have rez available until whenever in the late 50s you level up the pocket cleric.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 03:03 PM
This is four buddies grouping together. There's no one to tell! There's no "many people"!

It will level faster with a cleric because during the leveling process a cleric is better for enc/enc/necro than a shaman. Better heals means less downtime. Extra stuns means faster recovery on charm breaks. Better HP buffs means fewer deaths. From 29-50s you'll have rez available, while if you level with a shaman you won't have rez available until whenever in the late 50s you level up the pocket cleric.

In an MMO, your static group will meet other people, unless your group is purposely ignoring everyone. You'll make friends outside of the group along the way.

This is where we differ. You admitted you are mostly focused on the leveling aspect of this group. You also don't have any 60s. I've been through the leveling process multiple times. You don't need to min/max the leveling process. A group of four casters is leveling quickly already. Shamans, Enchanters, and Necrancers can solo to 60 without a Cleric.

If the group gets impatient and quits before level 60, they probably would have done that anyway. The group composition matters the most at 60, when doing endgame content, which is why I put more weight on the endgame.

Your preference doesn't change the outcome of having two 60 Enchanters mains, a 60 Shaman main, a 60 Necromancer main, a 49 Cleric shared account, a 55 mage shared account, and a 46 Wizard shared account.

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 03:07 PM
This is where we differ. You admitted you are mostly focused on the leveling aspect of this group.

Yes, we agree that "best" is inherently subjective and different people with different persepectives will have different opinions on what "best" means.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 03:10 PM
Yes, we agree that "best" is inherently subjective and different people with different persepectives will have different opinions on what "best" means.

There is a factual best as well in any game based on math and rules. I think everybody would agree a raid weapon is better than a rusty weapon, as a simple example. This is not a subjective opinion, as people can compare the weapons objectively.

Not everything posted in this thread is simply subjective or just an opinion.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 03:18 PM
DSM is on the part of the curve where pixel sickness is at its highest. Everything is weighted to the end game.

Given enough time, he will transcend back to appreciating the leveling part of the game, especially in a static group and possibly no twinking / self found. His answers will change.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 03:22 PM
DSM is on the part of the curve where pixel sickness is at its highest. Everything is weighted to the end game.

Given enough time, he will transcend back to appreciating the leveling part of the game, especially in a static group and possibly no twinking / self found. His answers will change.

The discussion simply says "best", which would encompass the entire range of gameplay by default. This includes endgame, and the purpose of leveling is to get to endgame.

You can of course add rules to change what is considered "best". Four Mages would probably be the best self found caster group for the first 20 levels. I doubt many people are min/maxing levels 1-20 though.

Zuranthium
07-17-2024, 03:23 PM
There was no restriction stating the group is starting on a new server. Nor are there new servers to start on right now.

More of your usual idiocy and twisting of what has been said.

Anyone who wants to play p99 and hasn't before is starting on a server. There are 3 different p99 servers as well, and various others that have basically the same coding in terms of combat. Starting on a server is a constant occurrence, and even on a server you've already played on, having a 60 Warrior or whatnot is irrelevant for trying to do a 4-caster group.

People who have a low amount of playtime probably won't get very far anyway.

Incredibly dumb fallacy. You really just say anything.

You don't need to min/max the leveling process. A group of four casters is leveling quickly already.

Time is money. Time is opportunity. The entire point of talking about what is "best" revolves around what is most efficient or will be able handle the most/hardest amount of content.

Look at how you try to ignore literally everything that shows why you are wrong. Every occurrence of something be better, you just try to wave off with some stupid statement like this.

Yes, pocket characters are on shared accounts.

No they aren't. A pocket character is simply something you level up without the intent of playing it much and/or without giving it great gear. Sharing it is optional, and there is absolutely no concern of "items being stolen" anyway if you're playing with family or close friends.

Even if there was some concern of items being stolen, you don't need any items to utilize a Shaman. You can have a "pocket Shaman" to log on and do some buffs or Malo a particularly difficult target that the Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/X group wants to engage.

You are simply claiming it is inferior. You can have that opinion. If you want to claim it as fact, you'll need to be more persuasive.

Everyone has already told you why. You're just obtuse.

Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric will get to 60 faster and be able to do more than Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman.

Troxx
07-17-2024, 03:30 PM
Posted?
Total Posts: 5,624
User Name Posts
DeathsSilkyMist 1,814
Troxx 687
PlsNoBan 639
cyxthryth 434
Gloomlord 390
Toxigen 185
Ripqozko 139
Crede 127
cd288 123
bcbrown 115
Karanis 101
fortior 83
Vexenu 76
Duik 61
Elizondo 55
Chortles Snortles 48
Danth 42
Trexller 38
Keebz 32
Kich867 32
PatChapp 30
Zuranthium 30
Jimjam 28

He’ll crack 2000 posts before the weekend. Funny thing is that if you run this list of the most prolific posters - none of them agree with DSM. He has gone completely off the rails at this point.

It’s ok DSM, I’ll pray for you.

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 03:31 PM
This includes endgame, and the purpose of leveling is to get to endgame.

The purpose of leveling is to have a great time playing a fun game with some chill buddies while exploring dungeons and finding some cool gear.

Once you hit 60 you might as well put the toon on the shelf and start a new one. You did it! You beat the game!

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 03:41 PM
The purpose of leveling is to have a great time playing a fun game with some chill buddies while exploring dungeons and finding some cool gear.

Once you hit 60 you might as well put the toon on the shelf and start a new one. You did it! You beat the game!

The mechanical purpose of leveling is to progress. That is fact. Of course people may never get to 60, but that doesn't change the purpose of the mechanic.

More of your usual idiocy and twisting of what has been said.


I misread what you said, which is why I edited my post. Your attempt to claim this was a twisting of words is silly. I thought you meant a new server, which would change what people are doing. Leveling to 50 so they can get Manastones, for example.


No they aren't. A pocket character is simply something you level up without the intent of playing it much and/or without giving it great gear. Sharing it is optional, and there is absolutely no concern of "items being stolen" anyway if you're playing with family or close friends.


Sharing is not optional when you need to res your own character, for example. You need to be logged in to the character being resed, and someone else is logged in to the pocket character. Any time you share account information, the risk of problems increases.

Troxx
07-17-2024, 03:55 PM
The mechanical purpose of leveling is to progress. That is fact. Of course people may never get to 60, but that doesn't change the purpose of the mechanic.

The purpose of playing is to have fun. Playing typically results in the acquisition of experience which inevitably leads to leveling.

You have a weird ass perspective on video games

bcbrown
07-17-2024, 03:56 PM
The mechanical purpose of leveling is to progress. That is fact. Of course people may never get to 60, but that doesn't change the purpose of the mechanic.

The game design purpose of leveling is to create a skinner box to maximize player retention. See http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html for more details.

The purpose of playing is to have fun. Playing typically results in the acquisition of experience which inevitably leads to leveling.

I had a hell of a good time back in 1999 playing a level 10 troll SK with my buddy. We'd drink a bunch of in-game alcohol and go jump off the wizard pyramid and druid rings in S Ro. Not a lot of leveling, but a helluva fun time anyway.

Ripqozko
07-17-2024, 03:59 PM
The discussion simply says "best", which would encompass the entire range of gameplay by default. This includes endgame, and the purpose of leveling is to get to endgame.

You can of course add rules to change what is considered "best". Four Mages would probably be the best self found caster group for the first 20 levels. I doubt many people are min/maxing levels 1-20 though.

if you cared about being the best you wouldnt be in kittens, how would you even know.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 04:02 PM
The purpose of playing is to have fun.

Agreed.

That doesn't change the factual purpose of a game mechanic. The goal of the game is built into the mechanics, and people understand it naturally. That is why you see most players leveling and fighting mobs, instead of staying at level 1 and begging every NPC they can in Norrath.

People play Everquest because they agree that the progression system is fun. If they didn't, they'd play another game. The progression system takes you to 60, and then you start playing the endgame.

Toxigen
07-17-2024, 04:17 PM
if you cared about being the best you wouldnt be in kittens, how would you even know.

ayyyyyy lmao

Penish
07-17-2024, 05:44 PM
lol

Troxx
07-17-2024, 06:56 PM
People play Everquest because they agree that the progression system is fun.

Are you a robot?

DeathsSilkyMist
07-17-2024, 07:18 PM
Are you a robot?

If people didn't enjoy the primary progression mechanics of Everquest, they would play a different game. There are plenty of social games you can play if you just want to run around and talk to people. No leveling or camping items required.

People haven't seriously suggested four Mages (at least not that I have seen) because four Mages would not be as good in the endgame. This means you and other posters are considering the endgame too. I am not the only one.

If OP's group wasn't very interested in the primary progession mechanics of the game, they wouldn't have made this thread. They would have just make four random classes and started playing.

Duik
07-17-2024, 07:40 PM
If I was any good at photoshop I’d put DSM’s shaman head on a female kangaroo’s head with a bunch of little eq people poking out of his pocket

I have a good imagination, that's enough for me.
That is bound to be funny.

OP died of old age waiting for the "winner" of the 2024 ForumBowl.

Snaggles
07-17-2024, 07:57 PM
I bet you've seen people use pocket characters in the past. 500+ pages later and people still pretend they wouldn't be used in a static grpup.

I don’t think the intent was to have one of every class parked for frequent buffs, rather the best four who could tackle the toughest stuff (or at least synergize well).

Looking back I see Crede went with Ench/Ench/Cleric/Mage at post #2. Here I thought my combo was wild.

I haven’t done many 2x ench four-man’s but lots of 2x ench and a priest (me) in Velks lower dogs and spiders. Well over 200 hours. I prefer cleric for obvious reasons and it allows a non-stop grind. I have done a torp shaman as well (tanking and not). I have done a 60 druid. I would personally in that camp still go with the Druid because slot1 Nature’s Touch will heal 50% faster than Chloroblast and either way the pets will have to be blurred to get their hps back.

In the rare situation where it’s easier to top off the pet’s HP’s, with torp 5000 hps is almost 2 minutes. I would rather ensure the enchanters have PoTG and just blast a pet with 5 ND’s and afk for like 7 minutes. All the while you can refresh the pet DS and BP click a Regrowth for the enchanters.

IMHO, YMMV.

fortior
07-18-2024, 04:59 AM
Don’t forget evac and ports, a cleric can corpse lore drops, a druid can easily drop them off and gate back

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 08:44 AM
Big + for druid if you're into chardunk, too.

With the exception of DSM, we're all agreed on enc / enc / cleric / X, with X most certainly not being shaman.

X is dependent on goals. Necro / mage / druid / wiz all bring unique strengths. If you're ever trying to be a hate snipe crew its gotta be wiz, otherwise pick necro for ultra undead spicy, mage for chill, and prob druid for all around QoL (and did I mention insane chardok fun?)

Troxx
07-18-2024, 09:46 AM
With the exception of DSM, we're all agreed on enc / enc / cleric / X, with X most certainly not being shaman.

Indeed. Additionally, the consensus is resoundedly that pocket characters have no place in this discussion would be unanimous but for DSM. Pretty sure we can consider that stupidity settled at this point.

X is dependent on goals. Necro / mage / druid / wiz all bring unique strengths. If you're ever trying to be a hate snipe crew its gotta be wiz, otherwise pick necro for ultra undead spicy, mage for chill, and prob druid for all around QoL (and did I mention insane chardok fun?)

And that is ultimately going to be the capstone for this conversation. OP was frankly too vague to clarify this further. Each of the remaining casters other than shaman has a place in this group depending on the scope and goal of the group in question. If set criteria had been given on “best” (scope of the question) - a clearer answer would emerge.

I’m just glad the community (sans DSM) has narrowed the choice somewhat by removing shaman from the list of contenders. As much as I would have giggled my merry way along to see this thread drag on to 750-1000 pages - there really isn’t much more to share.

It would be funny if we could get this thread stickied at the top. I’m pretty sure we made forum history.

cd288
07-18-2024, 09:52 AM
Big + for druid if you're into chardunk, too.

With the exception of DSM, we're all agreed on enc / enc / cleric / X, with X most certainly not being shaman.

X is dependent on goals. Necro / mage / druid / wiz all bring unique strengths. If you're ever trying to be a hate snipe crew its gotta be wiz, otherwise pick necro for ultra undead spicy, mage for chill, and prob druid for all around QoL (and did I mention insane chardok fun?)

If you weren't allowed to pick based on specific dungeon/scenario, I would go with Druid. QoL, extra mana regen if it's a 60 Druid with PotG, potential ability to Charm if you want them to depending on where you are. Overall the point is that outside of Ench, Ench, Cleric, you don't really NEED anything else...so what brings the slightly more helpful toolkit to the table for the pointless 4th character, the answer is Druid.

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 10:07 AM
If you weren't allowed to pick based on specific dungeon/scenario, I would go with Druid. QoL, extra mana regen if it's a 60 Druid with PotG, potential ability to Charm if you want them to depending on where you are. Overall the point is that outside of Ench, Ench, Cleric, you don't really NEED anything else...so what brings the slightly more helpful toolkit to the table for the pointless 4th character, the answer is Druid.

Yeah thats what I'm leaning towards too.

We did it boys. Almost 600 pages and we revert back to the first 10 pages.

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 10:20 AM
this is the dumbest fucking shit ive ever seen how the fuck did you spergs take this all the way to 50 pages

fuck.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 11:16 AM
I don’t think the intent was to have one of every class parked for frequent buffs, rather the best four who could tackle the toughest stuff (or at least synergize well).

Looking back I see Crede went with Ench/Ench/Cleric/Mage at post #2. Here I thought my combo was wild.

I haven’t done many 2x ench four-man’s but lots of 2x ench and a priest (me) in Velks lower dogs and spiders. Well over 200 hours. I prefer cleric for obvious reasons and it allows a non-stop grind. I have done a torp shaman as well (tanking and not). I have done a 60 druid. I would personally in that camp still go with the Druid because slot1 Nature’s Touch will heal 50% faster than Chloroblast and either way the pets will have to be blurred to get their hps back.

In the rare situation where it’s easier to top off the pet’s HP’s, with torp 5000 hps is almost 2 minutes. I would rather ensure the enchanters have PoTG and just blast a pet with 5 ND’s and afk for like 7 minutes. All the while you can refresh the pet DS and BP click a Regrowth for the enchanters.

IMHO, YMMV.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Mem bluring pets to get their hp back works well. I've done Velks spiders and lower dogs with my Shaman too.

With slow, DS doesn't do much damage. Last time I did the calculations for Mage DS it was like 16 DPS unslowed and 4 DPS slowed. Shaman pet with haste is doing 17 DPS regardless of slow. Enchanter can use feedback with the Shaman pet if you want the small DPS boost from it. Both Shamans and Druids have Regrowth. Nature's Touch has a 5.5 second cast time vs chloroblast's 3. Not only do you get a chunk of HP back in 3 seconds instead of 5.5, 2 casts of chloroblast is close to Nature's Touch. It's not really a significant difference in the end.

I’m just glad the community (sans DSM) has narrowed the choice somewhat by removing shaman from the list of contenders. As much as I would have giggled my merry way along to see this thread drag on to 750-1000 pages - there really isn’t much more to share.

Shaman has not been ruled out of this group by the community. Remember that OP's group picked Shaman in the end.

Consensus from multiple people does not always mean something is true. As an example, in this thread there was also consensus that pocket characters weren't allowed in the discussion. This consensus was based on a false claim that there was a rule against pocket characters. There is no rule against pocket characters in this thread. The title of the thread does not prohibit pocket characrers, nor did OP say there was a rule against pocket characters.

I am fine with letting the discussion drop, the readers can decide who is more credible. This is my recommendation:


I were to make this group, i'd go with Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Necromancer.

Pocket characters would be a 49 Cleric, 55 Mage, and a 46 wizard. This is looking at reality, where people make pocket characters. This has been going on for years. Crede has had a pocket Cleric since 2014. They are a great way to min/max your group.

This group would allow you to do any camp I can think of using the restriction of caster/priest only. The four players will have level 60 mains that are all great at soloing.

This is good for when the group is not together. The group may want to solo farm other camps while you are waiting for bigger targets if you end up farm crewing. Some people may just want to play their character while the group is not together. When the group eventually splits up, you won't be the one stuck with a 60 Wizard instead of a 60 Enchanter or Shaman.

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 11:25 AM
this guy just has to get the last word

wild

cd288
07-18-2024, 01:45 PM
Any group with two Enchanters should always have a Cleric. If someone wants to try and make an argument for why Shaman should fill that pointless 4th group member slot, they can do so. But to replace Cleric altogether with Shaman makes no sense

cyxthryth
07-18-2024, 01:48 PM
Enchanter can use feedback with the Shaman pet if you want the small DPS boost from it.

LOL

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 02:14 PM
LOL

I am not sure why you are laughing. Feedback and Thorns do not stack. You can use Feedback on the tank since you don't have Thorns. Feedback on the tank + Shaman pet is going to be doing more DPS than Thorns alone in most cases, especially on a slowed mob. I wasn't suggesting casting Feedback on the Shaman pet if that's what you thought.

Troxx
07-18-2024, 02:28 PM
Shaman has not been ruled out of this group by the community.

Yes it has been.

Remember that OP's group picked Shaman in the end.

Sounds like someone else just wanted to play a shaman. The OP picked necro. People play what makes them happy - whether or not it met criteria for best or not. That’s fine.


Consensus from multiple people does not always mean something is true.

Consensus from lots of intelligent people with extensive EverQuest experience is important. Vs one weird guy who has a history of being wrong a lot (check my sig, check Tox’s sig) and generally on the losing side of every argument where there is disagreement.

I think we’re all trusting consensus here.

As an example, in this thread there was also consensus that pocket characters weren't allowed in the discussion.

Yes. For reasons very obvious to those with intelligence and without a bias or agenda.

This consensus was based on a false claim that there was a rule against pocket characters. There is no rule against pocket characters in this thread. The title of the thread does not prohibit pocket characrers, nor did OP say there was a rule against pocket characters.

Quit being an idiot.

I am fine with letting the discussion drop, the readers can decide who is more credible. This is my recommendation:

I’ll believe it when I see it. The best thing you could possibly do is just walk away and hope everyone forgets about this. I’m betting you will keep posting. I mean heck, even since you posted this you have kept posting.

Your underlying pathology will drive more posting from you, I guarantee it. Only you can prove me wrong.

Rimitto
07-18-2024, 02:32 PM
Shaman is better for groups than Enchanter.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 02:37 PM
As you can see, Troxx just can't admit when he is wrong.

He will continue to believe in the false claim that pocket characters are not allowed in the discussion. He has no objective evidence for this. Everybody can see the post history.

He also thinks an argument from authority fallacy is going to convince people. Consensus does always mean correctness.

Please look at Troxx's signature and location. These show Troxx's character. Only trolls put other people's posts in their signatures to discredit other posters. This is because they cannot prove people wrong via facts and logic.

Take this type of behavior into consideration when reading posts from Troxx.

Also remember that Troxx and Toxigen are the ones who keep necroing this thread. They are the ones who can't let go.

Vexenu
07-18-2024, 02:38 PM
Agree that you really can't go wrong with either Druid, Necro or Mage fourth man (and Wiz for Hate crew). It's a close enough call that it would really come down to a combination of that individual player's skill/preference and the group's goals.

Mage - If the player is the least skilled/experienced. If the group really wants Malo. If maximum DPS is a priority.

Druid - For overall quality of life. If splitting the group into two highly capable duos is desired. For a fresh server launch.

Necro - If the player is skilled and wants to get the most out of the class. If the group plans to level almost exclusively in dungeons, especially with undead. If the group plans on doing a lot of risky shit/pushing the limits so that FD and Necro rez would regularly pay dividends.

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 02:40 PM
Agree that you really can't go wrong with either Druid, Necro or Mage fourth man (and Wiz for Hate crew). It's a close enough call that it would really come down to a combination of that individual player's skill/preference and the group's goals.

Mage - If the player is the least skilled/experienced. If the group really wants Malo. If maximum DPS is a priority.

Druid - For overall quality of life. If splitting the group into two highly capable duos is desired. For a fresh server launch.

Necro - If the player is skilled and wants to get the most out of the class. If the group plans to level almost exclusively in dungeons, especially with undead. If the group plans on doing a lot of risky shit/pushing the limits so that FD and Necro rez would regularly pay dividends.

yep, 100%

Troxx
07-18-2024, 02:45 PM
Please look at Troxx's signature and location. These show Troxx's character.

Yes everyone, please do. It’s a hoot.

I knew you can’t and won’t stop posting. Your pathology won’t allow it.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 02:48 PM
Yes everyone, please do. It’s a hoot.

I knew you can’t and won’t stop posting. Your pathology won’t allow it.

Troxx forgets that he and Toxigen are the ones who keep necroing this thread. It is clear they care more about it than any other poster.

They are clearly trolling with their signatures. It is clear they are hoping to discredit me, rather than prove me wrong via facts and logic.

It isn't going to work, since they are the ones discrediting themselves with this behavior. People who are correct do not need to troll in an attempt to win.

Troxx
07-18-2024, 02:50 PM
I knew you can’t and won’t stop posting. Your pathology won’t allow it.

*cough

Walk away. It’s over. Nearly 1900 posts later you convinced nobody of anything.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 02:51 PM
*cough

Walk away. It’s over. Nearly 1900 posts later you convinced nobody of anything.

I walked away from the thread after you made a fool of yourself. You and Toxigen brought it back. Why is that?

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 02:52 PM
some folks just wanna watch the world burn

cd288
07-18-2024, 02:53 PM
To be fair DSM does have a point that you guys keep necroing this thread. I wish the staff would delete it already

Toxigen
07-18-2024, 02:53 PM
what is dead may never die

Troxx
07-18-2024, 07:34 PM
what is dead may never die

https://gifdb.com/images/high/john-candy-sad-nod-f91xzevyh2mw0bcc.gif

Elizondo
07-18-2024, 08:46 PM
2 years and 2000 posts later we can all agree that shaman is not a 4th option

Especially if they are played as badly as DSM

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 08:50 PM
2 years and 2000 posts later we can all agree that shaman is not a 4th option

Especially if they are played as badly as DSM

In the end OP's group still picked a Shaman. OP's group got the information they needed.

cyxthryth
07-18-2024, 09:48 PM
In the end OP's group still picked a Shaman. OP's group got the information they needed.

You have not provided any evidence that the information in this thread (or any of your videos) has influenced anybody in OP's group's decisions regarding which class to play.

Troxx
07-18-2024, 09:53 PM
You have not provided any evidence that the information in this thread (or any of your videos) has influenced anybody in OP's group's decisions regarding which class to play.

This is factually correct.

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 10:29 PM
This is factually correct.

People can see OP's group's decision. They picked a Shaman. People can also see your behavior in this thread. They'll decide how credible you are. I am just glad OP's group got their answer.

Elizondo
07-18-2024, 11:29 PM
People can see OP's group's decision. They picked a Shaman. People can also see your behavior in this thread. They'll decide how credible you are. I am just glad OP's group got their answer.

You forgot the part where he admitted it wasn't optimal and they just decided to pick classes they felt like playing

They definitely won't try to malo the pet when the chanter is at 3% health that I can tell you

DeathsSilkyMist
07-18-2024, 11:45 PM
You forgot the part where he admitted it wasn't optimal and they just decided to pick classes they felt like playing

You are making up obvious lies that I already corrected you on:


Thank you for all the feedback. I think everyone has a lot of great ideas/thoughts on this subject. We went with shaman, enchanter and 2 necros. I'm the one playing the extra necro. I could have gone enchanter or mage, but with kids/wife it's nice to just feign death and afk at a moments notice. But I do agree in theory that possibly either of those classes offered a bit more than an extra necro.


He isn't saying anything about the optimal setup of the other group members, including the Shaman. He is saying his choice of Necro wasn't optimal due to already having a Necro in the group.

Why lie like this? It just makes you look less credible.

Elizondo
07-19-2024, 12:04 AM
You are making up obvious lies that I already corrected you on:



He isn't saying anything about the optimal setup of the other group members, including the Shaman. He is saying his choice of Necro wasn't optimal due to already having a Necro in the group.

Why lie like this? It just makes you look less credible.

You're being silly

The 'evidence' is that decisions were made without them being the most optimal. You even just quoted it

Provide evidence his friend picked shaman because they thought it's the best as it pertains to this 2 year long spiral into mental illness that you are wallowing in

I don't want any goal post shifting. I don't want your haughty bluffs. Provide the evidence or go crawl back into the sewer from which you slithered out from

DeathsSilkyMist
07-19-2024, 12:07 AM
People can see what OP's group picked and read what OP said. They can look at your behavior too.

They can decide who is more credible and more convincing.

I am glad to see OP's group got the information they wanted.

I don't need to reply to you further, as it is clear you will just keep attacking me.

Elizondo
07-19-2024, 12:11 AM
People can see what OP's group picked and read what OP said. They can look at your behavior too.

They can decide who is more credible and more convincing.

I am glad to see OP's group got the information they wanted.

Oh boo hoo

Provide evidence or go away already. You're annoying and crazy.

bcbrown
07-19-2024, 12:23 AM
One of the best parts of this whole thing is that it outlasted the group whose composition was the inspiration for the thread. What level did yall make it to?

Troxx
07-19-2024, 02:21 AM
I knew you can’t and won’t stop posting. Your pathology won’t allow it.

And merrily we roll along!

Duik
07-19-2024, 03:53 AM
Jesus fucking christ

Toxigen
07-19-2024, 08:34 AM
Jesus fucking christ

Troxx
07-19-2024, 11:29 AM
Chardok royals wif muh fiddle-too pocket cleric hurrr durrrr

Elizondo
07-19-2024, 03:30 PM
DSM's fatal flaw is that he prefers to be 'right' instead of being effective

Ripqozko
07-19-2024, 03:31 PM
Jesus fucking christ

Duik
07-20-2024, 07:38 PM
It is clear the trolls are simply piling on now in the desparate hope the appearance of consensus means they are correct.

It is unfortunate civil discussion cannot be had on these forums.

Numb nuts. You say watch my videos for le skillzes displaymentness andz it will prove my pointz!

We have watched.
You have been weighed and measured and you have been found wanting.

Troxx
07-23-2024, 03:48 PM
You have been weighed and measured and you have been found wanting.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ktqEVHXUdyoAAAAd/you-at.gif

Swish
08-19-2024, 06:07 PM
In the end OP's group still picked a Shaman. OP's group got the information they needed.

True this...or did they?

Toxigen
08-20-2024, 10:19 AM
Pretty sure DSM quit the forums.

eqravenprince
08-20-2024, 10:39 AM
True this...or did they?

Honestly, I don't remember, I probably posted somewhere in all these pages.

TomisFeline
09-22-2024, 03:25 PM
Holy shit you guys have been bullying this dsm character for years in the same forum.
Give him a break. His love for shaman is so great he can not see clearly, but we don’t want to make another mace quester here…

Troxx
09-22-2024, 06:46 PM
His love for shaman is so great he can not see clearly,

Oh we know

but we don’t want to make another mace quester here…

No need to exaggerate …


Ps: I am concerned that we haven’t seen a single post from him in a long time. I hope he is well and has just moved on.

Regardless, this thread was epic

Swish
09-25-2024, 12:52 AM
I made a shaman on Quarm due to this thread. He didn't get many levels but I have DSM to thank (in part).

shovelquest
09-25-2024, 03:39 AM
I wanted to get an idea about what was going on here and DSM is arguing about shaman on page one. I clicked a random page... 500. He was arguing about shaman there and so I guess I am pretty much caught up.

Im on your side DSM! Except mage would be better, sorry.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-25-2024, 08:06 PM
I wanted to get an idea about what was going on here and DSM is arguing about shaman on page one. I clicked a random page... 500. He was arguing about shaman there and so I guess I am pretty much caught up.

Im on your side DSM! Except mage would be better, sorry.

It's quite simple to summarize this thread. Trolls flooded the thread with misinformation about the game and other posters like myself. They still lost the debate in the end. OP didn't listen to their nonsense.

Luckily the trolls haven't seemed to be trolling as much on these forums recently. Exposing the trolls via this thread and others has had a positive effect in the end. Glad to see they have finally realized how foolish they looked in this thread and others.

It's good to see proven trolls like Toxigen and Troxx still have trolling directly in their signatures, so people know what they are right away. It saves people the trouble of reading this thread and others to figure out what they are.

I hope he is well

I am doing well, thanks! Hope you are doing well too. As always, I have no ill will towards anyone on this forum. I call out trolls and trolling to try and improve the forums. It isn't personal. It's not good for the health of the forums or P99 when people attack others, troll, and/or provide misinformation when they aren't posting in RnF. It scares people away from the forums and the game.

Jimjam
09-26-2024, 12:30 AM
Welcome back from lurkland :)

Toxigen
09-26-2024, 09:35 AM
what is dead may never die

vossiewulf
09-27-2024, 02:29 AM
You know, I'm aware that obsessive and other pathologies are pretty common in the hardest of the hard core here, but a 569 page thread over one rather silly proposition is truly magnificent. Nothing you can say but wow.

Duik
09-27-2024, 03:12 AM
Well you were the one who tipped it over to 570!

Also. Welcome to Epic (forum) Quest.

Main factions are DSM and The Collective.

Troxx
09-27-2024, 03:00 PM
Main factions are DSM and The Collective.

It is hard to maintain decent faction with the collective without being kos to DSM.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-27-2024, 03:14 PM
It is hard to maintain decent faction with the collective without being kos to DSM.

Just don't troll and spread misinformation about other posters and the game. You'll be fine in my book if you avoid doing those two things. No trolling is already part of the forums rules by the way, so that should be easy to follow. Unfortunately you troll and spread misinformation often.

I have no personal grudge against you. Stop acting like a child and we can have discussions like adults.

Troxx
09-27-2024, 08:28 PM
Luckily the trolls haven't seemed to be trolling as much on these forums recently.

It’s interesting just how productive, non-confrontational and boring_but_useful these forums can be when only one poster takes a long sabbatical. It is also likewise amusing just how close to having an epiphany the quoted poster was … but still missed the mark.

I, for one, am happy he is back.

#MakeForumquestInterestingAgain

shovelquest
09-28-2024, 12:35 AM
I really wish we got faction points when we reply.

Like if I hate someones comment, I'd reply:

you have lost faction with shovelquest (-10)

I unclog my nose in your direction, English bed-wetting... tiny-brained wiper of other people's bottoms!"



and then loramin updates it all on a wiki page that tracked everyones forum faction.

Duik
09-28-2024, 01:23 AM
*Aura*
Kudos
Reputation.

They are on some sites.

Duik
09-28-2024, 01:26 AM
Musk would offer the hairplug quest.
Hail LeonMusk.
Hello pleb. For each [a hairplug] i will offer a rusty gnomish rocket + free blue tick!

DeathsSilkyMist
09-28-2024, 12:11 PM
It’s interesting just how productive, non-confrontational and boring_but_useful these forums can be when only one poster takes a long sabbatical.

Indeed! That poster was yourself. When you took a sabbatical from posting misinformation and trolling, the forums got better. I've been telling you this for years now. Nobody believes your excuse of "Another poster made me troll and post misinformation!". Looks like you've finally realized this excuse doesn't work, and the problem is yourself.

I believe you can continue to improve yourself. Don't backslide!

Troxx
09-28-2024, 09:10 PM
Swing and a miss…

DeathsSilkyMist
09-28-2024, 09:59 PM
Swing and a miss…

This is a potential backslide. Control your urges! I believe you can continue on the correct path, and become a positive contributor to these forums. You've already seen how much better the forums can be when you choose to act like an adult.

It seems like you are beginning to learn that it's easier to improve yourself instead of attacking other people. If you think someone is wrong, prove it! Taking the easy path via trolling will just make you look like a fool, not a person well learned on the subject in question.

Duik
09-29-2024, 07:27 AM
I am completly convinced DSM is the ultimate Troll.
Best ever. No contest.
Also his father owns a napkin manufacturing factory in China.

Troxx
09-30-2024, 11:54 AM
Five thousand seven hundred and three posts later …

DSM still lost the debates (including the primary and all nonsensical spin-off arguments).

Think we can make it to six THOUSAND posts?

DeathsSilkyMist
09-30-2024, 01:50 PM
Five thousand seven hundred and three posts later …

DSM still lost the debates (including the primary and all nonsensical spin-off arguments).

Think we can make it to six THOUSAND posts?

More nonsense. The reality is Troxx still hasn't provided logs for his Mage two years later. This is because he knows he lost the debate and cannot rebut video evidence + logs, and cannot provide evidence for his claims. The only thing he provided in this thread is hundreds of posts of silly gifs, trolling, etc.

Everybody who bothers to read this thread can see the truth. It always amuses me that posters like Troxx keep re-exposing themselves as trolls by necroing this thread. It doesn't help them, or hurt me.

Troxx seems to be trolling and providing misinfirmation less often, which clearly shows he knows he was the problem. I hope he keeps on his self improvement journey. This post is a bit of a backslide, but I believe he can overcome his pride.

Toxigen
09-30-2024, 02:26 PM
ehrmagherd no logs!!!1!

DeathsSilkyMist
09-30-2024, 03:28 PM
ehrmagherd no logs!!!1!

Indeed. Making factual claims without evidence is a problem when you refuse to admit you are wrong after evidence against your claim is provided.

This is especially true when trolls like Troxx and yourself decide to spam threads with nonsense instead of evidence when you are confronted by your lack of evidence.

All it shows is you cannot support your position, and must resort to trying to silence the opposition via underhanded methods. You aren't an expert, you are a bully. It's really that simple, and everybody can see it.

I am sorry you don't know as much about the game as you claim, and are too fragile to accept it and learn new things.

Troxx
09-30-2024, 10:50 PM
Additionally, DSM has small crowd sizes - mostly due to exhaustion and boredom …

‘cause over five thousand seven hundred posts

DeathsSilkyMist
10-01-2024, 12:50 AM
Additionally, DSM has small crowd sizes - mostly due to exhaustion and boredom …

‘cause over five thousand seven hundred posts

You have largest post count in this thread besides me. You are my biggest fan! Let me know if you need your hat signed.

shovelquest
10-01-2024, 12:51 AM
Additionally, DSM has small crowd sizes - mostly due to exhaustion and boredom …


You have the second largest post count in this thread. You are my biggest fan! Let me know if you need your hat signed.

dont fall for that bait just like the other guy did :D

Troxx
10-01-2024, 08:35 AM
#triggered

Toxigen
10-01-2024, 08:54 AM
If you don't take logs and crunch numbers down to 0.1 dps in a 25 year old game you don't know anything.

DeathsSilkyMist
10-01-2024, 10:56 AM
If you don't take logs and crunch numbers down to 0.1 dps in a 25 year old game you don't know anything.

Nice strawman. You do this to other posters often.

What rationale does one have to post hundreds of silly gifs instead of simply posting logs that already exist? We know the logs exist because parsers use logs.

The easiest explaination is they know the logs will hurt their argument, so they dodge via trolling. A person confident in their position does not need to troll, and it takes less time to post logs than it does to post hundreds of silly gifs.

Salaryman
10-01-2024, 11:04 AM
who needs logs when you have a Guardian Robe

GUARDIAN ROBE
U
A
R
D
I
A
N

R
O
B
E

https://i.imgur.com/ybScQF7.png

Does anyone else here have a GUARDIAN ROBE?
----------------------------------G
Dark Sandy Mist?-------------- U
no robe------------------------- A
----------------------------------R
the guy with an avatar---------D
making facial expressions------I
that would get him-------------A
kicked out of any---------------N
real life situation?
no robe--------------------------R
----------------------------------O
and his friend?------------------B
no robe--------------------------E

DeathsSilkyMist
10-01-2024, 11:14 AM
who needs logs when you have a Guardian Robe

GUARDIAN ROBE
U
A
R
D
I
A
N

R
O
B
E

https://i.imgur.com/ybScQF7.png

Does anyone else here have a GUARDIAN ROBE?
----------------------------------G
Dark Sandy Mist?-------------- U
no robe------------------------- A
----------------------------------R
the guy with an avatar---------D
making facial expressions------I
that would get him-------------A
kicked out of any---------------N
real life situation?
no robe--------------------------R
----------------------------------O
and his friend?------------------B
no robe--------------------------E

Posting an image showing your character wearing a guardian robe is more evidence for your position than Troxx has provided for his position across 700 posts in this thread. You are already much better at reinforcing your position than he is!

Nice robe!

Duik
10-01-2024, 11:15 AM
Gif are more fun.

Is there a name for a male who wears a dress?
A Priest?

NVM. Go back to red with the 5 x 6boxers that make up the current population. Have fun griefing each other and feeling good about it.
Also post selfies on the blue/green forum so someone actually sees it.

Kudos little buddy.

Troxx
10-01-2024, 12:37 PM
DSM has returned home from his inpatient psychiatric admission and is back to his typical neurodivergent flailing.

We’re definite making it to 6000 posts.

TomisFeline
10-02-2024, 09:17 AM
Honestly DSM is owning these other nerds right now. Not with the shaman argument, just in general he clearly has the upper hand atm. Excited to see where this goes from here.

Toxigen
10-02-2024, 09:24 AM
im amazed this hasnt been moved to rnf

Troxx
10-02-2024, 10:42 AM
im amazed this hasnt been moved to rnf

True, nothing really productive has been said since the first half-dozen or so pages

DeathsSilkyMist
10-02-2024, 02:59 PM
True, nothing really productive has been said since the first half-dozen or so pages

You are included in this statement. You have hundreds of posts in this thread of silly gifs, lies, trolling, insults, etc. They are unproductive indeed. I am glad to see you are finally admitting that you simply trolled this thread. Progress!

I've provided plenty of evidence to support my claims such as video evidence, logs, and relevant math. Pretending all of that isn't productive is just silly. You still haven't posted any logs of your Mage.

im amazed this hasnt been moved to rnf

Agreed. Glad to see you are admitting this thread was trolled. It's clear to see who the trolls were. People posting silly gifs, insults, lies, trolling, etc., while providing nothing to back up their claims.

Toxigen
10-02-2024, 03:57 PM
have you seen my stapler?

Troxx
10-12-2024, 11:02 AM
https://media4.giphy.com/media/40d1Z4ZkY9Ysg/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pe4rr5h6471kwa9mc3zp1qh99x8y0 h3oepy7zryb&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

Troxx
11-24-2024, 04:39 PM
As I sit here on my 60 shaman, killing a whole heck of a lot of:

https://wiki.project1999.com/An_apprentice_kennelmaster

In hopes of spawning more:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Kennel_Master_Al%60ele

So that I can farm all the:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Hammered_Golden_Loop

That I want for my myriad level 60 characters ...

Thoughts run through my mind. Chief amongst them is that DAMN shamans are overpowered! My shaman is in garbage gear but can do some amazing things!

But!

I am parsing.

Mobs have are level 56 and have 14750hp. Wiki states the phs have less hp but when I look at kill times they are all about the same. My shaman is killing these guys pretty easily. With a hp pool of 14,750hp the kill times for the last squad of mobs are:

286sec (51.57dps)
371sec (39.76dps)
236sec (62.5dps)
178sec (82.86dps)
175sec (84.29dps)
198sec (74.49dps)
173sec (85.26dps)
213sec (69.25dps)
206sec (71.60dps)
205sec (71.95dps)
252sec (58.53dps)
210sec (70.24dps)
184sec (80.16dps)
175sec (84.28dps)

Pet (variable level) contributed 11dps on the low end and 19dps on the high end. Pet was always buffed with Celerity, Maniacal str and Focus (stacking str). After the first 3 kills I managed to bum an AEGO (safety) and swapped my spell bar around. For kills 4 and beyond the general strat was:

*GCDs used to speed up the steps

Torpor self (pre-engage)
Malo (engage and pet attacks as soon as he hits me)
Slow (repeat if resist)
Bane of Nife
Envenomed Bolt
Shamam Epic Dot
Torpor self when drops
Canni whenever
Reapply dots in above order

Above are the actual fights. Functional "DPS" peaked at less than 85d.26ps. Averages of averages was lower. Delay between "engage" and first dot was 2.5 sec for the slow - GCD - 5 sec bane of nife cast. Pet was engaged from the second malo hit and mob hit me.

My shaman's gear sucks. Buffed with Aego and shaman buffs:
HP: 3465hp
AC: 920
Mana 2469 (Sad/bad)

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Jolav

Fights typically ended with me at 20ish mana. I could hover higher - but I would kill slower and repop time of 20 min. I favored get it dead fastest for more pops/time. For the record ... I am still down there right now on my shaman.

Discussion: I am doing a lot more than just DPS - but I am keeping epic dot + 2 really efficient poison dots up. Pet is fully buffed (max'd possible str and my haste buff). Resists between named and trash are pretty similar. Other than named hitting me a bit harder, they seem otherwise the same.

Fights are trivial with AEGO. Without aego it gets pissy if slows chain resist.

Point is ... shaman DPS seems to PEAK under these circumstances at just under 86dps. Average DPS is lower and these fights seem to work out just such that the mob dies as my last application of Bane and EVB are wearing off. It is a kind of 'best of the best' situation unless i wasn't tanking and could chain click JBB in between. Regardless, those dots are a mana HOG.

Mage? sit back. Pet and dmg shield do most of the work. Lazy lobbing of nukes does actually surpass shaman going nuts (and under ideal situations where dots do full damage). Mage can actually burn (BURN BABY BURN with scars of sigil and GCD for > 200dpps).

Which class is better? Shaman hands down 99.999% of the time. Decently good dps when needed. Solid healing. Amazing buffs/slows/utility Just not in a theoretical 4 man all caster group where you are rocking a cleric and 2 enchanters. Heals are covered by cleric. Enchanters have the rest covered.

Best 4th?
-another enchanter? duh
-necro? strong pet - FD/snare/rez/heals/taps/twitch/utility
-mage? strongest pet - malo/rods/nukes/coth/ds

sham? meh. It just doesn't fit. Most of what the shaman CAN DO and DOES DO well. Just doesn't fit. All the extra is not needed. When I try to lay down the law I can't do so effectively. Sure the pet can tank if both charms break at a worst possible time but my 60 necros EoT or 60 mage pets do so better.

Overpowered class.

But can't dps like a mage.

Jimjam
11-24-2024, 04:44 PM
Imo 86 is crazy good dps for what is meant to be a support class, especially on a mob within 5 levels of the character! I just wanted to say I enjoyed that little story you shared there Troxx :)

I don't have anything useful to contribute to the thread right now, sorry!

Troxx
11-24-2024, 05:00 PM
Yeah ... shaman DPS is really not that bad for a healer who also can slow 75%. Sometimes I forget just how good my poorly geared alt is.

It's just not close to mage dps :D

Duik
11-24-2024, 05:10 PM
I wanted so badly for a druid to out utility a shaman.
DS. AC/FR debuff. Snare. Dots. DD. Ports. Charm!
It just isnt so.

I just didnt get how good slow (and haste!) was... i was a bit, slow it seems.

Troxx
11-24-2024, 05:37 PM
I wanted so badly for a druid to out utility a shaman.


For the purposes of this group and depending on the scope ... druid does beat shaman. Ports/succor, snare, potg, animal charm (zone dependent), DS (if not bringing mage), group regen ....

If the group is supposed to be self sufficient? Druid might reign king for 4th

Shaman is a MUCH better class than druid. But if spots 1-3 are cleric/ench/ench ...

Shaman utility is kinda obsolete so yeah the druid brings more than shaman

Eisai
11-24-2024, 06:05 PM
I love snared charm pet. I always /duel the druid to keep up (grm him to avoid aoe mez)

/who all dial is my lfg pool on ench & necro :p


Never played shaman. Just incase i try it next legacy; troll?

DeathsSilkyMist
11-24-2024, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the Shaman parses Troxx! I do appreciate that you provided data this time.

I am glad to see you are showing around 80 DPS. I don't mean to dredge up old memories, but I will remind people of the parse that started the whole discussion:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Troxx showed a combined parse of 79 DPS for his Mage. After Troxx admitted his parse was lower than what the image displayed, he did refuse to provide logs so we could get the correct DPS data.

We were basically comparing 80 DPS to 80 DPS when comparing the two classes at the start of the thread.

Mages without Epic are doing more like 65 DPS via Water Pet, 16 DPS via Damage Shield, and 25 DPS from something like Burnt Wood Staff. So something like 106 DPS, or 116 DPS with Boots of Bladecalling if memory serves. If the mob is 75% slowed, you'd lose 12 DPS from the Damage shield, so 94 DPS to 102 DPS.

There really isn't much benefit the Mage provides compared to a Shaman in a group with multiple Enchanters, unless you really need the CoTH. The Enchanter pets give plenty of DPS as is. DPS thresholds exist. The utility from the Shaman far exceeds the DPS differences between Shaman and Mage. They can Slow instead of the Enchanters, tank better than a Mage pet, heal, Malo, root, AoE slow, etc. Redundancy is not a bad thing, as two Enchanters also have redudancy. It's good to have more classes who can cast similar spells, because players can only cast 1 spell at a time. Three people slowing simultaneously instead of two will land slow faster on a really nasty mob. You can also open up a spell slot for one or both of the Enchanters if the Shaman is on slow duty.

Mages are also easier to pocket compared to a Torpor Shaman, and many people do have pocket mages already.

I am just bringing back my argument since Troxx has done the same. We do not need to rehash further.

Eisai
11-24-2024, 09:25 PM
Last word! No backsies - no erasies - no replisies!

Duik
11-24-2024, 10:46 PM
Hit the dirt. Here she comes again.
The Westins Wagon Wheel, the biggest, roundest marshmallow and jam filled chocolate biscuit this side of breakfast.

Troxx
11-26-2024, 12:29 PM
https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Troxx showed a combined parse of 79 DPS for his Mage. After Troxx admitted his parse was lower than what the image displayed, he did refuse to provide logs so we could get the correct DPS data.

Yep and the same parses showed a level 60 monk with Fist of Nature and 15/20 priceless wraps doing only 48dps. I told you then and I'll tell you AGAIN that when you combine a whole wad of single fights into one composite fight that it skews everything badly.

You can believe that the mage only did 79dps about as much as you can believe that a near BIS monk with raid gear and max haste can only do 48dps.

I showed you the breakaway fights. Why did you ignore them? Because they didn't fit your narrative?

Go go napkin math!

After Troxx admitted his parse was lower than what the image displayed, he did refuse to provide logs so we could get the correct DPS data.

I provided you precisely what you wanted:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3495667&postcount=245

I showed you that it get's weird when you combined fights ... and that it is decidedly 'not weird' when you post single fights.

And yeah - as I sat there on my shaman doing shockingly good dps (but under the most ideal of circumstances - it just reminded me of all the shenaningans and bullshit. The DPS I was doing in Chardok would not be possible in a fast moving group. It was also helpful that I had a good 20 minutes between spawns because keeping both dots and epic up was ANYTHING BUT mana neutral. It was decidedly net mana negative. Even if this type of DPS could be layed down in a fast 20 second fight (it is not) it would not be sustainable without time spent recovering mana ... which would mean that even moreso ... it is not actually doable.

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 01:12 PM
Yep and the same parses showed a level 60 monk with Fist of Nature and 15/20 priceless wraps doing only 48dps. I told you then and I'll tell you AGAIN that when you combine a whole wad of single fights into one composite fight that it skews everything badly.

You can believe that the mage only did 79dps about as much as you can believe that a near BIS monk with raid gear and max haste can only do 48dps.

I showed you the breakaway fights. Why did you ignore them? Because they didn't fit your narrative?


The thing Troxx doesn't realize is his parse was completely useless. If everybody's DPS is off, then what's the point in posting it? This is why I ask Troxx for his logs. You can easily find the correct DPS via logs. Clearly his parser isn't useable. His breakaway parses were using the same parser.

But he clings to this strange idea Gamparse is the best program ever, when he literally gave evidence to the contrary.

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 02:00 PM
This is why I take Troxx's generic claims about how he parsed X weapon or Y class with a grain of salt. He's using a parser he knows has flaws, but uses it anyway. He either purposely posted a parse he knew was wrong, or didn't realize it was wrong initially and tried to smooth things over.

Who knows what kind of incorrect data he's been using to come to his conclusions. This is why he needs to provide logs, so we can get the correct DPS data from him when he makes data-based claims.

Troxx
11-26-2024, 02:20 PM
I might have had some un-realistically un-lucky runs. Same level same camp same buffs but resists have kinda fucked me. Last few fights:

Time: 193sec (76.42dps)
Time: 266sec (55.45dps)
Time: 157sec (93.94dps)
Time: 269sec (54.83dps)

Of note I did hit a new peak high dps of almost 94dps! Max summon pet and 0 resists. But ... you can see how for some of the other fights ...

the struggle-huggle was real and not fun at all

None of the above were dangerous but damn when strings of resists happen it really does help having a pet who doesn't average 18dps ...

Granted these mobs are level 56 - not the same LEVEL 40 FROGs DSM parsed vs ...


But the only thing DSM will care about is how my shitty shaman managed to parse almost 95dps with a max summon pet ... and a wonderfully perfect fight with no resists

Troxx
11-26-2024, 02:26 PM
I will say this though ... HOT DAMN .. shamans can put out some serious damage under perfect situations where they can

-burn their mana bar per mob
-use dots to full efficiency
-have a max summon max haste max buffed pet

Kudos to shamans under perfect situations. They truly are overpowered ... but we already knew that. Seriously awesome class!

Unfortunately they can't replicate this in a group with a cleric and 2 charming chanters.

(notice how DSM isn't asking me for raw logs for these fights? Why would he. I am providing solid data for shaman dps. It is REALLY impressive in a solo type of situation.)

Edit: Farmed 2x for my raid warrior, 1x for this shaman, 2x for my 60 paladin, and 2x sold for 6k each

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 02:30 PM
I might have had some un-realistically un-lucky runs. Same level same camp same buffs but resists have kinda fucked me. Last few fights:

Time: 193sec (76.42dps)
Time: 266sec (55.45dps)
Time: 157sec (93.94dps)
Time: 269sec (54.83dps)

Of note I did hit a new peak high dps of almost 94dps! Max summon pet and 0 resists. But ... you can see how for some of the other fights ...

the struggle-huggle was real and not fun at all

None of the above were dangerous but damn when strings of resists happen it really does help having a pet who doesn't average 18dps ...

Granted these mobs are level 56 - not the same LEVEL 40 FROGs DSM parsed vs ...

When you have 75% Slow, Torpor, and Cannibalize via Shaman, you can gnerally recover from a bad string of resists. I have plenty of videos on my youtube channel with parses of fighting harder mobs, including a 30 minute Ionat fight. He is just cherry picking a single parse I gave as a quick example because he can't provlde a good argument for his position.

But your parses match with what I said earlier:


Mages without Epic are doing more like 65 DPS via Water Pet, 16 DPS via Damage Shield, and 25 DPS from something like Burnt Wood Staff. So something like 106 DPS, or 116 DPS with Boots of Bladecalling if memory serves. If the mob is 75% slowed, you'd lose 12 DPS from the Damage shield, so 94 DPS to 102 DPS.


You were using mana nukes if I recall correctly instead of a clickie. You'll need to tell us if you've started using clickies. You also aren't getting backstabs if these parses are solo. Your numbers look correct when assuming no backstabs and mana nukes.


(notice how DSM isn't asking me for raw logs for these fights? Why would he. I am providing solid data for shaman dps. It is REALLY impressive in a solo type of situation.)

I would love for you to post logs! Sadly you never do, so I just assume you won't at this point.

Troxx
11-26-2024, 02:33 PM
The thing Troxx doesn't realize is his parse was completely useless.

Most people are smart enough to know that if a level 60 monk with 100% buffed haste and Tunare fist + 15/20 offhand is only doing 48dps ... everyone was actually doing more? I even gave you break-away fights to show the discrepancy - you ignored it.

Sorry if you're the only one who couldn't see it.

When you have 75% Slow, Torpor, and Cannibalize via Shaman, you can gnerally recover from a bad string of resists.

I did. They all died. But dps suffers.

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 02:36 PM
Most people are smart enough to know that if a level 60 monk with 100% buffed haste and Tunare fist + 15/20 offhand is only doing 48dps ... everyone was actually doing more? I even gave you break-away fights to show the discrepancy - you ignored it.

Sorry if you're the only one who couldn't see it.



I did. They all died. But dps suffers.

Most people are smart enough to know it is a silly idea to post data they know is completely incorrect. Most people also know you can use raw logs to get the correct DPS. Sorry you are the only one who can't see that.

Troxx
11-26-2024, 02:42 PM
The funniest thing is that this is the first (and thus far only) camp where i might prefer Ogre FSI over Troll regen. Mob being 56 means that interrupts are actually super annoying and frequent enough (gotta kill a thing every 20 minutes) that ...

If I could magically wave a wand and poof myself to Ogre specifically for FSI I might actually do it. It is super annoying. It isn't getting in the way of success ... but it is noticeable.

So from a pass/fail no FSI still doesn't matter. But man at this level it would be convenient. Doesn't offset the other 99.99% of the game where regen wins.

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 02:44 PM
The funniest thing is that this is the first (and thus far only) camp where i might prefer Ogre FSI over Troll regen. Mob being 56 means that interrupts are actually super annoying and frequent enough (gotta kill a thing every 20 minutes) that ...

If I could magically wave a wand and poof myself to Ogre specifically for FSI I might actually do it. It is super annoying. It isn't getting in the way of success ... but it is noticeable.

So from a pass/fail no FSI still doesn't matter. But man at this level it would be convenient. Doesn't offset the other 99.99% of the game where regen wins.

Glad to see you are starting to realize why FSI is nice at 60 with Torpor!


I did. They all died. But dps suffers.

This applies to Mages too by the way. If they get resists on their nukes, DPS suffers. The difference is Shamans have a lot more mana to play with than Mages to make up for resists.

Jimjam
11-26-2024, 03:04 PM
The funniest thing is that this is the first (and thus far only) camp where i might prefer Ogre FSI over Troll regen. Mob being 56 means that interrupts are actually super annoying and frequent enough (gotta kill a thing every 20 minutes) that ...

If I could magically wave a wand and poof myself to Ogre specifically for FSI I might actually do it. It is super annoying. It isn't getting in the way of success ... but it is noticeable.

So from a pass/fail no FSI still doesn't matter. But man at this level it would be convenient. Doesn't offset the other 99.99% of the game where regen wins.

/petition Hey man, you're smashing the petition queue! Take a break by doing a quick one - I ate too many muffins and am bloated. Can you illusion ogre me to represent this? thanks and good luck with the rest of the backlog!

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 03:14 PM
/petition Hey man, you're smashing the petition queue! Take a break by doing a quick one - I ate too many muffins and am bloated. Can you illusion ogre me to represent this? thanks and good luck with the rest of the backlog!

You gotta go with the HEHE meat, Ogres love HEHE meat.

Jimjam
11-26-2024, 03:15 PM
Okay, that is the real pro tip there!

Eisai
11-26-2024, 07:22 PM
Class doesn't matter. The answer is ME + my 3 closest friends. Don't just be the best, know the best.

DeathsSilkyMist
11-26-2024, 07:26 PM
Don't just be the best, know the best.

True! Knowing the best players will result in a group that works well together. The best players + the best classes is even better!

kjs86z2
06-12-2025, 01:50 PM
i just read all 575 pages of this

good times

DeathsSilkyMist
06-12-2025, 02:38 PM
i just read all 575 pages of this

good times



Kjs86z2 is Toxigen. He was banned on that account, and hopes people won't notice that when he necros this thread yet again. His behavior in this thread will probably help people underatand why he was probably banned.