BDA to Phinigel

[booter]

thx for red update

[jcr4990]

Double DKP for all raids this week over at the OG Club boys. Time to get sum pixels.

[Donjulio]

Double DKP for all raids this week over at the OG Club boys. Time to get sum pixels.

Dying shit guild struggling to keep numbers for the pixel flow, so they offer double dkp in order to entice people to log in.

[Hoozi]

Double DKP for all raids this week over at the OG Club boys. Time to get sum pixels.

ROFL. The biggest downside of DKP is too much DKP in the system. Way to make it worse.

[Nibblewitz]

Seems like we need another thread:

"Ring-Thief to Phinigel"

[arsenalpow]

ITT we've found out that no loot system is acceptable to the masses, only bitching about each loot system.

[nhdjoseywales]

ROFL. The biggest downside of DKP is too much DKP in the system. Way to make it worse.

For us, that is not the case. We are awarded DKP by clock ticks, not by mobs killed. This means as the xpac goes on and we kill shit faster and faster we actually start spending more than is coming in. Where we were raiding til midnight 3 nights a week at xpac launch we are now done by 9 or 10 many nights and missing half a nights dkp.

[nhdjoseywales]

Dying shit guild struggling to keep numbers for the pixel flow, so they offer double dkp in order to entice people to log in.

Lol, clearly thats the case. We have people sitting out due to raid full when we do non splits like tov pre vulak clear and 2-4 split other current content, clearly we have attendance issues and are just sucking.

[booter]

oh so it's the opposite, OGC is a zerg that cant fit all their members into one raid, i see

basically the new BDA

[Nibblewitz]

dkp is fine nerd. Not that I'd be caught dead grinding dingus kissing points in 2005 or later

+1 Dingus Knocking Point

[Donjulio]

Lol, clearly thats the case. We have people sitting out due to raid full when we do non splits like tov pre vulak clear and 2-4 split other current content, clearly we have attendance issues and are just sucking.

People sitting out of raids collecting dkp to spend on items they werent even present for. So sick dawg

Fuck i loved stomping the shit out of your guild on open world. Shame I cant play anymore, gee wiz

[Daldaen]

http://www.phinnykills.com

Damn, 17 guilds have cleared Vex Thal. Instances are incredible, allowing all these super neckbeard and dirty casual guilds to do the same content.

Maybe eventually P99 will get some of that fast respawn / instances raid content.

[bigbard1]

http://www.phinnykills.com

Damn, 17 guilds have cleared Vex Thal. Instances are incredible, allowing all these super neckbeard and dirty casual guilds to do the same content.

Maybe eventually P99 will get some of that fast respawn / instances raid content.

Cuckadoodledoo

[jcr4990]

People sitting out of raids collecting dkp to spend on items they werent even present for. So sick dawg

Fuck i loved stomping the shit out of your guild on open world. Shame I cant play anymore, gee wiz

You are very clearly behind the times on Phinny friend. Things are quite different than your memory of them.

[Hoozi]

People sitting out of raids collecting double dkp to spend on items they werent even present for. So sick dawg


Fixed it for you.

[Hoozi]

For us, that is not the case. We are awarded DKP by clock ticks, not by mobs killed. This means as the xpac goes on and we kill shit faster and faster we actually start spending more than is coming in. Where we were raiding til midnight 3 nights a week at xpac launch we are now done by 9 or 10 many nights and missing half a nights dkp.

Doesnt matter if your raids are shorter, raiding the same content more just means people are also spending less at the same time they are raiding / earning less. You already balanced it out by raid less and spending less, now you've imbalanced it by flooding your DKP system with double DKP

[nhdjoseywales]

Doesnt matter if your raids are shorter, raiding the same content more just means people are also spending less at the same time they are raiding / earning less. You already balanced it out by raid less and spending less, now you've imbalanced it by flooding your DKP system with double DKP

why do you assume people are spending less?

[BallzDeep]

Double DKP fucks people. If you're already geared and don't need any items, your not spending any of the double DKP you've earned (i.e. Saving it for PoP) . People who need the items still are bidding and bidding larger amounts due to extra DKP. Creating a larger margin between people who are semi new versus vets.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://www.phinnykills.com

Damn, 17 guilds have cleared Vex Thal. Instances are incredible, allowing all these super neckbeard and dirty casual guilds to do the same content.

Maybe eventually P99 will get some of that fast respawn / instances raid content.

I played eq2 in a competitive guild, usually in the top 10 of ww kills. This is both a blessing and a curse. One thing that happened was that players started measuring their epeen globally, across servers, and the SOE team made it possible to have kill rating across (Ithink) around 24 servers.

But the other thing that happened, it seemed to become harder to develop good rulesets and content for that approach to an mmo. It cost 50 bucks to switch servers, and apps like ACT allowed one to submit detailed data to any uber guild wanted to apply to. Talent started tilting toward a handful of guilds. Plus then, eq2 started to suck once they got rid of avatars.

So instancing is a blessing in high pop games. But maintaining high pop is pretty impossible anymore, imo. Which is why phinny will crash in pop after GoD. We will just do the newer server, or emulator. Because after GoD?

Why?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Let me clarify what I meant.

Instances solve some problems, and make an in-demand game easier to play. A worldwide stat system allows one to measure epeen on status boards as opposed to on-server. But eq2 really fell apart once avatars were removed, which were the only remaining contested uber-content in eq2. For many, some remnant of competitive gameplay, on-server, was all that kept them aboard.

Instancing ultimately kills an mmo. It is a bad solution to an abstract problem. IMO, EVE seems to be the only game to solve the problem -- just have one game world. Sadly, EVE is kind of very boring.

[Hoozi]

why do you assume people are spending less?

Are your tanks buying cloth in addition to plate or some shit?

After raiding the same instanced content for months on end, people get what they want and stop bidding on things, spending drops considerably as time goes on because bidding has decreased. Now that you've reached that point you just introduced double DKP earning on top of an already earnings inflated pool.

Grats on your inflated DKP system though, it sounds wonderful.

[Valakut]

Grats on your inflated DKP system though, it sounds wonderful.

Sounds like someone is copying Rustles dkp strats

[jcr4990]

There are a few differences in OGC's DKP system compared to most. For starters its impossible to buy scrap loot at 1 dkp. Minimum bid is 35 atm and I believe it scales up every expansion. You spend 35 dkp or the item gets banked/destroyed. One of several anti-inflation measures put in place. Also like Naudee said like 2 pages ago you don't earn DKP per boss its per 30 mins of raiding. So as you get more and more efficient at clearing the content and better geared you'll naturally spend less time raiding and earn less DKP unless you choose to kill additional targets to fill the time. But it doesn't seem like there's much content we're super interested in doing that we can't get done in our regular scheduled programming.

When I finished my app period I had somewhere around 700 dkp saved up. Highest cleric atm has like 1500 I think? Not exactly insurmountable. It's basically 2 months of raiding. Nobody has some insane pile of DKP such that nobody else will ever be able to catch them or outbid them on things. Also I think there's a max amount u can bid on a single item anyway. Doesn't happen often but I think it goes to officer discretion when you hit that point. Hasn't happened once since I joined that I'm aware of.

[Ravager]

or the item gets banked/destroyed. One of several anti-inflation measures put in place.
I don't care the reasons why it's done, this is just stupid when you consider the number of man hours invested in getting it to drop. It's kind of a middle finger to anyone who spends 2-5 hours of their freetime helping others get shit they want.

Besides, doesn't it just punish the 20%ers who weren't going to get the best loot anyway?

[nhdjoseywales]

Are your tanks buying cloth in addition to plate or some shit?

After raiding the same instanced content for months on end, people get what they want and stop bidding on things, spending drops considerably as time goes on because bidding has decreased. Now that you've reached that point you just introduced double DKP earning on top of an already earnings inflated pool.

Grats on your inflated DKP system though, it sounds wonderful.

we dont get months on end of xpacs, we get 12 weeks. 18 weeks if they fuck shit up and cant get instancing to work right. subtract from that a couple weeks at xpac launch when they totally fuck it up and take instances down or fuck up lockouts. We arent in Velious, mobs dont have 8 item loot tables that you can easily get all you want from them in 5 runs. half my wish list drops off the twin blobs in VT, in the past 3 weeks nothing on my lists have dropped off them in my split. i think its perfectly possible by pop i still wont have all my wish list items, they just dont drop often enough. good items still go for 300 dkp easily and bis stuff still hits 900 or so, we are spending a lot of dkp compared to whats currently coming in.
in the end, i dont know why you guys give a shit what we do with our dkp system, we are fine with it and you dont make a fuck in the equation so /shrugs

[nhdjoseywales]

I don't care the reasons why it's done, this is just stupid when you consider the number of man hours invested in getting it to drop. It's kind of a middle finger to anyone who spends 2-5 hours of their freetime helping others get shit they want.

Besides, doesn't it just punish the 20%ers who weren't going to get the best loot anyway?

20 percenters can bid min bid if its going to rot. if you dont think its worth min bid, its garbage and it can rot, who gives a shit. we have been using this dkp system since server launch, it works very well. all the rules are clearly laid out, it seems fair and evenly applied, not sure why you guys who dont know all the rules and havent used it for the past year think its so terribad.

[nhdjoseywales]

The only issue i can see with our dkp system is it prevents you from dragging your alts along for free rot loots. as someone with a shit ton of alts, im ok with this, if i want gear for them i can bid min on rots for them

[Daldaen]

Let me clarify what I meant.

Instances solve some problems, and make an in-demand game easier to play. A worldwide stat system allows one to measure epeen on status boards as opposed to on-server. But eq2 really fell apart once avatars were removed, which were the only remaining contested uber-content in eq2. For many, some remnant of competitive gameplay, on-server, was all that kept them aboard.

Instancing ultimately kills an mmo. It is a bad solution to an abstract problem. IMO, EVE seems to be the only game to solve the problem -- just have one game world. Sadly, EVE is kind of very boring.

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/aten-ha-ra-dead-to-faceless-insanity-at-92-hours-3-day-20-hours-from-launch.236963/page-2

This becomes the uber-content. The race to be the first/fastest to complete the newest releases content. That's how EQ has been since instancing. What keeps them around for the farm period inbetween expansions is the guild/friends you are hanging out with and gearing up for the next release.

Now granted, this thread is retarded because comparing instanced and open world raids is dumb. But yea, direct competition for mobs changed to become who can do it faster or more efficiently in their own instance, which is really a much better way of measuring your dick. Especially when you compare it to how it's done on this server...

I'd much rather see A/A posting their time from first kill to complete ToV clear rather than who won some races that week. I think at this point a full ToV clear could be done in less than 2 hours using the strats currently used, if you got in a rhthym. Likewise I think VP could probably be done in <30minutes if you got in a rhthym. Those would be things worth posting about. At the same time, the CSGs and Venerates of the world who couldn't give a flying fuck about kill times would be able to post "we raided NToV on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, crawling the zone like it was intended. Grats these guys on Vulak loot!"

Instances let you make the game the way you want it to be played, and if you want a challenge or competitive dickwagging fest, you can insert that into your gameplay.

[bigbard1]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/aten-ha-ra-dead-to-faceless-insanity-at-92-hours-3-day-20-hours-from-launch.236963/page-2

This becomes the uber-content. The race to be the first/fastest to complete the newest releases content. That's how EQ has been since instancing. What keeps them around for the farm period inbetween expansions is the guild/friends you are hanging out with and gearing up for the next release.

Now granted, this thread is retarded because comparing instanced and open world raids is dumb. But yea, direct competition for mobs changed to become who can do it faster or more efficiently in their own instance, which is really a much better way of measuring your dick. Especially when you compare it to how it's done on this server...

I'd much rather see A/A posting their time from first kill to complete ToV clear rather than who won some races that week. I think at this point a full ToV clear could be done in less than 2 hours using the strats currently used, if you got in a rhthym. Likewise I think VP could probably be done in <30minutes if you got in a rhthym. Those would be things worth posting about. At the same time, the CSGs and Venerates of the world who couldn't give a flying fuck about kill times would be able to post "we raided NToV on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, crawling the zone like it was intended. Grats these guys on Vulak loot!"

Instances let you make the game the way you want it to be played, and if you want a challenge or competitive dickwagging fest, you can insert that into your gameplay.
Nice book dude.

[khysanth]

http://i.imgur.com/IrQUcJn.jpg

65

[Ravager]

The only issue i can see with our dkp system is it prevents you from dragging your alts along for free rot loots. as someone with a shit ton of alts, im ok with this, if i want gear for them i can bid min on rots for them
So the guy who has a spare 35 DKP can gear his alts in raid loot while the 20%er saving up for the one thing he really wants (and will still probably be out bid) gets nothing? Sounds like a very fair system. I see no problems with it whatsoever...

[Susano]

So the guy who has a spare 35 DKP can gear his alts in raid loot while the 20%er saving up for the one thing he really wants (and will still probably be out bid) gets nothing? Sounds like a very fair system. I see no problems with it whatsoever...

As a 100%er, the only thing I want a 20%er to get is kicked from my raid. Rather have a 70%+ box in that slot.

[booter]

that's how you separate a casual guild from a hardcore one

[Ravager]

As a 100%er, the only thing I want a 20%er to get is kicked from my raid. Rather have a 70%+ box in that slot.
Sounds like you should make it clear you expect 70% raid attendance up front and kick anyone who doesn't make the first three raids of their app period and save everyone the time.

[jcr4990]

You can't base your guild around catering to the 20% raiders if u want to be successful. Not the end of the world if the 20% attendance raider doesn't get first priority on pixels. In fact I'd say most people wouldn't want them to. Except maybe the 20% raider themselves.

[bigbard1]

OGC has some real spergs in it. Made me uncomfortable that 40 year old men yell at people over Everquest.

Cringe

[bigbard1]

Except trollfuck I like that guy

[jcr4990]

OGC has some real spergs in it. Made me uncomfortable that 40 year old men yell at people over Everquest.

Cringe

Except trollfuck I like that guy

LOL where'd u hear that? We do have some occasional anger issues in mumble that's true.

Like u too bb

[Ravager]

You can't base your guild around catering to the 20% raiders if u want to be successful. Not the end of the world if the 20% attendance raider doesn't get first priority on pixels. In fact I'd say most people wouldn't want them to. Except maybe the 20% raider themselves.
I didn't say base it around the 20%ers, but the warm bodies count for something. You're not splitting raids because you have 100 people with 70%+ raid attendance. Letting shit rot that people spent hours of their time working for is just absurd. If nobody wants to pay the minimum DKP to buy it, at least put it up for /random.

[jcr4990]

I didn't say base it around the 20%ers, but the warm bodies count for something. You're not splitting raids because you have 100 people with 70%+ raid attendance. Letting shit rot that people spent hours of their time working for is just absurd. If nobody wants to pay the minimum DKP to buy it, at least put it up for /random.

Even 20%'ers can afford 35 dkp. Letting rot loot go for 1 dkp or free /random causes problems to arise. Namely people will make behind the curtain agreements to not bid against eachother in the interest of getting items for free. Say a Bard only item drops and all the bards talk to eachother and agree not to bid then it goes to /random and they can just get it for free. This kind of thing happens all the time and lots of classes already work together to avoid bidding eachother up and make agreements ahead of time on who will get what for cheap.

It sucks when loot gets destroyed but I understand why it does and given the alternatives (Cuck council/RNG rolls) I'd say DKP is a pretty damn solid tried and true loot distribution system. If you want to argue you should be able to buy items for 1 dkp and just have a decay system to prevent too much inflation. I'd be open to having that discussion cause I think there might be some merit to that. But you can't win em all. I think OGC is pretty fair.

[Susano]

I didn't say base it around the 20%ers, but the warm bodies count for something. You're not splitting raids because you have 100 people with 70%+ raid attendance. Letting shit rot that people spent hours of their time working for is just absurd. If nobody wants to pay the minimum DKP to buy it, at least put it up for /random.

Since the majority of raids on phinny are scheduled, if you can't maintain 70% attendance you're probably in the wrong guild for your schedule. Tons of people who couldn't cut it on p99 due to the volatility of the raid spawns maintain very high attendance on phinny.

Find a guild that raids on the two to three nights you are free and barring family disasters, you can easily make most of them.

[Ravager]

Even 20%'ers can afford 35 dkp. Letting rot loot go for 1 dkp or free /random causes problems to arise. Namely people will make behind the curtain agreements to not bid against eachother in the interest of getting items for free. Say a Bard only item drops and all the bards talk to eachother and agree not to bid then it goes to /random and they can just get it for free. This kind of thing happens all the time and lots of classes already work together to avoid bidding eachother up and make agreements ahead of time on who will get what for cheap.

It sucks when loot gets destroyed but I understand why it does and given the alternatives (Cuck council/RNG rolls) I'd say DKP is a pretty damn solid tried and true loot distribution system. If you want to argue you should be able to buy items for 1 dkp and just have a decay system to prevent too much inflation. I'd be open to having that discussion cause I think there might be some merit to that. But you can't win em all. I think OGC is pretty fair.
/random is fairer than DKP and loot council. Pure math is infallible. Any system beyond /random is just an ad hoc system that people rationalize as fair because they think that one person at any given event should count more than another person, when the truth of the matter is all count the same for a particular encounter. If you don't want to share with someone, don't invite them along. Anything else is just taking advantage of them, even more so when you let loot rot.

[Kushie]

Raindrops, drop tops
Smokin' on cookie in the hotbox
Fuckin' on your bitch she a thot, thot
Cookin' up dope in the crockpot

[nhdjoseywales]

random is for retards.

alts dont bid against mains. if two alts bid each other up to 200 and a main chimes in and wants it for 35, main gets it for 35.

35 dkp is like less than 4 hours raiding, if you cant manage that you dont deserve loot so fuck off.

[Ravager]

random is for retards.

alts dont bid against mains. if two alts bid each other up to 200 and a main chimes in and wants it for 35, main gets it for 35.

35 dkp is like less than 4 hours raiding, if you cant manage that you dont deserve loot so fuck off.
The dice don't play favorites. People do. Everything else is just rationalization. It's fine if you don't mind being a player or being played, just don't call it fair.

[jcr4990]

The dice don't play favorites. People do. Everything else is just rationalization. It's fine if you don't mind being a player or being played, just don't call it fair.

Explain to me how DKP is unfair? Is earning money at your job to buy things that other people without jobs can't afford unfair? More time/effort invested = more loot is the ultimate goal of distributing loot imo. If u think /random achieves that best you're a special kind of stupid that I've never even heard of.

[booter]

lol @ destroying loot people can actually use

[nhdjoseywales]

lol @ destroying loot people can actually use

if you could have used it you should have spent less than 4 hours dkp on it.

[Ravager]

Or joined a guild that doesn't shit on its players.

[Ravager]

Explain to me how DKP is unfair? Is earning money at your job to buy things that other people without jobs can't afford unfair?.
I did in another thread. Your job analogy doesn't compare. I'm not an economist, statistician, bayesian rationalist or even that good at math and logical arguments. But I know the argument that DKP is fair is unsound. I'll try to explain it, will probably fail to make anyone understand and get trolled in the process, but here it is anyway:

Dollars in the real world to spend on things in the real world are not the same as DKP in the virtual world to spend on virtual things because nobody is standing in line at McDonald's bidding against each other for a cheeseburger.

You don't go to work with 30 other people just so that one guy gets a cheeseburger, purchased with virtual bucks.

More time/effort invested = more loot is the ultimate goal of distributing loot imo.
More time/effort invested = more loot with /random. Laws of Probability are universal laws. You can't argue them away. If you /random more, you win more loot on average.

DKP does not distribute as evenly as /random. This is a fact. People who don't show up to raids as often won't spend their DKP on the shit that (apparently you stupidly let rot) because they are saving up for higher value items. These are the 20%ers or less maybe? Or if you're elitist, the 50%ers, since you kicked all of the 20%ers. It doesn't matter where you shift the line, someone is getting shafted. Anyway, the 35 minimum DKP loot is getting scooped up by the top tier, because the lower tiers are saving their DKP for the things they want, but the top tier is still getting the majority of the top loot as well as the bottom loot, because they can afford it, so the guy on the bottom is getting shafted.
If u think /random achieves that best you're a special kind of stupid that I've never even heard of
If you're not looking at the math, you need to re-evaluate who the special kind of stupid one is. Post the numbers of the last three months of DKP accrued, raids attended and loot distributed and we'll see who's right. I bet Clue's numbers are more in line for what people should be getting when it comes to time invested.

[Juryiel]

More time/effort invested = more loot with /random. Laws of Probability are universal laws. You can't argue them away. If you /random more, you win more loot on average.



You can definitely argue with badly applied math though. Sure, more loot with more time invested will happen with /random, but not in a way that is always proportional to the time invested. Some raids have a different amount of loot per unit time than others. And sometimes that might even be 0 loot per many hours invested if an encounter is failed.

In addition, this can be further abused by people showing up late but before loot has dropped.

The whole reason DKP exists, at least in theory, is to equalize loot currency per time, otherwise everyone would indeed be using /random rather than inventing complicated systems.

[Juryiel]

Oh right, another issue would be that if it's some raid that has no loot for my class, or from which I have all the loot already, no reason for me to show up - that effort does not transfer over to other raids.

[jcr4990]

I did in another thread. Your job analogy doesn't compare. I'm not an economist, statistician, bayesian rationalist or even that good at math and logical arguments. But I know the argument that DKP is fair is unsound. I'll try to explain it, will probably fail to make anyone understand and get trolled in the process, but here it is anyway:

Dollars in the real world to spend on things in the real world are not the same as DKP in the virtual world to spend on virtual things because nobody is standing in line at McDonald's bidding against each other for a cheeseburger.

You don't go to work with 30 other people just so that one guy gets a cheeseburger, purchased with virtual bucks.


More time/effort invested = more loot with /random. Laws of Probability are universal laws. You can't argue them away. If you /random more, you win more loot on average.

DKP does not distribute as evenly as /random. This is a fact. People who don't show up to raids as often won't spend their DKP on the shit that (apparently you stupidly let rot) because they are saving up for higher value items. These are the 20%ers or less maybe? Or if you're elitist, the 50%ers, since you kicked all of the 20%ers. It doesn't matter where you shift the line, someone is getting shafted. Anyway, the 35 minimum DKP loot is getting scooped up by the top tier, because the lower tiers are saving their DKP for the things they want, but the top tier is still getting the majority of the top loot as well as the bottom loot, because they can afford it, so the guy on the bottom is getting shafted.

If you're not looking at the math, you need to re-evaluate who the special kind of stupid one is. Post the numbers of the last three months of DKP accrued, raids attended and loot distributed and we'll see who's right. I bet Clue's numbers are more in line for what people should be getting when it comes to time invested.

Swing and a miss imo

Let me know when you find a halfway decent raid guild in any mmo that thinks /randoming loot is a good idea. We can all sit around and nitpick at the downfalls of DKP (and there are some) but like you said the facts don't lie. There's a reason nearly every major guild uses the same system (or a variation of it)

[Ravager]

You can definitely argue with badly applied math though. Sure, more loot with more time invested will happen with /random, but not in a way that is always proportional to the time invested. Some raids have a different amount of loot per unit time than others. And sometimes that might even be 0 loot per many hours invested if an encounter is failed.
True, but first you need to decide if you want to talk about per hour invested or per encounter invested. The 0's balance because on a fail, nobody is getting loot.

In addition, this can be further abused by people showing up late but before loot has dropped.
If this is a problem, it can be mitigated with a simple rule instigated by leadership - "If you're not here 15 minutes at the start of the raid, don't show up and expect a /random"
The whole reason DKP exists, at least in theory, is to equalize loot currency per time, otherwise everyone would indeed be using /random rather than inventing complicated systems.
The whole reason DKP exists is because some people think their time is more valuable than someone else's and should count for more. /random naturally takes care of who shows up for more loot gets more loot. If you took the same 50 people raiding together for 1 year on purely /random, the people who showed up more would have more to show for it. Would the guy who showed up for the most raids have won Uber Item of Ultimate Penis Envy? Possibly not, but he'd have had as fair a shake to get it as anyone else without putting his thumb on the scale.

As soon as you build a system that favors one outcome over another, you can throw fairness out the window.

[Ravager]

Oh right, another issue would be that if it's some raid that has no loot for my class, or from which I have all the loot already, no reason for me to show up - that effort does not transfer over to other raids.
Never heard of quid pro quo? It goes both ways you know.

[Ravager]

Swing and a miss imo

Let me know when you find a halfway decent raid guild in any mmo that thinks /randoming loot is a good idea. We can all sit around and nitpick at the downfalls of DKP (and there are some) but like you said the facts don't lie. There's a reason nearly every major guild uses the same system (or a variation of it)
The reason is most people don't bother to learn the math.

[Juryiel]

True, but first you need to decide if you want to talk about per hour invested or per encounter invested. The 0's balance because on a fail, nobody is getting loot.

If this is a problem, it can be mitigated with a simple rule instigated by leadership - "If you're not here 15 minutes at the start of the raid, don't show up and expect a /random"

The whole reason DKP exists is because some people think their time is more valuable than someone else's and should count for more. /random naturally takes care of who shows up for more loot gets more loot. If you took the same 50 people raiding together for 1 year on purely /random, the people who showed up more would have more to show for it. Would the guy who showed up for the most raids have won Uber Item of Ultimate Penis Envy? Possibly not, but he'd have had as fair a shake to get it as anyone else without putting his thumb on the scale.

As soon as you build a system that favors one outcome over another, you can throw fairness out the window.

The thing with fails is that it leads to people only showing up on 'farming' raids or when a new raid is close to being figured out or won, and it makes it hard to progress. As far as the 15 minute rule, sure you could introduce this. But then this hurts raiding because people who are late won't show up to fill up the ranks of people who may have to log. It also disallows people starting raids early to clear the easy stuff, etc.

You add more rules and can come up with some sort of complicated system to deal with all of this of course - and by the end of this process you will realize you just build your own version of DKP.

The whole point is though, with random not all required effort is rewarded, and some effort is rewarded more than other effort.

And I also understand the quid pro quo thing, but I also understand human nature. You can try to build a system around ideals about what people should do, or you can build on that is practical and works because it's based on what people WILL do.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

yeah double DKP sounds double awful.

Not something you would implement unless you had very high turnover and lots of members with very little DKP/gear. Well, I suppose the other option is that the officers making that call are mongoloids.

only reason for double dkp is being incapable of doing the simple math to do quarterly adjustments to mean of dkp totals. aka the hallmark of guilds you should not join.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/aten-ha-ra-dead-to-faceless-insanity-at-92-hours-3-day-20-hours-from-launch.236963/page-2

This becomes the uber-content. The race to be the first/fastest to complete the newest releases content. That's how EQ has been since instancing. What keeps them around for the farm period inbetween expansions is the guild/friends you are hanging out with and gearing up for the next release.

Now granted, this thread is retarded because comparing instanced and open world raids is dumb. But yea, direct competition for mobs changed to become who can do it faster or more efficiently in their own instance, which is really a much better way of measuring your dick. Especially when you compare it to how it's done on this server...

I'd much rather see A/A posting their time from first kill to complete ToV clear rather than who won some races that week. I think at this point a full ToV clear could be done in less than 2 hours using the strats currently used, if you got in a rhthym. Likewise I think VP could probably be done in <30minutes if you got in a rhthym. Those would be things worth posting about. At the same time, the CSGs and Venerates of the world who couldn't give a flying fuck about kill times would be able to post "we raided NToV on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, crawling the zone like it was intended. Grats these guys on Vulak loot!"

Instances let you make the game the way you want it to be played, and if you want a challenge or competitive dickwagging fest, you can insert that into your gameplay.


I hear ya. But I'm just saying instancing is a double edged sword. I am not sure there is any good solution. I'm going to be an outlier and say eq2 actually did an ok job first few years of balancing contested and instanced content. That may be the way to go.

[Ravager]

but I also understand human nature. You can try to build a system around ideals about what people should do, or you can build on that is practical and works because it's based on what people WILL do.
People fuck everything up. That's why /random is the only fair way to go. You can't fix a bias with another bias. It just doesn't work that way. If you know that a particular outcome will happen 70% of the time and you try to compensate for that by guessing which outcome will happen with a 70% rate, you're only going to be right 49% of the time, where if you just said, "This will happen 70% of the time." You'd be right 70% of the time.

And in the case with DKP, a handful of individuals prosper at the expense of a majority that were promised fairness.

The DKP argument goes, put in more time, get more loot, even loot you want. But I bet if you looked at the numbers of time spent vs. loot won vs. loot wanted, it'll be very much disproportionate. How many people bid on Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue? Only one gets it. How many people didn't get it? I bet the ones that didn't get it didn't start bidding on other crap, because they still want the Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue. That means all of the DKP they have is dormant. Just lying in wait, while other DKP out there is scooping up other loot (unless your idiot guild is letting that shit rot) so now who is really getting more loot for their time?

I really want to see the numbers. I predict it's not as even or fair as you think.

[Juryiel]

People fuck everything up. That's why /random is the only fair way to go. You can't fix a bias with another bias. It just doesn't work that way. If you know that a particular outcome will happen 70% of the time and you try to compensate for that by guessing which outcome will happen with a 70% rate, you're only going to be right 49% of the time, where if you just said, "This will happen 70% of the time." You'd be right 70% of the time.
......

I really want to see the numbers. I predict it's not as even or fair as you think.

When you make that argument with me, it is a strawman because I do not consider DKP perfectly fair. And DKP systems vary across the board so some are more fair than others. But MOST of those systems are more fair than random, and this is more my argument. You ask for numbers, but I would like you to generate numbers of /random, and include people's behavior in this simulation, as well as the structure of Everquest. You naively imagine that this will be some nice and flat distribution but both of these things individually make this distribution totally skewed, and it's much worse when you combine them together. So I think most people who support DKP don't necessarily think it's perfect, but they all think it's much better than random.

And again just to give a direct example of one of the many, MANY things that make your naively conceived behavior of /random actually be bad:

Imagine you have a guild of 10 people and 5 of them raid 100% and another 5 of them raid 20%. They spend 20 game hours figuring out an encounter and getting 0 loot. So the hardcore people invest 100 man-hours and the casual people invest 20 man-hours. The hardcore people have invested 80 man-hours more, and both groups got the same amount of loot, 0. After the first successful completion, the hardcore and the casuals will have a chance to get loot proportional to their attendance for that ONE raid, but if you take into account all the previous raids, the casuals get a much better loot to time ratio, and the hardcore don't catch up to their fair share for a number of raids after. They actually will never get to their fair share, as it's bounded by the number of man hours spent on failures. But even to get close, it then takes several raids. If you're doing difficult or new things often, you can see how this shafts people who invest more time.

TL;DR you are applying 'math' but you are applying it to some other idealized / simple system, not to EQ, and without consideration of the actual structure of investment vs reward present in the actual game. If you are going to talk about people doing the math, you should lead by example and do it right.

[jcr4990]

People fuck everything up. That's why /random is the only fair way to go. You can't fix a bias with another bias. It just doesn't work that way. If you know that a particular outcome will happen 70% of the time and you try to compensate for that by guessing which outcome will happen with a 70% rate, you're only going to be right 49% of the time, where if you just said, "This will happen 70% of the time." You'd be right 70% of the time.

And in the case with DKP, a handful of individuals prosper at the expense of a majority that were promised fairness.

The DKP argument goes, put in more time, get more loot, even loot you want. But I bet if you looked at the numbers of time spent vs. loot won vs. loot wanted, it'll be very much disproportionate. How many people bid on Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue? Only one gets it. How many people didn't get it? I bet the ones that didn't get it didn't start bidding on other crap, because they still want the Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue. That means all of the DKP they have is dormant. Just lying in wait, while other DKP out there is scooping up other loot (unless your idiot guild is letting that shit rot) so now who is really getting more loot for their time?

I really want to see the numbers. I predict it's not as even or fair as you think.

I stopped posting links to the upgrades I was getting because its happening so often that I got bored taking screenshots and cropping them. To be completely honest I don't give a single fuck whether over a long period of time I'd get more loot with /random or dkp. I can tell you that DKP feels INFINITELY more fair across the board than loot council ever did and I literally got more/better loot in 1 night than 3-4 months of LC raiding.

Now that u mention it though I raided with a guild in WoW for a bit that was all /random for everything and it blew dicks. Pretty much everyone in the guild that wasn't the GM/Officers hated it and stubborn leadership refused to implement something reasonable. I ended up leaving and bringing around a dozen frustrated friends with me to a DKP guild. I still remember trying to get T6 shoulders on my hunter for like an eternity and I was basically the only main hunter in the guild that didn't get them yet and some shitty app that just got full member who barely even showed up beat me on a roll on the only pair that dropped in like 3 months or some shit. I got tells from like half the raid feeling bad for me that night lol. Random can go fuck itself just as hard as LC in my book. Glad u enjoy it tho.

[bigbard1]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I swear to god. The fact that apparently many of you do not know the only way a long term dkp system is fair is if you do quarterly adjustments to the mean makes me feel I have come upon a tribe of pigmies in some rainforest, who have not yet discovered you can count on the other hand, too.

Every non-bs dkp guild does quarterly adjustments, to drag down high earners (which encourages spending) and boost newer members (to fend off discouragement) and also imposes a dkp decay rate so people can't disappear for weeks and still return top o' the heap.

I thought this was basic for any rational dkp guild. Otherwise, it turns into a scam pure and simple for older members' benefits.

[Red_Messiah]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

Jesus I hope you're not a druid too

[Red_Messiah]

Randoming loot causes as much drama as anything else - got 3 necros all waiting on that last piece for their epic?

Tell me the guy waiting the longest isn't going to get upset that the guy playing an alt who didn't make his character til 3-4 months ago wins the piece. While his 1-2 year wait continues...

There's no perfect system.

[AzzarTheGod]

Randoming loot causes as much drama as anything else - got 3 necros all waiting on that last piece for their epic?

Tell me the guy waiting the longest isn't going to get upset that the guy playing an alt who didn't make his character til 3-4 months ago wins the piece. While his 1-2 year wait continues...

There's no perfect system.

This. The random system is horrific

[Bruno]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

Lol'd. What guild are you guys in?

[jcr4990]

The everquest gods have punished me by putting Daldaen in my guild. What have i done to deserve this.

http://www.modestman.club/

[jcr4990]

Lol'd. What guild are you guys in?

They're in EoE

Unfortunately

[Ravager]

Randoming loot causes as much drama as anything else - got 3 necros all waiting on that last piece for their epic?

Tell me the guy waiting the longest isn't going to get upset that the guy playing an alt who didn't make his character til 3-4 months ago wins the piece. While his 1-2 year wait continues...

There's no perfect system.
If there's drama, that's a problem with the person, not the system.

You make an argument about 3 hypothetical necros waiting for the last piece of his epic. Is the epic the only piece of loot these necros have a chance of getting or will ever aspire to get? Is the last piece of the epic the only necro usable raid loot that drops anywhere in the game? Who says every necro is entitled to their epic? Certainly not anyone on these boards.

Put your hypothetical situation of 3 necros waiting 1-2 years on their last epic piece in your DKP world -- the wait continues just the same for 2 of the 3 necros, except 2 of the 3 necros never had a chance at getting it in the first place. If I were those necros, I'd take a 1 in 3 chance over a 0 chance any day.

A guild can agree as an entity what mains can roll on and what alts can roll on, just like a pick up group in seb can agree to give the first gem that drops to the cleric. But who needs social contracts when DKP can magically do all of that for you, amiright?

[Ravager]

You ask for numbers, but I would like you to generate numbers of /random, and include people's behavior in this simulation, as well as the structure of Everquest.
I said I'd like to see some numbers of a DKP guild vs a Clue-like guild, because I believe it'd be interesting and put to rest a lot of this argument. I did not mean for you to personally go and fetch me those numbers. This is RnF, I don't expect anyone to go to such lengths.

And again just to give a direct example of one of the many, MANY things that make your naively conceived behavior of /random actually be bad:

Imagine you have a guild of 10 people and 5 of them raid 100% and another 5 of them raid 20%. They spend 20 game hours figuring out an encounter and getting 0 loot. So the hardcore people invest 100 man-hours and the casual people invest 20 man-hours. The hardcore people have invested 80 man-hours more, and both groups got the same amount of loot, 0.

After the first successful completion, the hardcore and the casuals will have a chance to get loot proportional to their attendance for that ONE raid, but if you take into account all the previous raids, the casuals get a much better loot to time ratio, and the hardcore don't catch up to their fair share for a number of raids after. They actually will never get to their fair share, as it's bounded by the number of man hours spent on failures. But even to get close, it then takes several raids. If you're doing difficult or new things often, you can see how this shafts people who invest more time.
You make a fair point, but I would argue that the 100%ers are still getting more loot over the long haul, because the 20% probably isn't answering those 4am batphones, attending the mid-day raids, etc. The 20%ers are more likely to be fighting over the same loot as the other 20%ers at prime-time, leaving the off-hour raid loot to the 100%ers.

Also, why should failure count? I've certainly never been rewarded for any of my failures.

[icedwards]

Your entire argument for /random assumes everyone is 100% reasonable (they aren't). The day some low RA or new member wins an epic drop or chase BIS over your neckbeards will be the day those neckbeards start looking for other options. The reality is the officers would rather appease those high RA members who are more likely to be the ones who actually get things done in the guild.

[Bruno]

Never in my combined probably 10+ years of playing this game have I been in a guild dumb enough to use /rand as their primary loot distribution process. I mean, you gotta be fuckin' trolling to be serious about that.

[Cecily]

We had a day 1 applicant win a WToV Chain BP last night. Non-dkp raid and pick 3 random was the agreed upon rules going in, but yeah... That's random randomness. Not a fan of that system. But a second BP dropped on our last kill and my now ranger's armor matches so.. Yay.

[Hoozi]

Everyone loves random when it works for them, but as soon as it doesnt work out in their favor, then its the worst thing ever.

[Susano]

Ravager is either caught in one of those situations where you know you're wrong and just run with it for arguments sake or he's just really dumb.

Third option is trolling, he'll probably fall back on that to try and save face eventually.

"Remember that time I argued for days about something retarded, I sure got them rustled!"

[Raev]

People underestimate the variance of random loot. Once I lost 17 fungi tunic rolls in a row - in 3 man groups. Another time I won an IP, Torpor, another IP, and the Prince sword in Chardok - 4 out of like 6 rolls in a 12 man raid. I gave the last two away to Xoquil and Lavarian because I was feeling so bad at that point. It's simply a terrible system.

I am not a big fan of DKP either. I hate the fact that I will get a Monk item for either 500 or 1 DKP depending on whether or not my other monk pals show up. There are all sorts of opportunities for shenanigans there as pointed out previously. And lastly, you get the retards who insist on hoarding DKP for months while running around in rags to get That One Status Item rather than spending it on 10 other items that would make their character much better. But DKP is much better than random.

My favorite system is Loot Factor: every item is assigned a fixed value, and the system sums your total loot value over the past few months and divides it by your total attendance. This solves most of these problems, though I think any system needs a loot council override here and there to prevent major idiocy.

[bigbard1]

People underestimate the variance of random loot. Once I lost 17 fungi tunic rolls in a row - in 3 man groups. Another time I won an IP, Torpor, another IP, and the Prince sword in Chardok - 4 out of like 6 rolls in a 12 man raid. I gave the last two away to Xoquil and Lavarian because I was feeling so bad at that point. It's simply a terrible system.

I am not a big fan of DKP either. I hate the fact that I will get a Monk item for either 500 or 1 DKP depending on whether or not my other monk pals show up. There are all sorts of opportunities for shenanigans there as pointed out previously. And lastly, you get the retards who insist on hoarding DKP for months while running around in rags to get That One Status Item rather than spending it on 10 other items that would make their character much better. But DKP is much better than random.

My favorite system is Loot Factor: every item is assigned a fixed value, and the system sums your total loot value over the past few months and divides it by your total attendance. This solves most of these problems, though I think any system needs a loot council override here and there to prevent major idiocy.
Did anyone read this?

[Cecily]

People underestimate the variance of random loot. Once I lost 17 fungi tunic rolls in a row - in 3 man groups. Another time I won an IP, Torpor, another IP, and the Prince sword in Chardok - 4 out of like 6 rolls in a 12 man raid. I gave the last two away to Xoquil and Lavarian because I was feeling so bad at that point. It's simply a terrible system.

It took me 21 rolls in mostly 6 person groups to win my hiero. Got my fungi on my first. Random is feast or famine. DKP more or less allows an even distribution of pixels and sets a limiting factor lacking in loot council or random. But seriously is anyone dumb enough to use random loot distribution past like.. Seb groups?

[Fasttimes]

It took me 21 rolls in mostly 6 person groups to win my hiero. Got my fungi on my first. Random is feast or famine. DKP more or less allows an even distribution of pixels and sets a limiting factor lacking in loot council or random. But seriously is anyone dumb enough to use random loot distribution past like.. Seb groups?

Iirc anon does it as there loot system

[Fasttimes]

Or clue one of them

[Raev]

Did anyone read this?

Some people can read and comprehend more than 160 characters, even if you can't.

[jcr4990]

Ravager is either caught in one of those situations where you know you're wrong and just run with it for arguments sake or he's just really dumb.

Third option is trolling, he'll probably fall back on that to try and save face eventually.

"Remember that time I argued for days about something retarded, I sure got them rustled!"

This

[Juryiel]

Also, why should failure count? I've certainly never been rewarded for any of my failures.

Because you need the failure to learn the encounter. Without the failures you will never win. And saying you are not rewarded for failures is also a lie. If you are not failing you are not pushing yourself hard enough. The reward for trying hard things and failing, repeatedly, is typically the learning you need to do to move higher and get those phat loot rewards. The people who put in the time to learn are carrying those who don't, and should be rewarded for it.

Another interesting point is that Raev brought up and in the context of random drift due to high variability of /random. Although in the long term random processes can work, in the short term they can drift massively. Now imagine that interaction with censoring effects that cut out parts of the distribution, like when people leave guilds or quit EQ or, because they just happened to get all the stuff they need, they stop showing up as much. In other words, yes random is 'flat' in an ideal setting, but it's not systematically flat, and for short periods it can drift. DKP tries (though it also fails I'm sure) to create a distribution that is flat systematically, like each person gets (1 x unit of effort) in order, rather than 1 person gets 10, another person gets 3, another person gets 0, and then over time waiting for that to balance out to flat. Especially problematic when that person who got 10 stops showing up cuz they don't need anything, or maybe just because he got bored of EQ.

But again, all these examples are just to say that random has a lot of issues too, and especially so in a system that has the structure of EQ, where people change guilds or leave EQ, loot quality changes with time, some people can get their gear all in one raid while others have to get one piece from each dungeon, the amount of loot per hour can change for a given dungeon, and can be as low as 0 loot per hour, etc. If you convolve a crazy ass function with the flat function of uniform random, you get a crazy ass function in return, not a flat one.

Maybe you don't think failure should be rewarded - but I do, and I think it should be rewarded more so than just showing up to farming raids because it's more difficult and is what leads to the success later on - the farming is not leading to the success. Maybe you don't care that due to variability someone got 10 things in 3 raids then vanished, but I do. And I also don't want to wait a year for the distribution to get flat given the variability it has, I want to systematically force it to be as flat as I can, because people leave EQ or the guild over that time period and loot quality also changes during that time period so at any given snapshot in time you may have massive gear differences, even the 'number' of loots is the same in the long term. Maybe you don't want to incentivize specific behaviors like going to raids even though no loot is there to be had for you, but I do. So you can use /random if you want but I will always prefer DKP - and if you note, the stuff I list are things that are aligned with raiding guilds, for which DKP is often needed to encourage and reward behaviors tied to fast progression, rather than leaving it up to hope that people will be self-motivated enough to work as hard toward that.

And to your point about DKP being about cheating - I'm not sure if you've ever ran a DKP system yourself, but I have, and let me tell you it is super annoying especially at the time on live when we had to remember to take the right logs in the right way during hectic new encounters, copy paste them in the system correctly, fix any errors, deal with adjusting stuff that has been bought, sit around taking bids (our system wasn't DKP it was a custom bidding system). It was just a massive headache and basically any time it was my turn to run it for a raid that was easily 50% of what I did during that raid. Loot upgrades too quickly in progression guilds for this time commitment to develop and run a DKP system just to poach a few extra loots for yourself to be worth it.

[bigbard1]

Because you need the failure to learn the encounter. Without the failures you will never win. And saying you are not rewarded for failures is also a lie. If you are not failing you are not pushing yourself hard enough. The reward for trying hard things and failing, repeatedly, is typically the learning you need to do to move higher and get those phat loot rewards. The people who put in the time to learn are carrying those who don't, and should be rewarded for it.

Another interesting point is that Raev brought up and in the context of random drift due to high variability of /random. Although in the long term random processes can work, in the short term they can drift massively. Now imagine that interaction with censoring effects that cut out parts of the distribution, like when people leave guilds or quit EQ or, because they just happened to get all the stuff they need, they stop showing up as much. In other words, yes random is 'flat' in an ideal setting, but it's not systematically flat, and for short periods it can drift. DKP tries (though it also fails I'm sure) to create a distribution that is flat systematically, like each person gets (1 x unit of effort) in order, rather than 1 person gets 10, another person gets 3, another person gets 0, and then over time waiting for that to balance out to flat. Especially problematic when that person who got 10 stops showing up cuz they don't need anything, or maybe just because he got bored of EQ.

But again, all these examples are just to say that random has a lot of issues too, and especially so in a system that has the structure of EQ, where people change guilds or leave EQ, loot quality changes with time, some people can get their gear all in one raid while others have to get one piece from each dungeon, the amount of loot per hour can change for a given dungeon, and can be as low as 0 loot per hour, etc. If you convolve a crazy ass function with the flat function of uniform random, you get a crazy ass function in return, not a flat one.

Maybe you don't think failure should be rewarded - but I do, and I think it should be rewarded more so than just showing up to farming raids because it's more difficult and is what leads to the success later on - the farming is not leading to the success. Maybe you don't care that due to variability someone got 10 things in 3 raids then vanished, but I do. And I also don't want to wait a year for the distribution to get flat given the variability it has, I want to systematically force it to be as flat as I can, because people leave EQ or the guild over that time period and loot quality also changes during that time period so at any given snapshot in time you may have massive gear differences, even the 'number' of loots is the same in the long term. Maybe you don't want to incentivize specific behaviors like going to raids even though no loot is there to be had for you, but I do. So you can use /random if you want but I will always prefer DKP - and if you note, the stuff I list are things that are aligned with raiding guilds, for which DKP is often needed to encourage and reward behaviors tied to fast progression, rather than leaving it up to hope that people will be self-motivated enough to work as hard toward that.

And to your point about DKP being about cheating - I'm not sure if you've ever ran a DKP system yourself, but I have, and let me tell you it is super annoying especially at the time on live when we had to remember to take the right logs in the right way during hectic new encounters, copy paste them in the system correctly, fix any errors, deal with adjusting stuff that has been bought, sit around taking bids (our system wasn't DKP it was a custom bidding system). It was just a massive headache and basically any time it was my turn to run it for a raid that was easily 50% of what I did during that raid. Loot upgrades too quickly in progression guilds for this time commitment to develop and run a DKP system just to poach a few extra loots for yourself to be worth it.

What
The
Fuck

[Nibblewitz]

While we can break down these large posts and feed them into the dumpster, the fire will burn much brighter and hotter if we stick to short shitposts.

[Red_Messiah]

Set yourself free with eq pvp rather than type essays about loot systems and stupid shit

[Hoozi]

What
The
Fuck

[jcr4990]

What
The
Fuck

I read most posts that people bitch about being tldr. Some kids on the internet see 2 paragraphs and get triggered.

HOWEVER this time u have a point. I didn't read this one.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

And to your point about DKP being about cheating - I'm not sure if you've ever ran a DKP system yourself, but I have, and let me tell you it is super annoying especially at the time on live when we had to remember to take the right logs in the right way during hectic new encounters, copy paste them in the system correctly, fix any errors, deal with adjusting stuff that has been bought, sit around taking bids (our system wasn't DKP it was a custom bidding system). It was just a massive headache and basically any time it was my turn to run it for a raid that was easily 50% of what I did during that raid.

Maybe I was lucky. I only ran during live with guilds with fellow engineers from NASA. Some of those dudes still used slide rules, but hey, they managed to keep the count correct.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Just as a side note, for a brief period I ran with a Russian guild, back before the wall fell. They used a loot council. Just saying.

[Juryiel]

Maybe I was lucky. I only ran during live with guilds with fellow engineers from NASA. Some of those dudes still used slide rules, but hey, they managed to keep the count correct.

Haha did you ask them how much time per raid they were spending to make sure that was the case though? :) Things did progressively get better as the web and dealing with databases improved, but I think the point that DKP is too annoying to be motivated just cheating purposes stands. One can probably come up with far easier methods if he were so inclined.

[bigbard1]

I read most posts that people bitch about being tldr. Some kids on the internet see 2 paragraphs and get triggered.

HOWEVER this time u have a point. I didn't read this one.

It was really bad on mobile.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Haha did you ask them how much time per raid they were spending to make sure that was the case though? :) Things did progressively get better as the web and dealing with databases improved, but I think the point that DKP is too annoying to be motivated just cheating purposes stands. One can probably come up with far easier methods if he were so inclined.

Those guys lived for that stuff. At that point, there was a reference guild whose site was used for base loot values for items (Triton?) to determine starting bids. One officer then managed as bidding was done in /gu for funz and getting drunk raiders to dump points, and then a screenie was just taken and was compiled next day. Another
guildie watched the guild website to announce who had points.

It was not a hassle. And, /gu open bidding wars were fun as hell.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I still do not understand what you mean by "cheating purposes" btw.

Cheating or exploitation of the system disappears if you do quarterly adjustments, point decays, and point freezes for non-attendance.

[Juryiel]

I still do not understand what you mean by "cheating purposes" btw.

Cheating or exploitation of the system disappears if you do quarterly adjustments, point decays, and point freezes for non-attendance.

Ravager just made a point that the whole reason DKP is used is to basically exploit low attendance players or something along those lines. My point was that DKP is way more complex system than is needed to do that, if that's your main goal :)

Haha glad your guildies loved running the system though, it's always good when people trying to keep 40-80 people organized in some way have an easy time.

[Red_Messiah]

Ravager just made a point that the whole reason DKP is used is to basically exploit low attendance players or something along those lines. My point was that DKP is way more complex system than is needed to do that, if that's your main goal :)

Haha glad your guildies loved running the system though, it's always good when people trying to keep 40-80 people organized in some way have an easy time.

Every guild has a fairly tight core of old players who have good raid attendance. Whatever system other than randoming, loot will always gravitate towards them (and their alts)...particularly if its a "guild first" when an item drops.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

sigh. you guys are proving my point.

do you even know what I mean by quarterly adjustment or point freezing?

My entire point is, the solution is ez, and one should never jopin a guild that does not utilize these solutions.

So I ask again, do you even know what I mean by quarterly adjustments and the other terms? Otherwise, you are just showing you do know understand how fair dkp systems work.

[Red_Messiah]

doesn't matter, the existing systems people have been using exist so they're not going to switch

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://i.imgur.com/hVy7NJZ.jpgso here is how I see it. You either understand what I mean by quarterly adjustments and point freezes/decays, or you admit you don't know shit about how healthy dkp systems work. Sorry. That is how it looks from my station, Gene. Here, have some Tranya.

[Juryiel]

We used various adjustments and other mechanisms like you suggest back in like 2001 or whatever year it was - frankly no one cared enough to try to make a system that was 100% perfect, but these did help a lot as you suggest. It was pretty close given the amount of effort and everyone felt it was 'fair enough'. I can only imagine what would have happened instead with /random

[Bruno]

Bored as fuck at work. This thread is no longer entertaining. Need some BDA updates.

[jcr4990]

Bored as fuck at work. This thread is no longer entertaining. Need some BDA updates.

I don't know for sure how BDA is doing. But if I was a betting man I'd say: Raiding 5-6 nights a week official or otherwise. Taking 5+ hours to clear VT with 50+ people cause half the raid is AFK at any given time and there's a 30 minute officer circlejerk deciding who gets loot after every boss. Giving 99% of the best drops to officers/close friends of the council and occasionally tossing someone else a bone so they can point to that when LC integrity is called into question. Turnover rate starting to increase as people get more and more disenfranchised with how things are run and as the novelty of raiding on a new server is wearing off. Recruitment is increasing to keep the ship afloat. Still using stoneage Ventrilo as the primary means of raid communication instead of upgrading to a vastly superior (and free) modern voip like Discord.

Any BDA want to tell me how close I was? Do I get a prize if I was 100% accurate?

[Red_Messiah]

I don't know for sure how BDA is doing. But if I was a betting man I'd say: Raiding 5-6 nights a week official or otherwise. Taking 5+ hours to clear VT with 50+ people cause half the raid is AFK at any given time and there's a 30 minute officer circlejerk deciding who gets loot after every boss. Giving 99% of the best drops to officers/close friends of the council and occasionally tossing someone else a bone so they can point to that when LC integrity is called into question. Turnover rate starting to increase as people get more and more disenfranchised with how things are run and as the novelty of raiding on a new server is wearing off. Recruitment is increasing to keep the ship afloat. Still using stoneage Ventrilo as the primary means of raid communication instead of upgrading to a vastly superior (and free) modern voip like Discord.

Any BDA want to tell me how close I was? Do I get a prize if I was 100% accurate?

Swish is that you?

[heyokah]

You guys straight up ruined this thread with essays and math and shit about dragon killing points. Fuck you.

[Ravager]

Because you need the failure to learn the encounter. Without the failures you will never win. And saying you are not rewarded for failures is also a lie. If you are not failing you are not pushing yourself hard enough. The reward for trying hard things and failing, repeatedly, is typically the learning you need to do to move higher and get those phat loot rewards. The people who put in the time to learn are carrying those who don't, and should be rewarded for it.
Knowledge is the reward. In life, people don't get punished for learning from someone else's mistakes, so why should they be punished for it here?

Maybe there should be some kind of compensation for initial investment, but you have to draw a line at some point once that has been recouped.

Another interesting point is that Raev brought up and in the context of random drift due to high variability of /random. Although in the long term random processes can work, in the short term they can drift massively. Now imagine that interaction with censoring effects that cut out parts of the distribution, like when people leave guilds or quit EQ or, because they just happened to get all the stuff they need, they stop showing up as much. In other words, yes random is 'flat' in an ideal setting, but it's not systematically flat, and for short periods it can drift. DKP tries (though it also fails I'm sure) to create a distribution that is flat systematically, like each person gets (1 x unit of effort) in order, rather than 1 person gets 10, another person gets 3, another person gets 0, and then over time waiting for that to balance out to flat. Especially problematic when that person who got 10 stops showing up cuz they don't need anything, or maybe just because he got bored of EQ.
I never said it was fair over a short term. You're talking to someone who has been playing this server off and on for over half a decade. I would argue most people who are raiding on a hobby server are in it for the long haul, so they will have good streaks and bad streaks, but it does even out. Further, it would promote more of a stick it out mentality than DKP has to offer. How much guild-hopping is there because people want their loot right now, but when they see what they're up against in terms of DKP, they look for greener pastures?

But again, all these examples are just to say that random has a lot of issues too, and especially so in a system that has the structure of EQ, where people change guilds or leave EQ, loot quality changes with time, some people can get their gear all in one raid while others have to get one piece from each dungeon, the amount of loot per hour can change for a given dungeon, and can be as low as 0 loot per hour, etc. If you convolve a crazy ass function with the flat function of uniform random, you get a crazy ass function in return, not a flat one.
You're right, but my argument is DKP has more issues than /random in terms of fairness of loot distribution. There probably is a third, superior way to both, but nobody is bothered to think of it. They just continue to patch the flawed DKP system when it springs leaks.

And to your point about DKP being about cheating - I'm not sure if you've ever ran a DKP system yourself, but I have, and let me tell you it is super annoying especially at the time on live when we had to remember to take the right logs in the right way during hectic new encounters, copy paste them in the system correctly, fix any errors, deal with adjusting stuff that has been bought, sit around taking bids (our system wasn't DKP it was a custom bidding system). It was just a massive headache and basically any time it was my turn to run it for a raid that was easily 50% of what I did during that raid. Loot upgrades too quickly in progression guilds for this time commitment to develop and run a DKP system just to poach a few extra loots for yourself to be worth it.I was talking about fairness, not cheating. I don't think most people in a DKP guild are deliberately trying to screw anyone over. Most privileged folks aren't, they're just blind to their advantage over others.

[Ravager]

Everyone loves random when it works for them, but as soon as it doesnt work out in their favor, then its the worst thing ever.
Sums it up.

[jcr4990]

Swish is that you?

How fucked up would it be if I was actually Swish this whole time?

[arsenalpow]

How fucked up would it be if I was actually Swish this whole time?

you're a little obsessed, very swishy of you

[Juryiel]

Knowledge is the reward. In life, people don't get punished for learning from someone else's mistakes, so why should they be punished for it here?

Maybe there should be some kind of compensation for initial investment, but you have to draw a line at some point once that has been recouped.

I never said it was fair over a short term. You're talking to someone who has been playing this server off and on for over half a decade. I would argue most people who are raiding on a hobby server are in it for the long haul, so they will have good streaks and bad streaks, but it does even out. Further, it would promote more of a stick it out mentality than DKP has to offer. How much guild-hopping is there because people want their loot right now, but when they see what they're up against in terms of DKP, they look for greener pastures?
You're right, but my argument is DKP has more issues than /random in terms of fairness of loot distribution. There probably is a third, superior way to both, but nobody is bothered to think of it. They just continue to patch the flawed DKP system when it springs leaks.
I was talking about fairness, not cheating. I don't think most people in a DKP guild are deliberately trying to screw anyone over. Most privileged folks aren't, they're just blind to their advantage over others.

Real life has a wide assortment of reward structures including often rewarding people who pioneer things more so than those who follow. And sure, there should be a limit, and with many DKP systems there often is, and is set however each guild thinks is appropriate.

As far as the unevenness, sure, each person who joins can wait a year to get to that 'attendance % of loot' with /random if they want. I would still prefer to force it to immediately be as close as possible. And the short term unevenness is itself terrible even if it did even out eventually - imagine the instability of having to /random for how much you will be paid based on your salary. In the long term it would even out, but at any given time you might be very screwed or very lucky. Most people would prefer the certainty of a steady middle number than the highs and lows that /random brings.

Generally I don't think we disagree. I think finding the perfect loot system is basically impossible or at least very difficult. It's not that people haven't bothered, a lot of thought goes into these systems and how each guild implements their own instance. It's just not easy to balance, and not easy to decide what to reward.

But I'm not sure I buy your assertion that DKP is worse than random. You're welcome to demonstrate it if you care to by applying it to the actual structure of EQ and people's behavior, but I bet you'll find /random to be terrible in the more realistic non-ideal case, and DKP to be imperfect but OK when you do.

[Ahldagor]

You guys straight up ruined this thread with essays and math and shit about dragon killing points. Fuck you.

[Red_Messiah]

what's this thread actually about?

[kaev]

Lately it's mostly been about watching people get rustled over Ravager's defense of /ran. Or were you looking for an agenda?

[Ahldagor]

what's this thread actually about?

Nobody.

Circe demands certain thing9s, so what's a good crew to do?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

what's this thread actually about?

Easy:
http://i.imgur.com/wYd0eow.jpg

[Daldaen]

Did some raids last night at a designated time, got some Luclin pixels. 10/10 would raid Luclin again.

Also did some Kael raids, a pal warrior got KT boots, gloves, Vindi and Statue BPs. Many pixels acquired, was a good night.

[maskedmelon]

I read about soy last night and thought about the need for another great flood.

[Ravager]

As far as the unevenness, sure, each person who joins can wait a year to get to that 'attendance % of loot' with /random if they want. I would still prefer to force it to immediately be as close as possible. And the short term unevenness is itself terrible even if it did even out eventually - imagine the instability of having to /random for how much you will be paid based on your salary. In the long term it would even out, but at any given time you might be very screwed or very lucky. Most people would prefer the certainty of a steady middle number than the highs and lows that /random brings.
I'd compare it more to a slot machine than to a job. There's no guarantee that a certain piece of loot will ever drop for the life of the server for anyone, let alone guild X if the RNG gods don't favor you. A great part of the problem is due to trying to pay everyone with slot machine payoffs; payoffs that can't be divided evenly.

Of course maybe the job analogy does work in that the people running things still have to pay their employees, even if they themselves take a loss on the job. That is, they pay them if they expect anyone to keep working for them.

Generally I don't think we disagree. I think finding the perfect loot system is basically impossible or at least very difficult. It's not that people haven't bothered, a lot of thought goes into these systems and how each guild implements their own instance. It's just not easy to balance, and not easy to decide what to reward.

But I'm not sure I buy your assertion that DKP is worse than random. You're welcome to demonstrate it if you care to by applying it to the actual structure of EQ and people's behavior, but I bet you'll find /random to be terrible in the more realistic non-ideal case, and DKP to be imperfect but OK when you do.Well, it'll remain a matter of philosophy unless raw numbers can be produced showing the outcomes of both systems over, say, a year's time, but the cost of gathering that information in terms of time and effort is more than I want to pay, and you probably don't care to pay it either.

[khysanth]

http://i.imgur.com/IrQUcJn.jpg

64

[Nibblewitz]

Do they not have memes on Phinny? Seems kinda sad.

[Raev]

I'd compare it more to a slot machine than to a job. There's no guarantee that a certain piece of loot will ever drop for the life of the server for anyone, let alone guild X if the RNG gods don't favor you. A great part of the problem is due to trying to pay everyone with slot machine payoffs; payoffs that can't be divided evenly.

So if you agree that variance is bad, why increase it?

[jcr4990]

Every time I read Ravager's post rambling on about how /random is a legitimate loot system for raiding I have this reaction

http://i.imgur.com/3c5kXg5.gif

[Juryiel]

Well, it'll remain a matter of philosophy unless raw numbers can be produced showing the outcomes of both systems over, say, a year's time, but the cost of gathering that information in terms of time and effort is more than I want to pay, and you probably don't care to pay it either.

Yeah not gonna lie, I would totally spend a weekend or two writing up this analysis if a bunch of guilds dumped their multi-year DKP database and well-kept attendance and roster and turnover records on me, so long as I didn't need to do any data cleaning at all :P A man can dream though, a man can dream.

[Raev]

But then, maybe he just has emotional scars from BDA's loot council (to get this thread back on track)

[Daldaen]

Random is good if you are an officer who doesn't want to deal with loot QQs.

Because of all the systems, assuming you know the system going into the guild, if you accepted being in a randoming guild, you really can't QQ at the officers about it.

DKP you can complain about the tiers, the restrictions on what class can bid or lackthereof, the minimums, the maximums, if you're in some really dumb system that awards at fixed price, the prices, etc.

Loot Council you always will have QQ about something.

Random is bad other than that. Its a great starting point for a guild, until they start raiding more and the people who contribute separate themselves out from the pack, at which point you move to a better loot distribution system that values contribution/attendance/not sucking.

[snead]

the real problem with /random that i don't believe is addressed in this thread is people will simply not go to raids/mobs that don't have loot for them and decrease your numbers. Mob X doesn't drop any shaman loot? guess it's not going to be getting slowed this raid.

[Bruno]

the real problem with /random that i don't believe is addressed in this thread is people will simply not go to raids/mobs that don't have loot for them and decrease your numbers. Mob X doesn't drop any shaman loot? guess it's not going to be getting slowed this raid.

https://i.imgur.com/leIEiaW.gif

[Ravager]

So if you agree that variance is bad, why increase it?
Did I say it was bad? It's the reason people come back to this game, the same as a slot machine. If a slot machine just paid off 99 cents to every dollar you put in on every pull, who would play them? In fact, somewhere in one of my posts back a few pages I said /random would do more to keep people attending than DKP.

Anyway, this whole talk started because I said minimum DKP bids or the loot rots was a stupid way of doing things and abusive to the members who spent their time getting that loot to drop and that it should go to /random before it rots. I stand by that.

[jcr4990]

the real problem with /random that i don't believe is addressed in this thread is people will simply not go to raids/mobs that don't have loot for them and decrease your numbers. Mob X doesn't drop any shaman loot? guess it's not going to be getting slowed this raid.

Can confirm I wouldn't show up for anything that didn't drop loot I wanted if my guild was strictly /random

Yet another reason (among the many) that random is retarded

[maskedmelon]

Can confirm I wouldn't show up for anything that didn't drop loot I wanted if my guild was strictly /random

Yet another reason (among the many) that random is retarded

can confirm, loot whore ^





^.~

[Meep]

"I deserve this the most" - EQ101

[Nibblewitz]

"I didn't think I would get caught" - Loot Whore

[skarlorn]

"I didn't think I would get caught" - Loot Whore

http://i.imgur.com/ENHCa3H.jpg

[Danth]

Can confirm I wouldn't show up for anything that didn't drop loot I wanted if my guild was strictly /random

Your idea of a good time is spending your free time being coerced into doing something you don't actually want to do for its own sake? Each to their own, but I find that mindset baffling. I suspect you will too when you look back on things years later.

Danth

[jcr4990]

Your idea of a good time is spending your free time being coerced into doing something you don't actually want to do for its own sake? Each to their own, but I find that mindset baffling. I suspect you will too when you look back on things years later.

Danth

I play EQ to advance my character. That's the ultimate point of the entire game whether you like it or not. At this point the only meaningful way to advance my characters is through raid loot. The vast majority of reputable raid guilds use DKP as their method of loot distribution. This gives incentives for everyone to show up to raids they don't particularly need so they can earn points to spend on stuff they do need in other raids. This is how EQ raiding has been for 17 years. Is this somehow news to anyone?

[jcr4990]

I play EQ to advance my character. That's the ultimate point of the entire game whether you like it or not. At this point the only meaningful way to advance my characters is through raid loot. The vast majority of reputable raid guilds use DKP as their method of loot distribution. This gives incentives for everyone to show up to raids they don't particularly need so they can earn points to spend on stuff they do need in other raids. This is how EQ raiding has been for 17 years. Is this somehow news to anyone?

Fuck not being able to edit in RNF. To further add on to this point. Even if you aren't in a DKP guild. Say a Loot Council guild. People STILL feel obligated to show up to shit they don't need anything from so they can earn invisible "Loot Council Favor" points on future raids where they do need things. You're lying through your fucking teeth if you don't think this is happening.

[arsenalpow]

not sure what world you live in where people are only motivated by things that solely benefit only them, sounds like a dark place

[jcr4990]

not sure what world you live in where people are only motivated by things that solely benefit only them, sounds like a dark place

You realize how ironic this statement is coming from the leader of the shadow council with more loot than anyone else in his guild right? I'd talk like that too if I lead a loot council guild and could just snipe whatever loot I wanted :P

[jcr4990]

Also I'm playing a video game. What I try to do when playing video games is maximize the fun I'm having whilst playing them. Again the entire point of playing video games. I don't play video games for charity or to help save the world.

[arsenalpow]

You realize how ironic this statement is coming from the leader of the shadow council with more loot than anyone else in his guild right? I'd talk like that too if I lead a loot council guild and could just snipe whatever loot I wanted :P

oh ya? I have one single piece of luclin loot

[skarlorn]

i bet its the best

bitch

[Red_Messiah]

BDA Ventrilo recording (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) - worth a look

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

1 of my high skool friends threw a fit to his guild when a guildy wouldnt stop bidding in a dkp bidding war cuz it was his 16th birthday

that's why ffa bidding in /gu is teh best.

[Raev]

oh ya? I have one single piece of luclin loot

saving up for POP I see

[burkemi5]

Fuck not being able to edit in RNF. To further add on to this point. Even if you aren't in a DKP guild. Say a Loot Council guild. People STILL feel obligated to show up to shit they don't need anything from so they can earn invisible "Loot Council Favor" points on future raids where they do need things. You're lying through your fucking teeth if you don't think this is happening.

Not only do you need to maintain a "loot council favor" presence, you better be cozying up to Dear Leader Chest, volunteering to do his laundry, PL his alts, being on and cracking the best jokes in /gu and VoIP 24/7, etc. That's the real DKP in the "casual" guilds.

[jcr4990]

Not only do you need to maintain a "loot council favor" presence, you better be cozying up to Dear Leader Chest, volunteering to do his laundry, PL his alts, being on and cracking the best jokes in /gu and VoIP 24/7, etc. That's the real DKP in the "casual" guilds.

Don't know who you are. But you get it. Also don't disagree with leadership or voice concerns and make waves. You'll get silently lootbanned from anything worthwhile for months.

[bigbard1]

Spent the night linking chaturbate to guild and good times were had. EoE recruiting.

[booter]

yea i want to mutually masturbate with a bunch of eq players on discord voice chat, sounds great fun

[Meep]

yea i want to mutually masturbate with a bunch of eq players on discord voice chat, sounds great fun

doesnt that sum up their circlejerk nicely? you want pixels you better fap

[burkemi5]

Don't know who you are. But you get it. Also don't disagree with leadership or voice concerns and make waves. You'll get silently lootbanned from anything worthwhile for months.

I've never been in BDA, but I've been in other LC guilds on p99. It was all the same as you described it. Unless you were in the inner circle/ clique/ whatever you want to call it, you would be relegated to rolling on rots with other plebs. And the only way to get into that inner circle is to do what I described-- be on 24/7, constantly cozying up to Dear Leader Guild Master/ Officer, sit on VoIP all the time, etc etc etc. It was fucking stupid. I don't mind chatting to some elf friends on voip, but I don't want to feel like it's a competition or that I need to check in every night.

I raid with a loot factor guild now, and some weeks I'll chat with my e-friends on offnights, catch up, etc. Some weeks I'll only show up to raids right at raid time and don't say a word. At the end of the day, I still get loot based upon my attendance, not by some arbitrarily defined elf-council. And you're a fucking liar if you think all that other BS (grouping with occifers, chatting online, etc) doesn't play a factor.

[bigbard1]

I've never been in BDA, but I've been in other LC guilds on p99. It was all the same as you described it. Unless you were in the inner circle/ clique/ whatever you want to call it, you would be relegated to rolling on rots with other plebs. And the only way to get into that inner circle is to do what I described-- be on 24/7, constantly cozying up to Dear Leader Guild Master/ Officer, sit on VoIP all the time, etc etc etc. It was fucking stupid. I don't mind chatting to some elf friends on voip, but I don't want to feel like it's a competition or that I need to check in every night.

I raid with a loot factor guild now, and some weeks I'll chat with my e-friends on offnights, catch up, etc. Some weeks I'll only show up to raids right at raid time and don't say a word. At the end of the day, I still get loot based upon my attendance, not by some arbitrarily defined elf-council. And you're a fucking liar if you think all that other BS (grouping with occifers, chatting online, etc) doesn't play a factor.

Also raiding with a leader who clearly has autism sounds awful (Chest)

[bigbard1]

http://i.imgur.com/WQ3Ma8B.jpg

Doxxed Chest

[heyokah]

I guess the end is nigh. I agree with moardots. Never been in a LC guild before BDA on phinny. I personally did not like this system. Is it fair? Probably most of the time. Do people get screwed and butthurt on BiS items? Yeah. The point is that people will get butthurt no matter what you do. With some currency based system though, at least you know where you stand. LC just felt grimy. Its absolutely as described. Shadow council members are human, they are going to have favorites, its just a fact. This causes people to suck the dicks(or vaginas) of the LC members to gain favor with the glorious leaders. LC wasnt the only reason i stopped logging in. It was a factor though. The main reason was it was just boring as fuck. I wondered why i wasnt doing something else that wasnt so god damn tedious.

[derpcake]

the real problem with /random that i don't believe is addressed in this thread is people will simply not go to raids/mobs that don't have loot for them and decrease your numbers. Mob X doesn't drop any shaman loot? guess it's not going to be getting slowed this raid.

We ran pure DKP as a serverwide top5 guild, it worked fine, obviously.

The highest attendance people get more loot, and people naturally bid more on items of great value to their class.

We had /random raids for alts in which no DKP was given, we also did many beta tests which gave out DKP but no loot or flags obviously ..

The people that didn't show up for the /random raids or the beta raids were the worst guild members. Sure, helping Tim's 3rd alt get his epic is pretty boring, but maybe that epic will be used to res us after a raid wipe .. or we can call on that cleric to help beat a raid when attendance is low..

It was always very gratifying to ensure people that did not participate in these events didn't make it into the instances for server(wide) first kills.

"oh I'm sorry, but we need this specific setup", never needed salt on my crackers.

[derpcake]

Basically its a really easy way to test people.

When they don't show up on Thursday, maybe they had something to do, and it wasn't related to the raid in question being very hard and chances of success low.

If people are open about "nothing in it for me, I ain't coming", it really made the screening a lot easier :)

[Man0warr]

Don't know who you are. But you get it. Also don't disagree with leadership or voice concerns and make waves. You'll get silently lootbanned from anything worthwhile for months.

I disagree with BDA leadership all the time and I've got all the loot.

[Man0warr]

I've never been in BDA, but I've been in other LC guilds on p99. It was all the same as you described it. Unless you were in the inner circle/ clique/ whatever you want to call it, you would be relegated to rolling on rots with other plebs. And the only way to get into that inner circle is to do what I described-- be on 24/7, constantly cozying up to Dear Leader Guild Master/ Officer, sit on VoIP all the time, etc etc etc. It was fucking stupid. I don't mind chatting to some elf friends on voip, but I don't want to feel like it's a competition or that I need to check in every night.


I mean, most people in BDA log in to raid after work 3-4 times a week, then do other shit the rest of the week. You know, real lives. You raid and stay in BDA people you like the people in it, and like hanging out with them in and out of Everquest. If you don't like the people, and raiding is just a job for you, then there are numerous impersonal mercenary guilds you can join on both Phinny and P99.

On Phinny because of instancing, there is so much loot it really just doesn't matter what kind of system you use. Outside of like Aten Ha Ra neck (only 1 per week) everyone is going to get the loot they want before the next expansion in a guild of ~80-90 active raiders.

[skarlorn]

I disagree with BDA leadership all the time and I've got all the loot.

but you are literally RL friends with chest and have been for years you fucking moron

get with the picture

[CheeseRoll]

On Phinny because of instancing, there is so much loot it really just doesn't matter...

Might as well just put a vending machine in game than.

:D

[booter]

gotta say this thread is feeling real stale. Going to stay away. Maybe BDA will do something or have some other implosion by pg 600.

best of luck to ya (not)

:o

[Man0warr]

but you are literally RL friends with chest and have been for years you fucking moron

get with the picture

What's your point? I'm just saying there are no such thing as "loot bans". If you are angry enough about how BDA leadership does something, then you have probably already left the guild. If you show up to raids regularly, you are going to get loot.

Trollolol wasn't loot banned, he's just an idiot. The raid leaders decided to stack the warriors and clerics early on - whether it turned out to be a good decision is another matter - and Vulak's robe was very clearly advertised as going to clerics the first few times. Troll knew this, and still hoarded his nonexistant "loot council favors" for the first Vulak robe - and yet still somehow was disappointed.

[Man0warr]

Might as well just put a vending machine in game than.

:D

It's like being in the most successful P99 guild, killing every boss that spawns worth killing each week. Except we only have 80 mouths to feed instead of hundreds, since we can do the raids when we choose.

[skarlorn]

What's your point?

I understand it can be hard to understand. I'll hold your hand through this painful process. I have gone ahead and quoted relevant posts from the past three pages which you have failed to comprehend.


I've never been in BDA, but I've been in other LC guilds on p99. It was all the same as you described it. Unless you were in the inner circle/ clique/ whatever you want to call it, you would be relegated to rolling on rots with other plebs. And the only way to get into that inner circle is to do what I described-- be on 24/7, constantly cozying up to Dear Leader Guild Master/ Officer, sit on VoIP all the time, etc etc etc.

LC just felt grimy. Its absolutely as described. Shadow council members are human, they are going to have favorites, its just a fact. This causes people to suck the dicks(or vaginas) of the LC members to gain favor with the glorious leaders.w

I disagree with BDA leadership all the time and I've got all the loot.

but you are literally RL friends with chest and have been for years you fucking moron

get with the picture

What's your point?

Not only do you need to maintain a "loot council favor" presence, you better be cozying up to Dear Leader Chest, volunteering to do his laundry, PL his alts, being on and cracking the best jokes in /gu and VoIP 24/7, etc. That's the real DKP in the "casual" guilds.

you get it. Also don't disagree with leadership or voice concerns and make waves. You'll get silently lootbanned from anything worthwhile for months.

(Notice the word "Also." Also is an adverb defined as "in addition; too." The first clause of jcr's quote here was sin reference to the need to be buddies with the Shadow Elf Council "in addition" to not disagreeing with leadership.)

I disagree with BDA leadership all the time and I've got all the loot.


but you are literally RL friends with chest

Amazingly, I've managed to restate my argument without writing the thesis. (A thesis is the point of the argument).

[Mead]

I disagree with BDA leadership all the time and I've got all the loot.

but you are literally RL friends with chest and have been for years you fucking moron

get with the picture

What's your point?

http://i.imgur.com/NwUejtx.gif

[jcr4990]

If you don't like the people, and raiding is just a job for you, then there are numerous impersonal mercenary guilds you can join on both Phinny and P99.

This particular Chest narrative that he has all of BDA believing has always struck me as odd. I can't even count the number of times I've heard this line or very similar lines repeated in guild chat or vent during my time in BDA. Apparently every guild more successful than BDA on Phinny or P99 is just a "mercenary guild" that has no friendships. Quite the claim and one that I have the personal experience to say is complete and utter horseshit. I don't know how he can manage to convince so many people of pure bullshit like that. It's baffling really. BDA was no more friendly to me at it's best day than OGC has been so far. Shit man I have high ranking officers going out of their way repeatedly to help me gear/epic my ALT even when I was still an app. Do you know how many apps in BDA get shit on for asking for epic help before they make member? I remember it happening all the time. How can you not see the hypocrisy? Just been drinking the BDA koolaid for too long?

Tofu I never had any particular issues with you really. I didn't even mind listening to you ramble on in vent most of the time. But I don't think even you would deny that a large portion of BDA dislikes you. You're extremely close friends with Chest and I've heard Chest openly admit to being tired of sticking up for you to everyone. That being the case I find it strange that you'd use the fact that you're getting all this loot as proof the loot council isn't biased. I'd say the exact opposite. You're one of the guildleaders closest pals so you get loot regardless of tons of ppl not liking you and constantly disagreeing with leadership.

[arsenalpow]

Tofu and I are extremely close friends? That's news to me. There's people in guild I game with outside of EQ (Pullyn) or people I go to Vegas with (Anichek) or people I go to bars with (Blaza) or people I go to posh restaurants with (Flickken) but I knew Tofu through MTG tournies and we weren't close. We're pals now though from so many years of EQ and he's definitely BDA ride or die, and he's a great asset to the guild. He deserves every piece of loot he gets.

Troll you seem to be confusing getting loot with people being friendly. You're so happy to get pixels for low bids in OGC, or someone helped your alt get an epic. Friendliness for you is directly tied to how many pixels your characters are receiving. Maybe you should step back and figure out how being friendly actually works.

[Man0warr]

This particular Chest narrative that he has all of BDA believing has always struck me as odd. I can't even count the number of times I've heard this line or very similar lines repeated in guild chat or vent during my time in BDA. Apparently every guild more successful than BDA on Phinny or P99 is just a "mercenary guild" that has no friendships. Quite the claim and one that I have the personal experience to say is complete and utter horseshit. I don't know how he can manage to convince so many people of pure bullshit like that. It's baffling really. BDA was no more friendly to me at it's best day than OGC has been so far. Shit man I have high ranking officers going out of their way repeatedly to help me gear/epic my ALT even when I was still an app. Do you know how many apps in BDA get shit on for asking for epic help before they make member? I remember it happening all the time. How can you not see the hypocrisy? Just been drinking the BDA koolaid for too long?

I've been in tons of hardcore top end guilds in EQ, WoW, EQ2, etc where for years people literally logged in for raids to collect DKP, no one was allowed to talk in voice chat except the leaders, and then people logged off afterwards. Otherwise people only logged in to farm materials required for consumables for said raids. It was a business, whose sole purpose was obtaining loot and getting server/world firsts - almost no socialization. Super high turnover rate of both applicants and membership.

Not all guilds were like that at the top, but a lot of the successful ones were.


Tofu I never had any particular issues with you really. I didn't even mind listening to you ramble on in vent most of the time. But I don't think even you would deny that a large portion of BDA dislikes you. You're extremely close friends with Chest and I've heard Chest openly admit to being tired of sticking up for you to everyone. That being the case I find it strange that you'd use the fact that you're getting all this loot as proof the loot council isn't biased. I'd say the exact opposite. You're one of the guildleaders closest pals so you get loot regardless of tons of ppl not liking you and constantly disagreeing with leadership.

I get loot because I have nearly 100% raid attendance, play a class with a lot of loot that no one else goes in for, and I'm smart about when and what I ask for. That's it. The "get all the loot" comment was a joke. Whatever loot system we used I'd be getting equivalent amount of loot - but it's Phinny so it really doesn't matter.

Like Chest said, we are more acquaintances than anything before EQ, and don't really interact outside of it since we both pretty much quit playing MTG seriously and live on opposite sides of a very large state.

[bigbard1]

It's like being in the most successful P99 guild, killing every boss that spawns worth killing each week. Except we only have 80 mouths to feed instead of hundreds, since we can do the raids when we choose.

Ur a cuck

[bigbard1]

I've been in tons of hardcore top end guilds in EQ, WoW, EQ2, etc where for years people literally logged in for raids to collect DKP, no one was allowed to talk in voice chat except the leaders, and then people logged off afterwards. Otherwise people only logged in to farm materials required for consumables for said raids. It was a business, whose sole purpose was obtaining loot and getting server/world firsts - almost no socialization. Super high turnover rate of both applicants and membership.

Not all guilds were like that at the top, but a lot of the successful ones were.



I get loot because I have nearly 100% raid attendance, play a class with a lot of loot that no one else goes in for, and I'm smart about when and what I ask for. That's it. The "get all the loot" comment was a joke. Whatever loot system we used I'd be getting equivalent amount of loot - but it's Phinny so it really doesn't matter.

Like Chest said, we are more acquaintances than anything before EQ, and don't really interact outside of it since we both pretty much quit playing MTG seriously and live on opposite sides of a very large state.

I have a hard time either of you would be successful Magic players since you are both pretty much idiots.

[Daldaen]

Can't wait for PoP and eventually GoD raids.

They better not release GoD and OoW together because of a few casual QQers about how GoD wasn't a good expansion for them. They can fuck right off.

WTB GoD at level 65 plz.

[Man0warr]

I have a hard time either of you would be successful Magic players since you are both pretty much idiots.

Better than average - qualified for a couple Pro Tours a decade or more ago and did well in some large state tournaments, but still just a hobby. Once me and the people I played and traveled with got out of college and started jobs and families it just wasn't a great way to spend a weekend.

[arsenalpow]

Better than average - qualified for a couple Pro Tours a decade or more ago and did well in some large state tournaments, but still just a hobby. Once me and the people I played and traveled with got out of college and started jobs and families it just wasn't a great way to spend a weekend.

Couple ptq top 4s and a state championship. I played with friends until all those friends moved away, without the comraderie magic isn't fun.

[bigbard1]

Better than average - qualified for a couple Pro Tours a decade or more ago and did well in some large state tournaments, but still just a hobby. Once me and the people I played and traveled with got out of college and started jobs and families it just wasn't a great way to spend a weekend.

Same thing happened to me actually. I just lost interest within the last year or so. Moved to another city.

[Valakut]

Couple ptq top 4s and a state championship. I played with friends until all those friends moved away, without the comraderie magic isn't fun.

he's beginning to believe

[booter]

if MTG can bring bigbard tofu and chest together, what CANT it do

[bigbard1]

if MTG can bring bigbard tofu and chest together, what CANT it do

[snead]

We ran pure DKP as a serverwide top5 guild, it worked fine, obviously.

The highest attendance people get more loot, and people naturally bid more on items of great value to their class.

We had /random raids for alts in which no DKP was given, we also did many beta tests which gave out DKP but no loot or flags obviously ..

The people that didn't show up for the /random raids or the beta raids were the worst guild members. Sure, helping Tim's 3rd alt get his epic is pretty boring, but maybe that epic will be used to res us after a raid wipe .. or we can call on that cleric to help beat a raid when attendance is low..

It was always very gratifying to ensure people that did not participate in these events didn't make it into the instances for server(wide) first kills.

"oh I'm sorry, but we need this specific setup", never needed salt on my crackers.

I've been in tons of hardcore top end guilds in EQ, WoW, EQ2, etc where for years people literally logged in for raids to collect DKP, no one was allowed to talk in voice chat except the leaders, and then people logged off afterwards. Otherwise people only logged in to farm materials required for consumables for said raids. It was a business, whose sole purpose was obtaining loot and getting server/world firsts - almost no socialization. Super high turnover rate of both applicants and membership.

Not all guilds were like that at the top, but a lot of the successful ones were.



I get loot because I have nearly 100% raid attendance, play a class with a lot of loot that no one else goes in for, and I'm smart about when and what I ask for. That's it. The "get all the loot" comment was a joke. Whatever loot system we used I'd be getting equivalent amount of loot - but it's Phinny so it really doesn't matter.

Like Chest said, we are more acquaintances than anything before EQ, and don't really interact outside of it since we both pretty much quit playing MTG seriously and live on opposite sides of a very large state.

[skarlorn]

so we are supposed to take the word of the Elf Leader of a Corrupt Council and his Very Own RL Contact that the Elf Hegemony isn't playing favorites to funnel loot to Manowarr?

as opposed to all the hundreds of people who have quit BDA and say the truth?

[jcr4990]

Tofu and I are extremely close friends? That's news to me. There's people in guild I game with outside of EQ (Pullyn) or people I go to Vegas with (Anichek) or people I go to bars with (Blaza) or people I go to posh restaurants with (Flickken) but I knew Tofu through MTG tournies and we weren't close. We're pals now though from so many years of EQ and he's definitely BDA ride or die, and he's a great asset to the guild. He deserves every piece of loot he gets.

Troll you seem to be confusing getting loot with people being friendly. You're so happy to get pixels for low bids in OGC, or someone helped your alt get an epic. Friendliness for you is directly tied to how many pixels your characters are receiving. Maybe you should step back and figure out how being friendly actually works.

Enjoying advancing your character makes you a bad person

Helping your friends advance their characters makes u not real friends

Got it

[Alenon]

so we are supposed to take the word of the Elf Leader of a Corrupt Council and his Very Own RL Contact that the Elf Hegemony isn't playing favorites to funnel loot to Manowarr?

as opposed to all the hundreds of people who have quit BDA and say the truth?

I came from awakened to phinny and bda, have roughly 50% raid attendance, dont know any of the loot council aside from after I app'd, and most of my gear is vt/ssra. In fact i find it quite odd i hardly ever see any of the loot council ever putting in for things :P

[jcr4990]

I totally get it now guys. The true way to be friends is to give nothing but 4 pieces of scrap loot to your friends with 90%+ raid attendance for 4 months. If u don't do that ur not real friends. Just mercenaries.

[booter]

I came from awakened to phinny and bda, have roughly 50% raid attendance, dont know any of the loot council aside from after I app'd, and most of my gear is vt/ssra. In fact i find it quite odd i hardly ever see any of the loot council ever putting in for things :P

shhhhhh this isn't the prevailing narrative of the salty thread tho

[Nibblewitz]

Elf Hegemony

Wait, are we still talking about BDA?

[arsenalpow]

http://i.imgur.com/TSDsumG.jpg

meager scraps

[Ella`Ella]

http://i.imgur.com/TSDsumG.jpg

meager scraps

Gonna need to know their Join date.

[Erati]

what the hell are those weird items from the "Aaryonar" raid?

Avatar of War with Grey Dusted Wraps?

[arsenalpow]

what the hell are those weird items from the "Aaryonar" raid?

Avatar of War with Grey Dusted Wraps?

someone was lazy and didn't list the correct boss on a few, they're off whatever they actually drop off of

[arsenalpow]

Gonna need to know their Join date.

joined august 2016, actively started raiding in october when he hit 60

[Ella`Ella]

What era is phinny in now?

[arsenalpow]

What era is phinny in now?

Luclin dropped late September? I think?

[skarlorn]

when will bda call it quits on phinny? after poP?

[arsenalpow]

when will bda call it quits on phinny? after poP?

No idea, we'll stop playing when it's not fun anymore. Trollolol says GoD/OoW is actually good though.

[Kevynne]

qhy hasnt this thread died

[jcr4990]

No idea, we'll stop playing when it's not fun anymore. Trollolol says GoD/OoW is actually good though.

OoW is pretty much tied with PoP for fav expansion in my book fo sho

[Raev]

qhy hasnt this thread died

Because this thread is the noble battleground of ideas: on the one hand we have the staunch cult of BDA who believe that they are the most effective guild on the server and anyone who doesn't play their way, and on the other hand we have reality as meted out by the denizens of RNF.

BDA cannot give in; they have spent too much time building this glowing self image. And reality is famously persistent.

[Raev]

*anyone who doesn't play their way sucks, god

[TheDuck]

it's time for most of you to just grow up.

[arsenalpow]

Because this thread is the noble battleground of ideas: on the one hand we have the staunch cult of BDA who believe that they are the most effective guild on the server and anyone who doesn't play their way, and on the other hand we have reality as meted out by the denizens of RNF.

BDA cannot give in; they have spent too much time building this glowing self image. And reality is famously persistent.

I don't think anyone is saying anything close to that.

[skarlorn]

This thread is still a thing cause bda is/was the last large guild who could post freely in RNF. they are the ones keeping it alive now, and they do just about a good a job as always.

[Red_Messiah]

This thread is still a thing cause bda is/was the last large guild who could post freely in RNF. they are the ones keeping it alive now, and they do just about a good a job as always.

http://i.imgur.com/bNNTYUe.jpg

[maskedmelon]

i will be happy when this year is finally over and I can fucking sleep.

[kaev]

Because this thread is the noble battleground of ideas: on the one hand we have the staunch cult of BDA who believe that they are the most effective guild on the server and anyone who doesn't play their way, and on the other hand we have reality as meted out by the denizens of RNF.

BDA cannot give in; they have spent too much time building this glowing self image. And reality is famously persistent.

This is why I love RnF, the gift that keeps on giving.

[AzzarTheGod]

it's time for most of you to just grow up.

[AzzarTheGod]

No idea, we'll stop playing when it's not fun anymore. Trollolol says GoD/OoW is actually good though.

It is good. You will like the progression system of GoD (since you are uber buffed on Phinigel, it will actually be fun) and OOW is a blast.

[AzzarTheGod]

gay

pixel rnf isnt even real rnf. ive never read it, ever

what page is the raps on? or thread?

did I miss new raps? help ya man out

[Red_Messiah]

No idea, we'll stop playing when it's not fun anymore. Trollolol says GoD/OoW is actually good though.

Read that as "we'll be straight back when p99 launches a new server"

See you there.

[jcr4990]

Read that as "we'll be straight back when p99 launches a new server"

See you there.

I sure as fuck won't be there. Only way there's a chance of that is if Rogean or somebody comes out and says they're going to make some nonclassic changes for the new server in the interest of making the endgame raidscene not complete dogshit. I'd estimate the chances of that happening at roughly 0.00001% so. I guess there's a chance?

Even then I have a hard time being excited about a classic-velious server anymore. I've gotten a taste of Luclin and PoP's around the corner and going back to permanent velious sounds fucking awful.

[Meep]

I'm surprised all the Phinny nerds aren't interested in TAK Project or something like that.

[jcr4990]

I'm surprised all the Phinny nerds aren't interested in TAK Project or something like that.

I tried it briefly. I couldn't deal with the shitty client they use. Some things are better left in 1999

[AzzarTheGod]

fuck that bitch cuz im still in the zone, (OHHHHHHHHHHHH)


im at the ballpark while you're sitting at home, (DAMN SON NERDS SITTING INSIDE 24/7)


click clack while im gripping the chrome, (WHAT GUNS I DONT SEE ANY GUNS)


posts go slam-bam to the 4-eyed nose-scrunchers dome, (LOL AVERAGE BLUE PLAYER)




imma stop there before I body the thread. they don't want to have to loop the beat.

cool me off brehs

[bigbard1]

I heard discord came out last year in October. How is that server?

[Spyder73]

fuck that bitch cuz im still in the zone, (OHHHHHHHHHHHH)


im at the ballpark while you're sitting at home, (DAMN SON NERDS SITTING INSIDE 24/7)


click clack while im gripping the chrome, (WHAT GUNS I DONT SEE ANY GUNS)


posts go slam-bam to the 4-eyed nose-scrunchers dome, (LOL AVERAGE BLUE PLAYER)




imma stop there before I body the thread. they don't want to have to loop the beat.

cool me off brehs

Naw brah - keep spitting that white hot lava all over these turds


Chest sucks dick nearly every day (OHHHHH)
Him and Trollolololol get super gay(AHHHHHH)
That’s because when Troll joined BDA (OHHHHH)
Chest said he needed to get his d!ck out the way (TRANNNNNNNY POWWERR)

[bigbard1]

Naw brah - keep spitting that white hot lava all over these turds


Chest sucks dick nearly every day (OHHHHH)
Him and Trollolololol get super gay(AHHHHHH)
That’s because when Troll joined BDA (OHHHHH)
Chest said he needed to get his d!ck out the way (TRANNNNNNNY POWWERR)


What a weird post

[Meep]

Naw brah - keep spitting that white hot lava all over these turds


Chest sucks dick nearly every day (OHHHHH)
Him and Trollolololol get super gay(AHHHHHH)
That’s because when Troll joined BDA (OHHHHH)
Chest said he needed to get his d!ck out the way (TRANNNNNNNY POWWERR) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgPFsIiwdHg)


OP at work (youtube)

[skarlorn]

me reading azzar's rap: :p

me reading spyder's rap: :o

hope this thoughtful critique helps

[eadric]

Spyder73 is one of the least interesting people I've ever encountered.

[arsenalpow]

Spyder73 is one of the least interesting people I've ever encountered.

Hi pal

[khysanth]

http://i.imgur.com/IrQUcJn.jpg

63

[eadric]

Hi pal

Yo. Do you know why Kysanth is repeatedly posting that picture? I don't get it.

[bigbard1]

Yo. Do you know why Kysanth is repeatedly posting that picture? I don't get it.

Pretty sure it is a mixture of cuck and autism.

[Nibblewitz]

The better question is why he's using two forum accounts to post here.

[Raev]

Pretty sure it is a mixture of cuck and autism.

I don't understand why after 100 unfunny 'cuck' posts and 100 unfunny 'autist' posts this somehow was funny.

[Daldaen]

No idea, we'll stop playing when it's not fun anymore. Trollolol says GoD/OoW is actually good though.

EQ stays solid with good raid and Group content through about The Buried Sea.

Secrets of Faydwer is sort of where it becomes way too much of a cookie cutter itemization design and it devalues casual guilds when groupable Crystallos Squires Drop better loot than 1 year old expansion content that still takes 45-54 solid raiders.

Had they not done the hugely mudflated group gear vs raid gear, and done actually interesting itemization rather than standardized focii and all the lame spreadsheet shit they came up with, EQ would be much better off.

Got my VT Key the other day, should be some good fun slaying shades for a few hours next week.

[jcr4990]

EQ stays solid with good raid and Group content through about The Buried Sea.

Secrets of Faydwer is sort of where it becomes way too much of a cookie cutter itemization design and it devalues casual guilds when groupable Crystallos Squires Drop better loot than 1 year old expansion content that still takes 45-54 solid raiders.

Had they not done the hugely mudflated group gear vs raid gear, and done actually interesting itemization rather than standardized focii and all the lame spreadsheet shit they came up with, EQ would be much better off.

Got my VT Key the other day, should be some good fun slaying shades for a few hours next week.

EQ was mostly still a fun game up until Mercenaries came out

Then it was shit

[booter]

some moments i identify as a halfling cleric and other moments i identify as a memeing wizard

[booter]

inb4 also identifying as cuck (my wife cuckolds me)

[Hoozi]

I don't understand why after 100 unfunny 'cuck' posts and 100 unfunny 'autist' posts this somehow was funny.

I often find them funny because I don't think half of them even know what 'cuck' means, yet they continue to use it like they do.

[skarlorn]

I often find them funny because I don't think half of them even know what 'cuck' means, yet they continue to use it like they do.

Ur talking like u are proud of being a cuck

[Hoozi]

Ur talking like u are proud of being a cuck

You aren't very good with reading comprehension, are you.

[bigbard1]

Ur talking like u are proud of being a cuck

[Kushie]

We all know who the cucks are, where's the bulls?

I fancy myself a bull, i'll fuck your girl in front of you.

[Kushie]

RIP DERUBAEL, AMELINDA AND GREENGROCER

LONG LIVE FILBUS

[Computer Man]

We all know who the cucks are, where's the bulls?

I fancy myself a bull, i'll fuck your girl in front of you.

Don't you play a female character in game? So alpha...

[AzzarTheGod]

RIP DERUBAEL, AMELINDA AND GREENGROCER

LONG LIVE FILBUS

Filbus was a saint.

[arsenalpow]

Filbus was a saint.

Skarlon is filbus

[Valakut]

not true

i'm filbus

[CheeseRoll]

Skarlon is filbus

this

[skarlorn]

I'm skarlorn

Thanks for playing

Cheese roll is rivthis AKA cuckthis

[Nibblewitz]

I'm Filbus. Used BDA officer powers to get my halfman warrior some puppet strings.

[skarlorn]

Filbus is the Spartacus of p99 community.

Hope this helps us all be banned en masse

[Kushie]

Tekilya told me I'm filbus. So I'm filbus guys.

[Kushie]

Also filbus is a bull, he fucked my wife while I stared at his balls.

[AzzarTheGod]

I can verify that skarlorn is 100% not Filbus.

[booter]

this is a fun game

i can verify that skarlorn is 100% filbus

[skarlorn]

Booter has a nice pooter ;)

[jcr4990]

Can I be Filbus?

[Kushie]

Filbus is a BDA Hall of Famer. Definitely top 10 BDA of all time.

[Kushie]

Worst BDA of all time?

Raewhen
Vetus
Rebbon

[jcr4990]

Worst BDA of all time?

Raewhen
Vetus
Rebbon

I don't understand all the Vetus hate. Besides his annoying iksar fetish. But a lot of EQ players have a weird obsession with certain races. I always thought Vetus was a decent dude. Is there something I don't know?